Lessons I’m Taking Into 2022 - Season 1 Roundup
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- Hey friends, welcome back to Deep Dive. So it is the end of season one. It's the first time officially that we're doing a podcast. And in this episode, we're doing a little bit of a roundup of some of my favorite/most inspiring moments from various guests of season one. Over the last couple of months, I have interviewed/had conversations with 12 different people on the podcast.

And we're already well underway into recording some of the interviews for season two as well, which is kind of fun. And it's just been super nice to have the privilege to speak to these people, mostly in real life, because in the past I've done remote interviews, but it's just the vibes are so much better in real life. That's been really awesome. And to hear the response that you guys have had to some of the episodes has been really cool as well. So please do keep the nice comments coming on YouTube and on Twitter, and especially if you can leave a review on Apple Podcasts. I think probably the biggest lesson that I've learned from the people that I've interviewed

is about embracing uncertainty. I'm going through a bit of like an uncertainty-ish time in my life right now where I've just quit being a doctor and I'm now trying to figure out what the hell do I do with my life.

And the good thing from basically everyone that I've spoken to on the podcast is that no one really knows what they're doing. They're all kind of making it up as they go along. And one thing leads to another, leads to another. And what a lot of people have said is just that the idea of having a plan and sticking to it is kind of a bit of a myth, especially in this world as things change so much. And so that's really been one of my key takeaways, just to be more embracing of uncertainty and more like, you know,

I'll try and do my best with what's going on. I will try and enjoy the journey as much as possible rather than being fixated on the destination. And...

just kind of see how things go and just not be overly beating up of myself if things don't follow a prescribed plan that I maybe made a few months ago or a few years ago. Anyway, we're now going to include segments from six of the guests that we've had on the podcast so far. We've got Ben Francis, Chrissy Cheller, Chris Williamson, Anjana Jade, Mr. Who's the Boss, and Dr. Grace Lorden. And these are some of the clips that I found most inspiring from season one. So I hope you enjoy them. You start off as like a band of brothers, like a handful of people in a shed. A radiator is a game-changing experience.

a game-changing addition to the business. And now GameShark is a billion-plus dollar company. You're the new CEO of it. How many employees do you have? We're just over 700. 700. And you sell all over the world with offices all around the world.

That's going to feel pretty wild. It's cool. Honestly, I still walk into the HQ. So we've got this gorgeous HQ, and there's the big logo on the front. Over the road, we've got our lifting club. We've got a gym, manufacturing facility, studios.

I do walk in and like I do still get goosebumps because it's such an amazing place and there's a buzz like you've got to visit because as soon as you walk in the door there's a buzz there and everyone's lovely, everyone's pulling in the same direction, everyone really understands why we do what we do, everyone understands the area that they sort of fit in with that sort of wider plan. It's such a lovely place to be. So it's interesting you say that like everyone's pulling in the same direction because I think I feel like

This is an issue we're having as we expanded from three people to 12 people, whereby I'm now starting to do things like defining our vision and where do we want to be in X number of years and KPIs and goals and all this stuff that in the past I would have thought this is all just corporate bullshit. Like who cares about any of that? Presumably like...

What was your journey through kind of being more businessy about it? - So what you're going through, yeah, so we did that. I used to hate the word corporate. And you're going through, reading between the lines, what I actually think is the most difficult change, and I think this is one of the most difficult things for any entrepreneurial business person. And by the way, not even owning your own business, if you're running or working in a great business, it's so difficult to sort of distribute that control.

I think those that can do that, then after that, it's not plain sailing, but if you've then done that, it's like a muscle memory, right? If you continue to do that, I think scaling becomes so much easier. So my sort of breakdown, I sort of break it down into three areas. And I think every great business person needs to reinvent themselves over and over again. So you can't become too like tied in or emotionally attached to sort of, I'm going to say who you are in many respects. So at the start, I found that,

I had a great creative vision. I had a great idea of where I wanted us to be. And I felt like I dragged the business to where I wanted us to be. And that sounds a bit sort of direct, but, you know, it could be having a great creative vision. It could be great at knowing products. It could be great at whatever it is. But you, because you tend to be a one man band or there's not many people involved, you just do what the hell you want when you want. And it's very instinctive.

Now, you'll then get to a stage where you've got people around you. It might be five people, it might be 10 people, it might be 30 people. And an instinctive way of running things is still great, but you can't just do things on a whim because you fancy it. You have to then learn to work in a team. And I don't mean, when I say in a team, I mean you are part of the team and anyone that's managed a team knows that

that the team doesn't work for you, you work for them. And you need to make sure that you're really understanding how to work with each different type of person. So some people will love to be organized and they will love lots of different catch-ups. And some people will be highly creative. Some people will be highly logical. Some people you'll have to spend six weeks trying to buy them into a new idea. Some people you'll have to spend six seconds. And it's about learning how to work with all these different people. So you've gone from dragging the business to where you wanted it to be, learning to work with new people,

And then that's, it sounds like to a degree what you're going through slash the next stage, which is like, okay, you know how to work with people. How do we galvanize them around a vision or a mission? How do we make them understand where they fit in with that? How do we make them understand that, you know, the team that we're working with touch wood is greater than the sum of its parts and really understanding how to articulate yourself and your vision and essentially learning how to inspire people. And I think that's, again, it's very tough and, and,

I hear people a lot of the time saying like, oh, you know, one facet of their personality. That's just me. What am I like? I'm a bit unorganized. Well,

when you're at that level, there's no excuse for being unorganized. Like, yes, I am unorganized, but you do something about it. You either fix it yourself or you build the team in a way that negates that weakness. Does that make sense? I think it gets a bit more serious at that point. And you have to learn new skills. And to be honest, that's why I love the job so much and feel like I've got the best job in the world because you're constantly learning new things and constantly reinventing yourself. Let's say someone's watching this and they're thinking they're,

They want to get started being an entrepreneur. Maybe they're sort of late teens, early 20s, haven't really started anything yet, but really inspired by you and your journey. Any kind of advice you'd give? Yeah, I mean, it's fairly standard, right? You have to do what you love because otherwise you'll end up giving up. I'm a firm believer now that there's no niche too small, especially with the internet being so vast.

I always think and it sounds stupid saying it now if I'd have said as a kid I want to be a professional gamer growing up. Yeah, my mom would have been like you're nuts Whereas now it's like a legitimate sport career and everything in between like even I guess with yourself It would have been so difficult for you to articulate what you do now as a kid. Yeah, I just think there's no niche too small So I think whatever it is double down on it and just genuinely give it a go like

Gymshark was the seventh business website product that I've made and the other six failed miserably. Now, unfortunately, that's not a sexy story so no one talks about the failed apps, the failed websites. They only talk about the one that did well and it's a consistent theme on everyone else that's successful that I've met. They've failed miserably so many times and they've been

endlessly optimistic about it. And they've just gone again and again and again. In the book, I think it's one of the early chapters. You talk about finding your why and you reference Simon Sinek's book, Start With Why. I wonder when it comes to sort of new entrepreneurs or people starting out in their entrepreneurship or being a creator, to what extent do you think it's important to start with

to start with that mission or purpose? Cause it's very important. It's so important. It's so important. If you are starting a brand, if you want to start a brand, like if you don't know your why, just don't do it. Like, I can't stress that enough. If you are starting a brand to make money, Oh, like I don't know. Okay. No, you should never start a brand to make money.

If your core ideology is profit, if your core value is we aim to make

100 million in the first five years if that's your number one core value i'm not saying it shouldn't be a core value i'm saying if that's your number one core value you're going to plummet because every decision you make will be profit led not mission led there's a complete difference so you need your why you need to know why you want to start why you want to start what is the reason and it's a very big question to ask yourself because you'll start understanding

That it's deeper than what you first perceived. When women come to me and go, I really want to lose 10 pounds. I go, why? Yeah. Why do, why tell me why? Cause I really want to know why. Oh, cause I know I'll look better. Okay. But why does that matter? I know I'll feel better. Okay. But why? But why? But why? Truth is,

That bride that wants to lose 10 pounds for her wedding day, it's not that she wants to lose 10 pounds, it's that she wants to feel confident in her wedding day. So actually, it's not about the pounds she loses, it's the effort she's putting in daily

to feel confident on her wedding day. There's a complete difference. So that why is gonna keep her driven longer than constantly stepping on the scales and seeing those numbers not shift. - Yeah, I think it's similar on the, let's say if someone wants to start a YouTube channel, if you do it for the sake of wanting to make money from it, it's really hard to keep that motivation going to sustain that. If you do it for the sake of chasing views, it's really hard to keep going. But if you do it for like-- - You're gonna get really sad.

You're going to get really upset. You're going to think you're not good enough. You're going to cross compare. You're going to just never be satisfied. I've been there. Like I can genuinely speak from experience and you're going to completely and truly fuck your mind up. So one thing, one thing I was, I was intrigued about sort of your, one of your sort of life philosophies, that sounds like a grandiose way of putting it, but one of your life philosophies is that you don't see, you seem not, you seem to not care about goals.

And that really resonates with me because I also think goals are a bit overrated and it's more about the journey rather than about the destination. And that's something I've been, I've been like spieling on my YouTube channel for the last like four years. And then I read that in the book, you said something along that effect as well, that like, you know, it's, it's, it's less about the destination. It's not about like the motivation. It's not about the goal. Yeah. Elaborate on that. Yeah. Motivation is so overrated. Like. Right.

Why? Oh, she's just like jarring and just like shut up. Like I hate her. She comes one day, she leaves another day. She's there in a moment and then I'm like, where is she gone? And then it's just like, I can't be bothered with it. And I can't express enough how you need to stop relying on motivation and start relying more on building consistency and discipline in your day-to-day life.

motivation is not something that you can sustain for the rest of your life because there's going to be moments where you don't want to get out of bed. There's going to be moments where you want to eat your favorite pizza and watch Netflix and skip the gym. Totally fine. There's going to be moments where you actually don't want to come to work, even though it's your biggest passion because you're tired, you're drained, you're exhausted mentally and physically. But consistency is what makes you go, I'm going to go to the gym and

But I'm going to come back home also and eat my pizza and watch Netflix with my partner. I'm going to go to work, but only for two hours. You know, it's, it's, that's what consistency is to me. Okay. Because it's sort of like showing up. Showing up. Yeah. Because motivation to me is either or. Okay. Yeah. I'm either motivated to go for that five carat. Oh, I don't go at all. Yes. Okay. Consistency to me is if I don't want to do it one day, I'll go for a little bit. Okay. I'll give it a go. Yeah. Okay.

If I don't want to show up, fine, I'll take my meetings from home. It's more flexible. It's more understanding. And I see these components as actual humans. That sounds really weird, but I see motivation as like this sassy diva. She sometimes wants to go on stage and give her best show, but sometimes she just wants to tell her team to go away and she's not going on stage. Then I see consistency as like this really like humble person

genuine person that wants to help you. And I think you should, people need to start perceiving certain elements as personas because it will make you kind of distinguish which one you want to aim for more, which one you want to build a relationship with more. Interesting. Okay. So it's,

So you wake up in the morning, your alarm goes off at half past five and you're thinking, oh, I'm feeling a bit tired today. What do you tell yourself? This was the other day for me, actually. My alarm went off at half five, ironically. And then I was like, it's cold. It's dark. I'm in England. Like it's too cold now. It's like nearly November. And I was like, I'm so tired. I don't want to go to the gym. And then I said to myself, right, listen, Chrissy, go to the gym today.

If you'd feel like this tomorrow, give it a miss. That's what I said to myself. Like, and I did today. I didn't go to the gym. I didn't go to the gym. I was still so tired. I gave myself an extra two hours sleep instead. And that's what I needed. Yeah. But if I'm doing that every day, that's not good. Here's a question for you, man. Do you think that people love you for what you do or for who you are? I've been, so over the last few months, I really thought it was for what I do, especially when it came to friend friendship and stuff.

I thought that I just didn't quite... I thought it was the things that I was doing that were the reasons why people wanted to be friends with me. And it was surprising when I mentioned this to a few friends and they were like, no, you actually don't need to do any... Because if I think about...

the people I'm friends with, I'm not friends with them for what they do. I'm friends with them for who they are. And it took other people pointing out to me that, well, that's how other people feel about you for me to think, oh my God. And that was quite like a profound realization for me and made me realize that I can just sort of be myself. But before I'd been like, be yourself, it's all just BS because like choose yourself and all that kind of stuff. I got another question. Yeah. Do you love yourself for who you are or for what you do? Oh, good question. I think I love myself for what I do. Yeah. So here's the problem, right? Yeah.

We want the world to love us for who we are, not for what we do. We don't want people to love our achievements. We want to feel like we're worth something ourselves. However, we love ourselves for what we do, not who we are. So we're asking the world to do something that we don't do ourselves. I want you to love me for who I am, not what I do. Meanwhile, I'm gonna love myself for what I do, not who I am. Because I feel like when I achieved something that I feel like I'm worth something more to myself. When I hit that next subscriber count, when I get that...

gold plaque, diamond plaque when I hit a new best number of plays, when I get more people on my academy, when I put more people into my club night, when I sleep with a more popular girl, when I hit a new number of followers on Instagram. All of these different metrics are things that are hiding the fact that we don't want to give ourselves self-love for what it is that we, who we genuinely are. What do you mean by love yourself? Feel comfortable and feel like you are sufficient, independent of how you perform day to day in the world.

The fact that you stripped of all of your achievements, YouTube channels gone, podcasts gone, degrees are gone, all of that stuff. Are you isolated and stripped bare still worth something to the world? And do you feel like people would still love you and still care about you? That's a good question.

It's a difficult one. It's a very difficult one. So I got that realization from Aubrey Marcus. Anyone that's resonating with this, I'll give you the link for this episode with Aubrey. He's just sold Onnit to Unilever for a huge undisclosed number, like hundreds of millions of dollars, right? The link will be in the show notes below. He said he'd bolstered his entire life with sex and money. So he'd spent his entire life chasing women and trying to earn it.

He's just sold his company for hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars and he's just got married. What's left for him? All of the things that he used to be chasing now, he's completed them and he had an existential crisis because he said all of these things that I thought would fulfill me, I've now done it. So who am I? I'd wrapped up so much of my self-worth in the fact that I was chasing this dream dragon of a woman and of a figure in my bank account. And now it's got to the stage where actually who am I without all of that?

or who am I once all of that's been completed? And this comes back to what happened when I first started a business. And again, this is another element for young business people. If you attach your sense of self-worth to the success of the business, you are on a path toward misery. The reason is that...

You don't get to control the fucking market, right? The market will do what the market will do and it does not give one single shit about you. It doesn't care. So why would you say that your self-worth is based on trends in the market? You're literally externalizing your sense of well-being to other people. That's the same as people that leave notifications on their phone.

It's exactly the same. You're allowing the entire world, anybody on the planet to intrude on your day whenever they want. This is the same with your business. You're allowing the response of the market to determine your self-worth every time that you put a product out or run an event or release a YouTube video. If you feel crap when your YouTube video underperforms but feel amazing when your YouTube video overperforms, that's fine. That's realistic. You care about performing well. But if you genuinely feel like you are worth more

or worth less, that's a different step. You've crossed a line there. And this is something that I still fight with all the time. I still struggle with it. This is me understanding the path, but not having completed the path. So you're on this kind of 12 to 18 month journey of self-discovery. And you said that one of the things that helped is asking yourself,

is this thing that I'm doing consistent with the person that I want to be? What were some other things that you figured out about yourself along that path? Not telling the truth was a huge one. People would ask me my opinion on something and I would tell them what I thought they wanted to hear, not what I genuinely believed because I presumed that that would make them like me because I just wanted to be liked. And this was funded or fueled by being a club promoter, which is very transient and transactional. And there is a degree of performative performance

on the front door of a club night. If someone says, all right, mate, how are you? And you go, actually, man, my dog just died and blah, blah, blah. They're like, no, I just wanted you to say yes and give me a stamp and let me in. So there is, that was reinforced by work. Some of the other things were mostly to do with opening up and being vulnerable because I was in a hyper-masculine, very cool guy world. And it wasn't, how would you say, conducive to...

Having a bad day and opening up to someone about it. It's another challenge as well for anyone That's a business owner or at the top of the tree that's listening You can feel like because you are the head of your business that showing any form of weakness shows a weakness in the business that if you underperform or you have a bad day that the people who look up to you your subordinates and your employees within the business and

will see you as less, will see you as unworthy of leading them because whose leader would spend a couple of days in bed because he's feeling down about whatever might have occurred? Another thing that I realized was working so hard that you have a miniature breakdown, which for me manifested as being in bed for a couple of days and I just couldn't be bothered to get out. And it felt like depression, but I think it was just like,

smaller key breakdowns. It always happened around Freshers Week. So one month of constant build up, constant build up. And this is when I'd stop partying so much as well. Releasing event after event after event, all on social media, then going and working on the night, four or five hours sleep, then get up the next day, go to the office, make sure that everything was sorted, run another event, fill it, cash the tills, go home, do the next thing. Oh, is this working? This DJ's cancelled, blah, blah, blah. Just constant intensity.

Start of October every single year. I would always spend a couple of days in bed. I'm like, why? Why is it that I always end up feeling a little bit sort of shitty after this because Going so hard that you end up snapping is not a sustainable work protocol just doesn't you can't keep doing that and expect to get consistent results and Punishing yourself because you don't have the tolerance. It's like having eyes that are bigger than your stomach and

It's like having an appetite for work which is bigger than your capacity for work. And this is something in a productivity world, look, I'll get more. I'll just get more done. That is a route toward disaster. For Chris Sparks says, in order to pick something up, you have to put something down. And the presumption is, if I want to be more productive, I will just down-regulate my sleep or up-regulate my efficiency until I fit this new thing in. Yeah.

you're already working close to your maximum capacity because if you weren't you would be doing more most people that are driven type a personalities are already working close to their capacity and then when you because you see all of your own inefficiencies right you think yeah but i spent 30 minutes today on youtube so if i add this new thing in i'll just get rid of that 30 minutes today it's like no the 30 minutes a day on youtube is there because you need a fucking break from all the work you're doing

That's going to stay. When you add this in, the place it's going to come off of is going to be optional things that really matter, like spending time with friends and family, like chilling out on a weekend, like getting more sleep. That's what's going to really, really sting. So those are some of the realizations. Work less, open up more, be truthful, realize that you have curiosities and intellectual desires and stuff that maybe don't align with the person that you thought you were. Because you've talked in a few videos about like a manifestation and stuff. Like what...

what is so i've read the secrets uh i haven't read the secret okay cool and everyone everyone i've i've heard everyone i've i've heard speak about the secret does it in very like disparaging terms that like all this all this manifestation stuff is all like bs um but you like talk about it sincerely yeah or it seems to be like what is manifestation to you and how does it manifest in your life as it were um okay so to me it's kind of common sense okay

In a way, if you want something, you're going to have to say it out loud. You're going to have to take actions towards it. And you're also going to probably need a bit of luck because that's how life works. And that's kind of common sense. You know, like if you want a certain job, if you want to be a doctor, you first got to decide that that's something you really want. You've got to be very specific. Say, okay, I probably in the next five years, I'm going to have to apply for med school. I'm probably going to want to go to maybe this university or

then you can say it out loud, you can write it down, it becomes kind of a clearer thought. And then you have to use, wait, let me say that again. Just through, yeah, like putting it down on paper, you're already thinking about actions of how you're gonna go towards that, where that's like working harder for certain grades. And then the element of luck

that I guess the law of attraction comes into, you know, you can call it synchronicity, you can call it luck, you can call it the universe, you can call it whatever you want to, but there's always an element of that. So the law of attraction is that to me. It's you decide something and you get really clear on what it is you want. And then you can also assist that thing with visualizations. Like the more you can picture yourself having that thing, the more likely you are to have it just because you're going to shape your actions towards also getting it.

So what would the visualization thing look like? Yeah. So I think this falls into a realm of meditation. For example, like closing your eyes. I think about this with an exam. Like the night before an exam, if you close your eyes and you picture yourself in the exam hall, most people, first thing you think of is stress. You know, you're like flicking through the paper. You've got no time and you're kind of manifesting that version of you being stressed without you doing anything about it.

So, in order for you to do the opposite, you'd have to visualize yourself being there, being calm, being rational, being focused and like, you know, feeling quite confident kind of fake it till you make it. And the more that you picture that, imagine yourself in it, then the more likely you are to borrow from that visualization and naturally do it. So, yeah, it's kind of just imagining the best case scenario, but that makes you more likely to also do that scenario. Yeah.

Okay. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. Um, I feel like I sometimes accidentally do this without realizing I'm doing this. Um, there was this guided meditation thing I did the other day, uh,

which was sort of about imagining your life some years in the future. What does your house look like? What does the family look like? What are you spending your time doing? And before doing it, I was like, oh, this is going to be some stupid meditation thing. And then I did it. It was like 20 minutes. And I was like, oh, wow. I've just never spent any time thinking what could my life look like in the future.

And I had like a very specific sort of vision of what like my future house might look like. And, you know, it was like, oh, you know, in this vision, like, you know, the wife is tucking the two kids into bed. There's like a third one on the way. We've got a little fireplace. I've got like my little desk in the corner that has like an iMac on it or whatever. It's like a guitar. I've been playing the guitar. It's like a dog. And it's like, oh, this is kind of nice. And since doing that, like last week,

I have been thinking back to that and thinking, oh, I wonder what sort of dog I want. It's just like just random. I very rarely think what sort of dog do I want in the future. But the fact that I did that visualization thing is now like a thing where I feel like, oh, yeah, I'm definitely going to get a dog in the future. It's obviously going to happen. Yeah, that's so cool. And so, I don't know, I feel like I want to do more in the way of like this sort of vision boarding type stuff.

That's awesome. I haven't really got around to doing it. Love that, yeah. That's basically what the law of attraction is, or at least the way I think about it. It's just getting clear on your vision for your life, which we don't do enough. And I don't, I'm not clear on that. But as soon as, you know, you start to have an idea, it does sort of work its way into your mind more and then you're more likely to make it happen. Would you be open to sharing some of the things in your vision board? Or is it like a private thing? It's kind of private because I don't know. Like if this is actually what I want. No, fair enough.

Have you found the manifesting stuff helping another aspect of life as well?

Like in, yeah, I think in terms of confidence. Oh, okay. As in like you imagine yourself as being more confident. Exactly. You are more confident. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Right? Like again, fake it till you make it. Yeah. Okay. Or even for example, with the book, like when I was writing this book, when I had to go down and sit down and, you know, it was dreading the writing process, visualizing myself as someone who had written the book, who had finished it and

and was receiving a nice review from someone about how it helped them, but not in like a stressful way, just like, oh, you know, that was, this was clearly helpful to them. Things like that, you know, it just, it helps you then find that motivation to sit down and write. Okay. That's very interesting.

And do you do this like actively? Do you have like a slot in your calendar for like manifesting time? How does it work within your life? Because I have a solid routine of meditation, some of those meditations I choose to do on that day could be in the realm of manifestation. Okay. You type in manifestation meditation on YouTube and someone will give you a guided tour. Exactly. Oh, okay. Yeah. So I guess that must have been that thing that I did the other day, which is just like someone talking to you like...

Close your eyes, imagine yourself five years from now. Think about the sounds, think about the feelings, that kind of stuff. And you can just imagine if you did that meditation every day, like every day you'd sort of add to that vision, right? Oh yeah, yeah, definitely. You're like, oh, I have a dog and like, oh, I'm starting to see like a poodle, you know? Like, would I like a poodle? The next day you do the meditation, you're like, actually no, it's like golden retriever, yeah. Okay, that's interesting. Because I guess in my head, meditation is like you sit there doing nothing for...

I think most people think that. There's so many different types. Visualizations, meditations. There are like breathing frameworks. Just being present and hearing everything around you. Engaging with your senses. There's loads. And you don't need to... I guess, again, when it comes to meditation, I think I overthink it. And like, I need to find the perfect path. Whereas it sounds like what you're doing is just like type in some random meditation on YouTube depending on what you're feeling and just go for it. Exactly. And that's like obviously...

Yeah, because I know that the practice of meditation generally is good. It doesn't really matter what it is. Like just closing my eyes and like forcing myself to breathe for like five to ten minutes

So it's, I'm showing up, like I'm doing the work, you know, it doesn't need to be like the perfect meditation every day. And if I like it, I can do it again. I don't look at my metrics at all. So I would love to learn from you about like, what can I be doing? How much time do you spend in the YouTube analytics? I look at it for every single video that I post. So two days after it's gone live, I'll kind of, I'll spend a good half an hour just going through it, being like, what countries did this hit?

How long did those people stay on for? When did the majority drop off? Was there a significant spike or a significant dip? Did certain parts make people go back? Things like that.

Because you can see all of it. It's like why wouldn't you? Well, you don't but I think you should yeah, I really think I should as well like yeah So I found things like for example, if I ask people to subscribe really early in the video it was detrimental because you'd get a drop of like 20% of viewers potentially but

They wouldn't be subscribing. They'd just be irritated by the fact you've asked them to subscribe without showing them why. Because at the start of a video in the first like 15 seconds, people are very, very easy to lose. It's at that point that they decide whether they're going to, you know, full screen you and kind of invest in this video or whether they're going to, you know, click on one of the 30 that are kind of grabbing their attention from the side. How should I start?

If you were like kind of my YouTube mentor or whatever, how would you advise me to start looking at retention graphs and analytics a bit more? What's like a good starting point? I would look for troughs. So look at kind of points where you've got viewers that are stable and then when they go down and try to identify why they've gone down at that point. So for example, one of the other things I found was like,

I would do a round off at the end of a video. And at the point where you start rounding off a video, anyone who feels like they've got it, they're like, okay, I'm done. This is the end of the video. And so instead what I started doing is the second I finished the key content, I'm talking about the next video. So it's literally like, and that's what happened to Samsung.

Okay for the video on this that's there for the video on this that's there and I found immediately that like the amount of clicks I was getting on my end cards to lead to the next video We're like they tripled and so my outro now has my face in it It didn't used to have my face in it used to be this kind of blaring music Yeah, but now it feels like a continuation of the main content itself Yeah, and I'm kind of being like look over there look over there and they can see me pointing to videos and

And I think actually, I think you said this once, not that long ago, actually, that the people who watch till the end are the most valuable audience members because they're more likely to follow through, right? Yeah. Yeah. So the end card thing is something that we started doing as well about a year ago and it worked really nicely. But kind of beyond that, I didn't really, I don't really look at the numbers because it's... Scary? It's, yeah, it's scary. It also feels like, and I don't know if this is a relic of my kind of olden days of like

Just, I think I have drunk the consistency Kool-Aid way too much where it's like, once you made a video, then forget about the video onto the next one. And the kind of 1% improvements over time, I think I've been doing from my own gut of like, oh, it would be cool if the next video had this thing.

And especially when I was editing my own videos, that was a lot easier to do. Now that there's like a layer between me and the video being edited, it's actually harder, especially because our editor Christian is in Romania. It's a lot harder to affect change

even with the whole remote thing and even with like Frame.io and all this other stuff that I'm now even thinking to the point of like, let's get Christian to switch to Final Cut Pro so he can send me the project file and I can do the Final Cut myself so that I can then have more finely tuned control over what's going on in the video. - I can understand that. Like I've not still fully handed off stuff that I probably should have handed off 'cause it's your baby, right? It's your face, it's your voice, it's your name. So I understand that.

But to be honest, I've actually benefited a lot from having two people. It's not a big team, but two people who are specialists in the area and who like I can hand things to and I know they'll do them better than I would. Okay. Well, what does your team look like right now? So it's editor, camera guy. Okay. It's very, very basic, but it's my camera guy, my editor. They're very, very good at their jobs to the point where I'm like, if I've got any piece of graphics I want doing, I will consult them because I know that they'll know better than me.

How long have you had those guys for? Editor for about three years, camera guy for about a year. Do you do any of the editing yourself now? I do it as a last resort. If there's like something really urgent, which there does tend to be with tech, like, you know, if Apple does an event, you want to react to it, you're editing that video because you can't ask your employees to stay up all night. Although they do that actually voluntarily, but I don't ask them. But yeah, so I'll do it if I have to. And like, well, one thing that really strikes me about your video is that that's,

Basically every second there is something going on and I can't help but continuing to watch it and then the meta part of me is thinking, "Ah, I love like all of these different things that are going on to make me encourage and encourage me to keep watching this." And the content itself is very valuable. And so I think one thing that we do well on this on my channel is that the content is broadly valuable, but we do basically nothing when it comes to the visual side of things and it may as well be a podcast.

Yes. And I think like that, anytime I see one of your videos, I feel like ridiculously inspired. Like, oh my God, like the amount of post production has gone into this. It's insane. It's a kind of the, the way I describe it is a, an aggregation of micro refinements. So it's like all that stuff hasn't happened overnight. If you kind of go back through the channel and watch one video every year, you'd see a few new things each time. So like that's,

The day that I decided, okay, I'm going to spend more time on music and try to create moods with what I'm saying. The day I decided to put my face in a circle so I'm visible at all times. And we've tried these experiments, looked at those graphs, seen that they've worked, and then realized, okay, these are mainstays. Is it like...

You have a gut feeling that when I put my face on the thing while showing overlay, it'll work. And then you look at the data? Yeah, exactly that. So you have a gut feeling. You try it. It works or it doesn't work. And then you action it. And how can you tell? Like you adding your face versus not adding a face. It's not like you're releasing the same video face and no face. So you have a control. It's tough. But like I think when you spend that much time with the data, you have a gauge on how well a certain video will keep people. Okay.

So, for example, I know that if I make a camera comparison, they don't have good retention. Like an average camera comparison might have 45, 50% retention. Okay. Right? And so, if you do a camera comparison and it gets 55%, you're like, that is an outlier. Oh, okay. Or if I do an unboxing or a top 10, if I do a top 10, that's going to get really good retention. Yeah. And so, you'll know what to expect. And in your top 10s, you start from number 10 rather than number one. Always. And...

you go, so something like, you know, and it starts off, it starts off A and then becomes B and then becomes positively C. And it's like, it's all so...

It's just so clever. I spend a lot of time on the scripts. And the other thing I do actually is when I'm scripting, I'm thinking of three different people. Okay. So there's three people I know in my life of different levels of, I guess, tech enthusiasm. And so with every line, I've almost reached a stage where I'm scanning it being like, is this interesting to all these three people? Would they watch this? Would they watch this? Would they watch this? Would they understand this? Is this funny to them? All that kind of stuff.

And I think when you do that, you end up with a script that is a little more broadly appealing than it would otherwise be. How much time do you spend on scripting? That's most of what I do.

Okay. So like for a standard, let's say for a kind of Google Pixel versus iPhone 13 Pro camera comparison, 22 minute long video. So that would, is it 22 minutes? 22 minutes, yeah. Oh yeah, that was your toilet break. That was my toilet break, yeah. Watching at double speed, obviously. Oh, oh dear. I think that was probably three and a half days of scripting. Three and a half days? Yeah. Are we talking eight hour days? No, we're talking like 14 hour days. We're talking like...

42 hours spent on scripting a single video ages and ages ages because i do the initial kind of like what i think is going to happen yeah then i test the phones and kind of like because remember like what i'm saying i am having to create my own findings i'm not taking things and like doing you know passing them on so you have to make sure for every single thing you say it is correct

And that is one thing that I almost wouldn't, I wouldn't trust anyone else with because it's my name and my integrity. Yeah, that's your secret sauce as well. Yeah. Yeah. So I know how to test these products, but it takes time. Bloody hell.

What about for like a stand, like, so you did a video that was ways in which tech is bad. I'm worried about humanity. Yeah, that was a bit of a departure from your phone's vibe. Yeah, you're not going to like this. It took about eight days of scripting, I think. So about 100 hours of scripting. Something like that. Yeah, I wasn't keeping track, but it was a long time.

It's the kind of time that like the practical part of me is thinking like, is this time well spent? But sometimes I kind of like, I get carried away thinking about how viewers are going to think, you know, I'm thinking about these three different categories of viewers and, and then sometimes scripts get away, away from you. It's like, okay, this should be a 12 minute video. And then you actually try and do it. And you're like, oh my God, that's 25, 26 minutes. So sometimes things add up out of your control and I don't tamper them because sometimes I'm like,

It's okay. This is going to be a big project. This is going to do really well over time. It's going to hit the YouTube criteria. It's fine. We'll spend more time on it. Tell me more about your process for videos. I'm going full selfish mode. I just want to learn from you here. So before, I think most YouTubers, when you reach a certain size, you start planning videos backwards. So when you think about a video, you're thinking about thumbnail, title, would people click on it? And then from there, you're like, okay,

What's the content going to be like? Is it engaging? Is it delivering value? Will people finish that video thinking, whoa, I like this guy?

And then at that point, then you're thinking, you take a step further back. It's like, okay, what's the storyline? What's the subplot? How are you keeping people throughout that video engaged? And then you work all the way back. And then that's the point where you've got your content. You know what your next step is. The way, the normal, the trigger point is either an idea I've had in bed or some past video that did really well that people really enjoyed. And they're like, can we have a part two? Or something someone else has done that I think...

That's a really interesting idea. What if I applied it to phones or, you know, gadgets or whatever? I really got a sense that there was a storyline because you were like, I'm going to tell you about this product, but there's like, but there's a question here, like, who's it for? And it was like, you were, you kept on, that was like a thread going through, going through the content.

And all that stuff is the stuff that you do in your kind of multiple passes of figuring out. It's almost like writing a book. It is. Yeah. It is. In my head, like, I never thought I'd write as much as I do. Like, when I was a kid, I thought I'll be doing something where I'm working on an Excel spreadsheet or something. It didn't occur to me that my job is basically video essays. I started listening to your book about four or five days ago. And the very first chapter talks about this idea of me plus me.

I wonder if you can elaborate, what does "Me Plus" mean?

So if you, I mean, if you go back to the economics, we're really good, I think, at making, at helping ourselves in the present day. So we know what makes us happy in the moment, but very often the things that we have to invest in to give our future selves a better future, we don't often do. So what I like people to do is to think about where would they like to be if it all worked out? So if they threw out, you know, loss aversion, if they threw out fear of failure, where will they actually end up being? And have that be their me plus.

But before they commit to that being their me plus, really think about what will that me plus actually do? Because I've noticed a lot of times when I talk to people about careers, they're attached to a label. So they want to be a trader or an investment banker or they want to be a doctor or they're attached to a lifestyle. So they want to be able to go on a particular vacation or buy a particular car.

And the kind of Think Big journey is really thinking about if I were to be a doctor, if I were to be a trader, what would be the tasks that I would be doing on a day-to-day basis? And would I ultimately end up enjoying those tasks? So the activities that I'm going to spend the time in.

And there's two reasons for that. So one, it makes you happier to actually do tasks that you like, which feels like a no brainer. But secondly, if you're engaged in tasks that you like, you tend to be more successful. And it's the second that I'm really interested in and kind of getting people into jobs where they feel that they've reached the success that they want. Okay, interesting. And do you think,

When it comes to being engaged in tasks that you like, some people say it's a case of find the thing that fits within your values, your personality. And once you find that thing, then you'll find it fun. And then there's another school of thought that says, well, you know, the whole finding something that you're passionate about is actually kind of hard to do. So think about the stuff that you're actually doing and find ways to make it more interesting for yourself.

How do you feel about those two different camps? I don't really feel that they're different. So, you know, so people are claiming now that they choose companies based on the values the companies might have. And I think that's true in the same way that we choose a company based on a salary. But when you're actually in the job, what tends to matter with respect to productivity and happiness is how you feel in those tasks in that moment.

And if I'm working for a company that's saving the environment, but I've been treated really badly in a microculture in order to save that environment, there's a couple of companies come to mind when I think about that, then I'm not going to be productive and I'm not going to be happy. And I'm actually likely to leave that job. So it's more about going beyond thinking, what is the company's mission? What is my personality? And what is the microculture of the team that I'm going to be working in and

will that make me happy? Will I be connected to the mission because my team is connected to the mission? It's very hard to assess in advance when you're applying for a job. It's really hard. It is. It's really, really hard. And I think then if you bring it down to the tasks and asking at an interview, what will I be doing on a day-to-day basis? So when I come to work for you, Ali, what would I be doing on a day-to-day basis as part of your team? So if you can imagine me on a Monday, how will I spend my time?

The fact that you as a manager have thought about that, firstly, will tell me that you're a good manager because you'll know actually what you want the person to do. And you're not just hiring blindly. But the second is having that information allows me to make my mind up. Because if I like the tasks, I'm probably going to like the team. Okay. Yeah, that's very interesting. So that was a big...

part of the message I took away from the Me Plus stuff. And the way it manifested in my life when I read it, I was thinking, okay, you know, let's engage with this. Like, what's kind of, what does Me Plus look like? And initially I was thinking, oh, you know, I'd really like to have six pack abs. And then I came across the bit where you were like, no, no, forget about that. Focus on like, what do the tasks look like? And I was like, okay, you know what? What I want Me Plus to do is to be able to exercise every day and to have fun doing it.

Yeah.

Is that the sort of thing that you get a lot when you're doing this sort of research, that process rather than outcome kind of thing? So I kind of write a lot for kind of people who mightn't have made it yet or people who have plateaued. So if you take the exercising analogy from somebody who's contemplating doing the kind of a 5k run rather than somebody who is contemplating doing the London Marathon and is really well placed for that. And I think for the person who hasn't done exercise for a while or the person who has really invested in their career for a while, the worst thing they can do is do too much.

So if you hadn't invested for a while, the worst thing you could do is go to the gym for three hours. You might get through it today, but the chances of repeating that are really, really small. And I think kind of the one of the big powerful messages underlying Think Big is whether you're focused on your health or whether you're focused on your career. It's those small actions that you take today will determine yourself in two years time, three years time and four years time. And actually by throwing out the idea.

that you're going to reinvent yourself in 30 days is really, really powerful because you're much more likely to stick to it. You know, you can accomplish an extraordinary amount in 12 months, very little in, you know, 12 minutes or, you know, a very short period of time. You know, I've been making videos semi-themed around productivity for the last four years and a big chunk of the advice boils down to consistency and just showing up and taking small actions repeatedly and in a way not really worrying so much about the ultimate goal of

And these days I teach courses helping people become like YouTubers and stuff. And the way you become a successful YouTuber is you just make one or two videos every week for the next like five years. But no one sticks to it for that long because they have like the, oh, I must hit a certain subscriber count. I must hit a certain like view count. And my view on this is that having like in a way those outcome metrics, the ones that are outside of our control are kind of unhelpful, especially at the start of a journey. Do you have any thoughts on that point? Yeah.

Well, when you were talking, it actually reminds me, I watched a video of yours on compounding. So when people are choosing to invest, we accept compounding very, very easily, right? So we accept the idea actually that, you know, if we leave money in for a very long period of time, it's going to compound. So we're probably going to be okay in our pensions.

And it's exactly the same here when it comes to your career, like those very small things that you're going to do today. And I ask for a commitment of 90 minutes a week, which for most people, regardless of how pressurized you feel, is very, very possible. That should compound once you've chosen tasks that align with your me plus relatively quickly. Okay.

90 minutes a week. That's like 13 minutes a day-ish. Yes. Very doable. It is. For most things, yeah. One bit that I was going to ask you about that I thought maybe I disagreed with was you talk, like the title of the book is Think Big. Yeah. And the vibe I got from the chapter around goals is that you're keen on people setting, or perhaps not, but like one camp of people in this sphere is encouraging people to set these big, hairy, audacious goals and,

And then figuring out the small steps you can take to get there. But then there's another camp, and this is sort of where I think I am, whereby I think, in a way, I feel maybe setting goals is a bit overrated. Because if you're setting a goal, then...

Essentially, to me, that feels like a contract to be unhappy until you hit the goal. And then you hit the goal and then you have this fleeting sense of like, oh, I hit a million subscribers. Cool. You know, my day-to-day hasn't really changed, et cetera, et cetera. So the way I kind of think about goals is I try and throw goals out the window and instead just focus on those, like, what do I actually want to do? But I don't know if I'm just, like, BSing myself and, like...

Well, you're doing okay. So that seems to be working for you. I mean, I think so. So for people who read the book, the goal is really there to serve two purposes. So one, so that you start investing in your career. So it helps to find the tasks this week. And two, so that you actually bring your future self forward. So you're not always investing in activities that just serve you in the present day, but in

But in the book, I do talk about the idea that every Sunday, so every kind of, well, I pick Sunday because it's the start of my week, that you reflect on how the week previous went and you look to see whether or not there are new opportunities that you should be pivoting your goal for.

So I see the think big part of the book as really giving people a direction so they can set off on a journey and they start walking and more interesting things might actually come along, but they make a conscious decision to follow those interesting things. So then they go off on a slightly different journey. So yeah.

If you take your own career, for example, it was probably a great idea that you studied medicine in Cambridge, right? And now you have an entirely different career, but you are using some of the skills that you actually learned in the university. So in that particular case, you would have sat back and said, actually, do I really want to pivot and do a large pivot? And the answer would have been yes.

But had you never gone into medical school, maybe you would never have started walking in this direction and come to the destination. So it's really about movement. Oh, okay. That's very interesting. I was having these thoughts. It was a few weeks ago and I was on a date and we were kind of driving around afterwards, just like chatting.

And I was kind of thinking that like driving around without a destination, it's just like if it felt a bit wrong. And so I just put the destination of the like the McDonald's drive through in the sat nav. And it wasn't really about the destination. It was about, OK, I've got a destination now. Now I know what the journey is.

And when we got to the McDonald's drive-thru, it was like, "Whatever, it's a McDonald's drive-thru." The destination is actually not that important, but the point is, I was thinking, "Huh, maybe having the destination lets you kind of set the direction for your journey, and then you can always change your mind as you go further down the line."

And as humans, we love certainty. So even if we've created for ourselves, this is the goal that we're moving towards, then we change our mind. For the period of time that we're moving, there is certainty. One of the biggest things that hampers people's growth and, you know, stops them kind of getting to the place where they probably deserve to be is that they feel that the journey is actually uncertain. So by kind of having that destination allows you to kind of to move towards it. Ah, okay. Yeah. This reminds me of advice I got when I was in med school where

like once you've done your, once you start your clinical years, the question everyone asks is, oh, what specialty do you want to do? And the honest answer for the vast majority of people is, I don't freaking know. I have no idea. Like, you know, there are those odd like weirdos that I've decided at the age of three, they want to be a neurosurgeon. But for most of us, it's like, honestly, I don't know. I just want to kind of get a feel of different specialties and kind of,

And the advice that one of the consultants I really respected gave me was that, like, honestly, just pick something and start moving towards it, because then you will start doing things that will build up your CV and you'll start actually finding opportunities your way. And then if you want to change your mind, it's much easier to change direction when you're moving forward rather than when you're stationary.

And you learn about yourself as well. What do I like and what do I dislike? Which you won't do if you're just kind of standing still. So kind of, you know, I write about what should you do if you have no idea what you want to do in the future, where a lot of young people are and actually people who are later in life. And again, it's really about thinking, what do I kind of like doing now? So let's do some more of that and move towards the goal.

And then on the way being really reflective, am I enjoying these tasks or am I just doing it because I like the idea of becoming a surgeon or becoming a lawyer or becoming another job title? And I really want people to move away from the second. You know, I kind of think with the future of work, we have this disruption where people who are able to kind of pivot, know what their skills are, job craft, which you've mentioned already, it will really stand to them.

Yeah, so it's like you're moving away from being and more towards doing. Yes. Being a doctor versus like, what does the day-to-day of practicing medicine actually look like? And does this sound like the sort of thing that is my idea of fun right now? And I guess...

I guess like it's kind of, you know, there's that thing in the research about it's hard for us to predict what will make us happy in the future. But it's a reasonable first approximation that the sort of stuff I enjoy doing now, like talking to people like you or like making videos, is likely to also probably make me happy in the future. And if it doesn't, then, well, I can just change course. Yeah, this is like a grid search. So what the government should have done in COVID, and some governments did incredibly well, was what we call this grid search strategy where they get new data.

they update their decision-making based on the data and they're willing to go backwards or they're willing to go left and they're willing to go right.

and always having that openness to a change of direction and I think if we kind of bring that into careers that you know really we don't know our preferences very well we've watched some tv when we're young so depending on what you watch that might actually ultimately determine your career maybe you move towards that if you have no idea but always paying attention to am I enjoying the tasks is it do I feel purpose if I was doing this in five years time would I be really really happy and that

And that brings us to the end of season one of the Deep Dive podcast. I really hope you've enjoyed the season. Thank you so much if you've tuned in for to some or all of the episodes. And thank you even more if you've left a review on Apple Podcasts, you can still do that. It'll be linked in the video description or in the show notes. If you'd like to leave us a review, it really does help more people discover the podcast. Thank you as well if you filled out the mid-season feedback survey. We've used that to improve the

the quality of the podcast, hopefully moving forward. I am taking a lot of the advice that you guys gave for how to become a better interviewer because this is something that's fairly new to me and I'm definitely on this quest to improve as an interviewer over time. Anyway, just wanted to say a huge thank you for watching season one. Merry Christmas, happy new year and all that. And hopefully I'll see you in season two in the new year. Thank you and bye-bye.