#187 Dr. Becky Kennedy: The One Thing You Can Say That Changes Everything
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You know, they're like explorers in the world. I mean, that's like how I think about teens. Like that's what their job is. Their job is to explore. They're trying to figure out who they are. Their job is to go through this kind of identity formation phase. And I also think a lot about like the difference between like an explorer and a nomad. And I feel like the big difference is an explorer has a home base. But what I always want parents of teens to know is

It's like your teen still needs you in the most intense way. And they will come back. They need to know you're there, right? Like knowing when you're exploring that your home base is there. Like I think we all know it feels very different than checking for a home base and feeling like it has dissolved, right? And that to me says so much about the connection of teens and parents during these really tricky years. ♪♪

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Today, my guest is clinical psychologist, Dr. Becky Kennedy. She's simply known as Dr. Becky to the millions of people around the world. She's the author of Good Inside, a guide to becoming the parent you want to be. In this conversation, we discuss the eight most important words you can say to your partner or child when they tell you anything that's hard.

Setting boundaries, effective apologizing, regulating emotions, both our own and teaching our kids how to do the same thing. The importance and step-by-step guide to repairing after a blow up with your kids or partner. Addiction, specifically around kids and screens and video games. Building confidence and resiliency and so much more.

After re-listening to this conversation, I was struck by just how much of what we talk about applies to kids, partners, co-workers, and ourselves. Stick around at the end for my reflections. It's time to listen and learn. ♪

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Let's start with a common term that we use as adults and as adults we use with our kids. But I don't know if I have a really good understanding of it, which is what is a boundary? So here's how I define a boundary. And I define it this way because then it's something I can actually assess and I can know if I'm setting one or not. So to me, a boundary is something we tell someone else we will do.

and it requires the other person to do nothing. And so the reason I really, really like that definition is because we can then afterwards say, okay, well, the thing I did, did I tell someone what I will do? And does it require the other person to do nothing? And almost always we say, no, like I actually kind of was asking my kid to clean up, you know, the clothes on their floor, which is something we all have to do. I would say that's a request. We make requests of our kid's

all the time, but learning to really differentiate a request from a boundary is critical and it saves us from the frustration and the cycle of, "My kid doesn't respect my boundary," or, "This person doesn't respect my boundary." And to me, the way I think about boundaries is someone kind of quote, "Might not respect my boundary," but if I am setting a boundary that is dependent on what I'm doing and it is not at all dependent on what someone else does, then I really retain a lot of power and I really like that perspective.

So what would be an example of like a boundary and a relationship that you have with your partner or your spouse and a boundary you might have with a teenager? Let's start with like a moment of frustration. Where, for you, Shane, like where are you frustrated with the spouse or where do you hear you're like, oh, people tend to like get frustrated and want to set boundaries in this way? People disagree on what to do on a Friday night. Great. That's great. Okay. So let's say, um,

you know, I tend to be tired at the end of a week and I want to go to bed early and my partner's like, but I really like to have dinner together and I want to have time together, but I'm so frustrated because I'm like, my husband comes home at like nine o'clock and expects me to like cook dinner then with him and all of a sudden it's 10 and I'm exhausted and I want to connect too, right? But

here's the situation. So I think what we might do is we might say, I really need you to be home by seven. Like, can you get home on seven on a Friday? And then that's a place where we could cook dinner together. And then let's say my husband rolls in at nine and I'm like,

what the heck? Like I told him to have dinner at seven and like he didn't do it and he never listens to me and he doesn't respect me. And we tell ourselves all these stories. To me, I would say in that situation, I was making a request of my husband. I was making a request. And most of the time in our relationships, by the way, we can't always set boundaries. Like we do make requests and hopefully our relationship is strong enough with someone, which we can talk about where they would, you know, when they can honor our request, right? But I'm making a request because the success of

is dependent on my husband coming home at seven, which he just did not do. Here's a very different approach, which I don't always recommend taking, but sometimes we have to take if we feel like we keep getting in situations where we're kind of really unsatisfied. I'd say, hey, the last couple of weeks, we talked about you getting home at seven or trying to, you keep getting home at nine. Look, I don't want to end up in that place again where then I get tired and I get resentful and we get in this fight. I just want to be very, very clear.

I would love to have dinner with you tonight. I really would. And I know for me, if you're not home by seven, cooking together and having that connected moment, it just is not going to then happen in a way that feels good to me. So if you get home by seven tonight, I'm so excited that we can have dinner together. And if you come home at nine, I get it. You will probably find me having already had a bowl of cereal and then reading in my bed, and I won't be able to make dinner. And we can talk about it again next week.

So it's literally laying out what I will do. And then let's say my husband does get home at nine. I might still be upset. I mean, I'd be like, this is such a bummer, you know, but I'm not going to feel so resentful. I'm not going to feel so angry because I laid out two situations based on my needs.

And either way, I have kind of a path I can walk down that's within my control. It doesn't require him to do anything, but at the same time, he has a choice. Yeah. And people say, well, is that just threatening your husband to me? We really underplay like our intention and how that intention then gets really felt by someone. Like I could say the same thing to my husband. I could say, look, and if you're not home by nine, I mean, I mean, if you're not home by seven, you're going to find me in bed.

and I'm not going to have dinner. Like if I said it that way, I feel like he would receive it as like, are you threatening me? Like what's going on? Right? It's very different than, hey, sweetie, like, I don't know, maybe we're crazy busy for you. Like I can respect that too. And if you do get home at nine, I just want to be very clear. I will be in bed because I'm just exhausted by then. And I can't cook and I don't want to feel resentment toward you. And so I need to be with my book at that time. Probably going to fall asleep. And hopefully we can get time together at another point in the weekend. Like,

I think you feel such different intention there, right? So to me, boundaries are not threats. They're actually an assertion of your own wants and needs within your relationship. I feel like in that way, a boundary is a way of saying to someone, here's what I need to still feel good in our relationship. I think that's actually another way to think about it, where so many times people worry my boundary is going to threaten my relationship, maybe with my husband or

I tell my mother-in-law, oh, they can't come over a certain day. But boundaries are really a way of saying this is what I need to continue feeling good in our relationship. And in that way, it's actually a way of inviting someone to maintain closeness with you. I like that. And I really like how you described it. And I want to come back to that after, but I want to hit maybe teens and what would be a good one around screen time, which is something that all parents deal with, I'm sure. Yeah.

Love this. Okay. So when we think we're setting a boundary, but we're really making a request, it might sound like this. Hey, you can go on Fortnite for, I don't even like to name the number of minutes because when I do, people will also be like, oh, my kid does more than that. Is that bad? But let's just say X number of minutes. Okay. You can play Fortnite for X number of minutes. And after that, you know, I want you to turn it off and come to the kitchen.

Now, if you know video games and I know video games, and if you know phones and I know phones, the idea that your kid is going to be able to stop themselves at a certain time is just probably setting everyone up for failure. It's just you get sucked in. It's not about willpower. It gets you addicted. You're in a game. And either way, still, I'm making a request. The success of what I just said to my kid is dependent on them doing this.

If it's so important for me, for my kid to only play Fortnite for X number of minutes, I could say one of two things. Hey, I just wanted to be perfectly clear about what will happen after X number of minutes. If you're still playing and I really don't want to do this, I am going to come in and I am going to take the remote.

And I am going to turn it off. Like, I don't want to get there. I'm sure you don't either. So maybe we should do the whole thing we talked about where you set a timer five minutes before and you actually determine if you have time for another game. So you're not in the middle of it when I turn it off. Or maybe I say, hey, I am going to use a new system. I'm going to use this form of parental controls where your iPad turns off at a certain number of minutes with a five minute warning before. And so at the end of that amount of time, it is going to go off. I just want to let you know that's going to happen.

The success of what I just said is not dependent on my teenager, quote, listening to me. My boundary is now totally within my control.

I like that a lot. And I love the way that you explain this to them. How do you learn how to do that? And it both when you were talking to your, your fictional sort of partner around, hey, I really want to have dinner with you. If you're not home at this time, it probably means we're not going to have dinner together. I'm not going to be able to do that. You know, how do you learn how to talk like that if it's not modeled for you as a child?

Like, how do you as an adult learn how to communicate in that way? Which when you say it, that strikes me as so effective. But whenever I want to talk about something like this in my head, it never comes out that good.

I love that question. And there's a couple of ways I want to answer it. So first of all, to me, inherent in your question actually was like the idea of like learning in general. I don't know. We all learn a lot of stuff by the time we're adults that my guess is, is not inherent to us. Right. I mean, most of the things we've learned aren't inherent. It's not actually inherent to learn how to swim. Like if you don't.

learn how to swim, you'll be an adult who can't swim. There's plenty of adults who can't swim. It doesn't just come to you with age. I think actually that's one of the most powerful things I think about is like age does not teach skills, right? People are like, at what point will my kid no longer engage in X behavior at what age? I'm like, well, what are you doing in these years? You know, like either in this amount of time or never, depending on what we do, right? So just like you can teach someone to swim or you can teach someone a new language, like

We can all learn more effective ways to communicate. And it's just in the realm of things that we often don't think of as a skill. Like for some reason, we think I should either know how to do that or I'm not an effective communicator, but someone else should just get what I'm trying to say instead of thinking, oh, like, how could I learn this? I think there's a lot of practice that's involved. Now, more concretely than that,

I think what you're noticing in the way I modeled those two kind of boundary setting situations. First of all, let me just say, like, if you think I would actually say that in the heat of the moment to my kids, like I wouldn't. Like my husband's like listening to this thing, like,

Can you please talk to me like that? Because you don't sound that nice. So please, listeners, do not think... He's going to leave a comment on YouTube. I don't think I do this all the time. Okay. But when we are kind of upset with someone or have been frustrated with someone, we have the tendency to approach them in a very adversarial way. And then how we think about someone affects how we communicate to them. So it's...

if I was like, my husband doesn't respect me and my husband cares more about work than he does about my relationship, then you know what I'm going to say to him? Hey, if you're not home by seven, I'm just, you know, not going to be waiting for you because I have things to do in my life too, right? Of course, because that's the mindset I'm in. And I think this is such a general point and I'll share it because I think it's applicable to every life situation that when you're in conflict with someone, you're in one of two mindsets and I'm a very visual person. So I'll explain it visually.

You're either sitting on one side of the table and you're looking at them as if they're sitting on the other side of the table, kind of how I'm looking at you. And I'm looking at you like you are the problem. And so I'm on one side of the table, you're on the other side of the table, and I'm looking at you like you are the problem. The other mindset we can be in is I'm on one side of the table. And let's say, Shane, you're sitting next to me on the same side of the table.

And together, we are looking at a problem. I actually think this is like profound, because to me, nobody should ever communicate with anybody until you get yourself in that second mindset. We often think, what are the words? What do I say? What's the script? At the end of the day, the mindset's going to win, right? Or the script won't be effective because you're in an adversarial mindset and the person will feel that, right? And so I think the kind of

biggest skill is recognizing what mindset am I in? And I think we have a lot of clues to that. Like even when we start to think about the person we want to talk to, we can even notice the language we're using, right? Like, oh, my husband doesn't respect me. He's always at work. Like he doesn't even care about our relationship. I definitely know what mindset I'm in, right? If I'm in the second mindset, I'd probably be saying like,

wow, he's really overloaded at work. And, you know, I miss him. Right? Maybe I say that I really miss my husband. I wonder if I've ever told him that that's very much like me and my husband are on the same side of the table. And we're kind of looking at the problem of, you know, not being as connected as we used to be. It's kind of like, it's now all of a sudden, also, I feel different that mindset. Like, I honestly feel sad just saying that to you right now. Like, oh, it's

And maybe my husband feels that way. Maybe he's not even aware that he feels that way, but maybe he does. And maybe he's nervous about his job and he feels like he's gonna get fired. And he thinks he's gonna let me down if he does that 'cause he's the breadwinner. I'm making these things up. But when I'm in a me and you against a problem mindset, we communicate completely differently. Same with our teen, right? Like me versus you and a simple thing could be, you never pick up the towel. Like how many times I told you to pick up a towel? Like you see the towel on the ground.

Like, just pick it up and put it in your bathroom, hang it up versus, hey, look, we both know towels on the floor. Like, we both know that's not where they go. And you're a responsible kid. Like, and I know you have heard what I've said. So there must be something getting in your way of remembering. Like, there must be. Because I don't think you look at the towel and think, I'm going to piss off my mom. Like, I really don't think that's happening. So can we figure this out together? Like, what would make it easier for you to remember? Yeah.

Like I actually had this with my own, my 12 year old son recently. And he's like, mom, it's so funny. I walk out of my room. I don't even see the towel. Like I just, I don't even see it. Like, I guess I drop it and then I don't even see it. And I was like, oh, that's really interesting. What do you see? I just said, he's like, I mean, I just see the wall and I see my door. And I was like, oh, that actually gives me an idea. I don't know if it gives you the same idea. Like what would you need to jog your memory? And he goes, I mean, I guess I could just like put up a post out my door that says pick up my towel.

I know it sounds so silly, but like I could cry. And I was like, that's an amazing idea. Like, and he did it. And he just like, he did it. He literally just like wrote in his old handwriting because he's 12 and I don't have to do that for him. And he put it on his door. And does he pick it up every time? He does not. Does he pick it up massively more often? Yes. But the only way we get there is by kind of assuming good intent, being on the same team. And together we were kind of looking at this towel on the floor problem versus me looking at my son,

Kind of like he's an asshole who is the problem. Yeah, it's kind of like you're not doing what I want. Therefore, we're in this adversarial situation. But I don't see what's going on inside you, right? I don't see, you know, the partner at work who's worried about their job because these are all things that are sort of inside somebody that aren't communicated. And for kids and teens especially, I would imagine they're going through so much already in life.

with school, with friends, with their body changes. And we don't see any of that. We're just like, why can't you pick up a towel? Like what's wrong with you? That's right. But there's nothing wrong with them. Yeah. And you know, I think there's so much more there too. Like my son probably doesn't care about his towel on the floor. And I don't know if something's so bad going to happen if his towel is on the floor. It's probably not. Like, I don't think the world's going to end. I don't think his, you know, room is going to be ruined. It just is my preference. And

So really we're saying, well, why would my kid start caring about something he doesn't care about and his mom does care about? And that actually has everything to do with just

kind of the strength of our relationship in that moment. And, you know, it's kind of why any of us do things we don't want to do, but other people care about because we just feel close to them. And like, we like, you know, taking care of their needs sometimes. Right. And so, so much of that and approaching a teen in that, like, hey, I respect you. Like, here's the situation. Let's think through it together. That's the only way you're going to get to a productive solution anyway, because teenagers inherently, they don't care about their towel on the floor. They don't care about their

They don't care about, you know, being on their phones longer than we want them to be. And so the status of our relationship with our kids and our partner, it's really core to like everything. Parenting teens is tricky. I'm just, what are the indications that you have a really strong relationship with your teen? And why?

What are the indications that it's going the wrong way and you should probably intervene before it gets really bad? It's a good question. You know, my first reaction, like the loudest thing in my mind, I think a lot of parents have a sense of like how they're like they just have like an inherent sense of like how close am I to my teen? How are things going? You know, I guess in one way.

It feels like every interaction is a ton of conflict. It's just like a series of misunderstanding. And I think that doesn't feel great to either. I guess in the middle is like, well, we don't have any overt conflict, but like, do we do we talk about things like do I know about the things that are going on in their life? Would they come to me if they were struggling?

Would they come to me if they were struggling with something that they worry could, quote, get them in trouble? Right. You know, I think I think a lot about attachment in relationships, right, not attachment parenting, but the idea that how kids attach to connect to their caregivers, their parents, right.

really forms the foundation for a lot of different things in their life, for how they're able to regulate emotions, for how they think about themselves, for how they build confidence and resilience, actually the model they take into adulthood about what a healthy relationship is, right? There's so many things. And when our kids are teens, what's really, really tricky is

they're like explorers in the world. I mean, that's like how I think about teens. Like that's what their job is. Their job is to explore. They're trying to figure out who they are. Their job is to go through this kind of identity formation phase. And as we remember from when we were younger,

The way you start to form your identity when you're a teen is actually through a lot of separation from your parents. That's actually, though, your job. Your job is actually to start to separate from them. And a lot of teens, most teens, they overshoot, just like we did. But you have to kind of overshoot distance to be like, I am nothing like my parent. And if my parent tells me a rule, the quickest way to figure out my own person is to just, like, reject it, even if it makes sense for me. It's just like, you know, you kind of overshoot.

But if I go back to the idea of like teens being explorers, because they do, they try out so many things. They kind of need to explore away from their home country. Right. I also think a lot about like the difference between like an explorer and a nomad. And I feel like the big difference is an explorer has a home base. And I have the chills as I say that, like they have a home base to come back to. And just knowing they have a home base gives them a lot of confidence in their exploration or a nomad or

It doesn't really have a home base. And when I think about teens and parents, I think a lot about that. Like a teen's job is to explore. A parent's kind of in the home country. I'm like also feeling lost a lot. Like where's my kid who like used to want to talk to me more, who used to like be around more. I used to be their primary focus. But what I always want parents of teens to know is

It's like your teen still needs you in the most intense way because they cannot be a nomad in life. Like that is not what they're looking for. And they will come back. They need to know you're there, right? Like knowing when you're exploring that your home base is there.

like I think we all know, feels very different than checking for a home base and feeling like it has dissolved, right? And that to me says so much about the connection of teens and parents during these really tricky years. As you were saying that, I just had this thought that maybe it's weird, but I want to check this with you. I'm home every day when my kids get home from school. I have been since they were in elementary school. I do the same thing now that they're basically in high school, much to their dismay.

Right. This is like and you were talking and you were like, they have to be away from their parents. They have to get this time away. And so when they come home from school, it's like I'm there.

And is that a good thing or a bad thing? Or like, how do you think about that? I mean, I don't think it's a good thing or a bad thing. First of all, they're away from you. They're in school. They have their whole world, you know. And so I think that's a lot of the ways they start to explore. And kids also, by the way, they explore in their thoughts. They explore by, you know, engaging and listening to music that their parents hate or, you know, entertaining ideas. Right. So it's not doesn't just have to be physical separation.

I feel mixed about a parent who's always there. First of all, parents are like, I'm at work. I'm not there. Am I messing up my kids? No. I frankly, you know, I'm often...

at my office, you know, when my kids come home. So there's not one right way. You know, I think it's a dance, you know, and I think about this a lot with my own childhood. And I've talked about this a lot with my mom because we mom in very different ways. Like, you know, I do now and she did then. She was always there. Like, I feel like she was someone who was always there. Right. And like down to I remember days in like middle school or high school, even when I was older, I was like, oh, I forgot the lunch I wanted at home. And she'd be like, I am driving it to you right now. You know, like it was just always there.

And one of the things we reflected on a lot together, and it actually kind of relates to confidence so we can, you know, bring it all together as always happens, is I feel like I could have benefited a little more from like, mom's not available right now.

And kind of like, and I know like not having my lunch is just one example. It's a tiny example. But even that small example, like, I know I would have been like, oh, I guess I have to go to the cafeteria. And I guess I have to like find something or I don't know, maybe I would have remembered to like pack it the next day, like in an even, you know, bigger way, because I don't want to have that happen again.

I think on the other side, right, especially as kids get older, it's so easy to do what I call like taking the bait from teens. Like, you don't understand me and I don't want to be with you anymore. I just want to be my friends and get your own life and get out of my room. And parents are like, I guess my kids don't care. So like, I'll never be home when they're home. And, you know, they slam the door in my face. And so it's on them to like, you know, say something to me and I'm going to kind of give them silent treatment until they do.

Both extremes, I think, like any extremes, can hold kids back. And I think we want to give kids at every age room to be on their own and kind of the trust in that. And I think kids benefit so much from that distance.

But they only benefit from that distance when they kind of have internalized and still kind of have access most times to that kind of secure base. So I'm not trying to get out of the question, but I really do think it's this dance. Because if I think about my own childhood and I think about like, I feel like my secure base is with me all the time. And as I got older, it was like, well, is that me? Was that my parents? Like, I think it took me longer to trust myself even now amidst uncertainty and struggle and

You know, it's still something I work on with myself because I feel like I did almost have this, you know, system so close all the time that I'm that I probably didn't learn to, like, trust myself that I could really figure things out and get through things in a way that, you know, could have been really helpful to me. So that leads naturally into sort of confidence and specifically resiliency. What can we do as as parents of teenagers to

to build that resiliency other than, I mean, obviously giving our kids room to fail and opportunities to struggle. Aside from that, what is it that we can do? And like, are there specific things that we can do that you're like, oh, this is a great way to let your 14 or 15 year old fail or struggle or. I mean, I think there are kind of very, very related concepts, you know, confidence and resilience, but

I'll start with kind of framing up confidence because I think the way I think about it is a little different. And again, if we're ever trying to build a trait, I think we have to be like so clear about what the trait is or else we're going to be building something in a direction that might not be so productive. Well, let's define them both then, confidence and resilience. Yeah. So to me, confidence, I think people think about confidence as like feeling good about yourself. And like, I think that could not be further from what confidence is. To me, confidence is self-trust, which I think is very different from feeling good about yourself. And

In a related way, you know, I think often like confidence isn't feeling like the best at something. It's feeling like it's okay to be you when you're not the best at something. And it's like trusting yourself in those moments. So like I said to you earlier, I don't like to have ideas without actionable strategies because I can't operate that way. So let's like play out some situations, right? And I think this will drive it home. So your kid comes home.

And they're like, I'm the only one of my friends who didn't make the football team. I don't know, I'm making this up, right? I'm the only one of my friends. It's so embarrassing. I'm the only one who didn't make the football team. And I think we think that like what we need to say to our kid there or what they're looking for, or even like, I want to build my kids confidence. They seem so not confident now because they're like, I'm the only one who didn't make it. I stink. And like, you know, is well, like,

you're the only one who made varsity basketball. You know, they all made JV. And like, you're the only one who was on varsity basketball or like you're an honors math. And, you know, we like say these things like that. And if we think about confidence as self-trust, then if we break down that situation, a kid is coming to us saying, I feel sad and disappointed. And we're saying to them, no, you don't. Right. And I'm an imagery person, as you can see. So to me, this idea of like the feelings bench really, really,

like brings us to life and gets really concrete and palpable for parents to use then in their homes. So,

our kids, you know, are feeling down like they often do. You know, they didn't get a good grade in a test or someone broke up with them or now their friend's dating the person that they liked or they didn't make the football team or, you know, they're jealous of their brother who's, you know, always doing X, Y, Z and they can't, whatever it is. And to me, the image I want parents to think about is like, my kid in life is like in a garden that's full of benches. That's like life, okay, in this metaphor. And in this moment, they're

they're sitting on the bench of, and I don't know, maybe this is the bench of I didn't make the football team. Or maybe if we generalize, it's the bench of something didn't go my way or I'm disappointed or I'm embarrassed. You know, probably all of those things come up.

They're sitting on that bench. And as parents, we often have two urges. One is one I named. We kind of tell them their bench isn't their bench, right? Or we like see a sunnier bench in the garden. It's like the bench of, well, you made varsity basketball. And we're like, just come, like come with me, right? Just come with me to that bench because it's sunnier. But that does a couple of very unintended things to kids. Number one.

They have a feeling of being disappointed. The feeling's already registered in their body. And when kids are young, they're actually just learning about their feelings. They're like, am I allowed to have certain feelings? How do I cope with certain feelings? And a lot of how they learn that is through their relationship with us. And then they actually take those lessons into adulthood.

And so when our kids feeling disappointed, one of the things they learn when we kind of tell them their bench isn't their bench or tell them they should be on some other bench is like, oh, I guess I'm not supposed to feel disappointed. And they also learn this feeling that feels very overwhelming to me, like is actually very overwhelming to my parent. Like they don't even want me to feel this way. I guess it's dangerous. Like I guess I shouldn't feel that way.

Now, I don't think either of us know any adult in life who's gotten rid of disappointment. Like you're going to feel disappointed when you lose a job. You're going to feel disappointed when someone breaks up with you. And you're even, you're going to feel disappointed when your flight has a delay, right? And how you cope with those things doesn't start in adulthood. How you cope with those things comes from your history of how you learned to cope with those things in your earliest years when you were wiring circuitry around your emotions in your body.

And so the reason so many adults have so many difficulties regulating their emotions and they're older actually comes from these early years. So if we go back to what is far superior, right? Or not far superior, it feels judgmental. If we go back to what I would encourage a parent to do, not only to build coping skills and resilience, but also confidence, okay? As I think about three lines, and I'm going to be super concrete to me, these are three lines that like parents should like write down, they should like commit to memory, and

they should also use with their partners because they're just good relationship lines. When someone tells you something disappointing, like I didn't make the football team. It sucks. I'm so embarrassed. I'm the worst football player. Number one, just, I am so glad you're talking to me about this. Like it is the most beautiful first line to say to someone when they're upset, because what you're deeply saying to them and how they receive it is like, I am interested in the part of you who's feeling this way. The part of you who's feeling this way is connectable to me.

Like, I want to hear more about it. I will attach to this part of you. And when you tell that to someone, they're automatically willing to tell you more because it's like an opening of a door. Like, I imagine someone went to a boss and they were like, I really feel like I deserve a promotion. If the boss is like, I'm so glad you're talking to me about this. Like, even if the boss says no, like, you're going to be like, wow, that was a great conversation, you know? So, and when you're doing that, what I want parents to imagine is like, you're just sitting on the bench next to your kid.

That's literally what you're doing. You're just sitting down. You're not saying that bench isn't their bench. You're not taking them out. You're just sitting down. And then the second line that I think is the ultimate confidence builder, if confidence is self-trust, is just, I believe you. Yeah, I went to the list and my name wasn't on it. And like, they literally were all high-fiving. And then I was like the only one not, you know, not doing that. And they all looked at me with such pity. And it was like the worst day of my life. I believe you.

When you say I believe you to someone, you're not saying I agree. That was the worst day of your life. You're literally just saying I believe the things you're telling me. I believe your feelings are valid and real. And then the third line is just tell me more. And I think often with parents, they'll say like, okay, and then what? And then what?

And I love this question. And I'm such like a fixer too. But like, and then nothing. And then you've done, you have literally crushed parenting that moment. You should be like, I'm done for the rest of the day. I'm gonna eat bonbons and watch some Netflix. I just, and you massively built your kids' confidence. Because if we think about kids when they're older, you want kids when they're feeling tricky things to be like, yeah, I really do feel this way. I really am upset that my partner said that thing to me. I really,

really am disappointed that I didn't get that job, right? I really am angry that I was promised, you know, I don't know, a raise and didn't get it, right? Learning that you can trust your emotions actually is the core of how you regulate your emotions and how you make good decisions because you can use your energy around, okay, what do I do next? Instead of all the energy of like trying to figure out what's going on inside you. And so to me, that's really what confidence is. And because if someone can feel like their parents are

are able to tolerate their disappointment, then what the kid really learns is like, I can still be me when I'm disappointed. I'm still like a valuable person. This feeling clearly is like an acceptable part of me. It's not all of me. I don't have to fight to get rid of it. That's really how we build confidence. One common thing that I see with my kids, and I'm sure other kids, and it drives me insane. There's like a few triggers I have. And one of them is laziness.

The other is in that situation, I'll relate it to they come home, they get a bad score on a test or an assignment and they blame something exterior to themselves. The teacher didn't communicate clearly. I saved the document, but it didn't save my edits. It's absolving them of responsibility

And fault in that moment. And how do we deal with that as parents where it's like, because that that trait, that single trait, if it takes root, can be so detrimental in life, where you become a victim of circumstance instead of the master of your circumstances.

I'm so big on personal responsibility too. And so that's like triggering for me too, from like a personal standpoint. So I joined you in that. So I think first, and I always think this is true, like we have to understand before we intervene. Like that to me, every workshop I do, that's like,

you know, about problem behaviors or sleep or, you know, rudeness. Like that's always the first section. And parents, it's always so interesting because they'll take this workshop and they'll say, oh my goodness, like everything feels better in my home. And I'm like, I don't even get to the strategies yet because we underestimate how many of our issues with our kids or any relationship actually comes from not understanding. And as soon as we understand something, it's amazing. It's like, we immediately feel better. So I think first it's like, well, why is my son doing that? He, why is he saying, well, it didn't save or, well, the teachers asked, well,

All these questions that they said wouldn't even be on the test, right? They say something like that, right? And I think it's really important to get curious there. Like why would my kid do that? And to me, the reason like everything I do, the company, the membership is called Good Inside is because to me, that's like the principle that allows us to be curious about our kids. Our kids are good inside. So why would my good kid kind of like totally shirk responsibility? And it's really separating who they are from their identity, they're a good kid, from certain behavior, which is something that happened.

right? When we are most frustrated with our kids, it's because we've collapsed the two. My kid is just kind of like a shitty kid who doesn't take under sensibility versus I have a good kid who is struggling with something. So I think one of the best ways I can be curious about my kids is I'm like, well, why would I do that? Why would I be in a situation where instead of being like, oh my goodness, I was late and I should have left earlier. I was like, you have no idea about the traffic and you have no idea about the car in front of me. Oh my goodness. Right? So I'm just making this up now, but

Oddly enough, I think I would do that when I felt so bad. I felt both simultaneously like so guilty and so unable to like tolerate that guilt. And this is actually going to circle back to the idea of separating identity and behavior. Oddly enough, kids tend to – kids shirk responsibility and kind of seem unwilling to reflect on their role of things when they equate a certain outcome with

with kind of being an indication of who they are. So let me like say that in a better way that's like clearer. So like if your son thinks like I got out, let's say I got like a whatever it is, a 70 on this test. If when he gets a 70, what happens inside him is like, I'm so stupid. I can't believe like I got a 70 in math. That will make him tell the story. Well, my teacher asked about things that were unfair because he can't tolerate the idea that he's like a stupid kid at math. Nobody can tolerate that idea.

And actually, so the first step is like trying to help our kids separate. Wait, like you're a good, smart kid who clearly like got a not so great thing great on the test. Right. And when we're able to separate who we are from what we do, we're actually remarkably able to take responsibility for our behavior because it's no longer an indication of our identity. So, OK, if that's part of the understanding, I know for me in my own, I'm like, OK, so what do I do? Like, I don't still understand what to do.

In that moment, what strikes me is what's happening for a kid is actually shame. That's what's happening. A kid feels ashamed. Shame is actually when we use our behavior as an indication of our identity. It just all collapsed. It's like this bad thing means I'm a bad person.

And the hardest thing about shame when it's present, and I write about this in the book, is like you have to change your goal. And it's like it's so frustrating because if that's my kid, what I want to say to him is, okay, stop saying that. Just stop saying that. Like, okay, maybe that's true, but like some kids did well on the test and like you probably could have studied. You probably could have gone to the teacher before and asked a few questions. And like if you keep saying that, you'll never learn. Like you just want to like lecture. You want to like just get through it. The thing about shame –

It's a freeze response. It's like an animal defense state. Like we talk a lot about fight or flight, but there's other animal defense states too. Right. And one of them is freeze. Right. And so if someone's frozen, you can't like get them out of that until it started to thaw a little bit.

And so as a parent, instead of trying to go through it, your only goal in the moment, and this is going to be like remarkably ungratifying, I'm just warning you, is to have to de-shame the moment first. You have to switch your goal from getting through to your kid and teaching a lesson to lowering shame so your kid is actually in a place

where they're unfrozen, at which point they can learn. So if that's my kid, I'm going to tell you what I would do, except again, like, I don't know if I'd really do this, but the ideal Becky would do this. My kid says this to me. I'd probably say in the moment, I hate when that happens. Oh, that's the worst.

Right. Because I even think about me. If I showed up for this podcast with you late, Shane, I was like, you have no idea about traffic. Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. It was so bad. And my commute was awful. If you're like, that is the worst. Oh, I had that happen to me once, too. I really do think the next thing I would say to you would be like, I'm sorry, I should have left earlier.

Where if you're like, I mean, Becky, look, we only have a little bit of time and like maybe there's traffic, but like you really could have just, I don't know, left your apartment earlier and gotten to the studio. I know what I'd say back is like, he doesn't even understand traffic. The traffic was so bad.

I would have gotten. So it's paradoxical, but it's so effective. And you can de-shame by just actually saying like, oh, that's the worst. It's usually pretty simple. Or to me, like one of the most beautiful strategies, it's hard to even call it a strategy. It's just, I call it like, did I tell you about the time? But it's just like leveling with your kid about a story from your own childhood that was just like that. Oh, that makes me think about

when I was in seventh grade. It's not the same, but like, I remember the science test. I was like, what? This question's on and this question's on. And you can kind of watch. I'm going to kind of like do a little trick here. And part of me was like,

I guess I could have studied that, but the teacher never told me and the teacher never even told me. And so, oh, something like that happened to me too. And so what you're doing in the moment is you're actually just reconnecting with your kid. You're actually prioritizing connection. Connect first is like the principle we all want to try to do as often with our kids, not because we're soft, but actually because it's effective if you want to get anything done. Right. So I'm just connecting. I'm de-shaming. I'm connecting.

And once I form that connection with my kid and they've kind of unfrozen a little bit, I can then enter into like a different conversation, but it just has to happen later than we want it to. One of the things I wanted to come back to outside of the world of teens and maybe inside the adult world here is you said earlier, how do you

how we think about someone affects how we communicate with them. I want to relate that to how we think about ourselves and that inner voice we have and how we, the stories we tell ourselves and what are the common ways that we sort of

self-sabotage or get in our own way with these stories that we're telling ourselves. And we're not being kind to ourselves and we're not being gentle. And that has all of these other sort of implications. Like how can I treat you nicely if I don't even treat myself nicely? Yes. I mean, there's so many examples of that, right? And I think most of us

We can get into the causes, but most of us have learned to wire struggles next to blame. They're like very, very close in our circuitry. And I say blame because it's often a combination of other blame and self-blame. I think blame is often a two-way street. Like some of us may be

you know, specialize more in self-blame, some of us in other blame, but usually it's a seesaw. Like it's, you know, and so when something's hard or something doesn't go our way, right? Maybe I yelled at my kid, right? And then I, all of a sudden I'm like, I'm a monster. I'm the worst parent. I messed up my kid forever. It's just like huge spiral. Or I did a presentation at work and my boss said something that like, I don't know if it was critical, but it was kind of ambiguous. And I leave and I'm like, my boss thinks I'm so stupid. And like, oh my goodness, I'm going to get fired. And we just, like you said, we start to

telling ourselves stories. And then those stories like start to influence, of course, they influence how we feel. They influence then the next action we take that usually is just kind of further reifying that story or really that interpretation. And we can really get off to the races, right? Another image I want to share, right? Because I think this is really one of my favorites and it really illustrates what we're talking about. It's like if you picture yourself as the driver of a car, we all have multiple passengers in our car.

Right. So like some of us have imposter syndrome as like a very, very noisy passenger. Some of us have it's all my fault. Some of us have the world is going to end and everything is going to go badly. Right. We get into problems not when those things are our passengers. We get into problems and those things take over the driver's seat.

And actually, a lot of us, when we're aware of those voices, we try to get them out of our car. Like we do. We're like, I shouldn't feel that way. Or I know my boss doesn't actually think I'm stupid. Why am I thinking that? We either fight the voice or it kind of takes over us. Like that's usually what happens. When I actually think mental health

It's not about getting those voices out of our car. They're there. They're not going anywhere. But actually just like talking to them when they're in the passenger seat to ensure that they don't take over the driver's seat, right? So for example, not first of yelling at my kids, I may be like, oh, there's the I messed up my kid forever again voice. Hi, you...

It's unfortunate, but you do tend to come up whenever I make a little mistake with my kid. And like, okay, I'm just going to come back to today. Like it is 2024. And, you know, I don't really know what the next 80 years, you know, kind of hold, but I'm pretty sure what I did today did not, you know, mess up my kids forever. And I know you'll say that again to me, but I'm just going to kind of keep you in the backseat.

Right. Or, oh, OK, I don't even feel great about my presentation and my boss to do this. But there's that my boss hates me voice. And it's true. Whenever I even doubt myself a little bit, I do tend to also think that my boss is about to fire me. Right. And all of a sudden now I'm actually in a relationship.

with these stories, right? Or with these parts, I would call them these parts. And as soon as you're in a relationship with a part of you, inherently that part of you can't take over you because you in the driver's seat are like talking to it. And to me, that's what I actually teach adults and parents like all the time. It's honestly like some of my favorite interventions to teach kids how to do that when they're young. I think it's like one of the most important skills I could take into adulthood with them because I think those are some of like the ultimate coping skills in life.

One of the other things we talked about earlier, and I'm sort of going down a couple of rabbit holes because we sort of covered a lot of ground really quickly, was regulating emotions. And not only do we as adults and parents have to teach our kids or help them better regulate their own emotions, we have to often learn how to regulate our own emotions. How do we do that? I get this question from parents often, right? Because...

The way kids learn how to regulate emotions is through their relationship with their parents, right? It's not something you could get taught in a textbook. And it's not to say when we get older, if we didn't have a lot of those early experiences that helped us learn how to regulate our emotions, which most adults I know, a lot of them didn't, it doesn't mean we can't get there. But our kids, right, they kind of borrow our regulation in a moment and they kind of absorb it. And like I was saying before, they kind of over time learn, right?

Oh, my emotion inside me that feels so scary to me is less scary to someone else. And they kind of absorb that hope and they absorb that kind of tolerance. And that really forms the foundation for so many of their coping skills. So parents will say to me, OK, I actually get that. How can I do that for my kid if I can't, if I really do struggle to regulate my own emotions? It seems like I'm teaching my kid and myself at the same time.

And we are. And like, that is just kind of the hand a lot of us are dealt. And it's not an impossible hand. It's not an easy hand, but it's definitely a winnable hand. Like, I know that and I've seen it now with millions of adults who are, you know, winning a lot of their hands. And so I think there's a couple like concrete ways as adults that we can, you know, start to learn how to better regulate our emotions, right? Number one to me is just the word curiosity. Like, being curious about yourself is a foundation, right?

to regulating your emotions because it's the difference between saying, um,

My kids whining, like who can stay calm when they whine all day? Like, are you saying people like whining? I have to get to a place where I like whining. No, nobody likes whining. Literally nobody likes whining, but there's a big difference between not liking whining and I don't know, reacting and being in a state of reactivity with screaming at our kids versus not liking whining and being able to regulate our emotions and respond to our kid from a place of groundedness and sturdiness, right? Still, nobody likes it, but it's very different.

And curiosity to me gets us from point one to point two, because instead of saying like, what's wrong with my kid and why are they acting the way they're acting? We might say, what's going on inside of me? What's going on for me? What is happening inside me? That is kind of a component of this reaction, right? The idea that my kid's whining isn't inherently making me scream at them. It's a trigger.

But there's a story inside me. There's something that happens inside my body that frankly predated my kids' existence. So if I can get curious about that, right, then I can actually make a lot of progress. And to me,

I think it's so easy to hear that and someone say, oh, so it's my fault. No, like, I don't know where I feel like we're obsessed with the word fault. Like, it's not your kid's fault. It's not your fault. Like, why does it have to be anyone's fault? Like, I don't know why it's like, it's just, this is happening. Either we can be curious and like learn and through that learning, probably, you know,

live in a way that's more in line with our values, feel more in control of ourselves. Like your kid's going to benefit, but I promise you as the adult are going to benefit in areas like way more, like everybody wins. Right. And so I always say to parents, this isn't a system of like saying, this is your fault. It's a system of saying like, this is actually a place for your empowerment and to like finally learn skills and skills always help us feel, you know, more powerful. So one of my favorite emotion regulation skills to teach adults is

It's something I call AVP. Okay. And it's like the simplest thing and has the most profound impact on people. Okay. So AVP stands for acknowledge, validate, permit. So I'll teach each part. Step one to regulating emotions is acknowledging them. And actually, this is a really good point of the conversation relative to what we just said about this image in the car. So let's say, you know, my kid is whining. Step one, acknowledge like, well, I'm feeling really annoyed.

right? Like in a way what I'm doing is like I'm the driver of my car and annoyance in the backseat is like starting to kind of make its way to the driver's seat. And I'm like, hey there, hey. And that's literally what I'm doing. I actually use the word high a lot because it always makes me laugh. And to me, if I could add levity to like that process, it gets easier. So I'm like high annoyance or high anxiety, right? Or something like that. So step one is just acknowledge. You can acknowledge by using a quote feeling word like high annoyance or high sadness. A lot of people don't

like really know the name of their feelings and that's totally fine. And you can also do it in a more general way. Like I'm feeling uncomfortable right now. Or I feel like I'm about to explode right now. I'm feeling tight right now. Any acknowledgement. Two is validate.

And to me, the best way that our body, I think, likes to be validated, I don't know why, is the term makes sense. I think there's something where feelings feel like accepted by logic in our body when we use that term. I don't know. I haven't asked, but I think that's what's happening. So I'd be saying, I'm really, really annoyed right now. Or, you know, when my kid was whining and I'd say to myself, well, that makes sense. Like whining is pretty annoying. It makes sense that I feel that way. That is logic.

a hugely helpful phrase in regulating our emotions because the reasons our emotions get unregulated, right, is that they are exploding out of our body in our behaviors. They literally, if you think about these moments of reactivity, when I yell or, right, the emotion is like coming out of my body and like through my mouth, right? It's kind of like a volcano, right?

The opposite of that isn't suppressing emotions because you just can't beat them. So it's always, you know, an unwinnable thing.

you know, endeavor. But we're kind of saying when you regulate an emotion, like it's okay to live inside your body. Like it can just live there. It doesn't have to explode out of you. It can live inside there. Like it has a place, it has a home. So if you think about those two steps already, like first I'm saying hi to it. Like if you're saying hi to someone at a party, like maybe you don't love them, but you're probably like okay with them being there because you said hi. And then you're telling, you're feeling like it kind of makes sense that you're here. And then P is permit, which actually just involves saying to yourself, I give myself full permission to be feeling this way.

Right. So another example of going through an AVP would be like, I'm feeling really anxious right now. I'm really, really worked up. And, you know, that makes sense. Like I am managing my kids soccer schedules and, you know, I'm thinking about what they need for dinner. And I didn't respond to that email. And I think tomorrow is going to be a snow day. And then my kids are going to have canceled school and pay permit. Right. I give myself permission to be feeling this way. And I think a kicker at the end is just adding the phrase and I can cope with it and I can cope with it.

I, you know, interesting enough, you're catching me on like last night I was walking in Times Square and as I do, I film videos myself for Instagram when I'm like on my, on the way to the subway. So I was like filming myself and this guy saw me. He's this 28 year old guy stopped me. He goes, I'm a 28 year old man. I'm unmarried and I don't have kids. And he goes, and I like, I'm so excited to see you. He's like, you're like a celebrity to me. And he goes, literally he goes,

AVP has changed my life. That's what he said. He goes, AVP has changed my life. I'm reparenting myself. I know I never learned what some people learned in their childhood, and I need to kind of reparent myself through those skills. And AVP has like, you know, changed my life. And so there's a couple ways to use it. If regulating your emotions is new for you,

You can't expect yourself to start to regulate your emotions when you're in your most heightened emotions. That would be like someone who has never taken a foul shot, taking a foul shot, game seven of the NBA finals when time has run out and the game is tied. Like that person is not making it. You take foul shots.

in practice low stakes. And so the way I tell people to practice AVP is literally going to their phone right now, setting a random time that they tend to be alone, right? Not in the midst of things and just literally making a daily reminder that says AVP. And when it goes off, you just stop and you say to yourself, what am I feeling right now? And it can be like, I'm not feeling much. I don't know.

Well, that makes sense because this is a new thing for me to check in with my emotions. So it makes sense that I'm not sure. Permission. I'm giving myself full permission to not know how I'm feeling. Like there's no way to get it wrong. That's what I'm saying. And I promise you after a week or two,

Not only will you start to recognize more things, but already that skill, that coping skill will start to appear not in 10 out of 10 emotional situations. It will not. It's not magic, but like in maybe two, three out of tens. And I think that's like one concrete thing like all adults can do to start making progress. Was earlier.

AVP in action. When we said, I'm glad you're telling me about this. I believe you tell me more. That sounds like AVP. Oh my goodness. I've never, Shane, I've never thought about that.

But I'm so glad I'm telling you, telling me about this is basically like acknowledging and like, yeah, like I believe you is like another ultimate form of validation. And actually, you know, it's so interesting. This is crazy. My brain is firing in a million directions. Someone told me with AVP, they're like, I don't like to say make sense. I'm going to cry. This woman said, I just say to myself, I believe myself. I really do feel this way. So yeah. And then permission, like tell me more.

is permission. It's permission to feel, it's permission to keep going. Yes, I guess that is very profound. It will leave me with a lot to think about. I've never made that connection. Thank you. When we have an emotional outburst, we tend to react without reasoning. We say things that sometimes we can't unsay. We do things that the best version of ourself would not have us be doing. And we all do this. And this is natural and normal. I think it's part of being human and

Um, how do we repair with our kids or a partner after this happens? Okay. We've had this outburst, uh, or, you know, we had this fight or this argument. We're not feeling good about it, but we really don't know what to do now. How do we get back to a good place?

I'm so glad you're asking this question because I always like kick myself if I'm in a conversation and don't get to talk about this because it's the ultimate, right? Like to me, repair is literally the number one relationship strategy everyone should get good at. Whether you're in a partnership, you're in a relationship, you're in a relationship,

your relationships at work and definitely your relationship with your kid. And I want to go through this in a way it's literally going to come full circle to confidence, to behavior versus identity as everything. Cause I really think of myself as like a first principles thinker. It always comes back to the same few things. So yeah,

every single person, definitely me included, messes up. Like I yell at my kids and it's not something I'm just saying like, oh, that's nice. She's saying this. Like, of course I yell at my kid. Like I'd be offended that you didn't think I yelled at my kid. Like my kids, first of all, do not have Dr. Becky as a parent. And I would not wish Dr. Becky on any child. I really wouldn't as a parent. Like it's just not, it's not human. It's not the way you can learn about how relationships work, right? If our relationship with our kids is,

becomes the model they kind of take into adulthood and how they think about relationships. Shane, I don't think you and I want our kids going to look for a partner who's like, who is perfectly attuned to my emotions all the time? Who always gets it right? They will be very disappointed. Nobody is like that. So everybody messes up.

And when I say repair is the number one relationship strategy, it's because there's very few things that can have as much positive impact on repair. Okay. And what I always like to think about there is, okay, so if repair is one of the most powerful relationship strategies and I'm supposed to get good at repair, well, you can't repair if you don't mess up. You literally can't. And so really, okay, and I'll go through how to repair after I yell at my kid.

I really do say this to myself because I used to be pretty bad at repairing until I like understood really the power of it. I'm like, oh, I messed up. And especially with this like Dr. Becky stuff. I'm like, what would people think if like, right? Like I was yelling at my kids. I was like, wait, I'm getting good at repair. That's like my goal. So, yeah.

I messed up. Step one, check. Like crushed it, crushed it. I messed up. I already did step one. Everyone says the first step is the hardest step. Okay, well, first step is messing up. We did that. Second step is repair. Like you're 50% of the way there. So I want to take this whole idea and like turn on its head. Repair is so important. So I want to explain why repair is so important, especially for kids and then get into the concrete way to do it. So I just yelled at my kid.

And now usually in my house, after I yell at my kid, like we're separated. Like after I really scream, like my kid's in his room, let's say my son's in his room. And let's say it's about screen time. I'm like, I told you to get off, you know, the video game. And like, you never listen. And you, you know, take advantage of me. And like you said, and I don't know if I can trust you. And, you know, when he's like, you don't understand me. And I was just with my friends and you embarrass me. And I'm like, you've seen nothing.

nothing yet. Okay. And then he's in his room. He's like slammed his door and like I'm in the kitchen. Right. So what happens next? Right. That moment already happened. Do I wish it didn't happen? Yeah, I do. Right. But it already happened. So what goes on for a kid after a moment that feels really bad with a parent before repair has happened? So my kid is now, my son is now in his room.

He's overwhelmed and from like a somatic physical perspective, right? He's like agitated. He's obviously on edge. I am too. And he's even younger. He's helpless. Anyway, our kids are oriented by attachment with us. Attachment's the primary evolutionary mechanism for kids. They need us. They literally need us to survive.

And so they're always kind of paying attention to the status of their relationship with us, right? And figuring out how to be close to us again, figuring out how to get your body calm so you can kind of proceed is something they have to do. So my kids alone, right, having just gotten yelled at, and they have to figure out how to feel safe again, like in their body. And if I don't go help them do it, kids really only have two coping mechanisms at their disposal on their own. And those are self-doubt and self-blame.

So my kid could be in his room and kind of engage in self-doubt. Did that really happen? I mean, I don't know. Like if that happened, someone would probably come talk to me. I don't know. Maybe I'm making a big deal out of things. Maybe I'm overreacting. Maybe my friends wouldn't have thought this was such a big deal. And I guess I'm fine. Like, yeah, yeah, I guess I'm fine. Like, just forget it. And then also my mom never mentioned it again. So maybe that didn't even happen.

We don't want to wire self-doubt into our kids because it comes up in really in our opportune ways, right? When my daughter, let's say, or my son is older and they have something, I don't know, uncomfortable happen with the boss or with someone they meet in college. Like, I really don't think any of us want our kids self-talk to be like, did that really happen? Am I overreacting? Would my friends have thought that was a big deal? That's like so terrifying, right? And that's not what we want, right?

So that's self-doubt. And the other things kids do is self-blame. They just say, it's my fault. They're like, I did this. If I was like a better kid, I wouldn't have done this. And I ruined everything. They either say, you're both, I'm too much. I'm not enough. Right. And they kind of say this to themselves to calm down. And one of the reasons kids engage in self-blame that I find really compelling to like share this idea more widely, it's not mine. It's by Ronald Fairburn. Very, you know,

early psychiatrist, what he says that I think is compelling is just for kids, it's better to be a sinner in a world ruled by God than to live in a world ruled by the devil. Meaning kids have to feel safe in the world.

And they have to believe that their parents are like good and like will keep them safe. And so when things happen with their parents that feel really bad, it's actually adaptive for a kid to internalize fault and blame because at least then they can hold on to the idea that their parents and kind of therefore the world around them is safe and good.

And if we circle back to like, why do we all blame ourselves after we struggle? Well, if over and over after hard times in your body, hard time, thing that didn't feel good, self-blame. Hard time, thing that didn't feel good, self-blame. Well, you become an adult when you have a hard time and things that don't feel good. Guess what happens next in your circuit? Self-blame, right? Adaptive when you're young very, very much holds us back when we're adults.

And so whenever I think about those two things that my kid would have to do if I don't repair, it becomes extra compelling to repair because I really think, oh my goodness, my kid and I had this event. But here's what people misunderstand. Events don't mess up kids. Events aren't even inherently traumatizing. What, I don't like to mess up because it sounds so final, but what really impacts kids is not an event. It's the story they tell themselves about the event.

That's what gets encoded in their body. That's actually what memory is, right? It's events. And every time you've remembered that event. Is it the same for relationships too? In terms of like what gets remembered? It's the story we tell ourself about that moment.

Well, I think, you know, there's a lot of science on this now that like memory isn't events. It's events. And every other time you've remembered the event. To me, that's the best way to think about it, because it actually speaks to why therapy is powerful for people. Right. Like you don't change the events of your childhood, but by remembering them in a different way in the context of a safer relationship.

actually your memory changes. Your memories literally change. And so if you go back to like, you've yelled at your kid, you don't feel good. Your kid's alone in their room. You don't want them to engage in self-blame, self-doubt, right? You don't want that. Not only that, to me, like I often really, I feel like I'm a magician when I go repair with my kid. I'm like, oh my goodness, what happens next after the yell is going to have the most impact on what you end up encoding

about the event. Like if I can go in and do a true repair, you're gonna, you're not gonna quote be messed up by that. You're gonna learn that wasn't your fault. You're actually gonna watch an adult take responsibility for something that didn't feel good to them. You're gonna learn that after hard moments can be new understanding and people kind of working on themselves. Like what's a better lesson to my kid than that? It's like the most, that's why I say it's the most amazing opportunity.

And so to actually engage in repair, there's two steps. And I think the first step is one that's not talked about a lot. And it's why so many of us have a hard time repairing or apologizing. And the first step, and this is going to be full circle, is really repairing with ourselves. If someone says, like, I have a really hard time apologizing, or my husband, my wife, my mom really can't apologize, what they probably mean is they actually, and Shane, this is very similar to why someone wouldn't take responsibility for getting a bad grade.

They've equated the thing they did with the type of person they are. And so as long as me yelling at my son means I'm a monster and a bad mom, there's no humanly possible way I could repair. My body wouldn't even let me. I can't face it.

The idea of being an awful person. In fact, if I stay in that place when I repair with my kid, probably not repairing. I'm probably going to ask my kid to do me a service. You forgive me, right? You forgive me, right? You still love me, right? You love me. I'm actually like asking my kid to like give me back my goodness. That's like so not their job.

like repairing with ourselves really means, and I really do this when people are like, what does that really mean? I'm like, no, literally, like I go into a bathroom, I sit on a closed toilet, I put my feet on the ground, I put a hand on my heart and I'll say to myself, like, I'm not proud of yelling at my kid and that yelling doesn't define me. And I think this exercise is powerful for a million reasons, but like in general, I put up my two hands and I look at one and I'm like,

This is who I am. This is my identity. And I look at the other hand. I say, this is what I did. This is my behavior. I'm a good person who yelled at my kid. I'm a good parent who was having a hard time. And I'll notice, especially after like the bad moments, those hands start to come closer together. And I'm like, no, I'm not like I this is the worst. And I can't repair with my son from that place. I won't.

But if I like stay in that place, I'm like, no, like nobody's perfect. I didn't mess up my kid forever. And there is something to me just saying like, you know, my latest behavior doesn't define me. I'm a good parent, Becky. I am still a good parent. And I'll look at one hand and I'll look at the other hand who is having a hard time. I feel something like release a little bit in my body. And then really what's happened is I've reaccessed really my own good insideness separate from this behavior.

And if anyone thinks it's interesting, aren't you letting yourself off the hook? The only way to let yourself off the hook

is to conflate your behavior with your identity. Because as long as you're in a place of self-blame, it's actually a very like egotistical place and you're kind of like descending into this abyss. You can't reflect, you can't change, you can't wonder, what coping skills do I need? What do I need to do differently the next time? It doesn't make an excuse, but what was going on in my day that left me so fried and overwhelmed and how could I change that next time? The only way you can reflect and learn is by repairing with yourself. Yeah, it's sort of basically you're saying, yeah,

I'm not going to be defined by this behavior. I'm not going to let that define who I am, even though they can both be true, right? I did this thing. I don't want to be the person who does that type of thing. And yet I did it. And yet it doesn't have to define who I am or my future. That's exactly right.

And then you've kind of like, I do think about that. You've like reaccessed this thing inside of you. Like I'm kind of, I'm still like, I haven't lost that good inside. And that's now I don't need my kid to find it for me. Now I don't need them to validate it. That's, you know, not the point of a repair. That is the opposite. And now I can actually go and do a true repair with my kid. And to me, a repair, you know, I don't think there's an exact formula, but like to some degree you name what happened, you take responsibility for,

And you state what you would do differently the next time. And I think especially that I think all those components are pretty important. So I might say, hey, I'm thinking about yelling at you when you were playing video games earlier. The reason I want to name it specifically, again, I always think that kids have the tendency to self-doubt.

Just to, again, make themselves feel better. And I always want my kids to go into adulthood being like the things I see and the things I notice really are true. And so I think just like validating that when I yelled at you when you were playing video games is a way of my son and being like, OK, I didn't make that up like that. It happened. I'm really sorry. And to me, this line matters and it's controversial. So I want to talk about it with you. It's never your fault when I yell.

You know, I'm really working on managing my own frustration, even my system around how you do video games, because it is important you end at the time we said. And there's definitely a smoother way around that. And even when you don't, like, it's my job to like, you know, approach that in a calmer way. And that's, you know, and then I think a couple things can happen. It depends on your kid's age, too. You know, but most of the time kids will look at you and they'll say, like, whatever. Or they'll say, can I have my snack now?

or you're so weird if it's new. You know, they'll say something like that. And I think it's easier to walk out of the room being like, oh my goodness, like I just like did such major internal work to make that happen and my kid didn't even care. They cared. Do not take the bait, especially if it's new. It's a lot for them to process, to be treated like someone who's deserving of a repair. And

Whenever any of us are kind of experienced something emotional, a lot of us kind of push people away to have enough distance to like try to like retake it in, in our own time. And so I know with 100% conviction that it will make a difference to your kid, even if they don't gratify you by saying something back that's kind in the moment. Is it different or where is it different when it comes to repairing with a partner or spouse?

Great question. I think it's both different and it feels totally different. And we all, me included, can get into such a state of willfulness instead of willingness, you know, with our partners. You know, I think I think it's the same thing. It's like you're taking responsibility for what you did. You're owning your side of the equation.

I think a lot of us, let's say you yell at your partner, it's easy to be like, well, if you didn't do this thing, or if you had said this instead, I wouldn't have reacted that way. But at the end of the day, we own our reactions and we're responsible for how we hold things. Maybe it's embarrassing, but this is something I really struggle with sometimes in particular moments when somebody...

tells me how they're feeling. And the implication is that I did something that's caused them to feel that way. I catch myself saying, I'm sorry you're feeling that way. That doesn't seem like a good way...

to respond or lead to... Did your partner want me to help you with this? Yeah. I'm just joking. Well, it's sort of like, because it's like I'm insulating myself from any accountability, but in some cases I might not agree with it, right? So this is where my mind goes, where it's like, well, I don't...

I don't agree that you should feel that way, perhaps. Or I don't agree that I did anything that caused that. How do I acknowledge and validate and repair? Yeah, what's a better way to respond in all of this? No. So let's just go further into that. Because you said what you said I thought was compelling. I don't agree. Is that the word you used? Yeah. Agree. Agree.

Is there a situation that we could delve into with a little more detail? Well, if somebody's like, you did this thing and it made me angry, in my mind, I can be like, I don't agree that you should be angry or I don't agree that you should be feeling that way. It's sort of like what I catch myself thinking. And when I catch myself thinking that, the words that sometimes come out of my mouth is, I'm sorry you're feeling that way. Which

which means I get to walk away without acknowledging that I have any contribution to this. And I'm not really, I'm sort of validating your feelings, but not quite validating your feelings at the same time. And it's that dance between like, in some cases, like I just don't think I did anything that would warrant that. And so like, I don't want to apologize for something when I didn't really do anything.

Yeah. What do I do in these? Am I am I crazy? No, you're zero percent crazy. And so much of this resonates with me, too. And I can get like this, too. So there's a couple of things that you said that I think we need to like, you know, not like break down, but like poke around. That's what I would say. So first of all, most of us, when we're married, like right or partnered, whatever we are, like the way we react to our spouse when they bring us up something they're feeling.

is we do, we get very like kind of egocentric. I do this too, where it's like, well, I wouldn't feel that way. Like, right. And I think most fights,

Partners get in are kind of they're both saying to the other person. Why can't you be more like me? And then I'm so well, I can't be more like me Why can't be more like me right? We all find our partners inherently We've attracted to them because of all the ways they're kind of different from us and then over time We become a little bit repelled by those exact same things. That's like marriage, right? And so those different Those differences I think are at the core right and so I actually think this relates to that feeling bench a lot right so

Your partner is coming to you essentially saying, I don't know, I'm going to make up a situation. Tell me if like it's close enough. Like you didn't you didn't text me and tell me that you weren't going to stop at the store. And like, I'm really mad because I would have then gone by myself. I don't know. Is that close enough? Or you didn't text me for two days and I thought you would text me in between. Or, you know, like you were traveling. You didn't text me for two days when you were traveling. Like you don't even reach out to see how the last two days are going. Like, I'm really mad. Right. OK. Yeah. Great.

So I know that sounds silly, but I think we should really slow this down because what your partner is saying is what your partner is not saying is a couple of things. They're not saying you did anything so abhorrent. They're not saying I'm right to feel mad because like that's the right feeling in the world. That's like the right feeling in the world. And they're not saying you're a horrible person and they're not saying you're at fault. I think the first thing that really helps when our partner shares how they feel is

is my partner is inviting me to get to know more about them. This is an invitation. They're getting, they're showing me another part of themselves that's very vulnerable and they'd like me to be in a relationship with

with that part of them now i know this is tricky because you're like but my partner's also saying that i did something to relate to that part well we all do this but they're also saying almost like more zoomed out like hey now that that thing already happened like i'm coming to you and this is i think the gotmans called this is like a bid for connection this is like an invitation yeah does that is that as a start does that shift things a little bit

Totally. Because it's like I'm reaching out because I care. If I didn't care, I wouldn't be reaching out. I wouldn't be engaging in this conversation. I would just ignore it and sort of like build resentment slowly. So the fact that you're reaching out is a bit.

That's right. It's a bid. Exactly. And, you know, almost and we don't communicate this way, but it's almost like what a partner saying is like, look, you and I are different. And if I was traveling for two days, you might not even notice that I didn't text or I might come home and be like, wow, you were really busy. Tell me about how those days traveling were. And for me.

When you don't text for those two days, I spiral a little bit. I feel unseen. I feel like maybe you forgot about me. Maybe that's dramatic, but that's somewhere inside me. And my need is for more communication from you than your need would be from me. I think if someone said it to us, we'd be like,

okay, when you lay it out that way, like, I guess when we say I don't agree, what we're really usually saying is I wouldn't feel that way if I were you, which I don't think anyone would disagree with, right? I think one of the hardest parts about being in a relationship with someone who's inherently different is that like, wait, I wouldn't feel that way, but you do feel that way. And I do love you. And I am choosing to be in a relationship with you. So we have this choice. It's like, I can kind of lean on

And I think like there's my righteousness. I wouldn't feel that way. Or I can be curious about getting to know more of you. And I think you're right. Then same thing with our kids. I'm sorry you feel that way. Probably something we should always catch ourselves if we can before we say it, because it feels like it's like neither here nor there. And so many of the lines we talked about, honestly, if you think about a partner, right, who says this, right? You were gone for two days. Like it's the same thing.

They're like sitting on a bench, right? And they're like sad. They're sad. Or they're mad. Usually under mad is sad also, you know, so it's probably a little bit of both, right? I'm mad, I'm sad. And if you think about sitting down, right, you'd say like, it's actually a great first line. Like, I'm so glad you're telling me that.

Like, right. And it's so interesting how much that diffuses mad right away, because like most people, when they're angry, they are they're ready to fight. Right. And like they're gearing up. Right. And actually under mad usually is some more vulnerable emotion. And I think like I'm so glad you're telling me about that is that usually starts to get a little closer than actually that next line. Like, I believe you. Like, I believe you that you were really hurt. And again, you're not saying and I think this is actually so important in parenting, too.

So understanding how someone feels in a deep way is not at all the same thing as agreeing or saying I would feel that way too or saying that some way to feel is right in the world, like in some grand way. It's just understanding. It's not condoning. It's just understanding.

Right. And then like, oh, so tell me, tell me what that was like for you. Like those three lines, I think are actually like such an amazing guide in that situation. I think the problem with me is like, I don't, I want to know more deep down inside. I also don't want.

to necessarily like my brain just goes to this place where it's like, do you agree with this? Do you not agree with this? And like, that's what I want to get out of is this, like, I don't want to be in that sort of binary mode because if I agree with it, I'm one person. And if I don't agree with it, I'm a completely different person, which is like cold and distant. And if I do agree with it, well, then I'm sitting on that bench with you. And I'm like, oh, totally. Like I hate it when that happens. And yeah. And I would actually go so far, Shane, to say like,

I actually don't think it's great to agree with it either. Like, I don't know. You probably, maybe you wouldn't feel that way. Like in my relationship, my husband says stuff to me all the time that I'm like, my first reaction to is like, Oh my God, because I wouldn't feel that way. But I'm like, wait, like I'm in Becky mode. I know. Okay. I wouldn't feel that way. Like almost like, who cares? Like he's sharing with me how he feels or, you know, same thing as the opposite. So I actually think, I think it's so helpful when we're in relationships to get out of agreeing with

Or disagreeing. I actually think, I don't know, I'm just thinking about this now, like when you're curious about something, you're not sure if you agree or disagree. You're actually just like,

So in talking to you today, I think that's the conclusion that I've sort of drawn for myself, which is just like approach it with curiosity and non-judgment and just try to understand the other person. And it's sort of like I do with the podcast. Like I'm not judging what people say. I just want to see the world through your eyes and I want to smell what you smell. And I don't want to agree or disagree with what you're saying. I just want to see what the world looks like through your lens. Yeah.

I love that. And again, that idea of is it me against you versus me and you against a problem is helpful because if someone's like, I tend to get kind of judgmental when my partner shares their feelings and I tend to be like, well, I wouldn't feel that way. And so I'm sorry you feel that way. If you know that and you want to work on it.

it's an amazing thing to first share that with your partner, to be like, this is something I'm working on. It's like, you know, it really is. And this is totally not your responsibility. But again, because I see it as me and my partner against this problematic dynamic, I might say, look, the next time you do share when you're mad at me, this is so not your responsibility. But if you're able, right? If you could like say to me, like, I don't need you to agree. Just be curious, whatever it is. It almost just would like,

bring up that part of me. Like, I just like that. I don't know. And again, you don't have to because it's like if my partner doesn't, it doesn't mean I've justified that I'm allowed to, you know, react with judgment. But to me, again, it makes us feel like let's together figure out where our conversation goes off and work together so we can, you know, move in a more productive direction. I want to switch gears a little bit here. There's so many other questions I have and some including from friends. Great.

I want to talk about something that a lot of my friends seem to be struggling with with their kids. And I'm going to use the term addiction, but I'm not using it in a clinical sense. I'm using it in the sense of like teenagers specifically being addicted to screens. And I'm going to specify screens as their phone or video games.

And that addiction shows some classic signs of an actual addiction, including behavior where you're sneaking around, you're hiding your phone, you're doing things that you shouldn't be doing. And maybe you're missing school assignments because you're, you know, at school and you're playing video games. And so like it's the baby steps towards an actual addiction and maybe a clinical sort of addiction. What can we do as parents with the lying, the sneaking, the

And this is not, I mean, my kids exhibit this from time to time. I think most teenagers, it's just sort of like part of being a teenager as well. You walk in your kid's room and maybe they have their phone and they're trying to hide it and they're covering it up and they're lying about it.

How do we deal with screens specifically borderline addiction where it's causing other problems and the kids can't self-regulate in terms of I need to get off my phone. I've been on it enough today.

So first of all, the deck is stacked against us here. I just want to say this. I think back on the days where, I mean, I think this is true. Sorry, my history isn't amazing, but I'm guessing at some point kids could buy cigarettes, you know? And it would be like, how do I stop my kids? How do I stop my kids? And at some point the government's like, we can't leave it to parents. These things are awful for kids. We know that. They're not in a place to make good decisions. And so there has to be legislation to make change. I really believe kids and screens are the same. And we're living in a time now where it's just

all on parents and I just feel for every parent. So it's just, if it feels really hard and you're struggling, like,

I think that's the best it gets, right? So I have a few more ideas than that. But so second, kids cannot self-regulate with phones, period. I would also say adults cannot self-regulate with phones. They are stronger than us. I have a very hard time if my phone's anywhere near me, not grabbing it and thinking about something to do. So the idea that a kid won't self-regulate or isn't listening or isn't getting off when they know their time is up, I think we have to actually say like they are

literally incapable of doing that. And I think that's actually a really important foundation because it changes the types of interventions we would even think to use. So that's two. Three, our number one job as parents is to keep our kids safe.

And maybe that's obvious, but it's also it's a line I've said to my kids since they were young when my issues weren't screens. But it was like, I don't know, throwing sand at another kid in, you know, the sandbox, at which point I'd pick my son up and he's like, no, no. And, you know, even though he'd thrown five times, I'd say, I'm picking you up. I'm bringing you to the car. My number one job is to keep you safe and I will keep you safe even when you're upset with me. Like I used to like and so interesting how I think about that now. Our number one job is to keep our kids safe. And we love our kids so much that we will keep them safe even when they're upset with us.

And putting that into practice is messy for sure. But I still think the principle really matters. My number one job is not to keep my kid happy. It's to keep my kids safe. I actually say that to my kids a lot. What's my number one job to keep you safe or happy? I know safe. Right. But it's really true. OK, next. As parents, we can change our rules any time.

like to me this is one of the biggest things I would talk about with parents in private practice they'd be like these are the things that aren't working and it would be like their bedtime's too late or screen rolls I'd be like okay talk to me about changing them like oh it's too late it's like it's been like this you know I don't know like imagine imagine being on a plane flying to California and like it's not just turbulent like major issues and you have to make an emergency landing and the pilot's like

well, I don't know, we've got to go to Los Angeles. So I guess there's nothing we could do. What? Like change course. And if the pilot was like, we're going to make an emergency landing in Denver and all the passengers are like, what? That's so annoying. And the pilot was like, you know what?

Forget it. Forget it. Everyone seems pretty upset. We're just going to keep going. Like, I don't think anyone would want that pilot. You'd actually probably be pissed at your pilot for even though like you believe maybe it's dangerous, but maybe you underestimate it. You're like, we have to land in Denver. I'm so annoyed. But like, you'd be so freaking grateful that the pilot knew what their job was, even though people were putting up a protest. And like, why?

Like we are that pilot for our kids. You can change altitude, change course, change rules. And if you know your kid has their phone in their room when they're doing their homework, period, like our kids should not have their phones in their room when they're doing their homework. And let's even take that and play it out. Well, my kid always does. And they're like not just 13 anymore. They're 17. And how could I change that? I'm going to walk through how to change that. Hey, sweetie, I have something to tell you and you're

I know you're not going to like it, but look, I've been thinking about certain things and my number one job is to like help make good decisions. Even when you're upset with me, that's actually how much I love you, that I'm willing to make decisions that I really do believe are good for you, even if you're going to be really, really mad at me. And I'm about to share one of those decisions. When you come home from school, we have a box to put your phone in and it's not locking it away. That phone comes back to you as soon as you finished your homework. And I know you're used to having your phone in your room.

And I know I've allowed it. I know we've argued about it starting tomorrow. It's not happening. I just want to be fair. It's not. And if you yell at me and if you're mad, it's not happening. And the reason it's not happening is because it's not like you have bad willpower. It is literally impossible to focus on schoolwork. For even adults, it would be. While we have a device that has so many fun games on it right next to us. And I know that's a change. And I know that the first couple days will be hard. And I actually know that at some point after, it'll become a lot easier.

It's just like and I know in my modeling of that, first of all, it's really easy to say that to you. Like you're not my kid and you're not about to like yell at me. Right. But what parents say to me all the time is like the way you said that sounded like actually nice, but like no nonsense. Like I didn't doubt that you meant that, you know, because I think our kids smell our doubt and also what we do. And I just want to model this.

Um, I know you notice your grades have been slipping and, and I'm just thinking about your phone in your room. And I know, you know, that's not a good idea, right? You know, that's not a good idea, right? And I think today we should try. That literally is like a pilot coming on being like,

you guys know it's a good idea to land in Denver, right? Like, can I just get a vote out there? Don't you think it's a good idea to have an emergency landing? You'd be like, where is my leader? This is crazy talk. Just tell me, you know? And I think that metaphor matters so much because what I would tell parents to do, and I really mean this concretely, get out your phone, first write a script for yourself. You can read it to your kids if this is new for you to kind of

embody your authority in an appropriate way, right? Not in a mean way, but an appropriate way. Get out a voice recorder and read the script into your phone and then play it back to yourself. It's amazing. You'll be like,

I really sounded like I was asking my kid. I didn't even believe myself. I didn't even believe myself. And then say it again. And you'll be like, wow, that sounded like mean and harsh and critical. Okay. Okay. So I have the two ends. Let me try it again. Like literally just it's like we said, it's like practice. Right. And it goes back to boundaries. Right. Like I can't ask my kid.

to be doing my job for me. And I think we do that a lot with kids and they smell it. And it's why they act out more not to take advantage of us, but because they don't feel like they have a sturdy leader. Do you think that's that happened or more prone to happen when we want them? A lot of parents seem to want to be friends with their kids first and sort of the pilot second. And do you think when we conflate those two things that we tend to be like,

get in trouble? Yeah, it's interesting. Like I think about how important it is to be connected to our kids. And let's say friends is a form of connection. I don't know though, like in my close friendships, I'm not boundaryless. Like I don't think a good friendship is always making my friends happy. So if that's someone definition of friend, then I guess then they're trying to be friends with their kids. To me, that's never how I try to be friends with my friends. Definitely not with my kids. To me, any good relationship comes from both being connected to someone else and connected to yourself.

Yeah, maybe it's more like you want your kid to like you, I guess, which is a very human sort of need, right? And I think, though, we know also from so much research how much teens like...

have find so much comfort when their kid when their parents are protecting them they don't gratify you like by the way if i said this thing which is about the phone thing like my son even if i deliver it the way it's not gonna be like mom you are such a sturdy leader and i feel so taken care of by you i just want to tell you that no no he would not that would be crazy town my son my son too would be like that's not fair and all my friends do and you're saying you don't trust me oh are you saying you don't trust me that i'd be like sweetie this is not about trust this is actually

just about me making a decision that I know is the right one. That's really all it's about. I think this also relates to something we aren't taught

and therefore don't expect as parents, that two things that are totally independent is us making a good decision as a parent and our kid having a big emotional reaction. They're both equally true and equally valid. We kind of fool ourselves into thinking like if I make an amazing decision as a parent, my kid's going to be like, that sounds good. You know, but we also do the opposite is that when we see our kid be very mad at us, we think it means we made a bad decision.

And to me, the idea of like two things are true. I'm allowed to make decisions and my kid is allowed to have emotional reactions. Neither is more true than the other. Neither is more right than the other. They're just two truths I have to hold at once can really prepare us. And so if you're going to have a conversation like this, we can go through other things about this, too. Actually going in as a parent and I always call this emotional vaccination, right? Like vaccinating ourselves like I would actually go through this. This was me and I was nervous. This is like a new thing for me to do. I'd probably like play

play this out with a partner or friend. I'd be like, can you, can you be our son? Like, can you do it? I'd give myself a rep. Like it is like taking foul shots in the gym. Like I find sports to be like the most useful metaphor. Like, you know, we take foul shots in the gym so we can do it in the game. Like, well,

you're going to do something for the very first time to your teenage son who you know is going to be upset and you think that's going to feel great or feel even successful. Of course not. Like do a dry run, do it with your friend and have them. I would really have my husband in the case be like, no. And like, it will feel a little funny because I know he's acting, but my body will start to develop like a little bit of a circuit for

for saying it, for tolerating it. So then at least with my son, it's my second time and not like the first time. No, I think that's a beautiful way to sort of tie it together. Do you think...

A lot of my friends sort of like try to, I don't know, resolve this issue is the right word, but it's like, well, if you get above, you know, 80, you can have X amount of video game time per day. And if your report card has your grades above 90, you can have X times two. What is that doing? Well, I think now we're talking about so many different things about like.

about grades and about our focus on them and kids building intrinsic motivation versus extrinsic motivation. And, you know, the part of that that I think is well-intentioned, okay, is, I mean, everything's well-intentioned, but the part of me that strikes me about that in a positive way is I think to some degree we're saying, I want to make sure you're like doing the developmental tasks of your age. Like you're supposed to be going to school, you're supposed to be doing your work and

If I think you're and we both think you're kind of capable of performing a certain way, not for some outside reason, but just because it's in line with your abilities. Like, I want to make sure you're progressing in that way. And maybe these are markers that you're kind of completing those developmental tasks. I get that. I don't think that's how kids receive it. I think it feels like grades are the thing that matters. And, you know, that's all. I mean, yeah.

I really, I don't think there's a perfect system. So that's what I think. I think we're all like muddying around in this. I do think when it comes to, you know, screen time and how much and when,

To me, this is like actually a great time to like call kind of a family meeting of sorts. That's what I call them, where especially as your kids get older to say, hey, I think we should have a meeting, you know, and really talk about screen time and when it happens and where it happens. And I'm going to have some ideas. You're going to have some ideas. We'll kind of get them all down on paper. And then we'll probably agree on some ideas that each of us don't totally love, but can agree to. Right. And so.

than actually doing that and to be like, okay, so when should you, let's talk about when you're going to do video games. Other things related to that are homework, are,

You know, playing, you know, with your sister, you know, or, you know, like general, how are you doing in school? I don't think that's the only thing that matters, but maybe it's one data source that we think about. Okay, let's go through it. And then what I think is really key, okay, is when you start to brainstorm, first of all, to literally write things down. That's not like just something I'm saying. When you write down things other people are saying, especially if they're topics that are kind of conflictual, the other person immediately feels respected.

Right. Like imagine your boss being like, wait, you want to raise me? Write down all the reasons you'd be like, wow, I feel very seen, you know? So to actually write it down and to start this off in a productive way, it's really helpful to like break the ice a little bit as a parent with like the first thing. So it'd be like, when can you play video games? Right. Um,

Um, and maybe like I would start off saying like, you know, I've actually totally changed my mind and I kind of feel like you probably only need three hours of sleep. And so I think you should play video games from, I don't know, probably from like 10 PM to like 4 AM. Okay. So I'm just going to write it down and like my son will probably be like,

But like, if I get the eye roll, he thinks he's rolling his eyes. And I'm like, I just won there. Cause like, I'm just like starting. So I'd write down literally one video games from, you know, 10 PM to 4 AM. Okay. Two. And as soon as you start that way, your kid's going to be a little more engaged.

Right. And then I would write it down and then you review, oh, 12, you know, oh, not many hours video games. Oh, you know what? I don't know. 10 p.m. to 4 a.m. It's like, it's kind of a lot, you know, and I don't know, maybe you need more than three hours. I'm just going to like kind of put an X in that one. It's probably not our best idea. And again, what you hear in this example is this is me and my son talking.

against kind of the video game schedule. It's not me against my son. I love that because you're sitting on the bench in your word and you're like, here's the problem. We're on the same side of the table and we're trying to address this problem together. I think that's a really effective way to do it. How do you think about currency? And I think that's what it is, right? People are trying to find a currency to control a behavior and it has implications on long-term, but like

Half the time, man, like I feel like I deserve an Olympic medal just for the kids, you know, not dying that day and making it through the day. And I imagine other parents feel the same way. You know, it's like, oh, my God, you know, I just did this normal day, but it feels like an Olympic level effort. I just need to like find these little things that I mean, there's tradeoffs, right? Like I need to figure out today before I can figure out

How do you think about that in terms of, yeah, we want our kids to be intrinsically motivated. We can't let them regulate their own screen time.

For many parents of teens, it's one of the few currencies they actually care about. I mean, I remember myself as a teenager. My mom would be like, you can't have this. I'd be like, whatever. I don't need anything. That whole attitude. And at one point, she took everything out of my room. She literally, this is my mom, right? We're going to have a power struggle. You are going to lose. I come in my room. There's like a mattress on the floor. There's no nightstand. There's no alarm clock. There's no nothing.

And, you know, in that moment, I was like, all right, it's probably not. But of course, I'm like lying there just like looking at the ceiling and I will show no weakness. Right. Well, I'm trying to get to the bottom of your question, because when I think about currency to me and maybe it kind of goes back to your question of like the status of our relationship with our kid. To me, if we're thinking about our relationship with our kid in terms of

what we could give or take away that they care about, we're not in a great place. Because I think if someone heard my husband being like, what could I take away from Becky or give her if she just

you know, did the dishwasher more. I feel like they'd be like, wow, I don't know if I can answer your question as much as I'm struck by this disturbing nature of your question. Well, so this is super interesting. So I was at the gym before this and I was actually thinking about this and I was like, I wonder if a good indicator that what I'm doing as parenting is probably not ideal if I wouldn't do it to an adult. I mean, I think that that's, you know, like here's a great example of that. Like,

I think when the number one thing people tell me is, there's a lot of different things, but is my kid doesn't listen. My kid doesn't listen to me. They don't listen to me. Right. Like it's so common. And, you know, I think about this, like if I was sitting on my couch and I was just like, you know, in the two minutes I have before my kids go to bed and I go to bed, my two minutes, I'm like reading a book. And my husband was also on the couch and he's like, hey, can you go to the kitchen, get me water? And I was like, I'm like reading my book. Like, sorry, like you can get water.

And if he was like, you have a listening problem and I'm going to take away your phone. I just I feel like if someone was watching, I feel like they'd be like, Becky, like I feel like that's gaslighting at best, maybe abusive. Like I feel like that is that is if anything, that is his problem. You just didn't get him water. Right. And we do that to our kids all the time. And if you're like me and you're like, turn off the TV, you're not even near them. You're just like, yeah, it'd be like my husband in his room being like, go get me water and bring it to the bedroom. And I'm like.

WTF, no. And then he punishes me. And we do that to our kids all the time. So listening, cooperation, like why would I get my husband water? Really? I'd either get him water because I was scared of him. I would.

But wiring fear next to love is not something I recommend because yes, what that means, I'll lay it out, is your kid will go into their adult relationships thinking loving relationships are one in which you fear your partner and that's who they'll be attracted to. Literally, that's what their attraction will be. I don't know any adult who wants that. So I do not recommend for a lot of reasons. Why else would I get my husband water? Well, first of all, I probably wouldn't have yelled at me across, but if he was like,

I know this is annoying and we're both like kind of trying to do our own thing. Is there any way you get me water? The reason I'd say yes is because I felt close to him. Maybe earlier that day he listened to me. Maybe he's been really supportive. And that's why, because I feel close to him. And if he said to me, if you get me water, if you get me water, I'm just laughing. If you get me water 10 days in a row, I'm going to give you a diamond necklace. Okay. I'd be like, okay, I probably will. But I would also feel like our relationship is probably like not in a great place. It's transactional. It's transactional.

What's so tricky is teens will get to the age where, like, they don't have to hang out with you. And, like, they're too big to put in a time out. And they don't care about sticker charts. And they don't care about rewards. Yep. And I think about this teen who, you know, him and his parents came to see me yesterday.

you know, in my practice and they came only because he had stopped going to school. So like it was, you know, that's pretty intense, like school refusal, right? Like then you're like, shoot, like what do I do? My 14 year old stopping. And I got the whole history and this was a kid and the parents were always getting all of these recommendations. Like the kid was quote difficult. So they did a lot of timeouts and punishments and sticker charts and rewards and ignoring and power struggles. And they missed out on 14 years of having a relationship with him. They'd never relationship with him. And now he was big and old.

And never too late. We did so much work. There was a lot of repair and moving forward in a very different direction. But yeah, it's like, it sounds so obvious, but it's like, our kids are human. Like they're human. They're closer to adults than they are to animals that you're trying to train and shape their behavior. Yeah.

And yes, I think the way to think about your relationship with your kid and the place it's at is like the way we relate to each other and the way I relate to my child. Like it's not the same, but is it based on the same principles at least in which I would engage in my like healthiest adult relationship? No, I think that's a really good approach to it. I mean, I haven't really thought of it in that way. I mean, I, I sort of like, am I worst? I catch myself using that as a currency. Uh,

And, you know, it's a currency when I say you can't have it until you do your homework. Right. And there's a way in which I think that could be shifted. So like, let's say it's like you can have your phone until you do homework. To me, this actually is all about that mindset. Am I looking at you on one side of the table or are we on the same side of the table? Like my son, my right has a phone. OK, my oldest. And like he doesn't get his between getting home and doing his homework. Right. He doesn't have his phone and then he gets it after. But not because like.

Versus like, not because like, I'm not going to give it to you until after it's like out of, again, like this is a problem we're both in together. Like it would, it's hard to have your phone and perform well. And like, I know he wants to do well inherently. I also know phones are addicting and playing a video game or looking up stats on ESPN is inherently more fun than doing hard math homework for anyone. So I'm helping him. I'm protecting him.

But through this boundary. So, hey, sweetie, just a reminder, your phone goes here. It's just too hard for any of us to focus, you know, with our phone right there when we're doing hard work. And yeah, as soon as it's all done, this will come back to you. Like, and that's also the way I would want, again, like my partner or another adult to talk to me. That's a big takeaway for me from this conversation is just approaching it like you would approach an adult that you're in a long term relationship with.

You can't win the day at the expense of the decade, and you have to approach it in a way. The mindset really matters by which you approach the conversation, even if the outcome is likely to be the same. And I think that that's fascinating. I have a couple quick questions, perhaps, before we wind up here. Great.

One question that one of my friends had was about when adolescence is actually over. It seems like it's become a prolonged life stage. And there's even been formal proposals now to increase the end range from 19 to 24 years.

Do you agree with this? How should parents and society sort of like gear themselves up for this? So I don't know if that's like it actually just makes me think like, again, if I'm sitting on the same side of the table as my kid, I'd be like, hey, you're an adult now. Like, I don't know. I feel like I see you like, OK. But I think underlying this question is like, when does my kid become more independent and like when do they start to take care of themselves? Right. And I actually think this gets back to something we didn't touch on. But you mentioned earlier, which is the idea of like letting our kids struggle. Right. Right.

Um, to me, one of the things that I think for some reason is getting increasingly hard to do in parenting is just, it's just letting your kid live the results of like

their actions, you know? And to me, that's not like the word consequence, but to me, a great example, and it does relate to prolonged adolescence versus I think when we say launching into adulthood, it's just like feeling capable and feeling more independent is I think we have to ask ourselves, like when my kids are young and entering adolescence for getting prolonged, am I setting them up for that? Right. Am I setting them up? What is the circuit? I'm always thinking about this. What is the circuit I'm building with my kid? So for example, my kid recently had swim in middle school and

And I saw he forgot his bathing suit. Right. And like, I probably could have like jumped in my car or something. And I'm just like, okay, what's the circuit? And this is not have to be like all the time, but in general, it's like, okay, he forgets, you know, and then someone remembers for him. Okay. Right. He forgets. He doesn't have his bathing suit. His swim, his gym teacher is like, oh, like you need to have your baby, whatever happens. And my guess is then he'd be more likely to forget.

remember, right? As long as I'm stepping in and doing the remembering for my kid, I don't know why we think our kid is going to start doing the remembering for themselves. It actually reminds me of the towel. Maybe I'd say, seems hard to remember. How could you remember? And he'd be like, oh, maybe I'll do the towel thing. I'll put it, great idea, right? So I think one of the things we have to think about if we don't want to have this prolonged adolescence in our kid is just how am I scaffolding

skills that my kid can have? How am I helping them build independence? And in what ways am I picking short-term gains, but at the expense of maybe long-term skills? And we all have to give ourselves permission to do that sometimes. Sometimes you're like, I just have to make it easy. Like, don't forget your homework or something. Right. But I think in general, the pattern, I think that's something we can really reflect on and then maybe shift, you know, a little bit with our kids. What do you think about competitive sports? Yeah.

What do I think about competitive sports? I mean, you know, I'm not sure exactly how to answer that, but I don't know if you're, there's a lot of things that I start thinking about. Um,

I think about how early kids are, you know, I think pushed into these like super intense sports where I feel like when I was growing up, kids did a lot of different things. And then I'm also thinking, I don't know if this is where you're thinking about, about parents, parents' relationship with their kids' athleticism and what, you know, goes on in the sidelines and kind of, I think in a way, like our unlived dreams, you know, translated into pressure and identification with our kids, you know, and it's almost hard to separate that.

Who's engaging in the competitive sport? Like my kid or me. And so I think, you know, I think what's important as much as possible is to try to really like center our kids in this. Like, what are they like? What are they interested in? Are they seeming to get something out of this? What's their wish? What's my wish? Is it their wish because they're interested? Are they just trying to like they kind of notice how happy they are?

This seems to make me and they want to be like a good, you know, daughter in my eyes. Like those questions are helpful. Two final questions before we wrap up here. Why do we as parents wrap up so much of our identity? And this goes back to a few things we've talked about earlier in our kids.

And we sort of like want to live vicariously through them in some ways or one up other parents or think our way is better. And it's sort of like the worst part of ourselves. And, you know, I noticed this a lot with other people, probably not myself. And I'm definitely I'm sure I do it sometimes. But we wrap ourselves up in our kids successes or failures.

And we think we're good parents if they're doing good and we're bad parents if they're doing bad. I think probably for a number of reasons. I think we're just like very unprepared psychologically.

for what happens when we become a parent. You know, our kids come along and so many of our unlived dreams, our insecurities, the things we never got to do, we don't even realize how we see our kids as like a channel to like achieve those things. And we think we can like heal ourselves, you know, through our kids.

As opposed to the opposite journey, which is like pausing and instead of gazing outward, like to our kids to fix them, almost gazing inward. Like, wait, what's going on for me here? I think everyone who's becoming a parent should probably...

take time to reflect on like, what are my insecurities? What are the parts of life that I, you know, regret or didn't get? Or, you know, did I never become a D1 athlete? And what would that become? What would be like if I had a kid? Like what's probably going to come out, right? I think we're kind of unprepared for the amount of self-reflection being a like very present parent who's actually centered on our kid requires. Yeah, that's so fascinating. As you said that, it sort of like jogged this thought, which was,

At some point in our probably 35 to 50 years,

age range where like, okay, well, this is where I'm at in life. But now there's this do over, right? Everything is possible again with children. And so I might not have got all the things that I wanted to get out of life. But now all of a sudden, I can put all of my pressure on you as a child. And that's right. I'm always, you know, I don't know if you read Far From the Tree by Andrew Solomon. But to me, the prologue, the first page, like I think every parent should read and it just starts with him saying, there's no such thing as reproduction.

Like the word reproduction is a fantasy. Oh, that's fascinating. Like you produce. Yeah. You produce. And what he says about parenting, he goes, what parenting really is,

is being forever cast into a relationship with a stranger. And every time I just think, I just think so many of our struggles as parents come down to that. Like we don't reproduce, we produce. And this kid is a stranger and our job is to kind of get to know them. But the word reproduction brings like right from the start brings up very different fantasies for us. That's beautiful. And the final question we always ask every guest is what is success for you? I think about success as...

I'm being able to like live in line with values. I think to me, that's like feels good. Like when you're aware of what your values are,

And we're able to kind of act and behave most of the time in a way that's really in line with them. I think this really circles back to our conversation. I think our ability to do that really depends on our emotion regulation skills, on our strong relationships, you know, about reflecting and being curious about why we do the things we do. But to me, like, I feel really successful on days when I feel like, oh, and like I'm living in line with the things that I value. I'm showing up in the world in that way.

It's a beautiful way to end this. Thank you so much. Thank you. What an incredible conversation with Dr. Becky. I think the two biggest things that I took away from that, the three biggest things actually were her solution to approaching challenging conversations when somebody brings something up, which is, I'm glad you're telling me about this.

I believe you and tell me more that three steps. Those are amazing. AVP, it relates to AVP, which we sort of hit on, on the podcast, which I thought was incredible. The second one that I thought was really interesting. The second point, the big point that I took away from this was it's me and you and me and my kids, me and your partner, whoever you're, you're with against the problem.

And that mindset shift is huge, which is you're not the problem. We have a problem and we're trying to solve this problem together. That mindset shift is incredibly powerful. And the third thing I really took away from this is

Was just how much we're putting on our teens when it comes to self-regulating around video games, which is something she mentioned it casually. And I had never really thought about it in this way, which is silly because when I go to work, I usually leave my phone in a different room if I need to concentrate.

And I do that because I've developed this physical solution and environmental solution to this problem. I don't want to focus on my phone. I want to focus on work. So I'm not going to have my phone with me. I can't even control my impulses around my phone, which is exactly why I'm doing that. Yet we expect our kids to be able to do that.

And I thought a little bit about the currency thing. I'm going to have to chew on this a little bit. I do that sort of in my worst moments, I guess, where I'm like, you can have this if you do this. And I don't think that's the I want to get away from that as a parent. So I hope you took away something super valuable from this conversation.

Uh, if you're watching this on YouTube, leave a note below, let me know what the most valuable part was for you. If you're listening to it, send me an email, Shane at Farnham street blog.com or, uh,

And just let me know what you thought was the most useful part of this conversation. It's something I want to explore more. So if you have questions, let me know. Hopefully I'll talk to more people about this stuff. And I really appreciate you listening. And as you can tell, when I say let's listen and learn, it's time to listen and learn. You're learning with me on this journey. And I appreciate you.

Thanks for listening and learning with us. For a complete list of episodes, show notes, transcripts, and more, go to fs.blog slash podcast, or just Google The Knowledge Project.

The Farnham Street blog is also where you can learn more about my new book, Clear Thinking, turning ordinary moments into extraordinary results. It's a transformative guide that hands you the tools to master your fate, sharpen your decision-making, and set yourself up for unparalleled success. Learn more at fs.blog.com. Until next time.