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You're listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. Today on the show, we are talking about civility and incivility, how you treat other people and how you get treated. It is a conversation about behavior that takes place everywhere from boardrooms to kindergarten classrooms. And it's one that, to be honest, the kindergartners are kind of better at, I think.
Kindergarteners, they know the rules, right? Don't be mean, share, clean up after yourself. And those are rules that a lot of us as adults, we kind of need a refresher on. So on today's episode, I am grabbing my snacks. I am waking up from my nap and I'm having a conversation with Christine Porath, a professor who writes about incivility at work. Here's a clip from Christine's TEDx talk. - Who do you wanna be? It's a simple question.
And whether you know it or not, you're answering it every day through your actions. This one question will define your professional success more than any other. Because how you show up and treat people means everything. Either you lift people up by respecting them, making them feel valued, appreciated, and heard. Or you hold people down by making them feel small,
insulted, disregarded or excluded. And who you choose to be means everything. I study the effects of incivility on people. What is incivility? It's disrespect or rudeness. It includes a lot of different behaviors, from mocking or belittling someone, to teasing people in ways that sting, to telling offensive jokes, to texting in meetings. Incivility is a bug.
It's contagious. And we become carriers of it just by being around it. And this isn't confined to the workplace. We can catch this virus anywhere, at home, online, in schools, and in our communities. It affects our emotions, our motivation, our performance, and how we treat others. It even affects our attention and can take some of our brain power.
And this happens not only if we experience incivility or we witness it. It can happen even if we just see or read rude words. So where do you start? How can you lift people up and make people feel respected? Well, the nice thing is it doesn't require a huge shift. Small things can make a big difference. Civility lifts people. We'll get people to give more and function at their best if we're civil.
Incivility chips away at people and their performance. It robs people of their potential, even if they're just working around it. What I know from my research is that when we have more civil environments, we're more productive, creative, helpful, happy, and healthy. We're going to be back with more from Christine in just a minute. But first, a quick ad.
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I mean, you could like up the energy a little bit. You could up the energy. I actually don't take notes. That was good. I'm just kidding. You sounded great. So did you. And we're back. We're talking with Christine Porath about civility and incivility at work. Hi, I'm Christine Porath. I'm the author of Mastering Civility and a new book called Mastering Community, How We Move from Surviving to Thriving Together.
And I teach in the management business school at Georgetown University. So, OK, so you work in an environment where I think a lot of times people are very focused on like hard numbers, cash. Right. How do we maximize profits? So what do you do when people do react to you with that kind of skepticism when you say, how do you make the case for that to people who are coming at it from a skeptical angle?
Yeah, well, I think I was really lucky. I mean, one thing, my undergrad was in economics. And so I think I came at it from the perspective of like, I could make a moral argument, you know. However, I think it's much more to show them the money kind of thing, you know, the Jerry Maguire line about that. And so I think as much as possible, I root back to that and say, like, how do I convince managers that this matters? You know, especially because I started this work a couple decades ago when it just wasn't really talked about.
And so it's something that I try to pull back on, especially if I'm dealing with that audience. I'm in front of MBAs or executives. It's like, here's how it hits the bottom line. And so one of the nice things, a mentor of mine, Christine Pearson, who I did a lot of the original research with,
And again, this was business school alumni. So it was across industries. But we had over 12% of people say, you know, based on this one incident where they felt treated rudely or just respectfully or just insensitively. So most of the time they didn't report this, but 12% of them left their job because of this. And so, you know, the kind of the kicker for all of this is you're going to lose great people. And we know from subsequent research, it's like the talented are 13 times more likely to leave.
So you're going to lose the best and the brightest. And turnover is so incredibly costly to replace. And so I think it becomes easier for a manager to get it if they say, OK, I'm not getting performance. I'm not getting creativity. People are three times less likely to be helpful, even if they just witness this. And turnover, the best and the brightest are going to leave. OK, well, maybe I should start paying attention to this. You know, maybe we should have some norms around this.
Yeah, it's fascinating because it's, you know, it's a question that I think for many of the people who don't need to learn the lesson. Right. It's like, of course, we should be respectful. And for the people who do, it's hard to imagine how you convince them. And I think one thing that I find really compelling about you is that you've not just taken that challenge seriously, but you've actually found ways to look at it in a new way and figure out how to convince people that they actually should treat people better. So just a question of terms before we get into that, though.
The opposite of a rude workplace or a rude situation, you would say, is a civil situation? Yeah. So really, I think the best word for that is respect, you know? And so for me, that just means in my world, it's more than neutral. So like you can think of it on a continuum. And part of the really messy part about this is it's all in the eyes of the beholder. So admittedly, this is all subjective. So like it varies based on did they work in a place that was like really toxic or
or was super civil, you know, super respectful. And so that I think all colors what throws you off or what, you know, how you treat others. And so admittedly, what I study is super subjective, but the bottom line is it does matter. So, you know, that's my comeback. Yeah. So what should people do if they're listening to this and they're working in a situation where they're working with a really uncivil boss, someone who is rude and disrespectful?
Yeah, well, I think, you know, one thing is to recognize the toll that it might be taking on them, because I think that that's important that we take care of ourselves in the meantime. You know, ideally, you're getting the word to someone that can help change the situation. So much of that is because, as you mentioned, it comes from the top down, like it's often someone with more power or more status or they can get away with it.
And so I think people are afraid and they feel a sense of hopelessness about speaking up, but that becomes part of the pattern. And so there are ways to get at that, you know, but ideally you're telling someone, you know, a mentor, an HR person, an ombudsman, someone that can help you navigate the situation.
so that there is some feedback or some recourse. Because I think one of my greatest learnings has actually been that I don't think most of the... I started out thinking this is really a bunch of jerks at work and we need to correct their behavior and that kind of thing. And where I've landed is it's not necessarily that we're trying to be mean to people or be a jerk at work or any of that. It's more a lack of self-awareness.
So when people find out, you know, the effect that they're having on someone, they have no idea. You know, they're dumbfounded by this. And so, you know, I really think so much of this comes down to getting, you know, feedback about, you know, and kind of honing our self-awareness so that we can tweak certain behaviors. Because a lot of these things are not huge shifts.
I mean, yes, there are extremes and in movies and in different scenes, we can all picture someone screaming in someone's face. But so much of this is just feeling like their voice doesn't matter or they've been belittled or they don't feel valued. They don't feel appreciated. They're not getting credit. I mean, they're little things, nonverbals, the tone of someone's voice, rubbing people the wrong way.
So feedback is so incredibly helpful. So, you know, listening to your talk and reading your work, one of the things I think we always go back to our own personal experience, right? So like for me, I have had one like extremely obvious, very memorable rude boss who slammed doors and would literally in the middle of people talking would go, shh, shh, you're
You're being shh. And I mean, that was like out of a movie bad. But I think one of the things that I was struck by is that a lot of times, both at work and in life, there are these other things that are more of a gray area, right? Like you're talking to someone and they're looking at their phone.
Or instead of, you know, engaging with you, like if you if I say something that I think is funny instead of laughing, they go, huh? And I'm like, oh, that makes me feel bad. You know, that makes me feel really bad. But what can you do about those things? Like, because.
It's scary to me to think about how I would give feedback to a person because it almost feels like I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. And I know that it actually is important. But how how can you give someone feedback to say, like, hey, by the way, when you look at your phone while we're talking, that makes me feel like I'm not being listened to.
How do you create the space for that? Yeah, well, usually, at least in the work context or in a team context, it's trading information about this. So you can set it up as kind of like, I'll ask teams to do this, but share like three things that are strengths or things that are helping you and or your team or your organization. What are two or three things that you could work on to improve the effect? And so it helps, right? Get the conversation started. A lot of times someone will start out and say, hey, I've gotten this
negative feedback before on X, you know, don't know if it's having this effect and it kind of opens up the floodgates. And so these teams have these long conversations where you're getting feedback from people from different cultures that may see you differently, you know, that may illuminate things that you just never recognized before. And so I think a team setting could be a safe space
spot where, you know, one person, especially if it's a leader or someone that that's just comfortable stepping up is vulnerable, you know, and says, OK, or, you know, hand up me first. You know, how can I help? And so that's helpful. I think one on one, you know, whether it's coffee or lunch, again, kind of trading feedback or just saying like these are a couple of things that I think are so incredibly helpful that you do.
Would you like some feedback on a couple of things that I think, you know, could serve you or our team better? You know, and so, again, you're kind of asking permission. That's, you know, one way to kind of at least the person hopefully is less defensive about it. I think really when I'm giving talks on this, the person and the source that I point to is Kim Scott's book and talk on radical candor.
So for me, when I coach people on this, you know, she talks about it's caring personally and challenging directly. And so I really see like respect is you're planting the seeds for, okay, people won't be nearly as defensive because what you have to say is you're coming at it with you have good intentions. You want them to be better. You expect them to be better. Right.
And so that's really helpful. And then there's a little bit of research that I find like good to kind of remind people of, which is if you preface the feedback you're giving with just 19 words, which is along the lines of, I believe in you.
you know, and I think that you could have a really positive effect. And so here are some specifics, you know, so that grounds it. And then there are some basics on feedback that, you know, are helpful, like what's the situation in which this happens? What's the impact it has on people? What is the specific behavior? And so grounding it in,
Like, how did it make you feel or your team? What was the impact on your team or something like that is helpful because what you don't want to do is personalize it. Like you are X and, you know, make it real trait based. Like you are a jerk, you know? Yeah.
When you say X, you know, or... I think you could do better at not being such a rude person, which you are. Yeah, exactly. And so I think grounding it in specifics makes people, again, less defensive. But I really think if we're being respectful to each other and, again, going back to these basics that we kitted around about kindergarten-type behavior, people believe, like, okay, they see me as a human. They value me. And therefore...
my defenses are, I'm not defensive. You know, when you give me the feedback, I think, oh, they have my best interests at heart. You know, they're trying to coach me up. And in the best context, I see teammates doing this for each other. It also feels to me like
Like I'm a very conflict averse person. So by the time I bring this up to someone, it's going to be something that I have been like fixating on and stewing in my head. It's really gotten to the big level. And so I think sometimes for myself, I have to just remind myself this is the first time they're hearing about it, even though it's been going on in my head and getting bigger and bigger and bigger for probably months by the time I say it. So something that I'm finding really interesting.
useful and practical, which is not the way I would have done it, is to make it a process rather than like an intervention. Yeah. So instead of being like you, can we talk about a big problem that I'm having? It's instead like, hey, it would be good if, you know, on a regular basis, we checked in on what's working and what's not. And I can kind of say this is one of the things that's not working and we could do better on it.
Yeah, that's awesome. And, you know, I think, again, working with organizations or teams on this, if you can create a culture where that becomes the norm, right? So like we're high-fiving each other on a regular basis for good things, or we're calling each other out in a fun way, you know? I mean, we may have hand signals for this. We may have, I worked at a university where we had yellow card, red card, you know, kind of like hand signals in the moment. And I just think, you
You know, you want it to come naturally, as you said. And so as much as you can make this, I think, informal and make it like we're coaching each other in the moment, you know, just like and again, maybe this gets back to like my athlete roots. But, you know, the expectations are we're trying to help each other on the field and off the field, you know, and it's constant. And like you said, it's a process. And so we're just trying to improve, improve ourselves and improve each other along the way.
Yeah, you know, it's funny. I wish I could remember where I heard this from. So this is not my brilliant thing. But I once heard someone say that, you know, we each have a blind spot in our lives. That's the exact size and shape of ourselves. And it really feels like that is true. No, you know, one of the things that someone said to me, which at first I was like, what are you saying? She said, I feel sorry as people move up in organizations. And I said, what do you mean?
You know, I'm thinking like, that's crazy. And she said, because they get less and less realistic feedback. You know, like there's more and more of a barrier to people really speaking up or really sharing, you know, you're a jerk when you do X or you're hurting us or, you know, people when you're texting, you know, as we're talking to you. And those are some of the basics that I heard early on and hear the most is, you know, your example about people not paying attention while you're talking. Because I think...
You know, our phones, we're so used to being tethered to technology that it becomes really challenged to put the phone away. And, you know, there's really interesting research that shows like if the phone is just there between us, we're two strangers, it's distracting to both of us. And you're less likely to like me and trust me because it's like, you know, I have it there.
It's also a revealing egocentric example for me of like, oh, the worst thing they could do is not make me the center of attention. That's a me thing for sure. As I say, as I host this podcast. OK, we're going to unpack that a little bit more in just a second. But first, we have to take a quick break.
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There's also engineered air mesh on the upper side of the shoe that provides the right amount of stretch and structure. It'll turn everyday miles into everyday endorphins. That sounds good, right? Let's run there. Visit brooksrunning.com to learn more. And we are back. We've been talking about civility and incivility in the workplace. And Christine, what if someone who's listening to this podcast has kind of had this realization that actually they have been the one who didn't treat people the way they should have in the workplace? Yeah.
Maybe they're realizing that they've been rude or just less than civil. What should you do if you're that person? I think I would start by asking your most trusted friend or colleague out for coffee and ask them, you know, why?
what do you really think? Because I'm a little worried that I might not be having the effect that I'd like on my team. You know, I really want to become a leader or I really want to positively contribute my best and I'm worried that I'm not. So what are some specifics that you think I could be doing better?
But then I would expand that, you know, and kind of go to other sources. The other thing is people tend to kiss up and kick down. So if anything, err on the side of getting feedback from, you know, people that may have less power or status than you. And then the other
thing is I would encourage people to get feedback from friends and family because what is very typical is that the same patterns show up, you know, maybe not as extreme, but they, that, and that can be revealing too.
especially given how many people are feeling today with so much negativity out there and a real sense of isolation and loneliness, which started pre-pandemic, it leads us to retreat even more. So the opposite of what we could and should be doing when we're lonely, we tend to back up.
back up, you know, or if we feel awkward about something, we withdraw versus kind of reaching out. And I think, you know, that just sends us and in this case, you know, a relationship in a negative spiral where we make we don't necessarily recover. And so I think, you know, if you can really try to reach out and be the person that steps up, that's helpful. But it's really hard because I'm like you, I would say I'm more avoidant.
on a lot of these conversations. And with age, I think, and just knowing more and more how helpful it can be, I've gotten better. But I think the other thing, when I'm coaching people on this is like, how do you receive feedback? Because I think that's an under discussed part of it, right? And we don't know how to respond. It's awkward. Like, what do you do with that?
And so, you know, that's something else to consider. Well, it's interesting as listening to you talk, it actually makes me think that maybe even the wording of positive and negative feedback is maybe not even accurate. Right. It's like it's either like actionable or not actionable feedback. Right. Like if you're doing something great, you want to know to keep doing it. If you're doing something that's not great, you want to know to change it. So it's not even negative feedback. Negative feedback is fake feedback.
Yeah. Negative feedback is everything's good when actually everyone hates you and all of your star employees are about to quit and all your colleagues will never work with you again. That's negative feedback. But I had never thought of it that way before. We're talking to you. Yeah, I love that. And there's another kind of activity that people say or way to frame it, which is like, what do I need to stop and what do I need to start?
And so, again, I think oftentimes with leaders, it's like you actually are going to get more return by what you need to stop doing, you know, looking at your phone when someone's talking to you or being on the, you know, like multitasking or something like that. But so I think, you know, that's another way to frame it. But I love that idea about the actions that you can take, because I think that's the goal, really, you know, is just to start and
See it. I also think your point about process is so important. So that's where, you know, having kind of a friend invested in you or a family member, you know, someone that cares about you a lot at work, it's really helpful because really, and Marshall Goldsmith talks about this a lot. It's like, you want someone to check in with, you know, you want to say, how am I doing six months later or three months later, a month later, whatever the case may be, because it
We have, again, a hard time recognizing we think we're improving. You know, we certainly hope so. But it's like, what's the effect? You know, what are the consequences? So you wrote a book, Mastering Civility, and your next book is Mastering Community. What are some of the most significant takeaways from your research on civility that can be applied to the world outside of the workplace?
Well, I think stability pays is a huge one. People are twice as likely to see you as a leader. You know, they're much more likely to seek and share information. You tend to perform a lot better. And again, you know, across a range of industries and situations. And so I think getting the message out there about,
move beyond neutral. Like it does pay to be respectful, to be civil, to create an atmosphere where people feel valued. They feel a sense of belonging, whether that's the workplace, whether that's the home, whether that's, you know, a field of play, you know, you really want to instill that in others. And so I
I think providing people with a sense of value and recognition goes a long way. I mean, one of the surprises, for example, was just how much thank yous matter and how few times people get it. So that was an aha for me. Well, I think it brings up a really important idea, which is that for a lot of people, being kind means getting taken advantage of.
Right. So like if you're the kind boss or you're the respectful boss, it means that like someone doesn't show up for work. They do bad job and you just say like, good job. Thank you so much. And you just smile at them. And it seems really important to acknowledge that like that lowering your standards is not a prerequisite of being kind and respectful.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's, again, it goes back to simple things. I mean, another great example of this is Tom Gardner, who's the co-founder and CEO of Motley Fool. And, you know, I heard him years ago talk at Google about how,
you know, culture is so important. That's how they're financially betting on companies and they've done remarkably well, but also how they were living it. And so at the time, he actually challenged his employees. He said, you know, everyone has to learn each other's names. And there were about 250 employees at the time.
And he, you know, he said, you don't get your bonuses unless not just you, but everyone learns each other, every name. And, you know, there was one person that didn't. And sure enough, the guy reached out and, you know, scheduled coffees and learned everyone. And Tom really wasn't going to withhold the bonus, so to speak. But his point was it helps if you just know a name.
Or, you know, they give $10 Starbucks cards to take someone out to, you know, get to know each other. But his point was like collaboration and trust are so important. And what are the ways, the really basic ways that we can, you know, get this going in our, you know, in our company? And so that's gone a long way.
Well, I know we're already almost over. Well, we are over time, but we have two rapid fire questions, short, short answers, and then we'll let you go. These are the questions that we ask every single episode. What is one idea, book, movie, et cetera, that has made you a better human? Rhythm of Life by Matthew Kelly is a big one that I really enjoyed and that had a huge impact and that I go back to and reread. And
Second one is, how are you personally right now working on being a better human? A couple things. I would say, you know, in the morning, I do like five things I'm going to give and five things I'm going to get. So it's a wake up and pray kind of meditation, which I think is helpful and really gets me to focus on the five things that really kind of set me off on the day that
well, I think is something that's been helpful. Amazing. Well, Christine, thank you so much for being here and for talking with us and for all of the work that you do. It's been really fantastic to talk about it. And I am sure that there are many people who are going to realize that they are less self-aware than they thought and figure out how to be more self-aware and change for the better as a result of your work. Thank you.
That is it for today's episode. I'm your host, Chris Duffy, and this has been How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to our guest, Christine Porath. On the TED side, this show is brought to you by the very respectful Abhimanyu Das, the extremely civil Daniela Balarezo, the self-aware Frederica Elizabeth Yosefov, the affirming Ann Powers, and the illuminating Kara Newman.
From PRX Productions, How to Be a Better Human is brought to you by Jocelyn Gonzalez, who knows everyone's name, Pedro Rafael Rosado, who gives constructive feedback, and Sandra Lopez-Monsalve, who's always working on personal growth. Thank you for listening, and please, treat people well. Also, leave us a positive rating and review. Have a great week. PR.
