Real Food and The Science Behind Healthy Lifestyles with Darya Rose Ph.D.
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I'm your host, Chris Hutchins, and I'm excited to have you on my journey to find all the hacks. Before we jump into this episode, I just want to say thank you to everyone listening. This past week, we were nominated for a Plutus Award for Best New Personal Finance Podcast, and it's amazing to get that kind of validation for the show.

To everyone that voted for us, thank you so much. And if you haven't already left a rating or review in the podcast app, now would be the perfect time to do so because I have a feeling there'll be a big part of how they choose the winners.

Okay, with that out of the way, I want to jump into today's episode because it's going to be fantastic. I'm joined today by Dr. Daria Rose, and we're going to talk all about food and the science behind healthy lifestyles, including what foods to eat more of, how to cook them so they taste better, how you can actually lose weight without giving up everything you love, and plenty of hacks for everything along the way. Daria got her degree in molecular and cell biology from UC Berkeley and her PhD in neuroscience from UCSF.

She's the author of Foodist, Using Real Food and Real Science to Lose Weight Without Dieting, and the creator of the award-winning blog Summer Tomato, a site that Time Magazine called one of the 50 best websites. Finally, she's the host of the incredible new podcast, The Daria Rose Show. So without further ado, I hope you enjoy my conversation with Dr. Daria Rose.

Daria, thanks for being here. It is my pleasure. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So I just want to jump in and get your take on what do most people get wrong when they think about food and dieting? Well, I think there's a general misunderstanding that diets somehow work. And

This is an understandable thing to be confused about because it really depends on the timeline. So for the short term, you can get pretty much any diet to work, right? You can do vegan, you can do paleo. I mean, if you're paying attention and you start something new and you're motivated, like it's pretty easy to lose weight for a few months. The issue though, is that in the longterm, um,

95% of diets fail. And I'm not just throwing that number out there. That's the actual number. Like the long-term success rate is low. And in fact, having a history of dieting is a predictor of weight gain. So in fact, dieting is a better way to gain weight than to lose weight. I mean, decades of data that show this. The best...

data set of people that we know that have lost weight and keep it off. It's the National Weight Control Registry, I believe it's called. And there is a group of people that have succeeded. And it's just a small number. That's why they're studied so thoroughly. Wow. And when I say long term, I mean, like three years, like if you if your thing has worked for like three years, you're in the top 5%. Wow. And so just to get a little bit of your background, how did this become an interest of yours? How did you become so knowledgeable and passionate about food and everything?

Well, I grew up, I might date myself here, but I grew up in Southern California when Baywatch was really popular and my mother was into all the things. She did the full Orange County mom business. And so I just grew up around it. I thought that's just what women did to be normal. And it's tragic. I know a lot of women and girls who grew up that way.

But, you know, it's horrible. It's a horrible way to live. You're constantly depriving yourself. You're constantly unhappy. You're never satisfied with the food you eat or how you look, which are two big factors in life. I mean, those are two things that have a lot of impact on your quality of life. And the other side of my life, so that was always just kind of going on in the background of existence. And then when I got to college, I realized I really loved biology and I really loved neuroscience. And I actually...

I developed the skills and training to be able to read scientific papers. And actually, it helps to even be on a university campus and have access to the scientific papers because they're not generally accessible to the general public. And it's hard. It's a lot of many years of training to be able to actually read those papers. And that was when I realized that I didn't have to rely on like glossy magazines and diet books to figure out how to do this. I could do it on my own. And so I just

I literally spent an entire year just reading papers about how to be healthy and keep your weight in a good place. And it just ended up being astounding to me what I learned. And it totally changed my life. And then I felt like I had to tell everybody about it. Yeah. What were a few of those astounding things that you picked up along the way?

Well, the big one was the dieting thing. It's like I knew that like I knew that the diets didn't work for very long. But I don't know, for some reason, it's I kept trying like doing the same thing over and over again, being crazy. And so that was a big one. Like the research is overwhelmingly convincing on that there's no room for debate. I was literally doing the wrong thing. And the other thing I dug deep into the research of because I got frustrated. I was like, okay, it sounds like it's impossible to lose weight. But the

The other question I had was, well, what about people who'd never have this problem who are always healthy and always been their entire lives? What do they do? And it turns out what they do is not, doesn't seem very special if you just look from the outside, but on the inside, it's,

What they do is they have dozens of little habits that just sort of keep them in check, whether that's they walk a lot or they cook at home or everybody can have different ones. It doesn't have to look the same for everybody, but healthy people tend to have a suite of habits that they use to sort of keep themselves in check and healthy.

It's really that simple. And it was very confusing. I was expecting to find something like, oh, you can't eat carbs or oh, you need to fast for a certain number of hours a day. I thought there was going to be some trick because when you read a lot of diet books, you're kind of prone to thinking there's going to be some special trick, but it's not. It's very boring. They cook vegetables and eat them. And what do you think causes people to believe that these diets will work if there's all this data that shows they won't?

A lot of marketing money is in this industry. I mean, it's a multi-billion dollar industry. And there's a lot of money to be made by making people feel bad about themselves. And a certain vision of beauty is projected in the world. And people are desperate to get that. And then the other big thing is, like I said earlier...

All diets can kind of work for a little while. So it gives you this false sense of, oh, if I just keep doing that, it'll... The problem's me, right? Like, I just failed. Like, if I just kept doing this thing, it would work. And that's just...

That just goes against everything about the human mind and how it works and how your body works. So you think you're failing by not sticking to the diet. But in the reality is nobody can really do that. Nobody can torture themselves indefinitely and expect to magically like come out the other side happy. That's just not how the human brain works. And.

It's kind of remarkable when you think about it. Yeah. And so is the reason that any diet ends up failing just that people don't have, I guess, the willpower to keep it up? Or why does it fail? So that's part of it. It's...

Usually what will happen is people will find shortcuts. They're like, well, I can't eat carbs, but all these low-carb energy bars are fantastic. They'll start finding ways to actually eat a bunch of processed food that isn't good. You start being really good, only eating chicken thighs and broccoli and salmon, but then it sort of morphs into something less good. But also sometimes even people that are able to mostly stick to it

Your body compensates. So you can't really do the same thing and expect it to keep working. You have to change your life around it. And you have to kind of go the other direction. Yeah. And so, you know, you read all these research papers, you learned all this. Ultimately, you wrote a book. What kind of was the desire to make that move in your life? Well...

Before that, I was running a website called Summer Tomatoes, basically my blog, and I was writing articles. And I just really wanted to put everything that I'd learned together over a decade of doing this work. And what I really wanted to convey with Foodist, my book, was...

If you are a dieter and this is something you've struggled with for your entire life, this is a way you can go from that to being what I call a foodist, which is somebody who...

uses food to make their lives better and happier and healthier, which is sort of the opposite of a dieter. A dieter uses is like a food is their enemy. Like you're constantly trying to prevent yourself from doing things like for me, food was the biggest source of anxiety and struggle in my life before I made this change. And now it's like my favorite thing in the world. You can ask anybody. You can ask you.

I know. I've been fortunate to eat meals with you and food around you is always wonderful. So I want to dig into this whole idea of being able to find a different way, have a different relationship with food that can be way more, I guess, enjoyable than restrictive. Is there a foundation for doing that? Yeah, there's a few. So, I mean, on the just practical level of what to eat, that's sort of the first step. And my piece of advice there is to...

Get away from processed foods as much as possible and have most of your food be about real intact whole foods that you would find like in a garden or in the produce section of the grocery store or in the butcher section of the grocery store. Real food ingredients, basic ingredients versus packaged things.

That's step one. And obviously, we all have moments where we're out and we need to do convenience things or it's a holiday. You're at the movies with your kids for the first time in two years. You want to just have some stupid M&Ms. That's fine. But I'm just talking like the bulk of your day, your breakfast, lunch, dinner, five days a week type of thing should be focused on real food. And then there is a whole psychology around interacting with that real food and

making yourself want it more than you want the processed stuff. And there's an art and a science to that as well. Yeah. I mean, let's start with, so is it, it's just packaged foods, but are there other things about this kind of real food concept to dig into about what they are, how to pick them, things that are important? Generally, you want to just start with raw ingredients. And I, it takes, it's a skill to be able to cook, right? And that's intimidating for a lot of people. But yeah,

But real ingredients are kind of pretty good. Like you just take some broccoli, as long as it's like a decent kind of broccoli, like you found it somewhere and doesn't smell like mildew or something, which sadly, a lot of broccoli at grocery stores does smell like mildew. But if you find a decent piece of broccoli and you heat it up in a pan with some olive oil and some salt and some garlic, it's going to taste pretty good if you just kind of don't make a lot of errors. So I would generally...

people start there. Eat more vegetables. I think one of the biggest mistakes people make is when they're trying to get healthy, they think they need to eat less of things. I encourage people, don't start there. Start with adding. Adding these foods to whatever else you're doing until it becomes more natural. Then you can add more or then you can start thinking about what to remove. But start by adding. Most people just don't even know how to eat vegetables. They're like, they've lost this practice. And so it's something that people need to learn. And what do you say to those people? I've certainly, I remember one time we had a tenant in our house

And we were like, you know what? We should get to know this guy. Let's go out to dinner. And he was like, yeah, I don't eat vegetables. I was like, what? You don't eat any vegetables? And I feel like I had nothing to say other than like just pure shock. But I feel like if you were at that table and you met this person who was like, yeah, I just I've never eaten vegetables. I never liked them. What would you tell that person to kind of open their eyes up to what vegetables could be?

Well, that's a fantastic question. I've done this with more people than I can count. The main thing I want to do is feed them because my deep held belief is that people don't like vegetables because they haven't had good ones or the texture or something is just so outside of the realm of experience that it feels weird. And I 100% believe that you can learn to like foods that you don't like. I grew up a typical...

California kid. I ate some vegetables, but I didn't like... I wouldn't say I loved vegetables. I definitely hated spinach, Brussels sprouts, lima beans, all sorts of things. I just had the cilantro, eggplants. I hated them. I hated them. Beets. And when I changed my approach to food...

I started shopping at different places. So I really realized that I really like the food at the farmer's market because it's in season, it's cheaper and it tastes better. And because it's grown by people who really care, not these giant industrial farms. And one of the things that was most profound to me was that

when you buy food in season, when you buy food that somebody cares about, it tastes different. You don't really know what that tastes like if you've never had it before and you need to try again. And it didn't always work the first time. Sometimes I'd try cucumbers and I'm like, no, these are still not good. But eventually I figured out a way to like everything. I can honestly say that I like all vegetables right now or all foods in general. I mean, and I'll definitely try or eat anything. I would never just...

like categorically say I don't like something because I know that's just that's just my perception of it. I can say I have never enjoyed this, but I'm open to the fact that it's possible. Yeah. And one thing that you said that I thought was interesting was go to the farmer's market stuff and season that makes sense. And you said it's also cheaper. And there's a theme to this show about saving. And I think there's a perception and I would say I even have it sometimes that going to the farmer's market is like so boutique all these little shops like is it going to be really expensive to

Is that not the case? Yeah, actually. And so there's a big exception. And that exception is fruit. Fruit at the farmer's market is really expensive. But most people, since they're kind of vegetable rookies, they go there and they mainly see the fruit. And they'll see these like $4 a pound peaches. And yeah, that's expensive. But you buy one of those peaches and you eat one of those peaches and you're like,

holy shit, this is the best peach I've ever had in my life. I can see why this is $4 a pound. But right next door, there's the kale and you can get two bunches for a dollar. That'll feed a

a lot of people for like one or two meals. And so my experience is the vegetables are actually quite comparable in terms of price. Ripe fruit is very delicate and heavy, and it's a lot harder to ship. That's why the stuff at the grocery store isn't good. It's bred to be hard and firm and like withstand a lot of travel and being banged up.

And it's just, it's different. So yes, if you go there and all you want to buy is fruit, you're going to be like, whoa, this is expensive. But for the most part, I think if you go to the farmer's market, knowing I should be shopping for vegetables, you'll find incredibly good deals. And when I was a grad student in SF, I was like literally living in SF on less than $30,000 a year. And I would, I shopped there exclusively. I mean, I didn't eat a lot of meat. That's another thing that's expensive. But, you know, I got,

Great food. Really great food. Yeah. And so, okay. So in season, yeah. Organic food in season, cheaper. Great. When you said knowing how to cook it, are there tips on how to cook these fresh foods that make it easier for someone who maybe isn't used to cooking from scratch? Yeah. So there's a ton of little tricks. I taught myself really to cook and that makes it really fun because you do, you learn these little tricks that...

You're like, oh, if I would have just known this before, I would have liked stuff so much sooner. So like one example of a mistake that I see people often use, they'll put food in a pan before it's hot. And like, that's just like, you don't want to do that. You want to heat the pan first, then put oil in it and then put the food. So when it sizzles, when it gets there, so you can get that crisp in there. Also, people often put way too much in the pan and it gets overcrowded. So instead of browning and making something crispy and yummy, it'll steam it and make it soggy. And that'll

really like kill the texture and sometimes even kill some of the flavor because it'll get overcooked but never really brown and that's no good. It sounds like you could fix that with just a bigger pan. Yeah, a bigger pan or cooking in batches. Yeah, exactly. People often don't use enough salt which is so ironic because people think salt is bad for you but if you're cooking at home it's you're using literally like six

75% less salt, even if you like go to town salting your food. It's like really hard to over salt your own food. So if something doesn't quite taste right, try a little more salt sometimes. I mean, and don't do the whole batch. Like take one little piece off and test it and taste it. And if it tastes better, then you're on the right track. Honestly, I really recommend Samin Nasrat's book,

salt fat acid heat I think for like a priming and cooking skills you can't beat that book because sometimes you just need a little bit of acid you know sometimes you just need a little fat in there to fix it and and that can really take food that you are not very excited about and make it amazing and you're like wow I didn't even think I had this in me I never wanted to be a cook but now I can cook

cook. Yeah. And it's surprising. I mean, I know I've learned this both from you and others that, gosh, a plate of fresh vegetables from the farmer's market just easily cooked in without much work can be delicious. Like we often go to the farmer's market, make some rice, make some fresh veggies, mix them together, salt. There's not a lot of ingredients. It's not that hard. And it's fantastic. And so I was blown away. That probably cost $2. I know. Yeah. Rice is not an expensive thing.

But rice is a carb. Is that okay? Do you feel like carbs are like fresh rice that's good quality rice? Absolutely. Okay, so one of the most important things that you can do psychologically is never call any food good or bad. Okay. Every food has value in some way. Some foods are worse. Even a Twinkie.

Yes, in the right setting, a Twinkie has value because maybe it has nostalgia. Maybe it's a special moment. I don't I don't know what you're I mean, I don't think you should eat Twinkies for breakfast every day. But I don't even like Twinkies. I just think of them as like the quintessential worst food.

I mean, in some ways, it's one of the least healthy things you can put in your body. My point is that health isn't the only reason we eat. And again, there's like the psychology that goes on. If you tell yourself a food is forbidden, you are just setting up a whole dichotomy that will set you up for failure because all of a sudden it becomes a reward, right? If you tell yourself something's forbidden, suddenly you can earn it if you're good enough, right? Like,

And that can make you want it more. So it undermines. So I discourage anyone from thinking carbs or meat or fat is bad. Like, that's not true. You can make a more healthful choice or you can make a choice for a different reason, like pleasure or something social or a bonding experience. There's a lot of good reasons to eat. Yes, I would love and encourage you to choose health a lot.

And on average, you kind of like think about like the 80-20 principle. Get your basic meals right. Like the weekdays, they're always kind of the same. You're not going to work. Breakfast, lunch, dinner and weekdays. Nail those. And then you can have some pancakes on the weekend and you're winning. You already won.

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And for people who are thinking about this as an alternative to a diet, maybe you've been a little unhealthy the last year and a half. A lot of us have just been at home, maybe not getting as much exercise, being as healthy and feel like, I know I do, like maybe I could lose a little weight.

Is this an approach to that? Or is this just a new lifestyle? Or what would you say to someone who's like, I probably need to lose 10 or 15 pounds right now? It's a really good question. So I would encourage you to just try to focus more on vegetables. I mean, it's funny.

You can even eat a pretty rich salad. But if you're eating a salad, you're going... No matter what, I find myself losing weight if I just focus on eating more vegetables. But it's just one of those things. It's like, okay, if you've gained a little weight because of COVID or whatever, and you notice you've maybe been eating a little more ice cream or whatever, I would say don't... Yes. So an obvious thing you can do is eat less ice cream. Right? That's an obvious thing. Or pizza or whatever your little indulgence is. But...

And I don't want you to say you can't have it, but just try to be more mindful of how often you're doing it.

If it's come to the point where you're doing it two or three times a week, cut down to one. So it's not zero. Maybe it's even every other week. I don't know. And then watch your body and listen to your body. There's no right answer here. And maybe for you, you're like, no way in hell I'm giving up my ice cream. But I don't really need that toast. So you pick what matters to you and be mindful of both quality and quantity. And just kind of keep tabs on those things. I mean, if you're just...

If you just sit down at any meal and kind of eat whatever's in front of you, it's going to be really hard. But you do have to sort of think and plan like, how am I going to because you want to eat enough healthy food that you feel good to when you have energy and you're not tired. So you sort of have to think about your life and think about what you're doing and how much energy you need and what your weight goals are and what your health goals are and, and taper. I think the biggest one of the biggest things people do is they go they go like, all in on one thing crazy. And I just I don't think that's a recipe for long term success.

Yeah, we've been very happy with meal planning and kind of mapping out. Okay, these are the things we're going to do this week. Let's buy the groceries that make this possible. And we end up not bringing home as many things that like, like, it's almost hard to fall into a bad situation if you don't have it in your house. And if you've made a plan.

But if five o'clock rolls around and you're like, oh my gosh, what is the plan for dinner? We haven't prepared anything. I feel like I would just fall into a panic mode where I'm like... Yeah, you just take out Thai food, of course. Yeah, of course. That's delicious. But yeah, what about when you're out and about and you're ordering carryout or you're at a restaurant? Is it just a disaster? Are there ways to make it better? Yeah, great question. So yeah, if I find myself at sort of a mid-range restaurant where I think the food's going to be all right...

I like nothing that is particularly special, but I need to get some food in my body. I will definitely be super careful to make sure I order a lot of vegetables. So even if it means ordering a little extra and spending an extra like six bucks on the appetizer, that's a lot of vegetables. I always do that. I make sure I eat it. And then I try to be mindful of what I'm ordering.

I avoid words like glazed, crispy, because it's really easy to get tricked into eating like 2000 calories in one meal at a restaurant like that if you're not careful. And if it's not an amazing place that you're like, this is a once in a lifetime thing. I've been saving up for this for three months, you know,

That's not really worth it to have something really bad for you. So I try to make meals like that as healthy as I can. My trick is I find that if I'm at a restaurant, I'm looking at the menu, I end up on like the thing that's probably glazed and crispy. But I'll look at the menu at home, like maybe right after I had breakfast and I'm not even hungry. And I'm like, you know what? When I go to this restaurant, I'm going to order this chicken salad.

right? And I'll decide what I want before I go. And it makes it so easy. I get there and I'm like, I don't even need to look at the menu. I know what I'm going to order. I don't need to get distracted. And I kind of plan that in advance. It sounds a little ridiculous. Maybe a couple drinks in, I might change my mind if it's one of those dinners, but that's been really helpful for me. I think that's brilliant. Actually, the more you can plan in advance and make decisions before you get hungry, the more you're going to win.

Yeah, because you may nobody who's hungry makes a good decision. Yeah. And that I assume that's also true at the grocery store. Absolutely. Like you said, like, as long as you can keep the bad stuff out of your house, you're way, way, way, way less likely to get and look at me, I just said bad. It's really hard to just train yourself out of the same. But yeah, keep things in your house that are healthy and that you want to say that you ate. And it'll be a lot easier.

Yeah, the last time I hung out with you in person, I noticed that after dinner, you had this like really great dark chocolate.

And it had me thinking, gosh, sometimes after dinner, I just want something sweet to finish the meal. And I was like, man, if I just had that, that would substitute any other thing. But instead, our au pair loves Oreos. And I was like, instead, I have no dark chocolate. I just have a box of Oreos. And both would have been fine. But I only had one of them. And so I made the wrong decision. Yeah.

Or I made the only decision. But it sounds like you analyzed it and you figured out why. So you have the opportunity next time to make the right decision.

Yeah. Yeah. Are there other things for people who have that sweet tooth, which I would say I fall into a trap of less self-control around a batch of freshly baked cookies or walking by or in a donut store? Like what are ways to either kind of get over that desire or sweet tooth? Let's start there. And then I'm also curious if there are things that kind of fill that void that are better choices.

Yeah. So one thing that I found to be very true is the less you eat it, the more you crave it. So I used to consider myself a sweet tooth and I always had to have something after dinner, especially if I had a lot of garlic. For some reason, if I have garlic breath, even if I brush my teeth, I kind of just like want some sugar. But that has just faded and faded and faded over time. And it's a lot less desirable to me now, which is fantastic.

So that's one thing to consider. The other thing is that there's dark chocolate is fantastic. I like sometimes it's it's kind of calorie rich, but it's not I wouldn't say it's bad for you. But I like dark chocolate with a scoop of peanut butter on it. And that's good. But I'm also I have like so I'm a weirdo. Like I said, I don't like that much sugar these days. But I do one of my like biggest indulgences that I'm a little bit embarrassed about.

is I pay a sort of ridiculous amount of money to get fruit shipped from California to my house in Oregon because it's so good. It is just so freaking good. These, these pluots, they're called flavor King pluots and these peaches from frog hollow farm. I, I buy them and get so excited to eat one after dinner because they're so delicious and they smell so good and they're just like worth every penny. They're so good.

Yeah, one time my parents used to live on the East Coast and they came out to visit and we went to a farmer's market in Oakland. And my mom's like, what is a pluwa?

Like, a pluot, I would say, at least growing up, I'd never heard of a pluot. And up until that farmer's market, I hadn't even ever heard of one either. And we tried it. We were like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. Obviously, me living in California, my sister living in California, we're really big drivers. But I think 20% of her desire to move to California was the fresh fruit and like pluot specifically. So...

I think you would enjoy time together, enjoying fresh fruit here. You talked about the group of people that actually were able to keep weight down and naturally, and they had a lot of habits. Are there habits that you think people can adopt to start to make this easier, both eating healthy and just kind of living a more intentional lifestyle? That's a good question. So there's two big pieces. One is around movement and one is around food, right? So with movement...

There's this thing. Formal exercise is fantastic. If you enjoy it, that's great. And I do think people should do it. I think that no matter what your health status, everybody should do a little bit of cardio a few times a week and do some strength training just for aging. I mean, you're just not going to get a better bang for your buck for staying alive and mobile until old age. And it is like an amazing... It helps you sleep. Amazing source of endorphins. But...

The amount of energy that you can use just doing normal daily life stuff, people massively underrate that. So people tend to have habits of like taking the elevator, sitting on a bench when waiting for something. Like I would just encourage people to start looking at those as opportunities to move and be active. And so I almost never sit if I'm waiting at a doctor's office, like I'm the one standing. Well, it's much easier now with COVID because I'm like, oh, I'm going to

get a disease if I sit there, so I'm not going to touch anything. But, you know, maybe we all have a little bit more of these habits now. But just try to be thoughtful about just try to be active and get your kids involved, get whatever like, well, like recruit people actually like moving people. Forget that. But moving actually feels really good. Before you go to the next one with regard to COVID, I feel like video meetings have taken over. And now there's constantly meetings that could be phone calls probably were phone calls in 2019.

And now they're all video meetings. And as much as I enjoy getting to connect with people's faces on a screen, I feel like I've lost a lot of the ability to take a walking call or a walking in-person meeting. And so I've been pushing back. Someone's like, oh, here's the video call. And I'm like, actually, let's do this as a phone call and go on a walk.

and it's been hard during COVID because everyone wants to meet on Zoom or Skype or something. And so I'd say, if you don't feel like you get enough time to do that anymore, just push back. Say, hey, we don't need to do this on a video call. Let's do a phone call. Or just most of these have ability to dial in. I'll just dial in and say, hey, you don't need to turn your video on. I'm just here on the phone. Totally. Yeah, Kevin's been doing that too. My husband is smart. So movement and...

And so on the food front, like I said, the first thing I recommend to people is eat more, eat more vegetables. Like it's so much easier than a don't, don't, don't, don't. I mean, if you don't know how to cook, it's one of the number one skills you can develop in life. And I would say start small and pick a meal. Maybe breakfast is easy. Maybe start with breakfast or figure out ways to cook. I say having a schedule around the grocery store is

is really important to like working that into figuring out when that's going to happen, what it's going to look like. I'll rearrange my whole week to make sure that the produce I get is good because like I was saying earlier, like,

I want to love what I eat. And even if it's just my Tuesday night dinner. And so I will go out of my way to make sure that the salad mix I get is delightful or that the carrots I'm going to cook for my kids are sweet and tasty. So they actually want to eat them. So it's not something that we have to fight over. It's something they love. And so for me, I spend a little extra time, energy and money on finding the best foods available.

And make sure that that's not negotiable on my day. Everybody knows I can't take meetings on Tuesdays in the afternoon because I am grocery shopping. So there's just... Things like that are really helpful. And I'd say finally...

When you are thinking about removing things, like, again, try not to build into that your self-talk anything about moralizing food as good or bad and try to acknowledge what your body wants when it wants something a little sweet or wants to...

have some of your like mom's famous chocolate chip cookies or whatever. Like those things have value. Don't feel bad about it. Just kind of be more aware and know that you can't do that every day, but that you're not like bad for doing it or that it's okay to like it. It's okay to love cookies. Yeah, I am. I'm okay that I love cookies. And one thing you mentioned about learning to cook is

I was doing some research before this. Am I right that you have a course for learning to cook? I do. So this is something that comes up a lot. And it's hard to cook. And I...

The reason I think it's hard to cook is because cooking isn't one skill. It's a set of like eight skills. There's knife skills. There's flavor pairing skills. There's heat learning skills. And I taught myself and I know it wasn't that hard. And I had so many people telling me it was too hard and like, it's not that hard. And so I just put this program together. It's a 30 day program to teach people to cook without recipes. Because when I started interviewing people,

about why they don't cook, they would just give me these stories about how they

go to the grocery store with a list trying to make all these recipes they get home but you know they only used half an onion and like two carrots out of the entire bunch and they make the food and because they don't really know how to cook maybe they didn't quite season it right or maybe they cut the carrot chunks too big and so it didn't quite turn out as well as they want so they have all this food because they made a batch for like six people it's not that good nobody wants to eat it there's a bunch of leftovers in the fridge that go bad then the rest of their groceries that they didn't use in the recipes go bad and they're like miserable they're like why did i do this i

spent all this time, all this money. It didn't turn out good. And it's a waste. And they just end up getting pizza anyway. So I realized after talking to the people who do cook and the people who don't cook is the biggest difference was how much they rely on recipes as like a day-to-day cooking thing. It's like, yeah,

almost everybody will use a recipe for a bigger, more elaborate meal. But people who cook a lot can throw stuff together with whatever's in their fridge. And I wanted to teach people that skill because that's how I cook. And I just, that's the first thing I do. If I'm like, what's for dinner? And I don't know, I look in my fridge and see what's there. It's like, and I like, I can start being the conductor of the orchestra of how this is all going to come together in my belly later. Yeah. And so is that, do you think that's something easy to learn?

It sounds hard. I think you can learn it in 30 days. Okay. It's called Foodist Kitchen, by the way. Okay. Awesome. Foodistkitchen.com. Yeah. What do you think about habits that people feel like are kind of ingrained from childhood? So one thing that I feel like I regret, and maybe I'm overemphasizing it, is that I grew up in a clean plate club household. And I feel like it's been really hard

if not, you know, almost impossible to break the habit of always eat everything that's in front of you. I assume that's a pretty bad habit. Any reactions or thoughts on people who kind of grew up in that household and have that kind of ingrained in their style of eating? Well, I will 100% say that habits that you develop...

like under the age of 10 are really, really hard to break because they're, they're pretty ingrained in who you are and your identity. So I don't blame you for that being challenging. I would say, I mean, there's a couple of ways you can solve this, right? One is get smaller plates, right?

Another one is you could start a mindful eating practice. So when you're eating to finish your plate, you're on autopilot, right? You're telling me that the cue to stop eating is that your plate's empty. So that just means you're not focused on other goals.

One thing you can do is you can train yourself to really focus on the food in your mouth and the bite you're taking. And I mean, the way I do this is I practice. It was so, so hard. This is the single hardest food habit I developed. But I knew I needed it because I would eat really fast. I grew up with two brothers. So it wasn't like necessarily a...

clean plate thing. But it was just like, we all just like ate like maniacs. And like, it's amazing. We didn't choke or something. But so and my husband eats really fast. And I'm like triggered by his eating fast. I have to like be like, dude, slow down. You're like making me nervous. But now I have learned to do this slowly. And the way I did it was I

trained myself with one meal a day. And I would just go through and just like do one meal when I was basically eating with my eyes closed, not entirely closed, but when the food's in my mouth, my eyes closed, no devices, no computers, no sounds and just focus on my food. And once you develop that skill, then it gets easier to transfer it to something like a dinner out with friends. You just start naturally stopping eating when you're full. But it's a lot of practice. It's hard work.

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So the premise is kind of really focus on the food, get the

get to understand it? Is it that it will slow you down and that will make you realize you're full? Or how does that work in your brain? Both. So I mean, one of the biggest things you'd be surprised to hear people don't chew. So like, you know, when you're like a fast eater, and you're like getting to the bottom of your plate, like, my guess is you're chewing food probably like 20% as much as you should. So that 100% you will not feel as full as quickly.

And you will also probably get more stomach aches if you chewed more. And basically, it takes you out of the autopilot. So you can actually start making decisions about...

when what you want to eat and when you want to stop that that's conscious instead of unconscious i have a course for that too by the way a course on learning to mindful eat mindful eating yeah it's free it's called mindful meal challenge and it's a five-day free program that takes you through like how to tackle that one meal and there's like sort of five different things you can try and um it's i love that i love that program and i'm very proud of that one

So I'm coming back to some of the kind of habits and ways to get going. And I know you've talked in the past and thought a lot about habits, habit creation, rewards. Are there things that someone who's trying to really incorporate more vegetables, trying to eat more real foods and kind of be more intentional about what they're eating, are there ways to make that easier to become a habit and part of your new lifestyle? Well...

I mean, the easiest thing to do is work with your brain instead of against it. So we kind of touched on this a little bit earlier when we were talking about moralizing food choices. But when it comes to motivation, especially for things like health, where it's just...

day to day for the rest of your life. It's not like if you have to just study for a final or something or like prep for a podcast, you use willpower, you force yourself to work, you hit your goal and you're done. But that's this is a very different type of activity. And the most important thing for activities like that in habits that you want to build is that your motivation needs to be intrinsic. So you need to truly enjoy what you're doing for the sake of itself. Yeah.

So I absolutely encourage people not to think of rewards as being outside the food. Like if I cook myself dinner, then I can eat dessert. That's an extrinsic motivation and it can actually undermine your intrinsic motivation. There's a lot of science here, but just,

Try to believe me on this one that when you tell yourself you have to do things for a prize, it makes the thing you're doing less, less enjoyable for a lot of reasons. And so for food, that's why I'm constantly harping on seasonality, farmers markets, cooking for yourself, because one of the things that happens when you can cook for yourself is you can actually make food that you like to eat.

And that's huge. Because if you like to eat something more... I like my food cooking more than the vast majority of restaurants in probably any city I've lived in. And that's amazing, right? I didn't start out as some amazing chef, but I know what I like to eat and now I'm pretty good at it. And I think...

That you really can't underestimate how much energy you need to spend making sure that that is what you dial that in on your habits. Because if you're trying to like force yourself to do something, then it's not a habit. A habit is automatic. And the only way it becomes automatic is if it's reinforced with intrinsic reward.

Yeah. You mentioned, of course, you enjoy the food more than restaurants. And earlier you started talking about how you're willing to spend a little bit more for food. But I just want to throw out there, like, if you're spending a little bit more on ingredients, but making it at home, net net, it's probably still way less expensive than going out to eat. Way less expensive. Way less expensive. I mean, this was like my probably my number one hack for grad school was learning to cook.

because I was so broke and I'm such a food snob that like it was like literally I had no other choice. I just I was like, I have to figure out how to cook. Otherwise, I'm going to like eat myself into bankruptcy at these like fancy restaurants in San Francisco because I just I discovered those restaurants and I couldn't afford to eat there. But I I

I just I needed I needed good food. So yeah, I just got really good at cooking. You know, I know you said get past the recipes eventually. And that's good. And there's a course for it. But are there a few kind of like, easy, healthy meals, someone listening to this could say, you know what, give me something to make this week that I could try and I might really enjoy. Oh, my God, I'm gonna give you the best recipe right now. I'm so excited for you. Okay, get ahead of cauliflower, fresh as possible, break it up, throw it in a bowl, and then

Dose it with a solid amount of olive oil and a solid amount of salt. Make the pieces as close to evenly sized as possible. Heat your oven to 500 or 475. If you have convection, go 475. And...

Put the cauliflower on a baking sheet. Make sure it's... Oh, you know what? I like to add curry powder too. You don't have to, but there's some curry powder on there. It's really good on the cauliflower. Get it kind of orange and then separate it out on a baking sheet. Make sure there's like enough space on the baking sheet so it's not crowded. And then foil over it. Stick it in the oven. Set your timer for 15 minutes. Take it out. What'll happen is it'll steam a teeny bit inside there and it'll start to look a little bit translucent. Take the foil off.

Sometimes I reduce the heat a little bit more, like by 25 degrees. Stir it up and stick it back in the oven. Set your timer for eight minutes this time. And then keep checking it and stirring it every eight minutes until it's brown and crispy.

I mean, my kids, like I could feed them that every meal for every day and they would eat it like they love it. Everybody loves it. It kind of tastes like cauliflower french fries. I don't know. It's by far my most popular recipe and everybody I've made it for absolutely loves it. So give that a try. Super easy, super healthy. And the one thing you'll realize is that you wish you bought more cauliflower. Get a big one. Wow. OK, so I'm going to get this recipe. We're going to type it up and put it in the show notes for anyone who wants to make it.

I'll probably make it this weekend. And I'm excited. It sounds wonderful. I can send you a link. And there are tons of other recipes over at Summer Tomato. There's a huge recipe section. Yeah. I was going to tell you one more thing. You asked me about some hacks for cooking. One of the things that people mistake a lot. So with meat, if you're cooking meat, take it out of the fridge like an hour before you cook it. Cooking cold meat is a really fantastic way to make it tough.

And if you can, even better, it'd be salted the night before. And then like that's like probably the number one hack for cooking chicken. Just like give it a good rub of salt, probably a little more salt than you think you need. Coat it all over. Let it sit overnight in the fridge. Pull it out an hour before you want to cook it and then cook it. It'll your mind will be blown how much different it tastes.

And is this true all meats, whether it's... Pretty much. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, maybe not fish, but... That's amazing. So you've mentioned your kids a few times. How have you started to apply these lessons to your kids? And I think we probably both grew up at a time where what you eat as a kid is kind of very different, hopefully, than what the kids eat today. But do they love vegetables? Because most kids don't. Yeah. So this is the main thing I think about these days. And yeah, my kids...

are amazing eaters. They have this tree stump down in the yard and they call it their fairy house. And they're, they like go down there and like, we're going to cook for the fairies. We're going to make the fairies kale and lentils because they love kale and lentils. And Zelda, my oldest, she says that onions are her first favorite food and kale is her second favorite food. And cauliflower is definitely up there somewhere too. Yeah, no, they're fantastic eaters, but you know, it was not, not always. It's been, it's been a journey for sure. Yeah.

Any tricks for getting them to like these foods, especially for people whose kids right now kind of sneer at the idea of eating vegetables? Yeah, so a few things. I mean, make sure it tastes good. I mean, one thing I find that parents will often just sort of steam vegetables in the microwave or something and like barely put any salt or oil. It's like, would you want to eat that? Like, make food you'd want to eat. Add garlic, add salt. My kids love flavor. I don't know. There's some rumor that...

that kids need to start with bland food. If you give your kids bland food, they're going to be used to and expect bland food. And then when you give them flavor, they're going to freak out and think it's weird. So I recommend starting with flavor as early as you can and cook things in different ways. If they reject something, which totally happens, or like most kids, I mean, they're good eaters until they're two and then they get and they'll start rejecting things.

you know, just be persistent. Kids need to try something sometimes up to 20 times before they'll truly accept it. So what I'll do is I'll cook things in different ways. I'll use different spices. I'll roast versus saute if they didn't like the saute last time. And then I just, I don't fight with them over it, but you know, I do expect them to take a few bites and they'll usually do that. It's not, it's never a battle. I mean, at one point Zelda would, her limited vegetables, her vegetables were limited to cauliflower and kale.

I mean, she would sometimes eat broccoli, but like not really. But she was pretty difficult. She wouldn't eat anything orange. And she's I mean, I'm not 100 percent there with everything yet, but she now loves carrots, like loves broccoli, like everything. She just really, really loves it. And it just took persistence and just making sure that the food tastes good and having them keep trying. And sometimes I wait a few months and try again.

Yeah, we someone gave us that tip with toys. They were like, Oh, if there's a toy that someone's that your daughter's not interested in, just hide it for a couple months and bring it back. Like memory is not so well formed yet that two months later that they probably think it's a brand new toy and they're excited to see it. So toys, toy rotating is key. For sure.

Yeah. Okay. So a couple quick hits I want to ask. What are your thoughts on skipping meals or intermittent fasting as part of the food lifestyle?

Really good question. So my initial thought is a lot of the data that was done on intermittent fasting were pretty short fasts, like 13 to 14 hours, which is a pretty reasonable amount of time to go from dinner to breakfast. So in that realm, like, I think you're fine. Like, you don't really get hungry in 13, 14 hours. And...

There's a lot of potential benefits from that. So I think that's pretty reasonable. When you start getting into longer fasts, 16, 18, 24, multi-day fasts, it gets a little trickier. I would say that for certain populations, it's amazing. For instance, it's been shown to really, really help with cancer, like chemotherapy. Our friend Mike Mazur had a really excellent result with his chemotherapy because he was doing a lot of fasting at the same time. And there's...

There's tons of science supporting this now. It's really awesome. So in certain populations, I think longer fast can be extremely beneficial. But for most people, it can be a little risky, I'd say, for a couple of reasons. One, if you've been in a chronic diet or at all, it can really lead to some binging behavior. And I would generally recommend anybody who has a history of dieting to avoid long fasting. I think there's better ways to get those same results.

I would also say that you have to be really careful with fasting because a lot of the recent data that's coming out is showing that extended fasting can really, really reduce muscle mass dramatically. So if you are going to be fasting, it's really, really important that when you do eat, you eat a good amount of protein and you do a lot of strength training exercises. Otherwise, you can really mess up your metabolism and lose a lot of muscle mass. So those are some things to be cautious about in that realm. Otherwise, whatever. Whatever works for you. Yeah.

And what about kind of timing your eating? Is it important to follow a schedule or circadian rhythm? Or people always talk about how just grazing is a bad habit. Is that less important if you're grazing on good things?

My goodness. I think you're the first non-scientist to ever ask me about circadian rhythms. That's amazing. I'm so proud of you. Yeah, no, circadian rhythms are really, really, really important. I think they're underestimated by most people. And the more you are on a schedule, the easier your life's going to be for like a lot of things, especially kids. I mean, kids are like...

so on that train like i don't we're on a really tight schedule the kids but for myself personally even i if you your body and your mind know what to expect and they can regulate their hormones in a way to prepare you for that and if you're eating all over the place your body is going to be confused and it's going to be a lot harder so yes generally if you can i highly recommend sticking to a schedule it's going to be super helpful

So just to wrap up a couple last things, if someone were out there saying, I want to get started, obviously, you said earlier, don't just jump all the way and maybe start with a meal. Any other tips for someone who's trying to transition from maybe a less healthy style? Yeah.

I would say just start with one or two habits at a time. Don't go too crazy. I mean, when it was me... So basically what I did was... I mean, I was dieting all the time. I was running marathons. I was doing all this stuff. I was working out for like two hours a day. I was just a crazy person. And...

One day I was like, I'm going to stop doing this. I'm going to stop being crazy and I'm going to start eating breakfast. And so I started with breakfast and I hadn't eaten carbs in like seven years or something, but I ate oatmeal and I just tried it.

it. And crazy things happened just from this oatmeal. First of all, I expected to gain weight because I was eating carbs. I didn't. And two, I was like, that did amazing things to kill my sugar cravings. Because I think one of the big reasons my body wanted sugar so bad was because I wasn't giving it any at all. But when I would have just a little bit of carbs in the morning, my whole day was so much easier and so much better. And that's the sort of thing that

you can see when you just change one habit at a time. And same thing with like adding vegetables or just like adding more vegetables to your dinner, just start with dinner or lunch or something like that. And you can see when you make changes that way, you can see what is and what isn't working and you can adjust accordingly. And then you can see your progress and you can see exactly what the building blocks you need to create your healthy lifestyle. All right. I hope everyone can put some of this to good use. One last thing, you mentioned sugar.

I have this thing in my head and I think it's totally wrong, but I can't get over it. So maybe you can help. I've associated sugar with bad. And I'm like, oh, sugar, which I know nothing should be bad or good. And so somehow I've translated sugar being bad to fruit has a lot of natural sugar and fruit falls in the dessert bucket. I mean...

So fruit is magic. I love fruit so much. It's funny. I always am trying to like decide what my favorite fruit is. And I think I just do this to torture myself because it's always whatever's in season and is amazing right now. Like the melons right now are so good. It brings a tear to the eye and those pluots. But there's nothing wrong with fruit. Can you gain weight eating fruit? Totally. If you eat a ton of fruit, you can gain weight eating anything, right? You can lose weight eating anything. It's really just a matter of how much you're eating.

And that sounds simple, but it's true on one level. The problem is...

If you aren't eating a lot of protein, then you can feel more hungry and you will tend to eat more. And that's how people end up gaining weight is if they're eating more because they're not satisfied with what they are getting. But there's plenty of room for fruit in a healthy diet. It's a wonderful thing. And I find fruit is so ethereal. It's like the really good stuff will be in season for like a few weeks at their peak. The really good cherries, the really good strawberries. And

Like nothing on earth would tell me to ever tell somebody to like slow down on that. Go nuts. They're so good. Is there an easy way to figure out what's in season right now? I mean, the easiest way is to go to your local farmer's market.

And they just only sell what's in season. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's funny. It's like people ask me this all the time. And I just picked it up by going to the market. But if you want to think about it in broad terms. So in the spring, everything's coming up, right? Everything was dead and cold and everything's coming up. So you get buds. You get asparagus shooting out of the ground. You get fresh lettuces. You get green garlic. You get...

sort of the delicate early stuff. You don't start really seeing new fruit until strawberries come out kind of in the late spring, early summer. And then you start getting like a fruit bonanza.

And then the summer, like it progresses into more hearty vegetables, carrots, broccolis, cauliflowers, things like that. Later in the summer, you get stuff that like takes a lot more ripening. So you think about like harvests and what takes a long time, like a tomato takes longer to ripen. Winter squash take longer to ripen. Corn takes longer to ripen. Apples, pears kind of even later in the summer. Melons are early or late summer ripens.

And as you move into winter, you start to have to have the more hearty foods that are going to survive the frost. You get pomegranates at the beginning. You get a lot of root vegetables, tubers, heartier kales, things like that. In the winter, we eat a lot of radicchio salads, a lot of bitter greens. And then that's why we're so happy when the sweet ones come out in the spring again. But

Yeah, I mean, there's certain things that are kind of good all year, like broccoli, cauliflower, kale. I mean, they're pretty good all year. You can always get onions. You can always get garlic, although they're usually grown in certain times of year and then stored. Winter squash in the winter, summer squash in the summer.

Yeah, the squash camp makes it so easy. If they just named every vegetable with or fruit when it when it's right, that would be wonderful. Wouldn't it? Awesome. Okay, now I'm hungry, which is probably the worst time to go figure out what to eat. But before we go, I want you to share a little bit about what you're working on now because I know you have a new podcast and tell people where to find everything. Yeah, thank you. I'm recently launched the Daria Rose show.

which is all about me. Just kidding. I really wanted to just tackle some of the harder problems I was seeing in the world. So I had a podcast called Foodist about all the stuff we're talking about right now. And it was awesome. But then I had a bunch of babies and that kind of fell aside for two years. I think COVID hit and the whole world turned upside down. And I just felt like I needed to take a step back and...

address more basic questions. So instead of just personal health, how do we know it's true anymore? I felt like I had to step back and define that before I could even really get started on episodes. So my first four or five episodes are all about...

figuring out how to know what's true in the media, in science, in health and medicine. And I just interviewed some amazing people in that front. And then just other personal health questions that aren't specific to food. For instance, I have an episode about sunscreen and how to pick a sunscreen because that's surprisingly complicated and tricky. So just those questions that are kind of hard, kind of controversial, but that you need answers to to navigate your life.

And I just take a very fact-based, science-based approach and do what I've always done in food and kind of apply it to these other questions. It's been really, really fun. It's been awesome to talk to smart people again and learn so much from others and share that with my audience who are so wonderful. Yeah, the show is fantastic. So definitely check it out. Anywhere else to find you online?

Just summer tomato.com for all the recipes, foodistkitchen.com for the cooking class, mindfulmealchallenge.com for the mindful eating course. And then dariarose show.com is my, is my podcast where I am right now for the most part. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much, Chris.

That was amazing. I hope you really enjoyed the conversation. You'll find links to everything, including Daria's incredible cauliflower recipe in the show notes. If you're not already subscribed to all the hacks, please go ahead and click subscribe. Or if you haven't left a rating review in your podcast app, it would mean so much if you could do that.

especially with the Plutus Awards coming up later this month, where we might be chosen for best new podcast. Finally, I'm about to do a bunch of outreach to line up the next 10 to 15 guests. So if there's someone you'd love me to have on the show, or there's a topic you'd like me to explore, please shoot me an email, chris at allthehacks.com, or you can find me on Twitter. I'm at Hutchins. I read everything you guys send and love hearing from you. So thank you so much for reaching out. All right, that's it for now. See you next week.

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