How to get the medical care you deserve (with Leana Wen, M.D.)
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Welcome to How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. On today's episode, we're going to be talking about the healthcare system. And even in the best of times, the healthcare system can be overwhelming and intense to try and navigate. And we so rarely are interacting with it in the best of times. Most of the time, we're there because we're scared and hurt or not quite sure what's wrong with us, or if not with us, with our loved ones.

Personally, over the past two years, my wife, Molly, has been dealing with some difficult chronic health issues. And as I've tried to help Molly navigate the system, it's been really scary. I wish that we were getting definitive answers, but instead we've gotten a bunch of conflicting advice and no doctor has ever said to us, I don't know. I just don't have an answer.

This whole ongoing experience, it's made me much, much more aware of how important patient advocacy is.

whether that's advocating for yourself or for a person that you care about. And while navigating the healthcare system is very much of the moment because of the pandemic, there are also pervasive issues that have been around for far longer than COVID. So today on the show, Dr. Lina Nguyen, a physician and a leader who's been working on these issues for years, she's going to try and help us figure out how we can be better patients and how we can, when we do need to use the healthcare system, make sure that we are getting the best care possible right after this.

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Hello, hello. I'm Malik. I'm Jamie. And this is World Gone Wrong, where we discuss the unprecedented times we're living through. Can your manager still schedule you for night shifts after that werewolf bit you? My ex-boyfriend was replaced by an alien body snatcher, but I think I like him better now. Who is this dude showing up in everyone's old pictures? My friend says the sewer alligators are reading maps now. When did the kudzu start making that humming sound?

We are just your normal millennial roommates processing our feelings about a chaotic world in front of some microphones. World Gone Wrong, a new fiction podcast from Audacious Machine Creative, creators of Unwell, a Midwestern Gothic Mystery. Learn more at audaciousmachinecreative.com. Find World Gone Wrong in all the regular places you find podcasts. I love you so much.

I mean, you could like up the energy a little bit. You could up the energy. I actually don't take notes. That was good. I'm just kidding. You sounded great. So did you. And we're back. Let's get into the interview. I'm Dr. Lena Nguyen. I'm an emergency physician and the author of a book called When Doctors Don't Listen that's about patient advocacy. Why is self-advocacy on the part of patients important?

So I first started to become aware of this because of a personal and very deeply painful experience. When I was a second year medical student, my mother was misdiagnosed and then finally diagnosed after a year with metastatic breast cancer with symptoms that she had had for quite some time, but she just felt like her doctors were not listening to her.

And I was her caregiver as I was going through my medical training in medical school. And then she ended up passing away when I was a second year resident. And so her illness entirely coincided with my medical training. And I saw in this process about the disconnect that we see in our medical system, that doctors, nurses, healthcare administrators are trying to do the right thing.

But for whatever reason, there are so many systemic barriers in the way. Doctors, for example, are really limited when it comes to time. There's all this focus on testing and on these bureaucratic things that have to take place in medical care. The system really is broken. But while...

We try to fix that system. If patients are in need of care right now, we need to help people to speak up and get the care that they need, because this is literally a life and death issue. You know, reading your book, first of all, it's so well written and it's just very accessible as well as very practical. When Doctors Don't Listen, that's the title. And one thing that really struck me about the first couple of chapters as you're setting the stage for the whole issue is that

Kind of on both sides, there's this problem of not seeing the humanity, right? So like doctors have this tendency because they don't want to make a mistake to instead of seeing the whole human of their patient, they just start seeing like chest pain. And here are the questions I ask at chest pain. And that is all there is to it. And on the patient side, there's this tendency to think that this doctor is not a human being. They are a flawless person.

perfect medical robot who cannot make mistakes.

And it seems like that is where a lot of the issues arise is from both sides, not really seeing the person behind the conditions. I agree with you. I would point to a system problem that's leading to that type of perception. And that system problem specifically is the lack of time that doctors have with patients. And then patients are ushered through the system where they don't feel like their doctor has really listened to them and understood them.

So they don't feel that connection. They don't then have the trust in what the recommendations are that the doctor is giving. And by the way, I say doctor, but it could be the same for nurse practitioner, physician assistant, for nurse, physical therapist. And at the same time, the physician...

is also feeling extremely rushed. The doctor may be thinking, I need to really understand what's going on here because I've got six other patients who need to see me right now. And so I need to figure out what is the cause of this chest pain without thinking about the context of that person's life. And maybe they're having abdominal pain because of a mental health issue. Maybe they're having abdominal pain because they're hungry. I mean, maybe there are other issues that are contributing to this patient's illness, but there just isn't the time to really delve into it. So I think it's

It's not the lack of desire on people's part. I think that doctors want to see their patients as human beings. I think patients want to have that relationship with their doctor. But it's the system that is preventing us from doing what we really need to do, which is to develop and foster that human connection. So what as an individual, right? What can we do then to make that process better? Because

For a lot of people, it's not a situation that we're in very often. And when we are, it's stressful and high stakes, and it can be hard to think like you have agency. So what can a person do as a patient to be better prepared and make things work better? Yeah, it's a great question, and I think it depends on the setting that people are in. So let me separate this between a routine medical visit that one has some time to prepare for and something that's more urgent.

A lot of medical visits, I would say the majority, the vast majority of medical visits are things that you have some time to prepare for. The real emergency is you were in a car accident or you suddenly got very ill and you need to seek emergency care. That's relatively rare. Even if you have a condition that develops over time, maybe you called your doctor and have an appointment for two days time, you still have some time to think through it and prepare for it. So I think that's just a different circumstance that if it's

a true emergency. For those true emergencies, you should try to have things prepared in advance. So always have a list with you of your medical conditions, how long you've had them, how they're being treated, have a list of your medications that you're taking, the exact dosages.

because at the time that you're going to the ER, you don't want to be bringing a bag of medications, some of which are really old. And then you definitely don't want to be saying, well, I take the blue pill twice a day. People are not going to know what that means. And that leaves confusion in your care. So have a list, know your allergies, write down all the names of your doctors that you see and why you see them, their phone numbers for easy contact. Have also a list of the people that you would want to

contacted as in, do you want to have your spouse? Do you want to have your children to be contacted? Who's your healthcare proxy? So that type of information is really helpful for emergencies and have that prepared in advance of you going somewhere. And you just have that like in your wallet at all times or something?

I think you should have it in multiple places. You should have it in your wallet because if you do end up in an emergency situation, let's say that you were in a car accident, the paramedics who are going to pick you up will look through your wallet to find that. You should also take a picture of it, have it on your phone. Most people will be carrying their iPhone or something else like that with them. And also give this to your healthcare proxy, but in case that person isn't easy to find, it never hurts to give that list to several people.

So that if the doctor ends up calling your spouse or ends up calling your children or your parents, that they have that list with them as well. Okay, so that's the emergency one, right? That's the emergency one, exactly. And I think that that's the one that there's, you can prepare to some extent, but you can't really prepare for that emergency.

I think that most of the time, though, when you are going to your physician's office, it's not quite for that emergency. It may be for something urgent. Maybe you're now suddenly not or you're not feeling well, but it's still just have a few hours to prepare for the doctor's visit. Or maybe you have a new diagnosis and you're being referred to a new doctor. You have time to prepare for that visit.

What I would recommend in addition to having that list that you would have for emergencies anyway, specifically write down and rehearse the history of why you're not feeling well this time. And so the more that you can get down your history and make that into a story,

That's what will help the doctor with getting to your diagnosis. And so I don't mean that you should be writing a 20-page paper on this, but think through-- - No, it's not like a memoir that you come in with, like, "Here's my unpublished memoir that I've written about this." - Right, exactly. But in writing down your story, that's how you can also get to the main point of your story, knowing that the doctor has limited time. So think about how would you tell somebody a story? A story has a beginning, a middle, and an end, so proceed in chronology.

Also, a story has context. It doesn't help so much for the doctor if you come in and you say, I have chest pain, period. Or even I have an eight out of 10 chest pain. Well, what does eight out of 10 really mean? But what if you said, I've never had chest pain before. And then yesterday when I was working out and lifting weights, I suddenly felt this tearing pain in my chest and that has not gone away.

That's very different than if somebody says, "I have had chest pain on and off for years, and it always tends to occur when I'm exercising. But as of today, this morning, even when I'm not doing anything, I was eating breakfast and I started having chest pain. That really worried me." That context, the history, why it's suddenly concerning.

what you were doing when this happened, why it is that this is worrying you all of a sudden, all that information, that's the kind of information that your doctor needs. And I would recommend for people to write it down in advance, rehearse it, talk through the story with people that you know who are not doctors, because you want your story to be understandable to people. I would recommend that in advance of going to see any physician.

First of all, that's so practical and makes so much sense. And it also seems to me like it avoids one of the most common problems that happens to me, at least, which is that I will make an appointment for something that is bothering me. And then somehow the one hour of the day that it's not bothering me is the hour that I'm in the doctor's office. You know, it's like.

It's like when I take my car to the mechanic and I go, it was squeaking on the way here and it will squeak afterwards, but I can't make it squeak for you now. So you somehow can't figure out what's wrong with the car. I feel like if you have the story rather than just relying on the doctor to see it in the moment, that probably gives them a lot more ability to understand the context and what's actually happening.

That's right. And I think too, that so many times when you go see the doctor, and again, this is a systems problem. I want to emphasize doctors don't like this either, but maybe the doctor's rushing. And if you look okay, and then you're saying right now, exactly as you were saying, Chris, I don't feel anything right now that the doctor might, might be thinking, well, I'm, I'm,

this is all urgent, I need to be moving on to my next patient versus if you wrote down and it may well be, maybe you're going to see the doctor now and you don't have chest pain anymore. But what if you said to the doctor, because you had written this down, I've been having chest pain every time I've been going running.

And now it's to the point that I can barely walk a block before I'm having this pain. That will definitely get your doctor's attention. And writing that down also helps to contextualize it in the context of your life and why it's worrisome to you. I think so often too, this is not to say that people should not be doing this, but so often people come with a list of questions for their doctor. That's really good. And I want people to be doing that. But know too that the answers are with you.

The doctor is not going to have any answers for you unless they understand what's going on with you. And so you need to help them first by coming with your story. Write down your questions too. You should definitely get those answered. But actually the key to preparation is understanding yourself because you are the expert when it comes to your story and your body. Nobody else has that information but you. You know, obviously this is one of your main ideas and one of the big things that you've been

so key in spreading in the world, not just through your book, but also through your talks is this idea that doctors don't always listen and that that's actually really crucial that they do listen and that you make sure that they hear you. So what can you do when you're in this situation where you don't know the answer and you're scared or you're hurting or you feel ill? Um,

And you feel like your doctor isn't listening. What power do you have there? So I think there are several things that you could do in that circumstance. One is you can make your point more clearly. And I know, again, I am, by the way, not in any of this trying to blame the patient.

In any way, and having been through this with my mother, I know how frightening it is when you're feeling ill. Also, you may perceive there to be a power dynamic. The doctor may seem really busy. You don't want to trouble the doctor. Also, especially for older individuals, people from certain cultures, there may be the sense that it's kind of like Elaine in Seinfeld. People are afraid to trouble their doctor.

and somehow get worse care because of it. So I understand that there are a lot of reasons why people don't want to speak up. And so I don't mean to say that this is right.

that there's something wrong with our system that we're putting the onus on our patients in this way. So let's get that out there at the same time. I also have a strong belief that you have to do what you can, even while we're trying to get the system to change and saying the system is not right, but we need to take it upon ourselves to do everything we can as well. And so I think you can try to get your doctor to listen to you in the following ways.

You could say to them, again, I would advise doing this gently, not to call your doctor out and say, you're not listening. This is a big problem. I'm going to sue you. It's probably not a good way of getting people to really start that partnership. Know that your doctor's probably well-intentioned, but there may be something else going on. Maybe there's another patient who's really urgent. Maybe they're not understanding what you mean. And so maybe you can say to them, I want to really explain to you how this illness has affected my life.

Yes, I've had, let's say, migraines for years. This is different.

I think that this is different will really get their attention. Because especially if you're somebody with a chronic illness and you've had something for a while, and you are now having a worse sign of this, maybe they don't quite understand that this is not your usual migraine. You could say that. I've had migraines for 10 years, but there's something different about it this time. I can't concentrate. I can't go to work. I can't take

take care of my kids. I'm in bed all the time. I mean, whatever that is that illustrates how this is different and the impact on your life, that is really important to convey. If there's a change, if now you cannot do your normal daily activities, that's really important. I think you could also emphasize

that, especially in the case that in the example that you gave, Chris, that you've tried these things before and they're not working and you're really concerned. I think that's also important to say, no, I don't mean any disrespect here, but I've tried all these therapies. That's not it. I believe there is something else going on. You may not know what that something is yet as a patient, but you can say, I believe there's something else going on.

Another thing that may help in this circumstance is in many cases, the doctor is trying to think of what they're trying to rule out. So they're doing studies in order to say, "Look, I want to make sure this is not your thyroid. This is not anemia. This is not these things." But then the question that you should ask your doctor is, "What do you think that this is?" Now that we're ruling out all these things, what is it at the end of the day?

We may not know, but what is the one most likely thing? What are the three most likely things? And helping them to sharpen that focus on what this is also puts the focus back on you and what can help you get out of this as well. And one more thing that I would recommend as a tip for how you can refocus that doctor's attention if you feel like they're not listening to you is sometimes it helps to have, actually, not just sometimes, but it always helps to have someone with you.

In the time of coronavirus, it may not be possible to have someone physically with you or just in general, maybe the person you want to have with you lives in a different place and they can't be with you for some reason. But have that person on the phone because sometimes it helps even if you don't want to be asking the question, it helps to have, for lack of better words, the bad cop. Maybe you don't want to be the one doing the advocacy, but maybe somebody else could be saying, that doesn't sound right. There's something else going on with my mom. Or that's not how my sister usually sounds.

There's something going on. She never complains. There's something going on with her. And having that other person be the additional voice may also help to get that doctor's attention, too. Yeah. You know, I'm curious to talk a little bit more about that because I know that I'm sure for many people who are listening, you know, there's situations where you have a loved one and you want to figure out how you can help them navigate the health care system.

For me, just a small personal thing. And I am only giving my personal experiences because I feel like sometimes it helps to have like a specific little moment. But yeah.

One thing that really, I think, worked for me in trying to support my wife was to go into some appointments with her and to say like, hey, I know her really well. She has an extremely high pain tolerance. She never complains about pain. And she is now like the pain in her feet has become to the point that she can't walk without it being excruciating. That is really not normal for her. She's not like a person who complains about this kind of stuff. And I felt like sometimes the doctors heard it from me.

Even though she was saying the exact same thing, I felt like they heard it from me more. And maybe that's because of, you know, the levels of privilege that I have of being a man, being white, being all these things. But also it could I think it also is just hearing from someone else being like, this is out of the ordinary. And also, you don't know this person, but I know them. And this isn't the kind of thing they often complain about. That's exactly right. I mean, I think everything you stated, those are exactly the reasons why it helps to have somebody else

with you. And again, I want to emphasize the point that you made about privilege, because I think it is important for us to acknowledge that parts of what we're saying, it's about how to survive in an imperfect system. It should not be that if you are white and male and of a certain class background that you're taken more seriously by your doctor than somebody who is not. I mean, that's obviously not right at all.

But we do know that there are barriers that are faced because of implicit bias, because of language barriers, because of culture barrier, whatever that may be, those barriers are there. And that's actually one reason why if you are being referred to a specialist,

It also helps to have your primary care doctor explain to that specialist by the way of a note or a phone call about why they're being referred, because you can imagine that a doctor may also listen to another doctor, just not necessarily more seriously, but with a different level of attention.

If it's a doctor that they know and this doctor is saying, hey, something isn't right about this person. I think it's pretty urgent. Here's what I'm concerned about. It gets their attention in a different way. And so I think that when it's you as the patient trying to find all those different ways of advocacy for yourself are important.

So having a loved one vouch for how your pain is different or how they look different. Great. If it's somebody who may seem to come from a position of greater privilege who can vouch for you by maybe it's your doctor who has a level of privilege in a different way. I think you should take advantage of all these additional venues because at the end of the day, this also is about your health and your life. We'll have more from Dr. Wen right after this.

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I want to tell you about a new podcast from NPR called Wild Card. You know, I am generally not the biggest fan of celebrity interview shows because they kind of feel packaged, like they've already told these stories a bunch of times before. But Wild Card is totally different because the conversation is decided by the celebrity picking a random card from a deck of conversation starters. And since even the host, Rachel Martin, doesn't know what they're going to

pick, the conversations feel alive and exciting and dangerous in a way because they're vulnerable and unpredictable. And it is so much more interesting than these stock answers that the celebrities tend to give on other shows. You get to hear things like Jack Antonov describe why boredom works or Jenny Slate on salad dressing or Issa Rae on the secret to creativity.

It is a beautiful, interesting show, and I love it. Wild Card comes out every Thursday from NPR. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. And we are back. Before we get back into the questions, let's hear a clip from Dr. Wen's talk at TEDx Baltimore in 2016. This is specifically how she got interested in these issues in the first place. We see that the currency of inequality is years of life. These problems for me are personal.

I didn't grow up in Baltimore, but I watched inequality scar my neighborhood in inner-city Los Angeles. My parents and I were poor immigrants. We lived paycheck to paycheck and always worried about whether we could make rent that month. I watched inequality leave its mark on every single person that I knew, from my classmates, who became the victims of gun violence,

to our families who suffered from drug addiction, to our neighbors who died because of diseases of poverty. This is what I saw, and these experiences are why I went into medicine and why I became an ER doctor, because I never wanted to be the doctor who ever turned a patient away. But it's also in the ER that I saw how much we're practicing sick care, not health care. If the currency of inequality is years of life,

that the opposite of poverty is health. So zooming out for a second, we've been talking a lot about the individual. And one thing I really appreciate about you is that you keep pushing it back towards the system. So what can we do as humans who are outside of the health care system, but recognizing that there are these same systemic issues around race and gender and class and sexuality and all of these things? How can we

advocate for reform within these systems and make healthcare a more equitable place? I think it's a great question, and I hope that it's something that we're all committed to in different ways. I strongly believe in using your own personal story in this regard. The old aphorism that data provide context, but stories compel action, I think is really important. I think what drives change at the end of the day is our individual stories.

people should think for themselves about what kind of change that they want and at what level. Because a lot of times we may be thinking about change as legislative change or some kind of national policy change,

But there's a lot that could be done on the local level or even at the level of your health care system. There are a lot of hospitals that have committees that have patient representatives and family representatives on them that help to make care in that setting better for other patients. And I think that's a setting that would be excellent.

At the end of the day, people experience healthcare locally. And so improving healthcare where you are for other patients, I think is something that would be really meaningful.

there are opportunities for advocacy as well at all levels, at the state level, at the federal level, with your insurer. And I think that using your personal experience and advocating for what you really believe in is important. So I think that there are, again, many opportunities, but that depends on your goal, your bandwidth. And I just would not, I don't want people to make the perfect the enemy of the good.

So yes, there is long-term systemic change that needs to happen, but there's a lot that we can potentially do in the meantime too. I think that that is so important and makes so much sense. In the meantime, what do you think is the single most important thing? And obviously there's many things that we should be doing, but what's the single most important thing that if you're listening and you're a doctor, you should be doing? As in...

If you are a health care professional yourself and you're listening and you're like, I'm totally bought in. I hear everything Dr. Nguyen is saying and I want to do it. What would you say is like their number one step one? You should be doing this. I would encourage all physicians to tap into why it is that they went into medicine in the first place. And we went into medicine to be healers.

But so much, again, of the system that is preventing us from having the time to listen and connect with our patients, that's the problem. So if we can just be a little bit more intentional when we come and see our patients, instead of saying, I hear that you're here for your chest pain. Instead, what if we start the conversation with, how can I help you today? What's going on?

and then really intentionally listen in that initial conversation would make a really big difference for fostering trust and actually for getting to the diagnosis much faster. You know, a lot of the value of a story and of connection and of listening, those are all things that I completely buy into. There are also things that are way easier to do in person.

sense in this time with the pandemic, but also just with distance and with all sorts of new technologies. A lot of people are having remote visits where they're either, you know, seeing people through a video visit or they're talking on the phone. Do you have any tips for people who are trying to connect with their doctor in that way to still get these same results and still have that same connection? So that's a really interesting question, Chris. And I have...

anecdotal experience only to share. I don't have specific data on this point, but I'll tell you anecdotally as someone who also practices telemedicine, I have much better conversations, more in-depth conversations with my patients via telemedicine than I do in person. And I think it's because I have more time during telemedicine visits. If I'm doing telemedicine visits, I'm

I'm also not seeing 10 other people who are banging down my door at the same time. And I actually think that I can have much more focus on my patients during these telemedicine visits. And so, I mean, I'm not, again, this is an N equals one experience. I haven't really talked about this with other people in this way. So I'm not sure that I can say that in general, telemedicine is somehow better for listening to the story. But I think that if you...

If people are specifically giving time to listening,

that's an opportunity to really emphasize the story. Because if you're in person, there are so many other sensory inputs that are there too. And in addition to listening to the patient, I'm also trying to, I may also be looking at them and the smell and the inputs of how they seem. And when I'm listening to their, if it's only a telemedicine telephone visit, all I have is their story and their voice.

And so I actually think that there is an even greater opportunity to convey your story that way. So we don't always have the option to do this, but in the situations where we do, how do you choose a person who you trust and how do you choose a medical practitioner? What do you look for? Hmm.

When you ask people through surveys about how they are connected to a physician or physical therapist or chiropractor or really anybody else, a lot of it is through word of mouth. And that's because of that issue of trust, because we trust someone, whether it's our existing doctor to make a specialist referral or we're trusting our friends specifically.

thinking that if our friends really like this person and we have similar values, then we must like them too. And so I think getting referrals and having that prior trust is really great. I would also advise people to try to get to know your provider before an urgent issue comes up because you also develop trust over the course of time. What drew you to medicine originally?

I am one of those annoying people who has known for as long as I can remember that I wanted to be a doctor. I mean, I used to interview medical students or pre-med students from medical school, and I hated this answer when people said, I've always known that I wanted to be a doctor because it sounds really trite. But I think for a lot of people, including me, it's true. I had severe asthma as a child, and I grew up with it.

receiving medical care and knowing that I always saw the doctor as someone who helped me feel better because when you have asthma and can't breathe, that's a really terrifying feeling. And I always associated going to the doctor as someone helped me feel better and relieved that really scary sensation of not being able to catch your breath and not knowing whether you're going to have a next one.

And then my parents and I immigrated to the U.S. I grew up in circumstances where we often didn't have access to medical care. And there were a lot of people around me who didn't have access to medical care. So seeing what it's like to go without.

also made me acutely aware of how healthcare is a privilege, unfortunately, in our world that not everyone has access to. And I wanted to be a physician, and specifically, I wanted to be an ER physician because I never wanted to be in a situation where I had to turn someone away because of inability to pay, because of their immigration status, because of who they happen to be, because of what insurance they happen to have or not. And so that...

ethos of really understanding health care as a right that everyone has access to. That is very much a part of who I am and what I've worked for my entire career. Well, we have some kind of traditional end questions that we ask here. What's one way in which you are trying to be a better human? Well, I think about this a lot because I am the mom of two. I have a three-year-old and a nine-month-old baby.

And I think a lot about how I want to be better for them.

that I want to create a better world for them, but I also want to be a better mom to them. And so I read a lot of parenting books in this regard. I read articles about being a better parent. I work very consciously on trying to be more present because I think I'm sure like many other people get very distracted. I get distracted by the news. I get distracted by my phone beeping and I'm working on

trying to be more present for my kids and for my husband and for my friends and just be more present in the moment with them. And I would just say the last thing too is,

I talk so much about well-being, well-being for others and the importance of health for others. And I'm actively working on that for myself too, being attentive to my mental well-being, but also specifically physical well-being and being very attentive to, as an example, getting in at least my 10,000 steps every day, exercising, doing aerobic exercise at least five days a week, doing something that is for my own physical and mental well-being too.

Well, Dr. Wen, thank you so much for speaking with us. I cannot thank you enough. And thank you for all the work that you do. Thank you. It's a pleasure to join you in this conversation. Thank you for the work that you're doing to make us all better humans.

That is our show for today. Thank you to our guest, Dr. Lina Nguyen, and thank you for listening. I am your host, Chris Duffy. This show is produced by Abimanyu Das, Daniela Bolarezo, Frederica Elizabeth Yosefov, and Karen Newman at TED, and Jocelyn Gonzalez and Sandra Lopez-Monsalve from PRX Productions. We'll be back next week.

Support for the show comes from Brooks Running. I'm so excited because I have been a runner, gosh, my entire adult life. And for as long as I can remember, I have run with Brooks Running shoes. Now I'm running with a pair of Ghost 16s from Brooks.

incredibly lightweight shoes that have really soft cushioning. It feels just right when I'm hitting my running trail that's just out behind my house. You now can take your daily run in the Better Than Ever Go 16. You can visit brookscrunning.com to learn more. PR.