The Science Behind Why Relationships Last Or Fail - Drs John & Julie Gottman
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In a successful couple, here's what they do. The minute they sense that they're getting flooded, one of them will call for a break and say when they'll come back. Then come back at the designated time when you're calmer. And the conversation will look like you've just had a brain transplant.

You might already have come across some of the research that the Gottmans have done. They are world-famous researchers in the field of relationships and divorce and marital satisfaction. A lot of people will apologize almost immediately, and that doesn't work either. And the reason is because you haven't heard your partner's experience of the fight, so you don't really know what you're apologizing for.

There's a bunch of super interesting research they've done in the Love Lab, where they analyze the interactions between different couples and they use those to predict divorce rates further down the line. Now that we know what can create a successful relationship based on the couples that we studied, and there were over 3,000 of them, we now can help couples succeed in the future in their relationship.

Genuinely, these guys are some of the most famous people in the world when it comes to the field of relationship research. And so it was so exciting doing this conversation. In the conversation, we talk a lot about all of these topics, like how to sustain love in a relationship. What are the things that predict divorce in married couples? What are the practicalities

things that we can do in our romantic lives to be more intentional and effective in the way that we show up in our relationships. Very close friendships, your relationships with your children, and your love relationships. If the relationships were high in quality and the marriage really made them happy, they would live 10 to 15 years longer.

At the moment, according to YouTube analytics, 81% of you who are watching this on YouTube have not yet hit the subscribe button. And so if you're, for example, in the now 81% of people who are watching this on YouTube, but who are not subscribed to the channel, I would love it if you could do so. And it'd be awesome to get that number down to 50%. And it would be cool to get like 50-50 sub non-sub ratio, just for fun.

So guys, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Like absolutely fantastic having you here. Been a long time admirer of your guys' work and, uh, and in particular your book, uh, eight dates is something that my girlfriend and I are going through at the moment. Um, so yeah, thank you. Thank you for everything that you've done in the world of kind of being more intentional about relationships. So I'm super excited to have this conversation. Oh, thank you so much, Ali. We're really happy to have the opportunity. Right. This is going to be fun. So, um, uh,

I'd love to start off by addressing, I guess, you know, a lot of people listening to this or who click on this in the podcast player or on YouTube might be thinking, you know, it's a bit intense talking about relationships and writing books about relationships. And aren't relationships and love supposed to be more of a instinctual thing where it kind of comes naturally to people? Why do we need all this over analysis and overthinking about relationships?

That's a great question. First of all, because all that good romance, beautiful stars in the sky, moon above, is all about chemistry. It's all about hormonal attraction to begin with.

and then getting to know one another. And as the relationship deepens, up come the patterns that typically people may have absorbed from their childhood or from other relationships that they then use to work out conflicts, to develop friendship, and so on with their partner. And a lot of times,

what they do doesn't work and it creates sometimes a lot of frustration, pain, anger, and so on. And John, in his brilliance being a pioneer back in the 70s, figured out slowly but surely over the years what really makes relationships work and what unfortunately makes them fail.

This was research I did with Robert Levinson, who's a psychology professor at UC Berkeley. I did that work together. Right. And so...

Now that we know what can create a successful relationship, not based on us by any means, but based on the couples that we studied, and there were over 3,000 of them, we now can help people by creating interventions, which we've done, to change how people relate to one another if it's not working in order to really help couples succeed in the future in their relationship. Right.

How do you analyze these 3,000 couples? What's the research methodology here?

Well, it's really very simple. What we did was, first of all, get a very broad sample, representative sample of the places we did the research in the cities and rural areas we did the research. And then we had couples just come into the lab after being apart for eight hours, talk about how their day went. We videotaped them.

And while they were talking, we had synchronized physiological data we collected from them, sort of measuring heart rate, respiration, blood velocity, things like that. And then they talked about an area of conflict that they hadn't resolved. And then we showed them their tapes and they let us know what they were feeling every second.

And we interviewed them about the history of their relationship and so on. And then, you know, for the first 25 years, Bob Levinson and I didn't help anybody. We just tried to find out, are there masters of relationships? Are there disasters? How are they different?

And the answer was those differences that we discovered between the masters and the disasters actually replicated over time. And we spent a dozen years studying gay and lesbian couples using the same methods and looking across the whole life course from couples dating up through couples in their late 80s. So that's the research process.

that Bob and I did before Julie and I got together. And she's a very experienced and talented therapist. And so we started designing interventions based on all that ability to predict so well the future of a relationship and then tested the intervention. And now, almost 50 years later, we have a set of interventions that really do help couples. Fantastic. So I guess that kind of begs the question, like, what are the things that predict the

whether a relationship is going to work, would be happy, and what are the things that sort of herald the disaster in a relationship? Now, one of the things that Bob and I found right away is we just looked at how

positive people were when they talked to each other, how affectionate, how much they laughed together, interest in one another, curiosity versus hostility, anger, you know, content, sadness and disgust. And we just took a ratio of how many seconds of positive emotion was where they're compared to negative emotion.

And we discovered that the masters, even in conflict, had five times as much positive emotion as negative. Whereas the disasters, that ratio of positive to negative, average 0.8. It's just a little bit more negativity than positivity.

So that was one of our first discoveries. And then we asked, are there some negative things that are more predictive than others? And we came up with the four horsemen of the apocalypse. And Julie can explain what that is if you want. Oh, sure.

So these are the great big predictors that can predict with over 90% accuracy six years down the road where you're going to be. You're going to be together happily with your partner, unhappily, or will you already be separated and divorced?

So the first one is criticism, and all of us are familiar with that one. There's no such thing as constructive criticism. None. What do you mean? Yeah, when your boss tries to critically tally

tell you feedback, that's not a good thing. So what criticism means is blaming a problem between you on a character flaw of your partner. So some examples of that are you're so lazy you wouldn't think of cleaning up the kitchen. Why are you so irresponsible? You're always postponing how long it takes to pay the bills.

You know, what's happening with you? What's wrong with you is one of the great criticisms. How are you supposed to answer that? You know, it's saying you in general are wrong. So those are criticisms and they hurt.

And the natural response to that is the second horseman called defensiveness. And defensiveness, we're familiar with two. There's two types. One is whining like, I did too pay the bills on time. Or counterattack. Oh, yeah? Well, when was the last time you took the car in for repair? You know, it's a counterattack. Yeah.

So that's defensiveness. We have criticism, defensiveness. The third is really the sulfuric acid for a relationship. It's called contempt. And what we mean by contempt is it's criticism too, but from a place of moral superiority. So it includes some scorn, some disgust. It's often expressed through sarcasm.

Like, oh, yeah, I'm sure you picked up the tickets. Ha. You know, contempt is

is also name-calling, all those horrible names when we get very angry that we'll call somebody. Could be mockery also. Ooh, you're so scared! You know, that kind of stuff. So contempt is horrible, and it not only is the strongest predictor of relationship demise, contempt also destroys the immune system of the listener.

We discovered that in 15 minutes of conflict, the number of times a listener heard something contemptuous was

predicted how many infectious illnesses they would have in the coming years. Isn't that amazing? So the immune system suppresses or fights off viruses, colds, flus. Tumors. Tumors, right. And the people who experienced more contempt got sicker.

over time. So that was scary. Finally, the fourth horseman is what we call stonewalling. And stonewalling is when one partner completely shuts down, absolutely gives no response to the person, pretends they're not even there. We'll sit there but not give any nod of the head, anything verbal.

And that's related to another finding of ours about physiological flooding, which John can explain. But that, what we call stonewalling, turning into a stonewall in the middle of a conversation, is our fourth horseman.

Right. So the physiology was very predictive. And what we found was that when people's heart rate gets above 100 beats a minute, or if you're an athlete, 80 beats a minute, we start secreting our two stress hormones, cortisol and adrenaline.

And that shuts down the ability to listen. People repeat themselves. They think they're being more persuasive when they yell instead of, you know, talking quietly. They, you know, they really escalate their behavior and they can't listen very well. They can't take in any new information. So the physiology is very important because once people are

secreting those two stress hormones, the conversation might as well be over because nobody makes any advance. They don't get creative as problem solvers and so on. Yeah, another word for this is fight or flight. And I'm sure your listeners have heard of that. That's what we're talking about. So when you're facing your partner, it feels like you're facing a saber-toothed tiger. Yeah.

So in that context, let's say you're in the middle of, I don't know, an argument with your partner and you're finding yourself feeling those triggers of fight or flight. What do you do in that context? In order to succeed or in order to fail? Which one, Ali? Let's say both. What does success and what does fail look like? What are the kind of options that we have in this context?

Okay. So fail looks like staying there in the conversation when you're in fight or flight. And what happens is you escalate. You get louder. You repeat yourself, you know, ad nauseum. You start to move into more criticism, more contempt.

You can't think straight. You don't hear your partner at all. So nothing you say is a response to your partner. You're just yelling your own point of view. Maybe, maybe even getting physical in the worst cases. In a successful couple, here's what they do. The minute they sense that they're getting flooded in fight or flight, one of them will call for a break and say when they ask for a break...

when they'll come back to talk about the conversation, you know, that topic again. So they'll say something like, honey, I've got to take a break. I'll be back in an hour. Then let's talk again. That way, they don't leave the other person feeling abandoned and not knowing if they're ever going to talk about it again. Then when the partners separate into separate quarters,

They each do something that is self-soothing.

not think about the fight because if they think about it, they'll stay escalated, but do something else. Distract yourself. Read a magazine, a book, listen to music, meditation, go for a run, all kinds of things you can do to self-soothe. Take a bath and then come back at the designated time when you're calmer. And a way to tell if you're calmer is take your heart rate.

And if your heart rate is back down to normal, then you're good. If it's not back, go back to your partner anyway and ask for more time. Give a second time, you'll return until you can talk calmly with one another. And the conversation will look like you've just had a brain transplant. I guess we've all been in cases where in the moment, right?

Like someone might be listening to this or have read one of the books and then but in the moment when you're in that adrenaline cortisol state, your kind of rational thinking goes out the window and you almost like forget that. Oh, I should I should do this kind of thing. I should take a breath. I should pause. Do you guys have any any strategies that people can use to almost like recognize they're in that state or like in that moment to override the I guess default instinctive emotional response to continue to lash out?

Yeah, you know, that's such a good question, Ali. What I ask my clients to do and what I try and practice myself is pay attention. When I am first getting escalated or flooded, it's really important for me to know what are the signals inside my body that tell me I'm starting to get flooded.

So, you know, you're not going to maybe be able to recognize all this stuff the first time, but pay attention. Some people will have their jaw get tight, their breathing get shallow, their chest feel tight, or they may feel kicked in the gut.

Maybe their fists start clenching. You know, there will be signals each person uniquely has when they're starting to get flooded. What are yours? What are mine? Yeah. Oh, I never get flooded, honey. That's such a laugh. Okay. So mine are typically...

I'll feel heat rising from my belly and I'll feel very, very, very hot throughout the trunk of my body. It's like, you know, my temperature's just gone up 20 degrees. How about yours?

Yeah, I think for me, when I find myself repeating myself and I know I'm going to get flooded, and for me it's a constriction in my throat that lets me know that I'm getting flooded when this gets tight here. And I know, oh boy, I should take a break. Right. That's my signal. And we've had many opportunities to practice. Yeah.

That's a very positive way of looking at it. Yeah, I think for me it's when, like as you were describing that for me, I think it's when I find myself in...

debate mode where i'm just sort of imploring the other person to just like surely you could surely you can see that you're just being unreasonable here or you know that kind of stuff and i'm like oh hang on i love it surely you can see like what's the matter with you are you so dumb that you can't see this i love it i'm gonna practice that one you can see the logic of my position i'm so smart um

On that note, actually, I've got a question about this, but before we go there, we talked about the four horsemen. Let's say someone's listening to this or watching this and they're thinking, oh, damn, you know, I've definitely got some of one or more of those in my relationship. What are the actions that someone can take if they recognize that their relationship is sort of falling into one of these four horsemen? Well, one of the best things that you can do, we call processing a regrettable incident.

Now, here's what that means. This is a particular intervention. When you've had a really bad fight where some of those four horsemen have thundered through the conversation, it's really important to go back with your partner and talk about what happened in the way that you communicated, what went wrong in the way you communicated, and then apologize for it.

And we have a five-step process for this, where each person names their feelings that they had during the regrettable incident. Then they narrate their point of view about what transpired. And needless to say, there's always two points of view. And they could feel like they're on opposite planets. But they're both valid. They're both right.

So each one presents their point of view. The other one summarizes what they just heard the partner say and gives a few words of validation, like, I get it. I can see how you would have felt that way. And then third, they talk about what may have gotten triggered for them. And triggers mean feelings that come up for you during a fight or a regrettable incident that

that are the same feelings you may have had long before this relationship, that may have started in childhood or in a former relationship. And those can include things like abandonment, rejection, feeling judged, feeling frightened,

Those kinds of old feelings you've been carrying inside you your whole life, perhaps. So you talk about those triggers and what stories go with those from your past. You share one of those stories.

So your partner really understands better the scars that you carry inside from old experiences and can try to avoid triggering those. And then the fifth step is to talk about one thing you can do differently and one thing your partner can do differently to avoid something like this from happening again.

That's how you process a regrettable incident. How long afterwards would you recommend waiting to process a regrettable incident? Are we talking like the same day or like in a couple of days from now? Like what sort of time period are we thinking?

Well, it can be whenever as long as it's not immediately afterwards. So some people won't know they're supposed to do this and then they'll go back and process something 20 years later, 15 years later.

The way that you know you need to process it is that it still festers in your mind. When you think about it, you can still feel the awful feelings of that event. That means you need to process it.

But with that said, you have to be very calm when you sit down and process. And I like to tell people, imagine that you're in the upper balcony of a theater after act one of a play. That play down on stage was the two of you fighting. And you're talking to your partner about what happened during act one. That's the kind of calmness you need to have before you talk.

Nice. Is there, to what extent is there utility in talking things out at the time? Like, you know, we've just had an argument. I'm kind of upset. She's kind of upset. Yeah.

Do we just like continue for the rest of the day as if, all right, cool, let's park this and then carry on with our day? Do we kind of get time apart? Like how do we deal with it? Like let's say that evening or that day before we are both in that state of calm to be able to discuss it maybe tomorrow or the day after? Okay. So can you talk about it immediately afterwards? Is that what you're asking? Yeah.

It's not how they relate. What do you do while the emotions are still like, still they're not quite at that calm level where you can discuss it fully calmly? I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't do it because it's so easy to slide into the old argument again. You'll slide right back into the fight. And also a lot of people will apologize almost immediately. And that doesn't work either.

And the reason is because you haven't heard your partner's experience of the fight enough to know how your behavior impacted them. So you don't really know what you're apologizing for until you've heard the story of your partner's experience and you've been able to share yours too. Because usually both people in some way are responsible for what happened. Not always, but often.

Nice. That's great. Already got a very actionable point I'm going to take away from this conversation, so thank you. When we were talking earlier, we kind of joked about me being like, hey, can't you just see how wrong you are? There's a bit of a, I find, emotions versus logic. I wanted to talk about that. When

And I guess, you know, one of the things I wanted to ask was, you guys have a book, The Man's Guide to Women. And it's very unfashionable these days to even begin to suggest that men are from Mars and women are from Venus and men are like this and women are like that kind of thing. But one of the things that often happens

Well, certainly in my relationship and most that I know, there seems to be this kind of balancing act between one party wanting to be very logical about like, okay, X led to Y led to Z, therefore ABC, and the other party being, I guess, more in touch with their emotions. How do you guys kind of navigate the whole logic versus emotions territory? I guess, in particular, when it comes to regrettable incidents, arguments, fights, whatever we want to call it. Yeah. You know, the...

Logic versus emotion kind of thing is a false debate because you can be very logical and still be emotional. And in fact, we need our emotions to problem solve creatively. We need to know what we feel. So we have to get in touch with our intuitions.

So just because we're emotional doesn't mean we can't be logical as well at the same time. So that's a false dichotomy between emotional and rational. So we can be very rational and still be emotional. It's very important that we listen to the emotional part of what our partner's

perceptions are and how they make our partner feel. Because if we don't listen to the emotions, then they won't feel understood. They won't feel respected. And so we have to develop that competence to really see and perceive emotions. And if we ignore emotions, the repair we try to make during conflict is not going to work.

If it's all very cognitive and intellectual and we're not really taking into account our feelings and our partner's feelings,

we won't solve the problem. It just won't work. So emotions have to be understood, recognized, and validated. We have to see the logic of the emotion for our partner. Let me add something. So the intervention that we were talking about, processing a regrettable incident,

We have a booklet for that, a little booklet that guides you through this five-step process I just described. And the first step has feelings, and it's a list of feelings, all the different kinds of feelings. There's about, I don't know, 50, 60 of them that are listed.

And each person goes through the list saying out loud any of the feelings on the list that they had during the incident. And the thing that's interesting is we've never ever had anyone, man or woman, not mention a feeling. You know? So I think, you know, there's also this myth that...

that men are more logical than women and women are more emotional. It's absolutely a lie. It's just not true at all. Men have just as many feelings as women. And it's interesting because in our culture, we have been socialized in different ways. So for women, it's not okay for women to express anger.

That's not okay. They'll be called the B word, right, if they express anger. They're not just angry. They're a bad person in this way.

For men, they're not really allowed to express the more vulnerable feelings like fear, worry, sadness, you know, anxiety. Nope, that's not okay. Anger is fine, but nothing else is. So we have to realize that all of us, whatever gender we are or mixed gender, we are feeling beings, right?

We all have emotions. It's just a matter of recognizing them and naming. All right, we're just going to take a quick break from the podcast to introduce our sponsor, which is Huel. Now, this is very exciting because I've actually been a paying customer of Huel since 2017. I started eating Huel in my fifth year of medical school, and I've been using Huel regularly ever since because, you know, I like to be productive. I, you know, my calendar is full with a lot of things. And I've been using Huel for a long time.

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This episode is very kindly brought to you by WeWork. Now, this is particularly exciting for me because I have been a full-paying customer of WeWork for the last two years now. I discovered it during, you know, when the pandemic was on the verge of being lifted and I'd spent like the whole year just sort of sitting in my room making YouTube videos. But then I discovered WeWork and I was like,

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which is why it's particularly exciting that they're now sponsoring this episode. And if you want to get 50% off your first booking, then do head over to we.co forward slash Ali. And you can use the coupon code Ali at checkout ALI to get 50% off your first booking. So thank you so much WeWork for sponsoring this episode. Do you find, like, for example, your book, The Man's Guide to Women, is that, surely that's not exactly identical to The Woman's Guide to Men.

um, there, there, there would be different advice that I guess you would give to men and you'd give to, and you'd give to give to women. So I guess like what I'm asking is what are some of the kind of men's specific advice that you would give? Let's say if I was, if, if, if I was asking you, Hey, you know, what are the common mistakes that men tend to make in relationships? And then we can talk later about what are the common mistakes that women tend to make in relationships? What does, what does that divide look like?

Well, first of all, men know that women have a cycle, right? So they have a menstrual cycle through the first, you know, I don't know, 25 years maybe of their adult life. And that's happening regularly every month.

And I don't think men understand so well what happens to women when all those hormones are flooding their bodies from that menstrual cycle. What can happen, there's more fluid accumulated in the body due to hormonal changes.

changes and that fluid affects all of the body, the brain included, and the woman typically will become more sensitive. So she'll be more sensitive emotionally. She may take things a little harder than during the time when she's not about to have her period, for example.

Um, so you've got to watch that kind of swing of moods, um, and pay attention to that and not necessarily believe that some of the stuff that she says a few days before her period is exactly how she feels. Because it may not be. It's going to vary over time. Um, another thing is to realize that, um, women...

are basically they're the custodians of the relationship.

So women typically see ways to improve the relationship. They're always watching for, is this a good relationship? Is it loving enough? Is it kind enough? Is there enough friendship? Is there enough intimacy? Am I being listened to, et cetera? And so they'll bring up issues more commonly than men. Men can kind of coast on, yeah, this is fine. This is okay.

But women tend not to. And so they're going to bring up issues more regularly just to make sure the relationship stays on track. And that can make men feel like whatever I do, it's not enough.

You know, I just, God, I try and try and try and it's never enough. And that's one of the things women have to be sensitive to in men. So men are trying very hard to be the best husbands they can be, the best fathers they can be, and they're working hard at it. And sometimes they may not understand what a woman needs. For example, if a woman comes home stressed from her work,

The man thinks, as he listens to her, that he should offer her a solution to whatever she's stressed about. Wrong. That's going to feel condescending to the woman because it's another way of saying you're not smart enough to figure out a solution, so let me give you one.

Right? That's the message she may take from it. The thing that men need to do in that situation is to not offer solutions unless the woman has specifically asked for that. And instead, just listen.

to what she's saying. Try to feel a little bit of what she's expressing. Ask her questions like, what's the most upsetting part about this for you? Or help me understand how this made you feel so anxious. I want to really get inside that and know that. And then give words of empathy.

And empathy is going to look like, no wonder you felt so angry. Wow. Yeah, I would have been upset too. That sounds terrible. So you're really stepping into the partner's world emotionally and hanging out in there with her, empathizing with her, so she doesn't feel so alone anymore.

with those feelings. Not feeling alone is the big stress reducer. Not getting a solution to a problem. It's not feeling alone. You mentioned earlier when we were talking that recently you've done a lot of research on gay and lesbian couples. I wonder what's been some of the surprising things that you found from that research, I guess, compared to heterosexual couples?

Yeah, one of the things that we discovered is that gay and lesbian couples are a lot less defensive when their partner presents a point of view than the other.

male-female relationships. They have more of a sense of humor. They're less critical and less defensive. So we have a lot to learn from those relationships. You know, we think, well, you know,

since, you know, they're the minority, their relationships, you know, they're not the majority of relationships, then there must be something wrong with them, something defective. We found, in fact, that in many ways they were superior to heterosexual relationships. There wasn't as much competition and dominance struggling for, you know, like, who's going to win this argument? It

It was much more equal and much more understanding. And they had a better sense of humor about themselves.

So it wasn't as much war the way it is between men and women. And they didn't get into these standoffs. They basically would say, oh, well, that's an interesting point of view. Let's talk about your point of view. And here's what I think you're saying. And is that right? So they were just much better communicators.

than, you know, the battle of the sexes, which typifies a lot of heterosexual relationships. The standoff, you know, where there's a power struggle. They didn't have as much of that. And that was really interesting to discover. One of the biggest, biggest, biggest, most important differences between men and women in heterosexual relationships, it's about sex.

The biggest difference is that women need emotional closeness in order to be open sexually. Men typically don't. They may use sex as a way to feel emotionally close. And let me explain that.

As one can imagine, women have a history of thousands of years of being raped, sexually abused, hurt through sex. And we feel it in our bones, even if we haven't experienced it ourselves. We don't feel safe in the world.

We do not. You can take a room of people, give them an example of you're walking into an underground garage. How many of you feel afraid? Almost all the women will raise their hands. Almost none of the men will.

I mean, it's just, wow, it's really a huge discrepancy. So when a woman is being most vulnerable, which is typically during sexual intimacy, she really needs to feel safe.

particularly if she's had any kind of sexual abuse in her background. And we know that at the minimum, one out of four women by the age of 18 has experienced sexual abuse or molestation. And those are the only ones who report it. It's probably a higher percentage than that.

So women need to feel emotionally close in order to be sexually open. And men, we need, as women, we need to understand that for men, a lot of times, you know, men may feel like, oh, it's too childlike to just ask for a cuddle, ask for a hug.

So we'll be manly and we'll go for sex, which gives us, you know, all the touch and all the hugging and, you know, all that contact that we need as well as pleasure. So women need to understand that their men are looking for emotional closeness through sex and to be as giving as they can.

Yeah. So on that note, you often hear like in Cosmo magazine and stuff, you know, that the classic advice for men is, hey, if you, you know, if you do the dishes, then she's going to be more open to having sex. You know, that kind of direction of stuff. To what extent is there truth in that? Is that related to this idea of it signals emotional intimacy kind of thing?

Yeah, absolutely true. It's, you know, in general, if housework is not just women's work,

if you're sharing in the housework and childcare, especially childcare. And we need fathers to really be much more involved with their children because it's good for both sons and daughters. Fathers make a unique contribution to the intellectual and social development of both sons and daughters. So that sharing, the sort of everyday maintenance of the home

with women means that women aren't doing a second shift. When they come home from work, they have another shift. They have to do all the housework and childcare and all of that. And that usually really separates men and women. One study done at UCLA at the Sloan Center found that with dual career couples in Los Angeles,

They spend less than 10% of an evening in the same room. And they talk to each other around 35 minutes a week, mostly about errands.

So, you know, a lot of these marriages, you know, intimacy is not being maintained. The relationship doesn't come first. So if both men and women are involved with the children and they're involved with the house, then it doesn't feel to a woman like she has to do a second shift when she comes home from work.

And he's more of a partner. And again, it gets back to what Julie was saying. You know, women need to feel close to feel safe. And then...

the situation can be erotic as long as there's not a big to-do list in her mind. Like the dog needs to be taken for a walk and the kids are asking for milk. Read me another story, mommy. They're both in it together. And so sex becomes a whole different kind of thing. It's really the expression of love that's there. It's not another chore that the woman has to do.

To what extent is it important that a relationship have a kind of CEO and COO kind of, or like, you know, captain and first mate or like leader and someone who's sort of equal, but like there's a leader in the relationship. Is that something that you guys have seen is important in relationships? Yeah.

There are many different arrangements in terms of decision making and power in a relationship. And the important thing is it doesn't really matter whether she's the captain or he's the captain or nobody's the captain. They decide by consensus. As long as it feels fair to both people, as long as it feels just and fair, then any arrangement can work.

So there's no one better kind of arrangement in terms of his being the captain, her being the captain, nobody being the captain. It has to feel fair and just. That's the thing that matters the most. And have you got any tips for navigating? Like, for example, one thing I've heard a lot of friends who are in long-term marriages say that it's really useful to actually navigate

Sit down and actively divide up the chores to be like i'm always taking the trash out You're always done dealing with this. I'm always dealing dealing with that Do you guys have any any any tips on how to I guess navigate the logistics of a relationship in an effective way? Wait a minute Let's let's divide it down a little bit The logistics of a relationship. There's a whole lot of logistics, right? so, um

It really does help to sit down, kind of have a meeting, right, kind of a State of the Union meeting, and to talk about how you're going to divvy up the labor market.

the labor of taking care of the house, taking care of the kids, taking care of the yard, taking care of the in-laws, talking about entertaining and how much you want to entertain versus just have private time. And part of that, this is one of my favorite things to do, Ali, is to create what we call rituals of connection.

And rituals of connection are activities that you do together with your partner that are pre-designed, they're pre-planned, and they're agreed upon. So you co-design a ritual of connection.

And many of you are probably already doing some of those. So, for example, here are some rituals of connection. The way that you greet each other first thing in the morning when you wake up. The way that you greet each other if you're working, you know, apart and you reunite at the end of the day.

Do you have breakfast together every morning? Do you have dinners together? Do you typically go out on a date one night a week? Or do you go out for brunch every Sunday?

Do you, during the ski season, of course, you guys are in London, it's a little different, but during an active season, do you go skiing every weekend for such and such a number of months? Do you watch murder mysteries at dinner? And they have to be British. They're the best.

So John and I have this great ritual after dinner. We have what we call a cuddle couch, which is kind of a chaise lounge. It's kind of a chaise, you know, comfy lounge that's about wide enough for a person and a half. Yeah.

And so between the two of us, we fill it up really well. And we'll watch British murder mysteries in the evening. And cuddle. And cuddle. And, you know, we're squished together. Our dog often joins us, so he's in there too. And

And we'll watch rich people getting murdered, and it's very satisfying. That's a ritual of connection. That's a ritual of connection. Yeah. And rituals of connection can be big, too. They can be how our birthday is celebrated in our family.

How are the religious holidays celebrated in our family, right? If you have a Sabbath every weekend, how is that celebrated, you know, et cetera? How do you celebrate vacations? What kind of vacations do you go on? We have an annual honeymoon that we do. Right. And we rent the same room and the same bed and breakfast.

Once a year.

And we take a lot of time to really do that while we're having fun kayaking and hiking and eating out in really good restaurants and going to the farmer's market on Saturday and things like that. So that's one of our rituals of connection that we love.

Yeah, it's really fun. So when our daughter turned eight years old, she went away to camp for a couple of weeks and we decided we should go to camp too. And that's when it started. Excellent. That sounds amazing. One of the things that my partner and I started doing fairly early on in our relationship, it's been about 18 months now, we read a book called How to Not Die Alone by Logan Urie.

who we had on the podcast last year. - Logan is a good friend, actually. Yeah, she's-- - Oh, nice. Yeah, no, she's great. - She's wonderful. Yeah, we adore her. - And in the book, she talked about doing relationship reviews, including these questionnaires. And so almost from kind of day one, we've been doing every few weeks a relationship review.

And everyone I'm... all my friends I mentioned this to, like half of them say, "Oh my gosh, I need that in my life." And the other half say, "Wait, what? That's a bit weird. How can you possibly do a relationship review?" But it's been one of the most, I think, worthwhile parts about kind of growing together because we co-decided on what 10 questions we were going to use. We have a little Notion template that we've been filling in since for the last 18 months. And it's super nice just to give that... I mean, I've certainly found it super helpful

to make space in a what's an otherwise fairly busy life to be like hey you know how are you feeling what's something that i did that maybe made you feel bad that i didn't realize would make you feel bad and i've just it's been such a great kind of learning curve from from my end but also those little things that feel like they're not worth bringing up in the moment we always know that okay at some point in the next couple of weeks we're going to sit down and actively talk about stuff so

You know, if it doesn't need, if it's not a major thing that needs to be discussed right now, it can always be pushed to the review. Do you guys do anything like that? Is that something that you would recommend people do? Yeah, we totally do. We have, and we often say that our clients should do this, but we tell everybody to do this. It's called a State of the Union meeting.

So, you know, we have a different name for it. And the way that that is typically conducted is each person, the meeting begins with each person giving three to five appreciations for things the other person has done.

and saying thank you. And these are typically things that maybe haven't been thanked for earlier. So each person gives each other these appreciations. Then the middle of the meeting is a

bringing up anything that they need to solve, any decisions that need to be made, any past regrettable incidents that need to be processed the way we talked about earlier today. So that, you know, that's kind of the meaty part of...

the conversation. Needs can be brought up then too, you know, what the person really needs and so on. And then the meeting ends with the question that each person poses to the other, what is one way that I can help you feel more loved in the coming week? And that is just, you know, that really keeps relationships on track.

I'm taking copious notes. This is incredibly useful. Do you guys have, I guess, do you guys have a ritual around it? Do you like go out for dinner and then do it? Or is it like an ad hoc thing that happens? Is it like a weekly, monthly thing? Like what's the context around the State of the Union meeting? You know, everybody can create their own context, right? I mean, if you have six kids running around the house, you might want to go out. Yeah.

If you don't, you can do it at home on a Sunday morning. You can certainly go out to dinner. You can do it while you're taking a walk. I mean, that's really a nice way to have that kind of joining together and talking. So, you know, whatever you're comfortable with. It's similar to what we did in our book, Eight Dates.

where we created conversations with a few questions and preparation, thinking, you know, things to think about for each date, and then people discussing these deeper topics on each date. And we give suggestions for what that date could look like, given that particular topic for the week.

And of course, people have the freedom to do whatever they want to do. But it's really a lovely thing to do to talk about these deeper topics and to have a way to do that. Changing gears a little bit. What do you guys see as the function of marriage in a sort of modern, secular, liberal kind of environment?

That's a great one. Yeah. Well, are you talking about marriage versus a committed relationship where you're living together or just a long term? Yeah, I guess. Yeah, I guess kind of some people would say that the institution of marriage is outdated and we no longer need the government to step in and get involved, et cetera, et cetera. What's wrong with just being in a committed long term relationship where we're not married?

Yeah, you know, the research on this, and this is a new field that has emerged in the past 50 years called social epidemiology, is really looking at what the benefits are of a good relationship. It emerged out of asking questions, you know, what can you do to live longer? And the...

The initial questions thought, well, you probably just need to have a diet that doesn't have as much cholesterol and exercise. But when they actually did the research, it was started by Leonard Syme at Berkeley and his student, Lisa. It's okay. Yeah. Anyway, yeah.

I'm blocking on her last name. And what they found was that relationships were what really predicted longevity. And so close relationships were the most important thing.

very close friendships, your relationships with your children, and your love relationships. And if the relationships were high in quality, if people were really happy with the relationship and the marriage really made them happy, they would live 10 to 15 years longer. And not only would they live longer, but they would recover from illness quicker and they'd have fewer illnesses.

And their children would do better in life. So it turns out that if relationships have certain ingredients, they confer all of these wonderful things. You know, people become wealthier. They're happier in life. And it doesn't really matter if they're married or not. If there's commitment, if there's trust in the relationship,

And usually that is part of the wedding vows. So, you know, the institution of marriage is a way of kind of ensuring that these qualities are there in the relationship that are life-giving, health-giving, and really very healthy for our children and their development. So it's not really the institution of marriage. It's the quality of the relationship that makes the difference.

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It's available on iPhone and Android, and you can check it out by typing in Trading212 into your respective app store. So thank you so much, Trading212, for sponsoring this episode. When it comes to... And this is great because I'm asking all the questions that I want to know the answers to. When it comes to, let's say, before proposing to someone or before making the active commitment to be in a long-term relationship...

Is there a consensus on like how long you should date for or like when do you know that someone is right to get married to? There's absolutely no consensus. John and I, for example, we were a little older when we met, but John proposed in five months, which is, you know, relatively short. I've seen people who've proposed after a day, right?

But I had a database. That's true. I had dated 60 women in one summer, just kind of making it my purpose to find a partner. And Julie was number 61. And so she was such an outlier for me.

That I knew very quickly that I wanted to spend my life with her. You cutie. He's so cute. Number 61. Everything felt right. It was so easy to talk. Yeah, but is there something special about number 61? Is that my claim to fame? Number 61. You totally were an outlier compared to all the other women. And you should have heard about the other women. I mean, they were like.

Very interesting people. And so, yeah. One talked about murdering, you know, having fantasies of murdering people. Just like, oh, my God. So, yeah. So there is no time frame. I think the thing that's more important is looking at the qualities of the person and do they fit who you're looking for.

Um, not that anybody is going to be a perfect match. I mean, everybody has lots and lots and lots of different matches that are possible out there in the world. You know, we're seven and a half billion people. There's a lot of matches for you. Uh, but there's no one perfect person. Uh, but, uh,

Is this person kind? Are they respectful? Not only to you, but one of the things that I tell my single clients is look for how this person treats servers at a restaurant, for example, or the bus driver of the bus you're getting on. How do they treat people?

People of all walks of life. How do they even treat homeless people? Not just people at their status level, but people below their status level. Or their cat. So...

One of the things I loved about Julie was she had this cat named Sassy. And when I took Sassy off her favorite chair and put her on the ground, first time Julie cooked a meal for me in her apartment, we didn't know each other very well. The cat went right into the kitchen and complained to Julie. And I could hear the cat saying, who is this jerk who just took me off?

my favorite chair and put me on the ground. I don't like this guy. And Julie comforted the cat. I could tell this cat was very well treated. She was very kind to this cat. Oh, great. I love that cat. That was a great cat. Yep.

Yeah. So kind, caring, respectful, also reliable. Are they really reliable? Do they follow through with what they say they're going to do?

And one of the best questions, if it's somebody who's been in other relationships in the past or even other marriages, is to ask them, how come you broke up? And if they blame the breakup totally on the other person, you're in trouble. Forget it. Because they're not owning responsibility for their part in whatever went wrong. And that's a bad sign because they may do the same thing with you. Nice.

On a somewhat similar vein, and the answer to this might well be no, but is there any consensus on what sort of age gap is ideal if we look at the stats? Is there an age gap that's ideal or is that just a... Yeah. No, you know, the only statistic that I know like that, that actually is held up worldwide, is that it's a mistake to marry a woman before she's 20 years old.

So women, once they're 20 years old, their marriages are much more likely to be stable. That's interesting. That's a worldwide phenomenon. That's the only age thing I know of that has really held up in the research. Yeah. You know, I've seen clinically, I've seen probably a thousand couples or something over many, many years of treating people.

And I think I've seen every age variation there is. I've seen women who are 20 years older than the partner, the man.

if it's a heterosexual relationship. I've seen, you know, gay and lesbian relationships with big age gaps in every direction. Sometimes men are much, much older than women. As long as they can negotiate the different developmental needs they have in their particular age, you know. For example, if a

60-year-old fellow marries a 25-year-old woman. Well, that 25-year-old woman is probably very highly energetic, is wanting to go out, do stuff, you know, if she's a little more extroverted.

go to bars maybe or go out and dancing or go do bicycling on the weekend or whatever and you hope that there are some intersections some overlap between the interests of the older person and the interests of the younger person

So, that's, you know, it's more about that. It's also shared history. People, for example, in the United States who are over, let's say, 35, 40, something like that, all remember 9-11 when the trade towers in New York City were bombed. And we all had the experience of that. But a 20-year-old does not.

So, does that make a difference in how society is viewed or how dangerous the world feels? So, you know, those are all things that can be talked about and understood. You don't have to be identical. You shouldn't be, in fact. It's not going to work. It's too boring. But to be able to talk about those differences, and there will be some in every relationship, is what's most important.

Nice. So Julie, you've got a background as a relationship therapist, from my understanding. What is the context in which you would recommend a couple or an individual see a relationships therapist or a relationships coach? Well, first of all, let's see.

I would suggest, first of all, that people who are having conflicts that never get resolved and they end up trying to sweep them under the rug or those conflicts blow up into huge battles and there never is any progress, that is a couple that needs to see somebody.

If there's been an affair, that needs help oftentimes. Sometimes if there's been a terrible tragedy, like a child has been lost, you know, something like that, people really need, you know, a lot of support sometimes to navigate that and to have the relationship be supportive of each person through that process.

Sometimes people will feel very, very emotionally distant from each other. They've grown apart, you know, not through intention. It's just happened, you know, maybe through their career development or something. And they don't really know who their partner is anymore. That's a good time to go seek help.

Yeah, in fact, in the California Divorce Mediation Project, a very large project looking at divorce by two researchers, Yeezy and Kelly were the two people who did that research, and

they found that people drifting apart was the major reason for divorce. It wasn't affairs. It wasn't the kind of thing you think conflict about money would be the major thing. It's that they drifted apart. And so if you find yourself being lonely in the relationship, that's an excellent marker that you need a therapist to help you. Yeah, perfect. That's right. Do you think there's any value in...

preemptive relationship therapy, almost like getting a personal trainer even before you're out of shape, just to keep things in shape. Is that something that you guys have seen?

Yeah, sure. You know, premarital counseling, that's what you're talking about. Or pre-commitment counseling, sure. I mean, religious institutions have been doing that, you know, for decades, if not centuries. So, absolutely, that's—preemptive is a great word. Yes, absolutely.

People do come in to get help and look for tools to have on board, to have skills on board. Because inevitably, over time, if they stay together, there's going to be difficult situations. That's what life throws us, right? So we want to be able to navigate those carefully and gently and compassionately. Right.

and not have those turn into regrettable incidents.

Nice. I'd love to talk a little bit about the new book, The Love Prescription, Seven Days to More Intimacy, Connection and Joy. I've started reading that on my Kindle and I've got the physical copy arriving in the next couple of days. But it's interesting because one of the claims in the book, or at least in the blurb, is that there is a formula for a good relationship. And almost the vibe that I got was that, hey, if you follow the formula and just do these seven things across these seven days or however long it takes, you're going to get a good relationship.

you will just almost magically improve the quality of your relationship. So I wonder if you can just kind of riff on that a little bit. Like what is this formula for love? Sure. So one of the things is being nice to one another. So, you know, giving your partner compliments, you know,

Catching your partner doing something right and communicating that, communicating respect and affection in words, letting your partner know how attractive they are to you and how irresistible they seem at times. You know, that kind of positivity is very, very critical. Another one is...

Turning toward turns out to be a very powerful thing in a relationship. So, you know, in our apartment lab where we saw 130 newlywed couples and followed them for six years,

We discovered that a lot of time when they're just kind of hanging out in this apartment lab, one person will try to get the other person's attention or share something humorous or, you know, some interesting story that they've heard or are reading about. And then they try to connect. They make a bid for connection. And then the cameras in the lab always swung to the other person to see the response of

And there were one of three responses, turning toward, which was really acknowledging the connection. One person might say, oh, what a beautiful boat that is going by. And if the other person said, yeah, that was turning toward. If they didn't respond at all, that was turning away. Or if they responded irritably, will you be quiet? I'm trying to read. That was turning against.

So when we found couples, the 17 couples who divorced one another after six years after the wedding, when we look back six years earlier, they had turned toward these bids only 33% of the time. Whereas the couples who were still together six years earlier had turned toward the bids 86% of the time.

You know, huge difference. And we also discovered that turning toward is like an emotional bank account that you build. When you really connect with your partner, when your partner wants to connect with you, then during conflict, you have more of a sense of humor.

about yourself and about one another. You can laugh together and you can be affectionate even when you disagree and it reduces physiological arousal. So turning toward is another one that's very, very powerful. And when people become aware of that as a tool of connecting, then the relationship improves quite dramatically. Right. So in this book, what we're doing is each day...

We're giving couples a little thing to do, a little 10-minute thing to do every single day. Like one day we'll be giving compliments, you know, really expressing fondness and admiration. A second day will be look for what your partner is doing right.

And not just wrong, right. And point it out and say thank you to your partner. You know, third is listening, you know, talking about your needs with one another. What do you need? And we emphasize you should bring up your needs as a positive need rather than a negative need. And what that means is that you ask for what you do want.

not what you don't like or you resent. Don't bring that up because that's going to sound like criticism. Instead, flip it on its head and say, I would love it if you clean the dishes three times a week. That would be such a big help to me.

That's a positive. So people present, you know, on I forget which day, they talk about one need they have with their partner that can allow their partner to shine for them. It's not a criticism. It's the opposite, right? Another one is honoring each other's dreams. So talk about what

maybe deeply held dream you have for something you want to do, something you want to experience, something you want to feel, whatever it is, share that with your partner and really listen to what your partner says about that question too.

So what we hope to see if people practice this every day for seven days is that from before they started it to the end of the week, they'll see a little bit of change. Maybe a little something feels different. And they can talk about which one of those little prescriptions really made a difference for them.

Now, it doesn't mean everything gets fixed in seven days and then you can go back to being whoever you were before. No. It's instead that you're learning how to do something a little different that deepens the friendship, deepens emotional intimacy, which of course opens up to you know what, you know, more sexual intimacy, and helps you when you have to talk about conflict.

Continue those practices, especially the ones you found the best for you and your partner. And you'll see over time, you know, the relationship is doing this over time. Big change. Fantastic. And we'll put links down in the video description and the show notes wherever people are listening or watching to this, to the new book.

I'd love to ask, so I don't have kids yet. Anything that couples, and I guess I'm asking the question selfishly, anything that people should keep in mind before having kids? Is there stuff like ducks that you need to line up before making that big plunge? Is there like a right time? Any tips on that front?

Well, first of all, there's never a right time to have kids. You know, I mean, in the sense that there's always something going on in your life, right? You're doing work and you're doing a career or, you know, you want to go do an adventure or you want to go travel, you know, whatever. So you decide to have kids when you really, really want kids and you prepare yourself for

by talking a lot about really important questions. For example, how should we discipline our kid? Do we use corporal punishment or not? That's a big one. Or should we raise our kid within a particular religious institution or not?

If our kid wants to change genders or be transsexual, will we support that or not as our kid gets older?

How about who's going to take the sleep shift? Who's going to do nights? Which is really important. How will we handle nights? How will we handle nights, right? And lining up a support system is really a good idea. Having friends who have already had kids, maybe young kids,

And you can go to them and say, oh, my God, I haven't slept in like 12 nights straight. I'm going out of my mind. How did you survive? And they can help support you, you know, through the process. Let me provide a little different answer. So the first book that Julie and I wrote together was called And Baby Makes Three.

And it was based on that newlywed study that we did. As many of the couples became pregnant and had their first child together, we followed them over time. We studied the babies and their development. And what we discovered was that, at least in the United States, this seems to be true, two-thirds of couples have this big drop in relationship happiness in the first three years of their baby's life, their first baby's life.

And one-third don't. So Julie and I studied the difference between the one-third and the two-thirds group. And we designed a workshop called Bringing Baby Home.

which was one that we wished we had when we had our baby. Because we brought the baby home and Julie said, what do we do now? And I said, well, we gave it to the videotape at the hospital. So we put it in and it had nothing about babies. It was all about all the services the hospital offered. So we actually developed that idea.

you know, videotape and manual that we wished we had when we first brought our baby home. And in that workshop, that bringing baby home workshop, in just 10 hours, 80% of couples avoid that drop in relationship happiness.

Just by looking at things like how do we play with babies? How important are fathers in the development of kids? And how should they be involved? And how do we maintain intimacy, sexual intimacy, emotional intimacy? How do we make decisions better? How do we deal with conflict better? And just 10 hours.

Everything changed for these couples. It's our biggest effect that we've ever had in programmatic research. So you really want to do this workshop before you have a baby. And it's online, actually. It can be streamed online at the Gottman Institute. Right.

Fantastic. We'll put a link to that down below as well. And I'll definitely be checking that out when the time is right. Guys, I just wanted to end by a bit of a random question. You guys have written a bunch of books. What does your writing and I guess what does your kind of writing process look like?

And I ask because I'm kind of in the midst of editing for my first book and I want to do this writing thing as like a long-term gig. And you guys have absolutely done the writing thing as a long-term gig. So what does the process look like and do you have any tips for new and aspiring writers? Well, typically, John will write a rough draft.

chapter by chapter, and then he'll give it to me. I'll probably reorganize it, rewrite sections of it, edit it into a second draft, give it back to him. He usually rubber stamps it, or he may fill in a little bit of things that I've missed, and that's it.

We're off and running. Except that we have to do the research first. Yeah, sure. So, you know, it's important to go to the library first.

and read, you know, what the research is if you haven't done the research yourself. So, for example, one of my favorite books is Come As You Are. Emily Nagoski wrote that book about how to maintain a great sexual relationship. And she went to the library. She actually did her research.

on what makes relationships work sexually. And so that's a very, very important part of it. Quite often people write books just on the basis of their own intuition and their own experience. And quite often they come up with bad advice. I myself...

as a source of hypotheses, I'm completely unreliable. I've kept track of my ideas and my hypotheses are wrong 60% of the time. So if I didn't do the research, I think I was right 100% of the time. But mostly I'm wrong about what I think, how the reality should be. So do the research. That's the important thing, I think.

And then write, write for people who really enjoy reading it. Nice guys. Thank you so much. This has been absolutely wonderful. Uh, where can people go to learn more about the work that you do and, um, yeah, your, your workshops and things. Uh, they can go to www.gottman.com and everything is right there. Amazing. And we'll put links to all of that stuff as well. The Gottman Institute, everything will be linked down below.

Ali, they can also go to the App Store and type in Gottman card decks and download a free app that they can have on their phones with all kinds of card decks for improving sexual relationship, for helping them talk about what they need and how they feel. And all of that is downloadable for free. Mm-hmm.

Fantastic. I didn't know that those existed, but I will. I'm just checking it out in the app store now. Gottman card decks for the iPad. Oh, so good. We'll be installing that right now. So yeah, guys, thank you so much. This has been wonderful. Thanks for giving us your time and your expertise. And thanks again for the amazing work you've done over the several decades. I know I've benefited from your work and there are so many of my friends who have read your stuff and just...

have cited it to death in conversations. So thank you so much for that. And have a great day. Thank you so much, Ali. And also we want to wish you well in your relationship. Right. Thank you. We're on a good road here. Yeah. Take good care. We're checking out all of the various books that you've got as the time, as the time comes. Sounds good. Thank you so much.

All right, so that's it for this week's episode of Deep Dive. Thank you so much for watching or listening. All the links and resources that we mentioned in the podcast are going to be linked down in the video description or in the show notes, depending on where you're watching or listening to this. If you're listening to this on a podcast platform, then do please leave us a review on the iTunes store. It really helps other people discover the podcast. Or if you're watching this in full HD or 4K on YouTube, then you can leave a comment down below and ask any questions or any insights or any thoughts about the episode. That would be awesome. And if you enjoyed this episode, you might like to check out this episode here as well, which links in with some of the stuff that we talked about in the episode.

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