#379 – Randall Kennedy: The N-Word – History of Race, Law, Politics, and Power
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The following is a conversation, Randall Kennedy, professor at harvard last school and author of many similar ooks on race, law, history, culture and politics, including specifically on a formative action, criminal justice, policing, and the topic explored extensively. This conversation, the single most powerful word and slurry in the english language, the n word with a hard r at the end, Randall has written a book with this word as the title inward, the strange career of a troublesome some word. Please be warned that Randall uses this word throughout this conversation deliberately and skillfully to discuss its power and its role in the history of the united states.

I don't intend to shy away from controversial topics like these, and I work hard to handle them, thought fully and thorough with respect and with empathy, often with several guests who have very different perspective on the topic. In the end, I believe in the power of longford conversations to heal divides by furthering understanding of human nature, of human history and the full diversity of the human experience. And now a quick few second mention of sponsor check amount in the description is the best way to support this podcast.

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You are a book whose title is the n word spelled out with a hard hour at the end. So let's start with the history of this word. What is the history of the end word?

The word you're referring to is nigger. The book that you're referring to is niger, a strange career but troublesome word. The word dates back to the sixteen seventeen th century, has got a long lineage.

In other words, basically latin, basically spanish, basically in I G black in various formulations. We don't know actually how the term niger became a slr. So there were words that were close to in I G G E R that we're used in various ways.

For instance, in igg, A U H has been was used, uh, in I G G U R used. And sometimes IT was used in a way that seemed to be just purely descriptive. We do know that by the early nineteen century, IT had become A A slr. IT had become a derogatory word about which people complained. But exactly how that came about, not altogether clear.

So has been twenty years since you ve read in the book. What have you? What wisdom have you gained about this word since written the book? IT may be having to interact with people, having to read, having to see, having to feel the response to the book.

This book has generated a lot of controversy. I I thought I would. It's probably generated more controversy that I anticipated. IT is certainly generated more a more different sorts of experiences than I had anticipated. So for instance, I did not think that writing this book would prompt people to ask me to be an expert witness in cases.

And over the past twenty years have been an expert witness in a number of different cases, have been an expert witness in case in in a murder case in various cases of of assault of been an expert witness in cases involving um td cases intentional infliction of emotional stress. I've been an expert witness in a number of employment cases. Um I I I had not uh anticipated that nor had I anticipated the extent to which people would get in trouble for using my book.

Every year, uh, there are teachers who are suspended or who are fired because they will excerpt a chapter of my book book. Let's imagine a and this is not i'm not imagining things. This has happened. This as a teacher is teaching, for instance, um the mark twin's huckleberry fin, the word nega appears in that book over two hundred times. The teacher trying to be earnest, trying to be sensible, trying to be serious, will exert a part of my book to a aint students with the history of the world and maybe the history of controversy involving, uh, the use of the world in this particular novel. The student, you know, the teacher will give IT out, handed out to the teachers, handed out to students, and there have been a number of teachers who been suspended or worse because of that. A T uh, students, we'll get upset, go home, tell their parents, their parents are storm to the school and say that this is you know this is terrible ah the teacher is quote, using the world neger in an offensive way and often times administrators will basically abandoned the the teacher and this whenever this comes to my attention um I write I will write the you super tender schools or are are right the principle or sometimes our you know our right um an opinion on editorial piece for the local newspaper but every year there are teachers who are a disciplined for using my book I had not I had not anticipated that .

what is the nature, the letter or the obeid that you write on why they shouldn't be disciplined or if they they do the degree they should be or shouldn't be .

there there has not been one case. There's not been one case a that has come to my attention in which IT was even remotely sensible for the teacher to be disciplined. And what I say is that, number one, Frankly, I go through the, what I write is almost a sops of my book.

Number one, this is an important word in american history. IT is a word that is explosive. That's why people get so upset. It's a word that's volatile, is a word that uh has typically, has typically been used in a terrible way. It's a word that is part of the sound track of, uh, racial terrorism in the united states.

So people want to know about this word, mean, if you're interested in, uh, knowing the real history of the united states, if you're interested in knowing about lunching, if you're interested in knowing about the way in which, uh, black people have been terrorized in the united states, you need to know this word. You need to know that history. So you need to know, why is that people are upset about the word, but that's not, but IT doesn't in there.

You have to know that. And if you know that, then that knowledge should equip you to be careful. You should equip you to know that, no, to note, to know that the range of context in which this word appears. But again, IT doesn't just in there, because specially Young people, you tell that to Young people, they know they, they understand that.

But then, but then what? But then they turned on their radios and they turn on, you know, they listen to spotify, they listen to their some of their favorite h entertainers, they listen to doctor jay, they listen to the get boys, they listen to you know soop ah and they listen to in W A. What are they here? They listen to stand up comedians. They listen to dave chapel.

They listen to cat Williams a, you know, what do they hear? They hear the word or ga being used in a lot different ways. And so they need to know about that as well. What are people doing? What do?

How does one explain the fact that the gregory, the gregory was a comedian, activist, friend of Martin, or king junior, a true activist, that me, he had a very a flourishing careers, an entertainer that he abandoned in order to struggle for racial justice throughout the united states and including the deep south. How does one explain the fact that the he, he wrote several meals, but his first member war is called negar M. M.

R. How does what explain that? How does one explain the way in which?

How does one explain Richard prior? And Richard prior's best album? Is that nego crazy? Well, was Richard prior trying to put down black people?

How does one explain that? One can only explain that by getting deeper into the word, by understanding that, yes, this is a word that has been used in a direct tory way. This is, this is a word that has been used to put people down.

This is, this is a word that has been used to terrorize people. You've got ta know that, but you also have to know that. This is a word that has also been put to other uses.

There are artists, there are entertainers who have used this word, like the gregory used IT to put up a mere to american society and say, look at this word and look at the terrible way in which it's been used. We don't want you to look away. No, don't look away.

We're not, no uniforms. M no aster's, no, no in word, no nigger. Then we want you to look at that. And we, anna, talk about that. James bodman, James bold.

There was a, there was a documentation about James bored when, couple years ago, highly lauded documentary, the title that was given this documentary was, I am not your negro. That's not what James baldwin said anybody can took. Go to youtube right now.

Take a look. James bold, when said, I am not your nigger. And then he went on to talk about that, well, he know James bowlin wasn't n't again. He he wasn't sarto cover up anything. He wanted people to face the facts of american life.

And IT seems to me that if you're a teacher and you want to have your students face the facts about american life, well, you've got to grapple with the word neger. Now I just quickly say, you know, teachers have a tough job and um if we're talking about students, of course there's a wide range of student and I saying that one ought to give my book to kindergarteners. No, you know, kindergarteners are probably not ready for such a book.

Uh, third graders, probably no third grade. If we're talking, however, about people in the tenth grade, I think the tenth graders can read my book. Yeah, sure.

Absolutely a love of the greater twelve graders. People in college, there are people in college, there are people in that, there are people in law schools. Teachers and law schools have been disciplined for because the word nigger has come out of a teacher's mouth.

why? Couple of cases recently, teacher would be reading a, uh a court opinion. The world appears in the court opinion, the teacher pronounces the world 啊 you know， students get up, leave in a half, report the teacher.

There's some instances in which teachers have been under those circumstances have been disciplined. In my view, that's bad. And people ought to say it's bad. It's bad pathologically uh and um uh Frankly, in many these instance this is not only but is stupid. And I don't mind saying that.

I think that some of these instances in which teachers have been disciplined, absolutely stupid people say, well, the teacher use the word, use me, use the word IT be one thing. IT be one thing. If a teacher looked at a student and call the student nigger, get out of here. niger.

Have you want that bit? No, fine. discipline. That's teacher. That's an as bad. But that's not what's going on. You don't have these, these, none of these are cases in which you have an individual who is a stranger to another individual. And this word just sort of comes out.

No, what we have here is a class involving a person who is a teacher interacting with students, talking about subjects in which IT would be perfectly understandable why this word would emerge as a subject of conversation. Now under those circumstances, it's somehow wrong for a teacher to you to to utter this word in my view the answer is no. And you know um I said that twenty years ago I said I said even more ethnically now .

still IT is one of the most powerful words in the english language and there's a kind of responsibility that we as human should have with words with statements that word, if not use skillfully, if not use competently, even when just read from a legal transcript IT can do more more harm .

than good I agree with what you say yes, words are powerful. Words do matter. And so i'm certainly not suggesting that people be relax. I'm not suggesting that people um be irresponsible. Um it's precisely because words matter, however, that we need to be willing to face words and grab with words and talk about words and talk about the history of words precisely because words matter and um uh among other things that seems to me it's important to understand that words can mean different things in different context. It's not the case that a world means the same thing in every context.

The word discriminating, sometimes it's a very bad thing that person discriminates and when if you know again, you know international voice means something, if I say that person discriminates and i'm obviously being disapproving implicity, what i'm saying is that person um distinguishes between things on an unjustifiable basis and that's a bad thing. On the other hand, that person has discriminating taste. Oh that means something very different.

That means that the person differentiates are in a way that shows that they understand the difference between excEllent, good and not so good. And we think that's a good thing. So words can have different in words can mean different things in different contacts. IT seems to me that that's something that actually we recognized. We also recognize and talk about.

well, some words enter the territory of being a slur and IT seems like when they cross the line into being a slur the there's a the number of context in which is going to mention, uh exponentially decreases right .

um no no I want no I want to resist that a little bit because the whole idea of you know slr slr change, yankee was a slr. Yankee was a slr. And you know eighteen century united states a slow today, you know new york jankez.

I'm a yaki fan. I'm a um queer queer know you know this is in in, in in my lifetime there was a time, you know that you queer and people would really run away from IT and that was, you know, a bad thing. And then thank goodness, uh, gay liberation movement, gay liberation movement, basically, we're gna run away from this.

We're gonna grab this, quote, sr, and we're going to a fix IT to ourselves, and we are going to repurpose. Now, the word queer is, again, you know, can IT be a slr? Yeah, can be a slr, then have to be.

And IT seems to me that is important for people to know about how a word, a symbol in some context can be a slur and some context doesn't have to be. So the whole idea of what's a sr. Like that's that's a complicated idea in and of itself as .

very complicated. It's a, if I may say, almost fascinating how language evs. But if we were to, can I hear a minute by minute evaluation of the most powerful, intensely slr like words in the world? I think the n word with a heart at the end, which is the title of your book, is number one in that list. Well, i've probably .

saw and of course that's one of the reasons why I wrote a little book about IT yeah.

but IT hasn't. Even since you wrote a little book about IT, IT seems like it's maintain his number one one's status mentioned queer um IT um maybe queer was in the top twenty, I don't know for a while. And now it's sliding into the top a thousand and the end world is at the top.

You're absolutely the origins of this book. I I clearly remember I was I was at my office and I was thinking about lecture topics when I get invited to give lectures from time to time. And I was thinking, well, what, what? What might make for interesting lecture? And all of this happened.

The word neck popped into my mind. Now, this is a word I i've grown up with this word. I think there, there's, there has never been a time in my life when, at least of my conscious life, in which i've, in which this words been absent, I mean, in in my household, for stance in my household, my parents are in black people.

My parents were refugees from the gym, crow south. I was born in the deep south, south CarOlina. In my household, I heard the word nego used in every possible way.

I heard IT used as a slur. I also heard IT used with respected people who were praised, you know, my father, I clearly remember my father who I reviewer. Um that's the smart snigger in the world.

That's the brave is nigger in the world. That's the bad as snake. I know IT was he. He wasn't putting people down this way you talk.

And I grew up hearing this word in various ways, and so I was thinking of my so guy, where did this word come from? And one of the first things I did, I clearly remember, just jump in up and am a seat running up to the library. Oxford english dictionary wind this word first appear in english was the history of the word.

And then what really sort of grab my attention is um I went, I, I, I, I get my computer going and I ask the computer system um give me every kcs, every federal court case in which this word appears, thousands of cases and then I said, oh my goodness, this is and know this is really interesting. And then I started just catalog ging all the different cases. There came a point, i'd say I probably about a month into this.

I compare the usage, I compared the number of times niger came up with other sorts of slower. So for instance, cake, K I, K E, long time you you know tory word for juice. How many times does this word come up? There was a time in in which the world appeared, but nothing like the informal inward.

Nothing in that I know what about wet back? What about and then I just, you know me let me just take a look at all the other slr. Nothing came close, not even remotely close to niger. And I think he has something to do with um I think he has something to do with the uniqueness of the color line, particularly as IT pertains to african americans. I think that the the fact that gar ah sort of occupy such a unique status among slows, I think that's a reflection of the unique stigma that has been imposed on african americans.

It's hard to know while the chicken or the egg why a one word is able to so distinctly and clearly capture late this struggle between races that is throughout american history. I mean, they didn't have to probably be so, but he came to be that way.

IT became that not only that, not only that, but of course, the nigger spurred other slr. So arms, so um the irish, the news of europe. Um women, the nicks of the world.

John n. Leda, even as a song. That's right.

Well, I think you kona, I think had something to do with that song. So I mean, IT is a slur that has spain other slr. And again, this is that's why, you know, as you indicated a moment ago, this is a quite unique term.

But are you conscious? Are you deliberate in you saying this word? So let me just say, from a personal experience, maybe my upbringing were came from in my daily life.

I don't think i've ever heard that word with a hard r that is often used clearly in my life that there i've heard IT today more than I have ever heard of my entire life. And I think there's A A few people who listen to this. They will be listening to this. That would be very uncomfortable, I would say, not in a bad way, probably in a good way.

I'm uncomfortable now.

and I am almost introspective and trying to figure out why i'm uncomfortable. And I think even the title of your book is making me think that just just looking into my own mind and try understand, wow, words of power, and why does IT have so much power? But are you deliberate in that action? And by the way, not only are the people listening to the sweating, this will be a youtube in part. And youtube, the people on the other side will be sweating. What do we do with this?

Yeah, well, am I delivery? Yeah, dancers, yes. And let me unpack that little bit first.

That's right. I mean, am I deliberate? yeah. I deliberately, I deliberately wrote a book called nigger.

The strange career would trouble some word. And, you know, was that deliberate? Yeah, that was quite deliberate.

But the title could have an end word.

The title could have, the title could have been in word. sure. Title could have been in. The title could have been a book about a word that causes pain of many people.

I could have named that, uh, there are many, there are many titles I could have used. Um, did I want a title that would be provocative? Did I want a title that would grab people? The answer that is, yes.

What do you know? I'm a writer. I want people to read what I write.

What was I being sensational? Isc, well, I mean, if if you wanna put IT like that, yes, I don't. I don't. I'm not embarrass to say that. I mean, i'm sure that when people write books, they think really hard about their titles and they try to get a title that well, you know, grab people's attention.

I know people respect people very deeply who never the matter principle, never utter this word and i've talked with people i've had say, um you know, I read your book, let's talk about IT. But let's be very clear, i'm not gonna use the word. I've had many conversations with people who VS me not to use the word.

I was on A I was on the first time this came up with a book tour twenty years ago. The first book first came out, and I was on one of these. A Colin shows early in the morning time came to calling seven o'clock.

I called five or seven right before I go on. The host shows that, oh, by the way, we have a strict policy here at the station. We never use this word and I said, well, gosh, I wish you had told me this earlier.

Does this mean then that you're never going to pronounce fully the title of my book? And he said, that's right, and I hate to make a choice right then in there and i'm gonna go on or am I not would you do I went on and I abide ded by the station's rules and you know fine with a perfectly fine conversation um and you know like there is a place for you for ism. The american language is a very supple language.

There are lots of words that one can use. I do not get angry with people who um do you know they say a matter of principle. They are gonna word fine.

I am willing to I understand where they are coming from and are often I will differ to their wishes. Um all I say is I want people to understand where i'm coming from. I'm not just using this word willingly.

There is a periodical reason. There is a reason for why i'm saying what i'm saying. There is a reason why I use the word.

Can you make the case why using the word is a good idea? And can you make can you still mind the case why it's a bad idea? Maybe you've heard from some critics, yes, who said that? You saying this word out law is actually causing a lot of harm, not like a harm because people's feelings are hurt, but increasing the amount of racism and hate in the world.

Yeah critics and let's start with the critical ure um one again going back to when when the book was first published. I remember going to the first bookstore I went to and I talked about the book had a very you know talked as questions and the last comment wasn't a question but the last comment was made by up an elderly black man I called on him and he said, i've listened to what you've had to say, and I appreciate what you've had to say, but he, he said, but I remain unconvinced.

And I remain unconvinced because when I was coming up, this word was used to put me in the back of the bus in. This word was used to prevent me from voting. And this was the word that was used to justify me never being called as a jury. So to me, this word has only one meaning. It's a terrible meaning.

I'm never going to use the word IT hurts me when I hear people use the world, especially those who don't know anything about the really about the history of IT and he went on to say, I think that your book, though well intended, is probably going to be seen by some people, is giving them permission to use the word. And then he stopped. And I thought there was a lot of power behind that gentleman's comment.

I think that what he said is probably correct. And so far is probably some people who read the, you know, read the book. There are probably some people who are listening to our conversation right now who will um think that i'm giving people permission to use the word.

You know I have said that I am not I want people to understand the word. I think that there is a burden that comes from whatever whatever you order a word like this um but that you know that's a critique and I think there's I think there's strength of that critical i'm not onna say that that's a ridiculous critic. I think that there is something to that and by the way, I should say and that's why I would say to anyone um that's right if this word comes out of your mouth, you are taking on real responsibility.

So for years, IT doesn't happen so much now, but they were. I'd safe for about the first five years after this book was published. I would get an email at least once a week, and IT would begin like this.

You know, dear professor Kennedy, I read your book and i'm calling to ask you a question. And as soon as I saw that, I knew what the question was gna be. And what the person would say is the following, I like rap.

And then I knew, I knew that was coming. I like rap, i'm White and I have black friends. And we listen to rap with overdrive in the car.

And where we're listening to the song, we started and we start coming along and sing, singing along. And my black friend sing along. And when nig or ega a comes up, they sing, and I don't know what to do, is IT wrong for me to sing along. This happened so often that I say bad.

After about the fifth time I get in such an email, I wrote a form letter because I didn't want to just know, take up time writing a sort of crafting letter after R I, A form letter and basically what I said was, listen, number one, yeah, i'm flatear that you're asking me but number one, you you should have a conversation with your friend. Number two, no matter what your friend says, let me put something else for you to consider let's suppose the sake of discussion that your friends says, oh, doesn't bother me. I know where you're coming from.

We're just enjoying the music. I don't think that this is, you know, a racist other rent you coming at your mouth, I oppose your friend sends that that doesn't in matters because let's imagine the following. Let's imagine that you're an up a theater and you're waiting for the you know a film to start and you're just you know talking with your friends, are singing with your friends or just, you know, kicking back with your friends and they're talking about negative or nega this and you say IT you the White boy say IT and the next thing you feel is a fist, a big fish in your mouth that has been launched by a person that you did not see who was right behind you.

All this person saw was a White person saying, and the next thing, pal. That's not, you know, some sort of overheated scenario coming from some law professors, mind. That is a very plausible scenario.

So you have to be worried about lots of things, including mistake. So my advice to you, my is be prudent. I would stay clear the word unless unless you're very certain and unless if you called on IT, you feel you're in a position to defend yourself, defend what you're doing. But the prudent thing would be to stay clear.

There's so many questions I want to ask there. One is about the violence and legal aspect that is very interesting you raised in the book but you know I do want to .

bring up something .

I probably disagree with you on which is um you say that there is not a significant difference between the different variations of the inward uh the one or maybe maybe don't I just listen to much your interviews so uh, there's the version with uh E R at the end, version with A G A at the end and then G R O at the end. These are all different versions. And I feel like in that list of powerful words, you know, I feel like there's a distinction.

Yeah, I feel like the number one, a spot is the one with a heart. And I don't know, maybe you can try to shed light, but I feel like the one that s. In G. A. Is really far down list in terms of modern culture. So this is, we talked about the evolution of the words and, uh, the word queer, for example, IT feels like because maybe because of rap, because of comedians, because it's become much more IT lost so much of its power.

Well, you don't think I know I think there's a difference between niger and ega. I mean people make a distinction between them and I think that to the extent that lots of people make a distinction between them, I think know this is a sociological fact.

They are different um I think that people who get upset if somebody, especially White people, so know if a White person is nega and there and they and they are you know sort of criticized about IT and they say, well, I didn't say 那个， i said 那个 i believe me。 I think most you know most people who are mad at them are gonna stay mad at them. Um now you you raise the word you know so legal.

And 那个 i would put in a very different category than negro education here。 Well, you sure i'm happy to go is a um also controversial is also controversial um but. Negro is never been viewed by a substantial number of people as a derogatory term at least in the with the same amount of animals the same amount of um it's it's it's a very different kind of word than niger or ega mean after all i'm you know nego negro, a more luther king junior, all this great heritage negro.

You read the work of um dub the great W B the boys negro, uh, you read the work of good. My boss fronted, I use the word negro. I used african american, black of american ah, but I also use the word negro.

Now there are some people who get really mad at me because, you know, when I use the word negro and that so for instance, their student you've gotten really quite exercise and they'll say, you know, i'll be giving election and to go up all on somebody and say, listen, are you using word negro in its purely because of the historical time here that you're using so you, you know, is that why you're using IT? Are you using in your own voice? And often I say i'm using in my own voice and I say, well, i'm offended.

We think that this is, you know, that's all time. Me, it's the regular. Or when the first came up, I I said, let's pause use for a moment and i'll take that under advisement and let me let me look into this. And I ended up writing an essay about IT, an essay about the history of the terms that black people have used to describe themselves. It's a long list, black color, afro american, african american.

So I go through that and I said, now let me just tell you, I I I know for certain when I started using the word negro um often in in writing I can date IT yeah one thousand and eighty three the summer of one thousand and eighty three is when I started using the word nego in my professional life as a lawyer, and I did IT for a very specific reason. I did IT because my boss demand that I negro capital in now who was my boss? My boss in the summer of one thousand nine hundred and eighty three was associate justice of the united states supreme court, very good martial, known as mr.

Civil rights. Now, IT seems to me, you're telling me that this word is so out of bounds. This word is derogatory. Nobody should ever use this word. That is the fact that very good martial demanded that I use this word.

Does that complicate things a little bit? And so I think the people again, you know or no more I mean, i've encountered students who don't know very much, but who want to left me yeah about on on word usage because they know you are three sentences about current fashion and hold IT. No, hold IT, by the way, I I pushed IT further.

I sometimes use the word covered, and then some people really don't like that. H all, well, you know, there there, there's an organization still very much a alive in american life and law, the national association for the advancement of colored people, the N W A C P, that even changed their name. And as far as unconcerned, a wonderful organization.

Um there are people who have used the word colored. That's what my grandmother use, colored perfectly fine as far as i'm concerned. So again, are we there are lots of different words that one can use. You can use different formulations, understand that people have different preferences. Fine, I have my preferences, at least know where i'm coming from.

Still, words have power and they have powered a hurt. And there's there's a lot of reasons that I could see to justify the use of the word in his full form. As you're saying, when in this conversation is you're using IT, one of them is perhaps fighting for the freedom to be able to use those kinds of words. Also, me ask about the fit ma speech. In the censorship of the word ah should the use of that word be censored, for example, on social .

networks .

so we can come up with a different places. We can say university campuses, uh, maybe in our beds or I don't know, but I think social networks currently is a very interesting place. Ah there's a lot of conversations they're happening on them. There is the ability, the technical capability to sense to remove the ability of people to use the word ah do you think this should be allowed to use the word and twitter for example?

Um my responses IT all depends on the way in which the world is being used. If the word is being used to intimidate, if the word is being used to um terri, then no.

Uh, along with lots of other words, by the way, I mean, you can have you could I could use the, I suppose gentleman, I mean, i'm sure that I could can draw up away in which that word could be used and you know, intimidating way so I I should would I be happy if there was a technology that always blocked this word in I G G E R? I would be I would be against that for one thing I would erases of the name of one of my books and I think you know and I I think the book actually has a lot of useful information, make some useful points um if, and badly if let's imagine, let's imagine a world in which there was a technology that blanked every time in I G G E R. appeared.

You would have, what would that do to novels by James boldwood, by tony Morrison, by what would that do to the speeches of my max mart luther king junior? What would that do to the comedy albums of Richard prior, cat Williams, dave chapel? Um you know what would that if if one sort of place that out, would one want to have all of those blanks in important literary and political performances? No, I don't want such blanks.

What I want, I would want for people, I would want the word to be there and for people to understand how to deal with this word. And by the way, you've use the word hurt an awful lot so let's talk about hurt um I think we need to be more careful with the way in which we deal with her because um people can be just fiber heard. You can have justifiably hurt feelings.

And if somebody has justifiably hurt feelings, I then think that we should turn to the person who has hurt those feelings and say you have acted wrong way because this person's feelings are justifiably hurt in relationship to what you've done. On the other hand, there are people who have hurt feelings and Frankly, it's unjustified. So just just imagine the following.

Let's let imagine then I give a talk about the greatness of my mother can junior, and then let's imagine that a blue club plans when comes up to me after my talk and says, oh, you have now heard my feelings. What am I supposed to be? Am I supposed to apologize, and I suppose to be regretful that my talk about the greatness of Martin junior has hurt the feelings of the clansmen? No, my response is gonna be, you know, you need to reevaluate your feelings, because actually, a, your feeling of hurt is unjustified. And no, you know no, there is no apology coming from me.

but there's a kind of line and perhaps the great area and maybe the word hurt has been overused because if you try to avoid hurting a small fraction society that is mentally weak in a way where everything hurts them, that's that's the wrong way to build a society.

But if we flipped that upside down and say, trying to maximize the amount of love in the world, a and think about decisions we make in terms of language, you used to try to maximize amount of love and not a short term, but long term. And that's where the speech is very powerful because it's a short term painful thing, often the long term beneficial thing, just having freedom. And so there's where the question of the end ward starts to come in. How much how do we think about its use on the internet, on college campuses in a way that maximum is the amount of love and compassion and control in the world?

I think it's good. And, you know, I would associate myself with, uh, your vision. How can we? max? How can we max ize love now I love that.

I I I think it's great. So to take their own um I doubt that the way of doing that is to. Erased the information inward. I doubt that the way of doing that is to say, people, we understand that your feelings are really hurt, and we're going to do all that we can to avoid this symbolic action.

You know, maybe this word, or maybe this simple, we're gonna really, we're gna do all that we can to suppress IT so that we can have a more loving universe. I doubt that that's the way to do that. I think a Better way to do that, I think a Better way to do IT, would be to fully educate people, including educate people such that.

You see that over there that is the uniform of the clucks clan. I want you to be educated about the uniform of the clue clicks can so you can look at the uniform of the clue clucks clan and know it's about you're not terrorized by IT. You're not immediately you you don't see IT and sink to your needs and start wheeling and crying.

You don't see IT and say untrained mates no, you don't do any of that. You see IT. You understand that if somebody ask you about IT, you're fully prepared to talk about IT. Seems me that that attitude, that poys, that strength, that knowledge, would be a Better way of equipping us to have a more loving world. And by the way, just so you know, I would say that about the swatch c ker, I would say IT about the infamous inward, I would say IT about all of the things that we're talking about. IT would be Better for people to be educated so that they are not traumatized.

So do you know the end watch should not be removed from a hook fin adventure, a hugg fin, or from the works of jane? But when a turn more.

not at all. In fact, IT seems to me that the the board arizon of of of of these great artist literary you know work is is for unconcerned, highly objectionable, highly objectionable.

When is IT OK for a White man to say the inward .

with a hard are you know um here we need to focus on the words say, is that ever okay for anyone? You know, black, White, pink, yellow, I don't care. Read orange. It's okay for anyone to use this word in a way to put down people, to terrorize people, to intimidate people.

Answer no, you know and i'd say that black person i've seen, I mean, by the way, i've seen black people use this word to try to intimidate, put down other black people. bad. So against you with a black person, White person doesn't matter on the other hand, on the other hand, um imagine.

Imagine a White person. Who is? Giving a election. On the history of american racism, a lecture on the history of american racism. And in giving that lecture, quotes the weight racist politicians who, until fairly recently in american life, use the information word.

So imagine a White history professor giving a lecture about the history of american racism and says, in nineteen forty eight, this is what so and so running for the presidents of the united states said, and then quotes a paragraph or two in which the informal in world is featured. Is that bad? No, that's not bad.

No, that's not bad. Sounds like a perfectly good lecture. And i'm glad that you put the influence inward in there so that we can see that is recently as one hundred and forty eight people who are running for the present, the states openly use the word that does not bother me.

I'll say this too. Now, you know, some basis as well, you know. Nice job, Kennedy.

But you you you've limited IT to over here, you've put IT in an academic setting. What about other settings? IT does not bother me. Let's imagine somebody who's a comedian or White comedian who is centralizing a word usage.

Let's imagine a White comedian who is centralizing our current practice and wants to poke fun at the way in which um you know let's imagine you have a black rapper who invites people on stage and I suppose they invite a black person on stage. They're perfectly happy when the black person fill out with their lyrics, they invite a White person on stage. The White person is that doesn't really know, sort of mystified but IT comes on stage and full out with what the rapper says, including the information where and then the black rapper gets made.

Imagine the White comedian who saturius es, that pokes fun at that, and in poking fun at that, says the information word, am I angry? No, i'm not angry. Not angry at all. What if.

in the process of satirizing, that comedian is not very funny.

that joke you are not funny OK, I don't obi don't object to the use of the information in where I just 是一个 you are very funny。

But because there's there's a line when the joke is not funny IT just seems like the the comedy is used as a cover to actually say something hateful is interesting thing about comedy. I feel like the funny or you or 2， the more you can get away with probably. And that's something to do with the the thing we said earlier, which is when you use words that have power, you should do so with scale and competence and um the responsibility those words Carry.

Again, the case is not the most familiar with the cases involving teachers, professors, you know, academic and IT is said sometimes, oh, you know what? Why do I object? I object sometimes people say, because I suspect that this teacher just wanted to say the word, and that all of this is a cover of pretext.

Do why? You know, in my sense, my sense of IT is, no, I don't think it's a pretext. If you know, if it's pretexting al, that's bad. But in my experience, I have not seen that. I don't believe that's what's going on.

I agree, we done that. But sometimes I do see people that kind of have this fly flying towards the light, desire to say something um controversial and edge and they don't realize that there's a responsibility that this is skill. They you shouldn't just say, I mean, actually when comedians first start out though, sometimes going to that, they will say edgy stuff that's toling not funny. And then you realize this is not like the edges of the thing. The more skills required to really serve, like if you if you're cooking as a chef of poisonous fish, there's a responsibility and how to cook the damn things that you don't poisoning the .

people eating IT, I would agree. But to get back to your question, let's imagine that somebody produces a new set of leny Bruce albums. Yeah, so leny Bruce was White.

Leny Bruce use the term nigger in his sets. The question, would I want leny Bruce albums now to be perfect of the infamous inward? My response, absolutely not.

Is another following the question, what you think i've seen um trowed you done about this particular book, the title of those interviews on youtube elsewhere we use the full word. Would you think about that? Should I use this word in the title.

in my view would be yes. Again, are there are people i've been on interviews, i've been on stage with people who um had a different conclusion reached and um you know I I respect a different way again, there is a place for for you for ism again at all at all. Depends i'm i'm not offended, but imagine let's imagine that you posted this and you had a stress instead of spelling IT out.

Would I be offended? No, wouldn't be offended. I would prefer the full spelling, but I would understand where you're coming from. What I defended me .

now I would defended me there's the weird calculation is which version of the world in the title as soon as that is brings more love to the world, it's hard and and basically your answers, I don't know your answers can have to do IT and find out.

I'm not sure I again need other certain questions in which the certain questions you you we're not really going to know. There's no sociologist who's gonna able to tell us that. So what do we do then? Then we go to secondary positions. And my secondary position is, I don't know. One thing that I hold on to, however, very strongly, is, uh, the virtue of openness, the virtue of transparency, the virtue of freedom. And I feel as though if i'm holding on to those things, if i'm trying to engage in a serious conversation in which i'm trying to make other people understand me and i'm listening carefully to other people, I think IT is I feel that is I feel this is going to eventuate in something positive and you know I I feel okay.

You're at harvard and you are one of the most respected people in the history of harvard. Um that said, you did write a book with the end word in IT and you also have a lot of opinions that chAllenge the mainstream perspectives on race from all sides. Hope we will get to talk about some of them um but what's your view on harvard and universities in general and speech yeah did you feel pressure for any direction on first of all, the title is book, the content of the book and in january .

of use on race yeah I am very oratory of harvard university. Um i've been at harvard since a one thousand nine hundred and eighty four. I think IT is a wonderful place to work.

I um there has not there I I have ah you know in in in the various positions i've taken with its in in particularly with respect to this book or all other books. What is harvard university done? Harvard university has done nothing but support sustainable encouragement.

Um you know I think that people get down on harvard university, I would say to anybody, imagine the following. Imagine that the ethos of harvard university became the governing ethos of the united states overnight. Tomorrow we would wake up in a much Better united states of america.

I um you know I I have i've been supported by harvard university, I think well of harvard university that's not to say that I don't have criticisms of IT but by and large harvard university more than by and large overwhelmingly IT has provided me and I think IT overwhelmed ly provides uh my colleagues with a work setting in which they can do their work uh without fear and you know that's a good thing. Are there are are there certain you know aspects of our university about which i'm critical yet? sure.

By the way, I think a few people ride fully wrongfully would disagree with you that if the e those hard diversity of over the country be a Better place. But there's a lot of interesting ways to break that down because harvard is not one, though there's a lot of things gone that are very interesting, yes, but one of the things that's happening is, uh, the disproportionate in a kind of aggressive growth of the administration versus uh, faculty students say I think the power university should be with the faculty in the students that the beauty is that where the flourishing happens and the more you have kind of rules and bureau cracked all this kind of stuff, the less powerful the university is.

I think that at my university and that many universities, that's right, there's too much bureaucracy, too much regulation. And you know, are there other dangers to freedom of expression at my university and at other universes? Answer, yeah, there are.

There are so, uh, and this is really hit home for me. There was, there was a period time which I was I was getting off of, you know, gotten i'd gotten off of all boards. I was just doing my work.

Forget i'm going to do my work. I'm not gonna be all you know associated with any organizations. In the last five years, that has changed quite dramatically.

I have I have gotten on various I A I rea sociate myself with various organizations, mainly organizations involving academic freedom because, uh, of what's going on at you on university campuses. Again, I have been, if is thus far, thus far, this hasn't pinched me where I live. But you mean in .

the space of ideas.

in the space of ideas, in the space of speech, in the face of, you know, teaching, you know, I I haven't, I haven't been punched, but I am concerned about things. So for incense, look to imagine that you're applying for a job, you know, you want to be an assistant professor, or that suppose that you're seeking a promotion are in on many university campuses. You are as to give A D, E I statement in which you say, um I plan to you know you know one one of the reasons why you should hire me or one of the reasons why you should promote me is because i'm going to you know advance the the dei uh ambitions.

diversity, equity and inclusion for people to know this is the general the set of programs are most universities now have.

Yes, that's right. So you know you've got a sort of you know basically what you're being asked to do, whether they say explicit or not. They don't say this explicit, but this is what they are.

What is up what you're being ask to do is to say i'm down with the diversity, equity and inclusion ethos program policy can camp and here's what i've done that shows that i'm done with this program and therefore, i'm okay. Well, you know a lot of what I do with fit very comfortable ly within that. But let's suppose that I didn't you suppose I didn't like this.

And by the way, there's certain aspects of the D E I you know industry that I don't like. You mean to tell me that, you know i'm being judged at an academic institution that suppose I want to be a chemist, but suppose I want to be a physicist, let's suppose I want to be on care um you know, you know a critic of literature. Um I oppose this program.

I know, you know, I I, I I don't think this is the way in which higher education should be going. Should I have to, on pain of relinquish ing my ability to be hired? Uh, should I have to sign onto this? Uh, just suppose.

And that would change IT around. Let's not make IT A D E. I campaign. Let's make IT a make amErica great again campaign. What will we think then?

Let's suppose IT was something that said, instead of its saying, D, E, I, let's make IT. Let's make IT say, um the advancement of american capitalism as we know IT. We want you to be done with that.

What if you done that shows us that you believe in the advancement of capitalism in america? Would I be happy? But no, I would say this is no.

Well, no. With respect to these, as far as i'm concerned with the you know the D E, I statement, here's another one. Um I just learned an effect. I mean, there's certain things that are happening and I must say I mean, i'm in academia, but it's it's it's new to me. I didn't know until relatively recently about position statements. So these are statements in which somebody writes an article this course I know I write an article and um it's not enough for me just to submit my article to some law review or to some you know some other sort of journal no, in addition to me submitting my article, i've got to give A A positionally statement in which I say whether I am you know gay or straight or what what have you in which I say my race, in which I say my nations, in which I say my you know my stds toward this ID logical position or that logical .

position .

think what what .

is this up a becoming a kind of a standard?

I don't know how widespread is. I know there was a night of very good article in the new york times, uh, a couple of days ago about these position statements. And in fact, that's what sort of tip me off.

Somebody had told me there's a law review at my home institution and I had a friend who sort of mentioned this off handling said, who said, well, I submitted an article to this journal and I was a little bit taken a back in so far as they did have me fill out a questionnaire in which in which I was required to state my race, state this, state that, state the other and you know as far as i'm concerned, well, what does that have to do with a proper assessment? Somebody's work. This concerns me. Um i'm concerned about the fact you while ago you mentioned a little while ago you mentioned the world negro.

Ah and I was talking with colleagues couple months ago in somebody mentioned that ah this word had come up in their class because what happened was one student was reading from a supreme court decision and the word negro was part of what they read out and another student held up his hand and said to the student who was reading a you should be careful because, you know, I find the word negro offensive and you need to be careful about even saying a word that would be offensive to someone and this person you know the teacher was, what should I say in those circumstances what should I have said and i've volunteer that you know and know you know and I said, well, guys, that's really interesting because see if that would come up in my claus um I would said, well. Frankly I don't know I don't see what the I don't even see what the big deal is because I use the word negro and um you know a harvard university is not on on some island that is you know apart from everything else is happening in the world that these things are happening in other places. If they're happening at stanford, if they're happening at yale, they're happening at columbia, um you know they're gonna happen at harvard um but thus far, and I am I am most specially experienced ed in life at harvard law school.

Harvard law school is an open environment in which ideas are a tested and they are tested uh fully and um it's it's because of that that I say I have been fully supported. Harvard law school feel that IT is an excEllent place in which to do work. I'm i'm i'm a fan, I am a fan and i'm not embarrassed say I am a fan a of of of my workplace harvard law school, very happy to be associated with harvard .

swiming out a in general education um there's something called critical race theory. Can you comment on what your thoughts about the this kind of perspective on race and race in amErica to the degree that it's becoming a part of the education program? okay.

So the first thing I want to what is IT? Well, the first thing I want to say about critical race theory is that critical race theory has become a term. So I going to put quotation Marks around the term critical race theory.

We can, we am in a minute, i'll talk about critical race theory without quotation Marks. But to begin with, I want to talk about critical race theory because the reason why people are talking about critical race theory so much now is because politicians, mainly republican right wing politicians, have created a boogie man. Critical race theory with quotation Marks around that they have created a bugging man, and they have tried to make IT.

Same as though this booking man believes all sorts of ideas that americans should load and that americans should fear. And they've created this boogie man, and they've created IT, and they've been a very good job of creating the boogyman. And they have mobilized a sufficient um um you know public support such that there are number of states that have passed laws prohibiting the teaching of so called critical race theory.

Now the first thing I want to say about this is that um this campaign, these these laws, these various policies telling teachers don't teach this and don't teach that you can, you can use this book. You can use that book. This is a frightening enrollment on freedom.

Freedom of speech, freedom learn, freedom to listen, freedom to read. That's terrible. And it's one of the most frightening things that has happened in american life in recent memory. So as the first thing I want to say about so called critical race theory now, now i'll say something. I'm to take the quotation Marks off of the term critical race theory.

Critical race theory is as a sort of you could have a nice conversation about actually what IT is um one way of viewing IT is say that well critical race theory is a community of ideas that comes from a community of people ah the community of people would be people in legal academia in the um you know the period nineteen eight starting and probably the middle of the nineteen and eighties. IT would be associated with people like direct bell IT would be associated with people like kimberley cincha, people like cher's Lawrence, people like Richard delgado, people like mary mosuto. And these are folks who held a embrace.

A couple of they articulated a couple of propositions. One of their propositions was that um liberal race policy was insufficient. They would say that um the racial policies of a person like mild boss, they're good martial. The liberal racial policies were insufficient to grapple fully with the pervasiveness and the depth and intensity of american racism. Basic claim, and I think, by the way, was a good claim.

Their basic claim was that american racism is more central, more deeply embedded in american life than most people perceived, including liberals and I think there was a lot of strive to that proposition um but then they also took on some other propositions with which I was in very strong disagreement. So I think it's perfectly fine to say that racism is a forced in american life that is deeper, more pervasive, more stubborn, more resilient, ent than I think people often, you know, often understand, often perceive. But then some of the folks you know, in critical theory.

Push further. One of the propositions that some of the people in critical race theory took was the proposition that amErica was doomed to always be a country that would be governed according to the dictates of White supremacy. Derek bell, who was a colleague of mine and a friend of mine, took that position.

He talked about the permanent of racism in an american life, and he took the position that the various changes that had been laughed in american life, we're really, you know, mainly cosmetic. They didn't a mount to a whole lot. I mean, direct bail to the position, you know, the second reconstruction, the civilians ts movement, well IT made changes.

But at the end of the day, black people were still you know, after the secondary construction, we're still in a position of almost no, I don't know, some of them would even say neo slavery. Well, I think that's ridiculous. Ah the second reconstruction changed a lot.

And as for new slavery, new slavery we talking about, uh H A black american was president of the united states between the years two thousand eight and two thousand and sixteen. I mean, what what are we talking about here? There has been a tremendous change, and I think people ought to understand that now.

And I saying that everything is pg king and all right no ah the united states is still a to a very largest extent, still a pig mentos racy. But that doesn't mean that a lot has a change. A lot has. So I disagree with certain tenets of critical race theory and have been very outspoken in my disagreement. There's another one to buy a way what I need to mention because we talked so much in our discussion about freedom of speech, freedom to teach, freedom of listening. Another big problem that I ve had with some of the people who talk of themselves as critical race theory people has to do with their attitude towards freedom, freedom of speech, some critical with theory people think that ah the american legal system is wrong in the attitude that IT gives to what they call hate speech, or the latter to that IT gives to what they would view as racist beliefs. Some some of the people who associate themselves with critical race theory think that racist belief ought to be expressed with the aid of state power, if need be.

Well, i'm against that and um you know I think we're at a moment an ironic moment in which actually is the right wing that has embraced some of the ideas that were champion by some of the some of the people who could call themselves critical race theories you know they say, oh, we are to experience hate speech well, the right wing is saying this critical race theory that hate speech so let's expression and so I you know again, i've been very outspoken in my criticism of some of the beral dimensions of critical race theory. So I i've been a critical of certain features of critical race theory. I have a apply.

What did certain features of critical race theory? You know, critical race theory, you know, these some aspects of IT that I think you've been useful or some aspects of IT that I think you've been you know profoundly wrong at IT. Um so that's where I am and I certainly in you know above all, I certainly am against any efforts to remove IT from you know the intellectual universe is is a part of our intellectual universe. People want to know about IT and people ought to debate IT and people ought to be free to make up their minds to conclude what they will about the strength, weaknesses of critical race there.

And we talk about the pessimistic in the optimistic .

perspective .

on race in the history of the twenties th century in america. I think you are very interesting perspective there.

But before yeah I love to look at the current moment and yet a conversation gland, Larry and jama quarter and from there IT became clear to me think john may clear how important to um the conversation about race is policing in today's society that that's where a lot of african americans feel is sort of the the pinna of racism sits the people who like believe there is still racism in america. There's still a lot of racism in america. That's where IT is so to what degree do you think there's widespread institutional racism .

in policing? Yeah well, um my first book yeah was a book called race crime in the war and nineteen .

ninety seven.

nineteen ninety seven. Well, time flies. Time flies. Unfortunately, unfortunately. the. The input is behind that book. stands. That book was propelled by a sense that with respect to the administration of criminal justice, african americans or. Uh, feel deeply aggrieved. And they feel deeply aggrieved with good reason and they feel deeply grieved with good reason in at least two dimensions on the one hand, on the one hand, african americans suffer from under protection. And in fact, in that book, the central theme of that book was that black americans suffer from under protection.

If you take a look at the broad, you know, the broad trajectory of american history and ask yourself what you know, in what way have black americans been most opprest? Well, take a look at the anti belm period, period before the abolition of slavery, before the abolition of slavery. And the the low cows were, most black people resided, namely the slave states, in a lot of those areas.

Question, was there a crime called the murder of a black person? Answer for a long per dent IT was no there might have been a tork you know of a White person killed the slave. I killed the slave ah that person could be sued because they had they had injured the property of another and would have to pay money to you know for that but had they committed a crime answer no.

In the anti baLance period, were black women protected against the crime of rape in most states? The answer was no. There was no such crime.

Let's go to after no, slavery is abolished. Thank god slavery is polished. Then let's sit. You know what happens? What you know. So we hear lunching, lunching between the from from eighty ninety until what's in nineteen thirty.

Well, I know in one hundred and ninety they were part that was probably know, I would say, but that there was probably average of lynching every day in the united states. Well over three hundred. Lunch hings a IT goes down.

That was the case in the eighteen nineties, probably the first decade of the twenty century. And then IT starts going down. What was lunching about? Lunching was about black people being executed outside the law.

Did the legal system do anything about that answer? No, no. You, you show me.

Show me cases in which people were prosecuted criminally for engaging in lunching. You come up in most places with a no set. Black people suffered the under protection of the law.

Do black people still suffered the under protection of the law? The answer is yes. Yeah people talk about the corner commission report. Nineteen and sixty eight black people were s you know, with respected the police, which your, which your main complaint, in many places the main complaint was we don't have the least protection, you know, when when things happened to us, when our houses are burgled, when our businesses are in coach upon by robbers, when our businesses are robbed, when we are assaulted, and then nothing happens. The police protect White people.

You'll protect us under protection, our society right now, if you take a look at the statistics who is most liable to be raped, robed, the victim of assault, what have you black people, I mean, and it's not even close under protection. So that's one way in which the administration of criminal justice harms black people by not doing what government is supposed to do, which is protect us. Fourth, the minute, you know, protect equal protection and underlined protection of the law.

So that was a big theme of race crime in law. Now, second thing, second, and this is the thing that gets most attention, and it's important, I think, that the other protection story does not get enough attention, but there's a second story. The second story is that black people have, historically and still today, are black people are subjects of invidious racial discrimination.

When IT comes to when IT comes to a police action. So you know walking. Down the street, walking down the street. You have a black person whose would say twenty years old.

You have a White person whose twenty years old, and let's make them men both is walking on the street and question attitude of the police towards these two. An attitude, you know, a complicated thing, you can show itself in various ways. You can show itself in a look IT can show itself in who who gets the look.

You know, black persons you know, walking on the street or running down the street. Why persons walking on street or running down the street? What happens with respect to the police? Um let's suppose that you know who who gets the second look, who is followed, who is detained for a moment.

But some of IT just on a small tension, apogee drop. But attitude is is an interesting one because a lot of IT, a lot of the interaction doesn't shop in the data. Detained, for example, start showing up in the data. But before then, the second look, the third look, the first look, this is where the great area of conversation happens, because a very .

much culture .

and society happens in the stuff that doesn't often shop in the data.

Yep, so I tell ah this really came home me several years ago. I was I was in new york city and was at a time when there was a lot of discussion over the stopped stopped for this basically in a racial profiling on the street I was walking was, I was, I was in harlem walking on the street. And Frankly, you know, the police weren't bothering me.

I mean, walk. And no, no police weren't bothering. Maybe, you know, i'm at the certain age.

I I did notice though, I was, I was looking at the police, and the way that the police attitude you had to do with body posture IT had to do with that, right? Who got a second look? I had did I noticed i'm i'm walking in the street.

I'm walking in horley there, you know there are White people in the street, you know, most of people that were black, some some panic. The level of content, the level of anus, the level of unfriendly inss that was pouring off the cup. The police, they won't.

They didn't say anything. No, they didn't say. They didn't say anything. IT was palpable. I could feel the attitude that was being being directed at the Young black men.

And the thing is, say, the thing is, it's not as if this doesn't matter IT matters. Because the way I saw IT, this Young black men knew they felt the content that the police were shouting. And this was gonna a consequence. The consequence that was gonna have is, let's imagine that the police did say, excuse me, um um you know, what are you up to now if you have been feeling this contempt, if you feel like the officer who is asking this question doesn't like you that knows anything about you, but just doesn't like you on side. You might answer in a certain sort away.

You're not going to give the cop the benefit of the doubt and basically think, well, you know, please and see know asking me this you know probably just trying to make neighbor od safe if if that's you're feeling, you know, please, please just asking me this, trying to make the neighbor od safe well, officer, the reason why here is such and such and you know, thanks for your service. That's one response. Another response is.

I'm not going tell you anything. You know, i'm not going tell you anything. I know that you don't mean and I know that you don't mean meaning good, I can tell you anything and I free believe.

And then the cup, having heard that then says something bad. You know, after five minutes, what do you have? You have an altercation on your hand.

And I I felt that and that is part and you're absolutely right. That's not written down. IT doesn't get the core. It's, it's, it's, it's there, but it's it's an important part of street life. It's an informal part of street and IT .

has ripple effects because that Young black man will probably talk shit about that cop later that day. So the narrow persist and the cop was also talk shit in the dirty y narratives. yes. And I think the content is such a it's a such a powerful thing.

It's so hard to disentangle. You're absolutely right, Young man. What suppose the story ends? Quote, well, right. He's gonna go and he's going to talking with his friends and he's going to say me, let me tell you, which has happened to me, and his friends are going to say, oh yeah, that doesn't surprise me. Let me tell you what I will happen to me.

And, you know, for two hours, this goes on the anger, the feeling of humiliation, the feeling of agreeement. Gross, it's disseminated and that's part of what we have. But that's not all of that's not that's you know that's important part of what we have, but we have even worse than that because then you ask the question, you know what about what about things we do know um I know this from, you know for my teaching this was brought up now there was a lawsuit in new york city.

And notice I didn't say, you know, I I didn't say birmingham, alabama, didn't say atlantic georgia. I didn't say ta hassi florida. I didn't say, you know, the deep south.

I didn't say montana. I didn't say idaho. New york city, yeah Cosmopolite place, metropolis in new york city.

The police were chAllenged with respect to their policies. A judge wrote a very lengthy opinion, and the facts were rolled out. And the facts were really quite horrifying people.

There were black men who had been stopped many, many times that wasn't just once over and over and over again. And circumstances in which they aren't not have been started. And you know, this has real consequences.

IT doesn't just show up pear, though of course, IT also shows up in other places with respect to the administration of justice. And uh, we still have a, you know, a big problem. Now you mention you, the police. You ask yourself, who are the state agents that almost. consequent.

The police, I mean, you walking down the street, what other agents have guns on them? What other agents are authorized by the war to shoot you under certain circumstances? The police, the police are the most consequential agents of the state that most people act with.

I mean there's there's um to push specular with of consequent in in a physical sense but if we return to the power of the psychological sense of contempt, I would say store clerks and stuff like that can also be a .

source of there.

not agents of the state right um but if we look at the landscape of contempt which throughout the twenty century, you know uh or the bus right, you can experience the same kind of contempt in other experts of society but yes.

the cost of consequences, the policeman or the police person is the person walking down the street with a .

gun gun.

And if you think about the way in which the law, the the extent which the police are authorized to use their force, the police have extraordinary um you know extraordinary authority, you know you your drive in your car and you're speeding, the police could arrest you right in there and take you to jail. That's an extraordinary ary power.

But they also have, because of that, the leverage, just one human to another. They have more levers to be an asshole, to show content to you, to be, to be the lesson, or to lean into the lesser aspects that there are natures, all humans can just to be an ashok, to show contempt. You had a bad day. They have the the more freedom to do that.

yes. And that's why, that's why, uh, police officers are very important. I recognize, I mean, I you know, I know police officers, they're a very difficult job, are a very important job, very important.

Again, remember what I talked about under protection, I want the police to protect me. I want the police to protect me from the best, the robber. So, you know, the police, i'm with the police.

We need good policing. We, but we need good policing. And for good policing, we need accountability.

And one of the scandals, one of the just absolute scandals of american law, is the extent to which the police are not held accountable. It's absolutely remarkable the the degree to which american law fails to properly hold police accountable. They have an important job, a difficult job.

I want them to be very well paid. And as far as i'm concerned, you know, we should be police should make more money, and they should be given given the importance of what they do, they should have more respect, more prestige, more money. With all of that, they should be held accountable. And the way things are now, they're not held accountable. And every day, we see the consequences in our newspapers, or just, you know, talking with people.

So what do you make of the different perspective on this? Uh, from to to bring a person that I will probably speak with hether mcDonald, who wrote A A book called warn cops and will often bring up the stuff that dush open the data uh to show the disproportion of motor homicides committed by african americans and will also justify racial profiling on their basis in stop in face programs and we'll also bring up things like, uh the fergus and effect uh saying that because of this push backs, push back and uh all the stuff were saying about police are the in those areas the police will step back in criminal increase.

I was on one debate with her and one of the things that I said is was a debate that was that was sponsored by the federal society, conservative legal group. Me know it's a lot concerned of law students at hard law school. We had a SHE, made a presentation and they has made to respond.

And one of the things that I said was when we're talking about the police, i'm i'm disappointed with the. Reaction of some of my conservative colleagues. And I would consider her to be one of my conservative colleagues because what are the sort of them? What are some of them? They are important precepts of conservatives.

One very important precept of concerns. Limited government. Limited government.

You know what concern is? Talk about the tendency of government to overreach itself and governmental agents to overreach themselves. And I say, you're right, you're right. I know right on why is that the you somehow forget that when you talking about the police, when you're talking about the police, you never, you you seem to be unaware of this tendency that is so much in your consciousness and other places.

But now when you talking about the police, you make IT same as though, and you know, other people are being paranoid, ed, when they talk about the danger of overreach, we need be very careful about the danger of overreach. Another thing with respect to the public, what to conserves transparent? Y and government, you're right, you're absolutely right.

We need transparency in government. So why is IT that so often? When we're talking about policing, why is IT that conservatives actually embrace police unions and are the enemies of transparency? Why is IT that you want to prevent the citizen from knowing that officers someone? So has there have been ten insurance in the last year in which citizens have complained about officers.

So and so don't you think the citizen autor know that? Why is that that you want to keep that under rats? So overreach, transparency tendency or they know the problem of uh governments agent corruption um why is that that those sorts of things or forgotten about when some conserves by the way, not all not all concerns there are some conservatives who has stuck and appropriately sold their guns and he said, a um we need to make sure the police stay in their land.

We need to make sure that the police do not overstep constitutional bounds. We need to be we need to insist on transparency. There are some conservatives who taken that line, and I salute them, but there are a lot of conservatives that would say either mcDonald was one of them who all of a sudden become just totally uncritical status when they're talking about the police .

so the the overstepping overreach that I could transparency um of course we see this kind of stuff in um uh foreign policy as well, which is a starting military conflict. Know a lot of the supporters, at least with the iraq and afghanistan wars were conservatives and and hawks and so on. So there's a lot of hypocrites, ms of principles and so on. But maybe one question is in this .

discussion .

about racism and policing, there is a lot of cops that might listen to this and feel like they're not being the profession is not being respected uh, they're not being heard um not being respected to the difficulty of the problem they are facing and can .

I just reject remember a few moments ago, mean, if if if if I were in charge things, if I were in charge things, i'd pay police more, in fact, much more than they receive. Um I do please have a very difficult job, extraordinary ary difficult job. I mean, for one thing, you know, sort of maintaining the law, the law, that's a very complicated thing.

The law, that's not an easy thing. I mean, I teach law. I spent a lot hours with very smart people trying to understand the law.

Very difficult. So here we expect people to understand the law at the same time that they are grappling with people, some of whom are violent. It's very difficult.

I respect police officers, and I said, we need police officers. You did not hear me say, by the way. So for so, we get a brand tax.

You did not hear me say, define the police, did you? In fact, to the contrary, I said, defined. Actually, I want more funds for the police.

I want to hold them accountable. I understand the difficulty of their job. I respect the police.

I want people to respect the police. I also want the police to respect specialists and demand that they do. I am not a police.

Abolish shi st. Far from IT, far from IT. Again, we need good policing. Uh, for good policing, we need good people.

To a degree, almost. Philosophical ics may be practically. Do you think people should be doing racial profiling? Profiling in general.

okay.

is a very difficult philosophical, moral, human question.

yeah. So first thing we need to do, and here we get back to the, you know, early part of our conversation, because we have focused so much on in the first part of a word. Here we have another word, profiling question. What is racial profiling? Now here we have, you know, in the weeds, we have people talking past one another.

I've been in conversations with police officers in debates and um we talk past one another because we are defining racial profiling very differently if us i've been i've been in conversations with police officers and they say, oh, i'm totally against racial profiling and I say, well, no, sir, what do you mean by racial profiling and here's what they say. Racial profiling is when police officers act against somebody wholly on the basis of race, that is that gets rid of the issue because you know, most police officers don't act against anyone holy on the basis of race. You could have the most racist police officer and that that police officer is not going to act adversely against the ninety year old black woman walking down the street with a okay, so it's all so you if you define racial profiling that way, you're getting rid of the issue.

The issue is, the proper issue is this, should the police be able to act against someone, are taking race into account as a factor. So let's imagine that a black person whose twenty five years old is walking down the street right next to a White person who's twenty five years old, some people would say, you know what, under those circumstances, it's okay for the police officer to give two looks at the black person and only one look at the White person. why? Because the statistics tell us that the black twenty five year old, there's much more risk of that person acting in an unlawful way.

If you take a look at you know crime statistics and ask the question. Ah with respect to you homicide, with respect to robbery, with respect to various you crimes, uh, what's the what what is there a is there is there a difference between the White twenty five year old and the black twenty five year old with respect to certain crimes? The answer is in certain places the answer is, yeah there is a difference and is and there is a greater risk that the black twenty five year old has engaged in various forms of i'm not that okay under those circumstances.

What do I say? Should the police officer there four be allowed to take action? VISA b the black person as a people, you know, as against the White person, my answer is no.

I'm fully willing to concede. Let's concede for the point of art, eno, for the point of discussion, that there is more risk. There might be, there might be. But for.

For reasons of constructing the sort of society I want, we should not empower agents of the state to act towards certain people in a way that you know, adverse to them. Let me try to break this stand in a little different way. Let's go back to let's let's talk about what happens when you wanna get on airplane.

You know, wasn't so well, you know, nine, eleven wasn't all that long ago, was a while ago. But when all that long ago and this very issue came up with the respective the profiling of muslims, and there were some people said this in the aftermath of nine, eleven, profiling of muslims make sense, you know, no hard feelings. But you know, the eleven people who are those plans were all muslims.

Now there is a rational. You could just simply say it's not, it's not prejudice, it's not animals. It's not in video.

It's just, you know, the facts take us this way, but the facts never take us this way. There are facts. And then there is our choice of how we want to respond to those facts.

Now you could respond by saying, well, we perceive muslims. Ms, to be more likely to, you do bad things on an airliner. You could, you could respond in that way.

On the other hand, you could say, no, we want a society in which people, or do not have to grab with prejudice on the basis of their religion, on the basis of their race. And to deal with that, we're gonna demand. We're gna demand the agents of the state x towards people in the same way.

And so if that means that everybody getting on the airplane before they get on the airplane has to, you know, open up their luggage. And IT slows things down, but everybody has to open up their luggage. I would prefer that over a system in which we focus on people who are muslim.

And one of the reasons, and i'm i'm bring this back to our to the racial thing, one of the reasons why I I want to insist on that is because if, you know, if we all have to open up our luggage, what that means is we're all paying attacks for more security. And we are all likely to ask ourselves HMM do we want to pay this tax? Whether if we focus simply on the muslims and allow the muslims to be the only ones who are sort of paying the tacks, we'll voice that on them.

Same in the, you know, black person, White person, twenty five years old, walking down the street. Do we want to impose a racial tax on the black twenty five year old? Some people would say, yes.

I say that a mistake. Black people aren't stupid. They know that they're paying this tax. IT is a violation of IT. Seems me the rules that wish out to want to have to govern society, I say, spread the cost, make the police deal with everybody the same. Um and don't don't allow a situation to develop in which a group of people can can um accurately say we are paying more of a cost than these other people over here.

So it's a Better avoiding profile is. While IT may have a costs on security in the short term, in the long term it's the embodiment of the principles that all man are created equal. So IT has a much bigger benefit in representing the fairness. Yes, that is a core of all the ideas of this country.

Yes.

let me ask a big for offical question. Why do you think there is racism .

in the world? And now you've okay, fine. You've now you've asked me a question, which I throw at my hands, and I don't know.

will there always be why is there tribal ism? Are humans always finding this way to divide ourselves? And um how bad of a problem .

is .

that a .

huge problem? I don't you know I mean, I I don't i'm not pretend that I know enough to grab all in a satisfactory way with such a question. I mean, to really grab with that question, one really has to have all away a very broad knowledge base in which they can make comparisons.

Mean, the world's a big place. Now, from the little bit, I know about the world, and I I read, I read much as I can. I've been, am a very privileged character. I mean, I i've live in a university, so i'm reading constantly and listening constantly. From what I gather, the problem of divided society is a problem that is worldwide. There's no and IT seems as though IT seems as though human in genuinely is such that humans will find something to divide over and you know IT might be texture repair IT might be um you know completion of skin .

ideology ideology.

If the texture, if the texture, if the texture of skin is the same, it'll even be, well, you know, you you wear this sort of clothes, you speak in this sort of way. Um you believe this, whether I believe that I mean, IT seems like a human engineering is such. They will humans will find some way of distinguish themselves and then they seem to want to embarrass the distinction.

It's not just the distinction is not just you believe this and I believe this. Okay, that makes really interesting. You know, let's talk about what you believe, what I believe.

No, it's usually associated with you believe this. I believe this. Of course, my wit, my belief, is superior to your belief, and I wanna put you down. And now we're heading towards war. The interesting .

thing is I fail to step outside of this whole thing for alien perspective, visiting earth. I think amErica is one of the greatest of, not the greatest countries in the history of human civilization. And I think that the the line between White and black, the racial struggle, is a thing that in part made IT a great nation. There's something about the division in the way you alleviate that division through the struggle for human rights that makes for a great nation is so interesting that the division is almost the fuel for the greatness of our discovery. What he means to be human, what IT means to be uhh, what justice means of um IT is interesting that IT seems like there's the struggle that you you're lucidity now but that struggle itself is our search, a man's search for meaning and justice and freedom.

I think there's something to that as you speaking. I was immediately thinking of the person who, you know most jumped to mine was the great Frederick Douglas. So, woman, here you have a person who, in my view, is one of the great people in the history of the world.

And you know, one of the things that ironically enabled him to become one of the great people, the world he was born, he was born in the slavery he's overcoming, was the very thing that in the since made him this larger than life figure. And I think there's something to you. I will say this because a million ago you mentioned optimism, pessimism and.

Ah i'd say in the last. Few years, my feeling about the united states has changed, and it's changed in the somber way for most of my life. For most of my life, i've been in the optimistic camp with respect to my view, american race relations.

You know, the the optimistic camp that was the camp that's the camp that believes we shall overcome that's that's marlon king came up, I mean, more king or more to king hours before it's killed. I've been to the mountain top. I might not get there with you, but i've glimpsed the promised land and that optimism, uh, Frederick Douglas would be in that would be in that tradition. Um there would be other people, uh, wonderful, good people, who would be in that tradition.

Would you interact, put in the best mist camp? Would you put male .

the pessimistic camp? The pessimistic camp is the more interesting king mean ideology, I mean is it's the more interesting cap because in the pessimistic, can you have I mean, if I was gonna list some of my pessimist business number one, Thomas jeffson. Thomas is jeffson, the author and principal author.

Declaration of independent. He was also the author of notes on the state of Virginia, and he said, in notes on the state of Virginia, basically, we shall not overcome he talked, he said, you know, um the black people will always know. That their four bears were enslaved.

And they will always be resented of that, always be aggrieved by that. Jeffson did not think that we would ever have in the united states a multi racial democracy. He was very critical slavery.

Now he was a hypocrites. He had slaves. He sold slaves. He was terrible that way. But he did understand that slavery was horrible.

But he did not want he, he, he up that he, he did not want to free the laws for variety reasons, but in one reason was because he thought that IT would be impossible to have a society in which blacks and weights were equal. neighbors. He was surely pessimistic. Another pessimist, Alexis, to talk vill thorough, pessimistic.

So who were some of the other pessimists? Abraham lincoln? pessimistic. That's why I was so interested in conservation. He basically said, you know, I like slavery, but black and Whites not going to able to share the united states. Maybe the best we can do is just, you know, put back the ship, blacks.

and play else can you library. And I think people be surprised to hear. H, yeah, you will put Abraham link in the business.

Can h ham lank on? Thirdly, pessimistic. He was he. He believed he was anti he. He was anti slavery, but he did not believe that black and Whites would be able to share the united states together. And he was always very interested, therefore, in conversation, even after the eat during the civil war, he was interested in, you know, maybe, maybe, maybe all black people.

Would all black people be interested in maybe going to panama? Would they be interested in going some place cells? Because, you know, lincoln was aware of how racist weight people were, including himself, and did nothing that black people and White people would be able to share the united states now that there's a black national tradition.

You mentioned mk. Maxwell before mk maxim Marks garv. Um my father, my father was a thorough pessimist.

His view was a the united states was born as a White man's country. It's gonna remain a White man's country and that's the way IT is. He was surely pessimistic.

You mentioned just a brief aside what you died that um when you moved to south CarOlina, washington, dc um and you asked him why he responds you was because either a White man was going to kill me or I was going to kill .

a White .

man yes so he saw race as an important line that divided people in the next states.

He certainly did and need to thought that the line my, my father did not. My father had passed away before the government, before obama was elected. I would have loved to have talked with my dad anything he was said.

And you read, you wrote a book about the about me.

I did, I did and I didn't. I never. What would my father has said? My father would have been delighted. My father would have been happy about his election.

I do think, though, I do think that my father would have said i'm happy that barack obama has been elected. Hold on to your seats. Let's see how the White people respond.

So he would have .

predicted down. I think that my father, I think that in twenty sixteen, I think that in twenty sixteen said.

I told you.

yes, I think that in twenty sixteen, my father would said, all you people who are talking about, I don't know what happened to amErica and how could this have happened? And, you know, no, I think my father would say, this is amErica being america. And what has happened is that amErica has been put off culter by a black family being in the White house.

IT is danged millions of White people. And now this is coming home to roost. So I think my father would have absolutely said in twenty sixteen, I told you so.

And twenty sixteen, uh, as you're saying, is the reason that you have at least uh, dip your top outside of the optimist campaign.

the customers camp. I'm I yeah I wanna be careful here. And I don't want to give .

up in the .

optimist. I don't I don't you're right. I don't want to give up on the optimist camp.

I don't. I, I if I have been, my optimism has definitely been happened, is definitely been tested. I am certainly no, i'm, I am, i'm not.

I am not as a triumph st. As I want was. I am not as indignant as I want was in my criticism of pessimism.

But at this moment, as we speak, you know, am I more in the optimist camp and i'm in the pessimist, and am still probably more in the optimist camp by myself, optimism has been dampened. But as I speak, I have to say the following things. And I say the following things with my father, but again, whom I reviere great man.

But if my father was sitting here with us, I would say, listen, pop, ah, it's absolutely true that the country is more racist. Then I had thought that is true. It's also true, pop, that the vice present of the united states as we speak is a black woman as we speak.

It's true that the secretary of defense, now secretary of defense, the secretary of defense is the head of the pentagon. The secretary of defense knows where the button is. Okay, this is not a little, you know, this is not a small at the way.

Think this is the the secretary of defense is a black man. There are a slew of black generals. There have been black secretaries of state.

There are black people who are the heads of police forces. There are black mayors. There are black people who are the heads of, you know, some of our foremost foundations.

There are, you know, the, the, the president. A left of harvard university is a black woman. And we could go on and on and on and on. This is not, know, we're not. When I was growing up up, when I was growing up, when I was to say, ten years old, we got a magazine editing magazine every month.

And in ebony magazine, you could turn to the middle of ebony, and they would have black first, the first black person to do this, the first black person to do this. You could read up any, and Frankly, I could tell you all of those for, and their names. Now I read stuff, you, the the leading codec, the chief cadet at the united days nail academy, i'm reading, i'm reading.

Then I see a picture. Black woman, I didn't know that back in the day. I would know that now.

Has the united states changed? yes. Is there racism? yes.

Is that, you know, a substantial force in american life? ReGretably tragically, yes. Has the united states changed? yes.

And again, if we want to go, go international, the united states is not the only country that is a country that is wrestled with deep division. You think about ano, think about india, think about, you know, the united kingdom. Think about, partially, any large nation state. They've all grappled with divisions.

If one else about the united states in the race question, and one puts on the table that, you know, in eighteen sixty five now, you know, when I talk with students, I say eighteen sixty five, they think, oh my god, you know, isn't that when dinosaurs room? No, what? And when dinosaurs room? Eighteen sixty five, Frankly, is not all that long ago.

In eighteen sixty five, the great mass of black people in the united states had recently been released from chatter slavery. The great mass of black people in united in eight hundred and sixty five were illiterate. now. I mean, it's absolutely it's it's an absolutely extraordinary story. And so one of the difficult tips I have at this moment is wrapping my head around two stories that are in such tension with one another. One is the continuing story of racism, which is an awful story but the other story is a story that isn't capsule ted in the title of a great book of history by um john hope Franklin from slavery to freedom and you know those are two stories in american life and IT takes an awful what to put your mind around both stories i'm trying to well .

as an optimist, I think you put more value to the overcoming side of the story the overcoming of hardship, the overcoming of slavery, of discrimination a well, since you mention the literacy from what is a hundred years ago, i'll let me ask you about a formative action. You're a book on the topic. Titles for discrimination raised a formative action in the law. First, what is a formative action? And maybe we could talk about what your view is IT .

on IT today. sure. Well, affirmative action refers to racial affirmative action because there is very sorts of affirmative action. You can have affirmative action for veterans. You can have affirmative action for um uh in state residence.

Let's put you have a school you know the university of you know blow blah blah and we're going we're going, we want to reach we're we're gone to give a reach out a hand to boost, help the people who live within the state. We're going to have a boost for veterans. We're gona have a boost for, you know, for women.

We're going to have a boost for men, certain circumstances. Well, word of the the the most the the type of affirmative action that gets most attention and its worth noting is well in the lots of version sorts of affirmative action. But when you say a formative action, the type of affirmative action that immediately people are thinking about, this racial .

affirm seems like races at the core of the american experiment that was .

part of in every part of its bingo culture, bingo. Why is IT that? We again, and there's various there's various ways in which institutions reach out to help various sectors of our population.

Why is IT that? This is the one that generate ates, all of the pulling out of hair and nationality of teeth. We can put that to aside for a moment. A racial affirmative action refers to efforts in which institutions 啊啊啊 you know， reach out to provide assistance to racial minorities. Now the reaching out has can happen in different ways.

A light form of performative action might be reaching out in terms of recruiting, making a special effort to make sure that the Young people, let's say, in ratio minority neighborhoods, know about your college, you know let's in your recruitment um on the other hand, uh racial affirmative action might take more you know make might take a stronger form and might take the form of saying, okay, we have a competition and um we think that there will be too few racial minority kids who do well enough in this competition to be to be admitted to our school. So what we're going to do is we're going to uh in various ways, give a boost to the minority kids. Um if if IT comes down till you have two kids, they both you know when have you know ninety nine on the test there's one place left.

We only have one spot left. Two kids, ones a black kid, ones a White kid. They both get ninety nine.

We're gona give IT to the black kid. why? Well we begin the black ID though all there is to IT with a black kid.

We want to, you know, maybe, and then our theory, you know, maybe our theory is that black people have been done wrong in the, in united states. And we want our institution to contribute to making our minds. That might be a theory. Another theory might be, um you know we is as we we think that we'll have a more interesting student body.

We will have a Better student body, a more you know Better discussion if there are more black kids on campus and unless we make a special effort to bring more black kids on campus, you know, our our student body will be overwhelmingly mono racial, will just have White kids, uh, few asian kids, a few latino kids that, you know, black kids here, you will be lacking an important aspect of american life. So that some sort you know the so called diversity story so I need that they're various theories. Some are grounded, like I said, in repair of justice.

Some might be granted and distributive justice for insane. When people say nowadays you um we want a cabinet, we want a team, we want a student body that looks like america. That might be A A distributive justice theory for why you want a formative action.

Unless we reach at us and must we reach out and give a boost to certain groups, they won't be here and we want a campus that looks like america. And we won't have a campus that looks like amErica unless we give a special boost to to know the latino kids, unless we give a special boost to black applicants. So repair of justice, distributive justice or third, diversity, we just want to have an interesting student body and to have an interesting student body.

We want, you know, kids from a wide array of places. We think that we'll make for a Better campus, more interesting campus. Those are three justifications, all of which, however, are justifications for in a competition giving a special boost to some people based on their race.

to, what's your sense? Can you make the case for affirmative action and can make the case against that?

Yeah, I can make the case for, and I can make the case against the case for. I want to spend much time on this, I guess. So there's there there's three there are three main justifications. Um your audience should know that one, the justification that actually late to a firm of action is a justification that you know hear about in the courts because the courts have said that, that justification is insufficient.

So the real justification behind a former of action was in late one thousand hundred and sixty, in the aftermath of the civil rights revolution, in the aftermath of the civil rights movement, there was a feeling that, well, okay, fine, we're not discriminating against black people anymore. But black people have been disastrous tage by the discrimination that has been put upon them. And this discrimination that was put upon them has disabled them.

And so they're going into competitions and it's unfair. Yeah they score less well on the standardize test, but you don't surprise surprise what the heck they went to schools in which they got the waves of the White folks. You know, the White folks gave the black folks the old textbooks.

That's what the black kids read. The White kids read the new with textbooks on and on and on. So repaid justice, we're going to try to repair the scars left by past racial injustice, and we're going to.

And so it's sort of an effort to overcome the passages of past miss deed that was one justification for form of vacation. And Frankly, I think that's the justification that has always been the predominant justification, whether people owned up to IT or not. But that's one justice, the distributive justice justification is, is there like a ano people, we want an integrated america. We wanted amErica that looks like amErica um in that justification, legitimacy is sometimes mention.

So for instance, people say things like, well, you know, if we're in the armed forces, you can have an armed forces in which the you know the sort, the people on the ground or you have a lot of people on the ground who are people of color, but none of the people calling the shots, none of the generals, none of the maybe, you know, coronals are people of color. no. And then now, you know, the the people on the ground are not going to stand for that. So for purpose of legitimation, we need to for, for, for purposes of buying, we need to have a situation in which people get the sense that even if their sort of low down, they're still part of the story, they're part of the team. So that part of the sort of, you know, I don't know, distribute of justice notion.

do you think that's power to that? That do you think this value is correctness to that kind of idea? I think there's some cause for the application process for different universities.

I think that that's probably a driving narrative, the justification for for, well, a formative action. I don't know where we put D E I efforts because they overlap IT. You're not perfectly uh overlapping .

the reason that the school so yeah as you know, there is a case you will we'll know about IT. It'll be announced sometime in the next month um well month month a half um in the case of spring, the united states, in which the affirmative action programme at harvard and the affirmative action program at the universe of even with collina are being chAllenged, most people think, including me, that the supreme court of the united states is going to limit, if not totally seek, to abolish affirmative action. So this is a very burning issue.

As things currently stand, my university and other universities embrace a formative action on the third ground, the diversity ground. And what they say is we need a firm of action, because a firm of action, uh, is good for pedagogical reasons. Now Frankly, do I think there's something to that? I think there's a little something to that with respect to some subjects.

I don't think that's what's really going on for the most part. I mean, if that's what's really going on, why, why? Why don't we have more foreign students?

You know, why aren't why isn't there a greater effort to bring in more foreign dents? Why isn't there are a greater effort to bring in more? I don't know, religious fundamentals.

Why isn't their greater effort to bring in? You can just name various groups that are you know you hardly ever see them on campus. So you .

don't think this kind of effort of driving towards diversity is um uh rigorous enough.

I think it's often pretexts. I think Frankly, the real reason has to do with the belief. And I think it's a good belief. I associate myself with the belief. It's it's just that because of the legal rules, the authorities can't say this belief out loud, but it's still the case that a lot of institutions want to help american society overcome its racial past. That's the real animating forced on this thing about you know we will have Better classroom discussions uh you know some discussions I mean you know with some subjects yeah eat listen i'm you know i'm an ignorant as when IT comes to physics my sense of IT is however that um you talking about physics, you talking about physics and Frankly IT doesn't much matter in terms of mastering physics, what the demographics of the classroom you even know physics you're down.

The interesting thing i've noticed doing this pocket is a one way that does not matter. It's really lonely when you do a thing and you don't see somebody that looks like you doing that thing, and it's such as seemly stupid thing. What is the matter if there's another person that looks like you in this very slow sense? But that seems to matter to people.

And when I talk to, for example, women in this power cast, a lot of women reach out saying how inspiring that is. And that's interesting, right? Like, I think we're still human and we see people that look like us. And this kind of narrow shower definition diversity so matters.

Okay, well, you know, I think I think I think you've made a good point, and maybe so. So let's go back to the physics. I mean, let's suppose that under one scenario, there is a classroom and a kid sticks his head in.

A black kid sticks in the classroom and then see anybody else black there and has to make a quick decision and says, yeah, you know, not the same for me verses they stick their head in the classroom. They see a smattering other black people in the classroom, is, let me try this. And then they try IT.

And IT turns out them out there, you know, Albertini in. So, you know, to that extent I can see, no, under that scenario, maybe IT does matter. So, you know, I have to retaliate.

Ate still, those are the three. Those are the three leading justifications for formative action. You ask me, where do I staying with respect to a formula? action? Oh, no.

Before we get to that, are there criticisms? All the answer is, yes. There are criticisms of affirmative action.

Affirmative action is a policy like, you know, any policy, any policy is gna have some downsides to IT in affirmative actions no different is a firm of action have some downsides. Yes, he does have have some downslide ts. What are they? Well, let me mention a couple.

One um stigma, stigma. So if if you have an institution that says that IT reaches out to give a boost to certain people on a racial basis, they're gonna be people who observe that and who were going to be thinking to themselves. Hm, if someone so is here and they were given a special boost, doesn't that mean that they were not as proficient as the other people who are here and who did not have that boost?

So if they are not as proficient, that means that they might not be as good they might not be is up to stuff. Is that part of our affirmative action world? Yes, it's part of our firm action world.

Yes, i'm a professor at harvard law school. One of the subjects I teaches contracts. Actually, that's probably the subject I most enjoy teaching. I think I most enjoy writing about racial conflict and the legal system, but as first teaching, I most enjoy teaching contracts. Well, on the very first day, on the very first day when I know eighty students come there, especially in the first year, students are in a nervous. I show up.

I'm quite sure that there's some students there who are thinking OK well, is this guy as good as my other teachers because, you know, I know that the, you know institutions like harvard have made a special effort to bring in people like this guy Kennedy is he is good. Well, I mean, i'm sorry, if you have an a firm of action regime, people are gone to think that. And are they crazy to think that that they're not crazy to think that would know that's a perfectly logical thing for somebody to think.

Does IT does that have an effect on me as a teacher? Yes, actually doesn't an effect on me. sure.

I'm aware that some people are thinking that he doesn't. But now, you know, with that with IT, isn't IT doesn't, you know, make me shake in my boots. Am I aware? But I am aware of IT doesn't have an effect, probably does have an effect.

IT probably does IT probably IT probably makes me IT probably makes me redouble my efforts because I don't want anybody to think just viably that i'm less able in my colleagues. So you know, it's one of its funny. When I was growing up, my father used to tell me over over again, Randy, tie, tie, you lose.

Okay, rather let me just tell you that. And he was telling me that because when he was no in in an earlier time tie tie, you lose IT was, you know, if it's even and there's a choice to be made, the White person is going to get the benefit of the out. Now under reformative action, there's been a switch room. Often times, it's the black person who gets the benefit of the doubt, but i'm still in a situation .

to work hard.

Yes, to avoid the signalizing. Yeah, that is imposed. The action is that there? Yes, is there.

IT is there. I'll take another way in which IT comes up from a students point of view. I'll never forget this.

He was my second year law school. He was in tax class. We had a very famous tax teacher, wonderful tax teacher, on the very first day class.

Professor bicker, wonderful man, wonderful teacher, boris bicker called on, the very first person called on was a black student. I remember this as as we were yesterday call on a black student. IT was a black woman student.

And I remember when he called honor, I remember just I felt. I, I, I felt as if the room got quieter, really, I felt as if the room got quieter. And I know there was a real tensest within me.

You can call on me because this call on somebody else was a black woman student. And I felt different. I felt as if I was. I felt as if I was somehow. At issue, I felt as if my place, I felt as if my status was the snow, some small degree, an issue in the positive direction.

the negative .

just issue. And so now all this is happening really quickly. He calls on the student, this is, you know, happening like in seconds, and he responded and he responded really strongly was class.

He asked a question. He answered the question. He answered the question.

You know, beautiful. I mean, you know, very strong, comprehensive, wonderful response. Now you might say, okay, well, you know smart didn't.

Okay, fine. Next, after class, after class, I went up to her, and I clearly remember this. I said, that was great.

Thank you. why? Because of black student predicate, White e institution, yale law.

And I felt some of the, again, you know, a form of action. I felt. Some of the burden of this firm action stigma.

So IT was almost like a thank you for showing that we belong here. Yes.

perfect. boom. Yes, that's exactly what the situation. And by the way, I I won the only one.

I wasn't being IOS in I when the only one, they weren't many black people in that class, but all of us and we laugh about IT. Later we left about IT, but that there so there's there's the stigma issue. And some people have made a lot of this.

Some people have really made a lot of the stigma. E, my add to towards the stick issue. Yeah, it's there.

It's no again, it's it's part of, you know, it's part of the situation. But I think that the benefits outweigh burns. But is that a burn? Yeah, the burn. What is your mother's resentment? Resentment society and that's a know so in these in the fancy schools.

And by the way, you know, remember when we're talking about a formative action, most colleges and universities in the states there, there is no firm of action issue because they're not selective theyll take anybody know if you can pay? Come on in. It's only a fairly small set of schools that are selective.

But of course, those are the most lead schools. Those are schools that people most want to get in to. And that's one of the reasons why we have all the thing of fighting over the schools now um you know there's a whole how many millions of people are there in amErica who have applied to various places they didn't get in and what did they say?

The White person who applied to harvard, applied to yale, applied to columbia, you know, apply to George town. Try to N, Y, U, you go going to know, didn't get in. What do they say? I would have gotten kif.

IT hadn't been for that racial, affirmative action. They're infor. Well, you know, should they be presented now, they shouldn't resented, but they are resented.

Does that have a consequence yet have a consequence? IT has a consequence on how they act towards other people. That has a consequence on how they vote. IT has a consequence. And you know, that's that's something.

Are the other things yeah and you know in my book I I I have you know I go through there is um I think that I think there is A I think there is a certain sort of denial, alison, that has accompany the affirmative action debate. So because. You know, black people like myself want to avoid the stigmatizing bird of performative action.

There are some people who to deal with that has said, oh, actually, there is no difference between, you know, the beneficiaries of a firm of action and the other kids there is no difference um if if the affirm of action kids got, let's say a five hundred and the other kids got a seven fifty uh that doesn't make any difference. That's just B S there. You know there are only reason the kid you know the five fifty kid didn't get seven fifty is because the test as all sorts of you know biased, culturally biased things like, you know what is a yet.

Well, sorry, yes, there is a difference. There's a two hundred point difference. Does the difference matter? Yes, the difference matters. And by the way, if you don't know what a yard is, you can know what a yard is without owning a yet. okay. And there is this denialism that I think has really seats into not just that you know in into various conversations that .

can have a slippery, slow perfect is beyond just this. yes.

And you know we see IT in various way. So you know you know this attack on testing, it's not like i'm holding that you know some tests are not good tests. I think we should be skeptical of everything, but there are lot of test that yeah they tell us something, all right? They tell us who knows what.

And um there's some people who are really you know did set against testing because their dead set against anything that might show a gap. Well, I think, by the way, you know are there gaps? Yeah there gaps.

And what we need to do is be cognition of those games and do things to make IT so that if there is a gap, if you, if you're deficient, no, no shame in being deficient. Hi, i'm deficient about a lot of things which you know let's learn so that I catch up. But others you know bit I think sometimes they're been people who've been afraid of even acknowledged the gaps.

Of course, there's A I guess a colleague of yours, Michael, and do with with terri merit. There's a interesting, rigorous ways to kind of chAllenge ways on the flip side of that were obsessing with mary can go wrong also.

Yes, you mention Michael sandel is A A A wonderful colleague and he's a wonderful friend. I've known him a long time. I think he makes very important uh arguments a about merok racy um I disagree with uh some of the pointed makes you so you lean towards .

the important many talk I think .

um yes I think I think that there are values and marital crache extreme important that in fact you know the the the movement from futile ism, the movement from status, the the the the idea of you know I don't you know I don't care who you you know, father or mother was. I don't care from what part of town you come from. I don't care what your last name is.

I don't care what your color of your skin. Show me what you can do, and then somebody sits down. Okay, i'll show you what you can do and what I can do.

They show IT you're in. I think there's a lot to that. And you know that the impulse to sentiments behind that, I, I, I resonate with that. I think that there's a lot there. What I want to do is um I want to get rid of those features in society that deprive people of uh the the what you need to develop yourself um you know sometimes those are psychological.

Sometimes it's um you know you're not around people who've done things that give you the idea you can do things I wanna get rid of that but the idea of you know people um the idea, by the way of you know distinguish you know this is excEllent and the people who are excEllent, you know they're they're here and then there are people who are good. Are they excEllent? No, they're not excEllent. They're good. Um I wanted i'm not gonna my eyes is that distinction and highlight .

the distinction and yet at the same time maintain a sense that the basic worth is the human beings equal yes.

So let me know, was the run D M. C one of the rap groups no, you know, we're all written down on the same list. Yeah, we're all written down on the same list. Yes, where you know so I want to recognize our fundamental humanity um I don't think that that I think that one can recognize our fundamental humanity and one can also recognize as far as i'm concerned that um we all collectively should make sure that we we do all that we can to prevent people from sinking below a certain level and being you know in misery i'm you know all for that but I wanna be careful about some of the attacks that I hear on maroo racy.

So some of the people, including again, I I have also respect in the world for for, for, for, for for Michael and dad and I talk about the the the arrogance of the winners. Okay, I wants to be, you know, I I I don't want the winners to be arrogant. That's right.

A luck has a lot to do with things. You know, you, you, you didn't have any control over the circumstances in which you were born into. You were lucky that you were born healthy and that you were born with a, you know, well, working mine.

You didn't have anything to do with that. That was pure luck. There are some people who don't have that work. So I know you know, you know, don't be, you know, mr. Big stuff.

Okay, so know i'm against that sort of air against you know i'm entitled as if as if I taught myself, had to read. Now you didn't teach yourself, had to read. There were people who did all sorts of things for you.

You don't even know IT. okay. So you know I want to you know get rid the air Rogers have have decent humility on all for that at the same time.

You know um I anna, be careful about the problem of envy. I want to be, I want to be careful about the problem of resentment. I want to be, I want to be careful about, you know, I heard, you know, so what's not have?

Let's not give a trophy to the person who wins the race. Because to give a trophy to the person who wins the race will make the person who they defeated feel bad. No, no, no, no, no. I don't want that. I want to give a trophy to the person who wins the race, because I think it's a good thing to the the best.

Yeah, it's it's a kind of celebration of this whole human project they are on is celebrating the best. You mention your father several times. So let me just linger on that. What have you learned from? What do you learn about life from your father?

There's i've been just such a lucky person I am. I feel like i've just lived an absolutely charmed life, and I I live. I mean, the work that I do is what I love doing um I would pay to do what I am pay to yeah I think it's IT it's it's great.

And um i've been i've been fortunate in so many ways and one way in which i've been fortunate is a my parents my parents um Rachel span Kennedy, Henry harold Kennedy, my mother born columbia, china, my father from new orleans, Louis ana, they were refugees from the gym cross south ah they were people who put there all into their children my older brother of a Younger sister, all three of a snow beyond, you know, beyond any controversy that we were loved and dearly loved by our parents and they were great people my father um very interesting man, very independent minded. He was perfectly willing to go his own way and I learned much from him, including, I learned, I learned things from him, even when I ultimately disagree with him. So first, since, again, to go back to his pessimism, yeah, he was pessimistic.

Thirdly, pessimistic. But he was also, he was also willing to change in certain ways, effect both my parents. I mean, one of the most important things that happened in my parents was that i'd say.

When I was, let's say, ten years old husband n one thousand nine hundred and fifty four, so in one thousand sixty four in one thousand nine and sixty four I think my parents would have taken the position that um you definitely never under any circumstances trust a White person. If a black trust and trust White person, that person is a fool. Do not trust White people all right? They are not to be trusted.

And um it's the highly, highly, highly unusual one who is not prejudice. okay? So White people are not to be trusted and you know by and large, you're going to be your enemy. It's unless your face that that's that's was there there point view um i'd say that.

I'd say that ten years later that point of view had been living somewhat um I think you know you say, well, what happened those ten years well certainly in my life, one of things that happened in those ten years is I I was a student in various schools and I had a series of teachers. I've had wonderful black teachers. I've also had wonderful White teachers.

And my parents paid attention to who my teachers were and how my teachers treated me. And I think they were affected by the way in which there are White people who really helped me. And we're on my side and we're throughly on my side.

And I think that, that experience change. My parents, in their general view, they know skeptical yeah but they were um the the the the possibility the possibility of a White person genuinely being a friend of a black person that they they they that became a alive. And I give them a lot of credit because they were, they were adults, and you know, for an adult to change that a big deal. But my my parents did change .

in that transformation. I was inspiring to you, was formative to you in terms of joining .

in the optimist camp hugely. And you know the the school, I mean, again know I said a moment ago how lucky have been hack. Um I teach you, I teach IT carbid law school.

I attended David or college, oxford. I got my lot of agree from yale war school. I got my undergraduate degree at print university.

Those are some pretty good schools. They all were. They all the most important school, however that I attended.

The school that made the most difference in my education was my high school, send aubin school, same old school for boys. And at same opens, I encountered a coudray of teachers, and by the way, say, opens. When I went to say opens, all these teachers were White.

All these teachers was, there was one, the the head of athletics, very important man, very impressive man. Brooks Johnson was black otherwise. White teachers and these teachers made a huge difference in my life.

And you know, I can call their names boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. The greatest of the mall was a man by the name of um jack mccain. Yeah, we call on gentle man jack. Gentle man jack american. And what .

subjects .

taught me a history? He was my advances placement history teacher. But john f. Mccain, we shared a birthday. John f.

Macon was a fabulous ly good teacher, and we developed a deep lifetime friendship. I was with mr. mccain.

The day before he died. and. you. Know he is a White man.

And i've had other teachers who some of whom have become colleagues of mine, you know, sanford levenson. Sanford levenson was a teacher of minor princeton. He's become a colleague of mine. I mean, I would be friendly IT would be impossible for me to, you know, I here I can make some sort of, you know, sort of blanket condemning of White people with Sandy eleventh in my life. I mean, being seriously john up with my, with iphones in my life, with my colleague Martha mino in my life, my colleague casts my impossible.

you know, that speaks to the power of teachers and mentors.

Oh yeah.

I knew that a lot of people.

well, I, I, i've taken that. I hope, I hope listen, I would be, I would listen. I would be absolutely overjoyed if there was a stunt who thought of me in the way that I think of gentleman jack mckeon. If there, if if that's the case, eat just one, just one. If that's the case, i'm overjoyed.

That's that's a life well lived. What do you think of marot's kings? Um I have a dream. You still share that dream.

I think that more of the king junior, I have a dream speech is one of the great speeches not only in american history, but in the history of the world. You know there's there's a tendency now for people to sort of popo that speech. Um I think unfortunately, the speech you know has been embraced by you know you know advertisers in corporate america. It's been it's been so you it's been heard so many times that is sort of has been made to suffer from what some people might view is over exposure.

It's so unfortunate. Mean, it's too bad. Ea, hollywood roles, and they did that with the janan imagine certainly, which I think is one of the greatest songs ever. And the actors and actress is wounded by trying to like, sing long and kind of the hollywood .

thing IT has. But people have tried to make IT into a cliche. The fact of the matter is, is the the the cinema, the cinema behind?

I have a dream. Yeah, i'll associate myself with that. And anybody wants to, anybody wants to see some great oratory, go watch. And you know more of the king junior. I mean, he he gave, he 给， you know several great speeches.

You know, he's first speech, the first speech that he gave as a civil rates leader, the whole street bed, the church, nineteen fifty five, at the beginning of the montgomery bus boycott, was virtually in extemporaneous speech, one of his greatest. And he was, he was, I think, twenty six years old. great.

His last speech, you know, his mountain top speech, great speech. But I have a dream. I love IT. Um I will associate myself with those sentiments ents .

any day of the week looses still have hope for I deep kind of a multiple or a deep unity .

in the twenty I have that hope and I think that I think the experiments that Martin king junior expressed in August one nine hundred and sixty three that represents the best of american life and um I think it's a you know, do I want to see that come to pass? Yeah, I want to see that come to pass. And we will work to, you know push that project is a long as as far as little go.

Well, thank you for Carrying his spirit of optimism forward to the spirit of your mother and father. Thank you for all the amazing work you done, and thank you for just this conversation is a huge honor.

This is thank you. Thank you.

Thanks for listening to this conversation with Randall Kennedy. To support the pot gas, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me review some words from Martin luth, a king junior.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness. Only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate, only love can do that. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.