20. Logan Ury: How To Not Die Alone (The Science of Finding Love)
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Hey everyone, it's Alex from Alex and Books, and you're listening to The Reader's Journey, the podcast that takes you on a journey to meet amazing authors, discover brilliant books, and learn valuable lessons along the way. Now, let's get started. Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of The Reader's Journey podcast. Today we have Logan Urie, author of How to Not Die Alone. Logan, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. It's my pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.

So I think most people would agree that in today's world, dating has become more difficult and complex than ever before. What are some of the reasons you found that modern dating is so challenging? Yeah, this is a great question. And so some people might say, oh, dating today seems a lot easier. There's thousands of choices and you're not just limited to the people in your village or Bob and Belinda who live down the street. And so some people might feel like, oh, things have gotten easier. And that's true.

in some ways, right? It's easier to meet people and there's more people to meet. However, in the book, I argue that dating today is harder than ever before. And that's for some, some main reasons, which include, um,

We have higher than ever expectations for relationships. And so in the past, we used to say, okay, I'll get my needs met by a variety of people. I have my community. I have my family. I have my best friend. Now we expect to get a lot of those needs met by one person, met by our significant other. So that puts a lot of pressure on the relationship.

We also have very, very high expectations of what relationships should feel like. We expect to be self-actualized by our relationship, that our partner will bring out the best in us.

We also suffer from something, which I'm sure you're very familiar with, called the paradox of choice, which is the idea that we're drawn to having options, but that actually more options make us feel depressed, makes it hard for us to choose, and in some ways leads to decision paralysis where we make no decision at all because we're so overwhelmed.

And so what happens is, yes, there's way more people to choose from, but because we're putting so much pressure on relationships, because we don't have relationship role models, many of our parents are divorced because we suffer from this analysis paralysis, decision paralysis. I argue that it's actually harder than ever to find a partner and to actually know how to commit to them.

Yeah, and that's such an interesting point because you would think like with technology now and you have so much more options, so many more people to choose from, you'll find that, you know, that one person that's meant for you a lot sooner. But actually what I found, especially talking with a lot of my friends, like there's so many people out there, you don't know when like you made the right choice or it's like if the relationship isn't working out, you could always find something new. And it's kind of like this paradox of, like you said, the paradox of happiness and having too much to choose from.

Exactly. Yeah. And so if the question were, is it easier to meet someone now than in the past, then the answer would definitely be yes. And that's particularly true in what we call thin markets. So those are things like people over 50, where it's harder to know who's single, um, people in the LGBTQ plus community, people who live in rural communities, right? It's absolutely easier for all of us to find someone and, um,

But then the question becomes, okay, well, that's only step one. Step one is finding one. Step two is knowing who to choose, who to commit to, and how to make it work. And so the argument is it's now much harder to figure out that second piece. Totally. And I think – so one of my favorite chapters in your book is the one about where you talk about how like Disney and like all these fairytales that we grew up on. It's not like a –

reasonable or like rational way to look at like love and like too many people think that finding that one person is kind of like the hard part but that's not really the truth of uh dating is it

Yeah, exactly. So that's something that I call the happily ever after fallacy. And this is the idea that the hard work of love is not just finding someone. Yes, that is the hard part, but there's many more hard parts. There's making it work. There's keeping the love alive. There's understanding that relationships go through different phases. There's navigating the ups and downs. And so, yes, finding somebody is challenging, but that's not when the hard work ends.

And Alex, I'm curious, did you take the quiz in the book about your dating tendency? Yeah. So I'm a maximizer, which is kind of accurate. I'm always trying to like do the most or kind of do the best I can. So I love it. If you could kind of just like explain those three dating tendencies. Yeah. Three dating tendencies. Sure. And also, I mean, I guess it doesn't surprise me that somebody who runs a podcast about books would be a maximizer. You sit in research, you're always trying to learn and sure. So for your listeners, um,

What I did was when I was working as a dating coach, seeing people one-on-one, I noticed that my clients came from all different walks of life, but that they tended to have certain things in common and they tended to suffer from the same dating blind spots. And a dating blind spot is an attitude or a pattern of behavior that holds you back from finding love. But the important thing is you can't identify it on your own.

And so I categorize these dating blind spots into something called the three dating tendencies. And so each one of them suffers from unrealistic expectations. And so the first one is the romanticizer and they have unrealistic expectations of relationships. And this is what you're talking about with Disney. So they love, love, they believe in the soulmate. They're waiting for love to find them. And they have this very idealistic view of

how love is going to work, how their partner is going to find them, how they don't have to put effort in. And so the issue with the romanticizer is that sometimes they're not willing to put effort into finding love. They expect love to happen to them. And once they're in a relationship, they expect love to be effortless. And then when love isn't effortless, they say, this must be the wrong relationship for me, because if this were truly my soulmate, it would be easy.

The second one is the maximizer, which you said you are. This is the person who has unrealistic expectations of their partner. This is the one who says, I'm happy with my girlfriend, but could I be 5% happier with somebody else? Could I find someone who's 10% more ambitious, 10% hotter? There's always a, what else is out there? I want to turn over every leaf. I want to really explore all my options before I make a commitment.

And the issue with the maximizer is that in reality, you can't date everyone out there. Eventually, you have to have high standards, fulfill them, and then commit. But you're never going to date every possible person in the world. And the last one is the hesitator. And the hesitator has unrealistic expectations of themselves. And this is the person who says, I'll be ready to date

Dot, dot, dot. I'll be ready to date when I lose 10 pounds, when I have a more impressive job title, when I finally move and clean up my apartment. And they always feel like love is conditional and that they're just not ready to put themselves out there yet. And that one day they'll magically wake up and be ready. Right.

But the truth is that no one's ever 100% ready for anything. No one's ever 100% ready to date. And by waiting, you're missing out on the chance to get better at dating and you're missing out on the chance to figure out what kind of person you want to be with long term. Hmm.

Yeah. And that's one aspect of your book that I really enjoy. It's like not only are you learning about dating relationships, you're also learning what kind of person you are and like maybe what's holding you back or maybe what are you doing wrong like dating process. So I really enjoy like the exercises and like the quiz you have to learn about yourself. And maybe like like I mentioned, like what's what might be holding you back from finding a person that's good match for you.

Yeah, absolutely. And so continuing down this kind of trend of like what kind of what might be holding you back from dating? I really enjoy the chapter about attachment styles because I think this is a term like that's thrown a lot that's thrown around a lot. But I never really understood it until I read your book. And I think you did a great job of explaining like different attachment styles. So would you mind explaining that to listeners and how it could affect their dating life?

So attachment theory is one of the most rigorously researched elements of relationship science, which is the study of how love works, how attraction works, how dating works, et cetera. And so the idea here is that it's actually based on developmental psychology. It's based on experiments that were done decades ago, looking at how kids related to their primary caregiver, right?

But that research has carried on into our understanding of adult romantic relationships. And so there's basically three main types. There's somebody who's anxiously attached. If you're anxiously attached, then you have a fear of your partner abandoning.

And you are very focused on being in touch with your partner, texting them a bunch of times, you know, text me when you land, text me when you get to the concert. You constantly want to be in touch and you're afraid of people kind of pulling away from you.

The second type is somebody who's avoidant attached and there's a fear that you're going to be smothered by the relationship. And so you're constantly advocating for your own independence. And so these might be people who say, I need to get out of this relationship. I have to focus on work or I feel like you're all over me and I don't have any time for myself. And these are people who are constantly pulling back in the middle is somebody who's securely attached. And so these are people who are comfortable with intimacy and

but also comfortable with their independence. And so they want to be close to you, but they also need their own space. And so what happens is that securely attached people are around 50% of the population and

But unfortunately, or, you know, fortunately or not, they get snatched up into relationships and they tend to stay in them because they're good at making relationships work. So what you have is you have people who are anxiously attached dating people who are avoidant attached in something called the anxious avoidant loop. And so what ends up happening is that, um,

People reinforce each other's bad habits. The anxiously attached person says you're going to abandon me. The avoidant attached person says you're going to smother me. And they're actually doing that to each other. And so the best way to break out of this cycle is to actually, um,

either try to date a secure person and break the pattern or try to become more secure yourself. And the way that you can do that is by understanding what are my triggers? What are the things that happen to me that make me freak out and send 30 texts? What are the things that happen to me that make me say, we need to break up, I need my space. And so really when I see people make progress, it's when they identify their attachment style and then they're able to make concrete changes to

to their own dating lives to actually take control and say, I'm no longer going to participate in this unhealthy, irrational, anxious, avoided loop. And that's when they're actually to create, that's when they're actually able to create a new pattern and get into a healthy relationship.

Yeah, I just I really enjoy that aspect of like kind of self reflections, like if something's like triggering you, like, where's it coming from? How's affecting me? And it's just really fascinating to learn kind of like how you kind of acted as a child and your childhood development could kind of affect your dating process like, you know, decades later. So that was just like an interesting aspect that I don't think enough people know about or even know about themselves and how it could affect them in looking for a life partner and how they treat the relationship.

Yeah, absolutely. And I want to continue down this trend. We talked a little bit about how kind of the myths we learned from Disney and fairy tales. And you talk about the spark, which I know is like a topic you're passionate about. So can you share like a few myths around the spark and why people should look for a slow burn instead? Yes, this is one of my favorite chapters of the book. And I don't know if you curse on your podcast, so I'll just say F the spark. Okay.

But the idea here is that, you know, setting people up on dates, being a dating coach, hearing about people after they go out. I hear this story so often. I met up with this girl. She was wonderful. I really liked her. We had a great conversation. It was a good date. I'm not going to see her again. I would say, what happened? What are you talking about? And they would say, I just didn't feel the spark.

And so the idea here is that we have become obsessed with this idea of the spark, this all-encompassing word that means instant chemistry, pang of excitement, immediate unicorns and rainbows and puppies. And what I found is that way too often people are rejecting partners that could be potentially great matches long-term because they didn't feel this instant spark. And so in the book, I debunk three main myths of the spark. And the first one is that

The spark, you know, you either feel it or you don't, it can't grow over time. And that's absolutely not true. We know that plenty of couples did not experience love at first sight for a lot of people. Somebody has to grow on you. And that's why people end up marrying somebody from work, marrying somebody from their apartment building. The more you see somebody it's known as the mere exposure effect, the more that they actually grow on you. And so I really, you know, even,

For myself, I knew my now husband for eight years, even before we started dating. And sometimes you really just have to see different sides of people and have them grow on you before you realize that there's a romantic match. So yes, the spark can absolutely grow over time. The second myth is that

If you feel the spark, it's a good thing. And that's also not true. I mean, the spark can be a good thing, but oftentimes what happens is somebody is just very sparky. They're charismatic. They're hot. They give you this feeling of connection. And so you think in your head, oh, I have such a connection with this guy, but what's really happening is that guy gives that feeling of intensity and attraction to many people. And so either he's just very sparky and it

Happens to a lot of people, or he's actually making you feel anxious because you don't know how he feels about you. And therefore you're confusing the anxiety for chemistry. And the third one is that if you feel the spark, then the relationship is viable. And we also know that that's not true.

A lot of now divorced couples once had the spark because yes, the spark is exciting and it's a, it's a fun way to begin the relationship, but in no ways does it mean that this is necessarily a great longterm connection. And this is one of the big issues in a lot of TV shows and movies is people have these incredible romantic, how we met stories. And they think because of this, um,

this must be my person and I have to be with them. But no, I mean, you could have a very exciting story of meeting, but in no way does it mean that you necessarily need to be with that person. And so the antidote to this is to

Focus less on the spark, stop optimizing for that instant chemistry, and instead focus on the slow burn. And the slow burn is the person who gets better over time, the person who might not be initially charismatic, but would make a great long-term partner. And so really giving people more of a chance to,

Seeing people for their potential, going on several dates with them to let them kind of thaw out and show you who they are and really being more skeptical of the spark and looking more for the slow burn. Yeah.

and personally i think that's one of the biggest takeaways i took from the book because i always thought like oh when you first start dating someone if there's if the spark isn't already there it's not going to happen later on but now like in the current relationship i'm with uh i think both me and my girlfriend would agree that like it started out like a slow burn like the more we hung out the more we began began to like like each other and it's interesting how we kind of developed that chemistry over time slowly instead of just looking from the

for that spark in the very beginning and just hoping that lasts forever. So I think that's a very, uh, important note people should remember, uh, when they're dating someone. Absolutely.

And so you also have a wonderful chapter where you talk about how you want to look for a life partner and not a prom date, which talks about, you know, the important traits in a long term partner and kind of some of the traits we kind of overlook versus kind of some of the traits we tend to overvalue. So can you talk about some differences in what we should what we should be looking for in life partner and maybe what we kind of like some traits that aren't as important in the long term?

Yes, absolutely. And so, yeah, what I've found in talking to people about who they're looking for is that there are certain traits that people tend to really optimize for. And we know from the field of relationship science that a lot of these just are not correlated with long-term relationship success. And so some of them are things like looks, looks.

And money. And so, yes, looks matter. You want to be attracted to the person. Money matters. You know, happiness for happiness usually need to make us above a certain threshold. But what we know from the research is that people adapt to their surroundings. And so no matter how hot or how rich your partner is, you don't.

get used to your situation over time and you no longer notice it as much, which is why looks and money don't matter as much as we think they do. Another one that people overestimate is having the same personality as your partner. And so people say to me things like, I'm so extroverted. I'm the life of the party. My girlfriend's really introverted. Um, it could never work. And I'm like, no, you are so intense. You are enough. Um,

to fill a room as it is. Like you don't need your personality twin. You need somebody who compliments you. And so people really overestimate being similar to their partners in terms of personality. And a similar thing is people overestimate having shared hobbies, right? It's okay if you love wine and your girlfriend doesn't, as long as she gives you space to explore your interest in wine. And so you don't need to be the same personality and you don't need to have the same hobbies.

On the other hand, are these qualities of what matters more than people think for long-term relationship success? And these are things that certainly people know that they matter, but it's not what I hear people actively looking for when they're going on dates. And this is what people really should be valuing.

And so the first one is emotional stability. And so this is the idea that when something happens, right, when they get a disappointment at work, when their parent says something hurtful to them, how do they respond? Do they take a minute and do they think of a thoughtful way of responding or do they just react right away? And so in that, in that moment is when you can really see if somebody is emotionally stable based on how they react to triggers, right?

Another thing is loyalty. Is this the type of person who keeps friends for the long term or they just fair weather friends or they only with their friends when the good things are happening? And loyalty is really important.

Another one is a growth mindset. And so this is somebody who believes that life is something that you can improve, right? You're born with a certain set of skills, but you can actually invest in those skills. You can grow. They don't feel like, you know, you're either talented or you're not, and there's nothing you can do about it. And so this is the kind of person who feels like life is something that you can put energy into and improve and build your own path.

Another thing that matters more than people think is the ability to make hard decisions together. Because oftentimes in life, you are faced with hard choices. And this is your teammate. This is the person who's by your side, who you really need to trust to help you make the right choice and the person who you really want to go to for advice and who you want to collaborate with. And then finally, what's probably become the most important one to me is what side of you that person brings out.

And so the idea here is that whoever your partner brings out in you, that's who you'll be a majority of the time. And so if your partner's great on paper, but they make you feel insecure, they make you question yourself, they make you feel uncomfortable, they make you feel de-energized or depressed, why would you want to be with that person? And so really tuning in to the side of you that that person brings out and then making sure that you find somebody who brings out the best side of you. Yeah.

And I think you mentioned this in your book is like all these kind of like long-term traits you're looking for, like emotional stability, loyalty, like skills to fight well, bring out the best of personality. Like those things are kind of hard to discover if you're just looking at a dating app where you just have like their pictures and maybe their job occupation and, you know, where they live. So it's hard to like discover the long-term traits and kind of like a short-term like format. So is there like any...

Besides just like going on continuous dates, is there any way people could kind of identify whether someone might be a long-term partner in like a short amount of time? Yeah, I think you're bringing up a really great point, which is just to take one step back. So the framework of this chapter is look for a life partner, not a prom date. And so a prom date, if you go back to when you were going to prom, it's somebody who is hot, who would look good in pictures, who you want to dance with, maybe who you want to sleep with at the end of the night.

But you're not asking yourself, will my prom date be there with me if I, God forbid, get cancer? Or will my partner be the person I want to make decisions about? Are we going to send our kids to private school or public school? You're not thinking about those things. But at a certain age, you need to transition from looking for that fun-loving prom date to the reliable, strong, loyal life partner. And so that's really what the chapter is about. It's about telling people to make this change and also telling them what to look for. And you're absolutely right.

Things like looks are much easier to assess from a two-dimensional dating profile picture. You can just look at them and say, how symmetrical is their face? How attracted to their body am I, right? You can make an instant judgment around those things. And even things like what they do for a living and maybe how much money they make, those are things that are much easier

easier to assess things like loyalty and a growth mindset that requires a lot more effort. And so what I recommend people do is not try to figure this all out from a profile because that would be very challenging, but to get to dates with people sooner and actually ask certain questions that help you triangulate if this is true for the person. So you might say something like, uh,

What is something that you used to think was true that you no longer think is true? And that shows that somebody is thoughtful and that they're putting effort into developing their minds and their opinions. Or what's the last great book you read?

What's the last great podcast you read? Maybe ask them for advice and see, you know, do you like the way they think? Could you imagine making decisions with them? And so it requires you to be more creative in the questions, but it is something where if you know what you're looking for and you have questions that help you get at that, it is, it becomes much easier to say, is this the type of person who's emotionally stable, loyal, kind, kind?

has a growth mindset, et cetera. And then for the, what side of you they bring out, it's really about training yourself after the date to say, how do I feel? How do I feel in my body? How do I feel emotionally? And really tuning into not do they check off all the boxes on my checklist, but much more specifically, how do I feel around them?

Yeah. And so having kind of the shift from looking for a prom date to a life partner is actually kind of what led you to dating your now husband, Scott, right? Because I believe in the book you say you actually swipe left him on Tinder. And so, yeah, but you're exactly right. So basically what happened was

I had this pattern of the anxious avoidant loop, the thing that we talked about where I would find a guy, I would be interested in him. Maybe he'd be interested. Maybe he wouldn't be interested and he would pull away. And then I would get very addicted to the chase and I would get addicted to that feeling of, let me convince you to be with me. Let me show you why I'm worthy. And so I was really, really focused on love is you go after someone and they pull away and you convince them to be with you.

I ended up in such a bad anxious avoidant loop that I ended up seeing a dating coach myself. And this was an extremely useful experience because she helped me focus on how did I want my future partner to make me feel?

And what I determined was that I wanted my partner to make me feel desired, appreciated, secure, intelligent. And that wasn't at all how this prom date guy who I was chasing after was making me feel. He was making me feel nervous, insecure, unsure of what would happen. And so...

What I did with her was I realized there was already somebody in my life who made me feel the way that I wanted my future partner to feel. And that was this guy from work. And you're right. I had said no to him. I had swiped left on him on Tinder a year or two before, but I realized this guy at work who I was spending time with, he really made me feel great. And I loved the side of me that he brought out. And so over time, our friendship intensified and it

turned from a friendship to a romantic relationship. And yes, we got married last year. We've been together for six years. And I feel so grateful to have gone through that exercise of understanding. I don't want to do this pattern anymore. I don't want to chase after people who aren't interested in me. I want to choose someone who is also choosing me. Yeah. And yeah, I like how you mentioned like he's really bringing out the best of you. And so for anyone out there who's like dating right now, how do they know when to kind of like

When to continue dating the person and maybe when's like, maybe they're okay, but they're not like, you know, that great to them or like how many days should someone go on before they decide to, you know, maybe let that person go because they don't see a future with them.

Yeah, I think about this a lot in my dating coaching and a lot in the book. And so one mistake that I see people make is they write off their dates too quickly. They go on a first date with someone and they say, oh, he had a nervous laugh. He's not confident enough for me. I'm not going to see him again. Or there were awkward breaks in the conversation and that's not a good connection. And so I'm not going to go out with them again. And so

When you think about the myth of the spark, it's that we expect to have instant chemistry with somebody and we should go after the slow burn instead. So if you apply that here, you should create a rule of thumb that you always go on the second date unless something really dramatic and bad happens on the first date. And the reason for that is that if you go into the first date, knowing that you're going to go on the second date, you spend less time in that first date evaluating the person saying, are they good enough for me? Am I having a good time? And you more just say,

I'm going to let this be an experience. I'm going to be curious about this person. I'm going to see what unfolds. And I'll totally understand that maybe this person needs a few dates to really open up and have the layers of the onion to peel the layers of the onion. And so in general, I would say at least try to give somebody two dates because that will help you find the slow burn and not miss out on great potential partners who may not shine on the first date.

Yeah. And I love that, especially going on the second date rule, because I feel like that second day is like when I kind of realized my now girlfriend is like, hey, we really have like, you know, the potential here for something. And yeah, if I just didn't go on that second date, then who knows what would have happened. So I think that's a great tip for everyone that's listening. Thank you. Yeah. So is that something where it took you two dates to like her or it took her two dates to like you? I think we would both say it took us both two dates.

Oh, that's fantastic. Yeah. I think exactly what you're talking about is a lesson that I want people to have, which is that sometimes people are like, unless the first date was 10 out of 10, I don't go on a second date with them. But you and plenty of people who have, you know, messaged me since the book came out, say, I went on a first date. It was so, so I wasn't going to go on the second date. My mom said to me, come on.

on, give this woman a try, give this guy a try. And now they're married. And so a lot of great relationships started from not so great first dates. And so the lesson is really stop thinking that you are the world's best evaluator. Realize that first dates are very anxiety provoking. It's hard for people to relax and be themselves and that you're much better off

giving somebody a chance and seeing what unfolds when they get more comfortable over time. Yeah, totally. It's like two strangers, you know, meeting each other for the first time in a new situation, you know, and it could be awkward. And of course, like you can't expect the first date to be the best date ever. So it makes total sense. Go for that second date, really get to know the person. They'll be more comfortable. You'll be more comfortable and you'll probably learn a lot more about each other. So I think that's just a great tip from your book. Thank you. Yeah. And I'm glad to hear that that worked out for you and your girlfriend.

And so, Logan, you also share like there's certain things people could do to kind of increase the chances of having like a good first date and like they can make a date more fun instead of making it like a job interview. What would you recommend for people there? Yeah. So this is something that I really have seen in the last few years. And I think the pandemic in some ways has exacerbated it.

The issue is that people treat dates like job interviews, right? They sit across from each other in a sterile environment. They meet at a coffee shop or they meet on zoom and they're just exchanging information. Where do you live? How old are you? Where did you go to college? How many siblings do you have? And right. It's not about connection. It's not about really getting to know each other. It's just exchanging biographical data.

And this is not fun. This is not romantic. This is not sexy. And speaking of the spark, it's even less likely to speak to the spark to, to, to create a spark, because if you're in this really sterile environment, how are you going to feel turned on and tuned into someone? And so in the book, I have a series of suggestions of ways to design dates that are more fun. And these are all based on psych research or behavioral science research that speaks to how people connect. And so I'll just give you a few of my favorites.

One of them is the pre-date ritual. And this is the idea that the date doesn't just start when you walk into the coffee shop or start or open up the zoom. The date starts hours before when you get into the mindset. And so you really need to be in a mindset for connection, a mindset to be present, a mindset that helps you feel relaxed and open. And so what is the thing you're going to do before the date to get there? It might be taking a bath.

It might be going for a walk. It might be listening to a pump up playlist, but it's something that really changes your mood so that when you show up for that date, you're present, you're happy, you're out of work mode, and you're really there to connect with somebody.

Another one is that people are so focused on being interesting. What are my stories? How can I brag? How can I show you who I am? How can I find a way to let you know that I have my pilot's license? But what people miss, what people misunderstand is that it's so much important to be interested than interesting.

Interested is i'm a good listener. I make you feel important. I ask you follow-up questions I get to know you I help you connect the dots in your own head And what people really like is to feel heard And so if you focus more on being a good listener versus telling good stories You are more likely to get that second date because that's what people are attracted to and

Uh, two more that I can share. One is the power of ending on a high note. We know from the research and behavioral science that people disproportionately remember things based on how they end. And so even if the date is going so, so you can actually save the date by ending on a high note, which might mean, um,

Giving the person a meaningful compliment, sharing a dessert, showing them a secret spot in the neighborhood that they haven't been to before, and really creating a lasting memory by ending on a high note. And then the last thing is something that's called the post-date eight. And these are a series of questions that you ask yourself after a date that help you tune into the side of you that person brought out.

And so these are things like, did I feel curious about them? Did I feel relaxed around them? How did my body feel? And so many of us are in our heads all the time worrying about, are they good enough for me? Did I like them? You know, did they go to a good enough college, all of that stuff. And it really takes us out of the moment. And so these are questions that really help you focus on the stuff that matters. And that's how you decide if you should keep dating them.

Yeah, I really enjoyed the post-88. It's kind of like kind of value reflecting on the date process. And yeah, hopefully it's just it's not like an interview, but it's also like reflecting on how do they make you feel? What did you enjoy about them? And it's just a new way of looking at the date instead of like, oh, what are the credentials, where they're from? And some of that information that's not as important in the long term.

So, Logan, we've given a lot of advice for like a lot of single people out there, but I want to take a moment to just talk about everyone who's like listening, who's in a relationship right now. And you talk about kind of this big difference between falling in love and being in love. So what can people do to actually like stay in love and stay in the relationship?

Yeah, that is such a good point. And this is something that comes up a lot of times in my research. And so, um, for example, a guy will call me and say, I've been dating my girlfriend for three months. I really like her.

She's very kind. I respect her, but it just, it doesn't feel the same. I don't feel the same excitement I felt in the beginning. And I want to break up to go find that excitement with somebody else. And so this is a clear mistake that people make, which is they jump from three months relationship to three months relationship, always chasing that initial excitement. And what's wrong is that they're confusing falling in love, which is a very intense thing, full of horror

hormones and chemicals and oxytocin and all of these things that really just

occupy your mind and make you completely focus on the other person. And they don't understand that that's different than being in love. And being in love is not a constant state of excitement and passion. It's more like something that exists and is happening in the background, but it's not taking over your mind. And it's very, very natural, whether it's after three months or six months or two years to transition from that intense honeymoon period to something more sustainable to the next stage of relationships. And so what I say to these clients is,

This is healthy. This is natural. If you keep doing what you're doing, you're just going to always bounce from three months to three months to three months seeking that high and never finding somebody committing and building a long-term relationship. And if what you want is to have that long-term relationship,

Connection with somebody then eventually you need to understand that it's not always gonna feel as intense as it felt in the beginning And what you need to do is find somebody great commit to them and understand that being in love doesn't feel the same as falling in Love yeah, I think that's such important point. It's just for people to be aware of like that a lot higher or that Huge spark of love is not gonna last forever, but that doesn't mean you're not in love it's like a transition phase that you're going through and

And yeah, it's just like an important point that I think a lot of people don't realize like that's a normal step in the dating process. Exactly. Exactly. Right. And so so for anyone listening who's wondering, should I leave my relationship because this has faded? Then I would say no. I mean, it may not be the right relationship for you, but don't leave a relationship because it's going through a natural transition from intensity to less intense. Yeah.

And so Logan, I guess there's only like one big question left to ask about dating, which is like, how do you know when you found the one, like the person you're going to marry, the person you're going to spend the rest of your life with? Like, how did you know? Was it like a certain one moment? Was it like a serious moment that you knew, like for you that Scott was the one person you want to spend your life with?

Yeah, it's a great question. So what I would say is, first of all, I don't really believe in the concept of the one. I think there's a lot of people out there that each of us could be with. And hopefully your listeners find this empowering because instead of saying there's billions of people in the world and how could I meet them all? And how can I find the perfect person for me and which one's my soulmate? And if this were my soulmate be easier instead, you can think relationships are built. They're not discovered. And so what you really need to do is find somebody great.

Put effort in and create the relationship you want. Don't focus on, oh, it's 99% who I'm with and 1% making it work. No, no, not at all. A huge percentage of successful relationships is the effort you put in to make it great. And so that's one part of it. Another thing I would say is really what we talked about before, which is what side of you do they bring out?

So often people get focused on the resume qualities. Oh, I want someone with this job and this height and this income and this religion and this race. Well, what if you've dated a bunch of people like that and they haven't made you feel good? Maybe it's actually time to question your type, go after a different type of person and realize that you may be wrong about what makes you happy long term. And so what I would say is, you know, some of the early stuff is pay attention to what side of you they bring out.

Pay attention to the fact that do they make you feel secure? Do they make you feel anxious? Do they make you feel avoidant? Do they help you break bad patterns? Do they reinforce your bad patterns? And then finally, as you get closer to really committing, there are a bunch of questions you can ask each other. And I have a chapter in my book about, you know, before you tie the knot, do this. And that's really about, are you heading in the same direction? Do you want the same things out of life? Do you have the same views on life?

having kids, where you're going to live, money, if you're both going to work, how you're going to manage your resources, how you're going to interact with your friends and family. And so often people

don't have those hard conversations before they get married because they say, well, I love you. We must be on the same page. And this is just not true. So really people should be having hard conversations before they get married to confirm that they are on the same page now and on the same page about where they're heading. Hmm.

I appreciate all the questions you include in your book. It makes it more interactive, but also something people could apply to their life or their relationship. Be like, hey, I feel like we're ready to take the next step. Let me ask my partner these questions because it has to be not just an emotional decision, but a logical one as well. I really enjoy that aspect of your book.

Thank you. Yeah. I mean, look, love is amazing. Love is one of the most beautiful feelings of connection in the world. But when it comes to choosing your partner for a long-term relationship, somebody who is essentially your teammate for maybe the next 50 years, you want to have both the head and the heart. You want to choose someone who you love being around, but also someone who you feel like you can grow with over the next few decades. Right.

And so, so Logan, we're getting close to time here. Uh, so I want to ask my closing question, which I asked all my guests, which are, uh, because this is a book podcast, what are one or two books that had a huge impact on your life and how did those books change you as a person? Oh, that's a great question. Um, uh,

The book that comes to mind is the book Predictably Irrational by Dan Ariely. Are you familiar with it? Yeah. Yeah. So Dan Ariely is one of my mentors. I had the ability to learn behavioral science from him when we ran a team together at Google. And I just love the way that Dan sees the world. First of all, he's extremely curious. He's always wondering, why do people say that they want to save money, but then they're

Not save for retirement or why do people say they want to lose weight and then fill up their plate at the buffet as if they'll never eat again. And so he's really just so obsessed with human behavior, irrationality, and then he has such clever experiments to explore it. And so working with Dan is really the inspiration for my book.

because I've taken a lot of the ways that he thinks and approaches the world and I've applied them to dating. And so it was really reading that book and having the opportunity to learn directly from Dan that I was able to come up with my philosophy for love, which is that

Right. Yeah.

Yeah, and I love Dan's book and his TED Talks are great too. So thank you for recommending that to listeners. And so Logan, I know everyone listening, if they want to connect with you or learn more about you and your work, where's the best place for them to go? Yeah, so the first thing is if people were interested in what we talked about today, they can check out my book, How to Not Die Alone. If they liked the sound of my voice, they can get the audio book, which I read. If they didn't, get the hardcover or the Kindle.

If people are interested in the three dating tendencies, they can go to my website, loganyuri.com slash quiz, and they can figure out their dating tendency. And people can also follow me on Instagram and Twitter at Logan Yuri.

Yeah. And for everyone listening, I highly recommend this book. Not only will you learn about the dating and relationship process, you'll also learn about yourself and you'll enjoy all the activities and the quizzes and the exercises in it. And Logan, I just want to thank you so much for coming on the Reader Journey podcast today to talk about your book. Yay. It was my pleasure. Thanks for asking great questions. And I'm so glad you enjoyed the book.

Hey, everyone. I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Reader's Journey. You can learn more about what's covered in today's podcast in the show notes below.

If you enjoyed this podcast, the best way you can support it is by subscribing and leaving a positive review. If you're looking for reading tips or book recommendations, head over to alexandbooks.com. If you want to join my reading journey, you can follow me on Instagram and Twitter by searching for Alex and Books. That's all for now. Thank you so much for listening, and I hope to see you soon. Read on, everyone.