How to co-parent as allies, not adversaries (with Ebony Roberts)
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Okay, on today's episode, we're talking about parenting. And full disclaimer, I don't actually have kids, but I do have parents. And I want to have kids of my own someday. Regardless of where you're at in your own life regarding children, I think that we can all get something out of thinking through and talking about family dynamics. Whether your family is a chosen one or a biological one, whatever your family looks like.

And our guest in this episode, Ebony Roberts, is someone who I find to be remarkably nuanced and open in thinking about these kinds of issues. And as you'll hear in this episode, she has experienced quite a lot in her own life, and she's come through it determined to create new patterns and new family dynamics rather than just repeating the old ones. Ebony and I are going to be talking about co-parenting and how she thinks about this kind of stuff. But first, here's a clip from her TEDx talk. Our breakup hit me really hard. Mm-hmm.

But I decided I wouldn't let my broken heart get in the way of what was best for Sekou. We struggled initially trying to navigate this new space as co-parents. I asked myself, "How do we raise this beautiful boy full of wonder and promise and so much power in spite of our failures as a couple?" The answer for me was simple.

I could either choose fear, fear of being alone, fear of the unknown, or choose love. And I chose love. That means seeing the good in you as a father. It means seeing the good in you as a father and not your missteps as a partner. It means putting Sekou first every time, even if it means I don't get my way. I know my parents went back and forth trying to work things out for my brother and I's sake.

Though I appreciated their effort, I wish they hadn't. I saw too much. I heard too much. I knew I didn't want that to be Sekou's story. I wanted Sekou to know what it was like to see two parents who got along, two parents who worked together as a team. I wanted him to know what love looks like in its truest form. Love is patient. Love is kind. Love does not anger easily. It keeps no wrongs.

Love always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. We are going to hear more from Ebony in just a moment. We'll be right back.

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I mean, you could like up the energy a little bit. You could up the energy. I actually don't take notes. That was good. I'm just kidding. You sounded great. So did you. And we are back. On this episode, we're talking about co-parenting and building healthy family dynamics with Dr. Ebony Roberts. Hi, my name is Ebony Roberts. I'm a writer and researcher and the mother of a nine-year-old son named Sekou. This is a short question, but a big one.

In your opinion, what makes a good parent? I think what makes a good parent is someone who is in tune with themselves and can then be in tune with their child. I think when we don't know who we are and kind of what we need, then it's hard for us to tap into what our children may need. And so I think that it's important for us to connect to our inner child and

And when we do that, I think that makes parenting a little bit easier and definitely provides more compassion, more understanding to the whole parenting process and for your child's development. Something that I find really interesting

inspiring and impressive about you is you're obviously a person who has all sorts of big professional accomplishments. You've done big things, but you are also not afraid to be vulnerable and to show the things that are hard and challenging. And I think sometimes, especially when it comes to parenting, there's this sense that we're not supposed to talk about the challenges. It's only supposed to be perfect and easy and amazing and a gift all the time. How do you balance those two things in your own life?

Yeah, you know, I try to balance it through talking to other parents, to be honest. It helps me to stay grounded because I think that it can sometimes, you know, feel overwhelming sometimes.

And we are in our own sort of in our own bubble, particularly over the last year and a half. You know, we're kind of in our own bubble. And I think just reminding myself that I'm not the only parent that's going through this or that has gone through this. I have parents, friends who are in family members who have children that are older. And so I look to them for advice and for encouragement and sometimes, you know, for prayer, you

Help me get through sometimes some of those difficult moments. But I think it is so important that we balance that because parenting is hard. And, you know, we don't you know, my philosophy is that, you know, we don't parent alone. You know, I'm a single parent in the sense that, you know, my son's dad and I are not together, but I don't parent alone. He's a partner in parenting. I also have a brother. I have friends, you

who help carry the load, help me carry the load as a parent. And I never want to lose sight of that because we can get so stressed out and wanting things to be perfect and wanting things to

To be, you know, a certain way, not just because we want to paint a picture for the for the world, but also, you know, I'll speak for myself. You know, I was raised in a in a in a home that was dysfunctional. So I want to be perfect for myself because I don't want my son to have.

the traumas and the pain that I had as a child. So I'm even more conscious of those behaviors and more conscious of things I do. And so in my mind, I want to be the perfect parent so that he doesn't need therapy as an adult, but he probably still will. Yeah, we all end up needing it some way or another. We all need ending it.

But yeah, so I just really think it's important that we don't try to do this alone and just understand that there is no manual. Well, let's talk a little bit about the fact that you are parenting with a partner who you're not together with anymore. You are co-parenting, and that's very common. So what are some of the common challenges that people face when they're trying to co-parent?

I think one of the top issues that co-parents face is communication. It is difficult to communicate with someone, especially when they're still lingering hurt or pain from the relationship.

I think one of the reasons that it may be difficult to communicate is that we allow some of that pain to sort of cloud those communication channels together.

And some of the, you know, well, he said, she said, and, you know, you kind of bring into your current co-parenting relationship how that person may have been in your relationship when you all were a couple. And that kind of, you know, can linger in terms of your communication style. So if you didn't have healthy communication as a couple, that doesn't magically change just because you're not.

in a romantic relationship. Now those challenges communicating are now just sort of, you know, transformed into this co-parenting relationship. And so you have to address that. And I think that's one of the things. And I think in that is ego, right? So nobody...

Wants to be wrong. You know, we all believe that, you know, our opinion or our way of doing things is the right way. And so sometimes when it comes to, you know, communication, our ego can get in the way and and some of that that happens.

pain that maybe is unresolved can get in the way of the best communication. So what can people do when they're trying to co-parent? Because these are, it's so hard even when you recognize like, oh, I know my ego's in the way and oh, I know it's not their fault, even though I'm angry at them for something that happened 20 years ago or five years ago or whatever.

three months ago, whatever it is. Sometimes we, even when we recognize that it's hard to get past it. So do you have any tips that work for you or that you've seen work for other people went to, to kind of have that conversation go better? I think, um,

Sometimes, just as in any other relationship, taking a step back and not having those tough conversations when you're really emotional, like when it's hot. Like when the fire is really hot, that's the worst time to try to have a conversation. So my advice is to, you know, take a step away from whatever that, you know, that moment, whatever that issue is that, you know, may be, you know, very challenging for you and, you

try to process it and then come back so that you both can have a more, you know, calm, more, you know, more peaceful conversation about whatever that is. And then one of the things that I have learned to do is take deep breaths so that I'm not flustered. And that also helps me to not raise my voice because when we start raising voices, then

that escalates the argument and makes the other person feel more defensive. And then they need to, you know, they feel they need to raise their voice and then we don't get anything accomplished in that, you know, at that point. So, yeah, I've always thought that one of the worst pieces of relationship advice that people give is never go to bed angry. I'm like, if you're angry and tired, that is not going to end well. I think it depends. Even if all you can do is say, you know what, we're not going to get anywhere tonight. Let's,

Let's, you know, let's agree to disagree right now and come back to it tomorrow. I think what the wisdom in that that advice is really just don't go to bed like hot tempered, like literally angry, like hot tempered, like that's like I think that isn't a good thing.

But I think if you can at least reach a understanding before you go to bed, OK, maybe we aren't going to be able to talk about this right now. I'm upset. You're upset. This isn't a good time to talk about it. Let's talk about it tomorrow. I do think that there, you know, the things that we do with our partner, you

are also things that we can model with our children when we're dealing with them and their, you know, the challenges that they have. Like I'm not at the, you know, I'm not arguing with my child, but, you know, we do have, you know, debates rather it's debates about what he thinks he should be able to do or things, you know, things that he disagrees with in terms of parenting choices that I've made when it comes to bedtime or eating or, you know, playing or whatever the case may be. And so,

I try to model good behaviors in terms of resolving conflict, even with him, not just him seeing me resolve it with his dad, but also resolving it with him directly. Yeah. I mean, it really stands out to me how intentional and how thoughtful you are about the pieces of parenting and about the way that you raise your son. But I'm curious, like,

How for one of them that stands out that you talk about in your talk is the affirmations and that nightly routine that you do with Sekou. How would you how did you design that in the first place? How did you think about what you wanted that to look like? And how would you recommend to new parents who are looking to build traditions and rituals for their own family to think about it?

Yeah, that was actually his dad's idea. And I think Sekou was around two. I was doing the bath time and reading the book. And so this was his way of being included in the bedtime ritual. And so he decided that he wanted to do affirmations with Sekou. And so even after...

he and I broke up, we have continued to do that because Sekou was three years old when we broke up. So, you know, and he's nine. So for the last, you know, six years, we continue to do, you know, he continues to do nightly affirmations with him, whether Sekou was with me or he's there with him. And so I think it's just really powerful that this is, you know, something that, you know,

This sort of ritual and say, cool, like if something happens and he's not able to do affirmations with his dad, like he's visibly saddened by the fact that he can't do affirmations with his dad. And I mean, I can do affirmations with him. Yeah. But it's something special between him and his dad that they do together. And so it's something that, you know, I don't typically do with him. You know, I sort of my role in our bedtime ritual is prayer. Right.

So we do prayer every night. So I do the prayer with him. His dad does the affirmations. And it's always been that way. We're going to take a quick break and then we're going to be back with more conversation and more insights from Dr. Ebony Roberts right after this.

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play dates, deciding what he's going to wear, what he's going to eat. For us, it's about helping each other carry the weight, unpack the load, and to show up in the world in a way that honors the beauty of our son. And it's for these reasons that we do affirmations. We never thought we'd be here, but here we are. And we hope that the way that we show up for Sekou and for each other is a model of what successful co-parenting can look like.

We'd like to bring you all in to this nightly ritual of affirmations that Shaka does with Sekou every night at bedtime. Hey.

Good job, babe.

Ebony, that is such a beautiful ritual. And and you're really it feels like trying to make sure that Segu has these powerful repeated experiences. How did how did that come about in the first place? You know, in terms of creating rituals, I think, you know, there's

I think affirmations are a great ritual. I think reading at that time is a great ritual. I think that it doesn't have to be anything fancy. It doesn't have to be anything wild. It just needs to be something that feels special between you and your child. My son's nine and

Believe it or not, he still likes me reading books to him. And I know that- - I absolutely believe that. I bet that'd be amazing. - So that has kind of become our thing, you know? And now that he's older,

He's actually enjoying just us talking at bedtime. So we'll cut the lights off. So that's kind of become a new ritual for us is that he'll, you know, we'll cut the lights off. And, you know, before I leave the room, we'll just lay in the bed and talk about whatever. He's like, what do you want to talk about tonight? And we can talk about something in the book we've read. We could talk about something from his day. It could be anything. But he loves those times now that he's older. It seems to me like you are...

very naturally and intuitively able to kind of like follow the openings, right? Where your son is like, oh, actually, like I like this moment where we turn off the light and we get to talk and then you make that a thing and then it becomes a thing where it grows and you both really treasure it. For people who aren't quite as naturally or intuitively able to sense those openings or think like, oh, this is the thing that we should kind of preserve that makes special. Do you have any tips on how they can recognize them or create them?

I think the biggest advice I would give would be to just be in the moment. Like,

I know sometimes, particularly in the age of smartphones, we are quick to want to record some of those moments. But just not think about recording the moment, but just be in the moment. And I think also...

One of the things that's helped me become a better parent is I try to think about what I was missing as a child and what I needed as a child. And I think if we if we think about, you know, what we needed as a child, I think it'll help us sort of.

you know, take a step back and kind of connect with that inner child in us so that we can connect with our children so that we can sort of figure out what might be some of those special moments. And it might not be, you know, what you may have needed as a child may not be what your child needs, but you won't know until you test it out, you know? So, you know, my mom wasn't, you know, the type of person to, you know,

hug and, you know, be affectionate. And so I am very clear about making sure that, you know, I shower him with kisses and shower him with hugs and those things that I needed. And so I think that as long as we stay connected to that inner child,

I think that that will help us connect with our children in new and different ways and try to figure out what it is that we could possibly create into a ritual or some kind of sacred moment that we can share with them over and over again. You know, this has come up a few times, and I think it's something that a lot of people have and that really can relate to is the idea that

You recognize patterns that you've seen in your own parents, you know, whether they're subtle or whether they're very overt and obvious. And you choose that you don't want to take those in your own parenting. But then there's also other things that you do want to take. How do you think about that in your own parenting and how do you think other people should?

Yeah, I think, you know, none of us has a manual when we become parents. You know, there's nothing that has been, you know, as many parenting books that have been written, there's no manual really. And so, you know, as much as I would, you know, change or have tried to change in the way I parent compared to how my parents chose to parent, I know that they did the best that they could with what they had.

And, you know, where they were in their life and where society really was at the time, you know. And I think that it's important that we don't, you know, that we, as I said earlier, that we remember that we're not we're not perfect. And so we can take lessons from our parents. And I certainly have.

Um, I've taken many lessons from my mom, but I've also made conscious choices to do things differently. And I think that that probably is a case for a lot of people now. Um, you know, when it comes to, um,

uh, spanking or whooping as we call it, you know, people will say, well, I, you know, I survived, you know what I'm saying? I turned out okay. And it's like, well, really did you, you know, you were beaten. Um, so, you know, um,

My son's dad and I made a conscious decision that we were not going to, you know, use physical violence to discipline him. Those were conscious decisions because of the way he was raised. I wasn't, you know, beaten as much as he was as a child, but that was a conscious decision to say, you know, we're not going to go that route.

And so you do have to be conscious and it can it can be trying because kids will try you, you know, but you just have to have, you know, make a conscious decision. And I think for me, it was just a change in mindset, you know, in addition to just wanting to be a different type of parent. You know, I've sort of evolved as a person, you know.

And, you know, through the things I've read, the things that I've experienced and my mindset shift in terms of how I relate to other people is different, you know. And so that helped me, you know, as a parent. I didn't have Seikou until I was 36. So I lived, you know, quite a bit of life and had several experiences and had read a number of books.

that just helped me become a better human, right? And we're here to talk about being a better human. And so those things just helped me become a better human and really shifted my mindset in the way that I look at the world. And so when I was blessed to have a child, I just extended those things into my view of parenting and what I thought parenting should be. You know, I think a lot of times people think about co-parenting with someone who they're not in a romantic relationship with as parents.

just a burden or maybe like a thing, a negative that they're having to work around, but there are all sorts of positive elements of it too. So what, what have you been surprised by, um, raising a, a child with someone you're no longer in a romantic relationship with? Um, I am surprised at, um, our ability to really come together when it matters most. Um,

I think I'm surprised, although this was a conscious effort, you know, it is a conscious effort for us every day. You know, my son, you know, obviously he he he, you know, doesn't like, you know, going back and forth between two homes. But we try to minimize the impact of that as much as possible. And so I've been just really surprised and grateful for how we've shown up for him and

So that he doesn't feel it. I mean, he has no clue what it could be like. When he's at his dad's house, I call him every morning to wish him good morning, wish him a good day. And his dad does the same. He calls him in the morning. He wishes him a good day. We talk to him all the time. It's like you would never...

You would never think that he was in two different homes because we don't...

We just were just ever present in his life. It's not like when he's with his dad, I don't talk to him for five days. You know what I mean? Like I'm talking to him all the time. And so he doesn't feel that void when he's with one or the other. So it's kind of like we hand off and it's almost seamless in terms of the love he gets and the care and attention. And that is is is something that we we've been intentional about and shared.

I don't think it's that common. No, I think it's very I think it's so clear to me. I mean, one of the words that I feel like we've used a lot in this conversation is intentional. And it's so clear to me that you are so thoughtful and intentional and loving in thinking about being a parent and in how you communicate this to other people. Right. Not just for yourself, but in how you talk about it publicly. Right.

You know, I think it's it's it started out as I'm just doing what I think is best, you know, for for my family. And then, you know, we would share out, you know, the things that we would do together to co-parent. And when people started reflecting back to us, like, wow, you know, like they were they were shocked, right?

at some of the things that we were doing. And in fact, for a long time, we're like, so why aren't y'all together? Like y'all seem to be working out, you know, this co-parenting thing just fine. Like, why aren't y'all together? And so when people started sort of reflecting back to us, you know,

That we were, you know, we were changing the narrative. I think that's when it hit like, wow, okay, yeah, let's talk about this. Let's talk about how we're changing the narrative. And so, you know, I think, you know, it was amazing to be able to share our story on the TED platform because, you know,

you know, I think it is a narrative that is, is, is changing. You know, I, I don't think that we're unique and that we're the only, you know, other, you know, parents that are, that are doing this, but I think the more people hear about it and know that it's possible, you know, we've had so many people that have reached out to us and was like, I needed, I needed that, you know, to just to see that it's possible, right. To see that it's,

it's hard. It's certainly hard, but it's possible. And I've had people who said, you know what, I'm going to share that with my son's father, or I'm going to share that with my daughter's mom. So they're trying, they want that, because nobody wins when parents are warring with each other. Nobody, and certainly the child doesn't win. And so I think that

You know, it has become more conscious to me over the last, you know, five or six years and certainly have tried to be more more more to share more just so that people can can see what's possible.

There's something also that, you know, gets said a lot in writing, in creative writing, right? That the specific is the universal. And so what you went through and what you have lived through and continue and your current experience, right? No one has lived that exact unique experience.

piece, but by opening up and by sharing the details and by sharing how you feel about it, all of a sudden people all over the world in so many scenarios find themselves in you and find strength in not feeling alone because of what you've shared. Um, I have, uh, two final questions for you. Um, first one's kind of a little bit of our, more of a rapid fire one, which is, um,

Regardless of whether they're a single parent, a co-parent, they're in a marriage, they're not in a marriage. What are three things that everyone listening to this who is a parent should do to be a better parent? I think the first thing is to tap into your inner child. Remember the little girl or the little boy and heal the hurt and the pain that that little girl or little boy has.

And remember what you needed and wanted and maybe you didn't get and maybe things you did get that you loved and appreciated. So I would say first tap into the little child in you. I think also heal yourself first.

Which is tied to that first one, right? Like heal yourself because I think that there is no way for you to show up full and whole as a parent. And I'm not saying I'm perfect by any means, but there's no way to show up full and whole as a parent and give your child what they may need if we're still broken and hurting ourselves.

And then I would piggyback on what Glenn Henry said about apologizing.

you know, um, I apologize to my son, you know, let him know, you know, if he tells me, you know, something you said hurt my feelings or he says, you know, he didn't like something, you know, um, I apologize to him and I allow him to, you know, have a voice. And, um, I think there's a lot to be said about children who, you know, who feel like they have a voice, um,

And I think, you know, obviously the home is their first, you know, their universe is home, right? And so when they feel empowered at home, they take that out into the world. And so when we shut children down, we don't, you know, we don't treat them as human. One thing that I want to say before I go into the final question is just,

I think there's sometimes, you know, I'm not a parent. I was a teacher and I hope to be a parent one day. But one thing that was really clear to me in observing other people's children and in working with them as a teacher is that

We often think that kids get the stuff that you say explicitly to them or that you try and teach them. But a huge way that they learn is just from watching the way that you do things and from seeing how you approach problems and how do you approach stressful things and how do you approach sad things. And it's so clear to me that you not only get to give your son the explicit lessons, but that he is also seeing these really thoughtful, intentional, loving ways in which you

approach the world and you approach hurt and pain and challenges. Sekou is a very lucky kid. He's learning in a lot of ways. It's so, so crystal clear, even in this short time that we've gotten to talk. It's really obvious. - Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. - So the final question we always ask in the show is the show's called "How to Be a Better Human." What's one way in which you are trying to be a better human right now? - Trying to give grace to other people,

You know, whether it is at the grocery store or in traffic and L.A. traffic can be a beast. But or with with my my son and even with myself, you know, I'm.

Giving each other grace and understanding that, you know, someone may be having a bad day or someone, you know, may have just heard the worst possible news or, you know, someone may have had a sick child at home. But, you know, all the things that, you know, we go through as humans, we're all going through it. And so just giving people grace and not allowing ourselves to get so frustrated and angry with each other and like the drop of a dime. Yeah.

And so I would want someone to be kind to me. And so I try to do the same thing with other people and not be so quick to be angered or to judge. Well, Dr. Ebony Roberts, thank you so much for being on the show. It was really a pleasure to have this conversation with you. And yeah, I hope that people will check out more of your work and read your books and dive deep into these lessons that you've given us here.

Thank you so much, Chris. You were awesome. Really great questions. I really appreciate the time and the honor. That is it for today's episode. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and this has been How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to our guest, Dr. Ebony Roberts. Her memoir is called The Love Prison Made and Unmade.

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