#414 – Tucker Carlson: Putin, Navalny, Trump, CIA, NSA, War, Politics & Freedom
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The following is conversation with tucker carson, a highly influential and often controversial political commentator when he was a fox time magazine called him the most powerful conservative in america. After fox, he has continued to host big impact for interviews and shows on x, on the talk, across in podcast and on talker cls in dot com. I recommend subscribing.

Even if you disagree with his views. IT is always good to explore diversity of perspectives. Most recently, he interviewed the president of russia of latimer putin. We discuss this, the topic of russia, putin, navi and the ukraine at links in this conversation. Please allow me to save your words about the very fact that I did this interview.

I've received a lot of criticism publicly, ann, privately, when I announced that I will be talking with tucker for people who think I shouldn't do the conversation or talker, or generally think that there are certain people I should never talk to. I'm sorry, but I disagree. I will talk to everyone as long as they are willing to talk genuinely in long form for two, three, four more hours.

I will talk to putin and to silan ski, to trump and to biden, to talker and to john steward, L. C. Obama and many more people with very different views on the world.

I want to understand people and ideas. That's what long form conversations are supposed to be all about now for people who criticize me for not asking tough questions. I hear you, but again, I disagree. I do often ask questions, but I try to do IT in a way that doesn't shut down the other person, putting them into a defensive state where they give only shadow talking points. Instead, i'm looking always for the expression of genuinely held ideas and the deep roots of those ideas.

When done well, this gives us a chance to really hear out the guest and to begin to understand what and how they think in a trust, the intelligence of view, the listener, to make up your own mind, to sea through the bullshit to the degree there's bullshit, and to see to the heart of the person. Sometimes I feel at this, but i'll continue working my eyes off to improve. All that said, I find that this no tough questions, criticism often happens when the guest is a person in the listener simply hates and wants to see them grilled into embarrassing, called the liar, I greedy go maniaci killer may be even an evil human being and saw on, if you are such a listener, what you want is drama, not wisdom.

In this case, the shows, not for you. There are many shows can go to for that with host that her way more careless matic and entertain i'll ever be. If you do stick around, please know I will work hard to do this well and to keep improving. Thank you for your patience and thank you for your support.

I love you all.

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What was your first impression when you met flat important for the interview?

I thought he seemed nervous and I was very surprised by that. And I thought he seemed like someone who, to overthought IT a little bit, who had a plan. And I don't think it's right way to go into any interview. My strong sense, having done all of them for a long time, is that it's Better to know you think to say you know as much as you can, honestly, so you don't get confused by your own lies and just to be yourself and I thought that he went into IT um I can overprepared student and and I thinking why is why is he nervous um but I know I guess because he thought all people we're going to see IT.

But he was also probably prepared to um to give you a full lesson in history as he did well I was .

totally shocked by that and very annoyed because I thought he was phillip string. I thought he I mean, I asked him, as I usually do, the most obvious dumas question ever, which is you know what you do this and um he had said in a speech that I think is worth reading I don't speak question so I I haven't heard in the original but um he had said at the moment of the beginning war he had given his address to russians in which he explained to the first extent we have seen so far why he was doing us and he said in that speech I fear that nato, the west united states, the by administration will prompt vely attack us and I thought that's interesting and I I can't evaluate whether that's a fear rooted in reality or or one region paranoid but I thought, well, that's well, that's an answer right there and so I looked to that on my question and rather than answering and he will have on this long for my perspective, kind of tiresome um sort of greatest hits of russian history and the implication I thought was well ukraine is ours or extreme ukraine's hours already um and I thought he was doing that to avoid danser erin the question so you know the last thing you want in your interview in someone has to get role uh and I just want to be right so I A couple of times erupted impolitely I thought um but he wasn't having and then I thought, you know what i'm not here to prove that i'm a great interviewer is kind of not about me. I want to know who this guy is.

I think the western audience, a global audience, has a right to know more about the guy, and so just let them talk, you know, because it's not know. I don't feel like my reputations on the line. People avoid drawn conclusions about me, I suppose, to extend they have i'm not interested really those conclusions anyway.

So just let talk and so I calm down and just let him talk. And in retrospect, I thought that was really, really interesting. You know, whether you agree with that or not, what do you think is relevant to the warm ukraine or not? That was his answer. And so it's inherently significant.

Well, you said he was nervous. Were you nervous? Were you afraid? This is why Operant.

I wasn't afraid at all, and I was nervous at all.

Did you drink tea before him?

No, I eat my my Normal regime of nick in pouches and coffee uh no, i'm not a tea drinker. I tried not to eat you know all the sweets they put in front of us which is that that is my weakness is eating crap um but you eat a lot of sugar before, as you know, before an interview and and IT does dolly you so I successfully resisted that. But I know I wasn't nervous.

I was in nerve the all time I said, why would I be? You know, i'm fifty four. My kids are grown, I believe in god.

You know not i'm almost never nervous, but um no, I wasn't nerve also interested I couldn't. I you know i'm interested in so big history I studied in in in college, read about at my entire life. My dad, you know worked in the cold war IT was a constant topic conversation.

And so to begin the crime on in a room or style, en made decisions, either more time decisions or decisions about murdering his own population. I just actually couldn't get over IT. We're molotov old office.

So for me that was, I was just blown away by that. I knew, I thought I know a lot about russia IT turns, that I know a lot about the soviet period, you know, the one thousand nine hundred and thirty seven perch trials, the famine, ukraine. I like, I knew a fair man about that but I really knew nothing about contemporary russia west than I thought I did.

I turned out and um but yeah I was just I was just blown away by well, we were and that's kind of one of the main drivers at the stage in my life of you know that that's why I do what I do because i'm interested in stuff and I want to see as much as I can and try and draw conclusions from IT to extent I can so I was very much caught up in nap. But now I wasn't a nervous. I always kill me or something and i'm not particularly failed that anyway.

So not fair or dying. Not really. no. I mean, again, and you know it's it's an age and stage and life thing.

I mean, if I for children, so there were times when they were a little while, I was terrified of dying, because if I died, you would have huge consequences. But now, I mean, at this point, I I don't anna die. I'm really enjoy my life.

But i've been with the same girl for forty years, and I have four children home extremely close to, or now five A A dot 忙。 And I love them on and really close to them. I tell, I love them every day. I know i've had really interesting life.

What was the goal just going on that? What was the goal for the interview? Like how were you thinking about IT? What would success be .

like in your head leading into a to bring more information the public I mean I have really strong feelings about um what's you know happening not just in ukraine or russia but around the world. I think the world is resetting to the grave disadvantage of the united states. I don't think most americans are aware of that at all.

And so that's my view. And i've i've stated at many times um because IT since here. But my goal was to have more information brought to the west so people could make their own decisions about whether this is a good idea.

I know, I just guess I reject the whole premise of the warned ukraine from the american perspective, which is, you know, a tiny group of dumb people in washington has decided to do this for reasons they won't really explain. And you don't have a role in IT at all as an american citizen, as the person whose paying for IT, whose children might be drafted to fight IT know, just shut up and obey. I I just reject that completely. You know what? I think I guess i'm a child of a different era, am a child of participatory democracy.

Some where europe ion is a citizen is not your relevant and um so I am just and I guess the level of lying about IT was starting to drive me crazy and i've said and I will say again, I am not an expert on the regional really any region other than say western main I just don't you know not russian and um but IT was obvious to me that we were being lied to in ways that we're just IT was crazy the alive and also give you an example the idea that ukraine would inevitably win this war now Victory was never as IT never is defined precisely nothings ever defined precisely which is always to tell that the deception of the heart of the claim but um ukraine on the verge of winning I don't know. I mean, i'm hardly attacked or military expert for the fifth time. I'm not an expert on russia or ukraine.

I just a wikipedia. Russia has a hundred million more people than ukraine. A hundred million IT has much deeper industrial capacity, warm material capacity than all of nato combined.

For example, russia is turning out artillery shells, which are significant in a ground war at a rate of seven to one compared to all natal countries combined. That's all of europe. Russia is producing seven times they are Taylor's shells as all of the europe combined.

what? That's an amazing fact. And IT turns out to be a really significant effect, effect, this significant effect.

But if you ask your average person in this country, even if fairly well informed person of good faith was just trying to understand school who's gone to win this war, will craye is gonna win? They're on the right side. And they think that because our media, who really just do serve the interest of the U.

S. Government period, they are state media, in that sense, have told that for over two years. And I I I was in hungry last summer talking to the prime minister, factor orban.

No ever you think he was a very smart guy, very smart guy like smart on a scale that we're not used to um in our leaders and I said to him off camera, so was ukraine GTA win. And he looked at me like I was dragged, like I was deficient. Are they going to win? No, of course they can't win.

It's tiny compared to russia. Russia has a wartime economy. Ukraine doesn't have an economy. No, look at the population. He was like, look at me, like I was stupid. And I said to, you know, I think most americans believe that because nbc news and CNN and all the news changes, all of them tell them that because it's treme exclusively in moral terms and it's church.

Al versus hit, learn, of course, churchill is gonna vail in the end, and it's just so dishonest that even IT doesn't even matter what I want to happen or what I think to happen. That's the distortion of what is happening. And if I have any job at all, sort of don't actually this point, but if I do have a job is to just try to be honest. And that's a why there .

is a more new on discussion about what winning might look like. You're right. A new on discussion is not being had, but IT is possible for you going to call on win with the help of united states.

I I guess that conversation needs to begin by defining terms. And the key term is win. What does that mean?

peace? A ceasefire. Who warns which land? yes. Coming to the table with a, as you call the parent in the united states, yes, putting leverage on the negotiation to make sure there's .

a fairness in well, I of course, as and I should just receive this. I am a not emotionally involved in this. I'm amErica in every sense, and my only interests in america, not leaving ever.

And so i'm looking at this purely from our perspective, what's good for us but I also the human being as a Christian I mean I I hate war and anybody who doesn't hate war um shouldn't have power in my opinion so I agree with those that definition element but a Victory is like not killing an entire generation of your population. It's not being completely destroyed to be eaten up by black rock or whatever comes next for them. So yeah, we were close to that a year and a half ago and the by administration dispatch force, Johnson, the briefly prime minister of the U.

K, to stop IT and to say to slansky, who I feel sorry for, by the way, because he's caught between his forces that are bigger than he is, to say, no, you cannot come to any terms with russia, and the result of that is not been in ukrainian Victory, is to spend more dead ukrainians and a lot of profit for the west is is a moral crime, in my opinion. And I tried to ask boss Johnson that, because why wouldn't I? After he denounced me as a tool of the cramen or something and he demanded a million dollars to talk to me, well, and this just happened last week. And and by the way, in writing to are not making this just the record.

you demanded a million dollars for me to talk .

to me today and you paid um no of course killing but um and I I said to his guy, I said I just never for your putin he was widely recognized as a bad guy and he did IT for free. He didn't demand a billion dollars. He wasn't this for profit. Like are you telling me the boris john is sluiter than vitamin putin? And of course, that is the message.

And so I I guess these are really it's not just about boris Johnson being assad, you know, the patience for SHE is obviously, but it's about like the future of the west and the future of ukraine, this country, that proportion dly, we care so much of battle, people are dying and like, what is the end game? It's also strange that I didn't imagine and don't imagine that I could like add anything very meaningful to the conversation because i'm not a genius, okay? But I felt like I could, at the very least punctual some of the lives. And that's an inherent good blamer pun.

after the interview, said that he wasn't fully satisfied because he weren't aggressive in a fight, sharp enough questions first.

what do you think about him saying that I don't even understand that. I guess IT IT does seem like the one putin statement that western media ticket face value. Everything else putin says is a lie except this criticism of me, which is true. But I mean, I have no idea what he meant by that. I can only tell you what um my goal was, as i've suggested, was not to make IT about me.

I watched you know hasn't done any any interviews of any kind for years but the last interview he did with an english speaking reporter, western media reporter, was, like many of the other interviews he done with western media reporters, mike wally's son did an interview with him that was of the same variety, and IT was all about him. You know, i'm a good person. You rope bad person.

And I just feel like that's the most tire some fruit less kind of interview. It's not about me. I I don't think i'm an especially good person.

I'm definitely never claimed to be but people can make their own judges. And again, the only judges like care about are my wife and children and god. So i'm just not interested improving.

I'm a good person and I just want to hear from him and and I had a lot of I mean, you should see that I was never write questions down, but I did in this case because I had months, I had three years to think about this. I was trying to book the interview, which I did myself. But they were all IT was all about internal russian politics and the vali.

And I had a lot of, I thought, really good questions. And then at the last second, and you make these decisions, as you know, you enjoy people, or often you make them on the fly. And I thought, no, I want to talk about the things that haven't been talked about and that, I think, matter in a worlds stork sense.

And the number one among those, of course, the war and what that means for the world. And um so I stuck to that. I mean, I could again, I did ask about gsc Q.

I felt sorry, foreign. I wanted put him to, released him to me and I was offended that he didn't. I thought his rational was absurd.

Well, we want to trade them for someone I saw that doesn't think about hostage know, which of course, IT does. Uh, but other than that, I really wanted to keep IT to the things that I think matter most. You know, people can judge whether I did a good job and up, but that was my, that was, that was my .

decision in the moment, always you got, did you want to ask some tough questions as follow up on certain topics?

Know what would mean to ask a tough question.

flying questions?

I suppose they would. I guess I just wanted him to talk you know I just wanted to hear his perspective again. I've probably asked more ask all questions than like any living american you know i'm as as has been noted correctly on a deck by my nature and um so I don't I I just feel at this stage of my life I didn't need to prove that I could like.

You know, I think if i'd ve been know thirty four instead of fifty four, I would definitely would have done that because I would have thought this is really about me and need to prove myself on no, I just there's a we're going on that is wrecking the U. S. Economy in a way and at a scale people do not understand.

You start going away. That was, of course, inevitably, ultimately, because everything dies, including currencies. But that death, the process of death, has been accelerated exponentially by the behavior of the by administration in the U.

S. Congress, particularly the sanctions. And people people don't understand the resistance of that are three vacations are poverty in the united states.

okay. So I just I just wanted to get to that um because i'm coming at this from not a global perspective. I'm coming in IT from american perspective.

So imagine of .

all I .

after you left now when he died in prison. Yes, what your thoughts on just at a high level, first about his death?

What's awful? I mean, imagine dying in prison. And I thought about IT a lot. I ve known want people in person a lot, including some very good friends of mine.

So I thought instantly said about IT um from a geopolitical perspective I don't know any more than that and I I laugh at and sort of a exempt moly fun amusing the claims by american politicians who really are the domains politicians in the world. Actually, you know, this happened and here's what that means that it's like actually as a factual matter, we don't know what happened. We don't know what happened.

We have no freak idea what happened. We can say and I did say and I will say again, I think I don't think you should put opposition figures in present. I really don't I don't period um IT happens a lot around the world, happens in this country, as you know and i'm against all of IT.

But do we know how we died? Short answer, no, we don't know. If I had to guess, I would say killing the bali during the munich security conference in the middle of debate, over sixty billion dollars in ukraine funding. Maybe the russians are dumb. I didn't get that while at all, you know I just know I don't see IT but maybe no maybe they kill them. I mean they certainly put him in prison, which i'm against um but here's what I do know is that we don't know and so when shocked tumor stands up and joe biden read some card in front of them with lines about the only it's like I am already to laugh at that because it's absurd you don't .

know IT there's a lot of interesting ideas about if he was killed who killed them yeah because he could be putin IT could be somebody in russia who is not putin. IT could be ukrainians because I would benefit the war.

They killed dugan's daughter in moscow. So yeah, it's possible.

And IT could be a in the states, could also be involved.

I don't think we kill people, other countries, to affect election outcomes to a way. Now we do a lot and half eighty years and it's shameful. I can say that is an american because it's my money in my name um yeah, i'm really offended by that and I never thought that was true and I spent again and my jolly than you and so I spent my my my world view was defined by the cold war and very much in the house I lived in in George washing dc you know that's what we talked about and ah in the left at the time, you know I don't know the Y O M I T professor who I never had any respect for.

I know you've at settle like the hard left was always saying, well, the united states government is interfering in other elections and I just dismissed that completely out of hand uh, as stupid and actually a slander against my country but IT turned out to all be true or or substantially true anyway and that's been a real shock for me in middle to to understand that but anyway, as to violent look, I don't know um but we should always proceed on the basis of what we do know, which is to say on the basis of truth, noble truth. And if you have an entire policy making apparatus that is making the biggest decisions on the face of the planet, on the basis of things that are bullshit or lies, you're gonna get bad outcomes every time um every time. And that's that's why we are where we are.

Does IT bother you that basically the most famous opposition figure in in russia is sitting in prison.

Of course, IT does. Of course he bothers me. I mean, he bother me when I got there, bothers me now, he said when he died. Yeah, I mean, that's one of the measures of it's one of the basic measures of political freedom.

Are you in prisoning people who oppose you? You know, are you imprisoning people who oppose a physical risk? You, I mean, there's some subjective decision making involved in these things, however, big picture yeah ah you have opposition leaders in jail.

It's not a free is not a politically free society and russia isn't obviously. And as I said, a friend of mind from childhood in american actually is a wonderful person, lives in russia with his russian lumosity, with his russian wife. And I had dinner with him.

He's a very baLanced guy, totally non political person, and and speaks russian and loves as many russian children and and loves the culture. And there's a lot to love the culture that proves told toy, no, it's not a gas station with nuclear weapons. Sorry, only a moron would say that it's a very deep culture.

I don't play understander, of course, but I mire who wouldn't but I asked him, I was like living here because it's, you know, it's great moscow is a great city in dispute ability he said you don't only involved in politics I said what he said, well, you could get hurt. You could run back of only if you did um but also just too complicated 的 you know the russian mind is not is not exactly this is a western to european city， does not quite european and um the way they think is very, very complex, very complex it's just it's too complicated. Just don't get involved and I would just see two things one, uh, i'm not shut I mean, I think I don't know, but my strong sense is that novel is death.

Whoever did IT probably didn't have a lot to do with the the coming election in russia. My sense from talking to put in the people around him is they're not really focused on that. And in fact, I asked one of his top advisers wins the election and he looked at me completely confused.

Didn't know the date of the election. okay. She's like a march. okay. Um and I asked a bunch of other people just in moscow who's who's putin running against like nobody know so it's not a real election right in in in the sense that we would recognize at all. Um second, I was really struck by so many things in moscow and really bothered by deeply bothered by a lot of things that I saw there.

Um but one thing I noticed was the total absence of culture personality propaganda which I expected to see and i've seen around the world Jordan for example and we've been Jordan but go to Jordan in every building there are pictures of the king and has extended family and and that's a sign of political insecurity. You know you don't create a culture personality unless you're personally insecure and also unless you're worried about losing a group in power for none of that is interesting. And I expected to see a lot of IT you know like statues important no no statues of anybody other than Christian saint. So that was like, i'm not quite i'm just reporting what I saw um so yes, it's not a in a political sense is not a free country, is on a democracy uh in the way that we would understand IT or I don't want to live there, okay because I like to say what I think in fact, I make my living doing IT 嗯， but it's not stalest in a recognizable way and anyone who says IT is to go there and tell me how I mean .

this question about the freedom of the press is underlying the very fact of the interview you're having with him, right? So you might not need to ask in a of any question, but did you feel like other things I shouldn't say?

I mean, how wonder you want me to be? I mean, IT, when I say I felt not one twins of concern for the eight days that I was there, maybe I just didn't. And I feel like i've got a pretty strong, good sense of things.

I rely on IT and make all my decisions based on how I feel, my instincts and I didn't feel IT at all. Um my lawyers before I left and these are people work for a big law firm. This is not bobs law firm. This is one of the biggest law firms in the world, said you're going to get arrested if you do this by the u an an sanctions violations and I said, why you know, I don't I don't recognize the legitimate if that actually because i'm american and I filtered my whole life and that's so outrageous that i'm happy to face that that risk because I I so reject the premise, okay, i'm in america, I should will tell when I want to and I I planned exercise that freedom, which I think I was born. I gave him a letter.

There are like lawyers, but that was um IT was put this way, I know how much you dial with layers, but IT costs many thousands of dollars to get a conclusion like that like they sent a whole bunch of their some more associated or whatever they said they put a lot of people on this question checa lot of president and I think and they sent me a ten page memon a and their sincere conclusion was do not do this and of course he may be mad so I was lexing on the phone and I had another call with a head lawyer and he said, will look lot will depend on the questions that you ask putting her if you're seen as too nice to him, you could get arrested when you come back and think you're describing a fashion st. country. Okay, you're saying that the U.

S. Government will rest me if I don't ask the questions they won't asked. Is that what you're saying? Well, we just think based on what's happened as possible. And so i'm just telling you what happened.

So you were okay being arrested in moscow.

Didn't think I was arrested. I didn't think for a second. And maybe look, I don't speak russian.

I've never been there before. Everything about the culture was brain new to me. You know, ignorance does protect you sort of when you have no freak idea what's going on.

You worried about IT like this, happy many times. Uh, there is a principle there that extends throughout life. So it's completely possible that I was in grave parallel. Didn't know IT because like, how would I know IT? You know, I am like a bumbling english speaker from california a but I didn't feel IT at all.

but the lawyers did.

Yeah, I need that scared the crap out of people. You're gonna look and I you have been cash. They don't take credit cards because of sanctions.

And you have to go through all these hoops, just procedural hoops, to go to russia, which I was going to you because I wanted interview putin, because I told me I couldn't. But then there's another fact, which is that I was being travailed by the U. S.

Government, intensely travail ed by the U. S government, and this came out. They admitted IT. And a admitted a couple of years ago that they were up in my signal account, and then they leaked IT to the neighs. They did that again before I laugh.

And I know that because two in or times reporters, one of you might actually like a lot um. Said, oh, you're going and called the other people oh, he's going if you put I told anybody that with anybody, my wife, two producers, that's IT. So they got there from the government.

Then i'm over there. And of course, I wanted see who I admire. And so I have, we have a mutual friends, so I got his tax, come on over and and snowdon's want public city at all.

And so, but I really wanted have dinner with them. So we had dinner in my hotel room and at the fall seasons in moscow, and I said, I tried to convince me, I love to help you, sure of my iphone. You know, i'd love to take a picture together, put on the internet, because I just want to show support, because I think he's been railroaded.

He had no interest in living in russia, no intention of being in russia. The whole thing is a lot, anyway, whatever, all this stuff. And he just said, pectine, len, i'd rather not anyone know that we met. great.

The only reason i'm telling you this is because and I didn't til anybody and I didn't text IT to anybody, okay, except him sam sam for um runs this piece saying for reporting information they got from the U. S. Intel agencies leaking against me using my money in my name in a supposedly free country, they run this peace saying i'd met with snow in that, like IT was a crime or something.

So again, my interests in the united states and preserving freedom here, the ones that I grew up with. And if you have immediate establishment that acts as an auxiliary of, or excess employees of the national security state, you don't have a free country. And that's where we are.

And i'm not guessing, because I got my entire life in that world, thirty three years, I worked in big news companies. And so I know how works. I know the people involved in that.

I could name them by Smith of sum forth, among many others. And I find that really objectionable, not just on principle either, in effect in practice. I don't want to live in that kind of country, and people are like the externalized.

All of their anxiety about this, I have noticed. So it's like russia not free. Yeah I know you know others brakin.

Oh, most countries renn free actually. But we are where the united states were different. And that's my concern. Preserving that is my concern.

And so they get so exercised about what's happening in other parts of the world, places you've never been known nothing about. It's almost a way of ignoring what's happening in their own country, right around them. I find IT so strange and sad and weird.

So the N. S. A was tracking you, as do you think he was? Whose is, uh, people still tracking you?

Look, one of the things I did before I went um just because the business, I mean, all of us are in because we live here. You know we all have theories about secure communications channels like signal is secure. Telegraph isn't.

What's episode by mark sucker? You can try ask okay. So I thought you know before I go over here was getting obvious we're having those conversations by producers and I am about this and I decided you i'm just i'm just going actually find out like what's really going on.

So I talked to two people um who would know trust me and as at all I can say and I hate to be like I taught people who know I can you bit I mean that they would know and both things said exactly same thing which is, are you joking? Nothing is secure. Everything is monitor all the time if if state actors are involved and you can keep the you, whatever the malaysian movie from reading your text, probably you cannot keep the big in intel services from me.

Your text is not possible, any of them, or listening to your calls. So and that was the firm conclusions of people who've been involved in IT, you know, for a long time, decades, both in both cases. So I just so you know what I don't OCR I don't care. I'm not sending until and naked pictures of myself, anybody.

not the time.

just i'm fifty four and is probably not too many um but because so like i'm just so the guys I travel with three people I work with I love who have been around the world with for many years and I know them really, really well and they all got you know separate phones and I leave me another phone back in new york kor whatever and I just decided I don't care actually and I resent having to no privacy um because privacy is a process quit for freedom um but I can't change IT and so I have the same surveilled cell one you know I do switch them out because there is uh because if you have too much spyware on your phone this is true IT wrecks the battery and no i'm serious IT does and we got IT was I don't know, five or six years ago went to north korea and um my phone started acting crazy and so I talked to someone on the nal security council who actually who caught me about this, somehow knew that your phone is being surveyed by the south korean government.

I like why I like the south koan government. Why would they do that? Because they want more information. They thought I was talking to trump or whatever. So but I could tell because all the sun, the thing which is drain and like forty five minutes. So that is that's the downside.

So you you keep us watching phones, getting new phones with the battery life.

Yeah I mean, I trying to do you know i'm kind of flinty yani to in some ways. So I don't I don't like to spend a thousand dollars with a frequent apple .

CoOperation too often, but I do, I mean, you say lightly, really trouble some. He was a journalist, would be tracked.

Well, they leaked IT to samar, and they leaked IT to the new york times. It's I would even put up, or is nothing I can do. So I have to put up with everything.

Okay, but I would probably not be actively angry about being revealed because i'm just all that. I actually taxes sleeping with the make up tester, whatever. So I don't care that much.

The fact that they are leaking against me that the intel services in the united states are actively engaged in U. S. Politics and media that's so unacceptable that makes democracy impossible. There's no defensive that. And yet nbc news kenda, ian and the rest will defend IT. And it's like, and not just an nbc news, by the way, on the supposedly conservative channels too, they will defend IT and there's no defending that you can't have democracy if the intel services are tempering elections and information, period.

So you had no fear. You know, your lawyer said, be careful which questions asked? You said, I don't have. Well.

the lawyer said, no. He said very specifically, if you know, depending on the questions you ask pun um you know you could be arrested or not and I said, listen to what you're saying. You're saying the U. S. Government has like control over my questions. Now arrest me if I ask your own question and how are we Better than putting if that's true and by the way, that just the lawyer said, but I I came over state one of the bigger law from the united states, smart layers we've used three years. So I was I was really shocked by IT.

You said leaders kill, leaders lie.

I don't believe in leaders very much like this whole like I was linski jesus and putin say and it's like, no, there are all leaders of countries okay, I grow up a little bit, you child, do you have you met a leader like all of the first? To anyone who seeks power is damaged morally, in my opinion, you shouldn't be seeking. You can't seek power or wealth for its own sake and remain a decent person.

That is true. So there aren't any like really virtuous billionaire, and there aren't any really virtuous world leaders. You have grades of virtue somewhere Better than others for sure. But I mean, in other words, linski maybe Better than putin. I'm open to that possibility. But to claim that one is evil and the other is virtuous is like you're revealing that you a child, you don't know anything about how the world actually is or what reality is like. It's that's quite .

a real perspective. But there is a spectrum.

There is spectrum. absolutely. I'm not saying you're .

all the same or not. And our task is to figure out where on the spectrum they they lie. And the leaders, uh, task is to confuses and convince us there are one of the good guys s but .

I actually reject in that formulation. I don't think it's always about the leaders. I think of course, the leaders make the difference.

A good leader has a healthy country and a bad leader has a decaying country, which is something to think about um but it's about the ideas and the policies and the practical, effective things. So we're very much caught up in the personalities of various leaders, not just our political leaders but our business leaders. Are cultural leaders.

Are they good people? Do they have the right thoughts? It's like, no, I I ask much more basic question. What are the fruits of their behavior? Now I always make IT personal because I think everything is personal.

Does his wife expect him? Do his children expect them? How are they doing? Is the country he runs thriving, or is IT falling apart? If your life expectancy is going down, if your suicide rate is going up, if your standard of living is tanking, you're not a good leader.

I don't care what you tell me. I don't care what you claim you represent. I don't care about the ideas or the systems that you say.

You, anybody, it's it's, it's dogs barking to me. How's your life expectancy? How's your suicide rate? What's drug use? Like, are people having children? Are are people's children more likely to live in a fear more prosperous society than than you did and their grandparents did?

Like those are the only measures that matter to me. The rest is a lie. But anyway, the point is we just get so obsessed with like the the theater around people or people, and we miss the bigger things that are happening.

And we we allow ourselves to be deceived into thinking that what doesn't matter all matters, that moral Victories are all that matter. No, actually, facts on the ground Victories matter more than anything. And you certain ly see that this could be black lives matter.

For example, how many black people did that help? I heard a lot of black people, but in the end we should be able to measure IT. You know, like what? How many black people have died by gunfire in the four years since chord foid divil? The numbers gone weighed up, and that was a black life's matter Operation to fund the police.

So I think we can say, as a factual matter, databased matter, black lives matter didn't help black people. And if IT did tell me how well these are important moral Victories. And over that, that's just another lie, one little in flies. So I try to see the rest of the world that way. And but more than anything, I try to see world events through the lens of an american, because I am one.

And what does this mean for us? And not even the war, is the sanctions that will forever change the united states, our standard of living to where government Operates, that more than any single thing in my lifetime, screw the united states. Leaving the sanctions in the way that we did was crazy.

And that was that, for me, the main take away from my eight days in moscow was not putin, and is a leader with whatever none of them that different, actually, in my pretty extensive experience. No, he was moscow that blew my mind. I was not prepared for that at all.

And I thought, I know a lot about mask. My dad work. There are often the eighties and nineteen us.

Government employee. He was always going back moscow. Nightmare and all stuff, no electricity.

I got there almost exactly two years after sanctions totally cut off from western financial system kicked out. Swift can't use U. S.

Dollars, no bank or credit cards. And that city is just, factually, i'm not endorse ing the system, not endorse ing the whole country. I didn't go to lake, but call, you know, I didn't go to truck ministry.

I just want to moscow, largest city in europe, thirteen million people. I drove all around IT, and that city is way nicer. Howards, anyway, I don't live there. Then any city we have buy a lot, and by nice. So let me be specific.

No graf iti, no homeless, no people using drugs in the tree, totally tidy, no garbage ground and no forest of steel and concrete sold, destroying buildings, none of the postmodern architecture that depresses us without without even our knowledge, none of that crap. It's a truly beautiful city, and that's not an endorsement of putin. And by the way, I didn't make me love putin IT made me hate my own leaders because I grew up in a country that had cities kind of like that.

There were nice cities that were safe and why we don't have that anymore. And how did that happen? Did putin do that? I don't think putin did that actually. I think the people in charge that, the mayors, the governors, the president, they did that and they should be held accountable for IT.

So I think cleanliness and architectural design is not the entirety of the matrix that matter. When you measure city there.

the main matrix that matter. They're the main matrix that matter, the main matrix that matter. Or cleanliness, safety and beauty, in my opinion.

And more of the big lies that we are told in our world is that no something you can't measure that has no actual effect on your life matters most. Pull shit. What matters most to say again, beauty, safety, cleanliness, the lots of other things matter, to a whole bunch of things matter.

But if I were to put them in order is not some theoretical well, actually I don't know if you know that the do my has no pet, okay? I get that freedom speech matters enormously to me. They have less freely speech in russia than we do in the united states. We are superior to them in that way.

But you can tell me that living in a city where, you know, your sexual daughter can walk to the bus stop and ride on a clean bus or ride in a beautiful subway car that's on time and not get assaulted, that doesn't matter know that matters almost more than anything actually and we can have both. And like the Normal regime defenders and morons john steward or whatever he's calling himself, they're like, well, that's the Price of freedom. Like people sitting on the sidewalk is the Price of freedom.

It's like you can't full me because i've lived here for fifty four years. I know that is not the Price of freedom because I lived in a country that was both free and clean and orderly. So that's on to trade off.

I think I have to make you can that is the beauty of being a little bit older because you're like, no, I remember that actually IT wasn't what you're saying. We didn't have racial segregation in one thousand nine hundred eighty five. IT was a really nice country that kind of respected itself.

I was here and I think with Younger people you can tell them that I know I got one hundred eighty five. You are, you know, selling slaves and medicine are gardeners like, know you they weren't. You're going to medicine regarding and not stepping over .

a single final attack. IT is true, there doesn't have to be a trade op between cleanliness and freedom speech, but IT is also true that in dictatorships, cleaning ss and architectural designs easier to achieve and perfect, and often is done so. So you can show off, look how great our cities are while you're suppressing course.

Of course, I agree with that vampy. This is not a defense of the russian system at all. And if I felt that way, I would not only move there, but I would announce I was moving there.

I'm not ashamed of my views. I never have been. And for all the people were trying to compute secret motives, to my words, i'm like the one person in amErica you don't need to do that with.

If you think i'm a racist to ask me and i'll tell you you racist? No, I have a success. No, anyway, no, but if I was like a defender of flatman putin, I would just say i'm defending fattier putin now i'm not.

I am attacking our leaders and i'm grieving over the low expectations of our people. You don't need to put up with this. You don't need to put up with foreign invaders stealing from you, you know, occupying your kids school.

Your kids can get an education because people from foreign tries broke our laws and shot appear. They they ve taken over the school. That is that's not a feature of freedom.

actually. That's the opposite. That's what enslavement looks like.

And so everything, raise ed your expectations little bit. You can have a clean, functional, safe country. Crime is totally optional.

Crime is something our leaders decide to have or not have. It's not something just appears organically. I went a book about crime thirty years ago.

I I thought a lot about this. You have as much crime as you put up with period. And IT doesn't make you less free to not tolerate murder. In fact, IT makes you unfree to have a lot murder.

Uh, and so I just but he makes me sad that people like, where do you know I guess this is I can't like live in new york city and any more because of inflation and filth and illegal aliens of people shooting each other. But you know, i'm just i'm glad because this is viBrant and strong and free. It's like that's not freedom actually at all.

Your point is well taken. You can have both.

But do you regret we had both at the point we had I saw.

Do you regret to degree using the mamos cow subway and the grocery store as a mechanism? I wish to make that point.

No I mean, I thought I I mean what and one of the more on software people you will ever interview so to ask me, uh you know how will this be perceived yeah there yeah have no idea and kind of limited interest but um I I was so shocked by IT I was so shocked by IT and and there were two and to the cent I regret anything and am to blame for anything.

I would be not enough this lot not giving a context, not fully explaining what we doing this the grocery store, I will shock by the Prices. And yes, i'm familiar with exchange rates, but very familiar with exchange rates, but those don't. And I just to them for exchange rates.

And this is two years in the sanctions, total isolation from the west. So I would expect, in fact, I did expect until I got there that the supply chains would be crushed. How do you get good stuff if you don't have access to western markets? And I didn't fully get the answer because I was occupied doing other things when I was there.

But somehow they have, and that's the point. And they haven't had the supply chains problems that I predicted. In other words, sanctions haven't made the country noticeably worse.

okay. So again, this is commenting the united states and our policymakers. Why are we doing this? Is forcing the rest of the world into a block against us called bricks.

They're getting off the U. S. dollar. That will mean a lot of dollars going to come back here and destroy our economy and improvers this country.

So the consequences, the stakes are really high. They're huge and we're not even hurting russia. Like what the hell are we doing? One on the subway. That subway was built by josel stone right before the second reward, not endorsing stone. I obviously stannum stone ism is the thing that I hate, and I don't want to come to my country.

I'm making the obvious point that for over eighty years you've had these fresh cose and channel layers may've been redone or whatever, but like, somehow the society has been able to not destroy what its ancestors built, the things that are worth having. And there are a lot. And that like, why don't we have that? And even on a much potassium al plan, like, why can I have a subway station like that?

Why can't my children who live in new york city ride the subway? Lot of people I know who live in new york city or fade, write subway. Young women, especially that freedom.

No, again, it's slavery. And how can if putin can do this, why can't we like what? It's not another word. I mean, this is like, so obvious. I'm a trader OK.

So if i'm calling for american citizens to demand more from their government and higher standards for their own society, and remember that just thirty years ago, we had a much different and much happier and cleaner and healthier society, whether one wasn't fat with diabetes at forty, from poison food, like how is that? I'm not a treasure to my country and the defenders of my country Better way the people calling me a treasure. They're all like, you know, whatever they're I would not say they're people who put america's interest first, but there's .

many almost like you said, you don't like stalinism, your student of history, central planning is good at building subways in a way that's really nice. The thing that accounts for new york's subways, by the way, there is a lot of really positive things about new york subways, not cleaning ss, but efficiency, like the accessibility, half of how wide IT spreads like that the new york network is, is incredible.

But moscow, for different in different under different metrics, results of a capital system. You actually said that you don't think U S. Is quite a capital system, which isn't interesting. quite.

We have more central planning here than they do in russia.

That's not true.

of course.

IT is you think that's true?

The climate agenda, of course, they're telling the U. S. Government has, in league with a couple of big companies, decided to change the way we produce and consume energy.

There's no popular outcry for that. There has never been any mass movement of americans is like why I just I hate my gasoline powered engine. No more diesel.

That has been central planning. That is central planning. And you see IT up and down our economy. There's no free market in the united states. You get crossways with the government.

You're done if you're scale and maybe you got a barber shop or a liquor store something, but even then you're regulated by politicians. And so no, we are actually in for free market. I hate monday police.

Our economies dominated by completely dominates in in google. What percentage have searched as google have? nine.

Google is monopoly by any definition. And google is just rich enough to do doing whatever I want in violation of U. S. law. So there is no monopoly in russia as biggest google. I'm not again defending the russian system on going for return to our old system, which was sensible and moderate and put the needs of americans, at least somewhere in the top ten, somewhere that top ten.

I'm not saying that standard oil was like interested in the welfare of average americans, but I am saying that there was a constituency in our political system in the congress, for example, different presentin candidate right now. What is second, what is this doing to people? Is a good for people or not? There's not even a conversation about that like shut up and sit to A I and no offense and so i'm .

just a fans take i'm just I all right I we will get you yeah with strong would be the first one .

White man I just exit so much .

to say in that one.

I bet when you google my picture, twenty years from now will be a black check one hundred percent.

Well, I hope she's attractive.

I hope so. IT probably be up great.

Uh, so well, the the central planning point is really interesting, but I I just don't I I don't know where you're coming from. This a capital system mean the united states is one of the most successful capital system in the history of earth. So the most successful .

i'm just saying that I think it's changed a lot in the last fifteen years and that we need to update our assumptions about what we're seeing. And that's that's true up and down. That's true with everything is true with your neighbor's children, who you haven't seen in three years and they come home from Wesley and you're like all you've grown that is true for the world around us as well. And most of our assumptions about immigration, about our economy, about our tax system are completely outdated if you compare them to the current reality. And so i'm just for updating my files, and I have a big advantage over you because I am middle ed and so I don't .

called ourself sometimes I .

don't trust my perceptions of things. I'm only trying to be like, is that true? I should go there. You know, I should see IT.

And I guess just in the end, I trust I trust direct perception that I don't trust the internet. Actually, wikipedia is a joke. Wikipedia could not be more dishonest.

Is certainly the political categories. Ies for things that I know a lot about. Occasionally read an entry written about something that I saw, know the people involved, and that's a complete liar. You left out the most important fact and it's it's not a reliable guide to reality or history and that will accelerate with a eye where history are perception. The past is completely controlled um and distorted.

So I think just getting out there and seeing stuff and seeing that moscow was not what I thought I would be, which was a smaller ing ruin, you rats in a garbage dump. IT was nice for the new york. What the hell?

Direct data is good, but is chAllenging. For example, if you talk to a lot of people in moscow or in russia and you ask him is a censorship, they will usually say, yes.

there is ah because there is I agree. I mean, just to be clear, i'm not I I have no plans to move to russia. I think I would probably arrested if I moved to russia.

Is snow den who is the most famous of openness, transparency advocate in the world. I would say, along with a sage doesn't want to live in russia. He's had problems with the putin government.

He's attacked putin. They don't like IT. I mean, I get IT, I get IT.

I'm just saying what are the lessons for us? And the main lesson is we are being lied to. Like in a way that's bewildering and very upsetting.

I was mad about at all eight days I was there. I guess I feel like i'm Better informed the most people because it's my jo B2Be inf ormed and i'm ske ptical of eve rything. And yet I was completely hood working to buy IT.

I would just recommend to everyone watching this like you think you know, like if you're really interested, if you're one of those people are not one. But he was like waking up every day you ve got a ukrainian flag on your mailbox, or whatever ukranian lap pen, or like, absurd theater. But if you like scarey care about ukraine or russia or whatever, when is hop on a plane for eight hundred books and go see IT? Okay, no, what that doesn't occur to anyone to do that.

And I know it's time consuming and kind of expensive sort of not really um but you benefit so much. I mean, I could borrow you for like eight hours and I know you've had this experience. Will you think you know what something is, where you think you know who someone is, and then you have direct experience of that place or person? And you realize all your preconceptions were totally wrong.

They were control by somebody else like, you know, for in fact, I will betray conference. But off the air we retirement. Somebody in you said I couldn't believe the person was not all like what I thought that happened .

to me in the power.

in the positive ation, by the way, for me, it's almost always in that direction. Most people I meet and i've had the great privilege of meeting a lot, you know, a lot of people over all this time, their way Better than you think, or there are more complicated or or whatever. But the point is a direct experience unmediated by liars. There's no substitute for that.

Well, at that point, direct experiences in ukraine. I visited ukraine and witness a lot of the same things you witness moscoso, first of all, beautiful architecture. yes. And this is a country that's really in war.

So it's not for real.

like for real, where most of the men are either volunteering or fighting in the war. And there's actual tanks in the streets that are going into your major city of you. And still the supply chains are working.

Yes, handful of months after the start of the war, everything is working. Ah the restaurants are amazing. Uh the most of the people are able to do with some kind of job like like the life goes on um cleaning.

Ss, like you mentioned, I lost charity. Like is incredible. Like there's the crime in the zero. They gave all guns, everybody, the texas strategy that does work.

Yeah, when you witness that, you realize, okay, there is something to these people, there is something to this country that they're not as corrupt as you might hear right here. That rush is corrupt. Ukraine is corrupt. You assume just all gonna go to share.

So that's been, and I have been ukraine, and i've certainly tried, and they put me on some killed immediately list. So I kind of try the interviews the landscape keeps announcing me. I just want interview with them.

He want yeah. Unfortunately I would love to do IT. I hope you do. I hope I do too.

But one of the um things that bothers me most, I D love to hear that where you just said about giv and but i'm not really surprised one of the things that I most ashamed of is the bigotry that I felt towards slavic people, also toward muslims on specially honest because I live through decades of propaganda from nbc, ucc and I worked you know about this or that group of people and they are horrible or whatever and then you want and I kind of believe IT and i've see IT now like we can even put the word russia at wimbleton because it's so offensive what does the taskar have to do with that? Did he invade krane don't think he did you stealing all these business guys yacht ts, and denouncing was all the garage like what do they have to do with that? You know, whatever.

Here's my point, the idea that like a whole group of people is just evil because of their blood. I just don't believe that. I think it's immoral to think that. And I can not tell you my own experience after eight days there.

I think it's a really interesting culture, slavic culture, which you shared, by the way, by russian ukraine, of course, there the first cousins at the most distant and um I found them really smart and interesting and informed. I didn't understand a lot of what they're saying to understand where their minds work because i'm american but IT wasn't a thin culture to thick culture you know, and I admire that. And I wish I could go to ukraine. I will go tomorrow.

So I think after you that the interview with putin you put a clip, I think I T C N where like you're sort of analysis afterwards yeah very much of .

an analysis no.

but was stood out to me, is your kind of talking about about, but not a bit you are criticizing why?

I wouldn't know.

IT spoke to the thing that you mention, which is you you won afraid. Now the question I want to ask is IT would be pretty bad as if you want to the supermarket and made the point you are making, but also criticize, pun criticize, that there is a lack of a freeman Peter freed.

the present in the supermarket. yes. Oh, oh, you mean if I also said that? Yeah, I mean, of course, I think that i'm not.

So I guess part of IT is that i'm a little because I have such a low opinion of the commentary or in the united states, in the in the news organizations which really do just work for the U. S. government. I mean, I really see them as I did, is vesta improved a in the eighties like they are disorders of the government and I think they're contempt and I think that people work. They're contempt.

And I said this one who knows them really well personally, I think they're disgusting um that I am a little bit cut off kinda from what people are saying about me because i'm not interested but so I trying to be defensive like you are not a tall of putin but the idea that i'd be flagged for putin when you know my world is far than revolution war like i'm as american as you could be um it's like crazy to me an apple bomb calls me a it's just like so dome but no, of course they don't have free. No country has freedom of speech other than us. Canada doesn't have IT.

Great britain definitely doesn't have IT, france, netherland season countries they spend a lot of time in, and russia certainly doesn't have IT. So that's why I don't live there. I'm just saying our sanctions don't work.

That's all I was saying. And we don't have to live like animals. We can live with dignity.

Even the russians can do IT. That's kind of what I was saying. Even the russians under vladimir free component can live like this. And no, it's not a feature of dictatorship.

That's the most, I think, discouraged and most dishonest line by people like john steward who really are trying to prepare the population for accepting a lot less. He is really a tool of the regime in a minister way always has been. Um like how dare you expect that? What do you a sTyler ist?

It's like, no, i'm an american. I make a decent person. I just wanted be able to walk to the grocery store without being murdered.

Is that too much? Just shut up. That you don't believe freedom. It's really dark if you think about IT, you know.

So there is a fundamental way which you wanted americans to expect more.

You don't have to live like this. We don't have to live like this. You don't have to accept IT.

You don't. And everyone's RAID in this country. They're going to be shut down by the tech oligarch or have the FBI show. But their houses are go to jail, and people are legit afraid of that in the united states. And my feeling is so like, show a little courage. Like, what is IT worth to you for your grandchildren to live in a free, prosperous country? IT should be worth more than your comfort.

That's how I feel we should make clear that you know by many measures, you look at the word press freedom index, you're right. U. S.

Is not at the top. No, norway is. U S. Is scores seven one. Gambia kraus sixty one, and russia is thirty five. Lower is the worst, close to china, twenty three in north korea at the very bottom.

twenty in ukraine. Ed, creating the government. How can they have a high press?

Yes, that's why there one.

But I say, I don't know what the criteria are they're using to arrive at that, but I know press freedom when I see that I try to practice IT, which is saying what you think is true. Correcting yourself when you've been shown to be wrong as I have many times um being as honestly you can be all the time and not being afraid and those are wholly absent in my country holy absent people are afraid in the news business.

I would know since I spent my life working there and they're RAID to tell the truth there under enormous of pressure and a lot of them have little kids and mortgages. I've been there, so I have sympathy, but they go along with things like you would. You are not a woud if you stand up at any cable channel, any cable channel, and and see what the second, how did the ukrainian government throw A U.

S. Citizen in the prison until he died for criticizing the ukrainian and we're paying for that. That's that's what's offensive me.

We're paying for IT. That happens all the time around the world, of course, but this A U. S.

citizen. And we're paying the pensions of ukrainian bureaucrats like we. We are the ukrainian at this point. And like if you set that on T, V, on any channel or you you know you lose your job for that.

So like that's not I don't norway is at the top, really norway, if I want to norwegian televisions said nato blow up north stream, which you did. Nato blip north train. The nine states government, with the help of other governments, blew up, committed the largest tax of industrial terrorism in history. And by the way, the leger's environmental crime, the largest mission of coto. Mean, could I keep my job now?

So how was that? I don't know that. I mean the .

whole point in norway yeah as a skin navy I .

can tell you they would .

not put up and way for .

second in for the majority no well but deviating maybe is a found upon but ah but you have the freedom to say that if you do D V, A, that's the question.

Can you keep your job? That's one measured job. Yeah, yeah. It's not the only measurement. Obviously, being thrown into prison is much worse than losing a job.

I've been fired a number of times for saying what I think, by the way, um and it's fine. I've enjoyed IT. I don't mind being fired. I've always become a Better person after IT happened. But IT is one measurement of freedom.

If you know, if you have the theoretical right to do something, but no practical ability to do IT do you have the right to do IT? And the answer is not really. Actually.

he matched john's start. The two, you have a bit of a history. I don't know if you ve seen IT but he kind of grilled your supermarket and subway videos if you got to to see .

you haven't seen that. Um but someone characterised IT to me which is why I pivoted against IT only our conversation about how the Price of freedom is living in filth and chaos .

yeah that was essentially IT. So in two thousand four, twenty years ago, uh, john store appeared on cross fire show he hosted. And I was kind of a memorable moment. Can you tell the sag of that as remember I mean.

for me, you know, as I was sent to you before about how IT takes a long time to digest in process and understand what happens to you released IT does for me. I didn't understand that is a particularly significant moment while I was happening. I just got a complaining from hawaii.

I was out of IT as usual, and I was very literal as usual. And so from my perspective, his criticism, me to extend, I remember I was that I was a partisan. We hit two kers, one that cross fire was stupid, which IT certainly was.

In fact, I already given my notice, and I was moving on to another company by that point. Um crosser was was stupid. Crossfire didn't help. Crossfire framed everything as republican versus democrats um whatever IT was not helpful to the public discourse I couldn't make more and that's why I left so that was part of a critical fair.

I'm not sure what have admitted IT at the time because I worked there and hard to admit your engaged and enterprise that's like fundamentally worthless, which IT was but, uh but his other point was that I was somehow a partisan and a mindless partisan, which is definitely not true. And IT is true of him. He is a mindless partisan.

But I am not and I haven't been for I really haven't been since I got back from back dad, at the beginning of the iraq war. And I realized that the republic ican party check voted for you know my whole life to that point and had supported in general um like pushing this really horrible thing that was gona hurt the states, which in time IT IT really did the iraq or really hurt the nine states. And I realized that I had been on the wrong side of that.

I said so publicly immediately from back, dad, I said that to the new york times, and I really meant that. I mean that now. And so to call me partisan, you can call me stupid, you can call me wrong.

I certainly been wrong, but partisan. But I didn't think he was a meaningful me. Like that's just not true, is the opposite of true. So I didn't really take this seriously at all and um I and I never thought much of him so I was like whatever some bathroom jump in around on my show grandstanding um but I do think IT was record and by the way, that happened right at the moment that youtube begin that was one of the first big youtube IT was one of the first big youtube videos.

So IT had a vue that that's word IT went everywhere, uh, in a way that didn't use to happen in cable news at me by that point. I had that was twenty years ago. You point out i've been in cable news for nine years.

So in before two thousand four, we would say something on television and then I would kind of you would be lost like people could claim they heard IT, but you'd have to go to the, I think the university of tennessee at knocks fill archives to get IT. Suddenly everything we said would live forever on the internet, which is good, by the way. That's not bad.

But IT was a big change for me, and I just couldn't believe how widely that was discussed at the time because I thought he was not a an interesting person. I think he's is obviously very good, happy person. Um I just didn't take him serious.

Ly, and I don't know but um so anyway, that was IT. IT was a smaller thing in my life at the time. Then other people imagine, okay.

you said a lot of words that will make you sound like you're bit bitter, even if you're not. So you said, unhappy .

person. And I see this a lot not only on the left, but people who believe that whatever political debate they're engaged in is the most important debate in the world and so they bring an emotional intensity to those debates and they are inevitably disappointed because no no eternal question is solved politically so they're kind of on the wrong path, right, and are doomed to frustration um if they believe that in many do, he certainly does that whatever the issue is so you know clear to a stop, a spring core justice in the implication is, well, if someone else is printed d justice live in fair and happy society but that's just not, it's a false promise.

So I think that people who bring that level of intensity to politics are, by definition bitter, by definition disappointed, either in the way the disapointment are, and that the real questions like what happens when you die and how do the people around you feel about you, you know, those are, those are not the only questions in life, but they're showing the most important ones. And if for spending a disproportional amount of time on who could selected to some office, not that is irrelevant, that is relevant, but it's not the eternal question. And so I feel like he's not the only kind of bitter, silly person.

And washington and in its in its orbit there are many and a lot of them more republican so um but I just think that was ironic. I mean, everything's ironic to me but like being called a russia's sympathized er by guy called themselves boris can just made me left know what else has ever laugh at that boris Johnson is real name is not boris as you know he calls themselves for us as his middle me um and so like if you call yourself boris, you don't really have standing to attack anyone else is a russia defenders right? That's my I think that's funny. No one else as I noted IT does but um but john Stuart, like you know if if he don't know lot of things you could say about me but he's much more partisan than I am so to call me a partisan it's like .

what he would probably say that he's not a partisan that he's a comedian who is looking for the humor in the absurdity of the that's .

done he's a dead here. He's very serious person in this. I will say this, and he shares this quality with a lot of comedians.

I A lot of comedians. I know a cross section people are having done this job for long time and a lot and very serious like about their views. And there they have a lot of emotional intensity and he certainly is in that category.

He's not that's that's like the silicious thing. Yeah he's a comedian for sure. He can be very funny for sure.

He has talent, no doubt but i've never denied that. But he is a peace motivated by um by his moral views. Know this is right, that is wrong and and I just think that it's a missioned passion.

What do you think i'm just a comedian is um I think .

getting serious person thinks that I mean you're just a comedian. Be and I am not to claim. I couldn't claim. I haven't said a lot of dumb things and one of the dumb things I ever said was when he was on our set letter ing me he he's a moralizer which I also don't really care for as anesthetic matter but he he was electing me about something and I said, I thought you're heard to tell jokes, which I shouldn't said because he wasn't there to tell jokes.

He was there to to lecture me and I should just engaged IT directly rather than trying to diminish him by like little comedian. He doesn't seem of that way. But I would just say this, James is the defender of power.

Like janter is never criticized like what's john towards of you on, you know, the eight we ve sent to ukraine, the hundred million dollars, whatever. Like what happened to that money? What have the weapons of? He doesn't care.

He has the exact same priorities as the people permanently in charge in washington. So whatever he does, he's not alone in that. So does maker versions ski and her husband and all the rest of the cast of dummy. But if you're gonna a pretend to be the guy who's giving the finger to entrench power you should do at once in a while and he never has there's not one time when he said something that would be deeply unpopular on morning joe that's saying and so don't call yourself a truth teller. You're a court comedian or a with a flatter of power okay, that's financial role for that, but don't pretend to be something else.

I'll just be honest that I watched IT just recently that video and I twenty .

years ago from twenty years ago.

I watched the initially and I remember very differently I remember red that joins to are completely destroyed you in that conversation and I watched IT and you ask very good question of him which was and you there is no destruction first of all uh and you ask a very good question of why when you got a chance interview john kerry, did you ask to a soft ball questions? No, I dought that was a really fair question. And then his defense was well on just the comedians. So I thought .

that was disingenuous. And I haven't watched, I never have watch a clip on time in my life and I don't want to watch myself television, I never have. So that and that's my fault and I probably should force myself to watch IT.

Of course I will, but I I think to take away for me, which was really interesting in life changing was I agree with your assessment. I'm not just i've lost a lot of debates. I've been humiliated and television.

I'm not above that. It's certainly happened to me that will happen again. But I didn't feel like he was a clear win for him at all.

You know, maybe A, T, K, O, but I was not a knockout at all. And yet IT was recorded that way. Remember this?

Let's kind of weird that sound what I remember. And then I realized, no, john r was more popular than I was. Therefore, he was recorded as the winner, and that was hard for me to accept because that struck me as unfair.

You should write any contest on, like here, the rules. We're going to judge the contest in the basis of those rules. And now in the end, it's just like the more popular guy wins every T.

V. Critically like john or everyone hated me, therefore he won and I was like, wow, that I guess I have to accept that reality and you do like the reality of the sunrise. You just, you know you're not in charge of IT. So that's just what unfortunate is a bit dark.

I think the reason he seen as the winner and the reason at the time I said the winter because he's basically cheating on you like personal attacks versus engaging ideas. And he was IT was funny in a dark way, and like making fun of the boat time and all this kind of stuff in the air.

And IT was Better to call me a dick. I remember he called me a dick. And I remember even when he said that I was like, yeah, definitely a dick that's not my .

best quality just I but also to be kind, I thought john, who came off as a giant dick at that time, and I am a big fan of his, and I think he is improved a lot. So we should also say that like people grow.

people like I certainly have or change anyway. You hope it's growth, you hope it's not shrinkage, but but IT is outsides. Yeah I I mean, look, I I I haven't follow john stewards um career at all. I don't have a television like i'm a pretty cut off from all that stuff, but so I wouldn't really know.

But the measure to me is, are you taking positions that are unpopular with the most powerful people in the world? And how often are you doing? IT is super simple, not for its own sick, but do you feel free enough to say, you know, to the consensus? I disagree.

And if you don't, then you're just another toy. That's my view. Well, I think he probably .

feels free enough to do IT, but you're saying he doesn't do IT .

on the big things. Look, the big things, this is my estimation of the others may disagree. The big things are the economy and war OK. The big things government does can be mean a lot of things government does.

Government does everything at this point, but where we kill people and how and for what purpose, and how we organize the economic engine that keeps the country of float. Those are the two big questions. And I hear almost no deb debate about other one of them in the media. And I and I have dissenting views on both of them. I am mad about the tax code, which I think is unfair.

I don't think we should be the fact we've Carried interest looper in the tax code and people are claiming that their income is investment in coming or pink half the tax rate as someone who just goes to work every everyday IT discourages work IT encourages wending at interest, which I think is gross personally against IT. sorry. And um and the fact that we're creating chaos in the world like is the status thing that's happening right now and nobody feels free to say that. So it's not good.

How do you hope the warn ukraine .

ends with a settlement with a reasonable settle and you know a reasonable settlement, which is um a settlement you know where both sides filter they are giving a little but can live with that.

And I I mean, I was really struck in my conversation with putin by how he basically refused to criticize joe biden and to criticize nato and IT is, I will just be honest, as an american IT would be a little weird to be like pissing on joe biden with a foreign ader any foregone leader even though I don't think joe biden is a real person, a really president and the whole thing is ridiculous, but still he is the american president technically and I don't want to beat up on the american president of the foreign. Don't maybe i'm more fashioned so that's how I feel. So I don't push but I thought was really interesting and because of course putin knows my views on tie pie.

He knew I applied the CIA so theyve done some done some digging on me and um but he didn't mention that and he didn't a technical and the reason is I know for a fact because he wants a settled and he wants a settlement, not because russia about the collapse despite the line of lady. That's just not true. And no one is even saying any market is is so dumb he wants because it's just it's just bad to have a war.

And IT changes the world in ways you can't predict. People die. Everything about IT is sad. And if you can avoid IT, you should.

So I would like to see a settlement where, look, the thing that russia wants, and I think probably has a right to, is not to have little missiles on this border. I don't know why we would do that. I know what we get out of IT.

Um I just don't even understand that. I don't want to share the purpose of nato. I don't think nato was good for the united states.

I think it's an attack on I would pull out of nato immediately if I were the U. S. President because I don't think that helps the us.

I know a lot of people are getting their red butte by nato. Um but I anyway, that's my views in amErica as if i'm a russian or ukrainian. Let's step.

Let just be sovereign countries now or not run by the U. S. A department.

We're just our own countries like that. I believe in sovereign, kay. So that's my view. And I also see one thing about zelenski.

I I attacked him before because I was so offended by his cavalier talk about nuclear exchange, because he would kill my family. I am really ended by that anyone who talks that way offended by. But I do feel for zelenski.

I do that. He didn't he didn't run for president to have this happen. I think len's, he's been completely missed by the state department, Victoria newlin, by our secretary of state, by the policymakers in the U.

S. Who have used ukrainy as a vessel for their ambitions are geopolitical ambitions, but also the many american businesses have used ukraine as a way to flex the american taxpayer. And then, by just independent goods like bis, Johnson are hoping to get rich from interviews on like the whole thing was one years at the center of this.

He's not driving history. Nato in the united states is driving history. Putin's driving history. There's this guy is linker. So, you know, I I do feel for him, and I think he's in a parallel place.

Do you think of someone is a hero for saying you? Because I do. To me, you can criticize a lot of things. We should call out things that are obviously positive.

I I just tried to second ago, I don't I don't know um the extension he isn't Kevin seems to be the next states and off a lot like way too much. You can do a second interview. You don't have to speak to my congress.

You're not american. Please leave. That's my opinion. But you got many .

fingers ducker.

And no, no, it's just heart felt bubbling up for the wellspring that never turns off. But I would say this about slansky yeah to the extend his in ukraine, good man, you know, George, to be a bush fled washington, nine, nine, eleven. I lived there with three kids, and he ran away to some air force space in south kota.

And I thought that was cowardly. And I said so at the time, and I meant what I attached for saying that, and I read a column about a york magazine. I then had a column, hard to believe, and but I felt that, I felt that like that.

I think the correct that of leadership are really basic. The first is caring about the people you lead as number one, you know, deep in the way father cares for children or an officer cares for troops, a president who cares for his people. And and that leads inexorably to the next require ment, his bravery, physical courage.

And I believe in that. And i'm not like some tough guy, but I just think it's obvious if you are in charge, you know, I make my house and I feel like someone broke in and hey, baby, go go deal home. Invention I medial IT because i'm dad.

okay? So if you're the president of a country in your capital city is attacked as ours was depending on, and you run away when the secret service told me to bitch, are you in charge? Like who's daddy here? The secret service, you don't mean I found that totally contempt.

And I said so in man and I got election not just from republicans, but from democrat. Oh, you don't know. Put yourself in that position.

Like, okay, I don't know what I would do under that kind of stress. Enormous as I get that. I know one thing I ouldn't do is run away because you can't do that.

And if you're not willing to die for your country, then you shouldn't be leading IT. So yes, to exit if if lsi I really is in ukraine most of the time. amen.

Well let's clarify, its not about what is in ukraine .

I thought was whole .

at the beginning of the war when the tank went key of when a lot of people thought that the second biggest military in the world is pointing its guns and key is gonna be taken and a man, a leader who stays in that city as fucked when everybody around him says, fleet says everybody around him believes the city will be taken, or at least destroyed, you don't leveled artillery, y bombs, all of this, he chooses to stay. You know, a lot of leaders, how many leaders would choose to stay?

Well, the leader of afghanistan, the us. Backed leader when the taliban came, got in A U. S.

Plane with us dollars and ran away. And of course, is living on those dollars now. So yeah, there's a lot of coverly behavior. Good for him.

I um mean, I guess someone can so tly differently, which is what's the what's the option to leader the country you can leave like stolen never left moscow during the war. IT was by the german, as you know, um for year and he didn't leave. And when I was in russia, like I was stall and never I was like, I used the leaders, the country.

You can't. I mean, like that's just table ledger, of course I would say. But you raised an interesting by implication question, which is, you know, what about care? Like you think the russians couldn't level care? Of course, obviously they could. Why haven't they? They could but the heaven.

Well, there's there's military answers to that, which is urban warfare extremely difficult.

Do you think that putin wants to take.

No, I do think he expect us to ask to flee and and somebody .

else to come into power yeah that maybe I I don't I don't know I don't think I have no idea what putin thinking um when he did that about slinky, I didn't ask him. But it's a mistake to imagine this is a contest between putin and lensky. This is putin n versus the estate department.

I mean, the lansky. That's why I said I felt sorry for him. And as I said, we're literally paying the pensions of ukrainian burek rats.

So there is no ukrainian government, independent, the U. S. government. And you know, maybe you're for that, maybe against you, but you can't endorse that in the same sentence that use the terminal democracy cause is not a democracy, right?

obvious. That's why it's interesting that he didn't really bring up nato extensively.

He wants a settlement. He wants a settlement. He doesn't want to fight with them rhetorical and he just wants to get this done. And he made a bunch offers um at the p deal. And you know we won't even know this happened if the israelis hadn't told us that am so grateful that they did um that Johnson was dispatched by the state department to stop IT.

And it's like, I I mean, I think boris Johnson is a husk of a man but imagine if you were born to and you you know you spend your whole life with ukraine, flag pen on for ukraine, and then of those kids died because of what you did in the wines haven't really moved. IT hasn't been a Victory for ukrainians, not gonna a Victory for ukrainians. Like how do you how do you feel about yourself if you did that? I mean, I done a lot of shitty things in my life. I feel bad about them, but i've never extended a war for no reason like that's a pretty grave sin in my opinion.

You know, yes, that was a failure, but doesn't mean you can't have a success over, over, over. Keep having, uh, negotiations between leaders. Well.

we're not the U. S. Government not allowing negotiations. And so that for me is the most upsetting parties in the end. What russia does, i'm not implicated in that.

What ukraine does i'm not implicated that i'm not russian ukraine. I an american who grouped believing in my country. I'm supporting my country through my text dollars and it's like I really care about what the U. S. Government does because you're doing in my name and I care a lot some american and we're the impediment to peace, which is another way of saying we are responsible for all these innocent people getting dragged oned at a public parks in here and cent to go die like what that is not good. I'm ashamed of IT what you think .

of putin saying that justification for continuing the war is denoted fiction. I thought .

that was one of the best things that never heard. Do not vacation IT literally .

means what IT sounds like. You know, I yeah.

I mean, have a lot of thoughts on this. I know I hate that whole conversation because it's not real, just that harmony is a way of associating someone with an evil regime that does not exist anymore. But in point, in fact, not seism.

Whatever was is inseparable from the german nation. IT was a national movement in germany. There were no other notes, right? Book of not I is I want to be a not see what is what does that mean to be a native? No, no, my no.

Mine comm is not just capital, right? My confession to extend, I understand IT like you pass to other drivers, whatever. I'm very antennae.

I'm merely saying there isn't tenny movement in twenty twenty four is a way of calling people evil OK. Putin doesn't like national ukrainians putting hates nationales in general, which is interesting. But of course he does.

He's got eighty whatever republics and he's afraid of nationalist movement. He thought to were in china, china over this. So I understand that, but I have a different for national, for american nationalism.

So like I describe, put on that. But calling them not sees. It's like I thought I was trial dish.

I do believe that he believes that so that .

so into I agree with that. I because I was listening to this because in the last states, everyone always calling everyone else and native, not okay, but I was listened like this is the domed so of not convincing line you could take and I said they're listening him, talk about naught, like eight minutes or a week. I think he believes this yeah.

And I actually know, having had a bunch of conversations with people who are living in russia, they they also believe IT. Now there's technicalities here which the world not see.

The world world two is deeply in the blood of a lot of russians in so you're using is almost a political term the way is using united states also like racism and all this kind of stuff um is you know you can really touch people if you use the not totally right but is also to me a really like disgusting thing to do. I agree because and also to clarify, there is movements in ukraine very small. But you're saying that there's a distinction to native new native, sure, but it's a small percentage of the population.

A tiny percentage have no power in government as far. I have no data to show they have any influence on the lansky and the ski government at all. So really, when putin says dentification, I think he means nationalist movements.

I think I think you're right. And I growth everything you said. And I do think that the war, the second world war, occupies a place in slavic society, posh society, you know, central issuer, that IT is not occupy in his states.

And you can just look at the the death totals, you know, tens of millions verses less than half a million. So it's like this eliminated a lot of the mile population of these countries. So of course, it's it's still resonant in those countries. I get IT.

I just I think i've watched I don't think I know i've watched the most use of words web ization awards for logical reasons for so long that I just, I just don't like and though I do engage in at some time, I am sorry. I don't like just dismissing people in a word he's a native, he's a liberal, whatever. Think tell me what you mean. What do you like about what they're doing or saying and and not see especially so I don't know what I know you're talking about.

What troubled me about that is because he said that that's the primary objective currently for the war and that because it's, uh, not grounded in reality, IT makes IT difficult than negotiate peace. Because, like, well, uh, what does that mean to get to the north is in ukraine. So like, he'll come to the table and say, well, okay, I will agree to do ceasefire once the nazis are gone. Okay, can you list the nothing?

Can you negotiate with the notes exactly? Do you agree with you?

IT was very strange, but maybe IT was perhaps had to do with speaking to his own population and also probably trying to avoid the use of the word nato as A A justification.

The world? Yes, that's all. Of course, I I don't know, but I suspect right on both counts. But I would say points to something that I ve thought more and more since did the interview, just like two weeks, years IT would.

I didn't think he was like a as A P, R guy, not very good, like, not good at telling his own story. You know, the story of the current warn ukraine is the eastward expansion of nato scaring the sheet out of the russians with nato expansion, which is telling us doesn't help united states, neither with soft, doesn't help the united states. And so not for russian for saying that i'm american for saying that.

And I think that's a really compelling track. As is true, he did not tell that story. He told another story that I didn't fall understand.

Again, i'm not russian. He's speaking to multiple audiences around the world. I'm not sure what he hop to achieve by the interview.

I will never know. But I did think that, like, this guy is not good at telling destroy. And I also think honestly, on the base of a lot.

I mean, I know this very isolated during code very um we keep hearing that he's dying of this or that disease. He's got A L S I mean, I don't know, not his doctor a ton of lying about IT. I know that but one thing is not a lie is that he was close to away during covet.

I know this and only dealing with two or three people. And that makes you weird. It's so important to deal with a lot of people to have your views chAllenged.

And you see this with leaders to stay empower too long. He's been in power twenty four years. Effectively, he done IT know the pen upsides, I think, for rush of the russian economy, rush life expectantly.

But there are definitely downsides. And one of them is you get weird and you get autocratic. And you know, like this is why we have turn lents very few kings don't get crazy in old .

age um yeah you said some of this also in your wealth in your post criminal and discussion while you're in moscow steel, which is very impressive to me that you can just openly criticize this is great. Why OCR I understand this. I just wish this some more of that, also the supermarket video, and perhaps some more of that with put in front of you.

But I could front me such a good person.

I I know you see IT as a .

virtual signaling. Ki, is, have you seen some the interview you do with some nbc news?

understand? So I think you're just so annoyed about how bad journalists are the you just didn't want to be them yeah .

that's probably right.

Actually some some great conversations will involve some charging like you were confused about denote fiction first all .

I accept your criticism and I accept that is true, that in some way i'm probably pivoting against what I dislike and I have such contempt for american journalists on the basis of so much knowledge that I probably I don't want to be like that fair. That is a kind of defensive and said and dumb so you're right. Uh, as for the naughty thing, I was like I really felt like we were just speaking so far past each other that we never like come to.

So I don't even know what that what you're talking about and that and especially when I decided or concluded that he really meant that I was like that's just too frequent weird to me. It's it's almost like I can think of any other examples. We are interviewing someone else say something that's like I was interviewing a guy one time when he started talking about the black israel lights and we're the real use and I was like, you know and IT wasn't on camera but I was like, I don't that was so that was so far out to me that I was like, won't never kind of understand. Common terms on that .

he mentioned, is a bunch of conspiracy theory about a pud's health. How was he in person? Like, what do you feel like they look healthy?

You know, i'm not a health person myself, so I and I can easily gain thirty pounds and not know IT, so I am probably not a great person to ask but no, he seemed fine. He seemed um he has ARM hook through a chair and I heard people say we got parkinson's and um parkinson's can be controlled, I know for periods with drugs so it's it's hard to assess. I'm just not uh, one of the text of parkinson is gate in how person walks I think and he's walking in fine. I walked around with them and talk him off camera um his he says some work done for sure me seventy one .

or via purposes and .

fifty four he's like almost twenty years old me.

uh, what was that like the conversation of camera? Like you walk around him. Who is what was the content of conversation?

I mean, you know I feel bad even put there anybody like talking about stuff that is off the record butter. I just say that um when I said that he didn't want to a fight with metal or with the u state department or to ban because he wants a settlement that's a very informed you know perspective. He doesn't you know say whatever you want about that, believe IT or not but um that is true. So uh so he's .

open for peace .

for peace and. Russia tried to join nato in two thousand. That's that's a fact.

Okay, they tried to join nato. So just think about this. Nato exists to keep russia contained. The exists. The both work against russian territorial expansion and whether not russia IT has any territory ambitions is another question, like why would IT is the largest land mass in the world, whatever. But that's what exists.

So if russia seeks to join nato, IT is, by definition, a sign that nato s job is done. Here we can declare Victory and go home. The fact that they turned him down is like, so shocking to me, but is true.

Then he approaches the next president to H. W. bush. That was with book linton at the end of his term in two thousand. He promises next president said, let's in our next missiles deal. Let's a line on this and would designate around as our common enemy i'm wrong, which is now you effectively leak with russia thanks to our insane policies but um and and George of you pushed his credit like what seems like coming an innovative good idea and condy rice is like one of the stupidest people ever hold power in the united tes if I can say who's like a month actually anti russia for cause and visor at stanford who was or something during the cold war no, we can't do that in bushes this weekend so he agreed.

It's like what that is crazy if you're fighting with someone and the person says, you know, that actually interest a line and you've spent eighty percent of your mental disk space on hating me and opposing me, whatever, but actually we can be in the same team if you don't at least see that as progress. Like what why would you if if your interest is in helping your country, what would be the what's the counter argument? I don't even understand that, and no one has even addressed any of this.

The war of russian aggression, yeah, was a war of russian aggression, for sure. But how did, how did we get there? We got there because joe boyden and tony blinkin dispatched calmo haris, who does not freeLance this stuff.

Okay, fair to say to the muni e security conference two years ago this month, february twenty twenty two, and said, any press conference, two zl and si, I POS lenski, we want you to join nato. This was not in a backroom. This was in public.

Any press conference knowing because he said, like four thousand times, we don't want nuclear weapons from the united tes or later on our western order, duh. And days later he invaded. So like, what is that? And if you even I raised that question in my previous job and I was denounced this, and of course, a trader or something, but okay, great in my trader.

What's the answer? What's the answer? These are not to know.

Tor knew, and who I know, not dumb, hasn't held the U. S. In anyway.

And architect, the iraq war, architect of this disaster, one of the people who destroy the U. S. R. Okay, fine, but you're not stupid. So like you're trying to get a war by acting that way.

What's the other explanation? But we nato didn't want ukraine because I didn't meet the criteria, so for admission. So why would you say that? Because you want a war.

That's why. And that war has enriched a lot of people to the tuner billions. So I don't clarify, sound like some kind of left wing conspiracy y nut, because i'm another left wing nor a conspiracy nut. Tell me how i'm wrong.

Whose do things is behind IT? If you're analyze them out, looking at the entirety of human history, the military industrial complex, he said, common Harris is that individuals is IT like this collective flock, that people just pro war as .

a collective. It's the hive mind. It's I spent my whole life in dc from eighty five to twenty, twenty or thirty five years.

And again, I grew around IT in that world, and I do think that conspiracies are, there are conspiracies, but in general, the hive mind is responsible for the worst decisions, is a bunch of people with the same views totally. You know, you have not been updated in decades. Putin said something that I thought was true, absolutely true.

I don't know how you would know this, but IT is true because I lived among them. So the Sophia, August of anyone on my honeymoon on bermuda, never forget IT. And he was a big thing.

You know, if you lived in D, C, mean, the reception is to my office. And ninety ninety one was getting a masters in russian from George town. This could be a soviet tolophus.

And he was among the thousands people motion on the same track. And so the souvenir collapses will show as the rationale, like you know, a good portion of the U. S. Government has been dedicated for over forty years to opposing the thing that no longer exists.

So there's a lot of forward momentum is a huge amount of money, the bulk of the money in the richest country in the world aimed in this direction is very hard for people to to react, to assess. It's and you see this in life all the time. Know I, you know, I love my wife often you ran off with my best friend.

Holy shit, I didn't expect that this morning. Now it's a reality like how to idea with that. Well, you know, I got stage for cancer diagnosis, kay, and it's it's all bad.

But i'm just saying like that the nature of life, things you do not anticipate, never thought you'd have to face, happen out of nowhere. And you have to adjust your expectations and your goals. And people have a hard time with that, very hard time with that. So that's a lot of IT.

You know people if your Candy rice sort of like highly ambitious mid with who gets this degree from stanford and you read toll store in the original show you did and um and you spent your whole life like thinking that russia is the center of evil in the world um it's of hard to be like well actually there's a new thread and is coming from further east primarily economic threat and maybe all the threats aren't reduced tank battles. That's the other thing is these people are so elastic and they are thinking so lacking imagination and flexibility that they can sort of imagine like a new framework. And the new framework is not that you're going to go to war with china over for most. No, the framework is that all of a sudden, all the infrastructure in til ivana is gonna built by china. And like that's a different kind of thread, but they can kind of get there because they're not that impressive.

So you actually have mentioned is not just the cold words world war two that populates most of the are thinking in washington. You mention chambon and uh heller and they kind of seeing the world war is the kind of the good war and the successful world united states played in that war. They're of seeing um that dynamic, that geopolitical dynamic and applying IT ever else still yeah it's .

a template t for everything and I think it's a huge significance to the development of the west, to the civilization we live now, to world history was the world war and so I think it's worth knowing a lot about and being honest about and all the rest but it's hardly the same total of human history. It's a snapshot and and so you keep hearing people refer to not even the war.

No one ever talks about the war like what how much just twenty blink can know but the battle of stone grad um probably zero um does know anything largest battled human story but every knows nothing but he knows a lot about the cliches surrounding the thirty eight to forty period thirty forty and everything is kind of expressed through that that that formula and and not everything is that formula. That's all i'm saying. And the republicans have a strange weakness for IT, particularly the closest ones, weird, the weird ones who would like have no life other than like starting more wars.

Everything to them, the most vulnerable, I would say among them um emotionally psychological vulnerable, the they will always say the same thing. And IT appeals to republican voters, unfortunately, that every problem is the result of weakness. Everyone's chamblin like germany never would have gone in to polone check's zaouia if england had been stronger.

That's the argument. Is that true? I don't know. Actually, maybe IT might be totally true. IT might not be true at all, I really don't know. But not everything is that that's not always true.

If I go up to you in a bar and I say, he, your neck tie, i'm being prety aggressive with you. Pretty wrong. You might be to show that me, actually shoot me if I do that.

Like an aggressive posture does not always get you the outcome that you want. Sometimes IT requires a more sophisticated medical anian posture. I mean, that kind of depends is a time and place thing and uh, they don't acknowledge that it's like everything is the same template. T and I just does not a the road to a decision making at .

all since where in the time period let me ask you almost close shy question but IT applies to you, which you've interviewed a lot of world leaders. You if you had the chance to interview hitler in thirty nine, forty, forty one. First, would you do IT and how would you do IT assume you would do IT even who you are.

man? IT would be a massive cost for doing IT. IT may destroy my life to interview putin, though I can tell you as as much as I want that i'm not a putin defender.

I only care about the united states. That's one hundred percent true. Anyone knows me, tell you with you, I keeps saying.

But history may record me to extend the records me at all as a tool of putin, a hater of america, you know? Um that seems absurd to me, but absurd things happen. What would I ask killer? I don't even know.

I, I, I guess I would probably ask him what I ask putin, which is what I ask everybody, like, what's your motive? Why did you do? And if he really gotten to point like why you're doing that, you know what's your goal? And then you know the question is you see can answer honestly.

I don't know. You know you can you can make someone answer a question honestly. You can only sort of set up all they talk and then let people decide what they think of the answer.

Just like in the barrier, there are different ways.

You, there are different ways. That's exactly. That's exactly. Man, is that true? That is absolutely right.

I mean, your energy with with putin, for example, as such, that IT felt like he could trust you. I felt like he could tell you a lot. I think wanted.

I just wanted to get on the record. I I think I .

was extremely like we have to acknowledge how important that interview was for the record and for opening the door for conversation. Like opening the door for conversation, literally, is the past like more conversations in peace.

peace talks. why? I would flip around and say, anyone who seeks to shut that down by focusing on a supermarket video of four minutes verses a two hour and fifty men only with the world leader, anyone who doesn't want more conversation, who wants fewer facts, fewer perspectives, is totalitarian, probably isn't.

Have good intent. I mean, I I can honestly say, for all my many manifold faults, I never tried to like me. People shut up, you know, I just not in me, don't believe in that.

So pud's folks, uh, have shown interest for quite a while to speaking with me. So you've spoken with him. What advice would you give or do?

Do IT immediately. How's you're russian? By the way.

you keep up with IT yeah fluent so you would most likely be in russian. Uh, so that the other thing is, I do have a question of language. Bear, did you feel that was annoying?

It's horrible. Yeah, it's horrible. I mean, I don't have much of a technique as an interviewer other than listen really carefully.

That's that's my only skill. I don't have the best questions. I certainly don't have the best questions. All I do that i'm proud of and I think works as I just listen super carefully. I never let a word go ye that i'm not paying IT exhaust me actually but um you can do that in a foreign guage because there's a delayed ed here. I M just whining but it's it's real.

It's not not winning. I can you actually describe the technical details of that? Are you hearing concurrently like at the same time?

Yes, but there's a massive lag. So what's happening is so the translator, so we were, of course, extremely uptight about the logistical detail. So we brought our own camera.

And who i've been around the world, where he worked at fox, came with me now, amazing. And he did was our cameras lighting everything like we had full control of that, and we had control the tip. The russians also had their own cameras.

Don't know what they, but we have full control of that. And we brought her own translator. We ve got our own translator because I just I don't trust any right so uh so I think we are good translate.

We have a two of actually and but the problem is I get exhausted. But the problem is for my perspectives of something is like trying to think of a follow up and listen to the answer. Pun will talk, and you can, in part of your ear here, you know, the slavic sounds.

And then then over that is a guy with a slavic accident speaking english and the nuclear who, and stop talking. And then this guys, the answered goes on from the fifteen, twenty seconds. So it's super disconcerting and it's really hard. And the other thing is IT doesn't matter how good your translators are. I'm i'm interested in language.

I speak only english fluently and but i'm really interested in language and I know and I work in language you IT doesn't matter, how could you translate is in literature and a conversation you miss so much if the language is moving for you. I mean, you see this in in bible study. You see IT in in dust f ski.

You see IT everywhere. If you don't speak you are make hebrew russian. You're not really getting I mean even in romance languages like I you know alibis okay I like obviously in french you read pagolo amazing novel of areas and it's like you're not really, really getting IT and it's not that you french in english or not that for apart russian like what .

plus conversation so the chemistry of conversation, the humor e the wit, the the play with .

words all exactly my understanding of russian as a lover of russian literature, english is that it's it's not a simple language at all. The grammar complex, there's a lot that's expressed that will be lost in the transition. So yes, I mean, you the fact that you speak native russian, I mean, I would run not walk to that interview because I think would just be amazing you would get so much more out of IT then I did.

And 50岁的 made a lot of world leaders both the and can put in are intelligent， witty, even funny. Yes so like there's a depth to the person that can be export to uh conversation .

just on that element. I spoke to an english so I know that um but he's not comfortable without all but landscape is I think no.

he is well, he's much Better than put in english but he's still the humor that would like the intelligence all that is not quite there in english he says simple points but the guys a comedian and he's a comedian primarily in russian the russian language. So the the ukrainian language is now used mostly uh primarily .

as a kind of symbol.

And he is you know really his native language is russian language. Lot of people you can also understand his position that he might not want to be speaking russian publicly.

that something I don't think they are, allow to speak in russia in some places in ugine, right? That's one of the reasons that russia was so mad is that they were tacking language. And that's a fair complaint. Like what? And by the way, if you haven't been to moscow in a while, you should see IT, and you will pick up a million things that were invisible to me, and you should assess IT for yourself.

And my strong advice would be, even if you don't interview putin, go over there, spend a week there and assess what you think, I mean, how restricted is a society feel? I mean, I would take a lot of balls to do this because you, I mean, whatever you decide, you will be sucked in the conversations that have nothing to do. The political conversations. Yeah, you're obviously not a political activist, right? Your interviewer, but I think you would .

be so interesting. But for interview itself, is your advice you have about how to Carry interview? IT is fundamentally different when you do IT in the native language.

But yes, I mean, I think, um you know I approached the and maybe I did IT incorrectly, but this was the product of a lot of thought. I was coming into that interview aware that he hadn't given an interview at all with anybody, is the war started. So I have million different questions and as noted, I did them because I just want them to focus on the war. But um I mean, there are so many es, i'll send you my notes that I wrote. I was like a diligent little girl .

but I think all .

these questions, some of them I thought were .

were pretty funny. In your in your case, I think the very fact of the interview .

was the most important. That is the question that I really wanted to ask. I was almost because IT made me laugh out loud. I was sitting having drinking coffee before with my producers, and I was like, i'm going to weather my first question to be a mr. president. I've been here in the crime one for two days preparing, and I haven't seen a single african american in a position of power in the kremen. 是， that's dua culturally specific and dry and he like frequent crazy yeah yeah .

you don't want to open with the crazy with the human humor.

right? He doesn't translate IT .

doesn't ah yeah that in there be a small delay. We have to await for the .

job what .

the at fox, you were for a time, the most popular host. After fox, you garnered a huge amount of attention as well. Same, probably more. Do you worry that popularity and just that attention gets your head is a kind of drug that clouds your thinking.

You think I live in a spiritual grave, are the people killed by the quest for fame? As I have lifted that I mean I would say the one advantage the two advantage ers I have and one i've of a happy family and a stable family and a stable group of friends um which is just the greatest blessing and um in a in a strong love of nature and that my family share so woman nature every day and and a whole series of rural designed to keep me from becoming the awl that I could easily become an uh but now of course, I mean that's what I just that I and I don't want to beat up on.

I'm gratefully, elon, who you know gave me a platform and I mean that sincerely, but I definitely don't spend lot of time on social media on the internet for that exact reason. Um first all, I think I ve said a much more controlled environment than we acknowledge and I don't want lies in my head, but I also don't want to become the sort of person who's seeking the isolation of strangers. I think that's soul poison.

And I said earlier that I think that the the desire for power and money will kill you, and I believe that i've seen that a lot. But I also think the desire for love of people you don't know is everybody d's poisonous, maybe more so. And so yes, and it's not just because you know obviously spent most of my life in public and in fact, I don't buy my life in public and completely private person, but but professionally, I spent my life in public but is not just that.

It's like social media makes everybody into a cable news host. We're talking of the year. My my knew. I just, i'm obsessed this I don't don't love about, but here's what I do know. South korea, amazing country, great people.

A group on koreans, probably no group, if I can generalize Better, a group that I like more than koreans or just smart, funny, honest, brave, there's I really like koreans. I always have my whole life growing on california with queens. South korea is like dying. Literally dying is way below replacement rate and fertility.

It's suicide ratio astronomical um why is that? It's a rich country, of course, I don't know the answer, but I suspect IT has something to do with the penetration of technology into south koan society is the I think, one of highest, certainly one of highest in the world. People live online there.

And there was a belief in for a bunch of reasons in south korea that western technology would be a liberating progressive force. And I think it's been the opposite. It's my sense, strong sense. And I think it's true in this country too. Don't understand how people can ignore the decline in life expectancy or the rise and finally use because not just about china shipping precured chemicals to mexico.

it's a why would you take that shit? I hope those two things .

are coupled technological advancement. And you let me ask you and Chloe benefit from my head extradite or in a work? okay. So i'm not against all technology, but can you name a technology, a big technology in the last twenty years that we can say conclusively has improved people's life .

or conclusive is a tough thing.

but conclusively, I I think .

that we can brag about. I think you've criticized google search recently, but I think making the world knowledge accessible to anyone anywhere across the world through google surge.

why I love that. I love that idea. Or people Better informed, or they more superstitious and misled. I then they were twenty years ago.

I think close. I, no, I don't know. I think they are more informed.

It's just revealing the ignorance. The the internet reveal the ignorance that people have. But I think the ignorance has been decreasing gradually.

You know if if you look even you can criticize places like wikipedia a lot and very many as special wikipedia, very bias. But when you most of IT are actually topics that don't have any Price. And then because there are no political, there's no battle over those topics. And most of cupido, I think that's true, like the fascist way to learn about a thing.

I couldn't agree more. You can very quickly imagine your expert and that may be the problem, I think. Um no, it's it's I just experienced in moscow.

It's like again, I feel like i'm in the top one percent for information, certainly intake because it's my job and I had literal and put up and am always at the country. I've been been around the world many times like I feel like I know a lot about the rest of the world. I thought I did and how did I not know any of that? And maybe i'm just like unusually ignorant or something or reading the wrong things.

I don't know what I was, but all I know is the digital information sources that I used to understand, just something as simple as what's the city of moscow like or completely adequate. And anyway, look, the I just in word that we're missing the obvious science. And the obvious science are reproduction, life expectancy, sobriety.

If you have a society where people just can't deal things ber don't want to have children and are dying Younger, you have an extremely sick gives the society OK. And i'm not even blaming anyone for i'm just say objectively, that is true. And the measure of a health of your society is the number of children that you have and how well they do.

It's super simple as the next generation we all die and what replaces us. And if you if you don't care, then your suicide and maybe other things too. But that's all i'm saying.

So what happened in south korea? Like why can anyone ask the question? They're great people.

They're rich. They have all these advantages. They're in the cutting edge of every american. For a foreign country, there are more american than maybe any other country in canada. And like what happened, and I mean.

the fundamental worries, the same kind of thing might be happening or will happen in the united states. Well.

let me to ask you this. I think north korea seems like the most is top horrible place in the world, right? Obviously, it's a byword for this topic, right? North korean I used at all the time. And I mean, IT, if in one hundred years there are more north koreans still alive than there are south koreans.

what does that tell us? Yeah, there's something to worry about.

But also like how how did that happen? Like why I am interested in that, why there's a question I asked putting, you know, sometimes we don't know why, but why does anyone asked .

why i've seen a lot of increased distrust and science, which is deserved in many places, IT just worries me, because some of the greatest inventions of humanity come from science and technological innovation OK.

Then let me have a questions and pressure the answer. And i've always assumed that was true. And I should say that when I was a kid, I live in the heir california.

Next, the sock in two, named after john soc, a resident california who creates the polio vaccines and saved on top millions. And so my belief, which is still my belief, actually, that's a great thing, a great additions to human flourisheth. but.

If technology is so great, why is life expectancy going down and why are fear people having kids? And why would anybody who was internet access ever use finial? What is that? What is going on? And until we can answer that question, I think we have to assume the question of whether technologies and that good or bad is on is unresolved. I get best right at best.

perhaps, but technology is the very tool which which will allow us to have that kind of discourse, to figure out to do science Better.

I mean, I want that to be true. And when you said that the internet allows people to escape the darkness of england, ance man that resent with me, because I felt that way in one thousand nine hundred ninety three, four, when I was first starting, and I first cut on IT, and I thought, man, this is amazing. You can talk for free to anyone around the world.

This is gonna great. But let me ask you, this is something i've never got over or got the right answer. Why is IT that? In any european city, the greatest buildings indisputably were built before electricity and the machine age.

Why is no one ever built a medieval cathedral on the modern era ever? Well, what is that? Uh, in dispute.

Ly, you have a presumption. We have a good definition. What beauty is.

there's a lot of people, right, to be specific, pick european city, any city in the world, and tell me that there's a pretty your building and say, notre dam before I was set fire to there .

is other sources of pretty nice and beauty .

in architecture. Of course, trees are pretty than any building in my opinion, so agree with.

but also could be I open the free internet age, but if you could but if you grow up in the internet age, I I think your eyes will be more open to beauty, that digital, that is in the digital. I'm not discounting .

the possibility, beauty at all and the text in skin me wants to, but I, that's too close minded. I ree, i'm completely willing to believe there are such a thing as digital beauty. And I have dial pictures of my phone of my dogs and kids.

So I know that there is, but prior in the run of architecture, because it's like limited in and IT is, you know one of the pure expressions of human creativity. We need places to live and work and worship and and so we build buildings in. Every citizen has. But the machine age, the industrial age seem to have decrease the quality in the beauty in our, in that one expression of human creativity, architecture.

And why is that? Well, I could also argue that in a big soccer for bridges, and yeah, modern bridges can give older bridges around .

for their money. But I bridges too so I agree with he's sort of but like the broken bridge, I don't I don't know that there is any modern bridges you know that was built in weight one thousand century yeah um very much in the industrial age but i'm just saying like the great cathedrals of europe yeah even the payments um whoever built them uh IT doesn't IT seems like if you just like super obvious, i'm just like i'm dealing on the autism level here.

Like why is that? But that's a good way to start. If only seen you have electricity and hydro ics and you have access to I ve machines in my woodstock at home, there are so much more advanced anything than any cathedral builder in fifteen century error ad.

And yet there's neither or anyone I know could even begin to understand how a flying butters was built, right? And so what is that? And the .

other question is also consider that whatever is creating this technology is unstoppable.

Well.

there's that. And the questions like how do you steer IT? Then you have to look in a realest way at the world and say that you don't, somebody else will, and you want to do IT in a safe way. I mean.

this is the manhattan project. Tan jee, a idea, weapons.

That's an easy call, in retrospect. CT, yes, because IT seems like IT stopped world wars. So the mutual destruction seems to have ended wars, ended major military.

What's been what? Eighty years? Not even eighty years, seventy nine. And so we haven't had a world war and seventy nine years. But one nuclear exchange would, of course, kill more people than all wars in human history. So you think seven.

nine is sound like you're counting .

and counting because I think IT obviously it's like completely demonic and everyone pretends like it's great in nuclear weapons or evil yeah have the use of them is evil and the technology itself is evil. And in my means is like if you can that's so obvious. And that's what what i'm saying is like, i'm not against all technology.

I took a shower this morning. IT was powered by an electric pump, yeah, heated by a water heater. Like, I loved IT.

I SAT in an electric sona. You know, like, not against technology, obviously, but the mindless worship of technology. Sure.

mindless worship of anything .

is pretty bad. But i'm just thinking you said what's approaches from real less perspective, oculus, if we think that there is a reasonable or even a potential chance IT could happen maybe on the margins, let's assigned to fifty percent chance that A I, for example, gets away from us. And we are now ruled by machines that may actually hate us.

Who knows what they want? Why wouldn't we use force to stop that from happening? So you're walking down the street in midtown manhattan.

It's midnight in that if you drink your coming, continue walking back to apartment, a guy, a very thug's h looking guy, Young man, approaches you. He's fifty feet away. He pulls out a handgun.

He lifts IT up to you. You also were armed. Do you shoot him or do you wait to get up? Because all the data, look, he hasn't shot you.

He's not committed a crime other than Carrying a weapon in your city. Maybe get a license, you don't know, could be legal, but he's pointing a gun at you. Is IT fair to kill him before he kills you, even though you can prove that he will kill .

you if I knew my my skills of the gun, because is right.

But IT turns out that you have some confidence in your ability to stop the threat. Are you justified in doing that?

I just like this picture and I wearing a cobo hat. No, no.

you are working cubby boots and they're clicking on the cobble stones action .

in the meat packing like this picture. I I think about the sale x now uh, yeah I I understand your point, but also that I don't think I meant for fall apart if um there's um if there's other nations at play here. So if of the same as with the nuclear bomb, if U. S. Doesn't build IT, will other nations build the soviet union, build a china or nazi germany?

We face this, I mean, we face this. And the last president to try and keep in a meaningful in nuclear proliferation under control was john f. Kennedy. And look would happen to him. But um but .

what what's your .

suggestion advice there? Well, their position in one nine hundred and sixty two was, no, it's absolutely not inevitable, and or perhaps it's inevitable in the sense that our death is inevitable, but as human beings, but we fight against the dying of the light anyway, because that's the right thing to do.

No, we were willing to use force to prevent other countries from getting the bomb because we thought that would be really terrible because we acknowledged that while there were upsides, nuclear weapons, just like their upsides to A I, the downside was terrifying in the hands of I mean, that's the thing that I kind of don't get. It's like the applications of that technology in the hands of people who mean to do harmon and destroy. It's like so obviously terrifying .

is not so obvious to me. What i'm terrified about is probably similar thing that you're terrified about is using the technology to maniple people's minds. That's much more reasonable to me as an expectation, yeah, a real threat as possible the next few year.

What matters more than that?

I think that could be like destruction of human civilization through other humans, for example, starting nuclear wars.

yeah. Well, I mean, this is one of the reasons I wasn't afraid in the water and put interview because it's like it's all lending anyway. You know me, yeah, well, I just dancing the deck of the titanic. Don't be a push.

Enjoy IT. I think we will forever fight against the dying of the light as an entirety .

of the other day said that biden describe that to church. That was a churchill. That's kind of what i'm saying. It's like if you live in society where people don't read anymore. Like people are by definition much more ignorant and you like what they don't know IT.

It's like I do think the wikipedia culture, and I think there are cool things about wikipedia, certainly as easy uses like high and that's great. But people get the sense that why go I know a lot about you know this that the other thing and it's like the key to wisdom again, the key wise decision making is doing what you don't know. And it's just so important to be reminded of what a dummy you are and how good you are all the time as well. Like having daughters. It's like it's never far from mind how flood I am and that's important.

Yeah I I hope to be a dad.

You have a ton .

of you have pup and but also been unrelated. I A lot that, like five or six kids. The officer.

what have you found? The .

victim, you make a sound so romantic talker.

这个 guy love IT。 Now you should only do that yeah.

one hundred percent. But I also, in terms of being humble, kicked all the time. I ve is physical humbling like anything else, I think because we're kind of monkeys at heart. And just get your ask cake just helpful.

I had IT happened to me twice.

And why is enough you .

got me to could drinking. You know, I was good at starting fight, not good winning them but um no, I completely agree with that.

Let me ask you've been pretty close with Donald trump. Your private text about him around the twenty twenty election were made public and one of them you said you passionate hate trump when that came out, you said that you actually know you love him. So how do you explain the difference?

You know, my text reflect a lot of things, including how I feel at the moment that I sent them. That specific text I happened to know, since I had to go through IT forensically during my deposition, in a case I was not named in, I had nothing to do with whatsoever. Um it's crazy how civil suits can not be used to hurt people who disagree with publicly.

But I was matted a very specific purse. I mean, really what I mean, you ask me, i'll tell you exactly what I was. IT was the second election ended and they stopped voting.

Stop the vote counting on election night. I was like, this is and it's all now man and baLance. Like trying three machines.

Like that's a right direction. I thought that then I think IT now now it's obviously was. But at the time, I was like, I feel like this.

That was like crazy. What just happened? I want, but I don't want to go on T, V and say that's a big election because I don't have any. This is a regular, you can do that. It's a response and wrong so I was like, I want the trump camping was making all these claims about, you know, this was that fraud?

D so I trying my best to to substantiate them to follow up on and everyone else like, shut up trump, you lost, go away, we're going to invite you um but I felt my job is like, no, the guys he's president, he's laima the elections can stone and he's making his claims to see if we can what people around them more like so incompetent IT was just absolutely crazy and I so I call a couple what I found give up, but I call and be like, right? You guys claim that these inconsistencies, this, you know, whatever this happened, give me evidence i'll put on T, V, you, my jo B2Bring stu ff tha t is not goi ng to be air any where els e to the pub lic. I couldn't. I, I was like, I was insane. How incomplete and uneasy they weren't able to provide.

Well, here's.

here's the point of the story and of that text. So then they want to see, with dead people, vote IT. Well, that's just an easy call. Okay, if a dead person voted, we can prove someone's dead.

Because like being dead is one of the few things good like verifying because you just to smell OK and there's a record of IT, it's a decertification. So it's like giving the names as people who are dead who vote IT, and we can get the registration and we can. They voted five names.

So I go on T, V, and I say this. Caroline Johnson, seventy nine, of waygal annoy voted. Here is a test. SHE died in the campaign since me as if not, I in general don't take stuff directly from campaigns because they all lie, because their job is to get elected or whatever. So I am very wary of campaigns having been around IT for three years.

So lake, but I may exception to my rule, and I got a bunch of stuff from them, well, like of the six names to have still alive. What I was immediately corrected the next night, C. N, N, at a whole segment on how I was spreading this information, which I was, by the way, in this one case, they were right.

I was so mad. I was like, I hate you. I'm not talking about you.

I'm so mad. Anyway, that's the answer. That's what that was. Who text my producer and I was like venting.

It's like a producer is really close to and i'm known him for a long time, is really smart and and he's like he was someone I could like, be honest with, I don't like and by the way, if so funny, I mean, now i'm doing what with me, which I I will keep to anyone but it's like stealing someone's text like what and by the way, I was an idiot. I shouldn't said, come and arrest me. I'm giving you my frequent text messages.

Okay, yeah, but I got bully into IT by lawyer. I didn't bullied through. I was weak enough to agree with a lawyer.

My fault t never had done that. Fuck you. There are my text told I never named in this case, I, that's what I should have said, but I didn't.

I said I was mad on the air the next day, but not in language that colorful. But whatever, whatever I try to be, I try to be transparent. I mean, I also think, by the way, if you watch someone over time, you don't always know what they really think.

But you can tell if someone's lying, you know, you can sort of feel that in people and I have lied. I'm sure I lie again. I don't want to lie.

You know, I I don't think i'm a liar. I try not to be a liar. I don't want to be a liar. I think it's like really important not to be a lie.

You said nice things about me earlier and start any question, have questions, a lot of .

questions. Yes.

i'm going up to see your texts after this. I text you .

so uninteresting now it's like crazy how uninteresting .

they are a lots of dog pictures. Um he said some degree the election was rigged, was a stolen dit.

was one hundred percent .

stolen like he was rig to that .

large of you completely change the way people vote right before the election on the basis of cover.

had nothing to do in that way, was rigged, meaning and manipulated.

Then you sensor the information people allowed to get anyone who complains about cover, which is a, by the way, you might have hurt trump. But I mean, it's like whatever, I mean, you could play in many different ways. You can't have censorship in a democracy by definition.

Here's how IT works. The people rule. They vote for representatives to Carry their agenda to the capital city and get an an act.

That's how they are in charge. And every few years they get to recess the performance, those people in action. In order to do that, they need a, they need access unfeared, access to information.

And no one, particularly not people who are audio power, is allowed to tell them what information they can have. They have all information that they want, whether the people in charge want IT or don't want IT or think it's true or think it's was just a matter. And the second you don't have that you don't have a democracy is not a free election period.

And that's very clear. Other countries, I guess, but it's not clear here. So but I would say it's this election that we took me a while to come to this, but it's this election that's the reference on democracy.

Biden esco, he's literally seen now. He can't talk. He can't walk.

If the whole world knows that, leave our borders. People are, you know, everybody, everyone. The world knows that. He can't.

He can you a seen our man is not going to get elected in the most powerful country in the world on mister fraud period. Like who would vote for a scene? He's he literally can talk.

And nobody i've ever met thinks he's running in the U. S. Government because he's not.

And so I think the world is looking on at this coming election and saying a little world hates trump. Okay, it's not endorsement trump, but it's true if joe biden gets elected. Democracy is a frequent joke. As is true.

I think half the country doesn't think he seen now speaking. Yeah, I think he just has a difficulty speaking. It's like gradually, gradual, the dating just getting old. So cognitive ability .

is degrading. What's the difference between degraded cognitive .

ability and senility? Well, central has a threshold. Ld like a it's beyond a thresh hold toward, he could be a functioning leader.

O okay, that may be a term or don't fully understand, may be there's like an I Q thresh holder or something, but I am happy to go degrade cognitive ability. Sure.

but that's an age thing.

But he's the leader of united with the worlds second largest nuclear are with you.

I'm a socket for great speeches and for speaking and abilities of leaders, and buy with two wars going on and potentially more, the importance of a leader to speak eloquently, both privately in a room with other leaders and publicly, is really important.

I agree with you that rate liability really matters. Convincing people, if your programme is right, telling them what we're for, national identity, national unity, all come from words. I agree with all of that.

But at this stage, even someone who granted at the microphone would be more reassuring than a guy who clearly doesn't know where he is. And and I think everyone knows that. And like I can't imagine there's an honest person in washington which is going to go for biden by ninety percent. Obviously, those are all dependent on the federal government for their income. But is there any person who could say, like out of three hundred and fifty million americans, like that's the most qualified to lead even in the top eighty percent, like what that's so embarrassing that that guy is our president and with wars going on, it's it's scary.

But it's complicated to understand why those are the choices we have.

I agree, what's a failure of the system clearly started working. If you one guy over at the the guy, other guy almost at eighty, like people that is, should not be .

running any so why you have on the democrats and illiquid arc junior to recently, I guess, is independent. And then you have the vector, all Younger people, yeah. Why did they not connect to a degree toward social?

interesting. I think it's a really interesting there. There are million different answers and and of course I fully understand IT um even though I feel like i've watched IT pretty carefully, but um I would say the bottom there's so much money vested in the federal April atas in the parties in the government.

As I said a minute ago, our economies dominated by monopoly, but the Grace bbb monopoly is the federal monopoly, which overseas and controls all the other. So it's like it's really substantially about the money. It's not ideological about the money.

And if someone controls the federal government, I mean, at this point, it's the most powerful organization in human history. Like it's kind of hard to it's kind of hard to fight that in the case of trump, I I know the answer there. They rated my logo.

They ended ded among bullshit charges like and I felt that in myself too, even I was like, common, you like whatever you think of trump and I agreed with his immigration views and I really like trump personally, I think is hilarious and interesting, which is, but it's like, okay, a lot of people in this country, let's get some, let's have a, at very least like, what's a real debate? The second messed up your cameras are sorry, i'm going excited, but the second they rated morale ago on a documents charge. As someone from D.

C, I was like, I know a lot about classification and all stuff and but around IT a lot that's so absurd that I was like now is not about trump, it's about our system continuing. If you can take out a presidential canada on a fake charge, use the justice system to take the guide of the race, then we don't have a represent of democracy anymore. And and I think a lot of republican voters felt that way. If they hadn't invited him, i'm not sure he would be the omy. I really don't think he was.

So now, a vote for trump. H, as a kind of fuck you to the system.

or an expression of your desire to keep the system that we had, which is one where voters get to decide, prosecutors don't get to decide. They told us for four years that trump was like a super criminal or something. I've actually been friends with some super criminal.

I'm a little less judges than most, so I didn't account the possibility that he had. I don't know. He's in the real state business in new york in the seventies.

Like did he kill someone? I don't know yeah you know no, i'm i'm i'm not joking and i'm not killing people. But like anything possible .

this could took a stand that.

no, i'm not joking and I was like, what who knows you know I didn't know and what they came up as was that document charge are you joking? And then the sitting president has the same documents violation. But he's fine.

It's like, it's crazy. This is happening in front of all of us and then IT becomes like at that point, it's not about joe biden, not about Donald trump. It's about preserving a system which is worked not perfectly, but pretty free and well for two hundred and fifty years.

I know you don't like trump a get IT. Let's not just, roy, that system like we can handle over four years of trump, I think we can stop, calm down. What we can handle is a country whose political system is run by the justice department. Like that is just your frequent equal at that point? no.

So speaking of justice department, C I N intelligence agencies of that nature, which which you've been traveling quite a bit, probably tracked by everybody, which is a the most powerful intelligence agency, do you think, say, massad am I six? As we are, I keep going the the chinese .

IT depends what you mean by powerful, which one bats above its weight? We know which one is massad.

Just to be clear.

I guess as of course, tiny country, very specific until service, which one has the greatest global reach and comes which one is most able to read your text, assume and I say but chinese prety good um israel is pretty good um the french actually yeah surprisingly good for kind of a decline country. Their intel services are party seemed pretty impressive.

No, I love friends, but you want to mean and in all that so but the question I mean, I grew up on other stuff, that's all totally fine like a strong country should have a strong and capable intel service so its policy makers can make informed decisions like that's therefore so as as vita put himself noted, I don't talk about very much but it's true. I I applied to the C A. When I was in college because you familiar with IT because of where I lived and had gone up and everything and I was like seemed interesting, that's honestly the only reason I was a live in foive n tries see history happened like i'm for that I apply to the Operations director.

They turn me down on the basis of drug use actually um true but anyway whatever I was on student for IT so i'm glad they turn me down. But the point is I didn't see C I as a threat partly because I was bathing and propaganda at the I I didn't understand what IT wasn't didn't want to know but second because my impression the time was IT was awarded focused IT was focused on our enemies. I don't have a promote that as much.

The fact that C. A is playing in domestic politics and actually has for a long time was involved in the Kennedy assinniboin speculation, that's a fact. And I confirmed that for something, had read the documents that are so not public um is shocking but you can have that and I the reason i'm so mad as I really believe in the idea of representative government acknowledges its imperfections but like I should have some say, I live here, i'm a citizen.

I played all your frequent taxes. So uh, the fact that they would be tempering ing with american democracy is so courageous to me. And I don't know why.

Morning joe is not outrage this parade of dummies, highly credential dummy they have on morning jaw every day. They don't seem to that doesn't bother them at all. How could that not bother you? Why is only clean Green wall man about IT? I mean, it's confirmed it's not like a fever dream.

It's real. They played in the last action domestically. And I guess that shows have dumb I am because they've been doing that for many years.

Mean, the guy who took out most adec lived on my street, the rosel C I. office. So I mean, again, I would grow around the stuff.

But um I never really thought I never reached the obvious conclusion, which is that if the U. S. Government servers democracy in other countries in the name of democracy, IT will over time support democracy in my country.

Why wouldn't that is the corruption is like core is at the root of IT. The purpose of the C I was envisioned, at least publicly visioned as an intel gathering upper atis with the executive so the president could make wise forever policy decisions. What they have is happening in country.

I don't know. Let me call agency in charge of finding out. The point wasn't to frequent guarantee the outcome of elections.

I'm doing a israel passon debate next week, but I have to ask you, just your thoughts, maybe even from the U. S. Perspective, what do you think about how more attacks on israel? What was what would be the right thing for israel to do and what's the right thing for U.

S. To do in this? If you looking at the geopolitics .

of IT mean it's not a topic that I get into a lot because i'm a non expert um and because i'm not unlike every other american, i'm not emotionally invested in other countries system general I mean I admire them or not and I love visiting them. I love Jerry sm from my favorite city in the world um but I don't have an emotional test to so uh maybe you've got more clearly, I don't know, maybe less. Here's my view.

I believe in sovereign mentioned and I think each country has to make decisions based on own interest, but also with reference to its own capabilities and its own long term interest. And it's very unwise for a not a huge fan of trees. Summer fine, too many bad um but I think U S.

A military aid, israel and the employed security guarantees, some expensive but many employed security guarantees of the united states to israel probably that helps us that much long term. You know it's a rich country with a highly capable population like a rather country is probably best if IT makes its decisions based on what I can do by itself. Um so I would definitely concerned if I look in israel because I think fair or unfair and really this is another productive technology, social media, public sentiment in that area is boiling over.

And I think it's going to be hard for some of the governments in the region, Jordan, egypt, turkey, to contain their own popular. They don't want conflict with this role at all. They were all pretty cyc actually for the trend in progress. The sad peace deal should never signed but IT would have been great for everybody because like trade peace, Normal relations like that's good okay. Let's just say I know john bolton doesn't like IT, but it's it's good and it's kind of what we should be looking for.

But um now it's is not possible and you know if you had like a coalition of countries against this, I know israel nuclear weapons and as a capable military and all that in the backing of the united states, but like you don't it's a small country. I think i'd be very worried. So there's that and I don't see any advantage. And today, I say, I mean, I don't I I think it's important for each country to make its own decisions.

But IT also is a plastic, he said, where things are boiling over and IT could spread across multiple nations into a major military conflict.

Yeah, well, I think very easily could happen in fact, after fight, guess. And um yeah, I pray IT doesn't. But again, I don't think you can overstate the lack of wisdom, weakness short from thinking of american form palsy leadership.

These are the architects of the iraq war, of the the totally points destruction of libya, totally point destruction of syria, and the twenty or occupation in the afghanistan that resulted in a return to statistics. So like there of the vietnam AR, their track record of the korean war, even going back eighty years as uninterrupted failures one after the other. So and you don't have any confidence in those leaders to improve.

One was last time they improved in another country. Can you think of the other martial plan? Well, you look at europe now, you know like I don't know you know if that worked um but even if I did work again eighty years ago. So when was the last country american foreign policy makers improved?

So if I were nanna hoo in a very difficult place, politically impossible, I know I am not 然后 嗯 and i'm not sure he's capable of making wise long term decisions anyway。 But if I was just like in israeli, I feel like I don't know if I want like all this help and guidance um so yeah I actually is worse than p is having just returned for the middle ast and talk in to a lot of pretty open minded sort of pro israeli arabs who want stability. Above all, the merchant class are always want stability.

So i'm on their side, I guess in that they're like, man, this could get super ugly superfast american leadership is to completely absent. The part is still postering. It's like people like nicki Haley, he just wondered, like how does an advanced civilization promote someone like nicki hai to a position of authority? Is like what adults are talking.

Adults are talking. If you could please go away like that, that would be the appropriate resource. But everyone's so intimidate like a strong woman, she's so transparently weak and sort of ridiculous and doesn't know anything. And it's just like thinks that jumping up and down in making these absurd black and statements, repeating bump er stickers like leadership so that's like A A self confident advances society would never allow nicki hai to advance. I mean, she's really not impressive.

Sorry, I just feel like you hold back too much. I did not tell us what you think I think you speak.

I mean, you can completely disagree my opinions, but in the case in cahere, it's not like an opinion form just from watching television, which I don't watch. It's opinion form for known nicki Haley. So strong words .

from talker well felt too.

The world's in the baLance.

This this is important that .

it's not just like, well, know, what is the capital gains rate be? It's like do we ever die? I don't know. Let's consult nicki hai. So if you're asking should we liver die and consulting nici hai, clearly you don't care about the lives of your children. That's how I feel .

not to try to get a preview or anything. But do you have interest of interviewing, uh, in pink and if you do, how you approach that like enormous .

interesting doing enormous in a couple other people are more working on that.

I should also say it's been refreshing you interviewing world leaders. I think when i've started seeing you do that, you may be realized how much that's .

lacking yeah just interesting. I mean.

I from even a historical prospect interesting but is also important from a geopolitical perspective.

Well, it's really changed my perspective. And I been going on about how american I am. And I think that's a great thing. I love america, but it's also now we're so physically geographically isolated from the world. Even though I traveled a thon as a kid a lot, you know, more than most people, but even now i'm like, i'm so parochial. So I see everything through these lands and getting out and seeing the rest of the world to which we really are connected, like that's real, is vitally important. So I yeah I mean, at this stage I don't you know kind of need to do IT, but I really want to just motivated by curiosity and trying to expand my own and not be close minded and really see the false perspective I possibly can in order to render wise judgment I mean that that's like the whole journey of life.

I was just taking out rogan yesterday, john rogan and um you know I mentioned to him that is me being a fan of a show that I would love her him to talk with you and he said he's up for and you reason you guys haven't done IT already .

I don't know I would I there's no I only met rogan once and and I liked him. I met him IT the U. F.

C. In new york. He was with somebody at we, a mutual from verse, and, I mean, rogan and change media, I mean, maybe more than anybody.

And he did IT what I love about, what I admire about rogan without knowing and beyond medium at one time. I mean, i'm still in media, but i've always been in media. You know, it's like, not a great surprise.

I'm doing what i've always done, just a different. But rogan, like, he's got one of those reasons that I admire, know. I like the guy.

I was like, I was a long, short man. I was a short order cook. I was an extra physicist. I like this, got a man of parts, and this guy was a fighter, a stand up comment. He hosted some fear factor.

Like, how did he wind up at the van guards of, like, the deepest conversations in the country? Like, how did that happen? So I definitely respect that and I think it's cool. And he rogan, as one of those people just kind of came out of nowhere I can no one help them doing. He was doing .

the thing that he loves doing and and somehow keeps accidentally of being exception is successful .

yeah it's curious. So that's like the main thing. And there was a guy without getting boring, but there was a guy I worked with years ago kind of dominant cable news, glory king.

And everyone always beat up on Larry king for being done. Well, I got to know Larry king well, and I was the filling host for a while. And Larry king was just intensely curious, like, what? You were a black tide likes? I like White.

What do you like? Black tie? No, no. Everyone else, a stripe type. We were black and one. And you would like.

he was like, really interested, I genuinely so .

you and and I want to be like that. I don't want to think I know everything that's so bruised and also false. You don't know everything, but I see that in rogan rogan like raw.

How does that work in people? And it's so funny health that to people it's like rogan will just sit there while someone else is, you know, free bowling on some far out topic which by the way, might be true probably Better than the conventional explanation. People like, I don't know, how can he stand that know he had someone say the payments weren't built three thousand years ago, but eight thousand years ago. That's wrong.

It's like for all, how do you know when the payment is rebuilt? Second, why do you care if someone disagrees with you? What is that? This weird kind of like group think it's it's almost like, you know fourth grade there's always like some little girl in the front rose like acting is that you know kind of the teachers and forced equip around to be like, sit down, didn't you here this john said sit down that's you know like the whole american media how dare you ask that question and rogan just seems like completely on his own trip like and hear IT he's like, really where the problem is built.

I love that yeah curiosity open my the thing I admire about her most dances that he's a good father, he is a good husband. He's a good family man, uh, for many years and that's his a place where he escapes from the world too and I just .

beautiful without that man and you're destroyed yeah if I had a wife who was interested at all in any way in what I did, I think I would have gone crazy by now. When we get home, we don't she's like, how was your day was great i'm so prd of you. That's the end of our conversation about what I do for living. And that is such a wonderful and essential report from you, said, how do I not become an as the extent I haven't, I can have, but not been, a transformative, a totally and suffer megalomaniac checking his twitter replies every day, every minute. Um is that yeah, you gotta have the core of your life has to be solid and enduring and not just a femoral and silly.

So the two you have known each other for what? Forty years we've .

been together, forty years together, forty, forty years. Yeah, in one thousand nine hundred eighty four is the hottest fifteen year old and new are down. wow. Sounds dirty. But I was i'm talking about myself.

I was I was just looking in the man. nice. So what's the secret to successful relationship? Successful marriage?

I don't even know. I mean, no, i'm i'm serious. I had married in August, ony ones so that most thirty thirty eo being married fall that to collapse this yeah yeah yes, as noted yes.

So you know, you hear these people, it's actually changed my theology a little bit. Not that I have deeper theology, but like I grew in a society and something, alia, when I was little, that was like a totally self created society. I mean, something california IT was the root of libertinism for a reason, was that that's what you want to recreate yourself.

And so the the Operative assumption there is that you are the some total of your choices and that freewill is everything. And we never consider questions like why, why did children get cancer and what did they do to deserve IT? Of course, nothing right. Because that would suggest that maybe you're not the same total. The choice is matter if I smoke a lot, get one cancer, if I spent mail, got IT, I don't excise my can fit, okay.

But like on a bigger scale, you're not only the sub some total of your choices like things happen to you that you didn't deserve good and bad and marriages and i'll speak for myself in that in my case, just one of them, I could say really spending time with the personal mate to talking, enjoying each other. You know, I have a lot of virtual als. We have of visuals to ensure that.

But in forty years, like you change your like a different person. You know, I like the drugs of drinking all time. When we met, you know what's been a long time, once i've been done that I am very different.

So SHE, but we're different in ways that are complementary and happy. Never been happy or so. Like how do we pull that off? Just kind of good luck. Onest ly, and then I see other pete, no, i'm not kidding, but that's true. I think it's so important not to flatter yourself if you've been successful with something the thing i'm the most successful as marriage but I it's not really me mean, I haven't. So I think what you're .

indirectly the community is as like humility. I think .

it's not even a humility is the result of a reality based world for you.

Okay, right?

Once you see things clearly, then you know that you are not the author of all your successes or failures. And I hate the implication otherwise, because IT suggests powers that people don't have this. One of the reasons I always hated the smoking debate or the covet debate, someone die of coveted to know the x SHE.

That's what you get. You smoke sciarra. You get so, you know, yeah, if you smoke cigar, you more likely get long cancer. You don't if you get whatever possible effect is real and not like it's existence, it's obvious, but it's not the whole story. There are larger forces acting on us, unseen forces that just a fact you don't need to be some kind of religious not and they act on A I two and you should keep that .

in mind .

the idea that, no, it's true. It's demonstrative ly truth or the only society that hasn't acknowledge the truth of that. And the idea that the only things that are real, the things that we can see or measure in a lab like doesn't sane that just dumb.

In the religious context, you have these two categories that I really like, that of the two kinds of people, people who believe they're god and people who know they are not, which is a really interesting division that speaks to humility and a kind of realist world view. A world we are .

in the world can.

can atis spin here like a category. No.

there are very few atheists i've never actually met, won. There are people who poses at us, but no one's purely rational. And everyone, I mean that this is a ally, have for a reason. And everyone, under extreme stress, appeals to a power higher than himself, because everyone knows that there is a power higher than himself. So really, it's just people who are gripped with the delusion that they're god.

No one actually believes that if you're god, jump off through your garage gancy, what happens? You know, you may no one actually thinks that, but people behave as if is true and those people are dangerous and I will say, by contrast, the only people like trust to the people in other limits and I was thinking actually this morning in my sona um of all the people have interviewed or met is someone never interviewed. I have talked to couple of times.

The greatest leader i've ever met the world a king it's MBC shake muhamad of abdi who is muslim I am definitely not muslim question an product and so I don't agree with this religion and I don't agree with monarchies um but he's the best way around the world live ever met and by far was a good to close and why is that? Although I can break for now on the second but the the reason that he's such a good leader is because he's guided by an ever present knowledge of his limitations and of the limits of his power and of his foresight. And when you start there, when you start with the reality is not in human unity can be opposed like humble brag is a phrase for a reason.

It's a way deeper. That's just signal. Can I do I have magical powers? Can I see the future? No, okay, that is the fact.

So i'm not god, but i've never seen anybody more at ease with admitting that. And more than M, B, Z is a remarkable person. And for that reason, he's like treated as an oracle. I don't think people understand the number of world leaders who trapped through his house or palace to see his council is there's no I am not sure that there is a parallel since I don't want to get two hyperbolic le.

But honestly, since like Solomon, where people come from like around the world to ask what he thinks now, why would they be doing that? Because ab dois military so powerful of me, he's red. Okay, massive.

Anyone guess business. But like for a lot of you know so canada no an no one is coming to ottawa taaoa to ask Justin tradd he thinks, no, it's humility. That's where wisdom comes from.

You start to think like I spent my whole life like matter america's leadership class because it's not just by the people in official positions, is the whole conStellation of advisors and throne snipers around them and i'm it's not even I disagree with them. It's not not impressed by them. It's not impressed.

They're not that capable, right? So that's for saying about niki Haley. I don't think nick healy's most evil person in the world, I think she's ridiculous. Obviously going to helier mike pump pill, what great leaders .

are so rare than when you see one, you know.

IT right away, close your mind. And what lose my mind about shake main above is that everyone in the world knows that. And i've never seen a story on this.

And I am guessing I know this trip because i've seen that everyone in the world knows that. And so there's a conflict. He's the only person that people call, like everybody calls the same guy. And it's like he runs this tiny little country, the U A. E.

I mean, is the you not doing their bunch of emerges, but he's the president country, but still and it's got a ton of energy and all that wealth and all that debates, got great real street sport. But really, it's tiny, a little country that was in a country fifty years ago. So how did that happen purely on the basis of his humility? And the wisdom results from that humility.

That's IT. What advice would you give the Young people? You got four. You somehow made them integrate human beings. What advice would you gift?

People on high school have children immediately in high school. I think that that's all that matters. Like in the end, you know, again, these aren't cliches anymore because no one says them. But when I was a kid on your death bed, you never wish you spend more time at work.

And I mean, everyone said that I was like one of these things and now now I don't think google allows you to say that it's like, no, you're going to wish you spend more time at work, get back to your cube. But um I can't overstate from my vantage how true that is. Nothing else matters but your family.

And if you have the opportunity, a lot of people being denied the opportunity to have children and this missing with the generals. And i'm not talking about the training stuff. I mean, I mean, feminism has so destroyed people's brains and the ability of Young people to connect with each other and stay together and have fruitful lives.

It's like nothing has been more destructed in that it's such a lie. It's so dumb. It's counter to human nature and nothing counter to human nature can endo can only cause suffering and that's what it's done.

But fight that. Stop complaining about IT. Find someone by the way, everyone gets together.

Most people get together on the basis and free in western society, where is no arrange marriage? They get together a basis of sexual attraction to win natural, to have your birth control and have children. Oh, I can't afford that.

Well, yeah, you will figure a wait for that want to your kids. It's like it's chicken in the egg. But it's actually not when you have responsibility, when you have no, this is true of men.

A launch of true women is definitely, you will not achieve until you have no choice. As I always think of men, men do nothing until they have to, but once they have to, they will do anything that, that is, men will do nothing unless they have to. But once they have to, they will do anything.

I really believe that from watching in, from being one. And I would never done anything if I didn't have to, but I had to. And and I would just recommend IT.

But we even if you don't succeed, I didn't poor, but having to spend my life among rich people group, among rich people, my rich person, boyer, they unhappy. Well, that's clearly not the happy. I want to be a debt lave or start to anything like that, but like making a billion dollars that is not worth doing.

Don't do that. Don't even try to do that. If you create something that's beautiful and worth having, and you make a billion dollars OK, then you have to deal three billion dollars, which will be the worst part of your life, trust me.

But seeking money for its own sake is a, is a dead end. What you should seek for its own sake as children. Talk about a creative act.

Last thing i'll say, the whole point of life is to create, okay, the active creation, which is like a dying in the west, in the arts, and in its most pure expression, which is children, that's all it's worth doing. All your alive is creating something beautiful and creating children partes super fun. It's not hard. I can get more technical of the.

if you can please have a lot of documents.

Something I could draw you was cheap.

Oh, thank you.

But yeah, that's the greatest thing in the fact that corporate amErica denies all about abortion. What your you're evil are you kidding? Because you're taking from people the only thing that can possibly give them and enjoy, enjoy and they are successful ly taking IT from people and I hate them for IT.

Uh, you found A D C N. Talk across or what's your vision for IT?

I have no vision for myself, for my career, and and I never have. I like the last person to explain. I am an instinct guy, hundred percent.

I have a vision for the world, but I don't have a vision for my life, for my career. So really, my vision extended precisely this far. I just wanted keep doing what i'm doing. I just wanted keep doing what i'm doing.

And there was, you know, a five hour period where I wondered if I would be able to because I I feel pretty spry and like alert and i'm certainly deeply enjoying what i'm doing, which is talking to people and think I think in learning, constantly learning um and but I just wanted to keep doing that and so um and I also wanted to imply the people who I work with that fox, i've work with the same people for years and I love them. And so I had in all these people and I wanted to bring them with me. So we had to build a structure for that.

This is like one of the first times you're really working for result like this, an extra level of freedom .

here totally, totally. And the good you know i'm not you don't want me doing your taxes like i'm good at some things, but i'm really not good at other. So and more than be like running a business, not not interested, not a commerce guy, so I don't buy anything.

So it's like the hope they are not good that. But luckily in our really post to have friends who were involved in this, you are good at that. So I feel I feel positive about, but mostly I am i'm totally committed to only doing the things that I am good at and enjoy and not doing anything else because I am always my time. And so i'm just getting to do what I want to .

do and i'm really loving IT what hope positive hope you have for the future of human soliz ation in, say, fifty years, hundred years.

two hundred years. People are great just by their nature. I mean, they're super complicated. But I I like people. I always have liked people. You know, if I was sitting or niki hai, who I guess i've been pretty clear, i'm not like a megahed of nicky hayes, I would enjoy IT. You know, I never met anybody I couldn't enjoy on some level given enough time.

So as long as nobody temples with the human recipe, with human nature itself, I will always feel blessed by being around other people. And that's true around the world. Like I i've never been to a country and i've been to scores of countries where I didn't give in a week really like IT and like the people.

So yeah, bad leaders are like up you know recurrent fee manual history. They're mostly bad. And we've got an unusually bad set right now but will have Better ones at some point.

I just don't want to I don't one thing I don't like more than nuclear weapons and more than A I the one thing that really, really bothers me is the idea of using technology to change the human brain criminally. Because you're tampering with the secret sauce. You're tempering ing with god's creation and um totally evil.

I mean, I ve literally SAT through the other day with close web. I was with close swap was too moron like hundred years old that like no idea what's going on the world. But he's like one of these guys who speaking a media OCR.

Once we're afraid of cloud, I don't think cloud up is going to be organizing. He just like a total figure head, like a dust bag. But anyway, but he was talking, and he's reading all the talking points, like all of the cool kids are talking about a doppers and whatever.

And he starts talking about in his father and his accent, I think, is so important that we follow in an ethical way. H is an ethical way, of course, very ethical. I am a very ethical man that we follow the, you know, using technology to improve your human mind and implant the chips in the brain.

And I like. You have know that what you're talking about you're like a seen Alice joe biden but what was so striking is that no one in the rumors like why you're fuck with people's brains like like what do you even been talking about? Who do you think you are?

I mean, you're right, the seeker sauce. Humans is really special, like we should not mess with this, should be very careful. And whatever special thing IT does, IT seems like it's a good thing, like human beings are fundamental, good, like these sources of creativity and creative force in the universe we don't mess with.

Oh, I mean, what else matters? I I don't understand. Mean, I guess look, I don't I don't want to seem like the unabated a and i'm .

not we are in a cabin in the woods.

No, I don't want sympathetic to some of his ideas, but not, of course, sending melba people because I like people, but I, I, I don't believe in violence at all. Uh, I I think the problem with technology want the problems of technology is the way that people approach IT in a very kind of mindless, headless way. And I think it's important this idea that is inexorable and we can control IT and if we don't do with someone else will.

And there are some truth in that, but it's not the whole story. We do have free will, and we are creating these things intentionally. And I think it's in combat on us.

The requirement of a moral requirement of us that we ask, like is this a net gain or in that loss what the except we can foresee them? Will the effects be? It's Better.

It's it's that not super complicated. So I just I I prize long term thinking. I don't always supplied in my own life. Obviously I I want two, but uh, I prize IT. And I think that people with powers should think about future generations and I don't see that kind of thinking at all. They i'll seem like children to me and like, don't give children hang guns because they can hurt people .

yeah fundamental. You want people empower to be pro humanity.

but we don't want people who eighty won't going to die anyway. What do they care? And by the way, if that your track record with your own family is miserable, why would I give you my family to oversee? I just don't like again, these artistical level questions that someone should answer.

Well, thank you for asking those questions first all and um thank you for this conversation. Thank you for welcome me to the cabin in the woods. Thank you.

Thanks for listening to conversation talker rosson. To support the pocket, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you some words from hata gandhi.

When I despair, I remember that all through history, the way of truth and love has always won. There have been times and murderer, and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall. Think of IT always. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.