How to set boundaries with therapist Nedra Glover Tawwab
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Progressive Casualty Insurance Company & Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. These days we're surrounded by photo editing programs. Have you ever wondered what something or someone actually looks like under all the manipulation? I'm Elise Hugh and you might know me as the host of TED Talks Daily. This October, I am giving a TED Talk in Atlanta about finding true beauty in a sea of artificial images.

I'm so excited to share the stage with all the amazing speakers of the TED Next conference, and I hope you'll come and experience it with me. Visit go.ted.com slash TED Next to get your pass today. Hey, everyone. It's Adam Graham. Welcome back to Rethinking, my podcast on the science of what makes us tick. I'm an organizational psychologist, and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking. My guest today is Nedra Glover-Tawwab.

Nedra is a therapist and the New York Times bestselling author of the books Drama Free and Set Boundaries, Find Peace. And she hosts the podcast, You Need to Hear This. Nedra is a powerful voice on boundaries and self-care, and one of my favorite thought leaders on mental health and relationships. Hey, Nedra.

So excited to finally meet you. I have loved your content for as long as I've known about you. And I'm so excited to have a chance to learn from you today. Wonderful. Well, I can't wait to get into it. I would love to hear a little bit about your origin story. How did you become a therapist? Well, I didn't know it at the time, but apparently I was becoming a therapist while listening to people talk a lot when I was a kid. You know, I would listen to...

my parents, my peers. I am the youngest grandchild of like 10 plus grandkids. So a lot of listening. When I started grad school, I had an internship working one-on-one with someone.

And being a student therapist that very first session, it was like, this is the work I'm supposed to be doing. I'm seeing light bulbs go off. And it's just from, you know, me asking more probing questions and being a listener.

I can't believe that I'm paid to do this. It feels like such a easy transition for me to step into because I've always been doing it. I don't think there's a week that goes by without me sharing your posts with somebody who desperately needs your message. And I think probably the most frequent topic that I end up sharing on is boundaries, which I know is something you've been writing and talking a lot about. How did you get interested in boundaries? Are you somebody who struggles with them personally?

I struggle with them and I've seen many people struggle with boundary issues and talking about other people as these really big problem sources in their lives and how work is a problem and how social media is this, you know, demonic thing. And I think about, oh, my gosh, you know who is involved in all of these things? It's us.

We are the creator of how to use social media. We are the creator of how to show up in our relationships. Tell me about some of your favorite strategies for setting boundaries. And maybe to make this a little personal, what's a boundary that you've struggled with and how have you learned to navigate it? Mm-hmm.

One that I always struggle with is when you're in relationships with people you really care about, say your partner or a close friend or, you know, significant family members, it can be really challenging to say hard things. And we think sometimes, you know,

the way that we say it, it should be immediately received. When in actuality, we sometimes have to repeat ourselves. We sometimes have to adjust those boundaries depending on what's happening with the other person. And that can be very challenging. And so my biggest challenge is like, I've said it, now go do it, right? And that's not real. You know, one of the things I've been thinking most about recently is

how can I place boundaries for myself and not other people?

Because boundaries really are about what I am going to do, what I can do in the future. It's not always about this person needs to, because when we put it on the other person, it is really challenging to get people who want to do their own thing to listen. I have two small kids, and one of the things that I'm working through is the bedtime that they have is actually for me. Right.

So I can have more time in the evening. So the later I allow them to stay up, the more frustrated I become in my parenting and

And what I could just do is, you know, maybe send them to bed 30 minutes or an hour earlier. So they're able to get the appropriate rest. You know, we've discovered if they go to bed later, it's a punishment to us because they're still up at the same time. So it's like, why did we do that? What was the benefit? There is no benefit. It's like put

Put them to bed. That's a wonderful boundary to have with your kids so you can have that, you know, that time to watch your rated R movies and inappropriate kid-free movies and just these things that I want to do in the evening. And I'm like, I don't want to sneak to do them anymore. I want to eat candy too. And now I can eat more if you're not watching me. Yeah.

We love them. We want to say yes to them. And it's really hard to stick with that boundary. So how do you motivate yourself to stay with it? I guess is the first question. And then I also want to talk about how you communicate and enforce that boundary, especially when kids don't like to necessarily listen to it.

think about the last time that I was flexible with the boundary and how it turned out? I don't see this going in a new way. I see you staying up to 11, 1130, still coming into my room at 2 a.m. And then you being up at 7 a.m. So if I go ahead and commit to the boundary, I'm

I'll at least get a few more hours of rest and downtime. I think about it that way. I think in my house with summer, you know, you get a little more flexible with your schedule when in actuality, it's almost back to school time. So now we're going back to back to school hours.

It's interesting that you say this because one of the things that I struggle with is I feel like letting our kids stay up, it's going to be not only beneficial to them, but it's also fun for us. We like spending more time with our kids. And then I remember how miserable they are when they don't get enough rest and the havoc that wreaks on the whole house. I need to think about the costs of breaking the boundary, not just the benefits of breaking it. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, sometimes we do really get caught up in the benefit of, oh, my gosh, I'm going to spend extra time with this person or, oh, they'll be really pleased. And we're not thinking about our schedules, what would be really good for us. We live in a culture where we are unfortunately taught that we should not think about ourselves. So, like, just be uncomfortable about.

And don't say this to a person. Just be uncomfortable and allow this person to do this thing. There is so much guilt tripping around setting a boundary. It's like, it's the worst thing ever. I've had instances where people have been maybe mean to me and then you say something back like, that's not nice. How dare you talk to me like that? It's like, you just cursed at me in the email. I said, that's not nice. Yeah.

Not equal, not equal. So, you know, there's this idea that we should be able to do things without consequence. And as you stated, ultimately, if you don't get enough sleep, most of us will be cranky. You just pointed out something that's, I guess it's bothered me for a long time, but I never had vocabulary for it. The idea that somebody else can cross a boundary and then get mad at you for just gently pointing out that they crossed a boundary. Yes, yes.

We forget that as we are advocating for ourselves, that other people can have a reaction to that as well. We can't determine how people respond. So sometimes people saying something to another person, it's like, oh my gosh, that was rude. It's like,

because they said something, because they said no to you, I'm sure as an author, you get a ton of requests for, "Hey, I'm writing this book. Can you read it? Hey, can you blurb this thing? Hey, I have this new thing." And over time, I think your response to that gets a bit more firm. I find myself, now that I am in this space of being a social media presence,

advocating for people I assume to be very burnt out, like actors and, "Oh my gosh, I met so-and-so and they were so mean." I'm like, "Do you know how many times they probably had someone come up to them at dinner?"

Is that a consideration? I understand that this is your favorite person in the world. But what they said to you was, hey, I'm eating. Can you wait? That's not the worst thing to be told. You know, they really just wanted to finish their pasta.

I think it's fair to be able to eat while your food is hot. So if we could just be a little more considerate when someone is saying no, maybe they really can't do it. Maybe they really need to say no so they can have more time for themselves. Maybe this rule is in place because it's needed.

I love the way you put that. We've all had the experience of either getting a little bit more senior in our careers or having a wider community of friends and colleagues and just having more and more requests fall on our plate. One of the things I guess I've had to learn to do is to set up personal rules. And I had to do that in part because I wanted to help whenever somebody would ask for anything.

And at some point there were just more requests than I could possibly say yes to. And so as a way of protecting me against myself, I felt like instead of saying, nope, I won't do that. Nope, I won't do this. I would have to have rules. I don't do that.

And that way I could systematically have a consistent boundary as opposed to making all these one-off decisions felt sort of arbitrary. So you mentioned book blurbs. Whenever somebody reaches out now, I let them know that based on the number of requests I get, I'm only able to get to about 5% of them. And I have to have at least two months notice so that I have time to read the book cover to cover.

And I'm going to prioritize books by new authors that are in the realm of social science or psychology where I actually think I might be able to help them spread their ideas. And I felt so bad communicating that at first. And now I feel bad if I don't communicate it because I feel like I'm letting my family down. I feel like I'm letting myself down. And I also feel like I'm not being fair because I'm not sending a consistent message to everyone. Where do you stand on the idea of having a personal policy like that?

Personal policies are so self-honoring and good for your mental health. I think of it as a uniform for your well-being. It's just easier that way to just wake up, get your black pants, your white shirt. And there are so many areas in life, whether it's book blurbs or when you will help a friend move, the hours in which you're available for social activities, when you're

We need uniforms or rules or policies and procedures for so many different things just because it's helpful. When we talk about a lot of these boundaries that we set around things, it's really a self-protection of mental space and capacity. And that's what we forget sometimes. Like if you were to say yes,

to every single blurb, you wouldn't be able to do the other really important jobs that you have, like the things that actually pay you, right? Like you would have no time for that. And I don't know about you, but for me, when I say yes to something and I'm

It's coming due. And I realized like, gosh, why did I say yes to this? It is the worst feeling ever, but it's also a very teachable moment because in that I am learning the things that I don't like to do. I am learning new ideas for criteria I may need to have in the future.

I used to think that emotions had direct effects on behavior. So, you know, you get angry and that leads you to protect yourself or attack someone else. You feel guilty and that leads you to try to right your wrong or repair a relationship. But

I think psychologists have increasingly found that emotions have a greater influence on behavior, not by changing what we do in the moment, but by becoming teachable moments. And just as you're saying, you regret not setting a boundary. And then that becomes a lesson in how to make wiser decisions moving forward.

And so I wonder if one of the big messages of your work is to say when you have a strong, unpleasant emotional experience related to boundaries, think about what can I learn from that to reshape my policies moving forward? Yeah.

Yeah, often people will say, how do I know I need a boundary? Well, how do you feel when you do certain things? How do you feel? Because the feelings tell you when and where you need more boundaries. Like you don't have to do a boundaries inventory and go through all these areas of your life. Just think about the things you're currently doing, which things are unpleasant, which things cause you to feel anxious, which things...

make you sad or frustrated. These are the areas where you want to focus like what boundaries could make me feel a bit more relaxed, more free, more easeful. Because sometimes we think it's like,

If I keep doing the same thing, at some point I should feel better about this. We don't want to make the change of boundaries. We want this magical thing to happen when you feel better, where more time becomes available to you, where you can allow your kids to do some of these things without the consequences. And that's not necessarily realistic.

What's more real is you have to come up with some boundaries and actually stick to them. And that is the thing that will make you feel better, not this magical thing that will never occur. I'm curious about how you think about navigating boundaries in relationships where they conflict.

So I think about, for example, coworkers in different time zones where one person is a morning person says, I don't take calls in the evenings. And the other person is a night owl says, I don't take calls in the morning. And there's literally no time where they overlap or, you know, in a marriage where one person's boundary is never go to bed angry. And the other's boundary is never, never try to resolve a conflict when you're still angry. Right.

What do you do when respecting each other's boundaries means you just are not going to communicate? I think a lot of people say compromise, like figure out who the boundary is more important to and defer to that person. Not always easy. I sometimes feel like compromise is the art of making sure that both people are a little bit miserable. Oh, I like that. You know, that one is really tough and those are such extreme examples. But here's what I think.

How do we hold our own boundaries without imposing them on other people? My boundary is that I won't go to bed angry. I can't make you not go to bed angry. Right? So how do I hold my boundary for myself? I will not talk to people in the morning. You can call all these other people. Hey, you can even call me. I won't answer. So I...

I think that's more about being responsible for your own boundary and not feeling like other people have to adhere to that same protocol for their life. In the area of work, I would wonder, that's...

you know, it might be important to compromise. What are some other ways to communicate with a person who doesn't want to speak in the evening or, you know, that sort of thing. I think we have voice notes. We have emails. There are so many systems that we now have in place that could rectify that. But in terms of that old rule of don't go to bed angry, I think that can be your personal rule without it being the relationship rule.

I guess the next challenge that a lot of people run into is communicating boundaries when they're not in a position of power. I try not to work on nights and weekends. I have a personal policy of unplugging is a common example. But my boss loves to give me assignments at 10 p.m. and on Saturdays and Sundays.

It's really hard to assert a boundary when somebody else is in charge of you. What do you do then? Or how do you think about at least having that conversation? Upfront boundaries at work are the best boundaries. And sometimes...

we are not very clear in the beginning of what our boundaries are. When you go on vacation, it is best to talk about, you know, how you want to be vacated from work up front. That, you know, whatever comes up, I am unreachable. So even if you try to reach me, I don't see it. Like, because I'm not available.

One of the most freeing things that I've done is take my work email off my phone. I'm able to work when I'm in front of my computer.

If I'm being honest, I'm not sending anything well from my cell phone. I always say to people, if I send you an email, you don't have to respond until your time to work. So what could be really helpful for people who are bosses, who are leaders, who are in management positions is to allow people to have some boundaries and to not impose a constant work schedule on people because what we know is that

Having that time off creates better workers. People can focus more. They're more into it. So you don't want to take someone's vacation away. You don't want to disturb their family time or their time playing volleyball with their friends. You want them to do those things.

So you have to be vocal in saying, hey, you know, I don't mind working on weekends. But, you know, if you don't want to respond to an email, you don't have to. So there is a lot of communication needed to create a workspace where that is the case. And if you have people who are forceful about it, no matter what your position is, I think you have to speak up about that.

It's well established that psychological well-being is important for job performance. And my colleague Nancy Rothbard has found that when people disconnect fully from work, they have higher well-being.

It's up to people in power to not only encourage those boundaries, but even enforce them, right? Require them. You're also spot on that being proactive about communicating your own boundaries is much easier and more helpful than trying to do it reactively. I can imagine even having a conversation with a boss about, you know, this is the boundary I would love to set. I understand that there might be an emergency that

Could require my attention? Can we talk about what kinds of emergencies might come up? Can I figure out who might be able to cover for me in that time? And then, you know, if there's anything that truly would need me, you know, let's establish a protocol for how to reach me. And I will give a further recommendation there. When you are away on vacation,

please take the first day or two to adjust to being back to work. So change that date on those emails because what you will see is a flood of emails on the date that you said you'll be back and you're already catching up on all the emails you missed while you were out. So please take some extra time just to check emails, reacclimate to being at work before you move into, okay, let me get back into all of these projects.

A friend of mine wrote what I think is one of the best out-of-office messages ever. He says, I'm currently out of the office on vacation. I know I'm supposed to say that I'll have limited access to email and won't be able to respond until I return, but that's not true.

I'll have a phone with me. I can respond if I need to. That said, I promised my wife that I'm going to disconnect, get away, and enjoy our vacation as much as possible. So I'm going to experiment with something new. I'm going to leave the decision in your hands. If this is truly urgent and you need a response, please resend it to interruptyourvacation at mycompany.com and I'll respond promptly. If

If you think someone else might be able to help you, email the following person who will point you in the right direction. And otherwise, I will respond when I return. What do you make of that? I love it. You sent a newsletter a while ago about email etiquette. I shared it with so many people. Yeah.

Thank you.

We have so many ways to contact people. It's messages on social media, it's email, it's your personal phone, your work phone, all of the things. And we expect an immediate response. There is not a lot of grace given to people having a life outside of their inbox.

or having a world outside of work. And so when people send these emails that are not emergent, there is this expectation. I emailed you 10 minutes ago. Please email me back. I'll get people that'll email me and then they send me a direct message and say, I emailed you.

I'm like, oh, okay. Back off. Now, could it be a nice courtesy to, you know, send a reply message and say, hey, I got your email. I'll respond as soon as I can. Sometimes. But there are other times where that's not, you know, necessary. I think about.

We don't do this with other things. You know, like I get emails from Netflix and I get emails from my cable company. I'm not like, thank you for this email you sent me today. But we have this expectation that people will be like, you know, say something, say something as soon as you send it or say something back to me. And it's like sometimes a no response is a response. Like that is the reply. There wasn't one. Going back to the power topic for a second.

One of the things I've noticed is that sometimes when you feel like you don't have the authority to assert a boundary, you can sidestep a little bit by asking the person in power about their boundaries. When do you unplug? When are you unreachable? What kinds of requests are you unwilling to field?

And then almost like this strong matcher instinct of wanting to reciprocate kicks in and they'll say, well, what are your boundaries? And that opens the door. Do you consider that a little bit passive aggressive or sneaky or do you think that's a reasonable way to start the conversation?

I think it's a way to start the conversation. I think it can be helpful to know a person's boundaries. And if you like some of those to maybe apply some of them to your life or to say, oh, no, that sounds like maybe something I don't want to do. Boundaries is really based on our personalities. Sometimes people will ask me, what boundaries should I have with work? And it's like, well, it's really based on work.

what you want to do. There are no, like, these are the definite boundaries. I know folks who take vacation just to work because they find it to be very peaceful and quiet and they're uninterrupted. So to say you should never work on vacation, that's not a great boundary for everyone. On the flip side of this, there's also the question of sort of people's fear of unintentionally trampling on someone else's boundaries.

There's a lot of research that people are reluctant to ask for help because they don't want to damage a relationship or hurt their reputation or their image in the eyes of the person that they're seeking help from. This drives me crazy on two levels. One is that it creates an adverse selection problem where only then the shameless, presumptuous people are the ones asking. And those are the people I least want to help. The more you hesitate to ask, the more excited I am to hear from you. But secondly...

This really bothers me on the level of don't manage my boundaries for me is my reaction. I think in a relationship, other people should be free to ask and you should be free to say no. And if you don't give me the chance to consider your request, then I think that it's almost disrespectful because you're dictating what my boundary should be before I've even had a chance to weigh in on it.

How do you think about this dynamic of wanting to respect other people's boundaries, but maybe not being presumptuous in assuming that you know what they are? There is a huge fear among us of being told no. It feels like the worst rejection ever. And for many of us, we won't ask. We will suffer in silence because the fear is greater than the reward.

I think a huge part of that is therapy, like figuring out why hearing no is so hard for us. Maybe there was something in your past. Maybe there was a person who, you know, would never help you with stuff or I don't know what your story is, but there's a story there that you are constantly relating to around being told no.

We can say no. They can say no. And we have to get better at that direct communication and relationships, because if people can't tell us no, what we're actually creating is an environment where people cannot be honest with us.

I really am struck by how pervasive the fear of rejection is. I used to worry all the time about letting people down. Now that I've gotten in the habit of saying no, I want to tell anyone who gets a no that this doesn't mean I don't care about you. This doesn't mean I don't want to help you. It means...

I just have too many requests. A colleague of mine, Ryan, kept getting Zoom bombed by his kids. He has five kids. And he would set a boundary and say, I'm on a work call. Please don't come in unless it's an emergency. And then inevitably one of them would wander in. And finally, he said to them, OK, you know what? You can come in whenever you want. But if you come in during the call, you have to stay for the whole meeting.

And the first offender was his seven-year-old daughter. She goes in, she sits through the meeting, she comes out, and she warns her four siblings, don't go in there. It's really boring. Ha ha ha!

It's good for us to process being told no earlier because the shock of it in adulthood, I don't think it would be as harsh. It's like some of us are just not used to not getting our way in certain relationships. And I think that's because people have been very kind to us when they probably should have said no. Let us go to a lightning round. Okay. Okay.

First question, from one native Detroiter to another, what is your favorite thing about Detroit? Snow. I was going to say the Sleeping Bear Sand Dunes, but I'll take it. What is a book you think we should all read? Outliers. Worst advice you've ever gotten? There's so much advice in the world and I can think of nothing. I probably don't listen to people. This is the problem. I don't listen to any advice.

I like that answer. I think we can go with it. That's actually you practicing your own advice about boundaries. You're not assuming that somebody else knows what's best for you. I'm a skeptic about advice, I think. I'm like, don't go to bed angry. Like, why not? Like, what'll happen if you go to bed angry? I love this. A therapist who's skeptical about advice. Yeah.

Yeah, generalized advice, because I think advice should be tailored to the person. So when you ask that question, I'm thinking about things like everything happens for a reason, like that sort of thing where I'm like, that's not true. What is an opinion you've recently rethought? That people should know how you feel about everything. Right.

Sometimes we over communicate what we think and feel to the detriment of our relationships. There is a lot of internal processing that we need to do. Sometimes we need to journal. We need to talk to some friends, talk to a therapist before sharing everything that we think, because our perspective is not always the right perspective. But when we are in our heads, we like, I must tell them.

this thing about them or I must tell them why what they did to bother me. But, you know, what I've learned is sometimes we're just bothered because we're moody. You know, we just might be in the middle of a mood shift. It's not a thing that it would always bother you. So sometimes pausing before letting a person know something can be really beneficial for your relationships.

That really resonates. I've often thought about emotions a little bit like art. No artist frames their first draft. And oftentimes the emotion I feel in a moment is, it's a rough draft and I haven't revised it yet. So maybe I want to think about whether it aligns with my values and whether it means something important before I communicate it to somebody else. Yeah, when you mentioned don't go to bed angry, I think there are some things we need to sleep on.

You know, we need to sleep on some thoughts and some feelings before we share them with other people, even the anger sometimes, because maybe after we get a, you know, a night of rest, we'll find that, you know, maybe I was really angry about this thing. But there were so many other things that happened in that day that made me feel angry, you know, like so angry.

Sometimes we need to consider why we're feeling a certain way and not just, "This is how I feel and they should know it." Well, there are so many things that go into creating these emotional responses that we should just not let out immediately with other people. On that note, you have such a calming presence. It's not hard to see why you were drawn to becoming a therapist because you've clearly had this effect on people for a long time.

I also know it's not all something you're born with, and this is a skill you've worked on in your training. What's your favorite tip for maintaining calm? Quiet.

I think stepping away and finding, you know, some quiet weather outside. You know, I wake up super early because I want to sit outside and I want to hear the birds. There's a rooster. Someone has a rooster. That's a new thing. But just sitting quietly with our thoughts, with our feelings, not necessarily meditating. I don't think everyone needs to meditate. But I think just being quiet is

is a way of meditating. Just allowing, you know, other noises to capture the environment can be a really wonderful way to center yourself. You just made the day of this introvert who doesn't do formal meditation. Deja, what's a question you have for me? What's your objection to meditation? I don't necessarily have an objection. I get...

the experience of meditation through other kinds of activities. I feel like I meditate when I exercise. I experience it when I read.

I guess I've just never felt the need to follow a formal meditative practice. And then at some point, I got annoyed that meditation evangelists were judging me for not meditating. And then I felt like I had to double down and not meditate. I believe that you're already meditating, and it is the word that makes us think that meditation is one thing.

And it's all of the things that you've already stated. It is the exercise. It is the walk in nature. It is quiet. It is reading. It's doing a puzzle. It's also sitting and saying, hmm, it's all of those things. Well, that is a mark of mindfulness right there. So any closing words of wisdom on setting and maintaining boundaries?

Let your feelings be the guide. Sometimes we are searching for the tail. Like, how do I know? What is the thing? What is the thing that causes you to feel discomfort? What is the thing that causes you to feel guilt? What is the thing that causes you to feel frustrated? Those are the spaces and places that you need boundaries. And your boundaries will reveal what they need to be.

You don't have to do a lot of work to figure out, oh my gosh, there's this big problem. I must figure it out. It's like, you know the solution. It might be hard to admit. It might be hard to say, but it is the exact thing that you're more than likely already thinking about.

This has been such a restorative conversation, and I think you're going to help a lot of people set better boundaries. I really love the spillover effects of your work. The people who read your books and listen to your advice and follow you on Instagram, it's almost impossible to do that without knowing someone else who can benefit from it, too. So I love the fact that there's a butterfly effect of the wisdom you share.

Yeah. And hopefully in our relationships by following my content or reading these books that we don't just feel like we are the only beings that can have boundaries, that it's also for other people. So hopefully it makes us more respectful of

of boundaries. That's how we get leaders and managers and parents and, you know, everybody in the world to say, oh my gosh, like this person is stating a boundary. Like maybe I should listen to that too. The boundaries are not just for us. It's also for other people. Beautifully said. Such a pleasure to have you on Rethinking. Thank you for joining us. You're welcome. Thank you for having me.

What really hit home for me in this conversation is that we often hesitate to communicate our boundaries because we don't want to disrespect other people. But Nedra makes it clear that setting a boundary is not a display of disrespect. It's an act of self-respect. And if other people don't recognize that, they are not respecting you.

Rethinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant, and produced by Ted with Cosmic Standard. Our team includes Colin Helms, Eliza Smith, Jacob Winnick, Asia Simpson, Samaya Adams, Michelle Quint, Ben Ben-Chang, Hannah Kingsley-Mah, Julia Dickerson, and Whitney Pennington-Rogers. This episode was produced and mixed by Cosmic Standard. Our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Original music by Hans Dale Sue and Allison Leighton-Brown.

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