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Hello, and welcome to another episode of All The Hacks, a show about upgrading your life, money, and travel, all while spending less and saving more. I'm your host, Chris Hutchins, and I'm excited to have you on my journey to find all the hacks. Now, I've had a lot of conversations about money and travel, but today's conversation is something different. And honestly, it was so amazing, I had to go back and re-listen to it so I could take notes myself. Today, I'm going to talk about how to make money and travel a little bit different.
It's a conversation with Kwame Christian, all about negotiating, and it's something he definitely knows a lot about. Kwame's a practicing attorney. He's the director of the American Negotiation Institute, a professor of negotiation at The Ohio State University. He's the host of the world's most popular negotiation podcast, Negotiate Anything, and the best-selling author of Finding Confidence in Conflict, How to Negotiate Anything and Live Your Best Life.
I aspire to have a resume like that one day. And in our conversation, we'll get into so many different ways that you can become a better negotiator, not just in business deals or at work, but in difficult conversations with your partner, your family, or your friends. I think you're really going to enjoy this one. So let's jump in. Kami, thanks for being here. Hey, glad to be here, Chris.
Yeah. So what do you think most people get wrong when it comes to negotiating? Well, a lot of times when they think about negotiation, they focus on what are the amazing, insightful things that they can say. And in reality, negotiation is more about the amazing and insightful questions that you ask. If you can just simply start asking better questions, you're going to get better results in your negotiations.
And obviously, if you're in sales or you're a lawyer like yourself, negotiating is a part of business. But I assume this is a skill that is valuable for anyone, right?
Absolutely. And so our motto is that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. So when you think about it, when you analyze your life, when you think about the most impactful moments, the biggest decisions, there's probably a difficult conversation somewhere in the vicinity of that moment. So to a large extent, your success and failure, happiness and sadness are
All of those are going to come down to how well or how poorly you have these difficult conversations. And that's both in your personal and professional life. And do you think there are people who are naturally better at negotiating? Is there kind of a correlated skill set or anything like that?
I will answer that with some hesitation because the answer is obviously yes. For sure there is. But I don't want to give people a pass because a lot of times people will just say, I'm not a good negotiator. But I correct them before I answer their question or respond. I just say, you're not a good negotiator yet.
And so this reminds me back, I believe, Carol Dweck and Mindset, the book on Mindset. You can either have the growth mindset or you can have the fixed mindset. And a lot of people have a fixed mindset when it comes to negotiation and difficult conversation or persuasion because they say, either I'm born with it or I don't have it. And so the people who say, oh, I'm not born with it, they just say, I'm going to be relegated to living a life of failure and
and doom, and bad conversations. But that's not the case. And in fact, some of the people who are most likely to say I'm not a good negotiator, they actually have the foundation to become better negotiators. So for instance, somebody who's more naturally introverted. So they're not gonna have the problem of over-speaking
they're going to be more likely to be better listeners. They're going to be more generous in their way of communicating. And so that's actually perhaps a better personality-based foundation for having difficult conversations. How do you think someone should evaluate where they're at today and how big of a gap they have to close to be a great negotiator?
I like to be outcome-oriented on this, Chris. So I would think about the outcomes, but it can't just be the outcomes because sometimes people succeed despite their poor natural tendencies. So for instance, if you are somebody who is very loud, aggressive, and mean, you're a bully, you might just say, yeah, I always get what I want, so I'm good at this. Doesn't necessarily...
mean that you're good. It just means that you haven't run into that limitation yet, because eventually somebody is going to figure out how to deal with a bully. You're going to have one tool, the tool doesn't work, and now you're kind of lost. And so you have to think about the outcome, but not just the outcome. Because when you think about negotiation, yes, of course, it's a process and it's also the outcome too. And the outcome can't just be limited to what we're talking about numbers wise. So let's say we're talking about a deal. I know you're a
background in finance and some work there. So for instance, numbers matter. I can't get around that. Numbers do matter. But in the business world, relationships matter too. So if you're getting a good number in this deal, but damaging the relationship at the same time, it might have a negative impact on you going forward in your future negotiations too. So you have to look at it a little bit more holistically.
I've always heard an adage of a great negotiation is when both parties are a little dissatisfied walking away. Is that the right way to look at it? Or is there a better kind of guide for a successful negotiation? Yeah, there's definitely a better way to negotiate.
Look at it. Because if you're going in and you're saying, yes, with this mentality, you're saying, yes, both of us will be in pain at the end of it. Then you're going to naturally start to take paths that take you in that direction, too. I think it's really important for you to have a very clear understanding of what it is that you want and why. And then also at the same time, go through this process, the negotiation process, in
in order to figure out what it is that they want and why, and not just taking the first thing that they say, right? So you have to dig beneath the surface to figure that out because what you can find is very unique areas of overlap. That's where creativity comes into play.
And who knows, depending on the circumstances, we might be able to find that classic win-win. I'm ambivalent toward that term, but I know people understand it, that we're all looking for. Oh, this wasn't as bad for me. Oh, it didn't hurt you as bad. That outcome might be there, but we might miss it if we're thinking that both of us have to suffer a little bit of discomfort along the way. So I think it's really important for us to get very clear on what we want and why and what they want and why, and then figure out what
path gets us there faster. So it's kind of like the difference between strategic thinking and tactical thinking.
So is negotiating more strategic or tactical or kind of both? It's got to be both. So I need to have my goal and then I need to reason backwards to figure out what my overall strategy will be. And then when it comes to the actual X's and O's during the negotiation at the negotiation table while I'm talking to you, those are the tactics. And so once I get clarity on my goal and then my strategy, then I can kind of cherry pick to see which tactics work. But
But one tactic might be powerful in general, but not powerful in this particular circumstance just because it doesn't meet our strategic goal too. So you always have to have the big picture in mind to make sure that you're picking the right tactic.
Okay, so I want to talk about the tactics. I also want to, you mentioned the negotiating process. I'm curious about your process. But before that, I just want to understand, how did you end up being the, you know, the negotiation guy, right? The number top rank negotiating podcast, like this is your thing. How did that come about?
Yeah, as you could probably assume, it was pretty weird. You know, this is not what little kids grow up and say, I want to be. And so for me, my undergrad degree is in psychology. So I went to Ohio State University, a master's undergrad degree in psychology, and then minors in foundation of law and Spanish. I wanted to be a therapist originally.
And it is because I was a people pleaser. And so I had to get over that social phobia. And so I wanted to empower people. And so then I said, you know what, if I want to empower people and help people, I could be, I could do that more efficiently by getting into politics. And so Chris, this is where I started to get astray. And
And so that's where I went to law school, did law school and got my master's of public policy in three years at Ohio State. And so during that process, I started to learn more about politics. And Chris, you might find this surprising, but I realized that would be an undesirable lifestyle. I didn't want that for my family. They deserve better than that. And so I was that guy getting sworn in after passing the bar, asking himself what he wants to be when he grows up. And
And so for me, I did some civil rights work, leaning on that public policy degree, health equity, to be more precise. And then I always had an entrepreneurial bug, so I started my own practice and built that up for a while. But I knew that I wanted to discover more about these difficult conversations because I
I had a class in law school and it was a negotiation class. It was the first time I ever took that class or heard about the topic. And I fell in love because it was the first time I saw psychology used for a business or legal purpose just so clearly. And so we had a negotiation competition.
And my partner and I won the competition at Ohio State that allowed us to represent the school at regionals in Ottawa, Ontario. We won that competition as well. That was with the American Bar Association. And then we made it to the semifinals of the national competition. So I was like, I like this negotiation thing. Let's figure this out. Because like I said, as a recovering people pleaser, it was the first time I really fully appreciated that this was a skill more so than a talent.
I can learn how to do better at this. And so I said, there are probably other people who are struggling with the same skill. Let's figure this out. How can I help to empower more people? So my whole professional career was figuring out how I can get back to negotiation and how I could make a career out of it.
And so that's what led me to the American Negotiation Institute, because the goal is to help people learn this skill. And that's why you see me doing it at scale. So most other people in the negotiation consulting world, they target their clients and that's pretty much it. But our
goal. We pride ourselves in putting out as much free content as possible. So we have the podcast, my show coming out five days a week. We have Ask With Confidence, which is all about women in negotiation and leadership that comes out weekly. And now we have a new podcast that's weekly. It's in Spanish. It's the only Spanish language negotiation podcast called Negociacion Desde Cero. And that started on our network of podcasts about three weeks ago.
So it's exciting. It's fun. And my team hates when I say this, but, you know, it's the free work that really gets me excited when I get messages on LinkedIn from people talking about how they changed their lives with what they've learned through our content. That's great. And then, of course, the negotiation training and the negotiation consulting pays the bills.
And you said that, you know, this isn't what every kid wants to grow up doing. But if you look back at your childhood, can you see glimpses of young negotiating Kwame trying to get things done that make you realize that maybe this was a path you were destined to take?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You definitely can see that because I was always the peacemaker. I always tried to bring people together to reconcile, help people to reconcile their differences and things like that. And so I can definitely see that mentality coming out in different ways during childhood. And I've also been, I've always been curious about people in general, humanity. I find that humans are the most interesting animals on the planet. Yeah.
So I like to learn as much as I can. And so that is what keeps on pulling me back to psychology. And that's really been helpful because it helps me to understand things. But also as I'm teaching other people, it helps them to understand not just what works, but actually why it works.
Yeah. And it's funny, I think I've come from negotiating from a perspective of, you know, it's about getting the deal and a lot of savings. And that's kind of the thing that's driven me. But it sounds like there's a process that you take when you think about negotiating, whether it's business or work or pleasure or anything. What is that process? So there's a framework that we use that we call the compassionate curiosity framework, and it can be used in any difficult conversation, whether it's at work or at home.
And so it helps, especially with the highly emotional conversations that will come up. Because the thing is, Chris, a lot of times with these negotiations, you have these really high-level strategies that you want to use, these insightful things, your ration and your logic, you want to put all that together. But a lot of times we don't even get the person to a place where they can psychologically appreciate what it is that we're saying because we've done such a poor job of managing the emotions. Right.
And so that's why we wanted to focus on the Compassionate Curiosity Framework as our marquee contribution to the industry. And so it's a simple three-step process, helps you know what to say and when to say it for maximum impact. So step one is acknowledge and validate emotions. Step two, get curious with compassion. And step three is joint problem-solving.
And so you can cycle through it based on what you see. And so it helps to alleviate that emotional distress at the beginning so people can operate on a higher level. And then it helps you to gather information, but doing it with a compassionate tone so people don't get afraid and they don't want to be forthright and share the information. Then last step is just working with the other side to figure out what works. And is there an example you could walk through to kind of bring it to life?
So the reason I still practice is because I want... It's story collection, Chris, for moments like these. So I was in this negotiation representing a company. It was a manufacturing type of situation. Multiple six figures on the line. And the relationship between my client and the manufacturer had frayed significantly. And it got to the point where the CEOs of the respective companies were sending offensive emails back and forth. So I'm like, well, you know, this sounds pretty bad.
And so, you know, going into that conversation, obviously we understood that there was a high level of emotionality on both sides. Not only was there a lot of money at issue, but they were personally insulted through the process. And so the funny thing is, the really funny thing is I went into that conversation.
And of course I prepared, but I knew that the core approach was going to be addressing that emotional side. Then I had my tactics that I would use down the road, but I was like, this is going to be my foundation, the Compassionate Curiosity Framework. And then throughout this whole one hour negotiation, I used one tool, Chris, just this, that's it. And everything was fine. And so what we did, first I had to coach my client. I was like, listen,
When things get hot, just let me handle this. I know you're mad. Let me absorb this for you. Because if that person were to get upset and jump in, then everything is kind of lost here. And so I just started off by asking, how did we get here? What are you experiencing on your side? And so they would say their piece.
Everything was good. Talking to the engineer first, they were very level-headed. And so there was no emotionality. So when there's no emotion, then you just skip to step two, which is getting curious with compassion. So I was just asking a lot of open-ended questions, summarizing, demonstrating my understanding, asking more questions. And so a fuller picture started to appear. So not only were these people not evil, not only were they not negligent, but they were actually...
They were actually going out of their way to perform above and beyond the contract. They just didn't do a good job of communicating down the line. They were communicating with our person's project manager, but not the CEO. So it was like a game of telephone.
And then, so everything's going well. So I say, okay, great. We're just going to ask questions. Then we'll cycle into joint problem solving. This is kind of smooth. Then their CEO started talking. He was pissed. He's like, this was like 20 minutes in, Chris. And then he says,
I have to address these emails. And he printed them out and he was reading them verbatim. And so he was going on and getting, he started to rant. And so that's an opportunity. Rationally, what you want to do is you emotionally will be drawn towards like counteracting every point that they make. I'm going to counter that point. That's wrong. I'm going to contest that. I'm going to contest that. But here's what you do with the framework is,
You don't pay attention as much to the specificity of what they're saying. Of course you do because you respect the person, but that's not the core. You listen more for the emotions. What are the emotions behind that? I'm going to respond to the emotions rather than the specifics of what this person is saying.
And so what I did is I took notes and I listened to this rant for about five minutes. And as he's ranting, I'm texting my client. I'm saying, don't say anything. Don't say anything. Let me handle this. And so all I did in response to that rant is I summarized everything. And then I just said, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like with the emails that you received, it sounds like you were pretty offended by that. So when you're acknowledging and validating the emotions, you're giving an emotional label, right?
And so they'll either accept or reject it. And there's a whole psychology behind that. And so his response was, I wouldn't say offended, but I would say just a little bit disheartened and frustrated with the situation. So even if you're wrong, they'll correct you, which labels the emotion.
And so then he started to explain a little bit more. You start to see the level of emotionality go down. So what you do is you stay in this role of acknowledging and validating emotions. So you summarize and then say it sounds like or it seems like, and then they start to calm down. And I didn't transition into something more substantive until I recognized that emotionality was going down. And then I got asked some more questions. Then we transitioned into problem solving. And it was really easy. And I ended the call by saying,
I have a sense of humor. Listen, don't use humor in negotiations if you're not funny. But thankfully, the market has responded favorably to me in the past. And so we ended up and everything was good. And I said, and before we go, gentlemen, I just wanted you to know this. I am frankly very disappointed in the way that this call went. I was expecting a lot more emotion and more insults. And you all were just way too reasonable. Listen.
So everybody got a good laugh, but really that's it. But there were so many opportunities there, Chris, to do it the wrong way.
to start going tit for tat on the insults when he started to rehash, right? And a lot of times what we have to do is we have to recognize these little inflection points in these conversations where you can go one way or the other way. You can keep it productive or you could try to make it a right versus wrong type of thing. And so that's a really powerful example of how, even though this is a situation about money, very clearly about dollars and cents, very business oriented,
So just simply cycling through that framework was the right answer because what was manifesting itself as a substantive issue was really largely emotional. That's amazing. I feel like I've been in similar situations, both personal and work.
And I haven't had a Kwame on my side to say, hey, be quiet. Let me ask questions. Are there are there tactics you would recommend for people who don't have a master negotiator sitting at their side to kind of do to prepare to make sure that they kind of get the same outcome?
Yes, Chris, and I love the word that you said. Preparation is my love language. So if you go to our website, AmericanNegotiationInstitute.com slash guide, you can get access to all of our free negotiation guides that help you prepare systematically. And so a lot of times, still today, there are times where I don't feel comfortable, where I still feel a bit afraid or nervous before a conversation. Usually that's because of a lack of preparation.
And so it gives me a systematic way to prepare beforehand. So that's number one. The other thing that I think people don't realize is powerful is proper role playing. And I say proper because there's some ways to level it up. So first way, you want to role play twice. So first, you want to role play as the person that you're going to talk to.
Right? So it's like, who am I going to talk to? I'm not going to role play as myself. I'm going to role play playing their role. And so it leads to higher levels of empathy because you'll start hearing yourself making arguments and rationalizations that you never thought of before when you're forced to play their role. And so it helps you to be a lot more prepared and it helps you to empathize because a lot of times we just go into it like this person is evil or crazy.
Like we just vilify them and write them off. But when you're playing their role, it forces you to find validity and legitimacy in what it is that they're saying. And usually it's there, but our emotions make it difficult for us to find it. So role-playing as the other side is the best way to do it. Then you role-play as yourself, do a second session. And so what you tell your partner is this, you tell them exactly what you're afraid of.
what is your biggest fear? Is this person highly emotional? What kind of emotions? Do I need to prepare for tears or do I need to prepare for aggression? So you tell the other side exactly what your biggest fears are and say, listen, if they are at a five out of 10, I need you in this role play to pretend that you are a 20 out of 10. I want you to take this to a level where it would be unrealistic that somebody could behave this badly. And so then whenever you actually have the actual negotiation, well,
Whatever ridiculous thing the person says or does, you're completely prepared because you're like, man, I role-played with Chris and he was awful to me. So you're ready for what life has to offer you in that actual conversation. What about when you don't have time to prepare? I find that, I guess, business negotiations, you often, you know when they're coming. Sometimes at home, relationship negotiations or conflicts,
They don't always come with preparation time. You can get into a conversation and that leads to something and you don't have time to prepare. Is there anything you like to do in the moment if you haven't prepared to make it a more successful conversation or negotiation? So let me start off with a disclaimer that I always get my guests to say inadvertently, but it happens. I am much better at doing this in the business world than I am in my personal life, but...
Because when emotions are tighter, it's like, man, I look at my performance afterwards. I say, have I ever had a conversation before, Chris? I don't know. You know, it's weird. And so all of my guests, they say, oh, yeah, I'm much better in the real world than I am at home. So let's just say that. So I think that's something that we have to recognize. And there are a few reasons why.
So number one, most of the time when we're having conversations at home, like let's say with a significant other, it's after a long day of work. So you are already tired. And when you're tired, that makes it more likely for your natural tendencies to flow.
Because, for instance, if you have a diet, if you're well-rested, hey, I can stay on that diet. But if I'm super tired, it's much easier for me to smash on some junk food because I don't have that discipline, that mental discipline. So that's one of the many reasons why it's harder at home. And so you have to create some time. Either pause and just say, hey...
I'm not prepared to have this conversation right now. Would you mind if we have it at a specific time? You can just say, it might be five minutes, but just be honest with yourself and with the other person.
If they're really pushing you, then what I suggest is do this. If we're using the language of the compassionate curiosity, just stay in step one and step two. I'm not going to try to problem solve right now. All I'm doing is I'm going to acknowledge and validate your emotions, and I'm going to get curious with compassion and ask questions so you can express yourself. I'm going to focus completely on you.
If I'm speaking less, it's less likely for me to make a mistake. So that's all I'm going to do in this interaction right now. And then let's say in the business world, we're very busy. We are very, very busy. And it's tough to get that time to prepare because I would tell people, hey, you know, take an hour or two or prepare. They say, where am I supposed to find that? Okay. So I call this the three minute prep. Okay. And so sometimes a call is coming up. I didn't have time to prep. That's okay. This is how you can do it in three minutes. Right.
First, ask yourself, what do I want and why? Figure that out. Write that down. Then ask yourself, what do they want and why? And so use your best guess. You want to verify that during the conversation. And then you ask yourself, what are all of the open-ended questions that I could possibly ask in this conversation? So you want to try to get at least three. So it's, what do I want and why? What do they want and why? And then as many open-ended questions as you get.
And you can do that in one to three minutes. And just doing that alone will put you in a better mindset and help you to be more prepared for your conversation.
And why open-ended questions? And what are some examples of great open-ended questions? Yeah, so open-ended questions give you a narrative response. It's an information game. Knowledge is power, and power in negotiation is leverage. You don't want to just give it all away, but you also want to collect as much as you can in preparation beforehand and during the conversation. Because I think especially us geographers,
raised with the internet, it's easy for us to become a little bit too overconfident in how much we know because we can just Google so much. But the reality is a lot of the most pertinent information is only found within the confines of their mind. They need to share it with you. And a lot of times they won't do that without proper prompting. And so you want to ask open-ended questions because it creates that narrative response and leads to a lot more explanation.
And so I want people to explain, I want them to expand and share what they're thinking in with as many words as it takes for them to get there. When it comes to some of my favorite questions, especially in transactional negotiations, this is one of the most powerful questions that you could ask. And especially Chris, given some of the hacks that you've told me about where it comes to saving money, you would love this question too. It's simply what flexibility do you have?
What flexibility do you have? So think about it as just like in a marketplace type of scenario, or you're at a hotel trying to negotiate an upgrade or whatever. Just ask what flexibility do you have? Because number one, it's open-ended, so they have to elaborate. Number two, it has the assumption that there is flexibility. We're saying, hey, I know you have flexibility. You know you have flexibility. Just what is it? What does it look like, right? And so it's not threatening as well.
Because it's not an aggressive type of statement that puts people on the defensive, just very conversational and open. So that's one of my favorite questions. And then the other ones don't actually end in question marks. So tell me more about this or help me to understand that. Those type of things are other great sentence formulations for a lot of information.
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don't miss the chance to maximize your happiness and save money join over 37 000 people getting my newsletter by going to allthehacks.com slash email and signing up for free again that's allthehacks.com slash email so it sounds like if you ask a lot of open-ended questions you're not doing a lot of talking yourself is that the goal is there a target percentage for how much you want to be talking versus the other person and is there any data behind why you'd want to do this
Yes and yes. So I call it the 70-30 rule. So I try to speak only 30% of the time and get the other person talking 70% of the time. In my casual conversations, I use it as practice and I try to see how extreme I can get that ratio. Can I get it 90-10? 80-20? Let's see. Because every conversation is practice.
I want to do well in these little conversations. So the big ones really matter. So I'm ready. And so the science behind this, a book reference is The Code of Trust by Robin Dreek, former FBI agent, and his job was to flip spies.
And so one of the things he talked about was with studies, the more you let people talk, especially if you let them talk about things that they enjoy, it creates a lot of dopamine in their system and they'll associate that positivity with you. That's what ends up creating more trust.
So it becomes self-fulfilling. So you let them talk. They feel better about themselves. They feel understood. And they start to like you more during the process. The more that they like you and trust you during the process, the more vulnerable they will be. And more vulnerability leads to more information as well. And so there is a lot of science behind it. The more they talk, the better they feel.
Now, it sounds like you could use this for bad. Is there something you keep in the back of your mind to try to make sure, you know, as you said earlier, a negotiation isn't just about winning? Mm hmm. Yeah. And so I have to redefine winning.
That's really what it is because winning has to deal with the outcome for sure. That's a part of it. But I think you can win every single difficult conversation if you think about it in this way. So goal number one is to put myself in the best position for success. So what is it that I need to do or say to put myself in the best position? I'm going to do the best that I can. Can't win them all. I can't guarantee that somebody's going to respond the right way. I
But I can guarantee that I can choose the right tools at the right time based on proper information. I can do the best that I can. Then the second thing is if I'm improving during the process, because sometimes we might be tempted to take some shortcuts. Like people might be tempted to lie in the process or something like that. But is that improving your skills? No, it's not.
And so I think about every conversation as practice. So if I'm putting myself in the best position for success and I'm improving my skills in the process, then I'm winning. And so, especially as a competitive person, I really had to divorce myself from the outcome and marry myself to the process. That's really what it comes down to. And if you become like...
too focused on the outcome, then it could lead you astray. And then to your point about in the wrong hands, it could be used for evil. You are 100% right. And that's why I tell people persuasion is just a tool. It depends on how you use it because persuasion and manipulation are the same thing, but it comes down to intent, right?
And so what I did in my research is I figured out that all of your thousands of listeners, I know that they're all good people. So I feel comfortable sharing these skills because your people use it for good, not evil. Okay. So that means everyone listening needs to make Kwame proud and use this only for good things like free upgrades and big discounts. So one other tactic I'd love your take on. Should you always be making the first offer in a negotiation? Yeah.
Yeah. So you will hear a lot of people say, always make the first offer. And then you'll hear other people say, never make the first offer. And I will say, never listen to absolutes. Okay. You know, I'm a lawyer, so it depends. And it depends on this one thing.
So if you have as much information or more information than the other side, then you make the first offer. If you have less information, then you let them make the first offer and then counter because every offer has to be substantiated by information. And that's how you learn.
And so one of the things you have to keep in mind is that anchoring is a legitimate and powering tool. And so the way that I describe it is anchoring is the most aggressive request that you can legitimately justify. There's a lot of science behind why there is first mover advantage in negotiation because it sets the reference point for the conversation.
Lots of fun studies on that too, but just know that there is a strategic advantage to making a competent first offer. So if you have that information, then drop that anchor, make that first offer. But it is too risky if you don't know as much as the other side. It's kind of like a job offer type of negotiation where they say, hey, Chris, we like you. What will it take for us to bring on the team? And you're like, all right, you know, if you could pay me $200,000, I think that would be great. And they're like, no.
Yeah, absolutely. We can do that. Feel dumb. You say, what could I have asked for? I was clearly in the wrong range, you know? So that's the mentality behind it. Yeah. And,
And if you don't have enough information to make that competent first offer and someone comes back to you with something that you think is crazy, how do you react? So there are a couple of things. So with the initial reaction, you have to make sure that you make it clear that this is not in the range of possibility.
So you have to set that expectation because a lot of times people will throw out an anchor and they would try to read your body language, see how you're responding to it. Okay. Hey, you know, they didn't like it, but they didn't fall out of the chair. So I guess I'm in the range. Let's, let's keep on hammering home this anchor. And so what you want to do is you want to express clearly, Hey, this is not in the range, but I think if we have a conversation, we could try to figure out a way to bridge this gap. And so for me with an anchor that is outside the range of possibility, I'm,
I'm almost going to act like it never happened.
And here's why. Because there's significant psychological consequences because of the science of anchoring. It sets that reference point. And the more you talk about the anchor, the more legitimate it becomes, the more concrete and crystallized it becomes in the minds of everybody around. So that's why when I'm telling people and teaching them how to make an offer and using the anchoring technique, I tell them that you want to be creative about saying that anchor over and over and over again, because they're becoming more and more comfortable with it.
the more times you talk about it. So when they're on the receiving end, I'm like, we need to pretend like that never even happened. Yeah.
Right? And one of the strategic mistakes that people make is that when somebody gives them an anchor that is aggressive, they try to attack the anchor directly, which is the common sense thing to do. Hey, that was preposterous. I need to attack it and let you know that that will not fly. Right? Now, here's why that is problematic. Because it creates a scenario called psychological entrenchment. This was explored the best.
by Deepak Malhotra in the book Negotiation Genius. So what ends up happening is that when you attack an anchor or an offer directly too forcefully, what ends up happening is the other person, in order to save their dignity, they have to defend themselves and the anchor. And so what you're doing is you're forcing them to create arguments for why that anchor is legitimate because you're telling them that it is illegitimate.
So you want to shift the conversation away from the specifics of that anchor and instead try to figure out the rationale behind it. What problem are they trying to solve with that anchor? Okay, so I'm going to try to find a different way to solve those problems that is not so threatening or damaging to my business.
Yeah, we recently purchased a home. And when you're negotiating the price of a home, it's maybe one of the bigger personal negotiations people are doing. And...
And sometimes you might think that that first anchor is about money. But in reality, we learned by asking the real estate agent what was really important to the client that no, actually, the most important thing was about finding a good family and closing quickly. So it's like, oh, okay, now we know what's really important. And so instead of saying the price is wrong, we said, hey, we're going to close quickly.
here's what we can do, focused on the things that were important to them, and then let the price be secondary. And it ended up being a little bit more favorable outcome because we were willing to move quickly. And so sometimes you can ask directly. Sometimes if you're dealing with a
middle party, like a real estate agent, you could just ask and say, hey, what's really important to the seller or the buyer? Do they want to close the deal quickly? Do they want to make the most amount of money? Are they looking for lower risk, like no contingencies? Do they just want to sell it to a family that'll treat the home right? In which case you should probably write a letter. I tend to say the letter's free. So even if you don't know if they care, just write the letter. Yeah. So that's a personal example where what I thought was important in the anchor was the price. And it turns out it was important.
Of course, but it wasn't the most important thing. Exactly. Yep. And that's the thing. Our assumptions will often lead us astray. So that's why it's good like you did in that example. You treat it not as an assumption, but more a hypothesis where you go in there saying it's likely to be true, but I'm going to still test it during this conversation by still staying curious. Yep. And when do you walk away from a negotiation?
So walking away is an art and a science. So we'll talk about when and how. So when it depends on how much you need the deal, and it also depends on how much time you have to close the deal. Because there's sometimes where I say, you know, if I invested about $1,000,
A couple more months, I think I could get this across the finish line. But the question is, do I want to invest a couple more months? Because there's an opportunity cost when I'm spending my time doing this. And so you have to have in your mind a certain kind of shot clock.
saying how many meetings and whatnot will I go through before calling this off. And depending on the situation, you want to let them know. I'm doing a mediation between two business partners trying to negotiate a business divorce. So I told them, hey, we'll do these one hour long sessions. I'll talk to you each individually. We'll do about two or three rounds. And then at that point, if we haven't gotten to an agreement, I'm going to be a little bit more aggressive with how much I push you. And if it still doesn't work, then we'll call it.
So sometimes it's appropriate to let people know what your stopping point is. But oftentimes, strategically, it doesn't make as much sense because that might be a significant tell you have to determine based on the situation. But I think it's important to recognize that depending on your alternatives, that might be the best option because sometimes the worst outcome is a deal that should have never happened. So walking away always needs to be a viable option for everybody at the table.
Now, when it comes to how to do it, you don't just want to throw your hands up, walk away, and then say, "I'm never coming back." Here's what I say. Based on the way that the circumstances are right now, this isn't a deal that can work for us, but I want to say to you,
If anything changes on your end, Chris, let us know and we would be more than happy to continue the conversation. And similarly, if anything changes on our end, we'll do the same. So that way, if the other side was bluffing and they didn't think you were going to walk away, now you did. Now they don't look like losers coming back to the table. I gave them an out. They can just say, oh man, I talked to my CFO and she told me that we could do X, Y, Z now. Yep, cool. All right, now we're back to it. So they can come back without losing their dignity and respect. They don't lose face.
And similarly, I can do the same because things may have legitimately changed in a couple of weeks and then I could revisit the conversation too. That's amazing. I feel like I just want to go start negotiating something. Are there things you think people don't negotiate but should? Yeah. The bigger the dollar amount, the more there is to negotiate. I remember in law school, I was bored and clearly I just wanted to win. I negotiated a
A $7 lamp on Craigslist. I got it down to five, you know? Okay, that was dumb practice, but it worked. But sometimes there are things that we just take for granted. And so now I mentor kids who are going into law school and I tell them, you can negotiate your scholarship package. 100% of the kids that negotiate their scholarship package get a better deal.
100%. And all they do is they send an email. So anybody listening and you want to negotiate your scholarship package, especially to law school, this is what you do. So you say, hey, I appreciate the scholarship offer and admission. As you know, finances are going to be a major decision for us. And we've received a lot of different offers. And with that, I'm wondering what flexibility do you have on your scholarship offer? And most of the time people, they'll come back and say, yeah, we can give you an extra 5K per year.
They just have it. They just have it. And so that's why asking that simple question, what flexibility do you have? It's magical.
Okay, so scholarships. Are there any other things that people might miss out on the opportunity to negotiate that you've seen success with? Yeah, so we have scholarships. Cars are a big one. We have a car negotiation guide, FYI, for people who might be buying their next car. You can go through that guide and prep. I think the biggest ones that people miss are the everyday negotiations with family and friends. And so...
The definition that we use for negotiation is anytime you're in a conversation and somebody in the conversation wants something. And so with that definition, you're negotiating all the time. Right. And so, for instance, with child care, with my wife, she wanted to have another kid. I said, kids are disruptive. We need to talk about this. Let's figure out what what are these what are these lines going to be? And so for me, with what I do when I'm consulting on deals or doing negotiation trainings, I
or conflict resolution trainings, I have to get on the plane and travel. And so I said, listen, I need to be able to travel at this, at least this many times per month in order for my business to be in a good spot. And so in order for us to do that, we need to figure out what childcare looks like for that to not be
be untenable for you. And so instead of just saying, hey, Kwame, do you want to have another kid? You're outvoted. Your mom, your dad, my mom, and our son want another kid. So do you want another one? I'm like, ah, fine. Okay, we'll do it. You know, that's not a negotiation. We can stop and say, listen, we can do this, but we have to have a conversation about these types of things. And so I don't think enough people recognize that these conversations are not just yes or no.
there's a lot more substance that can be gained through these interactions. So we've talked about a lot of ways that people can improve their skills. Are there any other common mistakes you see people make when they're negotiating?
I think one thing that people miss is the fact that they don't understand the difference between what somebody says that's emotional versus what they really mean. So for instance, if you're really upset, there's a difference between facts and feelings, but they feel the same at the same time.
And so I might say something very emotionally that is factually incorrect, but it feels right at that moment. And so a lot of times people will contend with that and try to chop it down and they would just attack that thing. And then they start to dig their heel in. They start to fight back and they start to fight back, not because it's incorrect, but on principle. And so I think it's important to recognize that we often invite the responses that we want to see the most.
by our own responses. And so that's where the framework comes in handy because your response to the emotions, not the facts. And so the people are able to let go because their ego doesn't get wrapped up in it as much because they don't feel as threatened. But if you make them feel safer emotionally through the process, then they don't feel as though they need to cling on to these ideas so tightly. So earlier you talked about your family and your children. What about negotiating with kids?
Well, here's the thing, Chris, the simpler you keep it, the easier it is. And so I use the framework with my family all the time when I'm on my game, when I'm on my game, I do. That's why it's so good to practice with them because you're usually tired and you're not wanting to do it the right way.
And so I want to focus on that conversational habit. So with Kai, you know, he's five, five year old kids don't want to go to bed. They never do. And so sometimes he'll fight and doesn't want to go to bed. And so I'll just use the framework, uh,
So I would say, Kai, it sounds like you don't want to go to bed right now. No, I don't want to go to bed. Okay, that makes sense. Can you tell me a bit more about that? And he says, no, I don't want to go to bed right now. I want to stay up and I want to cuddle with you and mommy on the couch and watch TV until it gets later, until you all go to bed.
Oh, okay. So it sounds like the reason you don't want to go to bed is because you want to spend time with me and mommy. Is that right? Yeah. No, that makes sense. We like spending time with you. And so he's starting to calm down. Now I cycle to the next thing. So what is it about going to bed that's important?
He said, well, I have to go to bed so I can get smart. Okay, what else? What else is good about getting sleep? He said, well, if I go to sleep, then I could grow up and be big and strong like you. I said, okay, so what do you think we should do right now?
I think I should probably go to sleep. Okay, sounds good, Kai. I'll see you later. Yeah, and you know, it doesn't work every time, but it's all about improving your winning percentage. And I think it's especially powerful with children too, because the way I think about parenting is that I'm parenting towards obsolescence. And what I mean by that is at some point I need to become obsolete. I need to teach him how to become a free thinker and come to conclusions by themselves. And
And when you think about the psychology of self-esteem, self-worth and confidence, things like that, oftentimes they say that you as the parent, your voice in many ways becomes their internal monologue. And so I don't want it to be the judgmental father who's just telling people what to do as a dictator. I want it to be that father.
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Using your children as an opportunity to practice some of these compassionate curiosity tactics sounds like a really good idea. Help them learn to think on their own and maybe avoid some arguments. Are there other tactics you use throughout your day to just practice better communication and negotiation? Yeah.
Yeah. So one of the things that I've really started to practice recently is validation. And validation is a concept that most people don't understand. I know I didn't understand it. I thought I did, but I didn't. So here's an example, Chris, because we hear people say, hey, I want people to hear me. I want to be heard. I want people to listen to me. But the reality is they don't really want that. And
And it sounds very weird to say that people don't want to be heard or listened to, but it's the truth. So watch. So imagine if we're having a conversation and during the conversation, I'm on my phone the whole time. I'm on my phone looking, scrolling, clearly paying attention and using my phone in the middle of the conversation. What will you accuse me of doing next?
During that time, I'm paying attention, not paying attention. You're not listening to me. We feel disrespected. Right. And so we would say the solution is to listen to me. Right. So then what if while looking down at the phone, what if I repeat exactly what you said to me verbatim, just a perfect transcript? How do you feel now?
I've been in this circumstance and my answer is, okay, fine. You were listening, but it doesn't feel like you're really present here right now. Exactly. Right? So we say, yeah, we want to be listened to. We want to be heard, but that's really not what we want. We want something more. And that's what validation is because you can't give people that validation if you haven't listened to them. So listening is part of it, but validation takes it a step further. Validation shows that you care about,
about the other person. That's one piece of it. But validation also, you have to focus on the root word here too of valid, validity. They're also trying to find that validity in what it is that you are saying. So in order to fully validate somebody, you need to, as best as you can, put yourself in their position and see things from their perspective. And I even mean in a physical sense.
because it helps you to understand on a completely different level. So the first time I've really fully understood validation was when I did it with Kai, my son. When he was two, he had this habit that I thought was horrible where he would try to trip me
I'm like, I'm trying to walk places and he's just trying to trip me. And then I looked down at him and he's laughing and smiling. I'm like, why? This is dangerous. What are you doing? Why would you do this to me all the time? So I said, no, Kwame, here's what we're going to do. We're going to look at this through his perspective and his perspective alone. Remove myself from the process.
And so I said, okay, I am not 6'2". I am 2'6". I'm looking up at this giant. And I love this guy. What am I going to do? I'm going to hug him. The only thing I can hug are his legs. That's the only thing I'm close to. So he's not trying to trip me. He's trying to hug me. And that's the best he can do. And once I realized that, I realized this isn't an act of aggression. It's an act of love.
And so it's not until I fully validated what he was doing and actually sought to find the validity and what he was doing and what he was saying that I truly was able to understand. And so validation is something that I'm really, really, really working on trying to see things completely from their perspective, not trying to put myself in their shoes because it doesn't matter.
what I would do if I were in their position. I'm not in their position. I'm trying to figure out, given their upbringing, given how they're seeing the situation, what do they see? What do they think? How do they feel? And once you take it to that next level, that's when you have higher levels of communication and connection. That's great. What about rejection therapy? Any thoughts on using that for practice?
Yes. So I'm a recovering people pleaser. And so rejection was something that I always feared. So I would give in and give people what they want, those type of things.
And so there's a great TED talk called 100 Days of Rejection. And the guy talks about how he, I think it was like an entrepreneur, he was seeking investment and he was afraid of asking for the investment because he didn't want to get rejected. So he would just find different ways to get rejected. So it's asking for things that you don't think you have any right to, you don't think you're going to get, but asking anyways in the hope that you get rejected. So you start to develop a thicker skin.
Because if you start to diminish that fear of rejection, if you start to recognize that there's life after rejection, then it makes you feel a lot better taking that step and being courageous and asking for what you feel like you want and you deserve. And so that's something that I started to do as well. And I had a similar experience as the guy in the TED Talk. You start to get a lot of yeses.
I didn't think this would work. Wow, I was trying to get a no, and you just said yes to me. That's crazy. And so you start to become a lot more resilient, and you start to become a lot bolder when it comes to stepping up and asking for what you want.
Yeah, you can use it at the grocery store. You can use it at any store. I shared in a previous episode, I always use the live chat on any website I'm about to buy something on. And I say, hey, I'm about to check out on your site. Do you have any special coupon codes or discounts? And I'm actually surprised about half the time it works. But...
But so I say, you know, ask for a deal every time. And the worst thing you get is a no. Exactly. Now, don't take it so far that you come across as this cheap person. But I've been using it since I heard you talk about it on your podcast. And it's been fun to see what happens. That's awesome. No, you're absolutely right. Whenever you're in doubt, ask, you know, just try it and ask. But you're absolutely right. You have to consider the context, the circumstances, those type of things.
Because it's better to ask in these transactional type of things where you probably might not see this person again, you know, especially if you're practicing. But yeah, I know some people who try it, but their significant other is nearby all the time. And they're like, please, oh, you're embarrassing me. Don't do it again, please. So you have to use it with moderation for sure.
Yeah, I love a good haggle overseas in a market. And sometimes the thrill of it is more fun than the savings. Yes.
I've had times where I've loved the negotiating so much that I've said, oh, can we get this? How cheap can we get this? And then I'll end up to actually just paying the original price, but I'll just feel so good that I knew I could have paid the lower price. But, you know, I'm in a country where this person, you know, this is their means of income and I've been very fortunate. So I don't necessarily need the discount, but I at least want to try to see if I can get it. And there's something validating to knowing you could get a deal. And then if you leave it on the table, you get
Like I would say 80, 90% of the value of getting a deal by knowing you got it, even if you don't take it. Exactly. 100%. Okay. So slight change of gears. And I'd say this is probably more common at home. You're having a negotiation as you will, but it doesn't always feel like it's necessarily a negotiation in the traditional sense. But, you know, there's a lot of emotions involved and you say something and you immediately realize, okay,
If I had thought a little more, I probably wouldn't have said it like that. Is there something you can do to recover in those situations? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So never underestimate the value of an apology because it fits into the framework too because that's giving somebody some emotional validation, acknowledging and validating the harm that you caused. So when you're giving an apology, the key word that you need to focus on is if versus that, right?
I'm not apologizing if I made you feel bad. No, I'm going to own it. I'm apologizing that I made you feel bad. So...
Let's say we're having a conversation and it gets heated. So to your point, I say something wrong and I just say, listen, Chris, before I move on, I just want to say, I, I, a few minutes ago I said X, Y, Z, and I was wrong. I shouldn't have said that. I'm sorry that I said that. And I hope we can still move forward because think about times when somebody has wronged you in the past. One of the things that you want them to know is like, you hurt me. This is how much you hurt me. And if I don't feel like you get it, you're,
I'm going to ramp up the emotionality until you feel it. Now I'm going to make you feel how much I'm hurt. And a lot of times because of our insecurity with dealing with emotions and sensitive issues, we might have made that mistake and we might recognize that we made a mistake, but we almost say, Hey, you know what? The best way for me to handle this is to not ever talk about it again and pretend like it never happened. And hopefully they forget that.
And they didn't forget. But now what they think is that you are so disconnected from reality that you don't even recognize the impact of what you did. So you have to address it head on and just take it on the chin and say, listen, I shouldn't have said it that way. Or if something's coming out and it's coming out the wrong way, then I say, you know what? Let me pause. Let me rephrase this. It's not...
Lincoln level oration here, but you don't need to be, you know, you don't get style points in difficult conversations. And so if you recognize you're making a mistake, stop and rephrase. If you recognize that you have made a mistake, stop, apologize, and then see if you can continue to move on. That makes a lot of sense.
Okay. In your definition of negotiation, you said anytime you're trying to get something from someone, is that correct? Anybody who's trying to get something from someone, because you might not think it's a negotiation, but they're like, no, this is something I want. This is a negotiation. So then it becomes a negotiation.
So can you negotiate with yourself? I'm glad you asked because the compassionate curiosity framework is a tool that can be used for self-reflection as well, the same direction. So it helps you with your external and internal negotiations. So you can and should negotiate with yourself and you should have that negotiation first.
And so you can think about the reality that a lot of times we don't know what we want, or even if we know what we want, we don't understand why. So negotiating with yourself gives you clarity. And so with that internal negotiation, using the framework, it can be used to help alleviate some emotional distress that you're feeling and
because of the same psychology. And also it can help you to get clarity. So you will acknowledge and validate your own thoughts, feelings, and beliefs. So that's step one. You're doing that for yourself. What do I think? What do I feel in this situation? And you want to get that with as much specificity as possible.
Then you move on to the next step, getting curious with compassion. And so this is when we're asking ourselves these questions, just challenging our assumptions and trying to figure out why it is that we feel this way. But we have to do it compassionately because with self-directed compassion, it allows us to go deeper into introspection because usually we are our own worst enemy. We have a very diminished
meaning and aggressive and judgmental self-voice. And so we need to do that with self-directed compassion so we still stay in the introspective process. And then the last step is joint problem solving. So this is when we are reconciling the differences between our hearts and our minds. So sometimes you want something emotionally. What will it be that I need to do to satisfy myself emotionally? What do I need to have in order to satisfy myself substantively?
Okay, how can I reconcile those two? Because sometimes the best financial move for you might be the worst thing for your heart and soul. Like when you look back on yourself, would you respect the decision that you made, even if it put you in a better financial position?
For some people, the answer is no. Okay then, we have to honor that. That's an important part of you. So how do we adjust this deal to make you feel a little bit better about the decision that you're making? And so going through this introspective process is an integral part of the process because one of the worst things that could happen is you work really hard, you prepare, you have the conversation, it goes well, you get exactly what you want, only to find out three weeks later that emotionally it is untenable.
That's a bad place to be in. Absolutely. And one example that always comes up with money is paying off your house versus investing. And there's this totally valid emotional reason to pay off the house, but there's also a totally valid economic reason you might want to invest instead. And neither choice is right or wrong as long as you make the choice that's right for you. Okay, Kwame, this has been so incredible.
I'm going to put everything in the show notes. I might even try to write a little bit of a summary of the conversation, which I don't normally do, but there were just so many great things. Where can people find you, find your podcast, find more about everything you're working on? Yeah, so if anybody is interested in negotiation and conflict resolution training, or they need help with a specific deal, so deal consulting, check out theamericanegotiationinstitute.com.
and also go to our website to check out those free guides, americannegotiationinstitute.com slash guide. I am assuming that the people listening to this podcast are in fact podcast listeners. So check out some of our shows, Negotiate Anything, Ask With Confidence, and our Spanish language negotiation podcast as well. And then I'm most active on LinkedIn. I'm
always posting and we have a lot of LinkedIn learning courses and things like that. So LinkedIn is the best place to catch me for my social media. And then of course I have Instagram. So people usually follow me so they can see my cute kids. I understand that I'm secondary on those. I've come to terms with it, Chris. I'm sure you're familiar. Very familiar. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here. My pleasure. Thanks for having me, buddy.
Wow, that was amazing. I hope you all enjoyed it as much as I did. I don't think the show notes will do it justice, but hopefully some of Kwame's free guides are helpful.
If you're new to the show and not already subscribed, please go ahead and click subscribe or follow or whatever it says so you can get notified of future episodes. And if you're enjoying the show and haven't left a rating or review in your podcast app, I'd really appreciate it. Leaving one helps others find the show and helps the show grow. Also, thanks to everyone who reached out with questions and their favorite hacks. I love hearing from all of you and I can't wait to include everything in the listener mailbag episode that I keep talking about.
I'd have it out sooner, but I keep having these amazing conversations with guests. And so maybe I'll have to release it as a second episode one week. Anyways, thank you all so much for your support. See you next week.