#427 – Neil Adams: Judo, Olympics, Winning, Losing, and the Champion Mindset
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The following is a conversation with neil atoms, a legend in the sport of judeo.

He is a world champion, two time olympics over medalist, five time european and champion, and often referred to as the voice of judeo commentating all the major events, world championships and olympic games, highlighting the drama, the the artistry of the sport of judeo, making fans like me feel the biggest wins, the biggest losses, the surprise turns of fortune, the dominance of champions coming to an end and new champions made always speaking from the heart. Now a quick you second mention of sponsor. Check them out in the description is the best way to support this podcast.

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You are a five time european champion, world champion, two time olympic silver medalist. Let's first go to the nineteen eighty olympics. What was your mind? What is your preparation like? What is your strategy leading into the olympics?

That was my first olympic games, so my preparation was little bit different to how IT was the eighty four in the eighty eight olympic games. And i'd kind of done part of the preparation as well for seventy six olympic games. I wasn't quite old enough for those, but I was first reserve.

So one thousand nine hundred and eighty, i'd had four years built up, and I was hungry. And I was one of these Young athletes, and I see them so often. Now that was developing and you know, full of, I want to say, follow myself.

But I was, I was certainly confident of my ability, and I wanted to conquer the world. And i'd had a couple of really tight matches with the current olympic world champion. So I knew that there was possibility that I could get there for the eighty olympics.

So were building up to the eighty olympics was was quite interesting because I was kind of coming through the weights and I was halfway in between the seventy one kilos weight category and the higher weight kilogram seventy eight kilograms. And i've got third place at the seventy nine world championships, the weight below for the whole year at the highway ight category didn't want to lose a contest, so i'd beat everybody in the world. And and then I had to make decision as to whether to drop to the weight below, because I was seated in the weight below was a different seeding.

Then see. And so I decided to drop into the weight below because I was seated in the top four. And as IT happens, I think he was probably the worst decision I made. Well, because, simply because, I mean, I was the only contest that I lost was the final of olympic games in that year.

So you are Young kid, like nineteen at that time, for confidence, vigor. So the decision to cut, wait, how harder was IT free to cut way to the seventy one kg division?

I ve gotta say that I was the hardest because as I was going up, I was, you know, I was seventy three. Then I was seventy four kilos, seventy five. So I was moving through the weight category.

IT wasn't like I was stuck in the middle. And then I dropped the old time to compete. IT was literally going up and wait by a kilo every every month.

And then by the time I came to months or two before the olympics, IT was really hard, fought the european championships at the highway ke category and won that. And so everybody that was in the on the olympic or astro at the european at the olympic games was on my restroom at the european chAmber ships. So was IT a mistake here because I didn't have my diet sorted out.

My nutrition was appalling. And when I know IT wasn't as kind of readily available as IT is now for the nutrition, and I would say that if anything lost me, that final other than the fact that I was fighting somebody was terrific. You know, he was an excEllent, brilliant time late, but definitely didn't help that my nutritious was not very good.

okay. So you want to at your gamma, there's probably a lot of that we could say about that particular match. Maybe let's zoom in. What are your strength and weaknesses judaise in the olympics, you said you having really lost a match, you won the european championship leading into IT. But if you had weak spots, okay, you already said diet, but specifically on the map in terms of judeo.

I think that's none of the fights lasted time going into the final, you know so I I want fairly quickly and every match by upon, you know, way before time.

do you remember how do remember how you want to match?

I want them by throw a couple of throws uh for upon and then H M lock for upon semi final was A A ARM lock against the east german cougar and um yeah I just I was flying through the throws member .

tired .

to shei at my favorite kind of tucker o was a my favorite throws and and then a judici tatami as well to you know which I was a Judith I role against in each german who had beaten before but always had a really tough match but I managed to beat well.

So you had a beautiful exhibition of a japanese type judeo in the first two matches through people. And he also did that. There was a used on bar a person.

great. So going into the final, what are the weaknesses? Ses, going into the final?

Italian, like I say, taking nothing away from him as a great at ley and a brilliant jude man and and left, which was good for me. That was definitely no because I hate to fighting. Left is still do, but at ten while a minute, it's one of those.

And but I think as I went through the contest, we had an eight hour break from the semi final to the final. They took us back to the olympic village, then we had to come back in, and then we had to start a warm up again. You know? So I kind of lost my momentum.

I had to start again. And I never, I didn't. I just didn't. I had a job to get going. I got half through, started to rescue a dying match. You know, I was kind of one step, half a step behind all the way through, so never really got into IT.

So why do you hate fighting lefties and left? These are, we should say, over represented in terms of the hier ranks of judeo. I don't know why that is.

Well, you know, the thing is about a lefty is a lefty will have more opportunity to fight. Right is know, right hand is because I made seventy seventy percent of the population of write handers, thirty percent left. So they get to fight more rightness.

And as it's just a fact, you know, that happens. So the thing that they hate is fighting left against left. They don't like, they don't like IT left against left.

Where's a right hander will go right against right you. But but the opposite is awkward for me because just simply, I like to go onto the sleeve and then I like to dominate the grips. But the actual angle of the of the opponent wasn't what I wanted you. So I had to work on really hard against that.

What happened in the match?

IT was a split decision in the end. And so to lose an olympic final on a split decision is is pretty you is something that still on my mind. And you know, I think that it's a strange one because I can still wake up that one end and four years later at the olympics, because I was silver middle of the olympics four years later as well, and yeah.

still haunts me. Do you sometimes wake up and think like, man, I should have eaten Better like, or maybe like a specific grip. You like, I shouldn't have .

taken that group. I do you know, I mean, the diet side of IT is it's difficult to know to to really admit that in IT that you you went to an olympic games. And the one thing that you really suck that right was one of the most and things now at at world level sport, you know where you've got the nutrition, you know we've got a you would think that most people are got IT sorted, but they still people make a mistakes, and still people there are haven't got IT totally sorted.

And a nurse people, I trave Stevens, who I think doesn't care, he'll just have atrocious nutrition, and he just makes a work. I think the way he spoke about IT is you can't always control nutrition, so is best to get good at having crap nutrition a good way.

And never yeah, may be that's what I .

did exactly. Do remember what you are eating talking about like .

Candy or yeah, I got a sweet. I was I wasn't really I mean, I didn't have a lot of money that particular time. Me though, you know so the diet wasn't taken and uh, you know, good nutritional salads and things like that know I did what I thought was best without, you know, proper advice.

And the crazy thing is, is that I had such good advice as well, you know, when he came to kind of fit a training and things like that was quite a ahead of our time and you know, really had IT nailed as far as the here conditioning was concerned. The juda training as well was was away in advances because I was a good train and I trained more than most I would. I can honestly say that I probably, I got me away with a, you know, about a lot.

Where is your mind for mental preparation going into the olympics? You said you are confident, but is there some preparation aspects behind that confidence?

I think in the early days, I didn't think I was gonna lose. I never thought I was possible to lose. And I think that I went into every contest expecting to win.

So when IT didn't quite go my way, I didn't lose that many contest, you know. So the only ones I lost where in the final of the world champions or in the find of the olympic games. So I didn't lose that money. I never lost the european titles. You know, I had seven uh, goals of european chAmber ships, five seniors to juniors and and I never I never lost the final, you know so I was and then I only lost two on a split decision, you know so I was I didn't lose that many. And and my attitude was that I wasn't gonna lose, and I I couldn't lose, you know, so I was always surprised when I did, when I know something happened .

in neil atoms of life in judeo, written in one thousand eighty six, you wrote, ever since I can remember, i've wanted to win. IT wasn't the ordinary feeling that children have when they take part in their first primary school sack race on a grass track, or even the key determination of a Young swimmer prepared to train early in the cold winter mornings in order to make IT into the county side.

With me, the desire to win was, and still is, as much a part of me as my arms and legs. In other words, IT wasn't something I learned as I grew older, but rather was deeply rooted in me. Perhaps this competitive instinct is the greatest difference between my public image and the view.

The inside, the people see the kindness, the, the warmth you have, the, the Christmas excitement. But there is this big drive to win inside you. So what? What's behind that? Can you just speak to that drive to win and how they contributed?

I I look back now.

this a lot years .

ago is a years ago. This is not part of no. It's not for when to think about IT now because i'm A i'd like to think that i'm a different person now. And you know, since i've kind of calm down, I see athletes now and I see them do and they kind of arrogance. They they're walk and is a struck, you know and it's it's a kind of a confidence isn't IT, you know. And as we're older and as i've become older, i've calm down and but you know IT doesn't matter of what i'm doing is still that will to to win and a much Better masking IT. Now if I don't, but I still about me.

I like, I don't know, even just like stupidly illy things like like I .

know a game of people like anything in my he loves to play me at balls because i'm useless, you know, and I just can't throw a straight, so he loves playing me that, you know, but IT buggs me that i'm not Better, you know. And then, yeah, there are certain things that I do IT really bucks me when i'm not good at IT.

And I guess it's one of the reasons that um you know wait long after i'd finish competition, judo people still want to train with you you know and even at a like kind of an old age even now if I do in a seminar, still do you do you want to still go and can I feel IT? And you know what, one of the things that in me is that I just all the way up to forty years of age. So from thirty when I finish competition up to forty, I could still train with the best and I could still go with anybody.

And then when forty hit, kind of things started to fall off a little bit, you know, only to get either my hip or I did the legs and anything. And I realized that I had to pick my practices, and that rankled as well. And I had to then just calm IT down little bit. Others SE was going to be injured and I was going to be it's it's not a good thing when you get in older and you've still got the same competitive mind, but things changed.

So still there you get on on the mat, probably even now, right? You get on the matter with the world champion on you. Still the current world champion, there's still a little part of you. Yeah, I still toss this guy because these days are thought.

you know, some of these athletes, I mean, like I give you a prime example, right is I mean he is a monster, right? And you just, of course you couldn't, you know, because you just at sixty something you couldn't, but you like to think that you could.

you know, you know.

you know but you know what you would do. What you can do is you can cause them problems. But and they feel that immediately labor, you last a minute.

Train, I think is a really nice, I really training together .

of every hotel that used go into. We'd end up in the gym together and with train. And this one time he was in there, and he just wanted somebody to to grab and grip hold of an.

So we ended up doing this kind of grappling in the middle. You, like the people, do wait, training. Imagine, know of the different things. Watching these two mad men doing, i'm glad we were on a mat at that particular yeah.

but good fun. What do you think about that guy? He, like you, achieved a lot of success when his Young seventeen.

You imagine that one hundred and eighteen years wage and he's able to compete with the men, is not many men can do that, you know. And IT doesn't happen very often. IT happens later with the men.

And often they're not physically as developers. They you so from me, for example, I thought nev za of who was world olympic champion e he was the current olympic champion. They sent me to the european championship senior at seventeen.

And sad doesn't have him very often. And I thought I pulled nevers of. So I ve thought neves off. And I had a really worried, you know, because he expected, without a doubt, to come out through this kid know in junior .

he's like thick and .

shred like he's he was treated like there's a picture of him and his judgment and his judo just cotton and he looks the business and there's me and this baggy like yeah skinny kid inside this bagging thing. But you know, I and the thing was, is that the more he tried and the Harry tried, and the more he panic, the further IT went away from him. And so, you know, of course, he got, he get got the decision at the end and deserved. But I worried him, you know, so and and so for me, that was a massive step forward, because year later, I was you starting to fill out. And two years later, I was competing for the olympic title.

So I, if I remember, but artists is interesting, because even at seventeen, I feel like he was doing big throws, like literally lifting and just right .

some out the ground, you know. And I was to to nick and my wife and he said, what would you do now that was different than the way you did then, you know and I I never had any pick up, you know, I didn't. That's not that's not what we did, you know but you have a look at the the Young ukraine's or the, you know, the Young russians or the Young eastern block among golds and there ripping people out the ground. I mean, it's just different style of judo and it's IT just looks different. But now they are starting to do traditional style .

judeo as well. So can you speak to that with the different styles of judea? So for you, you mention, how do you describe them? They're like these effortless, less lifting off the ground and power, and like strength and export and more timing in position movement moments of all this kind of stuff that's more traditionally associated japanese. Because like for japanese judo, the traditional judo, like you just post to throw people in a big way without much effort.

And of course, we one thousand nine hundred ninety, we saw the introduction of all these eastern block countries. You know, the there were so many more. And IT was soviet union when I was competing.

And then, of course, in ninety and ninety, everything changed. And then there were so many more of them out there. Different countries where, you know, the restroom styles were, were introduced into juda. You put a jacket on them, and let's get into juda.

So judo kind of change shape IT IT changed shape from this up, right, standing, you know, and having to know the ten alias of how to get a body that's weight forty, you know, fourteen stonor, you know, whatever IT is up into the air and using the momentum and the baLance and the direction and and and the skill to do that, and no, how to do IT, you know, and how to use movement. And then you get, you know, the restless and and the like pigs and the double single leg, double legs and and a kind of, by nineteen ninety five, you know, juda was was bent over. And so IT was the I O C.

That went to I G. F. International judo federation. And they said, you got to change this or we're just gonna one restful star IT looks like restating the juda with juda jackets zone. So you either change IT what we are gonna take one of you out.

by the way, which I say people went over. That's usually how you see freestyle, restful, restless are more bent over to defend the legs and so on. And traditional do to people are more standing up because that's the position for which you can do the big throws and all like I do. But I think the other case to make for a banning like grapes, you know a lot of people using for stalling and not for beautiful big throws and all that kind of it's not just not to make a different from rustling, is is also like you want to maximized the amount of epic throws and dynamic judo, exciting stuff to watch .

a one by judo, not not by wrestling. And I think that you know the ones that were shouting about IT where the restrooms is, right, because they like to compete with both. They want to do both.

They want to do, you know, their restless matches and then come into judea. So basically, I mean, what we said is that learn to do judo and there's nothing stopping you then from doing both, right, but not from the other way around, alright? So rules always did take development.

They're always did tate, which direction IT goes. So if you introduce a role that states that you cannot dive at the legs and just pick up, then you'll have to do standing up. And also IT increases the possibility of defense with the hips, because actually good defense, judo wise, standing up is with the hips, as opposed to sticking your arms out and then sticking your backsides out there just to defend, all right.

So if you attacked me and I, I, I moved my body in the wrong place, so i'm in the right wrong place at the right time, so you don't hit the right target. And then also, I used my hips, you know. So again, it's it's a form of judeo that was being lost. So now we got IT back.

So let's go there. Let's speak about jeux. That's if we're talking to a group of five years old.

So what what is judea's? U what are some defining characteristics? S of judo as a sport, as a way, as a martial, large a way of life.

all that kind of stuff. I think, you know, when you say IT is a way of life, I mean the, I think the great advantage that we have in juju, my Young grandson. So I got two, two little boys that a thrand a half years of age.

We love going to our dojo. No love, you know, so dojo was the first word that they use. IT was one of the first. So I see, you know, so see my wife and I, you know, it's like, do you it's not grandma grand, you do. So dojo, they take their shoes off going into the dojo, you know that they have respect for whether at, and I think IT has that kind of feeling that, like I tried to build my dojo with a feeling of reference, it's kind of almost peaceful, you know. So if lie are not religious and not a religious person, but I like going to churches because when I going to an old church doesn't matter, you know what the religion within the church, but there a there's a reference in .

the reference is a good word. If music a really special place, no matter which doggy go to, it's just the bow and non calmness before the storm of battles of whatever .

IT is respect, you know yeah I look the respect. You know we were just talking about IT just before we came on on air. We were just saying that. We very, very seldom do we have a situation where there is animosity other than them fight.

You know, i'm i'm not saying that they didn't fight each other because sometimes IT does turn into a braw and at the end, two people bowl off and show their respect, you know and and one of the things that you know like, so a champion, I see people winning events and they are good. You doc, they're the excEllent. They win world championships, might even win the olympic games.

But a great champion for me is is somebody who treat who who does the right thing when they lose you. So when you see them lose, that's when you see the true them, you know. And actually there was one of the biggest things that I had to really cope with, you know.

So when I lost the olympic games in moscow and also the one in in los Angeles, the hardest thing is when the microphones in there and and you've got to be respectful and nice and and the hardest things to smile. But actually some of the great champions, you know, will go as just one match. You know, remember, we've got, we've got one great champion, a begin o SHE is five time world champion's olympic champion.

She's going, she's favourite as well to get this olympic go metal. French, what a great championship is, you know, because he lost one of the matches. I mean, SHE come back and a cheat given birth come back after giving birth, and everybody was gone, well, well, SHE, you know, but then, and then he lost one of the matches on the way through.

And SHE said, won't be, don't be upset. You know, it's just one match. It's just one contest. You know next time i'm onna put IT right and SHE did put IT right and now she's back up there and he won the world titled back so you know these are great champions for me yeah I mean.

I think I want to see, but it's also tragic to lose the olympic games. 你 让 twice C.

P, S, IT is tragic. And I I do have sleep less nice. I mean.

that's the magic. The olympic games, anything can happen. And near nineteen eighty olympics were very different from ninety four.

But we just linked on the on eighty. And just here we were talking about how much you wanted to win. You love winning or hate losing more.

I hate losing more, but I love winning. And I won the world title the year later, and I had no doubt when I went in that day that I was gonna be, well, champion.

no down. So you want to, uh, eighty one. Well.

temperature at the higher.

weight at the higher.

at the seventy.

eighty kg, actually. Can we go there? What what was going to your mind? You ended up, i'm barring a japanese fighter. I dought to Jimmy pedro, a friend.

You are somebody who said you were mentor to him for many years, and he told me a bunch different questions to ask you. But he said that was a really special time. That was a really special like dominant run you had um especially finishing with an our brag as a japanese player. So take me through that. What do you remember for that?

I think that IT was so my weight was Better. I didn't have to lose weight. There was one thing. So the nutritional side wasn't as important, but probably you know that I still wasn't as good as I could be mind nutrition, although IT was getting Better and was trying to eat the right things, the right time.

But I still trained really well and I was so confident they're going into that world chAmber GPS that I could willing. I had no doubt in my mind that I was gonna win. But you know, obviously corner of your mind you're thinking, just don't make mistakes.

But you know, this is the incredible thing is, is that once you start to ask you at once, I see contest change direction when i'm commentating, so I can see somebody else in there just going forward trying to win, right? So and that's a difference to somebody is trying not to lose. And these two different ways that you know.

So sometimes when you are so when I was well, then I had a period of time where every time I stepped out there, I was really afraid of losing and and I think that that's what happens later on in your competitive career. You know, the great time managed to come through that. Teddy and air is one of those, know, he just, he puts IT out there. Any kids beaten them, you know, so they can't take IT away from fantastic .

stepping on the every single encounter you to win. You are looking for the grapes and the with the intention to throw throw big even when your head on points on all that kind of stuff.

That's a really good point, is that if you go ahead in a match and you look at the clock, er IT depends when you go ahead. So I sometimes you can go ahead in the first minute and you've still got three minutes to go. So I see the ones then that go into I don't anna lose because they're going into defending modern, then sometimes they can lose IT on penalties or something can go wrong.

And the other one comes on strong and that they can sleep the contest. And so it's it's really difficult. But what when I was coaching, I was trying to always encourage that positive attitude for the full four minutes, five minutes.

Then I have computer a lot and you don't do just i've always hated that part of myself when i'm up on points by a lot. You look at the clock and it's what you do when .

you look at .

the clock half, you're really tired and you kind of a quit you just defend yeah and you go to that part about myself like .

that don't do yeah well .

as passage just go out in in juda that's for big though. Just keep going for the throw and just go for the admission throw caught like win in the real way verses on on on points. I hate that miss. I mean, mostly underneath that is cowers induced by exhaustion.

Exhaustion is the one isn't IT, you know, but IT is isn't IT, it's a mindset as well. no. So actually trying to get your mind positive all the way through, you know I mean, if you listen when I converted to know is I say, I hope that they don't change the mindset that they keep on and they are going forward all the time, you know.

And actually there then more difficult to catch. We had one just couple of weeks ago, and he lost in the final second of the contest, lost the final. He was the only one to score.

He got penalty, zed, all the way up, two seconds to go and stepped out of the area, and, you know, but he went like that, thinking the bell was just going. And the bell went one second after he actually stepped out, so he got penalty. Zed lost the match and lost all of the points for qualification. So I IT was, you know, that's paying high Price. That's a paying high Price.

Yeah, I mean, this this is a thin, thin line between the triumph and tragedy in in a those competition, but especially the olympic games. So let just stick on eighty one world championship. What I feel like to win that world championship like a and also getting a new bar is a japanese player. A Jimmy told me your arms .

were exhausted. yeah. I mean, just the thing is that sometimes you know when you're going well, it's competitive as well.

You know ours is a different intensity to like you just where you can take time a little bit. I was is bang. It's transitioning from standing down. You've got ten, fifteen seconds to go in there.

You go in one hundred percent a bit like running uh uh you know full out for ten seconds like and then you've got ta decide then, especially if they're defending IT, whether you let IT go because when you get up, your four arms are blown. You know, you got lactic acid in there and you've still got a grip up because remember hours about gripping as well on the jacket. So if you can't grip up, then you can gain the advantage, then they can throw you, you know, so you have to decide.

So I had a massive attack on him, and we changed directions four or five times, and and then I wasn't going to let him go. But I still, you know, when I was turning him there, I had to decide, am I gonna go all out for this and and just or, you know, like there are husband occasions when i've kind of released IT to, you know, forgot a minute to go and just get out. yeah. So so what you're saying .

on the future is to change the direction of all different kinds of attempts. And then you went to the ground and yes, so what was that you remember that decision of? Like, okay.

i'm going to yeah, I knew I I, I just soon as I climbed this back and and then I thought it's not going he's not i'm not going to let him up so I was just changing.

change a little something .

in my head was going, don't you know just stick on him and and then it's always about pressure on the army and I just know and of course he was like that you know were defending. You know, he was almost total bridge trying to get .

out of starting turtle.

You started in turtle because I did an attack, came back out of the attack, and then he went on to his front, and then I was on his back. And then I .

started the house.

Just, I was I was an automatic transition. So I mean, the transitions, what we teach, you know because the ones that are quicker down with the transitions are the ones that catch IT. That's our new other you know our groundwork is the transition from standing down to ground and very you know we don't have a situation where you can kind of work your way in. You are in or you you're not in, you're standing, you know, so you going to make sure that you're in. And so I had I was just on his bat like a lot, and I never let him go mean.

yes, so that's where the ARM bars, that's where the attacks in the ground, which is called in IT, was that happens in the transition at that level, at that high world class level?

Yeah I mean, he was no hugging though. I I think he just got third, third place in the old japan champions PS, which is that all way category. So he was he wasn't a mug.

No, he was strong. And i'd fourteen once before and and I knew he was a lefty as well, which was really awkward for me, that I feel good, Better for me than him. He did IT felt IT far amazing, you know, because IT was almost like all these things, disappointments and everything.

I'd kind of come to. This one point where I was the last kind of champagne of the world is everything I said as a kid, that I have no idea how difficult IT was gonna be, you know. So as a kid, as a fourteen year old kid, I remembers saying, i'm gonna world champion. I'm going to be the best of the world. Had no idea how difficult that was going to be.

Well, there's wisdom to that, right? Like there's power's stupidity of youth. I like, just like i'm going to the world time, going to witness without knowing how heart IT is and then once you go after it's a your trap.

you going to have to do the work. Yes, what I you setting up with parents as well, you know, parents, you know our little john is, you know, he's amazing and he's this, that and the other they have no idea what you know now there I remember the very first time I stepped out one thousand hundred and seventy four into the european and cadets. And I remember um that we were fighting.

I D only ever thought in great britain I was the top before I was unbeaten in in the juniors kids and went out there. And there were these different fighters out there that were treating me with total disdain. And I remember thinking how early, you know, I did just that. And I realized when I came back from that event, there's other people out there. There's just a whole you know, when there are different levels of you know, that majority people, I just not informed as to watch out there and the different levels that they are out there.

do you remember like a certain that for the first time you felt like, holy shit yeah there's .

part .

like somebody just gripped you up and you're like, this is there's another level to .

this game ago was eo was one of them and I found him you know I in the european champions are made him in you know, to or two times and then lost him in the olympic games two months after to have beat him in the european chair. Yeah, yeah. So IT wasn't that more .

difficult, right? yeah.

So that made IT more difficult. And so he, ez, o was one. And getting hold of a member, uh getting hold of niche da of a japan and he had me go up and down and ah I just I thought, wow, this guy is amazing, you know and i'd never thought first time I ever thought japanese in a major tournament, you know and I felt the danger, I was talk about the danger when we go out to japan to train, I could go probably months without getting thrown in training here in europe.

And and I go to japan, you know everybody's thrown you, you know that difficult to accept and the reason that kind of danger and that kind of a feeling of danger is something that puts a real edge on, you know? And so that was first time when I got out of the, I thought, oh, my know this guy know that of which way he was turning like that, and we stretched out and and I thought that I wanna do this, you know? And then ended up fighting him again in japan.

So that feeling of danger is really interesting, that you, the story with a lot of world class people from different parts of the world, including illness, otis, and like there's a certain part, like eastern european and judo, you you feel like you screw the whole way through, like the griping you really feel in the griping is the grip in japanese, good japanese style doka. You don't like it's a terrifying commit, but at least the experiences of i've had IT you don't really feel in in the gripping. You just feel like anywhere you step you're getting thrown is a different, is a different thing, a different thing.

So I mean, mind kind of a mixture. I'd like IT to be mixed because there was the gripping is definitely the key point. So if you ve got a high level guys that are gripping up now, I was used to put this to the referees when we were doing referee seminars, when we first started them.

And i'd say how many because like they would referee to their understanding of the match. So they were penalties zing for certain grips that were and actually, so as an example, let's uh, I level I would say if you ever a grip ta with high level, alright, because if you haven't, you need to do IT. Because then you will understand why they do certain things with the grips. Because these guys are like, you know, when somebody gives you and you think, you know, you're gonna when early add, put this on mother, you that right and you you know you gonna up and over, you know you onna go over.

You know it's .

whatever .

why is what it's like? I mean, that cause is not a IT feels way more powerful than you should yeah, it's weird. I don't know you want attributed to strength and all that kind of stuff like people say you have like immense up body strength, but it's probably ly something else. It's like take me get some kind of weird everything just like something hardened through blots of battles and random in that kind of stuff yeah but it's cool that humans are able to generate that kind of power.

When I was eighty four olympics, well, but I just go there now just quickly. But there was, we had a freestone rustler american, actually, but he had english nationality, so he competed for no loben. His name is, and he competed for great britain.

He got third place at the olympics in eighty four. But he was training, we were training at the guy, and he was training. He came to do some judo and put jacket on.

And of course, he was training with some of the lower levels, and he was really handling himself well. And then, if I need to feel, you know, when we did randomly, so I eat some Randy with me, and and I immediately thought I gotta catch. I got to stop single leg and double leg, because he was really quick, right?

So strong as ninety thousand kilos he was like, here he's a big guy so I ve caught slave immediately caught and controlled him and and then he couldn't start, right so he said, I needed to feel the difference. So then I thought I Better separate this so I said, well, you know, so we did the around and I throw a couple of times. He said, i'm really glad we did that.

So I said, I need to fill a difference as well. So we take the jackets off. So we took the jackets off. And he was a nightmare. This guy was a nightmare and like a monster you know what it's like single legging me and and you know IT was just totally different though I was like the jacket makes a massive difference, huge difference to something, you know and and you people think it's just a jacket that we're wearing. But IT is it's it's our only too, actually yeah and .

it's control I mean, it's a way of establishing control over another body yeah and it's a whole art farmer science and I don't even know if you understand that really you understand IT sort of subconsciously through time. Yes, because I get this is so much involved because pull on one part of the jacket puls, other parts of the jacket, yeah, like the physical. So that is probably insane.

Understand, it's absolutely insane. And then they change the rules for a little while, and they change the rules so that you couldn't hold uhh, you know that certain a grips were not allowed, only allowed certain amount of time, and there were a lot of penalties for know then you know they had some of the x fighters into the referee commission.

And so we were pushing for just let them grip you know because that's that's that's no game, you know that's what makes you different you know again, if if grip up with somebody like so they've wrong about yeah twenty one air comes out, takes a sleeve yeah big ARM over the top and and then you know, he throws people right so they were saying, abbot stars, you can't stop and doing IT this guy, six foot nine yeah and he is built like god. You know, he's like and he's he's and not only that is skillful as well, you know, and he got that mentality of a winner. He has got that mentality of a winner that he just wins important matches and he .

goes over the top of the group. Did they where is that learn now in terms of rules over the top? Because this is some of the most epic, awesome type of grips yeah just like over the top big grab yeah well.

as long they throw from IT so they can take any grip, as long as you move them and then catch them kind of action reaction really you know, as long as you catch them on the move.

then you can do so long are not using IT the stall or .

that kind of stuff can't lock out yeah I mean, if I so like, for example, if i've got dominant grip on you and I just block out and I just I just stop you attacking me, so then what I get you three, ten penalties get you off and you have not done in the attack. So go to a stop that you can have.

No, no, definitely you were the favor to win the city for olympics. We got silver. I watched that match several times.

You probably having have a plane in your head. So there is a nice change of direction by your opponent. German Frank, when nike, yes, he was a fake, right? Uh, mota. And then to the left drop, saying, how do that loss feel devastating is is not you .

know is not enough really um because you know the straight thing was is coming into that olympics, I was tired, really tired. So my mental state wasn't the best, wasn't certainly the same IT was coming into the previous. And I I would remember thinking, I just need to get this over with, then I can have a break and just have arrest, you know and and that's totally the wrong attitude and it's just not not good for going into an olympic games.

And so I I was coming in there with a different mindset, and I remember every match that I had. I was winning well, but I was winning with a struggle. You know, I was, I was really not.

I'd fought no back. And I was pretty of france who was one of the strongest physically that was in the quarter finals. I beat bret bar by an upon.

I am locked him. I won my first match by upon as well. And then Michelle know that I was fighting a france, and I was lucky to to win IT. I was IT up.

I was scored on him, but I was like starting to defend and just everything that I talk you about you and they're just about held on and and then I ve won and you know so him and I was talking afterwards, like some years afterwards, and he said I was close. Wasn't I was. But not close. I didn't mean IT yeah right.

But I had to say IT right, of course course.

So I and know he was right. You know, IT and IT was one of those. So I started to the semi final.

I fought lsc a in the semifinal of, and i'd fought him in the semifinal of the words as well, i'd never gone time with him. I'd never, I always beaten him fairly easily and with bike on. And that went time.

So I was, was I just, just glad to get IT done. And I was in the final then against Frank vini ka of germany. And i'd beaten vinca before, but he was just a Young german coming through. And when I started the final I was, I thought, right, i've just and I started all my techniques.

Just that little bit of nothing was coordinated, but IT was just I can't really explain why was just a little bit of I see so often now with a lot of the year guys there going for second, third limped games. And I see their their technique just not quite there and they're struggling. And and I know when you know, I know what they are going through and I kind of empathize with them.

Well, you, I like were dominating .

that I dominated. Yeah was winning. He was and and actually got another minute and half IT would have been all over, and I would have been limpid and IT would have been done.

He wouldn't patted on I later, right? But he he would have fought me really, really well. And he wouldn't talked about that afterwards.

And he said was just my good day for me, you know. And you know, he was very respectful. This guy is very respectful.

He was the surprise, almost. I mean, you not almost. He was very surprised and celebrating like.

surprise, not down. Like, no. And look at that kind. You know where he wasn't IT on. But you know what?

I got IT back, I know, but I I think that actually taken the pressure of because I was another thing as well. I have been favorite know when I see that with a lot of them. And then, you know, the great champions, the ones that keep coming through copeland.

C, there's a guy, you know, you can, very ordinary. And then comes the big tournament. I think he'll wit the tragedy .

of big games. I mean, you're the favorite. Ite, and just like that, like split moment.

you lost IT split moment, devastating and lift IT. Probably not every day, but you know, nick, my wife will tell you that woken up and sweats there and you know and and I think they contributed as well because I appeared in my my life after where I was drinking to margin, you know and I I think kind of when I look back, kind of LED into, though that that kind of dark period in my life know, and I never, ever, ever, you know, did you go through my mind anything else, but he definitely affected me.

And I was on a downtown kind of spiral in a lot of different ways and would still even, you know where we we have an amazing marriages and we have amazing family and everything is great. But I still wake up sometimes, and i'll say, i've just dreamt, I know that is the same reoccurring dream where trying to get somewhere, and i'm trying to put IT right. You know, when I i've got this chance of putting this olympic final right in this dream, I ve got a chance of doing, but I can't get there and the traffic stop at me or something stops me and know. And then I wake up and i'm sweating and and you think, well, after all this time, that's not possible but IT is and .

that happens yeah I mean, in the match itself, there's that feeling for me just watching IT like your you're gone for throws. You you're almost get now with the throws and it's almost like he's gone for kind crap. You mota, and then you just like you stop you blocking IT.

And also, I mean, that's the beauty of the olympics. He finds in himself the switch. Is that like against a favor against sort of the great british judo? Ca just finds the perfect drops and argue.

well, you know, his team doctor and coach, he came up to me after and said, i'm just really sorry and that's all they said is i'm just really sorry they were sorry because you know of the obvious sadness about that eleven. And of course, everybody takes there. You know, I went actually to was IT three weeks later, the german open.

So he he had to compete in the german open three weeks later. So I went over to fight him and and beat him in the final of german open. And he didn't do anything for me because I was a much title match.

He was a lot closer. He had a lot more confidence of coming in. So he fought me a lot differently. And then IT was me, pulling IT back and just managing to win in the final. And I thought, well, that might appears, IT appears nothing didn't do anything.

When you give your whole life to you to just and your lovel winning, that's crazy. How much that begins. Mean.

IT IT means so much. And I I think, no, but i've got, and I gotta say this, and this is, honestly know that meant there, if I had won the olympic games and IT to change my life into a different direction, which i've probably would have not competed in the eighty olympic games, then, all right. So if you've changed my life and then I didn't have I didn't meet my wife, I know I didn't have my family that i've got now there's no you know, I would uh, I wouldn't swap that what i've got now for anything .

part of the demons that you gotten to know because of those losses is part of probably the central reason. Imagine the man, you are a legend of the sport. You could have been not that because an olympic gold is just an olympic gold.

Yeah, IT is isn't IT, you know? And I think that there's a lot of olympic champions and world champions that win and then have forgotten. And I said to a nicki, I said the my wife, I said, I don't want to be forgotten and I wanna be remembered.

So if i'm gna do anything, anything I do, if I gonna do commentary or whatever, IT is a coaching I want to do coaching to a high level. And I want to commented at a high level. And remember the first commentary I ever did IT with terrible. And and I just thought i've got to do Better than this. And I I thought, I just, I need to do IT well, and I got to do .

professionally. So in the book, a game of throws, you have a chapter titled lessons and losing. So what are some of the lessons here? What are some of the deeper lessons? If you pull out of losing.

I think great champions are made up of the people that handled in the right way. And you could say, well, I don't like losing, you know and you could throw your dummy out the prime and you can be a bad lose in front of everybody. And actually people pick up on that very, very quickly.

You know what is like in broadcasting, right? Somebody has bad word to say about somebody and you and you, but actually the ones indeed themselves to you are the ones that handle in the right way. The right way doesn't mean that you've got to like IT.

I didn't like IT, and I thought that I handle IT certainly in later years in the right way. And I like to see athletes do IT in the right way, you know. And I think that is a make break situation.

It's not all the contest they win. It's the one they lose and then how they pick themselves up and handle themselves after. So I think that that is a big one for me. And also, I mean, I went through you know, obviously a later divorce and that was difficult on my son, really difficult on.

And then I was and I think that some of that was the fact that I was, you know, kind of I wasn't drinking all the time, but I was drinking in excess at the wrong time, you know. And I think that that's what a lot of people do sometimes, is that they use that for the wrong reasons. And I I used to hear that.

I still I hear IT now all the time. You know, IT is that, you know, I I need to knock the edge off and I need need to just forget, and I need to, you know, and you need to be in a fussy place for a while. And I had a lot of time and in fuzzy place, and I needed to get rid of that, and I needed to claim ahead.

Where was that place? The some of the lower points in your life that you ve reached mentally?

I think you know definitely you know the fact that my marriage, first marriage didn't work, you know and that was, you know, it's a mix of things that you know between us and and then, you know, so that's not where I wanted to be at the time. And the effects that I had on my son and IT took a long time for him then to come round into to trust me again, you know, and to have belief. He was a belief in me, but to trust me again.

And then I think that that was low. And and I think that you know what to look back, is that a lot of my bad decisions were aware I was in that fuzzy kind of haze and got progressively worse. That got progressively worse to the degree where IT was, you know, turn hide IT and turn to hide down much.

And I was kind of a functioning kind of drunk. No, I think you could probably say that. And, you know, I was functioning. I was still able to. I was still training most days, crazily enough.

You know, I was training to kind of masked and covered and that was probably in my savior that I was still, you know, because I remember I said to my wife, said to nicky, i'm probably the face if if i'm, you know, a drunk, that i'm a fat drunk in the world. He said, yeah, you probably are. Actually, I was in great condition for a drunk.

So the the fuzzy haze, where was your mind? Did you have periods of depression?

I have a period of depression. I can onest Y I that my depression wasn't that bad, although I did. You know, when it's like anything that gives you an up, you know, that gives you a an even bigger down, doesn't IT you know and and so I hated that feeling and also hated myself for let that happen because I I ve got this really I is bizarre um I don't know whether you can call IT a power, but I I have the ability to be able to say.

Stop and I, I, I can just and last one I did in the end. In the end there there was an incident when I was working for belden judeo and there was an incident IT was Christmas IT was the, I tell you, exactly the day I was twenty of the december. And many of began coach.

We got absolutely hammer, but we were at the wrong place, and he got noticed. And and so I remember they they pulled me up in front of this board, and I looked down these guys and half of them with people I didn't want to be in that situation with. You know, they are not people that are respected and they're not people that I trusted.

So I said. If you're gonna, sack me, sack me but i'd going, I promise you now that I would just, this is i'll stop. I'm just going to have decided on the way back in the car I, rk, nicky, up my wife and I said, whatever you here and now, whatever I am, just gonna stop. So what is IT stopped?

You just saw the moment and .

to stop, stop.

So that fuzzy, what advice would you give to people about how to overcome that, that dark place, the depression, whether has to do with drinking or not?

I think if it's to do with drinking, all I can say is, is that the two days or a week into not drinking, you'll feel different. You know that I will make a physical difference, and you'll like the physical difference. And then from a mental perspective as well because I think that you know you have a massive downer, you know um and I I think that that must be because of drugs as well because I had situation with my brother and he was like, you know the professional restless and the drugs was an element there and you know so i'd never touched a drug or even seen one in my life, but you know, i'd let the alcohol i'd go too far and then decided never to do that.

So then I guess I had people ring in me up you know saying, you know, how how can we stop? You know? So when they say, can I have a word and can I discuss something with you? And I know then what they wanted discussed with me, you know, and and the thing is, is that I would say, you know, if you stop, then feel the effects of of of of of IT and IT will make a difference to your everyday life and that that will make a massive difference.

And I think about anybody kind of dinner is down all the time, is to find the the cause of what's push me down, you know I mean and and and try um trying attack that uh because it's never somebody once said to me they said whatever you got, you know we've got something special. I mean we have a great life and have a great competition record. You know that I could have been Better, but IT was great.

But i've had success with my business. And we're still out there. And we have great life.

We travel all the world and these people out there that would live in your house at the drop of that wherever you are, they drive your car, you know, no matter what car IT is, some people, i'm got a car, you know, and whatever food you're having in your mountain about food, right? Somebody out there that would take that and gladly eat that, alright. So there's always somebody worse off than you. And I think that we tend to sometimes look at the things that we haven't got rather than the things we have got.

Yeah it's the skill probably just to be grateful for the things you have exactly, he said in this, sometimes the little things like food and yeah cars, all that kind of stuff, just to have gratitude for your family, all this kind of but is still I know haven't talked to a much of olympic athletes. There is a you know, when you give so much of your life to winning and then you lose sometimes, even when you win. But when you lose at the very top, it's a tough, tough, but tough thing to go through.

The most difficult thing, I think, for anybody is when they have to decide when to stop. Yeah, yeah, you know and that all of a second and I I see the ones that are going second olympic games and then third olympic and and the ones that are there and they are holding on and they're in their thirties now different to when they were nineteen years of age. You know, thirty something is different to nineteen.

And then what are you going to do afterworld? You know, then oud, you become just a Normal person. You've never gonna a Normal person as such.

But I think you've got to do Normal things, you know. And then you've got, remember the first time that when I finished competition, I had good sponsors. This was, you know, forty years ago.

But I had two really good sponsorships, vitamin company and also a judi company. And I had a car. And do you know, I had money.

I just and and I was going in all over the world, I was successful. And then I stopped and they took everything back. They took my car.

They did. And they did IT within two weeks as well, they stopped my funding, you know, and the victim and company, they said, thank you very much. Spent a great, you know, we've done well by you. Bye bye.

This was after your last olympics.

eighty eight olympics, just, you know, and that finished. And then that was IT. And it's right. Okay, first time I had to go in there and buy a track suit and a para training. Choose here wow yeah .

there's a different ult in the evening by yourself.

So you go from seven days a week or six days a week going into the germ and and you know you're working out the dojo and and then then you don't have that. You know that's why you get a lot of when theyve finish competition theyve finish that thirty to forty. We're still I mean, ella is still doing that now.

He's still in there and he's still you know and be pretty can right? okay. And and it's natural. I did exactly the same. And then like I say, you just get to an age and you just think just kind of take a step back.

which is why like there's certain athletes like real caton, I never stops. It's just dominates for fourteen years, probably one of the winning est athletes in judo. Yeah seven time world cham to time olympics, cham metals at five olympics. So it's always impressively, never stopped. So that's an option if you are like the greatest, be .

interesting. Wouldn't have just to say what they are doing now, you know because at some stage, you know at some stage you have to decide what you're going to do. You know you know it's either into coaching.

The do is either to coaching or if you're not in coaching, then it's into a something to do with the media. And you know, I was lucky that one I was just by accident. And really with the commentary somebody said, um would you do a voice over? So I did this voice over. That was back in one hundred and eighty two I did that.

So you've been commentators since nineteen .

and eighty two. I did some voice over. I wouldn't call IT commentating but I did some voice over us and then I did some we did with some different european champions PS world championship kind of events and I did the voice over for IT and the way that IT was done um that IT was more narration and so I kind of turned into then somebody asked me to do an event and when you listen to the intention of the voice and stuff like that, IT wasn't like IT is now. But I guess that's just something that developed as you know because then IT was coming from the heart and let's dino start to get excited and just do my thing. And IT was just me, really is just my time.

Well, i'll listen to your computer from a while back. I don't know. It's eighties, but still there.

I think IT timing as well isn't IT. It's like, you know get timing bit Better and no way to go in when to come out, went to say something when not, you know. No, I think the in the early days, I tend IT to think I tend IT to want to talk all the time and you don't have to do that also .

knowing what to shut up. That's the case is yeah part of the dramas in the silence building up to the set up, in the throw out that kind of stuff. But also you're very good at while radiating passion, being very precise and specific about the details of the throne and set up and why something works and didn't .

so yeah I think this two kinds of commentating, you can commentate what you see and then you commentate what people can't see, you know and and so if you got somebody there is not really understanding of what's happening in the inner part of the game. So I might be a technical thing or IT might be the tactical part of the play here. It's going on. And if you can introduce that as well, then you've got .

an advantage, quick cause and a .

breath and break OK. Good stuff.

So we just took a little break and went to judo T V dot com, which is, I guess, an I G F website. I G F is the organization behind a lot of the big jura event of the world, and I just signed up. You should sign up to as great.

You can wind up cheap for the Price, cheap for the Price.

and you can watch basic any match from the the great slams and go back to history.

I guess say, like, I mean, everybody, still people saying to me, you know, we need more judo on television. They were judo on television every of the week that they can access all of the top people in all the top events. And IT costs one hundred dollars a year.

You know, it's to access everything, and they can play all the videos. I mean we've just access this here, the paris tournament and we will never look at telly relay. But you know it's it's so it's cheap er at the Price.

So we now compares grants and twenty twenty four tell you in their final is super cool, like you click on the draw and you can just look at any other matches over the bottle of the finals go any one of them that's so cool. That's really well done, really well done interface. Anyway, let me have first ask the ridiculous big question. Who do you think is the greatest of all time staying .

in the writing is the greatest judo winner of all time of that? There's no doubt. You know, I mean, he he's and I think if you asked him him whether he was the greatest judo man in the world of all time he would say no i'm not you know and is not the greatest gender man. There are people with um you know more beautiful judo in some ways although he's got great technique but he he is the ultimate .

winner ten time world chap yeah two time gold medalist in the olympics. I guess two time bronze medalist is probably going if he's going to .

paris and is going after again so a month ago and then last week, wiki, he was out again and he he .

want again you think he gets there's .

people getting closer to him, right? He is obviously you know is age wise and the amount of time that is been there, he is obviously somebody that is starting not quite at his best as he was when he was Younger. But like I say, still puts IT on the line.

He lays IT on the line every single time. And then not only did he lay on the line, but beat them all. You know, last week he just beat catto, who was a Young up and coming japanese fighter, and, uh, he beat him in the final. IT was close and he did well, there are certain people, smaller ones actually, not the tall of ones. Because like you, we're saying about the big ARM over the top that he likes and the dominant grip that he likes, there are people that can give him my hard time.

Now if at the olympic games he has two or three of those on the truth that might work against them, you know, and it's by no means an absolute certainty that is gonna in the olympic goal middle, but he's GTA be one of the favorites, top favorite. You know, no matter what happens now, telegenic is the greatest winner that do you know. And if you ask the great you master, he would say the same.

You know, nobody that you know when you mashed was unbeaten in an international competition. And I trained with a master a lot over a two year period and got to know him quite well. And he was one of the greatest of all times for me, was one of the greatest general men. And i'm talking about from a text ical point of view, from a spectacular judo point of view, uh, understanding the fundamental principles of of how techniques work, sometimes having you know different techniques that work for you. So if one doesn't work and and one particular direction doesn't work, you can change the direction completely and give .

people to know your, marsha is this legendary doctor, have you wait? The air heavy plus one hundred K G, so he .

he would cause .

them all sorts of .

problems. Yes, I that's but .

you know, you think you must, should be, stay here. I think so strong words you think so, you think so you much that is on the shorter side right um .

and the he finds IT more difficult was short to people you know so IT IT was IT would have been a very interesting confrontation. And I think if you asked you matched he would probably say, you know the tea he's very gracious. He's very gracious. IT would be really good. I would have been an an unbelievable match up and and i've gotta say this that you know television is the greatest winner of all time .

competition was so it's interesting um both of them maybe incorrect me but have this solar gary, which is kind of trip that I never .

understood yeah .

was a very tRicky thing to do right? It's very easy to do maybe as a White bet you all in you can understand we like to do IT at the high, high.

higher level. You see any of the top guys now, especially of the second time out, you know, so like they might catch somebody by surprise, they come out, they go bang. H, and, you know, that was amazing, right? But if they thought again, ten minutes later, you go you're not going to catch me with that.

You're going to different situation here. And so it's slightly different, but the best fighters adapt like that and they're able to see situation, feel a situation and they attack once and then go again and attack second, third time. And in the third time.

they make IT work, both motion tavener with a solar. They'll just like IT over and over in the match.

Yes, sometimes you'll hit first time and IT won't go. And then you make a read justman of the way in that is a little bit like, I mean, if you take him, a really easy way of understanding IT is that if we're shooting in a target and all of a sudden you start moving that target, you is different hitting a moving target, but is also different hitting a moving target. This try to hit you as well.

And that's our game, right? So we're not only trying to throw a moving target. We're trying to throw a moving target is trying to throw us. That makes me even more difficult.

There's there's a few folks who you know what's coming. It's like over, over, over the same attack anyway with this, which mota is like is different. There's not many people like that, words like this the same attack, I mean the other attacks also, but it'll just go after the same thing over.

over, over. When I watched great athletes, most of them can throw over both flanks, not always going left and right, you know, although our sport always, I mean, the cats are always demonstrated left and right. So like if you demonstrate, if you do something on one one side, you know, then can you demonstrate IT on the other side, right? okay.

So can you do IT equally? No, where you do IT differently, right on the other side. So you know, when i'm teaching, I, I, I don't teach left and right, I teach.

So if I was teaching you to do a technique, first thing I do is say, I needed to take slain the power. Alright, i'd let you decide what was left and right. okay? Because often what happens is we in part on people, whether they are going to be left to write.

When we start teaching, you know, you get a lot of teachers do that, and i'll say immediately, are you know what do you write with left or right hand as no indicator actually asked to how we do you because I left handed and I do more predominant right handed because I lead off my strongest hand. And actually most people do, you know. So actually left and right is a bit of a trap sometimes. You know, when we're teaching Better to get, you know, because we can go. So my point was, is that a lot of people can go both flanks, so they'll do something over this side and something over this side.

But anyway was one side.

he was one siety, but he could he could switch IT so he had, uh, c ng as well on the other side, so he could switch if .

he had end up, by the way, your opponent eighty four was he ride or lefty? He was a righty. So that drop left here. So what did that come from? Well.

I mean, again, IT was, you know, he could probably had in other contests. He'd hit me with IT several times, and I just adopted IT and just at the wrong place at the right time for him, right place in the wrong time for me, right?

That's life. yeah. Washing tell.

This is final of paris tournament, and this is against the korean. Korean had had a great day, actually.

Again, shorter and shorter.

So he just find that difficult. How look at teddy air telly, an air trying catch the sleeve. He's after the sleeve ve and then they write ARM over the top. That's the key point for text, rena and. Of course, what he what he has done, if he can always catch the big outside of gary over um his right hand side, he's been doing something to the opposite side .

in the the crane, just one for drop sale. And a block the hips, like I say, is difficulty .

always against somebody smaller dropping with the cnas.

Has a tail air ever been thrown wed for import?

I never for the pm but he was thrown last week for a nice uh uh technique and is being .

caught more .

or more yeah and to say in the final of the world championships they had a strange situation. There were to say if was was a technique down and then pulled off a counter and they didn't count IT but then they overruled IT. Unfortunately, I was accommodating at the time and I I went for score, for the, for the save. And anyway, they overruled IT and then they awarded a second go medal to save working.

say, about torch, who also given trouble yeah.

but I say other two that could possibly go to the olympics. So and that was a close one there from marana. That was a closest that i'd actually been there. So didn't have the sleeve. And he realized on the sleeve greatly big support there in the french, in the crowd.

And also, maybe can you explain the penalties for for stalling?

Yeah so if if they don't attack, if they've got a grip uh and they're got sleeped lapel, they ve got two hands on um if they're too passive and they don't attack, if they're got dominant sleep grip, they don't attack. IT was a close as well from the korean. So the korea, you can see, is having a real go.

You know, the penalty ties will come if they don't attack at the right time. Step outside the yellow area. Theyll get penalty. Zed as well that as dedication .

for absolutely, I mean.

IT was really close. Wasn't IT a nice little coach, gary there from the korean? And if they touched below the belt line with the arms so they could then allowed to grab the legs, they've stopped to grabbing the legs. Wow.

the korean is really going.

Koreans having a real good. And I guess every .

single person in the divisions is probably training for the right.

you think has been time. You know, he's got another guy here in the find of the paris tournament. He's got eighteen thousand people watching IT. They're tell in their side they wanted to win. And the koreans out there on his own with his coach.

but also the pressure on until there.

amazing, amazing pressure. We, we interviewed him after this and he said, i've got pressure. You know, people go, well, is he going to do IT at the olympic games? Can I do IT in paris? He wanted to go to paris.

I mean, really, I mean, the last time began, should have been IT shouldn't last, should have been the final one. But he's gone now. I've got ta do another four years. Two penalties are on the board already for the korean. That korean is really having a great go, a bit .

of a lift on them. He's going after IT.

He's really go and after you know, it's it's an amazing effort there from the korean and he's getting some last minute to information. I don't know if you've ever seen his coach to next to me like that, but though it's amazing. I six for six and he's he's about the forth sake. He is a for full passion.

I know. Yes, screaming.

So golden school, how does go working .

golden score .

if IT goes without any point on the board from the throw war, hold down or ARM not strangle, then IT goes into golden score. So IT two sheet s on the board piece. One more mistake now and it's .

gonna all over.

And yeah, telling IT just manages to turn IT on the korean and that went really against the run na play didn't IT the korean did Better but know teleme there is a winner yeah and he says, right okay, let's have more, more .

cheering finds a way to the score in the and I .

have to say, you know that even when he loses, you know, he is always Graceful. Yeah, he doesn't like IT.

What is Graceful is love. Their celebration is to see is that he's doing IT again, going after a chase and gold metal again.

When is go medis gonna in paris, which is gonna even, you know, more fantastic. You know, he's already the greatest you said, you know, what is he gonna do to to be the great is already the greatest competitor judo s ever known. And that was even, you know, with them, with them.

The great h ti. You know, so tiny was amazing as well. Are you part of .

the commenting and part of the commentating team?

But IT won't before I, J, F, because it's independent broadcast.

Have you ever had an athlete sort of come out to you and asked, like why why do you say that? Or like, disagree with your commentary.

You know, I ve got ta say that ninety nine percent, ninety nine, nine point nine percent of everybody is so grateful that i've commentated their fights all the way through. They know if theyve messed up. So if I say something and I never disparate ging really disparate ging, you know but what I will say is you know was a great throat by the other guy or I was a great match and if they made a mistake, so if they walk out, they know that um I will say something that will you know mean something so nobody really mounds about IT. I trying talk the truth if I can.

So who was would you consider as as some of the grades? So I I personally just because I love the standing and an argue cogan, so there is like, you know the number of times you won the world champion on ships in the olympic games, but there's also like how you want and how you wanted to fight in what you did. You know it's not necessarily about getting gold, how you fought, how you represent the sport and that certain athletes like anyway, and that s that are going after the big throws only after .

they just want to win buy up on, you know. And I think that that the difference is there, the ones that come out there, and it's a bit like you when tyson stepped out there, you knew what you were going to get, you know. And if they went toe to toe, if tyson had somebody going to to toe, somebody was gonna knocked down.

And you know the same in euro, when people go head to head and it's an open match. And I often talk about an open match. I say it's an open match. They are both trying to score. Somebody is gonna get scored on somebody, he's gonna go, you know, and that's that makes an exciting and it's when they come out and they closed up, you know, then that's not exciting much.

Is there a case for for, show you all know, three time world champ to time gold medals.

I think that, you know, judo wise is got to be one of the greatest. Because he had such versatility. He had, he could go right, he could go left, he could pick up, he could go to the ground as well.

He won a lot of his earlier matches on the ground. Um I think is empathy. You know how we present himself sometimes falls down. And I think that hopefully that should come with the two terms and how how to be a great champion after, you know, it's not just about what you do on the map, but what you do off the matter.

Well to you, a great happy on is the whole package of how how you present yourself and you lose how you present yourself. Just.

yeah, I think is how you present yourself afterwards, how you are with people, how much you can help people. I mean, people, kids, and you know, they look up to these great champions because they want to be like them. So the worst thing is, when you get somebody that's a bit of an us and and they're not to presenting themselves in the right way.

So I like to see somebody presented themselves in the right way. And I think that it's something that can be taught is something that Normally comes with a little bit experience, a little bit of age. And I like to think that it's different now then I was when I was nineteen, not that was I just think I was just, you know, I say often now, you know, just full of beans.

Yeah, you're beautiful. Work in progress. What about numa that I hear in a mora? There's three time gold medalist .

never lost an olympic fight so that there's nobody yeah nobody ever done that. You know, that means so that's got to be, that has to stand. He took two years off in between every olympic games and came back to the right amount of events to qualify for.

Not of me did haven't to qualify. I to qualify through japan. Now, japan, remember of got the greatest death.

So they got people coming through all the time, you know, and they and they had to win the japanese trials. I mean, we had a four time world champion from japan. This is when world championships was every other year.

And this is shows of shows of fuji. And he was the greatest middle way of all time and never got to participate the olympics because he lost the japanese trials twice in two olympic you know, possibilities. So um you know he had to qualify for japan and then go to the olympic games and then do IT there, you know so sometimes some of the best people in japan can't get outside of japan.

Look at the situation they had with the abbey and then they had um mariama mariama was uh and abbey were both the best by far in the end, sixty six kilos category. This is for the last olympic games and they sent one to the world champ or ships one to the olympic a games. And they both one gold medals know.

yeah yeah. Mean, that's why the the algerian chain is, like, legendary. But there's these battles. Yeah, they would more and all of them.

well, abban and miliana. They they had a trials in the code cam. I was twenty six minutes.

I think IT was twenty six minutes. They went. They were battling in out twenty six minutes.

That's great. If we can just go to you've try in japan. What are those around dories?

Like what I was that training like? I touched on the danger that that danger of being thrown when you get hold of somebody, or somebody gets hold of you.

And I often reflect, I often talk about IT when I commentating, you know, because I can see immediately, you know, easy isn't, you know, we're in the commentary chair or if you in the coaches chair and you don't really understand totally, have absolutely what's going on when you're being somebody y's being out great and when they're in danger of being thrown. I mean, you know if you're in danger of being thrown, the first thing you do is sticky backs. I now and defend, but you know, by not being in the position they they want you to be in, alright? And so that's danger.

You know, you feel the danger. And so in japan, that was the place I used to go to train because I felt the danger. And so.

My defenses would be heightened. And so somebody that was, I went to two years, one, one olympic cycle. I went two years to months without having a score on me in any competition.

And then I went to one competition in the european championships, which I won, and I was struggling, although I throw IT and got score down three times in my poll of reality, my first polyface. And I was devastated. I and actually nearly lost the whole competition because I was more modified about being scored on three times when I had been scored on for two thousand and five years.

I had this thing in my head about two and a half years. I ve got, you know, and they are all of a second, right? I'm not unbecoming.

Then you just, you and you go. And I I was almost lost IT, completely lost IT, just so fortunate. Couple of things went my way and just came out and I, C, and scratched my way to the final and won the final. Well, alright, but that was my best match, but I almost lost that.

Well, what do you do with the fact if you're go to japan you're getting saying danger like you probably get get through yeah and what's that .

do to your you again that I know that that was a winning ego that had to adapt. I remember we went to the castle with police dojo one time, and they wanted to see they created this a the groundwood d competition, because they wanted to see my me, do the judge like how I I went in and how I yeah the uber, right? They wanted to see how I did IT from underneath over the top. And you just, they created this.

Yeah, they started IT. So.

and then winner stays on. Competition was happening at the case. Jo, so I did about seven, I think of seven in. And then my coach came in and said, notes finished. Let's IT. Now what's finished? You know, I just simply be realized what was going on and I was going, no, no, no, no. Don't stop IT like and and IT was one of those moments where, you know, the boot was on my for you could say, you know, rather than the other s on the other way because I had been to japan in situation.

Remember as a sixteen year old, I I got such I got such A A drumming um from one of the japanese guys, older students and he had a gold tooth and so he was go to to me, you know and he was my nightmare and I I remember kept coming out to fight him because he kept throwing me and and I was crying and I was upset and I was like and then that was another occasion where uh I got dragged away and I to know and so I wanted to go back and fight him and I went back to the same dojo every year to fight him. He was on my mind morning, new night. He was on my mind.

The goods was on my mind now. And the two years later, I I was to two years to me, from sixteen to eighteen was totally different. Eighteen years of age, I was pretty competitive with them. And I was like, you know, I was standing up with them. Nineteen, he was in the ground work competition.

And that's when the switch happened.

Sweet happens, you know, because I just, but because I remember getting the on lock and and he didn't put IT on immediately. I needed IT to last. He had to last. So I spread at the the whole thing lasted as long as I could possibly get IT and IT was A A long memory, yeah, as I was looking .

down at him. And now he has not merry about you. I want to what nickname .

he has for you. He remembers me.

You know, IT probit .

doesn't say he does not back in island, doesn't say a thing about IT.

Well, I mean, can you just speak to that training with those folks? You know, he said, crying, just the frustration of being throwed. Yeah, what how do you such a beautiful part of the process of becoming great. Yeah.

I think I think IT is just something that you you know that doesn't happen at this level. You know we were talking about levels and then at this level later never happened. And then I went out in my first european could and and all of a sudden I wasn't the his top guy.

I was in the mix and then I had to work myself to the top of that mix and then to the top of the next one, you know, because I went to the european senior championships. And you know again, you're not the top and know you you wait to the top of that. And and I think IT is a frustration, you know but I think it's that kind of hatred of losing and and also um being out of control.

I think the first time first senior european championships, I thought I thought never of, but he was only one of my contest. Then I had to fight a frenchman for third place, but he totally output me. And and I remember I was more upset if, though I won the contest, I was more upset that he totally out, he did upgrade me and and I was more upset than I found a year later and outgrown ed him. All right. So IT IT was IT was one of those, you know, IT was a learning .

process all the way through yeah that like frustration is like whatever that does your your soul the building up afterwards is what actually makes you Better is fascinating. And you think there is in japan just killers there there like just the world doesn't know about that.

Yeah, it's well, champions in the dog. You know, these people that never make IT out. Yeah, I remember her. We were training, right? So and everybody that that goes to japan, all my friends might have been, well, epic champions rather that I won't know what i'm talking about.

They know exactly who i'm what i'm saying is that when we go to the do joes there, we all get thrown by people that never come out to be world champions. You that they're just in the mix or they're going through three years of university. Then they go we had a guy we had a guy that came in, he came, he was business guy came yeah the suitcase in his briefcase like that.

He's going to like that and he so he decides he's onna come in and he he gets chance and he is in his a lunch hour is in his lunch hour, got to be so he comes in and he goes through he's working his way through the hole of the british team, all right? Yeah, just working his way through all of the great day. And I knew it's my turn next.

So try. I get hold of him and I thrown immediately. And then IT was what we were talking about when IT happens in the first human a few seconds of the practice.

So then I had four minutes of him coming at me, and I ve going up into the air, and i'm twisting off. And I like, and then like, everybody's laughing at the side of the the whole british team is gone through the old british team. And then he, ten minutes later, time is tie up like that, you know, and I back to work like that, you know, imagine it's sitting behind this desk is computer?

yes? Yeah, yeah. I'm gladiating .

get out coffee. He listens .

to this.

Hopefully anybody .

else I didn't mention as part of the .

grades that just kind cats is the the my favorite of all favorites. He is what I would call a judo genius. I don't know if you can get him up here. Can we get him up? yes.

So go into one hundred and eighty one world championships and and I talk you through the great cash was actually he was one year, uh, in great britain and he was he was a guy that was so much a genius. Alright, so you want the final of the under sixty sixty five kilograms there. The one at the, this is him.

He is two weight category below my wake category that I won the world chat ships same year. I want to. So this is it's not I not sure if this is gonna .

is final of time .

to watch this this, this this he did in the find in the file of the .

world listened. He did incredible sacrifice through yeah.

And then he was on top for the for the new I and renowned ed for a groundwork. And he he was on top of against a really strong romania guy. Alright, so his transition was just phenomenal.

Yes, let me let me go back and look at that just happens.

So he's just showing you so he does this coach you think just creates space and IT is follow through into into groundwork that is best of all. And then the remaining m really strong, like I say, he gone all the way through to the final of the world champion, winning most VIP on, I think, the romanian and is defending really, really well here. And you can see that how persistent he he knows exactly what he wants.

He's just got ta get his leg out. I watch you tie the armour and then he'll pull the top leg towards them and then he'll push the bottom one off. Always working with both things, always working, always working, uh, read just the baLance still one like trapped final of the world championships. Good referee because he's reference ing something here that's happening you know that's gonna decide us to weather so he doesn't call IT to stand IT up at all watching. Pull the top one now and they will push the body bottom one.

There's a calmness on his face. Great to see.

Come pushes the bottom leg, leg out. Job done, authorized. This is him again, what this this is another technique that he and then just again, sacrifice directly in directly into the newser .

transition. Is everything .

you yeah no, in anything really.

But you was especially pays off.

yeah. I mean, because we haven't got that long. I mean, we had more time here. They've just brought more time backs. So we've got more time to transition in and to get the situation that we want and and to get the attacking situation that we want.

Because, you know, remember, I was teaching in amErica to work and judge to guys, and they were saying I would never give you a back. And I said, with juda rules, certain situations IT happens that, you know, when we try and do throws where we're facing away from our opponent, you know. So like, for example, c nags, if they fail, then the back is there. You know, that's how we get the back and different situation. You know then going on you back in the guard situation.

totally different. There are travel student. I don't know how familiar with his judo, but he's a really interesting example because he competed the high love and just as well and his idea he's a big thing, archive a and he basically through all that way.

he in the g .

in the like, he took the sport from scratch for what IT is. So is he almost never did a standing. And I just and argues at all, and you just so .

no because they would believe is back all the time you know if if IT failed, yeah he wouldn't have the same kind of grip on the the judging or or the current in the judge again yeah a .

be different and he had to kind of consider the sport, the art of IT and also the competitors, the styles and the culture, the sport, if you, anna, win, if winning is the most important thing.

well, you that's what he did. He did. He learned the game, you know, no, I think that is credit to him. Know that's why i'm saying about are the restless we good to learn the judo and for what IT is in the mechanics and and how IT works and then learn the resting.

I mean, I do the commentary as well for the freestyle, and I will be at the olympics for the freestyle and the greco roman. So and I love the freestyle, absolutely love IT. But freestyle is freestyle. You as i'd like to see people anga.

yeah, but there's a there a rime to the whole combat thing there. I mean, the body mechanics, it's all like fascinating echoes of each other in interesting ways that the details are different. But there are still two humans clashing yeah.

if we've got some amazing crossovers with the people like the the mongolians have come in georgians. Many georgians do massive pick ups and different techniques. And you know if you asked the fighters whether, you know, grabbing the legs, you know, a lot of them would say, some of the restless styles know the georgians and the and the mongolians might say, yeah, i'd like to be able to tape the legs, but you know, a lot of them just adapted. You get eli ads, for example, he just adapted. So either I love take my ARM of the top and i'd just rip up out the floor that way yeah, they're still .

doing the big list. They're still doing a the big ripping. But they are. They just don't grab below the legs yeah where they figured .

that out and they fired IT out like that?

Yeah, you think they take a long time? No.

like a month? Yeah no. Exactly the .

highest level is crazy. Ah so you mentioned judge to a little bit what you use an interesting difference between giga and judo that you've observed because you're one of the greatest ever on the on the ground and judo. And so you know gj zu is primarily focused on similar type of stuff on the ground. So what do you use an interesting .

difference there? There are a different approach, different time scale to to them and they're a different way in. So like hours comes from a standing position directly in. We've got a time scale on IT.

So we we have to like the catch what I I always talk about the catch because in geo terms, if you don't get the catch immediately and the referee won't see that the transition in and also the continuation from plan A, B, C, D, you know, if something build. So we have to build IT and we we have to build IT quickly. And I think in judge items, you have more time to build there.

There's a kind of patients like of this doesn't work out and try a different thing. Would you do others like an urgency like this? And there's a ref washing sceptically. So you Better show that you are making progress.

You've gone to show the progression. And that's why you know always had a plane. Abc, you see there with the you know that was ninety, eighty one there.

The great cash was actually was had a, had a progression. You know, everything was he knew exactly where he had to be. IT was feel that wasn't by accident. IT was IT was trained. And I think that that transition there and taking control of somebody y's mistake so somebody might have made a mistake or not hit properly, or your defenses caused them to make a mistake. And then you take advantage of and that is the difference.

So one of the side effects of that, I don't know with the chicken or the egg, but people on the ground are much more aggressive. So probably because the urgency, but just like there's an intention behind the progress of making, I think you get to uh is more relaxed. There's more uh uh a culture of just finding places to relax and think of different control and positions and take your time and as a result as much, much less exhAusting so you can go for much longer feels like judo is exhausted.

is at ten second blast isn't you know it's it's like doing springs all the time, you know and that that is really hard and that's a special kind of condition you need and you need to be able to catch IT. No, when to go, when not to go. And I think also, I know I was gonna you you think IT make a difference.

I mean, certain do you get to you can't just throw yourself on your back, you know, into the guard. You you have to throw into the situation, you know me so you have got, I mean, I know rodd gracie, he he, he decided that he was gonna learn judo. He he saw the importance of being able to throw for the transition in. And so he came to buddhi and he was learning of ray Stevens. And you know, they were they were doing really a lot.

Yeah well, he is a fascinating study because he's has the most basic stuff and he does just like this, like what another level of, well, it's like, everyone know what's coming with harrogate y but he just does IT anyway against the best people in the world is crazy. He's like, everybody is so a White boat learns the technique is using, and he just doesn't.

But he has about a thousand ways that.

yes, yeah, I mean, in and the thousand ways is in the details. So kind of might even look the same to people but there's I mean, he finds a way to joke people so he's on top and mounted yeah and a sort of you to paint position and you know everyone knows was coming next against the best people in the world and you should be able to defended but nobody can is crazy.

I think there's the power element as well. You know that you don't realize how you know when somebody he's directed in a particular way, then you have that kind of element of of absolute power. You can only feel like, like when Roger is doing a technique.

I think that you will only feel that if we did IT on you, you know, then you can feel that it's not something that happens. You like, so tricks is one thing, but actually been able to do something really well from a powerpoint of view. You know, it's like like you say, he only does those few things, but he has some really, really.

really well, I don't know what that is about. Actually, geno pins is a very interesting case study as well because people are able to feel so heavy. One of the things you do are able to do pin extremely well. Yeah and IT makes you realize it's not about the way it's about some kind of technique that makes people feel like they wait a thousand pounds.

It's it's about White distribution, air and change of baLance. You know a lot of people don't realize that there's huge changes of baLance on the ground, massive. You know you know what it's like you, I mean, you know you're judge so man and and you know the detail of the techniques is what really interests me.

You know I mean, i'm always looking small ideas. I'm not always looking at the judit. So and I just if fascinates me, you know I went have done judge for sure, but I wouldn't forgotten the the judo weigh in to the techniques.

You mean that I think that you've got to differentiate the two, but I would have I would have loved the judge. I would have absolutely loved that, you know, but I wasn't as prominent then you know, the. Where then I was, I came from, I came from a mistake. Me get in, beaten in a particular contest, and I went, i'm not gonna be waiting again. good.

That's how IT happened. yeah. Well, yeah. The story of your life is like a loss creates the teens rises well, IT IT just IT .

was one thousand nine hundred and seventy eight and IT IT was, you know, IT wasn't a mistake. IT was A A particular movement. And I was fighting weight up from what my Normal. But I I stayed the same position for one second too long, got caught and just, sanaa, yeah, triangle, triangle, triangle 哇。 And I I said, I literally just the same as I said to you, when I said i'm not going drink anymore, I came off and I said, i'm never gonna get caught on the ground again and I never lost in in my own competitive career again.

wow. But yeah, I shouldn't mention that there's nothing like a pain from a from A G to person. I don't actually know if people judges of made sense of that like loaded that in.

But it's not part of it's not part of the game as IT you know the .

pin is submission yeah but ero all is part of the game, right? And nobody controls a human body the way you know people do on the ground like they have understood the size of control. And I think that controls extremely useful in this is as well, is just that people don't because there's so many other domains of exploration.

But the I mean, just and especially when you applied just to the fighting setting. So mix martial arts that control, that site control, that pint control is really, really, really important. So but then you add punching to the thing that because that put a .

whole different thing on IT doesn't I mean.

there's an altera history. You would have been part of the early users if time was a little different. You know, maybe a few years later, because your, your, your style of judgment in the transitions in the aggression, all of that would work really well in the early uf. c.

I'm sure I was being set up at one stage by one of the Graces. And that was when when he was winning all the matches, but he came him with with a couple of the cousins to one of my seminars yeah and he was one of the first ones, wasn't he? That that's that's how I love to see the kind of uf c, because IT was different martialists different skills.

And you know, I know he get close and he just choke him out or unlock them more. You know, i'm about them. And that was that was brilliant.

That was for me, that was a revelation. That was how I saw IT. Yeah.

it's a fascinating science experiment, which aspects of different martial art work well, and not when they clash together. And IT IT did turn out that they was a and yeah.

I was I was a big missing .

link in the r conception of fighting. It's the neutralizer of size. Yeah, a lot of other components and just blue people's mind like, okay, it's not just our size is not just about big, big guys swinging the hands.

It's it's a lot of other components. And the ground work is really, really important. And of course, there's a huge doctor that succeeded in the U.

S. C. Since then, which is always interesting call. They adapt to without, you know, we take off the key. How can you still throw people? How can you still do control? How can you still take advantage of the transition on the ground around? Is a good example, somebody that to can .

advance that. Yeah I think one of the biggest things for the judo, Chris, we've never you know there's no strikes and I think that's the biggest um shock if you wish. You know when you get the face, you get punch in the face and and and you you're not used to that. You know that's that's not what we're used to.

Some people are able to get punching the phaedo oot than others yeah for sure. But then again, there's around rosy who doesn't need to get portion in face, just gets in close those a person or by right there.

That's another .

incredible person. He could have probably been winning olympic metal after olympic tal, but chose to.

What do you know? SHE decides. I mean, round as well. Whatever they decided to do there. They're great athletes. If they hate losing, I don't know anybody that hates losing more than those two. Yeah, I don't like .

IT and kill her. And like, I don't know anybody that works as hard as her. That's a crazy, crazy, crazy work, I think.

Well, let me ask about training again. Jimmy pedro says he learned a lot from you. He learned how to do A A I ocean that the arbor jatoi.

But he also learned from new training methodology. So what's he talking about? He told me about this.

what? What, what? What's your approached training through your career? And as a developed.

I always wanted to train harder than anybody else. I still train now every day I don't train, do something I do, do an hour of my physical work. And I still go on the mat little bit.

You know, i'm sixty five now, 依照 i'm not doing really heavy stuff on the map， but I still like to train. And when I was twenty one, twenty after thirty, I was one of the best trainers. But you know, Jimmy peo was one of the best trainers as well.

He was one 那个， he's one of your dream athletes. You know, when Jimmy pedro step three door and he was just a kid, know he was like, was just Young when he stepped through my door. And I had a lot of full time training.

So I had up to twenty really good athletes that were training hard. And I only wanted hard training, has given me ten the train hard rather than you one prem madona that you know, yet skillful one that you know credulity. I just, I want to tend, you know, or twenty really hard trainers because you can do so much with them.

You can make champions. You can make the world champions. You know, if you got somebody that was a special talent and they wanted to work hard, then you had a special.

after what we say, heart trainers, what I mean, these people that, just like every single day, are able to just ground and I do and door do the train do, though the boring things just keep .

coming and going, get tough, you know. And I think that was in, he had a special mentality, you know, when the thing is, you see, when you got him in your dojo, right, even when you tired, when somebody is tired, when you know that, what an example to the others. So he'd pulled the other ones in as well.

So I, so I I had somebody that when everybody was tired and everybody was sick of IT and everybody just wanted, you know, I need still be there, you know, that they had to do that. So that was for me, win, win. You know, so he, I had all the americans actually had a Bobby burton, and I had Michael swan, and I had ed lidy, and had them all coming to visit me at different times.

Jimmy was there, you know, they wanted to be the best in the end. We had such A A great club atmosphere. They wanted to come for the hard work.

And they knew that if they came, they were going to be dragged out, and we were going to do physical training, and its physical training like they hadn't done before. But IT wasn't just a physical training with the judea's, the and the skills side of IT as well. And so I always had a great empathy with the us.

Team, olympic team. So a lot of your olympic medalist son have been through with me, you know and so i'm i'm proud of that because we had some great times and they're still great mates now. And and so in new york, in a couple of weeks time, i'm going to have everybody is going coming in.

old friends and new friends. So what what's a tough week look like at your peak? Physical training? Rand doy a is a day off A A training like twice a day.

twice today. So we do the preparation training, we do the running, we do the weight training, we do the skills in the morning as well. The skills is, for me, one of the biggest advantages that any full time trainers can have. Because what happens is, is that with most clubs, you are trying to fill everything into that are and a half or two hours, you know you fit skills, you fit your your physical training and your your sparing and you you know everything's in their own group in. So the biggest advantages of having a full time group is that you can split your skills and skills, lay your foundation. So the biggest advantage is being able to work specifically on things without having to worry about getting to do your free, you know, your rory or your you're sparring or then you're got to go out for you just do these skills.

that skills like what, say, your specials are, what are we talking about, the would you call me doing a bunch faced or the working with bands that you're doing throws that you actually just having conversations about like specific s like tiny details of throws like what what are skills mean?

All those things about doing you a repetition practice, making your repetitions correct. You know, there's good repetition.

So when we say good repetition, is that would you call me? When you just fitting the throw veris doing IT throw, what do you land on the value getting IT moving know?

So one of the biggest, most important things is getting IT moving. If we do something static, again, it's that static target. You need to get IT moving. So you need to do a repetition. And also you need the correct repetition.

Because if you're doing hundred, the repetitions that are not correct and repetitions under pressure, too much pressure without somebody overseeing those skills to make sure that you correct the skills. Because if you're doing a school, if you do ninety nine times incorrectly, all right, then repetition doesn't make perfect. Repetition makes permanent.

So you going to make as perfect as you possibly can. So actually, that skills group, there is the most important thing. And what I used to do is over see IT. So i'd oversee IT to make sure that IT was done properly.

Watching the foot work, you watch me griping and just constantly adJusting people.

I give you example. Jb pedros, jimmie was one of the hardest when he was nineteen years of age, right? So I was always asking me to practice always. There is always on me all the time. So I did ground with with them.

And could I put him on his back? Now I was all animal and you'll tel you in over but he was just wouldn't go IT was just IT was gonna be great without a dot, right? So I wanted everybody yg with him.

Everybody, so everybody went on with them, you know, only improved their game and he improved him. And then with you, small technical things that have stayed with him that we were doing with the judicatory my that is passed on to caller and then gone on, you know, to render. And it's all small things that I can see sometimes that, you know, it's passed on.

What about the tire? Oi, he said he'd learned a lot from you.

And so I should .

mention that one of the trick or a though I be, I don't I still do IT .

is to I don't .

understand. So for people don't know a boy, how do you even explain IT? IT doesn't make any sense. It's when you just look so low, the movement you make is very good, quite simple. But uh, how you get person to be off baLance, how you uh actually get them to uh be thrown and when you do through is successfully IT looks like a wapping motion that's effortless. IT makes no sense.

IT makes no sense other than it's every technique starts with the hands. So it's what we call caushi and you know you're pulling for somebody off baLance, getting the moving, pulling them off baLance. H tie tosi means body drop, so it's basically uh two legs across your partner's body. Well, i've got my back to you, right? And i've already pulled you off, baLances my hands and then i'm gonna just flex my legs up just as you're coming onto my back and and then you're onna go over you know if I coordinated, all right, if IT, if IT doesn't get coordinated right, then you're going to come right up back and try to .

write my ARM off. Yeah, was if you can put, convert IT towards some secret ingredients that allows you to pull IT off at the highest levels, the, the.

the hands start every technique. So getting the repetition right, first of all. So you need to get the repetition right.

You need a good partner. So actually, training your partner to react in the right way is just as important as learning the throat. So actually what happens is, you know, we could get a lesson of beginning.

We teach the throat, and then go right off you go. And ninety percent of them will get IT wrong because their partner not reacting in the right way. So half of IT is to get the person to react as they should.

So if I was doing IT with you, you and I, I am. First thing I teach you to do is to react the way I want you to react, and then i'd react the way that you want me to react. Alright, so then we'd have success with that, rather than you leaning back in the wrong way or resisting, or frightened going over. So, you know, so actually that's why nine times out of ten people get the technical wrong.

It's actually fascinating to me because in the united states where I came up to, I mean the level judeo is not comparable to the judo in the rest the world. Um of course, the page or centers an exception to that. So is when I trained recently, would you me page like even like sixteen year old kids are just all deadly.

So was terrifying. Uh, but if I remember the russian national team came through the out there and want to think that really impressed me is just how much easier judeo was training you with them. They moved correctly as like OK as the people getting thrown.

Every aspect of their body movement was correct in terms IT felt right to be throwing them, to be training with them. Everything about the griping, about the position of their hips, about the solder, everything was, I was fun IT was easy and like, and I was felt like I was learning. I think all of that is loaded in, I guess, into proper training. You're developing through the throws.

You're develop, develop between, you know, I was had training partners that are trained with up to each olympic games, and we we work together. We did the skills together. And then we we work together in in order to make techniques work. And we got IT moving as quickly as we could. And one of the worst things that I see is and I see a lot of youtube stuff with them, coaches on don't even start me on .

that but you ask because .

you know what? I'm i'm actually .

laughing because i'm enjoying you talk and trash but talk about technique yes.

yes. Well, you know, you know, the coaches and the clipboard guys know with the clip boards and the stop watches, and you know, they got these kids running up and down the math and then doing ucci of of something that technically incorrect you ten times, and then running up and doing another ten at the other side and actually mixing everything together .

and it's .

just a mess.

Yeah that said, some of IT is conditioning type stuffy. You'll doing so what what is like the hardest type of physical condition you're doing .

probably run too much. When I was a, when I was a kid, if I could go back now, I wouldn't run as much and I run hard. And I ran strong and remember in london marathon one time, and I said I never gona do IT again. I had never, but I ran, you know, and I I was trying to. The problem was, when I did the london marathon is I was trying to beat three hours.

That desire .

was insane. You know, he was insane. I went out through half marathon in what I thought was a good time. Anyway, I got to sixteen and seventeen miles and totally blue.

And I think you were out too fast.

Yeah, and too fast.

And then you.

I died. Absolutely just, I died like, I I got in. I cross the lie like that member in this bridge over the right.

And the bridge IT was the finishing line over the bridge, and like to get there was the longest bridge of ever, ever walked over. And I walk, run like, so I got over the bridge and I take one step over the the line like that. And there was a guy over there.

He was trying to rush everybody through through, you know, was, come, come, come on, people behind. Get you off me. Yeah, just off me now I because we're going all out, you and I couldn't move. I couldn't move. I was White.

And the mainly made IT .

to the got over there. And, you know, I have Donald duck passing me, was was a.

was a tale of a person.

yeah. But the thing was, I still crossed over three thirty eight. I crossed over three thirty eight, but I lost thirty eight minutes in the last four miles.

That bridge, long bridge.

so are running a little bit differently. But we ran, we ran hard. We did the weight training.

We did good weight training. IT was all conditioned. So I mean, IT was never the same training all the time.

So I was always, we'd have certain phases building up. IT was scientifically done. IT wasn't just out there run weight training judo, saying judo all the time. IT was always pretty scientific.

good variety.

IT was a good variety. And IT had built up. And IT had a speed phase. And I had a power phase. And I had like a base condition.

What about the dory? Was there a uh A A method to the madness there? How shandor did you do a lot?

So the most important thing for me, um I mean, I see now that there's a lot of people out there that are not getting enough render, they're not rendering enough and there's a lot of sports science people and they they're running in their weight training and they are they're doing IT all to death and there's not enough judeo. And the only ones you think of, like you have a look at some of the the eastern block countries are getting together.

They have in these mass camps. And the japanese, they have no just massive people that they can do there. And they're doing probably fifty, sixty render is a week, fifty or sixty a week.

wow.

The average person is getting together. I mean, when I was doing randomly, when I went to japan, IT was just purely for sixty and is a .

week how much? How long?

So there were five minutes then there four minutes now.

But that's a lot, especially the level petitioner what you .

can do in japan because it's fairly light. They throw throw you throw that .

there's like a level of like you're moving and like a close one hundred percent. But the actual power in the force is not .

quite different in korea. Korea was harder IT was more physical that you couldn't do fifty around us in korea. You do.

You die. yeah. So you thirteen? wow. But you, you need I.

And so I chased the renders. So I chased them into training camps. I chased them all over my country.

So I I was getting forty to fifty a week in my club, and then I would go to training camps and add more. And I honestly don't think that they do enough. Now, a lot of countries.

somebody who doesn't know dories live training.

So yes, boring.

Was there a few people you remember? There were just like, really tough to go gans you mention gold tooth. I like .

this is pretty horrific.

So you got I in .

the end and yeah good like I supose .

I suppose I say not just tough but just good training partner that you great .

training partners. I remember a niche to and niche do was I mentioned him earlier, said he was one of the best. I mean, he was just such a great technician. So I I would go there to his dog and he asked me to practice. And he always finish the practice.

And you know that he would always say, another one, we've another one, right? So you, god, yeah, because you had to make out that we weren't that bothered, that you had to do another one. So you do another one back to back and then he goes, sometimes let's do another one. So we'd end up to fifteen minutes with the same guy who could possibly throw you any time, you know and that was hard yet also. But I remember those particular um guys and there were plenty of those.

What do you do with the exhaust that you're feeling in those? Like how how deep did you go in the deep?

And I I think that that was the great thing about having certain and like european training camps were more physical. So I remember you know that we would have a european training camps where you'd fight germans and then the touch, and then the french, and then you know the russian, or you have all thoughts, different styles and people there to fight. And that that was something then you you'd have to dig in at a different place.

So where do you go mentally? When you, how many times have you gone? There were like, you're really in deep waters exodus in in competition, actually .

competition it's happened you so sometimes you go past way if four arms are absolutely blow and remember the final of check uh tournament that we had and uh for the frenchman, uh in the final and my forums was so blown I couldn't shake his and, you know and then I remember the solid, absolutely solid, and they are active acid in and and I remember I stood on the restroom, this a and and they were giving me things and I couldn't grip them properly.

So I was say, pretty under my unit, you know, just trying to hold this. I couldn't hold anything, you know. So there there are times when I really have to go really deep. Remember fighting to east germans the same day, one of the competitions, and the number one of the number two is germans. And that was another day where I do really dig deep.

That's the fascinating about some internment. You if you get if you go full distance and several matches and row that we are seeing in the finals are two people that have like for a lot that you and we .

have go to school now, you know. So we see a lot of guys, you know, they are going to go in score and y've done one context four minutes, and then they go another four minutes, and then, you know, we've had some go into a third four minutes that is all back to back. IT might be in the first round.

IT might be in the final. And we've got some now that are coming out. And you can see the stats and the ones that winning golden school.

So we got japanese hashimoto, he's the japanese representative. And now, uh, instead of ono, because, oh, is finished. So asia motors coming out, he was in a tournament last week .

and he went to look up here.

I just have a look at him. So has SHE moto in White here, right? And it's a great example there. Well, i'm glad we got on to that. So I mean, he has got great technique for moto.

There's a try pushing directly.

You can see exactly what we're talking about, that great timing. And again, you know sometimes he backs them up to the edge and then you will wait for them to come back in towards that. I want to step out to get a penalty.

I guess that's a cross roup total.

Yeah, cross crip different groups. Great examples there. What we were talking.

making a look. So please. wow.

So he's gonna their representative at seventy three kilograms, looking and backing up again and again, just catching a as he pushes back.

Push, push.

Then the action reaction of his best there. yeah. And slight change of her direction he cut, sometimes goes down onto his knee there, which is sea toshi IT turns from tire toy, which is springing up to sea toshi. That's going .

down the the title, the video is a his title.

She's a work of art. yeah. This is him at his best, showing him doing what he does best. But he had to go three times into golden score last week and dig deep and lost one of them, I think. But you're still going at IT.

You talk about all those training sessions. I nicky, wonderful wife, told me that you were looking. You were going all over, like from targets, target, looking for work out clothes because your luggage to get lost because you had to get work out.

And yeah, you know what? I I realized that if i'm a miserable get right, then you'll get me to get me into the gym, you know. So and the thing is, i'm Better if I get in there for an hour, and I just do something at least thirty, thirty five to forty minutes cardio, and then I do some weights and more higher repetitions. It's not so much heavy. Wait now, but more functions.

You travel all over the world for the commentary of competitions. See, you is IT sometimes the chAllenge to figure out .

how well you know where during cover they closed all the games, but we were still going out. We were some one of the first ones out. The judeo was some of the first out.

The competitions were behind closed doors. So we were in the hotel, the gym was closed, so we couldn't use the gyms. So we had to look for other ways that we could work out.

So most of the hotels that we were in were high rise hotels. So we were in the steps. We were doing the steps, all right, the way up here.

So I started IT and and so I did started off with me going up and then want to to the others. And the referee started to go up with me. So in the end we'd have this trail of people going up the steps down.

And every place we went to, we had the steps. So yeah, that was an interesting situation. So we were sicker steps in the end.

I what advice would you give to beginners, people starting on in you to how to um how to develop their game, how to find a building in the sport, in the art of genre .

if you put ten people in a room and said, right, get on with IT yeah, you d have maham right? And I think that wherever, whatever sport you're doing, you need good instruction, good teaching and a good club atmosphere. You know, somewhere that's not at so intense that a winning is the the only thing.

And I think that if you look at ninety percent of the people that practice martial arts, I don't IT for pleasure. So they want to get pleasure. So you need a club that got a bit of a mixture.

They've got a direction to go into competition if they want. And and then the rest is for fun and and to enjoy IT. But with really good instruction because with really good instruction and a good foundation and a good base, you get more enjoyment because you, you know you you, you have more success. And let's be honest, you know, the more success we have with something, the more we like IT.

yeah. And great technique is a way to really discover the beauty of the art. And so great teaching is really .

important there.

Great teaching is so important. What about what does IT take to get from there? Early days when you started to to to world class level.

I think that with most of thing you do here, don't you know somebody y's been doing you over three years, and then they are in. And I think IT happened. One of the french jao, SHE went to the olympic games in two thousand and twelve, and sh'd been doing judo for eight years.

But then SHE started to lose, you know? So SHE had a relative success early on, and the olympics was one of them. SHE got to sell a medal, but then SHE went off the boil and then he came back.

And now she's been there. She's still competing and she's been there for well over thirteen years at the very top. So I think that, you know, any foundation is like anything, if if you lay a really solid foundation, generally last longer .

yeah that that foundation against that technique or what what is IT take to .

build a foundation? I think technique you get away with murder with technique you can get away with having bad condition, you know. But I mean, you get found out in the end, but you can you know you can go out and you can win certain things by doing really nice technique. But I think if you've got the next year, if you ve got the whole package, then you can, you know go the whole way.

So for people somehow don't know, you've commentate some of the greatest general matches ever. You've done grand praise. You're done all these events, olympics, championship, everything. So what what just looking to history of you to what like stands out you, what even stand out to you? What are some good memories that pop your head?

I think, you know, some of the paris tournaments are amazing because the crowd there there, you know, they're on the math there, they're judo. Ca, they they are well educated to the sport. Every time somebody twitches you, they're very biased towards their own, which is kind of you expect.

But you know, sometimes I haven't been able to hear myself speak, and that's very unusual. You know, you got the headphones on and you have blocked out, you know, like sometimes telling when there has been walking out there crowd to go crazy and and they're on the feet, you know, when somebody twitches and and then you get the crowd silences. We had one of those last week. Everybody's cheering their man and then .

bank their man, goes over the silence.

Nothing like. And course we were. We were commentating. We go, that was a bit of a crowd silence, you know. But yeah, that happens.

Yeah, that is a surprising thing that this was to me that paris and friends is really big and you to massive.

you know, and it's always surprises. You know, it's like paris is great. In japan for the olympic games, the biggest surprise was oho getting beaten in the team event.

Now ono is the greatest, you and pound for pound, probably one of the best anyone, the olympic title. And then they went into the team event against france. And ono lost to a not is not run of the mill german, but the german, you know, he wasn't certainly olympic title esk and. Yeah, the team.

the team stuff is fast. He changed the dynamics of the whole thing. Yeah, and it's me. It's funny. Say, paris IT IT really makes IT really big deal that this olympics is being held in paris.

Theyll be the team to be french time, because they have the best baLance of the White category. They have the best baLance with their people that are world olympic champions and qualified men and women. There are three, three men, three women. They have the best baLanced of anybody.

And educated .

audience.

educated audience. Home grounds, well, is all right, get nervous. I get ervy.

I get eras. I get .

nervous right now. But you are given especially because it's the olympics and you don't want to um you want to celebrate people properly, right? And it's like, is everything for them? yes. And a lot of people, especially like the finals matches, yes, you know, you'll be watched me know millions of times the highest mistakes all this played over .

and over yeah and I find that you know, with mine now a little bit more carefully. Know like, so I celebrate a massive throw and then have empathy to the one that's been thrown you know because it's not the best feeling in the world yeah in olympic finals yeah you can imagine that yeah must be terrible.

must be terrible.

Yeah we're just reflecting. So now I have a bit of empathy there, and I just, I try and say the right things because they always do come up to me and say, you commentating, my fines.

Yeah, you're the voice of the biggest trials, of the biggest tragedies for these athletes, for the world of watches, and admired these athletes. No pressure hear .

the voice that up .

to your voice is in my head when I wash his you know it's it's it's it's fascinating it's fascinating but you you're master IT it's it's a huge honor ah he will talk with me um thank you for everything you've done for the sport of judo, for the olympics, for the sports in general just celebrating greatness in all of its forms thank you for talking to me. Keep going. I can wait to listen to you.

embarrass. Thank you for having me and it's just been an ona to pay here with you.

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And now let me leave you some words from mea moto masaaki. There's nothing outside to yourself they can ever enable you to get Better, stronger, richer, quicker, smarter. Everything is within.

Everything exists. Seek nothing outside of yourself. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.