The Secret To Attracting True Love That Lasts - Dating Expert Matthew Hussey
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By the way, in case you haven't heard, my brand new book, Feel Good Productivity, is now out. It is available everywhere books are sold. And it's actually hit the New York Times and also the Sunday Times bestseller list. So thank you to everyone who's already got a copy of the book. If you've read the book already, I would love a review on Amazon. And if you haven't yet checked it out, you may like to check it out. It's available in physical format and also ebook and also audiobook everywhere books are sold.

I know it all sounds kind of heady, but this stuff is real. There will be people listening to this who says, "Ugh, does it all need to be so difficult? Can't you just be yourself?" And the answer is no. You shouldn't be someone you're not. But people define being themselves as holding on to all of the things that make them make bad decisions. That's not being yourself. That's not healing.

Matthew has many, many, many clips on YouTube and social media that have gone absolutely viral. And he's one of the world's most famous dating coaches, in particular, dating coaches for women. He's written a book called Get the Guy, which became a New York Times bestseller. My friend said to me, my dad goes to this guy, Tony Robbins, every year. He's doing the Excel Center. Do you want to come? I couldn't believe that someone could command a room like that. And so that was this fusion experience.

of what I loved to learn about with a delivery that I was astounded by. At that point, I just thought this is something I need to be close to somehow. - And he makes videos on his YouTube channel with over two million subscribers and also his podcast, giving people advice on their love lives and dating and relationships. - The health of your relationship isn't two-dimensional. It's not just how many things have I done for my partner today? We lose our value in dating

when we stop paying attention, the consequences of ignoring what I'm saying are a life of suffering. I would love it if we can just start with, so you've been doing this, I guess, career, in inverted commas, as like a sort of dating relationship coach expert. You do videos, you've got courses, you've got retreats. Mm.

How did all this start? And what's, I guess, been the trajectory of your career in this over time? Because I'd love to dig into the details. Where did I start? Well, I was 11 years old, I think, around about 10 or 11, when I was rummaging through my dad's bookshelf.

And he always, wherever we lived, and we went through very different financial circumstances as a kid, but whether we lived somewhere lovely or not so lovely, there was always a bookshelf. My dad was very interested in self-development. So he had how to win friends and influence people on his bookshelf. And I one day picked it up and was hooked very quickly. I think I was a very shy kid. So the idea that you could learn

how to be in the world in a way that would make more of an impact or make social situations less

scary. That was very, very compelling to me. And when I read How to Win Friends and Influence People, I thought I had discovered some sort of secret scroll that no one else knew about. I didn't realize it was a big book. Do you know what I mean? There was nothing that said, you know, bestseller on the title or anything. I just, I thought, wow, I've found something here that can really, really make a difference. And I used to go into school and

sort of practice what I'd learned on teachers and you know like I was almost more comfortable actually doing it with adults than I was people my own age still couldn't talk to a girl at school still terrified of that but I started to use it with adults and I had a DJing

career when I was a teenager that lasted for nearly a decade. And that was, it was very useful in that, you know, I knew, I remember going to do sort of gigs for people my age, but very quickly realizing that it was the parents that it was great to make relationships with, you know, and, and I would go after the gig and hang out with the parents and talk to them. And so, yeah,

Then I ended up going, I got dragged by a friend's father. I say I got dragged, he got dragged. My friend, who was my age, said to me, my dad goes to this guy, Tony Robbins, every year. He's doing the Excel Center.

I have to go. Do you want to come? I have a, I have a ticket to bring a friend. And he, what he didn't know is that I'd already read Tony Robbins book by that. I think I was about 14 at the time. I'd already read his book. I'd already read how to win friends and influence people. I'd already been on my own little self-development journey in private. And so the opportunity to go was actually wildly excited, more exciting than I let on to him. Yeah.

And I went and it became the marriage of all of this content that was really exciting to me. And suddenly an ability in delivery that I had never seen before. I hadn't seen it in any of my teachers at school. I hadn't seen it anywhere else in life. I just thought I couldn't believe that someone could command a room like that. And

And so that then became like, that was this fusion of what I loved to learn about with a delivery that I was astounded by. And that sort of set me on a path. I won't say at that point, I knew what I wanted to do. At that point, I just thought this is something I need to be close to somehow, which has always been a theme of my life. I always think if you like something, you just don't worry about what that means exactly. Yeah.

find a way to get close to it somehow and and that's where it started um what was so everyone i've ever met who's been been to a tony robbins event has just like says that oh my god like seeing it in real life is just a completely different experience to watching it on tv or on dvd tape or whatever it was back in the day what was that experience like for you when you were 14 it

It was genuinely electrifying. I remember just, I have such good memories of that because I felt like we were, as actually two friends he brought, me and this other guy, and the three of us just sat there. We didn't sit with his dad. The three of us just got to sit there and we had the greatest time. And I remember just sort of that feeling of, oh, people just dance here, but there's no, no one's judging anyone else. We're just, we can just have a dance and be silly. Yeah.

you know, oh, there's people crying here, but no one's sort of judging the fact that you're crying while going through something. It was a very, very interesting environment. And it was just, you know, Tony is unbelievable at what he does. And to be in the crowd as a recipient, you know what's cool? I think the more you get involved in coaching yourself or speaking or whatever, the

The harder it becomes to be just a truly vulnerable and active participant in somebody else's show. And that's a shame and it shouldn't be that way. And I fight against that. And I try to just go and live as like really experience something different.

as Matthew, not as someone who in his own life then works with people. Because I think once you develop that skin, it's sort of over for you. The learning, the growth, the vulnerability is over for you. And that's the beginning of just stagnation. But back then, I didn't have anything to prove to anyone. I didn't have to seem like I had it all together in any way, shape or form. And so I just got to

to be a participant. And that was lovely. Oh, amazing. Yeah. I really want to go to Tony Robbins event at some point. His team invited us to something, but it was virtual. And we thought, oh, you know, the real life thing could be interesting. You should go. Cause it's, there's something, look what, you know, obviously anyone could think what they like about the content, how useful it is to them. Everyone has to make their own mind up, but there is something to be learned for everyone in

being in a room like that and, and to even just to learn about impact or persuasion or making a case or how to, how to public speak even, you know, how to, how to, how to have that kind of impact on a room full of people. I don't, everyone can learn. The idea that anyone can go into a room like that and just go,

There's nothing for me here. I don't understand that mindset because you kind of, I remember going back years later when I was doing a lot of public speaking and I remember going and saying to myself, okay, I am got this time I'm going to go and I'm just going to go from the perspective of learning everything I can from this human being in terms of their ability to connect with an audience. Yeah.

And, and I really, I went with that lens and it was amazing. I, you know, I, I try, I remember there were moments where I tried to hang on. What was I at the time? Maybe I was 20, 20, 21, 19, maybe I, but I remember trying to get as close to the stage as possible because I just wanted to see, you know, what does he have on the stage?

Because I knew at that time I was already public speaking and I was like, "What do I need on the stage? How many notes am I supposed to have? What does mastery look like in terms of how many times you look back at your notes?" I just remember getting as close to the stage as possible to try and see, "Does he have notes? Does he have a monitor? What does he use?" That part fascinated me as much as any other. But that's probably me geeking out from a public speaking perspective. Most people won't be interested in that.

So what happened after the event? I was at school and my kind of ambitions, I thought I was going to be involved in real estate somehow because my father was involved in real estate. So I ended up going to university to study real estate. Oh, is that a thing? They had a course...

I think I was in year two of university and CB Richard Ellis, who are one of the big property companies in the world, came around to all of the universities and said, we're looking for five people to go to China and work for us. And I ended up winning one of those five spaces and going to China, which was the adventure was extraordinary. The part where I sat in the office in Shanghai was,

And, and sort of waited for the day to finish. I just realized, oh, I don't know if this is me. I don't know if commercial real estate is my thing. I thought maybe it was. And then I blew short, long story short, I blew an interview at the end of my university career, like really blew it badly. That was like my shot at a really great job in real estate. And when I blew that interview, I

It made me, I was able to not even, I didn't even have to be brave. I was like, well, they took the opportunity of me doing something here has been taken away from me. So I might as well go and start my own thing or go and try coaching, try and public speak more.

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You would have graduated university around age 21, but you said you'd been doing public speaking. What was the public speaking of? I had a couple of years before that. I think I was about 17, 16, 17 at the time. I went to Dow Carnegie's offices in London. I remember going to one of their free events.

I was so into the book and when I heard there was a free event in London for Dale Carnegie, I was like, "I'm going to go." Which is why I always tell people, I'm like, "I was excited." This wasn't me at a certain point who went, "I want to go and sell courses. I want to go and..." For me, that was me. I was the guy in the chair. This was your time, yeah. Yeah. It was what I was excited about. So I was just excited to learn.

And I went to one of these free events and I was at the time, it's not that the event was probably great, but I had come off the back of like seeing Tony Robbins life. Yeah. And I was like, oh, it was so sort of deflating for me. And I remember going to their offices in London and asking them for a job basically. And the guy was very diplomatic who he was sort of that. I think it was the MD there.

He said, "Well, we could have you come here and work to become a speaker, but it would be a long, long path." He used the phrase, "I think we would just slow you down. You're a man on a mission, and I think we would slow you down," which was very Dal Carnegie of him. He knew what he was doing. In my head, I didn't hear a rejection.

I didn't hear someone saying, you're way too young to be involved with us and you've got nothing to offer us right now. I just heard, yeah, he's right. They would slow me down. And so I left and continued on my path. But there was a guy in London who was doing men's workshops and he needed help. And that was useful for me because around, I think I was 18 at the time, I went to him and I was like, look, you...

I'll come and just help you set up the event. I'll help you just, if I can even just do a little warmup for you or whatever, I'll do whatever you want. It was, you know, I always imagine I'm not making any comparison here, but you know, like when I read stories about the Beatles, I read like they just went touring around these tiny venues and would play and play and play at all these small, small, small events.

And that was really what made them so seasoned when later on they had all of this, you know, fame. For me, I was really, really, I count myself so lucky that at that age, I found a way that was very, very low stakes to go and cut my teeth on public speaking. And so there would just be, you know, four or five guys sat around and at a very young age, they'd,

I sort of started being given what I saw as airtime. And again, it was probably that the people that were already working there just wanted a break. They wanted to go on lunch and they were like, if this young dude wants to get up and talk for an hour, that gives us time to go and chill. So that was what I started to do. There's a few reflections on that. So that's so interesting because

I mean, there's a lot of young people in my, actually a lot of people in my audience who are super into like personal development and stuff. Like that's the whole arc of my YouTube channel, essentially. And I always get emails from people who are teenagers being like, hey, I've just read, you know, The Magic of Thinking Big or How to Win Friends and Influence People or any one of the hundred different bestselling personal development books.

And yet, I guess for you, you had that interest and you took the next step of being like, let me actually go to some of these events. Let me cold email the people who run these events and volunteer my services for no money to just try and get some more experience there. Yeah. I don't think I thought of this at the time consciously, but I've always used the phrase since thinking about it consciously, stuff leads to stuff, right?

I think there is something about that phrase that encapsulates so much of how all of us come to do something that we never thought we would be doing or that we, an opportunity we never thought we'd have. You know, even today when you say, Oh, was that the kind of old pickup artist type stuff? There's a part of me that goes, yeah, you know, like, yeah, it was. But the truth is,

At the time, I was willing to be scrappy. I was willing to, you know, it was like, I don't, sometimes I think we so overjudge every next move. I remember giving, I remember a friend of mine who I once, who's an amazing animator. And I once had an animation project that I needed for my business. And, you know, I said to him, do you want to do this?

And at the time, he said something like, "I don't know if that's the kind of work I want to do." I remember at the time, by the way, I'm not saying I'm right, but at the time I remember thinking,

you've made the parameters so kind of rigid for what kind of work you are prepared to do that I worry that you're not... Because doing this thing for me might land you this thing over here that you never would have got otherwise. It might give you a level of exposure. And I'm maybe not right about that. I don't know. There might be people who have much more defined parameters for what they're willing to do. But for me...

As long as it didn't genuinely compromise my core, core values, I always looked at everything like it's stuff leads to stuff. Do I want to be associated with pick-up artists and all of that? No. But is there an opportunity here for me to do something? Is Dale Carnegie letting me on the stage? No. No.

Is anyone with any credibility who's saying to this 18-year-old, yeah, get on stage, talk to our audience? No. So in that situation, it happened to be something that allowed me to learn something at an age. It allowed me to get my 10,000 hours way before most people would ever get the opportunity.

I want to go back to the journey. So you're sort of 18, 19 years old. You cold email this guy who's running workshops for men and he's like, all right, cool. You can be on stage for an hour or whatever. What kind of stuff are you talking about as an 18, 19 year old? Well, I was probably at the time parroting what I had read and heard from other people and filtering it through this kind of

you know, dating centric lens that to some people hearing it who hadn't done my reading felt original or felt like it was sort of groundbreaking, but I was, you know, borrowing or stealing from all these sort of influences that I had read about. And, um,

And, you know, I, I think one of the biggest things I talked about, two, two things I talked about a lot. One was the anxiety of the approach and the other was the deeper confidence that underpins us feeling like it's not that the world has crashed down if it goes wrong. To say that I had figured those things out would have been a lie. Yeah.

But the one thing at the time, the one bit of credibility I had was that I was doing what I was asking them to do. That getting over your fear and actually doing the thing, whether it was in public speaking or whether it was in approaching a girl at the time, I really was living that. So I always felt like, well, as long as I'm one step ahead...

I can always give you something. But I, you know, like I said at the time, I was exploring all these worlds myself. I didn't realize how many...

you know, when I look back now, I sort of cringe at how much I thought I knew. I, it's very cringeworthy in fact, but you know, I, all the later problems would, would come in my twenties when I realized I hadn't figured out any of my stuff yet. And there was all this processing I had to do with my own life. But, but the, the taking a risk part, I felt like I can do, someone could be 40 years old and if they're not taking a risk that I'm taking, I'm,

then I can at least help them take that risk if nothing else. I might not be able to help them get over their deeper issues, but if I can get them over the ledge of this thing that they've never done, that will be progress for them. And it was at the time it was. Just a quick little break before we get right back to the episode. And that's to let you know that this episode is very kindly brought to you by Shortform.

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When I first started teaching my part-time YouTuber academy, just sort of teaching people how to do YouTube, I was so surprised that like 95% of our students are older than I am and were having issues with confidence and putting themselves out there on camera. And initially I had so much imposter syndrome, like what the hell could I possibly hope to teach a 45-year-old executive at McKinsey or something like that? I was like, oh, this person struggles to put themselves out in front of a camera. I've been doing this for years. Okay, I can teach something. And it felt very much this weird sense of,

damn, like real adults actually struggle with these things as well. Yeah. I don't know if you had that kind of experience at all. No, I, you know, what's funny is I now look at both of our arguments there and I'm like, yeah, but maybe they're like, maybe they've just always been afraid, but also the older you get, the more you develop new fears, right?

the more you have sort of things to lose that you didn't have when to lose when you were 21. Or I, I had to go in, in a helicopter recently, which I say not as any kind of a humble brag. I didn't want to go. I didn't, I, I don't, I, I was with a group of people that really wanted to have this experience and I'm not, I had a bad experience in a plane.

that a couple of years back that gave me a sort of a bit of a fear of flying. I can't, it's not a fear I'm able to indulge because I have to go, I have to fly all the time, but I do not enjoy flying the way I used to. It makes me anxious, like takeoff and landing and turbulence and all of that. And I had to, you know, that was with a group of friends who really wanted to do this helicopter experience.

And I said yes, because I was like, I don't want to be the guy that stops everyone from doing something fun on a trip that I'm part of. I'm just going to go along with it. But I can tell you now that 21 year old me wouldn't have had a problem with that at all. It would have been fine. It would have been like, yeah, let's do that. That sounds great. I'm now 35 and it's not such an enjoyable experience for me or I get anxiety that I didn't have before.

And that makes me just, you know, when you're dealing with older people, what you don't know is what they've encountered in their lives. When I was, you know, 25 and working with a woman who was 50 and getting into dating again after a 20 year marriage had fallen apart, my saying, oh, you just have to get over your fear by doing this and this and this. I may be right, but...

I don't understand what she's been through. I don't understand what it's like to have been out of the dating game for 20 years and that everything changed in that time. And that, you know, she's starting it truly starting again at an, at an age that she can't relate to dating at. Cause the last time she was dating, she was 30. And, you know, so,

So you can know something, but not know. I'm guessing that there may have been situations where you might have been working with someone who was afraid to get on camera, but if they're a 45-year-old who's led a whole life and developed many deep connections in their life, and they've had an image that's been cultivated over 25 years of adult life,

and a career where everyone sees them in a certain way, it's much harder. The fear of making a video and putting it out there in the public is a very different thing for someone like that than it is for a 25-year-old whose identity is five years old in terms of their adult career identity, or seven if you count university. I feel like those are some of the things that

You don't consider at a certain age, even when you're saying the right things. Like I did, I remember when I first moved to Beverly Hills, not the Beverly Hills to LA, I remember having this thought that it would be fun to film a video in Beverly Hills. I thought it was so cool. I was like, I just got to LA. I'm going to do a video in front of the Beverly Hills sign. And I went over there and I shot this video and there was this guy who was watching me the whole time.

And it made me a bit self-conscious when I was filming the videos. It's always that funny thing, isn't it? You could make a video for hundreds of thousands or millions of people and yet someone's actually watching you film it and you're like, ugh, a person. That guy came up to me at the end of this video. And the video, by the way, was the three tips to overcoming heartbreak, something like that. This guy came up to me at the end of the video and he goes, you've never been heartbroken, have you?

And at the time I was, I was like annoyed, you know, when someone's feels like someone's caught you out deep down, they're like needling at something. And I was like, how dare he, you know, I'm here making my video and doing, he doesn't know me. And the truth was he sensed, he knew something. He knew from the way I was talking that I had not truly had my heart broken. He could sense that. And so he,

That was where that comment came from for him. Even though I had this righteous indignation, he was right. Now, I've since corrected that. I have corrected that hole in my resume. But at the time, I hadn't. Not really. I'd experienced what I thought was heartbreak, but there's heartbreak and there's heartbreak. Anyone who's been truly heartbroken knows the difference.

and knows that making a video that's called the three tips to getting over heartbreak is sort of absurd in its very premise. Because when you're in heartbreak, you're not going to get out of it with three tips. You are a walking zombie who appears numb on the outside, but on the inside feels like you're dying. And unless you've been through it, you don't know how to truly acknowledge that for somebody else. And I think that for young people,

content creators, and I count myself still among them, we all have to be really careful. And the younger you are, the more careful you have to be that you never fall into the trap of trying to know it all or pretending that you know it all and making that one of your masks. I did it. I fell into that trap. When I was starting out, I really tried to appear like there was no question I couldn't answer. Mm-hmm.

And it was a weakness because it's not true. Smarter, wiser people can smell it and you'll lose opportunities because of it. And I said to someone I care about and love very much, who's kind of go-to reflexive phrase is, yeah, I know. You know, when you're talking to someone and halfway through the sentence before you've even finished, they go, yeah, I know. It's the worst phrase in the world. It's very annoying. And when you get someone like that, you sort of quite quickly realize

decide that teaching them anything isn't fun, it's not enjoyable, and that it doesn't feel good to have a conversation because they don't make, you know, they already know. Okay, you already know. I won't say it. And so you really stop learning when you use that phrase. I wasn't someone who said, yeah, I know, but I certainly acted in my work like I knew much more than I did. And I've since then really...

really enjoyed being someone who doesn't know. Nice. So where you're a young Matthew, you're like 19 doing these workshops where you're kind of helping people overcome approach anxiety and things like that. What happens next in the sort of public speaking arc? I, I started doing small events for women because I, I had this thought that, well, I,

It'd be nice to do something out of the men's area. I was looking for a change. And I was, I think I was just, I was just leaving university. And in that, that crossroads of, am I now going to go and work for a company or am I going to do my own thing? And I started, uh, I started, uh,

I put together a little website and was like, "Well, maybe we just do some small stuff for women." Actually, you know what I did in the beginning? I just said, "If you email me a question, I'll answer it." I had a website and it was for women. I just said, "If you email me a question, I'll answer it." That, for me, was like research. What problems are people having in this area? Do I know anything that can help?

how did you go straight for like from I'm helping men do approach anxiety to, I'm not going to give dating advice to women. That, that seems like a chasm that I wouldn't think of. Well, I originally, I thought here, here's what it was. I read a book, a very well-known book for women at the time. Which one? It was called the rules. Oh yeah. I read that a couple of years ago. It's super interesting. Very interesting. And I, you know, I'm, I don't,

At the time, there was something in there that I read and I went, that's not true for me. There was a particular sentence or a chapter, I can't remember, but it basically said, if a guy isn't coming over to you, then he's not interested. They'll forgive me if I've misphrased that, but that was the kind of tone of it. And I remember thinking,

everything about my life has said that the opposite is true. The more interested I am... Yeah, the less likely you are to... Yeah, 100%. I remember reading that kind of stuff and thinking, oh, this is specifically not... I just thought, wow, this is... You know, I literally have spent my life doing the opposite of that. And that kind of sparked something in me because I thought, I wonder how many women...

are only ever meeting the loudest guy in the room yeah the one with the confidence to approach them whereas the other 90% of dudes are just like are being written off either as not interested or as cowards yeah

You know, you, if you don't, and I would hear women say stuff like that when I, you know, if you don't, if you don't have the kind of stones to approach me, then I don't know if I want you anyway. And I felt very rejected by that because I was like, I'm like a good human being. You know, I would be great for someone in a relationship. I have a lot to give. I, you know,

And the idea that I would be measured simply on that moment that I decided not to go and interrupt someone's conversation and sort of say, hey, based on nothing at all really, other than the fact that I think you're pretty, I'd like to get to know you. Which is a problem for men from the outset is you don't want to be superficial.

You want to form a connection that says, hey, I'm not just some creep.

I'm not just objectifying people, I actually want to get to know you. But the very reason you've gone over to someone in the first place is because you find them attractive. That's a hard thing to... Yeah, it's a big sort of cognitive dissonance there where you sort of... Yeah. You know, why have you come over to me? Because I felt like what you did in the last year at work was really impressive. You don't know that. So...

That's for the most part is what you have to go on is someone's at best. You could say someone's energy if you really wanted to make it about something that didn't feel as superficial as looks. Something about your style. Exactly. Your aura. But I started to think, well, there's actually a lot of really amazing guys out there who aren't in the habit of racing up to every woman they're attracted to.

How do you get women meeting those guys? Because if you could just solve that problem, you're going to be responsible for a hell of a lot of relationships. This was pre-dating apps. Dating apps solved some of that problem because it gave people an opportunity to approach whoever they liked from the safety of a screen, which we know has its problems too, because you could do now all sorts of things from the safety of being behind the screen.

But I, before dating apps, I figured, well, if I can get women to be able to approach a guy that they wouldn't normally meet because he's kind of hanging back and just, you know, doing his thing and he's not the kind of guy that's running up to everyone all the time.

that will have been to some effect. And so I started talking about this idea of the handkerchief and I kind of became known for that. I've seen some videos of you talking about handkerchief. What is the handkerchief for people who are not familiar? It's a metaphor that I started speaking about very, very early on where it was my way of saying to women, you don't have to tell yourself this story that if you approach someone, you're somehow going against your...

nature or what's all the way things are supposed to be, if that's even true. But a lot of women have been conditioned to believe that the guy is supposed to make the move. And I would say, well, if you think that's old fashioned, you don't know what old fashioned really is.

A hundred years ago, a woman might walk past a guy, find him attractive, and inadvertently drop her handkerchief in front of him. He would see it, pick it up, and think this is an extraordinary opportunity to be a man. He'd take it over to her and he'd say, "Madam, you dropped this." She would say, "Did I?" They would now have a conversation. He may have felt he was being the proactive one by, "Ah, I'm going to pick up this handkerchief and walk it back over to her. What a great opportunity to make a move."

But she had initiated that move. She was the one who made the move. She just made him feel like he was the one making the move. And there seemed to be something very interesting in that to me. That, okay, regardless of whether you think women can or can't make the move, of course they can. But almost what I was getting at is it doesn't matter what you believe.

If I can give you a way to be proactive that kind of feels like it's a bit under the radar, then I'm going to get even people who feel like it's not my job to make the move. I'm even going to get them being proactive in ways they haven't before. So I started translating the idea of the handkerchief into practical things that women could do. And it was, the results were really stunning because women suddenly felt like they had choice and,

that they never had before. They were able to get dates and exchange numbers with people and create activity in their love life. They hadn't been doing that for some people for years. They had never had much opportunity in their love lives. All of a sudden, not only were they being proactive and creating opportunity, but they were doing it with people they were attracted to.

They were choosing instead of being chosen, which was very cool. What are the modern-day handkerchiefs on that topic? There was a book that talked about the idea that likability was affected by our ability to do someone a favor.

Now, what the study showed was not the obvious that if we do someone a favor, they'll like us more. It's that if we do someone a favor, we like them more. As long as the favor is not onerous. It can't be something difficult. But if we're able to do a small act, a small favor for somebody, we actually like them more. And I started looking at that in the context of the handkerchief.

I thought that sort of feels like it applies there. It almost feels more potent in the direction of man to woman because a lot of guys have this sort of, "I want to be needed. I want to feel like I'm able to do something for a woman. I want to feel necessary," which is a big problem right now in dating because men are feeling less and less necessary. Everyone's trying to figure out their place right now in the world, which I find really fascinating.

Uh, the, the, the kind of rules are being rewritten. But what I saw is with the handkerchief is, oh, a guy has an opportunity to kind of perform a small favor, which is giving the handkerchief back. So then I said, well, what's an equivalent of, of them? There's all sorts of little ways you can ask for a favor. You could say, excuse me, would you just watch my jacket for a second while I use the restroom, which could be done in a coffee shop in the daytime.

I just need to use the restroom. Will you watch my jacket for a second? Or, you know, I always liked the start of the phrase being, I could, you know, can I get your help with something? Or I could really use your help with something. Could you watch my jacket for a second while I go to the bathroom? Do you know anywhere good around here for X? What did you order? That looks really good. I, you know, it, it,

These are all very small things, but they give someone the opportunity to do a small act of service for us. What I also like about it is it breaks the ice in a way that doesn't feel like breaking the ice. So when you come back from the bathroom and you say, "Thanks so much for watching my jacket." If you then say, "How's your day going anyway?" or, "That book looks really interesting," or whatever.

You feel like you're already starting at 30 mile an hour versus if you were just there and you turned to someone and went, how's your day going? Yeah. That's a bit weird. Now you can do it, but it's a lot of people feel like they need that like 30 miles an hour to get going. So that became my version for people of dropping the handkerchief is ask a very small and easy favor of someone and then allow that to be the bridge to an actual conversation. Nice.

Yeah, that I guess is fairly or somewhat similar to the whole indirect openers that guys will often use around like, hey, you know, can you tell me where the nearest coffee shop is or something like that? I'm new here. Oh, where are you from? It's just a way of prompting a conversation in a way that's not something like, hi, I thought you were pretty and I wanted to talk to you. Which takes a large amount of almost too much confidence for most guys. Yes. And

you know, there's how you can make someone else feel awkward and there's all sorts of things. I, I think for anyone else, for anyone out there, man or woman, one of the things, if, if this is the kind of content you're interested in that I have found most helpful in my life is something I call two hit theory, which is the idea that how, when you go out into any environment, uh,

You have to be someone who's easy to talk to. Focusing on approachability is as important as focusing on how to approach. And what a lot of us do is we go into an environment, we wait until we see someone that we're attracted to, and then we obsess over what the hell we would say if we tried to talk to that person. And now we spend the whole

time that we're there becoming more and more nervous as the stakes get higher and higher and we start to imagine how wonderful this person is that we think is attractive and how lucky the person is that gets them and all the thing the qualities about them that we wouldn't admire if we got to know them they become something they become this projection that is so removed from what we actually know about them right now which is we just saw an attractive person that's it

Two-hit theory is when you go into a room, the first hit, as it were, is small interactions with people. It might literally be like, that looks really good because someone ordered a plate of food and you're like, that looks great. That's a hit. That's an interaction. It might be walking up to the bar or the counter and someone's next to you and you're like, hey, how's it going?

Like a moment. You don't remove the intention. There's no intention. Doesn't need to go anywhere. Doesn't need to be a conversation. Nothing. Just a moment. And you do that with more people than you normally would. You have these little hits. Now, what to me is really, really powerful about this is such an understated thing. But what's really powerful about it is most people, when they go to any environment, they're either alone or they're with one or two friends. Yeah.

Outside of those one or two friends, who's the person they're most likely to talk to at some point during the evening, at some point during that event? They're going to talk to the most approachable person. They're going to talk to the person they've already had some small interaction with that became a kind of green light for a natural or organic exchange. Yep.

If you've had the natural or organic exchange with someone, it's weird to say, but you're their third best friend in the room. And if you go around being the third best friend of everybody who came with two people, just because you are a little bit more approachable than everybody else...

Then it's, you're going to find that a, some interactions just gravitate back to you an hour later or two hours later. B, even if you're the one who initiates, you already have that initial interaction to go by. Yeah.

And the fact that that initial interaction didn't come with you... There's always something about someone coming over to you and talking to you for the first time and then standing there and facing you as they're talking to you. And you're almost unable to process whether you find them attractive or whether you are interested in what they have to say because you're so busy worrying about, are they ever going to leave? So when someone does this two-hit theory that...

That first thing, that first interaction you have with people helps them also. They've already recognized that you're not the kind of person that needs them. You left the first time.

So, now when you speak to someone, the stakes feel much lower for someone. Yeah, there's like safety as well. Like, you don't feel as if... Yeah, they're just not going to leave. They're just going to... Oh, God. Watch this now. It's like getting on... You know what it's like? You know when you get on a plane and the person next to you starts talking to you? Now, maybe you're in a sociable mood and that's awesome. Or maybe...

Like me, you sort of have a whole bunch of things that you're kind of excited to do on that plane. One of them being nothing. And there's a part of you, and it's not the best part of you, but there's a part of you that instantly goes, oh no, am I next to a talker? Is this now going to be my flight? When someone says something for 30 seconds and then says, well, it's nice to meet you, and then goes back to their book, you go...

Oh, okay. And then it's almost like you wouldn't mind if you ended up talking to them more because you go, oh, this person's chill. They've got their own thing going on. I liken it to that. And too often when we're in the mode of, I want to get something, we forget to communicate to other people that we don't actually need them.

Just a quick note from one of our sponsors and we'll get right back to the episode. And this episode is very kindly brought to you by Skillshare. If you haven't heard by now, Skillshare is one of the world's leading platforms for online classes for online education. They've got thousands and thousands of classes on all sorts of topics from business, entrepreneurship, lifestyle design, cooking, interior design, loads of stuff.

And very excitingly, I've actually been teaching on Skillshare since 2019 and I've got 13 classes on Skillshare. Yes, 13 classes. And you can access all of them completely free of charge by going to skillshare.com forward slash deep dive. And that link will give you a free one month trial to Skillshare during which you can watch any and all of my classes.

Now, if for example, you happen to be a student or you're just interested in lifelong learning, then I've got two classes on Skillshare that I've taught that you might be interested in. The first one is my how to study for exams, evidence-based tips study class. And that basically compiles every single thing that I've ever learned and that the research shows on what are the most evidence-based and effective ways of studying for your exams. And I also have a class on Skillshare around how to use Anki, which is the world's most popular flashcard app

which you can use for studying for exams, but also for learning languages, for learning music theory, things like that. And loads of people have taken that class and said that that class was so good that they would have literally paid hundreds of dollars for it. But you get it completely for free on Skillshare by going to skillshare.com forward slash deep dive. After your trial's over, you can choose to continue the subscription if you like, and you can access the thousands of classes Skillshare has from other teachers, including people that I know, people I'm friends with like Thomas Frank and Nathaniel Drew. But yeah, the main reason to check out Skillshare, of course, is that you want to check out my classes if you want to learn about

productivity and video editing and YouTubing and even cooking. So head over to Skillshare.com forward slash deep dive. And thank you so much Skillshare for sponsoring this episode. Yeah, this is something that Mark Manson's book Models, which I'm sure you've read, talks about a lot. I haven't. Oh, you haven't? Is this his new one? No, this is his really old one. This is from like 2011, back when he was a pickup.

So this was before the Sattelart. This was before the Sattelart, before he became like a general person. No, I never read it. Oh, it's by far the best book I've ever read in the pickup genre. And it's really all about this idea of embracing your own vulnerability and being non-needy. And it was sort of, when I came across that, sort of like the antidote to a lot of the other BS that was out there in the sort of pickup genre. And then this book was really about genuineness.

genuinely men's personal development and it's okay to go up to people it's okay to show vulnerability emotional intelligence it was just like great great on all fronts um but his like a big part of his his thesis was that look you know the thing you want to sub-communicate is non-neediness that you don't need this person and therefore become the sort of guy who has your own stuff going on and therefore you genuinely don't need this person and so when you're having a conversation with someone there's no strings attached to that conversation you're not like

Your self-worth is not dependent on the way that they interact with you. And his theory in the book, which I think is broadly true, and I'd love to get your take on this, is that people can tell, people have a very finely tuned radar for like neediness. And when someone seems a little bit like too approval seeking or something like that,

Um, and I, I suspect that's a big part of, you know, when generally women describe generally men as creeps, it's like, there's something about the interaction that gives them that kind of, that kind of message. Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. I talk about the, um, there being a kind of a formula and I don't mean this crudely. I just mean there are certain components to deep and lasting attraction. You have chemistry, um,

perceived value, perceived challenge and connection. The reason I like this model is because when you look at this, you can usually see, you can sort of self-diagnose where something may be going wrong. Chemistry is interesting because there's certain, there's a certain intangible there and an unknown there and not, we certainly can't control all of it. But

But we can control some of it. The way that we look, how well we take care of ourselves, the way we move, importantly, is a big factor in chemistry, which is why you can sometimes see someone in photos and think they're really attractive. And then you meet them in real life and you kind of go, oh, weird. I don't feel the same way. It's also why you can get back from a date and say, oh my God, I just had this amazing date with this incredibly hot person. And if you show pictures of that person to your friends, they're like,

Okay. Yeah. I guess, you know, because you, you were there, you were there, you saw how they move, how they smile, how they gesture, how they, their micro expressions. So there's certainly things we can do to affect chemistry. Uh, and obviously you can create tension too, which is a big factor in chemistry, in chemistry. Then there's perceived value and perceived value is all these things that, that we are and do that bring value to the table. Uh,

It might be our personality. It might be the things that we're good at in life. It might be our life, the life that we've built. It can sometimes be our friends and family. Sometimes you meet someone's friends and family and you go, "Whoa, what a life this is to come into." They have an amazing group of people around them, so much love. There's a lot of ways for perceived value to manifest itself. Then there's perceived challenge.

And the interesting thing about perceived value is it goes down regardless of how many things are in that category if there's no perceived challenge. And perceived challenge is not the kind of, I don't know, a typical way of thinking about it, I guess would be like hard to get. It's not, that's a cheap way to create challenge because the problem with hard to get is you can't keep it up forever. The moment you are got...

If someone's, if your attraction was built around the getting, then you can't sustain it. But if the real beautiful, sustainable way to create challenge is for there to be, for your value to have a price. Okay. What do you mean? That your value doesn't come for free. Your value is something that has to be earned by someone showing up in the way you're prepared to show up.

by someone being prepared to make the kind of sacrifices you're prepared to make for someone, by someone giving to you on a level that you're willing to give, respecting you on a level that you respect them, and also not giving someone too much credit too quickly. That's a big problem. When we come from a needy place, when we come from a place of insecurity, we start giving people credit they don't deserve yet.

I just had the most amazing date with the most amazing person. Oh my God, they're incredible." Based on what? Based on what basis? What information could you have possibly got on one date that enables you to say this? You have been seduced by a kind of charm, charisma maybe,

The fact that you did something really fun on the date, the fact that they made you laugh a lot, the fact that they told stories about their past that made them relatable or sympathetic or seem really authentic. All of that is great. I'm not saying be inherently suspicious. I'm saying you don't know. You don't know. So on what basis are you giving them all of this value already based on projection?

And based on insecurity, there's immediate putting them on a pedestal and putting yourself down here. And when someone smells that, they don't see an equal anymore. And that's what I mean when I say challenge. I don't mean artificially constructing games or hoops for people to jump through. I mean that the criteria you have for someone has to be real. It has to be real. Like it's...

You and I met today for the first time, really enjoying our conversation. Hope you are too. But we don't know each other yet as friends. You don't know if I'd be reliable if you needed something. You don't know if I would show up to support you if something went wrong in your life. You don't know any of that. So it would be dangerous to go away and make a

an assessment on how great of a friend I would be based on this exchange. It, what, what you would hope in an organic situation is that you and I go, this was really, really fun. We got on really well. This was a great conversation. I would like to get to know this guy better. That would be like, it'd be really cool if we could hang out outside of the podcast and

But it's not, I have to be friends with Ali, you know, like I have to because he's an amazing guy. You know, like now that's dangerous because I'm basing that on the fact that you're clearly outwardly a very impressive human and what you've achieved, what you've done is very impressive. And you seem to have had a really amazing kind of impact on...

on a lot of people. Those are all amazing things. Those are amazing things in their own right. It's not about devaluing those, but I have no idea what your value would be as a friend until we try being friends. The mistake people make in dating commonly is they look at someone's stats

How charming were they? How charismatic were they? How successful are they? Where are they in their life? What kind of person do they seem to be? But none of that exists in relation to you. That's all just you admiring what this person has or is. But none of it says this person's going to be a great boyfriend or a great girlfriend.

None of it says they're going to be loyal. None of it says they're going to be reliable. None of it says they're going to be a great teammate. All it says is this person seems on these metrics to be attractive. And in any relationship, you have to go through four, in terms of importance, you have to go through four stages. One is admiration.

That's just where I can see someone and admire them from either up close or afar. Wow, this person's pretty impressive and attractive. Not very important. In the stages, not important. Necessary, but not important. Then there's connection. Connection.

Or chemistry. Both. That's the next stage of, do we feel connected to each other and is there a kind of chemistry? All right. Now it's slightly more important because now it becomes mutual. Now it's not just me admiring you. It's, oh, there's something between us. Not important. Because necessary. Yeah.

but not important. How many people have ruined their lives over the fact that they had chemistry with someone, even when that person was a terrible partner, a terrible person to base their decisions on? The next stage is commitment. Okay, I admire you. We have mutual chemistry and connection, and we're both actually saying yes to each other. I deal with people every day where they have this stage, but that person isn't saying yes.

They're saying, "Yeah, I'd like to see you this Friday at 11 o'clock." But they're not saying yes to an actual relationship. You need commitment to go to the next stage of importance. But many people are treating something like it has total importance, even though they're only at the second stage. You need a yes. You need commitment. Now, you would say if you've got that, that's the most important thing you can have. You've got someone you admire, you've got someone you have a connection with in chemistry, and you've got someone who is committed.

It would seem like that was everything, but that kind of idea, is it Virgil, love conquers all? Love does not conquer all. Two people saying yes to each other doesn't make for a long-term relationship. You also have to have the fourth stage of importance, which is compatibility. Are you actually compatible? Because if you're not, you can say, yes, I want to be with you. Yes, I'm committed. But

That lack of compatibility will show up in ways that will make both of you miserable. Well, what do you mean by compatibility? It could be anything. It could be my idea of a good time is staying home watching movies and yours is constantly traveling around the world. It could be your idea of a good time is going out and drinking and doing drugs. And I don't want to live that life. And we've both said yes to each other, but

You know, our idea of what is a good life is completely different. Or our idea of loyalty is completely different. Your idea of loyalty is that I don't have sex with anyone. My idea of loyalty is that you don't emotionally cheat on me in the texts you send. You know, we've both said yes to each other. We have admiration, connection, commitment. And yet I am miserable because of what your definition of loyalty is.

So compatibility is, do we both want to live the same kind of life and do our values line up? And do we both have the same idea? Two people can say I value kindness, but we can have very different standards for what kindness actually means. So without that stage, so many things go wrong. What I mean to say with all of this is that we lose our value in dating when we

stop paying attention to the appropriate level of importance at different stages. If you take stage two, I found someone I have a connection with. As the be-all end-all and the thing that you martyr yourself in service of, you lose all your value. You are now the person who spends a lifetime

accepting really poor treatment from someone because every time you see them, it's amazing. You don't understand when we're together, it's so good. It's so incredible. They're so there for me that the sex is amazing. The chemistry is amazing. We have such amazing conversations. What's the problem? I haven't heard from them in two weeks, but Matt, you don't understand the connection is incredible. You don't like this. This is really important to me. Why?

Why? Because you have miscalculated the value of stage two. And when you do that, you lose your value because someone realizes your value, what you're willing to give has no price. It's free. It does not need to be earned. So your perceived challenge drops. And when you're perceived, when there's no challenge to you, when someone realizes your value has no price,

then you lose respect and you end up losing real value as a result, which is crazy. But I know it all sounds kind of heady, but this stuff is real. There'll be people listening to this, guaranteed. There'll be someone in the comments who says, does it all need to be so difficult? Can't you just be yourself? And the answer is no.

Because you may not be doing the things that make you confident or that show your real value. You shouldn't be someone you're not. But people define being themselves as holding on to all of their values.

the things that make them make bad decisions, or that make them their trauma, or the things that they haven't healed, or the things that make them chase after someone who will ruin their life. That's not being yourself. That's not healing. That's not doing the things that are necessary for you to attract a much more quality version of connection and love in your life. The reason that I've geeked out on all of this stuff is because the consequences of ignoring what I'm saying

are a life of suffering. And I have watched it over and over again. I have watched women get to their 40s where they just gave up 10 years of their life to a guy that was never giving them what they wanted, was never on the same path as them, but they ignored it because they valued the connection so much, or they valued the chemistry so much, or both. And now their window for having children of their own has gone.

And the grief that comes after that is profound. I actually see that pain. So when someone in the comments says, oh, you don't need to do all of this. You don't need to think about all of this. It's the same as someone saying, no one needs therapy. No one needs to work on themselves. Just do you. Okay. Okay. Then do that.

I'm not that guy I'm not someone who's saying all of this to other people and then not doing it for myself you know I'm I'm on a path myself I have a therapist I have coaches I have people that help me I and I will continue to my whole life because why my life gets better when I get better love it that's a great chemistry connection perceived value perceived challenge um

Is there a difference in weighting or anything? And I guess this is a broader question. Is there much difference between dating advice for men and dating advice for women? Because I feel like the more abstracted you get in dating advice, the more it feels like it applies to both sexes, genders, whatever term we want to use for that. But also then there are...

The more non-politically correct you go down the different genres of men's dating advice and women's dating advice, the more polarizing it seems. It's like, okay, this is for men and this is for women. So how do you straddle that somewhat dodgy ground of like, this works for men, this works for women, this works for... I think that you have to just be honest from an empirical perspective.

About what men seem to struggle with and what women seem to struggle with. Okay. You know, I mean, there's a, the empirical perspective, the empirical perspective is, is just really us a fancy way of saying what seems true based on what you actually experience and then acting on solving the real problem, the real thing that you're seeing over and over again. I think that it's empirically true for a lot of guys, um,

more than it's true for a lot of women that men struggle to be vulnerable. Now, women struggle to be vulnerable too. There's no doubt about that. Everyone does. But when it comes to, let's say, being strong and appearing strong and appearing masculine, appearing alpha, men struggle to be vulnerable.

because a lot of men, maybe most, have learned that a huge part of their value is tied up in how strong of a man they are, their ability to dominate, their ability to be the alpha of the pack. This is very male-conditioned language. I'm not an anthropologist, so I don't need to talk about

whether it's biologically programmed or where it comes from, whether it's genuinely a part of us and always will be, or whether it's just societally conditioned. I don't need to be part of that argument. I just need to deal with men the way they actually are today. And a huge number of men are terrified that if they display any weakness, a woman is going to run the other way and she's going to go and date the alpha of the pack. So you can, in that you can just say, okay, regardless of whether getting into the details of,

of how different men and women are biologically. I think you can just say, men struggle with this. How do we get men to be vulnerable, but in a way that allows them to still feel attractive? Or how do they search for someone? How do men start, instead of putting stock in how many women find them attractive, which may no longer be the best measure of your happiness, is figuring out how to be attractive to the

Instead, maybe it's helping men redefine, oh, happiness isn't being attractive to the maximum number of women. Attractive is finding a woman or happiness rather is finding a woman that really accepts you with everything that you struggle with, as well as everywhere that you're naturally strong. Yeah.

And that real happiness is going to be finding someone who can hold both parts of you. They both celebrate where you're amazing and strong and naturally gifted. And they also are able to accept and truly see the parts of you that are afraid, the parts of you that have trauma, the parts of you that don't feel like you match up.

to other men or other situations or whatever. That to me, and by the way, doesn't then define you by that. You know, doesn't, I always remember a relationship where I said something very vulnerable. I talked about something that had made me insecure that night.

And it really felt like it was thrown back in my face. Like it didn't go well. You know, I'm a huge Brene Brown fan, but in that night I hated Brene Brown. I was like, I was like, I should never have said this. Yeah. I just, I feel like I just lost all attraction in that moment. And when you're afraid like that, you get mad because you're like, I'm never doing that again. But yeah,

That would have been to learn the wrong lesson because the right lesson would be, oh, I need to find someone that is capable of actually seeing this part of me and understanding it. And also in seeing it and understanding it, not then labeling me as that. Not saying, well, now that you've said that, I'm going to stay with you and I'm still going to love you, but I'm going to see you as insecure. No, just someone who says, oh, I see that part of you. Mm-hmm.

you're still a man to me. You're still like this. I just understand that sometimes you feel like this." That should be happiness to men. But a lot of men have been conditioned to believe that happiness is being attractive to the maximum number of women. And so what do men do? What would I argue is a very male problem?

is men striving their whole lives to get as much power and status and success and money as possible in order to achieve being attractive to the maximum number of women and therefore being happy. And so you then see how you can spend a lifetime getting it backwards without the right advice. But if I went to a room full of women

I don't think anyone could argue that it would seem a bit odd if I went into a room full of women and said, we need to talk about the fact that you guys worked your whole lives to acquire money and power and status so that men will like you. That would seem, everyone would go, I think you walked into the wrong room. You know? So that, because empirically,

We know that that would be a strange message in that room, but in a room full of men, it would be a very, very necessary message. And it would do a lot for men's happiness if they were able to truly absorb that message. So what are some things that women struggle with? Well, if we were to stay on subject for that, a lot of women struggle with the opposite seeming to be true.

The more I achieve and the more status I get and the more money I acquire and the more I have it all together, the more it seems I'm turning people off. The more it seems I'm pushing people away, that people are intimidated by me. And I think that there is a very interesting thing going on right now where...

Everyone is, everyone is trying to find their feet again. There's like a recalibration happening because you still have, you have a generation of women who are being now told, Hey, like you can go and go and do what you want to do. Like go make something of yourself, go, go hard for that promotion, for that job, start that company, do that thing. And all of that is amazing.

But you still have a lot of men who have been told or brought up on the idea that your value is your ability to provide. Your value is your ability to look after. I mean, my mom loves women. My mom always wanted a girl. She tried three times. She got three boys and then she gave up. She desperately wanted a girl, but she's old school East End girl.

For those of you that are not in London, if you think of the Cockneys, that's the East End. My mum's old school East End. She was brought up to believe that as a woman, a guy should look after you. And so as her son, she brought me up on that idea. You do this for her. Don't you dare let her pay. If I find out you let her pay, there'll be murders. That's my mum.

My mum would see a girlfriend of mine pick up a bag and be like, don't let, what are you, Matthew, pick up that bag. Don't let her do that little thing. Don't look at her. Don't get, get that bag for her. That's my mum. So I grew up with this idea that

Oh, I need to pay for everything. I need to make sure that I open the door, that I pick up the bags, that I do this, that I do that. That's my value. So what happens if I come face to face with someone who says, I don't need you to carry my bags, which my fiance has done routinely. I heard her laugh over there when I said that, because we've literally had this conversation where I'm like,

Like she'll be picking up something that is legitimately heavy and I'll be like, I, I've, you know, I, I can do this. Just like, let me do it because I'm, I can be, this is an area where I could be useful. And she's sort of in those moments. Now look, truthfully, if she really wants to pick up the bag, fine. That's on me to be okay with that. But she also knows and is empathetic enough to understand that that's kind of a nice moment for me to be useful. Yeah.

Right. But if I came face to face with someone who, and I hadn't done the work I've done, and I was in that old paradigm of, well, unless they let me pay for everything. And by the way, that must mean that they need to earn a lot less than me because otherwise they don't need me to pay for everything. And all of this feels like a bit of a farce. So now I need to date someone who earns a lot less than me so that it makes sense for me to pay everything. Yeah.

And I need someone who is, hasn't got as much status in their work because I'm supposed to be the one who's providing. And I need, so you can see how that version of me could come up against someone who is, has been taught, go own it, do your thing, build your life, become successful, earn money, build a company, whatever. And those, that would feel like an incompatibility. And she would say, he's just intimidated by me.

And I would be going, I don't know what I'm needed for here. And so on the guy's side, that's a miscalculation because men now need to learn that there's a much more diverse range of ways that you can provide value in the context of a team than in those very two-dimensional ways. Yeah.

But men need to learn that, and that's hard. You're literally asking men with that to rediscover what their confidence is based on. That's a tough thing to do. We're talking years of work to completely redefine what your worth is and have it come from a deeper, more nutritional source. Then on the other side,

I think that, and again, I'm not an expert in this, but I've seen 15 years of coaching literally hundreds of thousands of women in person and millions online. I've watched as people kind of

It's almost like if someone says, I don't need a guy for this and I'm good here and I'm good here and I leave work and people are intimidated by my energy. And sometimes I want to say, look, I'm not excusing guys because everything I just said about guys is true. They've got a lot of relearning to do or learning for the first time. But hey, don't forget, it's actually not that attractive for you to have this energy all the time. There's different kinds of energy that make

a person attractive. I pride myself on the fact that if you come to one of my speeches, you may just laugh and cry in the same speech. That's what I call unique pairing in attraction. A unique pairing is when you find two different qualities that are both attractive, but on their own can be a bit two-dimensional. But when you find them in the same person, that creates a 3D effect that is mesmerizing. So if you find someone who's really sexy,

but then they can be completely goofy and make you laugh. That's a unique pairing. You're like, whoa, normally someone's just sexy. Normally someone's just funny and I want to eat pizza with them, but I don't want to go home with them. Now I find someone that is super sexy. And then after the fact, I want to spend all day with them laughing. Well, we might just have a relationship. That's a unique pairing. And I think that a lot of people have forgotten that. They've become addicted to

to a certain way of being that has worked for them. If it's being like hardheaded in business that's worked for them,

But the problem is you're what, and usually it starts young, right? What we get validated for, we keep doing. If you're funny, you keep being funny. If you're successful, you keep acquiring more success. If you're, if people like you for your looks, then you double down on that. We all have those things that we got validated for early on. And our validations become our mutations. They become the things that we go, we keep doubling down on and, and,

We become less and less diversified in our energy, our personality. You can't be one great song. You have to be an album. Everyone has to be an album. Some albums have sad songs. They have happy songs. They have up-tempo songs. They have slower songs. You got to be able to be all of those things. And everyone should ask themselves, men and women alike, am I being an album or am I being this one great hit?

and hoping that someone sticks around. I had a relationship with someone years ago in my early 20s when, or it was just as I was approaching my 20s. And I remember asking this person why it, months after the relationship ended, I was like, why did you not want to be in it anymore? And she said, honestly, I said, yes, I guess. She said, it got boring. She said, you were so ambitious.

And that was really, really attractive at first. But then it was all you were. It was like it was all you could talk about. It was all we did was you just talk about work and whatever. It was never anything else. And that was a very important lesson for me in my life because I realized that one side of a unique pairing can actually, Christopher Hitchens once said that the key in relationships is not allowing your advantages to negate themselves. Oh, nice. Yeah.

And in his case, what he was talking about is he was obviously a formidable debater on the stage and he did it for a living. But when he was at home, he said when he was in an argument with his wife, the guy on stage would come out and really think about how to win this argument. And even after the fact, he would go away and like work on his case and come back and be like, all right, I've got the death blow to your argument.

And he realized there was no points for that in his relationship. This was the mother of his children. He was not trying to win a debate on a stage. Your advantages can negate themselves. It's worth everyone asking, what are the strengths I've been riding on and where have they become my greatest weaknesses?

What's the deal with masculine and feminine energy? And how does that relate to kind of your coaching thesis, anything like that? Do you know what's so funny? Someone asked me this the other day, and I feel like I just had a terrible answer. I don't... I feel like people have become very caught up with the language of things. And

at the risk of reiterating the point I was just making, I really do think that it's almost worth looking at what would make me boring. If I was just masculine all the time, however you want to define that, if I was just assertive and dominant and decisive and ambitious and whatever, if you want to, I, there were people I'm sure who, uh,

far more educated than me on what the traditional masculine feminine actually means. But in terms of when I think of what I associate it with, if you were just all those things all the time, it would be terrible. I don't want to be friends with a guy like that.

You know what I loved most about that trip to Poland with Wim Hof was that we were a group of guys that we were doing hard things together. Like it was not easy. We were jumping off of cliffs into frozen lakes and trekking up mountains in the snow in our shorts. But that wasn't even the part I enjoyed the most. Like the part I enjoyed the most was when we actually sat around and as a group of guys, everyone got vulnerable.

And that we would have doing the things that wouldn't have been traditionally associated with masculine energy. So, and even, even Wim, who's this kind of like seems invincible said by the end of that trip, he was like, this has really helped me because I feel like I've been able to be vulnerable in a way that I'm often not able to be. And that was, that felt beautiful to me. So, and because of that, I felt so much more connected to,

to that group of guys. I felt like, oh, I really feel like that. I feel bonded to you because I feel like I understand you and I feel like, oh, all my fears and the things I'm worried I'm not good enough and they're being articulated by you guys too and I feel less alone as a result. So, and that in some ways it was like doing all those hard things together felt like it was almost a way of getting to that. If

So I know all the men in my life, they have the qualities that would be traditionally, I suppose, associated with feminine energy. The best friends I have have those things in spades. When I think about would I have ever been attracted to someone who just had feminine energy, I don't think that I would have been.

I think that I always needed someone who was able to be those things, but I also wanted someone who could be protective, who could step up and make tough decisions or show up or be aggressive or be ambitious. Those things I wanted in some sense too. Me and Audrey, we this year did an event called Hell on the Hill, which is a Jesse Itzler

A friend of ours does an event every year where you have to climb a hill a hundred times. It's a brutal event. It takes four hours and it's very, very hard to complete. You have to complete it within four hours and you have to go at some pace to complete this thing. And it brings down even some of the toughest people that I've met. Me and Audrey, I did it last year and then I dragged Audrey along to it this year and

And it was so attractive. It wouldn't have mattered to me if she finished or not, but it was so attractive to me that in the hardest moments of that, I saw a grit come out in her that was, I was like, whoa, that's like a, there was a, there was a gear in her that even though there are times where she's just very sweet and likes to, for me to protect her and take care of her and

She's not, she, she in that moment was like, there was this grit and I was like, this is inspiring to me because I'm struggling right now. And she's like gritting this thing out and she's not letting it beat her. And I saw this whole other side to her. And that for me was, it was amazing. It was amazing to watch. And it only made me more attracted. So I, when I say, I think people get caught up in language.

I say that because I think everyone should be looking for a person who is able to kind of hold that duality inside of themselves instead of necessarily kind of being attracted to something two-dimensional. Because if you choose something two-dimensional, it's almost like you're choosing to be happy half of the time. Yeah.

Because you're going to, okay, you're going to date this hyper-masculine guy. And that's going to feel fun when you want him to be a caveman. And it's really going to be depressing and miserable when you need to

talk to someone who's able to be vulnerable and relate and connect deeply and be, and reveal weakness. It's going to be utterly miserable as a guy. You can date the person who's, you know, it's like the ultimate feminine energy and then find that, Oh my God, I'm dating a princess. And I need right now, this chapter of my life calls for a teammate, right?

Not someone I just have to protect and provide for. I need someone who's climbing the hill with me right now, and instead they're asking me to carry them. This is a problem. So I think whether you call it masculine, feminine, or whatever, I honestly, sometimes the arguments, the way that they're phrased, it bores me because it's like we spend all of our time debating over theoretical nonsense. Mm-hmm.

in the abstract, like from a rational perspective, instead of just, again, coming back to what's fun. Fun is dating someone who has whatever you want to call them, both sides of the spectrum. You may lean one way or the other in terms of what you're looking for. That's fine, but that's fun. Being attractive is being able to be different parts of the spectrum at different times and showing different sides of yourself.

As is, by the way, to me, being a fully expressed human being is being able to, you know, there's this part of me that doesn't normally come out. And maybe that's not because it doesn't exist. Maybe it's just because it's never been entertained in you. Maybe no one's ever encouraged it. Maybe people told you you couldn't be that or you weren't that.

But all of a sudden you find, oh, there is that part of me. And you see that in all walks of life. You see women who have always been told they can't. And then all of a sudden someone believes in them or someone says, what are you talking about? Go try this. And then they try it and they're a beast. And you go, whoa, look, that was always there. Sometimes there's guys that you typically associate with a more feminine energy and

And then maybe they have always done that too, but then they, they go try something new. They go take a boxing class and they're like, this, this brings out a side of me. Do I want to live there all day? No. But for that one hour a week, this like, this brings out a side of me that I don't normally get to entertain and it feels good. And it feels good. Not because I'm sort of wearing a weird outfit that I'm not supposed to be wearing. And that's fun. No, it feels good because I'm, I'm actually expressing a part of me that,

I had convinced myself wasn't there to be expressed in the first place. I hope that's not too kind of abstract. That makes perfect sense. So one thing I've often heard, and I don't know, I don't know to what extent this is just a stereotype or if it's actually, actually a thing. The, the trope of women saying something like, you know, I know I want to marry Mr. Right, but I find myself attracted to Mr. Exciting. And I,

And I guess it's a situation that you dealt with, I'm kind of guessing. And I guess I want to lead from that into the question of to what extent is attraction a choice?

And how much, like, if, for example, I find myself attracted to the sort of person who is not good for me and whatever, whatever that might look like. Can I nudge my deep core into being attracted to the nice guy or whatever? Or is it like, like what's, what's going on there? What a fantastic question. I think that to an extent we chase what we know. Yeah.

And sometimes being attracted to something other than what we know or historically have been attracted to is a matter of curiosity, of actually opening ourselves up to a different kind of person, to a different kind of situation and exploring it for all it is. We tend to be very, we make up our minds quite quickly about things, even labeling someone a nice person. You know, Elaine de Botton would say they're not that nice.

You know, nice is a kind of a mask. They could be as freaky as the freakiest person you've ever met when it comes down to it. You know, this idea of labeling someone a nice person is... Or labeling someone the bad boy. Why? Because they didn't call you for three days? That makes them a bad boy? You know, because they were a bit of a jerk to the bad boy? Like, what are you...

What is that? What is that label? Do you think they're the bad boy all of the time? Like you think they're that person 24 hours a day? Of course they're not. But based on this label you've given them, they're exciting. Based on this label you've given this person, they're boring. So I think that

Yes, of course, there is a sense of there's a kind of reflexive attraction that we can have for people. But I think that's sometimes a lack of imagination and a lack of curiosity. If you took time to actually get to know

I'm not saying you go on a date with someone where there's absolutely zero chemistry and you just keep hitting and hoping and going, oh, I'll see them again because maybe one day chemistry could come about. No, I don't believe that. But I always think if you feel like some kind of interesting tickle in a direction that you haven't felt it before and you go, well, this isn't normally my type or this isn't normally my person or this isn't.

I feel something, follow that. Give that chance because that might actually lead you somewhere you've never been before and where you've never been before might be the answer.

I think that we, we prejudge a lot. We judge what we're supposed to have, what we think our friends and family would, would validate, you know, Oh, he's really good looking. Well done. You know, and you, so you kind of start looking for that, even though you might find that an attraction with this person that doesn't look like that, you feel validated by the fact that other people are

are giving you the social proof around that person. So you feel like you keep... And that's, by the way, it's how people get themselves in so much trouble. They show off their partner and they're, oh my God, he's so tall, handsome and successful. Look at you. Good job. And they're miserable at home with this person. But every time they go out and hear...

Well, he's very impressive. And they go, oh, I should like, yeah, I should be grateful. This person's amazing. I should continue to be grateful, you know. So we have to be careful of the outside conditioning. And we also have to be careful. Dr. Romani and people in her profession, psychologists would talk about the kind of the trauma bond.

that exists when we've been used to, you know, a parent that neglected us or that, that was very hot and cold in our lives. And that becomes kind of what we know. And so we get attracted to, to that behavior in others. Um, and we try and complete a journey that never felt finished when we were young. And it, so we also have to be very careful of what we're labeling attraction. Yeah.

Am I labeling this trauma and this heightened sense of anxiety that I have around you because you're fickle and you never make me feel secure? Am I labeling that excitement?

Oh, I just, what is it I've got with this person? I, and the more they, they don't call me, the more I'm like, Oh, they did something special about this one. Why is it? Why, why are they getting more attractive? The less they try? Yeah. What's going on here? You know, we have to really suspect those things in ourselves.

And I think that another way of looking at attraction, and again, I'm not an advocate for don't care about chemistry. Care about chemistry. But if you start to look at all the things that would make an incredible partner and would make you feel secure and at peace. And if you start valuing kind of a real sense of deep peace over the kind of drug-fueled high,

then you are going to start looking at people a little differently because you're not going to over index for chemistry. You may still see it as necessary. It's a necessary ingredient, but I don't have to live my life trying to find the greatest chemistry of my life. It's the same way, you know, when it comes to food or drugs, there's a feeling of I'm looking for the greatest high, but the,

The greatest high isn't the thing that will make you the happiest sustainably. So at a certain point in life, I think we sometimes come to terms with what feels like a boring conclusion. That feeling better, and I'm still learning this with food, so I'm not going to talk like I've got all this figured out, but feeling better consistently is...

Just even though it means sometimes not eating that thing or not doing that thing and that feels frustrating or boring or whatever, I just value it more. I value feeling peace in my life and feeling a sense of going into my day with a sense of happiness over feeling at an astronomical high because of a drug I just took that I get for three hours and then it gets bad.

You know, like it's a certain point. I almost feel like you have to say having a nutritional lasting sense of happiness starts to win over looking for the high that cannot be sustained. And I don't think we look enough for people who...

where we've, where we truly, as my fiance would put it, chase the right things. You always reliably pay the price for chasing the wrong things. It may be, it may be, uh, it may be fun often is, and it may work for a minute, but you always end up having to come. You always have to turn back at some point. You always end up having to come back to chasing the right things at some point, if you want to be happy. And I think that a lot of us, um,

at different stages of our life go on those detours of chasing the wrong things i certainly have my time kind of and i'm i'm sure i'll fall into the trap again at different points in my life but you you know a lot of people in their 20s you have to chase the wrong things and you go on those detours and um what did i see recently and lord the new lord of the rings no i haven't seen it yet okay i won't ruin anything but there's just that there's a line in it

Where someone says, sometimes you have to... I think he says, sometimes you have to touch the darkness in order to know which way the light is. And, you know, you kind of don't... I don't know if anyone gets to just...

know and appreciate the right things unless they have come face to face and have some brush ins with the wrong things, whether it's in the form of a tremendous heartbreak from someone who was very charismatic and exciting or whether it's really is with alcohol or whatever other highs life offers. And there's always, there's always going to be something that

you kind of feel like you've cracked it. Like, no, no, no, I can make this work for me. And then you realize you can't. So that's my answer to the attraction question. Be willing to be attracted to things and follow feelings that

are unusual to you and maybe a little scary, not because there's, there's red flags, but because it's a represents something new and different and a different type, uh, be prepared to, uh, make your own mind up on how wonderful someone is. Even if your friends don't applaud how tall, dark and handsome that person is or how gorgeous that person is. Um,

have a real sense of what they offer and what does that look like over a long timeline. Nice. A couple of questions about long-term relationships. So honeymoon phase, what's the deal with that? Yeah. I want to be really careful on this because talking from a place of humility, I've not been in the kinds of long-term relationships that other people have. I'm now engaged.

I'm incredibly happy and excited about the future. But there'll be people who

you know, have like Esther Perel's work is a really big influence for me because this is someone who not only has had a long-term marriage, but has written extensively on the subject of love and desire in relationships. And I would absolutely point people to her book, Mating in Captivity, which I think is an extraordinary read and something that so many people can learn from. To paraphrase Esther's work,

which is no doubt much more eloquently put in her book. She says that there's love and there's desire and that love, um,

Well, let's start with desire. Desire is what exists first. We see someone, we become attracted to them and we desire them. And we want to close down the space between us and them. Desire exists in the space, right? The mystery. Who are you? What are you all about? Could you like me? Could I win you over? Could, you know, I want to know you. And then as someone says, yes, you have the building of love, right?

So we start to know each other. We start to get closer and closer and closer and closer and closer. And we have this feeling of kind of oneness between us. And all of that fosters feelings of love. As Esther would put it, the paradox becomes how do you continue to desire that which you already have? And so now as you kind of become that unit of

There's less space between you. There may feel like there's no space between you. And so desire becomes suffocated because desire exists in that space. And then you, so then you enter that world of, well, what does, what does desire look like in a long-term situation?

We don't want to play a game in a long-term relationship where we kind of are constantly making our partner feel on edge so that there's a sense of danger. And yet...

Desire sometimes wants a sense of danger. Desire sometimes wants a sense of mystery. Desire wants a sense of spontaneity, of the new, of the unrecognizable. Now, people want it to differing extents. The honeymoon period is going to be much more important to some people than others because some people are wired and engineered to want security.

So for them, love is going to be much more important for them to achieve than to maintain feelings of desire. For other people, they're engineered in the opposite way. It's much more important for them to constantly feel like that excitement than it is for them to feel safety. Not that they don't want to feel safe at all, but it's just the balance is different. And so I think what's kind of interesting is firstly to try to

find somebody who's not engineered completely differently than you, where they, you know, it's all love and no desire, or it's all desire and no love, because that's going to be miserable. But you may find that you're not calibrated exactly the same in those two things, and that's okay. But that to me is where it's really important to listen.

To your partner's needs. We get so caught up in a relationship in figuring out what we need. What's my love language? What makes me feel loved? And the dangerous thing is that we start giving to somebody else what we would wish they would give to us. So if we like security and we think that's the highest priority,

thing you can give someone then we start going out of our way to give them as much security as possible i love you i love you i love you i love you i'll never leave you i think you're the most amazing person on earth and so on and we give them lots and lots of security right and we end up giving them that thing that we crave but it doesn't mean you're wrong for craving it just means that you're you're not necessarily listening to what that person requires because they may just be engineered

little different. So I think it's really valuable to just think about what are the things that make my partner, that stoke desire in my partner? Because in a way that to me is what the honeymoon period is. The honeymoon period is a couple of things. Firstly, it's thinking we're perfect. I think you're perfect. You think I'm perfect. And that just feels unbelievable and idyllic. And then we realize we're not perfect. And

You go through a storming period and the dust settles and now you have a real relationship where we actually see each other and say, I'm still here, even though I really see you now. To me, that's the transition into a real relationship. But beyond that, it's also, I think, the honeymoon period is that period of intense desire. I think it's worth paying attention as you transition in your relationship to whatever the next phase is. Really pay attention to what are the moments where my partner...

feels desire. And this can be a kind of exercise in really paying attention, like write them down. It may sound weird to people, but like, right. Cause you will forget, write down. I just did this thing tonight. I just wore a completely different kind of outfit and something about that outfit really

got them going. I'm not even saying it was a really sexy outfit. It might be an outfit you wouldn't even imagine was sexy to them, but something about that outfit did it for them. You go, okay, noted. Oh, I just went away with my friends for a weekend. And when I came back, there was this intensity. Okay, that's interesting. All of those little moments, they're like a formula that

that can help you sustain that desire within a relationship. And I think when you stop paying attention to those things, it's another way of not paying attention to the health of your relationship. The health of your relationship isn't two-dimensional. It's not just, how many things have I done for my partner today?

But I don't understand why they're so ungrateful. I made them this. I did this. I called them at the end of that and asked them how it went. I did that. I did that. Okay. All of that is beautiful. But value in a relationship isn't two-dimensional. Sometimes value to someone is, hey, you haven't seen your friends in a minute. You should go see your friends. Go hang out with them. You haven't seen those two friends in a while. You should go hang out with them.

Are you sure? Really? I feel like you'd be, oh, I'll be good. I'll chill. I'm going to do some stuff I really want to do. But you should go do that. That's another form of value. If you crave security, that might be unnatural to you because you might be like, I don't want them to go out with their friends and leave me for a night. Yeah.

But that might be the very thing that makes them go, whoa, I've never had anyone do that before. I've never had anyone encourage me to go and have time with people I care about. They're always sort of jealously guarding my presence and my time. So that's another form of value. Yeah.

And that to me is like real mastery in relationships is going beyond what is comfortable to give beyond what is feels normal for you to give and really listening to what, what makes them feel a certain way, whether it's love or desire, what stokes that in that person. Let me pay attention so that I can replicate that in the future.

Amazing. Matthew, thank you so much. This has been wonderful. We still have 13 years of your backstory to dive into and the business model around it and all that kind of stuff. So it'd be great to do a part two sometime, either when you're back in London or potentially when I get a visa to come visit LA. Thank you so much. This has been an absolutely wonderful conversation. Where can people find out more about you?

Well, firstly, thank you for having me because that was amazing, amazing questions. I would say to anyone who is going through challenges in their love life, if you go to yourdatingsolution.com and specifically if you're a woman, you will find

a quiz there that you can take and it will suggest to you my best solution to what you're going through. So that's pretty cool. Um, if you want a really fun freebie and you're trying to get over someone, uh, go to move on strong.com, which is going to help anyone who's going through tough times right now with someone in their life or someone they're trying to move on from.

And I'm also at Instagram, TheMatthewHussey, for anyone who just wants to follow me casually there. Nice. And we'll put links to all these things in the show notes and the video description. So thank you so much for coming on. Thanks, man. Appreciate you.

All right, so that's it for this week's episode of Deep Dive. Thank you so much for watching or listening. All the links and resources that we mentioned in the podcast are gonna be linked down in the video description or in the show notes, depending on where you're watching or listening to this. If you're listening to this on a podcast platform, then do please leave us a review on the iTunes store. It really helps other people discover the podcast. Or if you're watching this in full HD or 4K on YouTube, then you can leave a comment down below and ask any questions or any insights or any thoughts about the episode. That would be awesome. And if you enjoyed this episode, you might like to check out this episode here as well, which links in with some of the stuff that we talked about in the episode. So thanks for watching.

Do hit the subscribe button if you want already, and I'll see you next time. Bye-bye.