BTC207: Bitcoin, AI, Nostr, and Hardware Manufacturing w/ NVK (Bitcoin Podcast)
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You're listening to T. I. P. Hey, everyone.

welcome to this. Wednesday is released of the bit in fundamental podcast. This episode is brought to you by river.

The place that I personally go to security, invest in bitcoin with confidence and with zero fees on today is show. I have one of my favorite technical guests with code cards, founder and creator mr. N. V. K.

During our show, we talk about some of the super interesting things in the case building with A I, so people can train models with their own personal text windows without giving up any other data or security. Additionally, we talk about how noster continues to get more robust and important and digital identity and inner Operability with the coin and A I, amongst many other topics. This is one you surely want want to miss. So without for the delay, here is my chat with the thoughtful and V K.

Celebrating ten years, you are listening to bitcoin fundamentals by the investor's podcast network now for your host present pesh.

Hey, everyone, welcome to the show. Time here with the one and news. N V, K. Welcome back to the show, sir.

Thanks for having me.

He said, this is where I want to start, and this is gonna be kind of non standard, maybe not where people would expect this to start IT. You've been tinkering with A I, and you've been tinkering with IT in a way that I just find fascinating. I think IT just highlighted brilliance and how smart you are in the space and how you can kind of cover so many different things.

And i'm not saying that to try to embarrassing you or anything, but I really need you know that that so far from the truth, and anybody who knows you knows that so far from the truth. But very early on, I think you started tinkling with this maybe a year ago with A I and you started building out some interesting stuff online. And I think it's very counterintuitive for a lot of people that are playing with eye because they look at OpenAI at ChatGPT and they're looking at how much money they're plowing into this thing. I think they are what have they spent on all of their training, like over one hundred billion dollars or some of some absurd.

It's a razing is infinite money.

It's infinite money. And I think for somebody from the outside that doesn't understand A I, they look at that and there saying intuitively, they're saying there's no way anybody's going to be able to compete with them because of how much they're spending on training. And the argument or the case for that goes on on. But a guy like you and others that deeply understand A I are saying, oh, that's not how this is gna work at all and to explain what you've built, explain why that logic of we're going to throw one hundred billion dollars of training and therefore we're going to have the Better model is a false assumption, and then give a hand off to this thing that you're building because I think it's absolutely fascinating and just kind of help educate us in the way that only N V K can educate us in that you make things so easily acceptable and even other super technical yeah I mean.

well, thanks for you. Sure there as could be a hard follow up. So training models in in sort of like inventing the hard science of this large models, right? Language models cost a lot of money.

I mean, that part IT does cost a lot. You have this very, very large neural nets that you have to, like, have a lot of horse power to train on. You need a lot of data to put IT through. You need to light. There are a lot of scientists, lot of mathematicians, lot of statin ans like all of the people who Normally don't work at a start up.

Yes, so, but that's to build a model, right? Like think about the models is more like a car engine, right? Think to the so toyota has this v six engine, like these six, almost every car they make, okay, like from trucks to sports cars to off road vehicles, is the same six.

And then they would add a few other things, do IT and and make IT, make IT be so. So we've this large language models, you have mixo. You have a from facebook, you have GPT from opening eye.

There is a bunch, mark. So with this engines, you can create the appropriate machine, right? All he does, hey, I like, I think this letter comes after this letter to make this word. And these wings have like an incredible accuracy to make that happen.

So that sort of like basically how this language models work now they're not very smart, is just an engine, right? Like he doesn't have wheel, he doesn't have a chases, he doesn't have a purpose, right? Like you can rave an engine as much as you want in a little above engine and tasted makes a lot is great.

So what happens if you need to build up the tooling that comes around? And that's the stuff that makes you look like magic. And that's a lot of human made stuff, often impatient. And this truly includes stuff like a lane chain that helps you essentially you want to say the AI doesn't understand english yeah, okay, none of these models understand english, right? These are just vector map where, you know, I just understands that statistics, ally, these other point is here that's IT.

So when you create a model that now understands, like human topics, say, a translation, right? So like you want to transfer from this language to this language, the apples there and create IT has this statistical map of, like this word essentially is gonna be very close, this other word in this other language. And then with a lot of millions and billions and billions of points, he figures out of the the right neuropace to sort of like put out what he wants to to put out.

So anyway, so that's cool but then they go like, okay, can you please tell me what? Like, present head for breakfast yesterday. Like IT doesn't know, he doesn't know.

President, yeah, he doesn't know. Like how to figure out like what breakfast or or where or what. So what do we do? We go and we build something like, for example, where we teach how to access the database of tweet by present.

And that's just like a lot of code that we let the agent, the A I agent, access and run as a query on a database. So then he gets like all this sort of tweet by Price and talking about breakfast, right? And then IT effector, ized IT, what that means is that he transforms all the stuff into points vector man.

So that's the language that IT speaks. And then he goes like, okay, well, I have some context now that's called the context window. Any goes like breakfast, breakfast and english is like with a lot of the gobi there he comes off if like he probably had bao today because he talks about bagel all the time.

all the time. Yeah okay.

So that's the value that the people who are not building the models themselves, the engines, right? We're starting to build all stuff and and this other stuff is like, how do you embed all this context into the I model window, the context window, right?

So for example, every time you open a new uh ChatGPT window, write a new chat IT clears the old context, right? And it's kind of like a shame, but is a limitation of the technology because there is only so much context in with in bites, right, that he can stick IT into the model in one time. So IT has a limit, is similar to like a person, right? You learn your hobby, but you kind of forget other things.

There is only so much you can have in memory at a time. You know our context window is absolutely normous. The machines are not there yet, but there they're there yet for many other things.

So they can remember like they can have the whole wikipedia access table. And the models are trained in a snapshot in time. So what that means is that when you run that training and you essentially like massage and teach this thing to think IT is a snaps shot of data in time.

That's why A S are terrible trivia prev able to search the internet for things if something happened the day after the data set was used for training the day I doesn't know, so just assume so. So what we do now is we have all the tooling that goes and sort of like, but you let the I searched the internet, find the context and vector zed IT inputs IT into the system in that context that helps you answer questions, right? So what I like to say that you have the I galaxy brain, people write, building the models, and then you have the left curve apps like us building businesses and sort of like building the tooling around IT to sort of feed into the barn.

You use this term context window to basically have like specialized or updated. You are using me in my breakfast preference as an example. What your building is that would you categorize that as enhance context windows for individuals? Is that kind of how you would profit? What IT is that you're building to explain to people what you are?

okay. So i'm building unleased dot chat, right? That was born because I wanted to to do data analysis, right?

So user model to analyze my source called my company's business data and i'm not willing to give away the data to uh open the eye for free, right? Like I mean, they're going to just take your data, the terms of service, the data is mine now. So and I want privacy too, right? So you're going in company quite a com, right?

Like we do a lot of stuff that we don't want to just give away to the board. And so I went down the rabbit hole of like, how can you run this models privately? And a lot of people do this.

You end up running on your own laptop. But like, your computers are very limited in GPU memory, right? Like that's the difference between, like, having a million dollars worth of GPU in a farm, right, that they will specialized create for A I stuff, right? Verses like even the most expensive laptop can buy.

That context window is one of the first things that suffer. And you want the biggest context window as possible. yeah. So that's why like most phones, they're gonna have A I and things like that, they are onna, have a local sort of like a on device.

A little ship helps accelerate things, but for most things is gonna have to go to the cloud, go to the thing there in big space of servers and then come back. What we did is like, how can I make IT so as as private as possible for myself? Vers, the people working on IT inside the company? And also, we saw that people wanted to use this.

So like, okay, great. So how can we make this sort of like multitask? So like more people can be on IT privately, and it's not perfect, but we've got a decent amount of work into making sure that we can see what people we're doing and and there's other things we wanna you in the future.

But so your contacts is store on your local browser. We don't have IT in our servers, and that helps a lot. And always so. So the cool thing is things that I want to analyze our for simple time series data, wish to working on that part very hard to do time serious data with A I, by the way, if anybody is listening and is an expert on that, please hit me. I love to talk to you.

explain what you mean by time serious data for people not under stand up.

So time series data is essentially like, imagine roles on your next cell, right? And you have like a date or time and then you say, like stock Prices today this, and then tomorrow is that and then tomorrow, the day after. Is that right? And and like business data, ninety nine percent of the data at this time, serious data, right?

right? So that that is to me, in my opinion, about most interesting. And so but that's surprisingly hard uh, to build today for.

And we were working on that. And then there was a way to very quickly look at code, right? So analyze our code. So we built this thing where you can just put your github ripple and you press the button and inputs IT takes the data in and like, boom, it's like great to go and can do analysis on that.

And then I was looking in noster, right? Your familiar in noster, you had that you had a few noster folks to talk about IT before, is just this sort of like this centralized communication network that is great for many things like social media or markets. All kinds of communication is very cool, broader anyway.

So I would like, look at great. So elan has grown on twitter, and but I can access IT, right? That dinner is fully closed and that sucks.

So I was looking in answer and like, oh, the the social graph and the data is open. So let's see if we can build rock for that and surprisingly possible. So we index as much of noster that we can see.

And then we Victory zed, everything. And you have like life access to noster on that. And that super cool i'm in as things start moving folder into noster, right like noster ized, everything is a super powerful fig. Not just for like what did present have for breakfast?

I very big.

Give IT to be you know I get everything wrong x Better. Okay, that's a tasty one. And so we've naster parties.

I imagine when you have like people using for business and ask right on a public market or they have you know like advertising programs in there, whatever people going end up doing with that is just really cool to be able to query that live and have the social graph of IT. I think social graph s that kind of graph in large, which models they seem to really have interesting interactions. Yeah, you can discover a lot with that. So we're playing with that at at this time. Let's take a quick .

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All right.

back to the show. So mk, you said that you had built rock for noster. If a person is using noster, let's say you're on primal and they want to interact with this.

I'm assuming that millions a he wanted to incorporate access directly to the unleashed t chat and what you guys have done. And as for as indexing and vector ii zing all of this, that's something that he could just add as a button in there. IT would almost look like the crock on twitter and all that from a payment standpoint.

So you are ping a server that then taking your model that you've developed and it's you're providing that input and then it's pumping out and output with that cost energy to basically run IT through that model. I'm assuming you're paying with sats or the person that would be accessing this has a micro payment of one hundred sats to basically paying the server ren and utilized resources. Is am I describing this correctly? And is the vision, I guess, that i'm describing something that you think is going to play out for some of these clients that are hosting noster clients?

yes. So like extension brought that up. So the way we monodist unleased was like, how can we have honest sort of pricing, right?

So we just do taking time sets so that all that that means is they are like whatever we are paying for computation, even though we have the G, P, S, are located to ourselves. Try to do that as if he wasn't. We just charging that like, but just the ducks from your account.

However, because of noster, you can connect your account, and if you want, you can use d vms desert digital ending machine, so you can go through the U I, right right, like on maybe millions and attire to prime mode, and then you press button. But what's really cool is using digital, any machines. This is a very early working noster.

And what that means is, like native to the protocol of noster, you can post an event saying, can anybody translate this for me? And is a special kind of event. And if the unleased g chat digit of any machine sees that he makes an offer like I can do that, this is my cost, or can do do IT sort of like, you can do IT and say, IT costs this for you to see the result.

So you can not imagine how, instead of having A P I, that you need permission to use and other stuff is just my press translate in all of the sudden you don't care who did IT. Yeah, you create some logic. This is like, give me the best Price yeah yes. And and I don't like this, this, this one because they never did a good job. And I now imagine that for any kind of competition, this gets super interesting.

And what's interesting to the user is the privacy that they're also getting from this as opposed to, hey, elan, musk now knows the last ten questions I asked rock, and he has a very good idea as to what IT is i'm interested in and and what that is I want to be doing tomorrow potentially or whatever. So that's interesting. okay.

So let's say I was going to use unleash dot chat for not for like the AI clock use that we just describe, but let's say I want to take the last ten years of my emails. I wanted to train IT on how I draft, respond, the style, everything. So I take all of ten years worth of email data of the back and inside of my account.

And I want to upload IT into this unleash dot chat. I want to basically train a model on presence, email habits or whatever. And then any inbound traffic that I have an email, I now have a model that's giving me a really accurate response that I don't have to spend a lot of time doing. Is this something that is capable with what you're building or help walk us through like what some of the capabilities are for people that want to train IT on their data or then then have possession of the model and nobody else has access to all of information?

Talk us through that. So we do have apps, right? So if you wanna build a all that integrates that with your email, like that could be done. I can remember right now off the top of my head the size of the context window. So ten years of email might be a little pushing, but there is no reason why that can be done.

What would something like that cost for me to train IT on that much data? And I got a lot of emails over ten years. Would that be pretty expensive, hundreds of dollars.

What would I be if you know, I think like surprising enough, probably like between one hundred and one thousand dollars. Can I think maybe one .

hundred and one thousand?

okay.

And I D have to put IT through. I thought you, we're going to say one .

hundred thousand. No, no, no, no, no. So so this is a figurine like if you go to open the eye and you want to train a model on on your self, they will thinks about a million box and you'll before you the thing is that the result to be very similar to just having enough context to window.

So is IT with the context. Windows is essentially non permanent, right? So if you just reboot the the G, P, U, or get the context out of system, which we do after each run, but you keep IT locally.

that update IT with the next .

is a very similar result. So right now, what we're doing is we're using mixture, which is a really, really good model for many things. I don't think the context winter will be enough ten years of emails. I mean, i'd say like you probably have like a couple giga by worth of emails are to you get a lot of email.

There's not a lot of responses .

that this is our old things that like are like reasonably easy to engineer yeah, if there is a market for something like that, I mean, we shouldn't be hard to just put together that, that does that. But I think more more than the inputs of the emails is having the ability of creating sort of like like a hard prompt, essentially like you are helping the prompt.

So one thing can do is in the instructions like that of customer instructions, you can say, like whenever I say this, I mean that or whenever you think I like biggles for breakfast, I actually like this other thing for breakfast. Ict yes, benefit. So you can you can essentially massage the prompt yeah to have an inclination towards things. So for example, we had that dream of IT like you asked the the models about the the safety of some medication like IT doesn't use the data, is just outputs what the government asked them to say. So that's another interesting aspects of this whole thing is that when you are using the big models in those big websites, do you have to follow government guidelines in adventure to like if they .

want defunding?

Yeah oh yeah. Know it's I mean in a google that like made the ratio look. Somebody who is not supposed to be in is really bad.

yeah. And when this big companies released these models, what people try to do is a bit of a body beyond. They try to do, educate them from all this communist stuff and put them as in censored models, right? IT is not perfect.

And and so people should know that is a lot of companies out there to try to pretend their like their models are super bed or whatever, right? But you know, as all that they did, as they go there and they type with somebody ask about of answer this right? And then they look good on demos.

But realistically speaking, limits because the the actual fundamental part of the model was stop in a certain way. So even though the models can be in sensor there, still not quite there, it's OK. I mean, you can be productive, you can look for your path.

But anyways, so the models are improving. And um we wanted have lima try soon added to the system. We support different models. Different models are kind of Better for different things. And there is a lot still that can be done to make all this more productive .

for people that, you know, want to check this out unleased dot chat. Uh, this is what M V case building on the A I side. Super interesting stuff. If you have what is a time chain data experience and you wanna hit up in dm, i'm sure you d love to talk to more on that.

I have a question here on noster, but i'm going to push that till later on because I really wanna in the bitcoin IT appears that we might be on the cusp of a big ball run. And for people that that don't know who you are, you have the best, literally best hardware wallet on the entire planet. When IT comes to bitcoin, for people that are looking at the video, you can see some of them behind, behind and B, K, there. This is the question I want to ask you. What is the most frustrating security advice that you hear people sharing?

Oh, is that there is, the list is long and prosperous. What's at the top? The list of H. I? You know, you for most people using D I Y devices, I, they're, them screen themselves keeping seeds at home.

Terrible idea doing a two or two multiple c also idea using a node phone as a harder wall at, oh, that trigger me so hard. It's one of those things that we've been building now like you know between security for you know over fifteen years, right? Like not just like other companies.

And we got to a point where the security is amazing, like you buy a cold card for hundred and fifty box or like a treasure leisure, whatever, buy one of these devices and and you have like pintado on level security, the more actually we more because there's no backward. So like is way more security than even the pentagon has for private right. Like IT is IT is mind boggling.

And I think as we become more accustom to our security becoming so good, I think the conversation becomes more complacent because you just assume everybody knows, right? You assume that everybody has been around knows. And that gives some of like space to a lot of people who have not a lot of understanding of security to become like new security influencers.

And that much is the water big time. P. S, you know, the new people don't know the difference, right? That there is all this like security being built. It's not like they're following the big million list or reading the cold on their devices.

So it's a very frustrating saying to see like bad advice being put out because people direct right like people get act and people get act and then they go to everybody that bitcoin self custody is not safe and then you have a bunching of people holding etf and not real bitch as a bit in bag holder. IT is in your interest to have as many people as possible for being self custody. Their point safely, right? You don't want them to lose IT on a personal side. But it's also how coin remains secure and independent from government central banks.

I suspect that this is only going .

to get worse moving.

Yeah so if let's say somebody is from one of the big banks, you know there are one of these people like I am am just going to buy the etf, which your message to that person whose who has that opinion and they're just looking at like i've had a trading the account with new name IT for the last twenty five years. I've never had A A concern or issue with my apple stock not being there. I'm going to a buy I bit or i'm going to buy F, B, T, C. And you know, this is going to be like all the other stuff, and I D never have to worry about IT. What do you say to a person like that?

IT depends on my mood. And Normally I just go have a staying poor, but I always say this, okay, like biton has two propositions, right? IT has the debasement proposition where, you know, if you hold any kind of bitcoin, even paper bitcoin, theoretically you are protected against the basement, right? Your bitcoin is protected from government inflation.

And then there is the sovereign part of big, quite right, this poverty part of bitcoin. Make sure that bitcoin until the basement doesn't happen, but that's a different conversation. But what happens when the government says, you know, like we're going to tax bitcoin differently? And let's say you you really ept to the etf and you have like you know nine percent of your portable hole in betwen etf.

Now you have a coroner there. That's a problem, right? They can just take IT. What if the trading desk imagine most people have a treating this, but like, let's say, like a big broker goes under and then there is some issues and like both and some issues on those coupons. Es, so it's not ideal. And then there is the fact you are simply not you're not adding security to bitcoin. If you're holding that bitcoin on N T F, they are trading that bitcoin, they might be leveraging that backin and you're actually making that backin go dying Price.

I know IT sounds crazy, but if you are lending a bitcoin out, right, or if you are holding a bitcoin that is own by somebody else like a big fy entity, I guarantee, ed, they're leveraging IT or they're making IT available in some other ways to other people to trade against you, really because that's the only time somebody needs your asset is to trade against you, right? So if you take the bitcoin custody, you are essentially removing from the system and you'll making sure that nobody can sell or land out A, B, T, C. And and you are essentially making the supply smaller and you are making the Price go up.

So you one of the Price to go up before a backhoe person, right? So take the custody. Yeah.

you are one of the few people that I know in the space that's literally manufacturing hardware and doing IT in a successful, profitable way. I think for people that have never run a production line or dealt with supply chains, they don't understand how hard this is to do and do IT well and to do IT profitable and do IT for a very long extended period time like you have.

And I guess the question I have for you is in the stand goes, hardware is hard, which is pretty generic, but very true. What is IT that you would like to tell the audience about hardware manufacturing and maybe something that you learn that you didn't know before you got into this line of business? That's just interesting or something that is rarely discussed because I find the topi C2Be rea lly int eresting yea h I m ea n.

hard, harder is really cool. So there was a saying I can remember who said that might have been paul island. And if you're serious about your softer, you make your own hardart, right? And I I don't think you can be that interesting .

because that's a soft quote, right, right? That's really interesting because IT was more apple that you would have thought would have said something like this. This is paul. He was I .

know I have been that I I don't know.

I care you search IT.

but the thing is very few things you have to be a serious about, right, like the harder right, like when you have a private key on a device, anything goes wrong, money gone. yes. And there is no, there is no mulligans, right? It's not like a bank.

You can just rewind and you can use general purpose computers, right? So when you want to do something, you want more features, you want to make a pretty but the more abstractions and the more features in more things you add, the more complexity you add. And there is more cold there. They could have a bug, you could have a back door, you could have issues, right? So what we do in embedded harder is we try to make IT as simple as possible.

So we pick the extra chips we wanted use and that we developed the actual code, like there's on a cold card, like every single up code that were running on that trip as hours, like we wrote everything from very scratch and we picked and everything goes in this very sort of like simple, very bare bones package. And building a harder are outside of bitcoin. It's like you can take some liberty into like how you went to design and things on bitcoin is is this crazy universe where we have to be insanely here and I right? So we're thinking of what you made.

So the devices, how do you protect against? What if liver man opens the package? Yeah what if we get compromise? right? Like how can we protect the users against that? So there is protections for every little bit of these things and they're serious, right? Because we don't want to be compromise.

We don't want anybody to be compromise. So like how can we d risk every aspect of the Operation, right? And that's not very Normal for a hardware company.

Yeah yeah. Normally they can fix things with a software potaters, whatever. So we go into this like extra crazy level of security to do these things. And just because of the nature of bitcoin, we were able to do this.

If this was some system that needed to serve something else, we would never be to do the so bitcoin created as a simec of security, where you, with a design like hours, can have the same, same security for the Price that you can get. IT really is remarkable. And when he comes to harder companies, I mean, you learn and they like there is like especially two things that matter, right?

Like it's logistics and how close down, how much can you get to the bottom of the chip? How close can you get to silicon internals to write your formal right? Because if you control the whole stack, I sucks that you know stuck with that trip.

We have to rewrite everything in order to move to another one. But you control everything, every aspect of IT, right? And then you use your logistics new knowledge, which we learned true time, to make sure you have that specific chip in stock. Yeah.

consider lifetime buys. I mean, you don't really have to pay for replacement. Typically people would buy another device rice. You want to worry about that, I guess?

Um yeah yes, interesting. So what we do is we have like just very good relationships and actors and we pick families that if we did chip families, that if we needed to move, we could is just a lot of work, but IT could be done. So and we we have like good knowledge that unfortunately under india and stuff about like you know end of life of parts, it's very serious, right?

Like when you're talking to chip manufacturers like for real, like one of one not buying off D J key anything, there is assurances they can just change stuff. Imagine if they changed a chip and then like B, M, W can make because they have to change the whole farmer, like go. This was true to in of IT.

IT was insane, the motor car makers that shift their cars missing chips. I just like, sorry, you can have the functionality for the next year, what the trip later yeah, but it's pretty cool. IT is it's a lot of fun.

IT really did show you the dependency on chips. There is a fantastic book. I've mentioned this a couple times on the show called chip wars. IT just shows you the dependencies on taiwan pogram y process, like all of IT.

It's just and I think because it's such a specialized piece of manufacturing to create these chips and how expensive some of these ethnology phy machines are, I want to say some of them more like a hundred billion dollars just for one machine. And there's only one manufacturing, I think that is somewhere eut and hold that makes these things. There's just it's such a critical path to production and it's so vulnerable to disruption.

And when you understand all this and you see the us. Is interest in taiwan and china's interests in taiwan, you quickly understand why that such a conversation is because of all these dependencies on these ships and coveted, truly illustrated like how scary some of us can get if that supply chain is disrupted for you in your manufacturing of cold card. Is that something that ever got pretty scary as far as like receiving chips? Or is that something that you think about in the lots that you're buying in order to prevent that volatility or future volatility with things?

I mean, it's a little so it's always like a little scary. But at the same time, we have the scheduling and in the parts and events or harder and Normally playing a year to out. Yeah so so it's not then the world a first there was a typhon in asia, right? Like I don't know, seventy percent of that batch god moved like he went to the air plane to the wrong country.

Then they have to wait out there. So you get used to these things and you prepare for these things most of the time is just like, really like you just a cap acx problem. yeah.

Like, can you stop more parts? What you are talking about the time thing is interesting. Do you know how people say, like, humans don't build beautiful buildings anymore? I mean, it's just if we got bored of the buildings, now we are building like this catheters.

exactly. IT is the pinacle of human technology, is not putting rockets in space, is like making a tune onomea doped silicon little transistor, right? Like it's insane. I highly recommended people go youtube something, learn how these dies are made, like he really my bogin.

But now the most the same part of all this is that there maybe ten days out there that they know the problem, like the reason, and is because of those guys, yes, and really is just one guy. So I don't if people notice this, but like a few years ago, samsung, great. Like, oh, look, we have this amazing fab.

now. We are competitive. And then M, C goes like king on a second, the guy who invented the whole like a manufacturing process, because like having the attack in the paper.

S S one thing, like having that stuff yield in a factory flour is a whole different body. So the main guy that came up with the whole thing for two meters in for T S M C, they had to fall out. And he moved to korea to teach at the korean electronics. Biggest university there. And somehow within three years, so amazing.

Ah.

the last suits are amazing. Yeah, like there is a lock covered on youtube. But I can remember if I remember the name of the channel, there is a really good channel.

This is I think is like asian electronics or or like that. There is this guy and like he dives and he's just so good. This market is wild yeah in hardware, in like hard coral electronics, there's often just a few people to do.

The things facebook used to have five guys emerged a cold for ten engineers. Special light has three guys and is the most used piece of opens sort software out there. free.

B, S, D. Very few people as well. IT really is remarkable, like how much human technology depends on like one graveyard. Let's take a quick brick .

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All right, back to the show when .

you go from I am just ignorant on this. If you would go from like a six anoma ter chip down to a three anomie chip, is IT basically twice as fast, is the math make IT?

No, it's not quite like that. okay. The the speed is IT gets very complicated, like how to calculate the speed, but it's gonna a lot faster and a lot Better ah and also more efficient, right? Because we moved from making super big, super fast chips to making way more efficient chips. ARM did a lot of that work and and so it's a little .

walk IT might be a little bulkier, but it's still using the same energy, which is really kind of the main variable that people are concerned with because that's the costs around the machine.

Yeah just just think about like iphone. I mean, like it's insane like this thing, some of the most modern machines that exist and the power less more.

It's a big deal. Hey, let's go to this noster question. So i'm going to frame this in a maybe a strange way, but bear with me.

So you recently wrote an opinionated guide to sonus and put IT in a long form on primal. And here's what I finds a fascinating. This is just as elegant and just as useful as medium.

And now we're doing IT on oster. And primal has just rolled out the kudos to millions, his team, because they rolled this out for people to make long form post. You don't even have to have like a medium account and like get the publication.

I don't really know what the publication process is for medium, but now you can just do IT on oster. Anybody can do this. And so i'm reading this article.

Let me just read this start of this article. This this is hilarious. And this is nv talking about his opinionated guy dishonors.

One of my forest memories from this time was the Scottish bath, which involves standing against the sona wall execution style, so that somebody can spray with freezing water from a high pressure hose. I've never heard of this outside of south america. And kind of test to whether IT has any real Scottish origin.

This is just the start of this brilliant article, the due posted, uh, noster. The reason of bringing this up is IT appears that noster just isn't a twitter clone. IT appears that is becoming something way bigger than that.

I've talked about this with some previous guess. I mean, we have like decentralized to get hub via oster. We have now long form posts like medium.

We have A I agents like we were just talking about that haven't been fully integrated in the clients, but i'm sure it's coming soon. We have spaces level IT seems almost like the noster protocol is this skeleton and all of these other functions that exists today. And I even heard of some other protocol that's gonna to mimic youtube. Now that's going to be like almost pointed to from noster explained to the audience in european ion what is noster because IT seems like IT might be something way bigger or more than just replacement to twitter.

I guess, OK. So i'm gonna have to show the authorizing mini series that we're doing. Okay, because that's the is the audio thing, noaa ized the com because i'm i'm gna take a quote from fear, jeff, from there, right? And the most like the funnest and best way of describing nosters nosters just a bunch of websites.

Classic future, the effort of people? No, no. Is the inventor of noster, right? Is our so.

And what's fascinating about this view, this sort of a mental model, is that not sure is decentralizing the sense of that anyone can put a store in ray server, right, called the release. And what this is do is imagine, for example, twitter was a relay. Facebook was another really, and I don't know, linked in was another really.

yeah. Now imagine if you could see the replies between the two. So you know how companies post in all the the social media at the same time, there is a as to go, look, imagine if they are interconnected.

And one has maybe long farm posts, right, like because of your company blog on media. And the other one is more like twitter, right, like on primal. And then imagine if when you respond to a medium article, IT shows up on your feed, twitter feed, yeah, on the public square right now.

Imagine that when you have your post, your company post, you can now go and post on the public currency. I have a new post about my company, right? And all these things are fully like native intertwined .

yeah fully interactive.

exactly. You get the social graph. You now own your identity because is a key pair, just like bacon, so nobody can take that identity from you like you. If somebody turns off your master don, somebody turns off your twitter, your attention gone right, like you're building on somebody else's land and on, sure, nobody can take that away from you.

They they can disconnect you from their server and say, I don't watch my server, but you are identity is yours and you probably have that content like related by other release, right? So you can really be cancelled in the universe. You can be cancelled in that specific server, which is also like they should be free to do that, right? I mean, you maybe they want to host some kinds of so IT gives us this freedom where you have these relationships that are many to many, many to one, one to many, private to public, public to private. You can run a private, really. But then because it's native protocol with the public, when you can fox say, let's say, you build some tooling for marketing, right, like hot, sweet or something like that, you can have your hope company internally on a reay that pulls internally and comments on public post internally without .

the outside city IT. Yes.

and you can have all these things intertwine, right? So for except when you go highlighter 点 com and you highlight a quote from my sona article.

which me I think the quote I puled was pretty good .

IT is great for and then very true, but is very painful. And you post that quote on the twitter like use of noster on primal, it's the same protocol yeah and the data lives on both. So IT is so in short.

you think this is a long game that's just gonna continue similar to bitcoin. It's just gonna this ground of adoption that ten years from now people in the look can be like, so yeah, well, I was inevitable. But in the moment, especially early in the moment, you're kind of looking at him like what is this? I don't know if it's gonna catch on and then just more more people just continue to trickle in.

Can use IT in the because it's completely interOperable. The useful this of IT is like slowly getting Better and Better and Better. And I think anybody that was on noster a year ago to now concede that the performance is like day difference. And I can only imagine what another year or three years is going to look like as what's happening on there. Would you agree with that?

Yeah so like I remember bitcoin the very early days. It's like, what is this .

your and .

why does IT fix everything? Yeah, it's like, you sound like an insane person and we still .

sound like an saying .

people to know can only help people so far. But imagine electricity in the only days we're gona use this for everything. Technology doesn't grow like that, right? Like, yeah, IT takes time.

IT x IT takes both education and also tooling and U. X, to improve and go side aside. And even the people are in IT at the beginning necessarily know how things are gna play out or like why is going to be used for.

So you like it's hard for the skeptics to hear that these things sort of fixes all these things, right? Because there's ve heard at ten times already the technologies that fail and is hard for the people step in IT to understand that people not going understand IT. Yes, that's the norm, right? And for the people, the bacon ground six early days, like you already been through this once, so like it's okay.

We're gonna make IT. And with the master stuff, you're gonna start seeing the light switches go on faster than with bitcoin because it's social, but it's a social graph. The way like to think about is like for bitcoin is the medium of exchange.

But you can do that if you can coordinate and communicate a right, you have to discuss, bid and ask, that's right. And where does the government go? Not just the government, like every like monopoly, try to corn a market, whatever they tried to get in between the bidden and ask yes, and try to take a cut or block completely, right? yeah.

So when noster does to us is like you help us have like the freedom of communication sort of system where you can have a bit and ask if that is for the the market place of ideas or if that's for an actual like trade of a commodity or whatever, right? So when you're doing this, when you have this, not everything going on, you have this, this switch is going on in, for example, found ten F, M, right? Like there were A A two point zero thing where for the people they don't know essentially broadcasting, but they embed a public t there so that you can now do payments.

You can send messages to the host, super cool, very like it's taking the podcasting industry by storm kind of thing is just not very common on the main bigger podds yet, but is huge. Our pod does that like, and is super goods to get those s with sap is. And now F, M went and integrate and oster.

So they essentially switched their world garden content system for people to interact with the podcast to naster. All of the sudden, every single interaction that people have with my pot goes and shows up to the whole social work. Everything is now in the public square.

So you can just requote when somebody commented or asked a question and he shows on my social graph IT shows on the public square, then we imagine what that's done to other fans yeah like medium got kicked out of twitter. Sub stack got kicked out of twitter, right? So you can get kicked out of noster, right? So when people come over and they start doing those activities there, you're gonna have the same thing. So i'm looking forward to in medium or sub stack to convert your system into auster. And boom, it's open.

Yeah and then you ve got somebody that's incentivised to run more clients, right? If you're medium and you come the noster, you want to run your own client. If twitter comes to noster, talk us through this when you think twitter would have an inset up to take all the existing server racks, effectively turn them into release.

They're hosting all at same data that dave party been hosting and they're basically using the noster protocol. And it's like they're looking at the government. They're saying, hey, we're just one of many running a relay.

We can't control their speech. Where is backing up what's being said publicly? I mean, this is really kind of shifts the whole day namic of the company and the incentives and what their actual dependencies are for backing up .

communication. So close social media, any type, it's more like miles credit ard miles, useless.

Yeah yeah.

Like it's cool. Now, if you happen to be the person that can rack up a million miles, most people see miles is completely useless. why? Because is a close system.

yeah. bitcoin. Why is because in so valuable? Because is an open system.

yeah. So twitter is just miles right now. Now they open their system. Those notes would go, say, say, facebook as a to.

Now those notes cross the barrier and they can interactive each other in a way that creates a lot more value for everybody, grows the pie and there is a lot of fear in growing the pie, right? Because it's like, this is my data, this is my server. Yeah, the day comes with a lot of risk and that comes a lot of cost. Like I think do you think it's based .

on clock in their AI training that they are really had tend to open that up because now facebook can tap into all that data.

Is that I so in the early days of social media, right, like the way most of the social new sites hacked was like, oh, we know, press here, import of your contacts and we're onna, contact them, remember, friends are, or cut all that stuff, and then like, they would IT down. And then the previous company had IT goes, like crew, you like just stealing my users.

So, but this is the conceptual problem, is that my users, we are theirs, like our data and our identity are on by that. We need to move on from this to like IT is my identity, is my content and information wants to be free. And you can't stop this train. I would put IT.

It's just onna, take the awake ing of the user to reclaim their data and their security and .

all of these things. They can go back once you feel IT once you try IT is very difficult to go back. You know it's too early, right?

There's a lot to be build. There's a lot more people to bring over, but he already has. Like the divide is right. The technology is a really Better. You will probably haven't A, T, and and I was trying to create a twitter account for a product.

And what do you mean you need a phone number to create a and then I try to put a phone number and then I say, no, no, we really have that one for another account is like, I literally cannot create an account. Twitter, this is sam. He feels like a bank.

You have to go the bank, show I, D and do all that where on book you down the APP and you ready to hold the billion dollars in the right. The same is for that. You just go in any client and you create your key. Here you are master. And if the client doesn't like you or you don't like the client anymore, you you just take your private to put in another client and boom, all your stuff is there again, you can compete with this kind of efficiency is very difficult and all we need now is time.

Yeah, but I could literally talk to all day. I really appreciate your time. Anytime we have a chance to talk, i'd learned so much.

You're just saw a stood when IT comes to the technical hardware, software, everything related to bitcoin, all of IT, all the above, if you want to give people a hand off, obviously to cold card, anything else that you want to we were talking about unleash dot chat earlier. Anything else you want to highlight for people that don't know you? You're very active on twitter.

You're very active on monster. And you reply to people's questions very graciously with your time, sometimes very ironically with your responses. But is there anything else you want to buy hand people off to?

I mean, like listen, just try oster. It's happening and nobody stops that train and and then on the bitcoin S, I just get off the exchanges, get a harder wallet. Any harder wall is Better to know, harder to wallet, and get your coins of exchanges and know.

let's be free. People, yeah, alright. We have a links to all this in the show notes. N, V, K, thank you so much for your time. Always a pleasure.

Happy you. Thanks for having me, sir. Thank you for listening to T. I. P.

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