When an introvert and an extrovert fall in love with Chip and Joanna Gaines
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Progressive Casualty Insurance Company & Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. These days we're surrounded by photo editing programs. Have you ever wondered what something or someone actually looks like under all the manipulation? I'm Elise Hugh and you might know me as the host of TED Talks Daily. This October, I am giving a TED Talk in Atlanta about finding true beauty in a sea of artificial images.

I'm so excited to share the stage with all the amazing speakers of the TED Next conference, and I hope you'll come and experience it with me. Visit go.ted.com slash TED Next to get your pass today. Hey, everyone. It's Adam Grant. Welcome back to Rethinking, my podcast on the science of what makes us tick. I'm an organizational psychologist, and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking.

My guests today are Chip and Joanna Gaines, the couple best known for their show Fixer Upper, where they renovated homes, Chip handling the real estate and Joanna leading the design. They're the co-founders and co-owners of Magnolia, where they operate a home goods store, a TV network, a bakery, and a number of other businesses that have brought tourism to Waco, Texas. They're also New York Times bestselling authors. And if you've watched their show, you know Chip is an extreme extrovert and Joanna is an extreme introvert.

Ever since I met them a few years ago, I've been curious about how they navigate the differences in their personalities, not just at work, but also at home with their five kids. Joanna, were you just telling Chip to shush? No, no, no. The shush is me kicking him under the table.

Adam, I do, I always feel the need to defend myself in these moments. If you only knew, half the time she's kicking me, not to be quiet, but like to cover us. You know, it always looks like I'm this narcissist that just talks incessantly and poor Joe never gets a word in edgewise. But most of the time she's like, please talk and...

You want me to already stop talking? Yes. Let Adam welcome us to the podcast. No, I mean, this is great. We didn't even get into a minute before Chip got on the defensive. This is a great start. We're in trouble. We are in big trouble. Exactly what I was hoping would happen. Good to see you both. Good to see you, Adam. Let me just start by asking, because I don't know the backstory. How did you two meet? Oh, well, do you want the long version or the short version?

I want the Joe version, not the Chip version. I was going to say, are you asking me to say it or do you want Joe to say it? Yeah. I was working for my dad 10 years at his Firestone shop. And Chip was coming to pick up your friend who was getting some work done or something. And all the guys at the tire shop were truly like my brothers. I'd been working with them for almost 10 years. And so they were always trying to set me up with something.

You know, with somebody. The hot customers. And I told them no every single time. But something this time, I was like, I'll just go. And they were talking about my roommate, not me. It was the roommate named John. So they said, you know, he's...

He owns his own business. He seems like a really sweet guy. Why don't you just walk through the lobby and see what you think? And I finally said, fine. So I walked through the lobby, make eye contact with John, but then didn't know what to do. So then I just walked straight outside the front door. And that's where I met Chip Gaines coming to pick up John. And then, you know, I did these commercials from my dad for years. And so the first thing he said was, wait, you're that girl in the commercials.

And then we started talking. And what, two hours later? Yeah, we had quite the marathon conversation. Poor John, who the guys were all trying to set her up with, ended up just leaving. I mean, he was just like, I was his ride. He ended up just driving off by himself. And it was one of the most, she says, it was one of the most interesting conversation of her life. Oh, yeah.

And she said for two hours, I just talked incessantly. And she just listened, basically. Right. I was like, well, this could be fun. I would never have to talk and just sit back. But that was it. I guess that was a little bit of foreshadowing of things to come. Tires have never been so romantic as they were the day that Joe and I were talking in front of the entire set. There were all these displays of all the coolest tires on the planet. And there we were just talking away like we were in Central Park or something. When did you both

realize that this was not just a delightful conversation but that you were going to fall for each other? Joe was kind of like love at first sight for obvious reasons, right? Isn't that the way you remember it? I think Chip said I love you like pretty early on and I said thank you back. So

So I don't know. You can choose who you want to believe. People can hear this. Like this is actually, this is not just me, you and Adam. This is not our cell phone. No, it is. This is the three of us. Oh my gosh. It is true. Hilarious counter story to the beautiful first meeting that we had.

So we did. We had a little bit of a, it wasn't rocky really, but we would date a little bit and we kind of weren't. And then we date a little bit. Well, we finally kind of got serious. And it seems like this was certainly not years later. This all happened pretty quickly, but say six, eight months after we met, I was on her driveway and I'm sitting there and they had this little basketball court kind of off to the side. And we had one of these little mini balls. It wasn't even a full basketball. That we had won at

the fair. Which made it, oh, is that right? Okay. So we're shooting hoops and I'm just like, man, I don't know. I've gotten to where I can't see myself without this girl. You know, I've got this nerdy little basketball and I kind of pass it to her. And I was like, I just, I love you, you know, and it just kind of pops out. And I said it pretty confidently, but also a little sheepish.

and she catches this little nerdy miniature basketball and was like, thank you, and kind of shoots the basketball back. And I kind of sat there for a minute and was like, man, this is not the way I saw this going. And all of a sudden, I was overwhelmed with emotion.

And not positive emotions. I was like really irritated. Like a little boy on the playground that was mad. Yeah, I got kind of mad about the experience we were having. And so I go over, she shot this little dorky basketball, catches it and kind of looks to me and I grabbed the ball and I literally put it under my arm and I'm like, I'm going home. And he leaves. And I mean, like a toddler, like literally some type of a temper tantrum occurred as a grown ass adult.

And I just remember back to those kind of moments. And I just, I mean, there's no telling how we've made it through all of that. Plus, obviously, 20 years and five kids later and business and fame and all the variables. It's hilarious that things did start off a little rocky. Our communication style was just very different. This has been 20 years as we've been married. And I think just learning each other's just quirks, quirks, but also like, I don't know,

don't know, just figuring this out as we go, because we were so opposite. It's just this interesting journey of like, okay, how do we communicate, get on the same page, but still very different people? I don't know, has been such a fun challenge. But I think rewarding when we can figure that out and be lockstep because we're so opposite. It's almost like we found that magic middle. And the more we find that middle, that's our goal is to stay there to stay aligned. There's good evidence that

An introvert and an extrovert interacting tend to have a lot of times a smoother conversation than if it's two extroverts or two introverts because of the balance of talking and listening. But I've always felt as an introvert, and I think there's some research to back me up here, that that dynamic is better for the extrovert than the introvert. The extrovert is very happy to do a lot of talking and the introvert is slowly getting annoyed and overstimulated and...

Joe, often you prefer to be sort of like to yourself, like in your quiet place. And so to have somebody that kind of covers you in that way is, I think, you know, helpful and maybe part of the magic that makes this work. But to your point, Adam, it's like I get a kick out of it. So I'm thrilled to death about rocking and rolling. But I also, I think what...

sort of surprises people about me is that I'm an incredible listener. I'm attentive in that way. And so when Joe kind of settles down and gets ready to deliver her thing, I kind of know my time has come about just this chit chat, this superficial stuff that kind of flies above the radar.

And then now here's the real nitty gritty. I always love that balance, but it does feel like maybe this is a little bit of an overstatement, but kind of 90, 10, 80, 20, which I wonder if it should be more like a 64. I think beyond, cause I do think, you know, chip has always been, I would say you go before me in these like public things where I'm always like, he's got it.

I can just sit back and get time to process my thoughts. Like he always goes first maybe, and then I can process like when people ask questions. So he's helped me in that way. But I think just to your question about like in the morning, every morning, Chip makes me coffee and he's like, okay, come sit on the couch. And I'm still trying to wake up. And like, you know, why am I grumpy today? Or why am I feeling great? Like I haven't even processed that myself. I will say as an introvert and a very internal person,

The gift that I find in being married to, I think a high extrovert is when we sit at that

couch in the morning. It's that drawing out. And that's what he did on our first date. I was a pretty quiet girl. I didn't date a lot, like he said. And one thing I was fascinated with with Chip as we were sitting at the tire shop was he asked really great questions and he listens because he asked really great follow up questions. Like I was used to guys like asking the first question and then it was like, that's all they had. I was intrigued by the follow up, the layers, the depth that he had that you would assume someone as talkative as he does is just kind of like all talk.

But I think in the mornings, what I love is he's just digging that gold out that I'm just like, I don't have anything. Yeah, it makes me think that

I don't even know how to best capture this. Well, I'll just think out loud. I'll take a page out of the Chip Gaines playbook here. There you go. There you go. Embracing my non-existent inner extrovert. I think one of the things that's fascinating to me about that dynamic is, I guess I've always thought about this from the perspective of, you want somebody, if you're an introvert, a little bit more extroverted than you to

to provide the balance and vice versa. But if the difference is too extreme, you're just going to end up butting heads and clashing too much, not just in your communication styles, but also your habits. The stereotypical extrovert wanting to go to a loud party, the stereotypical introvert wanting to sit at home with a good book. Beyond the communication dynamics, how have you navigated the lifestyle and behavior preferences that are so different?

with your traits. This is amazing, Adam. You're sincerely getting to kind of where the rubber meets the road now. That has been the biggest challenge. An extrovert wants someone slightly less extroverted, but maybe not at a 90-10 margin. And an introvert wants somebody more extroverted, but maybe not at a 90-10 margin. And so how does that work? Somehow it works magically between us. We love to spend time together. I mean, we're just like a very unique couple in the sense that lots of couple friends of ours are like, man, for us,

a lot is too much. We need our separate time where Joe and I are sort of uniquely wired to where when we spend time apart, we seem to start butting heads in those moments. You know, it's like we're having a harder time getting back in rhythm when we've spent some time apart where so now we're just like, we just love to be together. So let's don't spend time apart. Why not? Let's don't screw up a good thing in that sense. But the extrovert, introvert, go out in public thing is real. I mean, because I'm drawn to people

go out and I'm drawn to adventures and I'm drawn to like social ideas, you know, whatever. That's what fuels you. That's what fills your tank. Sure. And that's what drains me. I think before fixer, it was that constant tug and pull of like, I want to go to this party with our friends. I'm like, Oh, you can go and just tell him I had the stomach bug like that for 10 years. And then when fixer happened, if you were noticed or whatever, that became a

something that we weren't used to that we were trying to figure out, you know, over the last 10 years, what we decided or what we figured out that we'd craved was just like being at the farm, hunkering down with our kids. And so the last 10 years has been a lot of that. But I think as we kind of come out of that, Chip is now back to, um,

He wants this adventure. He wants to go on road trips. He wants to do all the things. I think for me, the older you get and the more you're married to someone and the more you just want to make sure that they're fulfilled, it's like I have to get out of my comfort zone and maybe go on that road trip with him.

knowing that that fills them up. Just like he's given me doing home at the farm and just it's been like the sweetest thing. But now it's kind of like my turn, I feel like, to say, what adventure do you want to go on? As much as I hate traveling, all the things, I'm saying yes more than ever because I feel like

I've gotten fueled up. When you think about it, do you think like sort of like running for me? It's like, I don't like the idea of running, but then once I've run, then you feel great. The actual stress for me with going anywhere is the planning, the prep, the internal emotional thing that I have to get ready to like leave home. And that's the part that stresses me out. Once I'm finally at the place, I'm like, why wouldn't I do this all the time?

So I do know that your push and pull of let's go adventure is always the healthier option because I always come back filled up, even though I would typically say that's not what fills me up. I think it's the drain is the preparation. I probably would have driven myself off of a cliff where you were always a little more cautious and a little more reserved. And it's a fun balance in that way. You know, I think it's funny, though, Adam, still 20 years later, you're

He was presenting to me this option of something he's wanting to do. And every time I step into that place, I tell myself, be positive. I'm prepping myself. And as he's like, hey, Joe, what if we do this?

Right off the bat, five negative things. Cause I just think you optimist, dude, you're not thinking through and I had to do it. And I don't know how much of that is so in me, the optimism in you, the pessimism, or again, the realism, whatever you want to call it. But it's just like 20 years later, I was laughing that I'm like, I still show up to the table thinking of the critical, the negative, the what ifs. And he hadn't even thought about one of them.

20 years later, somehow we're still doing this, even though I'm still pretty pessimist and he's still very optimistic. We both think we've moved like miles in each other's directions, but really we've probably moved like one degree or one percentage point, you know. Now, another layer of your relationship that I think is endlessly interesting is that you've been working together almost as long as you've known each other. So you've been married 20 years now? Yes. How long have you been working together?

21 years. Yeah, that's true. Sadly, when Joe and I met, but I always just carried a lot of cash on me. I was a serial entrepreneur with this pocket full of cash. And in theory, a lay person might witness this entrepreneur with this pocket full of cash and assume wild, successful thoughts. That's what I thought our first six months.

But instead it was because I didn't know how to balance a checkbook. I didn't really know how to pay bills. I would go to the bill department, quote unquote, wherever these places were. And I would literally pull out this wad of cash and people were like, we can't process cash here. Like go back to your house and write us a check on the bill that we sent you months ago. I was like, I mean, I had to explain to him like what insufficient funds meant. I was like, did they not teach you any of this in business class?

Like balancing a checkbook.

Like all of that was fascinating. And maybe I just felt like I needed to help him for a second. But I just loved what he did from a business standpoint because it was so interesting and fascinating. Never a dull moment. So basically 21 years. Kind of like weeks into our relationship, she quickly evolved into like, this boy needs some help. Like I'm going to.

Help with these ways. So our working relationship almost accidentally preceded our actual relationship. So we honestly don't know it any other way. We got married May 31st, opened Magnolia in October and,

So we renovated that little shop during the whole summer. And I wanted to do this little retail store. And Chip was, I mean, my biggest cheerleader. He renovated the whole building for me. It was just me and him doing all the work. And on the side, he was doing these rentals and these little remodels. And then I start this retail thing.

And for a couple years, this worked where he'd leave the office and go check on his houses and the clients. But we realized we just loved being together and we wanted to work together. When I would go with him to these clients, I would take notes and I would...

You know, understand like, oh, that's a change order. We need to add $550 to that. Where when Chip was at the shop with me and he'd have these conversations with my customers, I realized this isn't transactional. This is relational. Chip taught me these are people that are coming maybe to buy a candle, but really they're wanting that moment or just to get away for a second, that conversation. So we were kind of teaching each other. Mm-hmm.

valuable things in our own little worlds. And then we decided to bring that together. And then that's when we merged what I was doing with what Chip was doing. And that's when we started that Magnolia homes, which is truly that design and construction business. And we got to be together every single day. And so, um,

We don't know it any other way, but we do understand the value of what we both bring to the table. Had to guess just so we can say this to Adam and he can be maybe the mediator and help us decide who's right here. If I didn't have you, would I have still made it? And if you didn't have me, would you have still made it? Who would have been screwed worse had they not met the other? I would have been an accountant.

and I had a really cute cubicle, and you would have been in federal prison. So I don't know what you want to call making it, but that's the truth. Fair enough. I was just curious who would have been worse off, and it sounds like we both agree it would have been me. All right. We don't even need Adam for this one. I don't think there's anyone who disagrees with that statement.

I was going to go in probabilities and say I would be extremely confident that Joanna would have found some creative outlet that avoided the spotlight but was very meaningful to the audience that she chose. And Chip would have had like a 90% probability of a bunch of failures and regrets and a 10% probability of doing something exciting. Yeah.

Yes, I think that's a fair and accurate assessment. I agree and concur. You have great ideas. You just need a solid bookkeeper slash accountant. Yes, that's it. The pros and the cons. I used to joke with Joe, my family, if we weren't pulling weeds for neighbors, we were mowing somebody's grass. If we weren't mowing grass, we were selling lemonade on the corners.

And then we would process the balance sheet of it all on the back end. And we would find out that we lost a little money and we would learn from that experience. Well, Joe's family would just write business plans about businesses they had no intention of ever starting. They just...

pretended to start business. Joe literally had a journal packed full of six- He had three business plans. Oh, was it? I heard just three. Three solid business plans. Well, it felt like six or 10 to me. Well, there were multiple. And I was like, why haven't you done all 11 of these businesses? Like we should do these tomorrow. So we were opposites from the very beginning, for sure. I'm curious about what you've learned about working with your spouse.

I'm sure there are lessons for all of us, both for our jobs and our marriages. What are your favorite takeaways slash ahas when it comes to how to do that effectively? I don't think it's for everybody. I would almost say we're in the minority. You're always going to partner with your spouse in some way, whether that's

and creating a home together, raising children. There's a partnership. That's the point of marriage. I think with doing partnership in business, it's a whole other layer that I do truly think is not for everybody. So it's like, don't force it and don't assume that you're a failure or you can't figure it out. I think it's truly a gift when you can figure it out. But for the most part, if it's not that you're both doing the same business,

it's you're partnering with your spouse on a million different levels. So find the ones where you feel like you're really strong and keep strengthening that. And I feel like with us, what I've always loved that Chip has said is from the beginning, one of our biggest arguments was when we were renovating a house, our first year of marriage, and we were just arguing and it ended up with me trying to maybe throw a can of primer on him, but it ended up on me.

Well, she had a gallon of paint and she slammed it on the ground. And it literally, like the inertia of the paint just splashed back up in her face. So she literally just had paint dripping off her face. We had pretty heated debates and arguments in our family so that it was not totally uncommon. But when something like this happened...

it did break you out of that moment. And we would all be like, hey, time out. We're going to get back to this. But like, this is hilarious. And we would like kind of celebrate this hilarious thing that inadvertently popped out of this argument. I was much more confident in my I love you at that point because I was like, anybody who can stay the course and continue arguing despite the fact this white primer is dripping off of her face. I was like, this is my girl. But that was the moment for us where I think, you know, Chip kind of explained, hey, we're

with all that we do together with these homes, this business, everything, like we have to learn pretty quick or agree that we can either, um,

You can always say this better, Chip, because it's your... Well, just the idea that it's just like any tug of war. It's like if we're against one another, then let's pull against one another. And then that's a pretty good objective. And we'll see who pulls the rope the furthest. And one of us will get a trophy. But if we guarantee, if we like sort of start with the idea in mind that we're always together and the issue is what we're tug of warring, not each other. The thing I like to explain is just for Joe and I, it wasn't one...

plus one equaled two. But what was truer was that one plus one equaled 20. One plus one equaled a thousand. And as those dynamics started occurring, kind of like when you think about scaling a business, similar ideas, one plus one didn't equal a little bit more. One plus one equaled a lot more. And Joe and I kind of got a little addicted by the idea that when she and I came together against something, we weren't a little bit better at it.

We were like a lot better at it. And so it became a superpower of some sort. Joe and I are kind to one another. We give each other a lot of grace. We sincerely are for each other. Like if I don't do another thing, I'll be a cheerleader of yours for the rest of my life. And that's an honor and a privilege for me. And I think if we can somehow bring that idea of kindness into our houses, because unfortunately what's sometimes true is that you're kind of the meanest

to the people who are the closest to you because you know that they'll give you grace for that. And I think that Joe and I, of all of our flaws, and we've got countless flaws and faults, but of those flaws and faults, we're just naturally kind to one another and we naturally have a sincere respect for one another. And I think if somehow you can get those pieces of the puzzle in place first, the other things that you decide to build later have a better opportunity of being successful.

Okay, it's time for a lightning round. All right. What's the worst advice you've ever gotten? When people were saying, don't quit Fixer Upper.

We felt in our guts it was time to be done. And everyone said that would be the worst thing you could ever do. And it really turned out to be one of the best decisions of our lives. It was the right timing for us. For multiple reasons, yeah. But I think it was just like, hey, if you do this, everything goes away. And again, it wasn't why we were doing it or why we weren't doing it. It was just like in our guts, we were like, we need to pause. And so...

But everybody was saying... Basically, the idea was tough it out. Four more years won't kill you. Five more years won't kill you. And we were just like, no, we're sincerely done. And we're thankful that we kind of went with our gut on that one. Is that a one word answer? Almost made the lightning round. We'll get there.

We'll get better. We'll get better. That was a loaded question. Next question is about Fixer Upper. You renovated, remodeled a lot of homes, by which I mean Chip destroyed a lot of them and Joanna made them beautiful. What was your biggest aha or surprise from the interactions you had with people whose lives you were changing?

Is this the lightning round? Yes, this is so hard to think. It's supposed to be. I'm going to say just how important home is. Home is important to people. And we knew that going into Fixer and confirmed it times a thousand because it wasn't just the clients that felt that moment, but also the viewers, which turned into millions of human beings, really were captivated by how important home is. And I think that was a cool takeaway from Fixer. What is your best home improvement tip on a budget?

Mine's simple. It's always exterior. Like I literally sell houses for a living. So if you can't get a client out of the car to come and look at the beautiful bathroom and kitchen, then I mean, I've sincerely had people pull up to a house, look at it, and I saw them drive away and you're like, oh crap. So for me, it's shutters, it's landscape, it's a mailbox renovation that anybody can do on the weekends. You know, I love it.

stuff because for me, there's no better chance to make a first impression than the first impression. So I would leave it there. I'm more of the interior because I just want to be able to find that corner in the house where I can just reset. And so I would say paint, but I always think interior

Take these rooms that are smaller and start from there and build and then that builds your confidence So by the time you get to your kitchen, you've learned a lot when you did that entry or that powder bath I just think paint has a way of transforming a mood a space And I would say if you paint it yourself, you can do it truly on a budget Is it true that you don't have a tv in your house or that your kids aren't allowed to watch it true? Why? Yeah

Oh, really? Lightning round? I finally get one right and Adam's going to draw us into it. Long story short, we had this great couple who kind of offered to, quote unquote, give us premarital counseling, if that's a thing you're familiar with or if that's a common thing outside the Bible Belt. But Joe and I were honored to sort of be mentored by this couple. And this couple made a very sweet and sincere gesture when we were getting married. And they said, hey, you're about to go on your honeymoon.

and you'll never have another opportunity in your life to just spend really great quality time together, would you commit to us to not have a TV? And why don't you two go and think about how long that duration might be and come back and let us know what you've committed to. So we both wrote down one year. We came back to these people and we're like one year and they were like, gosh, y'all, sorry. You must've misinterpreted. Everybody says a week, maybe a month. Are you sure? And we're like, no, we

want to do this. We've gotten excited. Let's do it for a year. And at the end of the year, somehow we bumped into this couple and they were like, hey, so did you get a TV? And we're like, oh my gosh, we forgot about that one year commitment. Oh yeah, we need to go get a TV. And literally we looked at each other. We're like, let's go get a TV. And she was like, well, do we have to get a TV? And I was like, well, not really. Do you want a TV? And we went back and forth and one year turned into 20. We're headstrong enough to where we're just like competing against ourselves now. Wow.

All right. Is there a question you have for me? Oh, man. Well, you probably can't say this out loud. You go first. What do you mean? Well, I'm just going to ask him, like, what's his next book? Oh, writing about something kind of juicy. Yeah, I can answer that one. It's coming out in October. It's called Hidden Potential. Dang. I love that. I'm writing it down. All right.

And out of curiosity, you were so kind to ask us so many questions about our relationship. Are you and your wife kind of yin and yang like Joe and I? I mean, would she be more like me and you're more like Joe or not necessarily? I've always thought I was an introvert until Allison complained that I was an extrovert one day. And I was like, wait, this can't be right. And we had this whole back and forth. And finally, she said, the reason I know you're an extrovert is you type too loud.

Oh, my gosh. And all of a sudden it hit me. She's even more introverted than I am. And so from her vantage point, anyone who's a little bit less introverted is an extrovert. But I think we've aligned. We're both introverts. But she likes quiet and home and downtime even more than I do.

Well, Joe would like to join this. What do you call it? A trupple, you know, thruple, thruple. She would like to join this thruple because I can assure you she is tired of me constantly harassing her. But it's interesting. It's like I it's a constant challenge of like, holy moly. OK, you know, it's like internal challenges every freaking day. But it's it's good for me because I prefer zero challenge, zero risk, zero.

And lots of naps, but that is not what my life is. Sounds about right. All right, last question before I let you go. What's something that you've rethought recently? An opinion, a belief, a behavior? I just remember when I was little, I always wanted to be older. I just loved the idea of always being somewhere else other than where I was then, like always chasing that. And then I even think about

maybe buying into the lie of, hey, once you this, you'll feel fulfilled or you'll be happy. But I think now at 45, I would say in the last couple years, something has shifted in my perspective that I've just, I feel like I have had to rethink, which is just this value of time. And today in my journal, it was like one month and two days left until Drake leaves the house. You know, I've been counting down for 18 years, like my first son leaving the nest and

And now I'm down to one month and two days. And so my perspective on time has changed. Finally, this morning was like, I have a month and two days. Let's make it count. Let's make it matter. And, you know, we had a dear friend pass away this week. And someone said something really profound at her funeral. Our friend passed away from terminal cancer. And this other woman who was speaking, she also was diagnosed with terminal cancer. And she says there's a gift that comes with that gift.

when the doctor says it's terminal and you have X amount of time left is you get perspective on time that now every minute, every second, every moment truly matters. And that is the gift that they get. And I think for me, it was just like,

You know, you don't ever want to wait for that to get that perspective. You want to almost train yourself to see that naturally so that when that time comes or if change is coming, that you can really hold that in a healthy way. But I want more and more now to just be in the moment that I'm at. And I feel like the whole other 40 years of my life trying to be somewhere else, I'm finally here. And it's really, it's the best. It's a beautiful sentiment.

You got your chief cheerleader over there. He is my biggest cheerleader. Babe, that was good. And loudest. So good. And Chip listened through the whole thing. I had a lot of thoughts. Proof of concept. I've got a lightning round for you, Adam. Oh, yeah. Oh. What's the meaning of life? 42.

Obviously, if you're a Douglas Adams fan, you haven't read Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. That will make no sense whatsoever to you. I need a quick definition. I'm completely lost, but I'm writing this down because I'm going to get acclimated quickly. I don't know that anyone could ever find a compelling answer to that question. The most satisfying one I've come up with so far is that it's trying to make other people's lives more meaningful. Come on, man. Come on. Gosh, you're good at this lightning round. Can you coach us? No.

I'm going to do something different for our takeaway here. After this conversation, Chip sent me a text, and he said whenever he finishes an interview, he's left with a haunting feeling that he missed something. And this time, it was a question. He wanted to ask, quote, Okay, Chip, if you're listening...

I definitely have a whole group of mentors that I go to when I have major dilemmas. They're core to my challenge network. But in that spirit, I want to challenge the premise of the question: Why does a mentor have to be old? Why does wisdom have anything to do with age? There's actually research on this. A team of psychologists led by Paul Balthas figured out how to measure wisdom.

In some of their studies, they had people nominate the wisest person they knew and then had them answer questions about life dilemmas and compared their answers to people who weren't nominated as wise. And then were able to identify some of the features of wisdom. Like, for example, do you see things in shades of gray as opposed to just black and white? Can you identify the nuance and complexity in an argument?

Are you able to balance multiple people's interests when considering a problem? Or do you look at it only from one side's perspective? When they measured these attributes of wisdom, they found that between ages 25 and 75, the correlation between age and wisdom is zero. Wisdom does not come from experience. It comes from reflecting on experience. It's possible to be old and foolish. You can also be young and wise.

I'm guessing that Joanna already knows this, but your mentors don't have to be older than you. They could be your peers. Or who knows? Maybe they're your five kids.

Rethinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant, and produced by Ted with Cosmic Standard. Our team includes Colin Helms, Eliza Smith, Jacob Winnick, Asia Simpson, Samaya Adams, Michelle Quinn, Banban Cheng, Hannah Kingsley-Ma, Julia Dickerson, and Whitney Pennington-Rogers. This episode was produced and mixed by Cosmic Standard. Our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Original music by Hans Dale Sue and Allison Leighton Brown. I can't hear shit. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding, Adam.

Maybe we can raise it a little bit. Oh, nope. Okay, take two. Just bring it towards us. Bring it towards us? Just like that. This is like dumb and dumber. This is ridiculous. Are you sure you want to do this, Adam? You know, I'm already rethinking this invitation. He's rethinking this.

Support for the show comes from Brooks Running. I'm so excited because I have been a runner, gosh, my entire adult life. And for as long as I can remember, I have run with Brooks Running shoes. Now I'm running with a pair of Ghost 16s from Brooks.

incredibly lightweight shoes that have really soft cushioning. It feels just right when I'm hitting my running trail that's just out behind my house. You now can take your daily run in the Better Than Ever Go 16. You can visit brookscrunning.com to learn more. PR.