How to Land your Dream Job - Chats with my Team ( @KaelynGraceApple )
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If you can be seen and you can be seen doing good work, then you are more likely to get your foot in the door if there is an opportunity. You need to be seen working really hard, so you need to be seen.

In this episode, I'm interviewing one of my newest, I think my newest team member, Kaylin Apple, who is actually herself a YouTuber with over 100,000 subscribers. She's also a former professional athlete. She is currently doing a PhD, which is nearly finished. And she joined our team as the community manager for our productivity lab. What I felt like I was missing in my experience as an entrepreneur...

was that I wanted the team. I wanted to feel like I was immersed in something that was bigger than me. And I think this is part of why entrepreneurs go into wanting to start their own projects because they don't see it being created by somebody else. So they figure, okay, I'll make it myself. I had seen it in your YouTube videos, but I hadn't ever really gotten to see it up close. And getting to see how your brain works is so fascinating to me.

Kaylin, welcome to whatever this podcast ends up being. How are you doing? I'm great. Glad to be here. So you are one of the newest team members. And before we were recording, you mentioned that you had networked your way to this job. I wonder if you can elaborate. How did you network your way to this job? And what can other people potentially learn from that?

All right. So I knew that I was moving to London probably about six months in advance of when I actually was. And I knew that part of the reason I wanted to move to London was for my research, for my PhD. But I was also moving for the opportunity to grow my YouTube channel, meet people, and be a little closer to the action. And one thing that I wanted to do was...

connect with other people that were doing things that I thought were cool and that I was generally interested in. And so it wasn't thinking about networking in the framework of, oh, if I reach out to some person and build a connection, it'll land me a job. The way I thought about networking was, let me just find ways to be in the general ecosphere of people that are doing things that I think are cool. And one way that I

sought to do that was actually joining PTYA. Oh, I'm part of the YouTuber Academy. Yes. And part of it was to grow my YouTube channel and to network and meet other people. But if I'm honest, one of the main reasons I wanted to join PTYA was because then if I've learned anything in my life, it's that if you can be seen and you can be seen doing good work, then you are more likely to get your foot in the door if there is an opportunity. Hmm.

And this is a philosophy that helped me as a professional athlete, landed me my first professional training job as an equestrian. It's what has landed me opportunities in academia and now is landing me opportunities professionally. And it has meant that, you know, I joined PTUAA. And then when I got to London, I attended an event and I just made it Sotway, uh,

My plan was to just make sure that my name was visible, make sure that my work was visible. And if an opportunity arose, then hopefully there would be some name recognition. And that was another strategy when I was applying for this job was, okay, I'm going to make a video. And there was a video application required. And I was like, okay, so how can I do this in a way that reminds them that they've likely seen a YouTube video of mine before? Yeah.

And so I just made sure that the branding style of the video and like the titles and all the flow of the video was very much like my other content. Yeah. That's very interesting. Yeah. Because when you applied for the job, like I didn't know that you'd apply for the job because now I don't know who applies until the final two or three people make it through. And when I heard that you were in one of the final two, I was like, Kaylin, you're

Yeah, she came to one of our meetups. She had that viral video about something about PhD, something or other. And yeah, she seemed cool. And that was immediately like 500 points above anyone else because it's like, oh, we know that you're a normal person and that you do cool things and that you were broadly chill at the meetup. Yeah. We've had people come to some of our meetups where they're like, they're not chill about it. They're like almost overly relaxed.

fanboy or fangirly and quite like pushy with like, no, I, you know, here's my CV. I really would love to work in all it. Like it's, there's, there's a level of hustle that's like, um, palatable. And then there's a level of hustle that goes a little bit unpalatable. I think that that's the, the first version of networking that people think of is I'm going to have a direct communication with somebody, have an informational interview or go into a conversation with this person and immediately try to get them to give me a job. Um,

But networking is about relationships and long-term connection and relationships.

So if somebody, you know, thinks of you in an, when an opportunity is brought up, they might be like, oh, I remember somebody that they attended this event and then they followed up and they did this thing. And we've, you know, we've kind of in the periphery been aware of what they're, what they've been doing and, you know, they do good work. And when they put themselves up for an opportunity, they're,

then that recognition works in your favor. And it's also not thinking A plus B equals C. It's thinking, okay, if I put myself in a place where I am recognizable, I am recognized for having done good work,

I've done that over a longer period of time, but then the right opportunity has come up. Yeah. That's when that comes to fruition. So I wasn't just joining PTOAA to immediately land a job. It was...

I like what Ali and his team are doing. It's the type of environment that I could see myself working in. And, you know, I want to grow in this YouTube space and this productivity space. And so I'm just going to learn from them, but I'm going to also put myself in the room so that way there's some recognition. Yeah. Yeah. One thing that Tony Robbins is particularly big on is the phrase proximity is power. Yeah. And this whole shtick is, you know,

partly it's a bit of a self-serving shtick because he wants you to pay for his events and all that kind of stuff. But it is kind of true. If you're in the room with the sorts of people who are doing interesting things or things that you find interesting, then you are just way more likely to, you know, something interesting will happen. And you may not be able to predict ahead of time what that interesting thing is.

And I think this is why a lot of people like don't do this because they don't appreciate that it's a probabilistic serendipitous. You're just sort of generally doing things that increase your surface area for something lucky to happen. Yeah. Like it's kind of lucky that like the job for productivity lab community manager came up, which, which fit, which fits squarely in your portfolio.

In your wheelhouse. Yeah. You know, we've had jobs coming up for executive assistant in the past when that felt less squarely in your wheelhouse. Precisely. But it's like you set yourself up such that when the appropriate opportunities opportunity comes up, your ability to capitalize on that opportunity is way higher than someone else who hasn't been doing the groundwork. Precisely. And I think, you know, an important part of what you said that I really liked is you are seen to be doing good work. Yeah. Why? Why specifically seem to be doing good work rather than just seem?

Because you want the recognition to be credibility. It's not just, oh, I recognize this person because they show up to a lot of things. It's the question that you ask, for example. I remember going up to you at the P2A meetup and I asked you specifically about delegation and how to find an editor. And the question was important to me, but it was also, I want to make sure that I have a communication that...

I am asking for value. I'm asking for information that I really want to learn from this person. And even if you don't remember that particular interaction, that's not necessarily what's important. It's that every time that person kind of sees you in action, they see you

doing good work. They see you asking good questions. They see you putting out good content. They see you as someone who is a team player generally. And this can apply in any industry. So this doesn't just mean getting a job. It can also mean, you know, being seen as somebody that somebody would like to have you speak at an event. I, for example, Vee Kati Vu, I met her when I was at Oxford.

I ran into her on the street. And I didn't want to just say, oh, I'm such a fan of you and I really love your videos. I wanted to make sure she remembered that interaction. So I specifically said, like, what video was...

had made a difference for me and was one of the reasons that I had sought to apply to Oxford. And then when we interacted again, you know, several months later, she had actually followed me on Instagram and she had said, oh, I remember that interaction. And she had seen my content and she had seen me talking about PhD admissions and

And then a year later, she's asking me to speak at Empowered by V at her conference. And so it's not thinking about, oh, that one interaction is going to lead to a result. It's thinking, okay, I just want to make sure that I have interactions with people that are doing work that I really admire and that I really enjoy and want to be a part of in some way. But I don't necessarily know what that kind of interaction is going to be yet.

But I'm just going to open the door for possibility. And I'm just going to put myself in a position where I'm recognized as somebody that is kind, is credible, and that is thoughtful, hopefully. Yeah. Yeah, I think a really big part of this, like a real unfair advantage is, for example, the fact that you make YouTube videos. Yes. Because it's like a public display of your work. It is. And if I think back to, you know, we hired Bhav fairly early on. She was like employee number four or five. I can't remember at this point. Yeah.

But Bob had a podcast and it was a tiny podcast. It had like 70 subscribers, but she came up to, she came to one of my Cambridge meetups. She took the train like an hour and a half just to meet up with me in Cambridge. At that meetup, she was normal and friendly and was at the time in a corporate job that she didn't particularly enjoy. And so she had started this podcast on the side as a bit of a side hustle and asked, Hey, Ali, would you be down to be on my podcast? And I was like, yeah, sure. Why not? You know, sure. You know, this seems kind of nice. It's like,

Why not? And then we had a really good conversation on the podcast where she asked good questions. And so then when she joined our YouTuber Academy and we were thinking, okay, of the people who've joined, who could be a mentor? It's like, oh, this person who I know who I've done a podcast with. Yeah. Her podcast has like five subscribers, but that wasn't, that's not what was meaningful. What was meaningful was the fact that she was doing the podcast as a side hustle while having a job.

Similarly, when Tintin got hired, he had a YouTube channel. When Saf got hired, he had a YouTube channel. Like, you know, a surprisingly large amount of the people like comparatively who we've ended up hiring have had some sort of public display of their work. Gareth's case, I don't think he had a YouTube channel at the time, but he had a blog where he had a business where he was sharing like free notes for law school admissions and stuff like that. Yeah.

So there's just so much value in being public about sharing your work, which is the whole Austin Cleo and show your work shtick as well. Yeah, but this also applies in a variety of other social situations. I applied this when I was in grad school. I made sure that I was always sitting in the public lounge where all the professors would come and get their coffee. And so instead of going to the library where it wasn't visible to my mentors and the people that I wanted to impress and the people that I wanted to get advice from, I

I sat where they were. And so they would come in to get their coffee, you know, once or twice a day and they'd still see me sitting there and I'd be there, you know, basically every day. And I remember a professor that I had had asked me in office hours once, he's like, why do you, why do you study in the lounge? I was like, well, there's more opportunities to have conversations with the people in the department if I'm in the lounge.

And it's funny because those opportunities to connect, it's thinking about how it is that you can kind of create what is considered like a third space. So whether that's connecting online by having a digital presence or that's making sure that you're just kind of visible within the room when events are happening. It's also putting yourself in that situation and then asking thoughtful questions and making

somebody kind of develops a persona of you that is somebody who does, you know, works hard, but is also is seen working. So they have this immediate association. Yeah. Nice. So what's your first, I guess, two months on the job? How long have you been with us now? It's only been like five weeks. Oh, only five weeks. Okay. Well, one to two months. How's the first five weeks been? Oh, it's been wonderful. It's funny watching the videos and seeing the team and then being in it. And

It's kind of what I expected, to be honest. Like everybody is so kind and so ready to help one another. And that's one thing that I was really missing being a PhD student and a YouTuber. I just felt really isolated in the work that I was doing. And being on a team where I get to communicate with Gareth and Bev and Allison and I have the coaches, it just feels so much more collaborative and engaging.

The investment, you can feel that everybody on the team really wants to build a product that is not only a great product, but that also has longevity and has scalability. And that was something that I felt like I was missing, even running my own businesses, is that I had a team and it did feel collaborative to an extent, but I kind of wanted to be immersed in it. I didn't want to just kind of be at the high level of...

delegating. And I think that's a really good position for me. So I'm really liking it. Nice. What's been the worst part of working here? I think just finding the balance with starting a new product and figuring out what it's going to be and how it is that it's going to change and trying to get the systems put into place. I have learned in my time having run my own businesses and doing my PhD is that once I start a project, it's really hard for me to

take a step back. And so trying to set more clear boundaries. Everybody on this team works really hard. And Bab, for example, is like constantly online and wanting to, you know, impress the team and do a really good job. But also make sure that I'm doing the things that I can in order to ensure that I am as productive a team member as possible. So knowing that that requires me to take a step back every once in a while.

And do you get the sense that if you're not online, then like, I don't know, Alison or Gareth will feel like, oh, Cailin's not putting her weight or like what's, what's going on in your head about this? There's,

Because I guess in some jobs, there is this idea that like, if I'm seen to be leaving on time, then people will look down on me or something like that. So I think there is that natural anxiety that is part of it. But on the other hand, I also know that I don't want the coaches that are working with me to see that, for example, I am online 24-7 and expect that they are online. And so trying to remind myself to lead by example, right?

While also combating the inner voice that says, oh, well, if you need to be seen working really hard, so you need to be seen. You need to be seen online or you need to be seen adding, you know, updates to Slack and that kind of thing. But one thing that I have started to do and have communicated clearly with the

the team is I will let you know when I am offline and when I am back online. So that way I am clearly communicating when I am setting a boundary that I need to take a step back. Or I even put up a message saying, I'm going into two hours of deep work. I won't be answering messages, but I'll check back in at this time. I find that if you're able to communicate that and people are aware of what it is that you're doing, then that anxiety of, oh, what's Kaylin up to? Is she actually working? Yeah.

I feel like that there's less anxiety of that from the side of my supervisor, but also from my own understanding. But at the same time, I'm trying to do that to model that behavior for other people on the team and hope that they also know that they can take a step back and that, for example, they can go and do deep work. And this is something I've learned from running my own businesses and having teams where

The trying to lead by example is the best mode of action. And so if I want to, for example, have my coaches, the people on my team that are working with me,

I want them to be excited and ready to go and to be able to take on a task, but also to say where their boundaries are, because I don't want them to take on something that they actually don't have capacity for. If I can model that, then the hope is that they will also do the same. And I've seen little bits of that so far, which is good. Yeah.

Oh, by the way, quick thing. In case you are interested in starting and or growing and or monetizing a YouTube channel, then you might like to check out my part-time YouTuber Academy. It is a course that has dozens and dozens of hours of content in it, along with templates and worksheets and resources that basically open source absolutely everything that me and my team have learned about growing my YouTube channel and also this podcast YouTube channel over the last seven plus years. So you can check that out at academy.alibdal.com. That'll be linked down below in the video description and the show notes as well. Feel free to check out the part-time YouTuber Academy. Yeah.

So you went from entrepreneur to employee, which sort of seems a bit backwards because a lot of people who are currently employees dream about being an entrepreneur. Yeah. Why did you decide that you didn't want to be a full-time entrepreneur and instead wanted a job? I...

On the surface, want stability. So that's one part of it. Having lived on the full-time income of being a YouTuber and content creator and creating my own courses and businesses and things, there's this constant kind of anxiety of, oh, well, what if it ever goes away? And that's the thing is that that's kind of artificial as well because a job could just disappear. You could get let go. But what I felt like I was missing...

in my experience as an entrepreneur was that I wanted the team. I wanted to feel like I was immersed in something that was bigger than me. And I think this is part of why entrepreneurs go into wanting to start their own projects because they don't see it being created by somebody else. So they figure, okay, I'll make it myself. And what I found was that I did make it myself and I felt like I did a

There was also limitations to the brands that I felt like I could build. And I wanted to build something that had more impact. And the way that I thought about doing that was either I pivot my brand significantly and I create like a three-year strategy in order to move towards a space where I can create a wider community that's not just academics or I

there's somebody that's doing this already and I can immerse myself in that team and make that a really killer product. And I like collaboration. I think I have the ability to be an innovator and to be somebody who's a leader, but I actually think I'm more of a systems person.

I think the granular is actually what I enjoy. I had a job when I was, I think I was 21. I worked in medical device regulatory research, which is really random. We did FDA submissions for medical devices. And I had been a professional athlete up until this point. So I had no idea what an office job was going to be like.

And the one task that I enjoyed the most was data entry, which nobody relates to. Everybody hates data entry. But I really liked the focused, granular, you know, I put on my music and I have to just really get into the weeds and making sure that the system's working. And that's what I found really lit my brain up. So I find that I like ideas and I like being able to

you know, bring that into fruition. And that's the entrepreneurial side of my brain. But there's also this part of my brain that really enjoys being at a team, really likes working in the weeds. And I couldn't really do that being the leader of my own company. And so I decided that it would be better served for all of my skills to be useful to a bigger team rather than it being just solely useful to me. Nice.

Bit of a self-aggrandizing question or like self-centered question, but what surprised you about, I guess, getting to know me in real life versus seeing some of the videos and being part of the YouTuber Academy?

If anything. So I think there's always a bit of a distance. It's a parasocial relationship, right? We have this idea of a person that we see online versus what is the person in real life. It's not that different. I feel like part of that is because I watched your videos back when you were in

Cambridge. I watch your vlogs. And so I felt like I knew a bit more of who you are in terms of being a little quirky, a little chaotic at times. But also when push comes to shove, you really know how to implement. And I was saying this to someone when we were at WeWork a couple days before the launch of the productivity lab and watching your mind work in a visual way on a whiteboard. Yeah.

I'd seen it in your YouTube videos, but I hadn't ever really gotten to see it up close. And getting to see how your brain works is so fascinating to me. And so I wouldn't say it's all that different, but you just, you feel more human. And getting to see how your team works with all of the quirks that you have and the quirks that other people have and seeing how that all

works to support one another is really interesting and also in a way it's funny getting to see especially with launching a new product and you know we've got templates and other things that how to get done at the last minute and I see a little bit of like how I operate and the way that you operate at times and so well for example I like the the last minute crunch I

I love it. And so, for example, the night before Productivity Lab launched, I had a dissertation deadline the same weekend that we were launching. And so I was up with the team until, you know, 11. And then I was up until 2 working on the dissertation. And then we were up in the morning finishing to make sure Productivity Lab was done. And everybody was hustling and making sure that everything was getting done. But everybody's got their head down on their computer just cranking it out.

And I just enjoy it. I just like it. I like being in that. I like being in that environment. And so that's where when somebody puts on their resume, for example, like I, you know, work best in high intensity environments and whatnot. I think it needs to be in short bursts. Like I think if that's the environment 24-7, that's a bit of a problem. Yeah. But.

The times that I've always enjoyed my work the most is when it's kind of down to the wire and it seems like you have a similar tendency. So yeah, it's not fun if it's not, if it's not done at the last minute. Um, what would you say are the biggest weaknesses that we as a business have? I think the part that I'm seeing firsthand is that it kind of operates like a startup. Yeah.

And it's continuously adapting. And I know that the goal at the moment is to think about long-term scale and seeing you and Angus trying to put those, put those building blocks in place and,

is, is really fascinating. I'm, I'm curious how we'll look at it like two, three years from now and what products are available and what it is that we're building. I think that we have a general idea, but wanting a more cohesive understanding, I suppose, is one thing that I'm trying to think of how it is that I would describe this in a more clear way.

I think this goes back to the naming thing of trying to decide, you know, Ali Abdaal Limited, Productivity Lab, PTYA, and wanting a very cohesive vision of what the brand is and will build. And so I think that the weaknesses that I see right now are things that are actively being worked on and are actively being discussed and trying to figure out what tools we're going to be implementing. But I would say...

having a more cohesive vision for the five years from now is something that I think is a bit missing. And what does that result in? Like that lack of a cohesive vision? I think if we have, well, I'll put it in your own terms. I think if we have that North star that we're thinking of in the grand scheme of what, what we think the overall brand is going to be, that's not just reliant on you and your YouTube channel and, um,

Thinking about how it is to build something that could be sold or building something that has its own identity. It gives us a clearer picture as to what the roadmap towards that point might be. Yeah.

But I think we're on the way to building out what that vision is. And I think part of that is thinking about how it is that we're building out productivity lab and what opportunities there are with that. Because there's so many. Because right now it's really focused on the granular individual and them implementing a system of productivity. But for example, the way this team operates, and don't get me wrong, I'm only a couple weeks in, but...

It is organized in such a way that really puts company culture forward and really puts communication forward in a way that I think is very effective. And I've worked at bigger companies that also have done a very good job of implementing these types of systems. And from where I stand, this business started with a foundation of trying to make sure that that company culture comes first. And I think that that'll pay dividends. Yeah.

So if, let's say you, so now that you've seen the inside of what this looks like, if you were to decide, you know what, I'm going to become the next productivity girl or whatever, and build a sort of Ali Abdaal equivalent type business, how would you go about doing it? Like what would, what are the sorts of things you'd be thinking about? So one thing I think is really missing in the, so there's, there's two answers to this question. Cause I think there's a,

productivity brand question, and then there's a productivity business question. And they overlap, but I don't think they're necessarily the same thing. So in terms of productivity brand, as people like Cal Newport and others have started to identify, there is a need within the productivity space to consider neurodiversity. And it's a bit challenging to do so if you're not coming from a position of somebody who is neurodiverse. If you identify as neurotypical, you're

then it is difficult to talk on topics of neurodiversity. And there are many productivity creators and other types of productivity content that I think goes so far in the other direction of, you know, hustle culture. This is not accessible to somebody that is neurodiverse. So thinking about how it is that we create productivity content that is more accessible generally.

is something that I think is a bit of a conversation in the space. So you'd be the accessible productivity gal.

I would attempt to be. I don't think I'm necessarily the poster child for having done that because I identify as neurotypical. But thinking about how it is that we make the information more accessible to those that are neurodiverse and taking that into consideration in the way that we present information and productivity. Okay. And then the productivity business side? And productivity business side. At the moment, there's a lot that is focused on the individual, right?

and individual systems of productivity. And the kind of offshot of that is community. And I think that that's what Productivity Lab is beginning to implement. A lot of people rely on tools. Tools isn't something that we've really considered. And I think that's a bit of a challenging consideration because tools looks like applications, physical products, things that require a lot of

investment upfront that don't necessarily come to fruition in terms of direct user impact. And I think that we just need to be creative about what perhaps the

this fourth option looks like. So you've got the individual. So individual buys book, implements tools or implement strategies. And then we have community. So you have accountability and you have the ability to do so to build these systems alongside other people. And that's what I think Productivity Lab is really well suited to do. And then you have the tools.

And Productivity Lab incorporates some of those tools by saying, okay, these are the tools that have worked for us and here's how you implement them into the system. And you can do that in community. So we have those three things coupled. But I'm curious if there's a creative addition to that. And I don't exactly know what that is yet. But I think that there's something a bit missing in the implementation of these strategies that have long-term impact on an individual. Yeah.

Because it's one thing, for example, to try these strategies for, let's say, 14 days. It's the average of somebody who's like trying a new habit versus somebody that, you know, implements these strategies for three years. And I think right now we're really reliant on the individual, like making that decision and making that push. But how is it that we can create that experience in such a way that's not as much of a cognitive lift? Yeah.

to get over the hurdle of implementing these strategies. And I don't have an answer for that. Yeah. But I think that there's, if we can get creative, we can put our heads together. I think that there's an opportunity. Cool. Well, I think Callan Newport's going to be here shortly. So thank you for hopping on this spontaneous podcast. Of course. Any podding advice for anyone who's listened this far and is maybe inspired by what they've heard you say? Get your foot on the door. Be seen. Be seen doing good work and be seen doing work that you really care about. Ask thoughtful questions and...

Lead by example. Great. Thank you very much. Of course.

All right, so that's it for this week's episode of Deep Dive. Thank you so much for watching or listening. All the links and resources that we mentioned in the podcast are gonna be linked down in the video description or in the show notes, depending on where you're watching or listening to this. If you're listening to this on a podcast platform, then do please leave us a review on the iTunes store. It really helps other people discover the podcast. Or if you're watching this in full HD or 4K on YouTube, then you can leave a comment down below and ask any questions or any insights or any thoughts about the episode. That would be awesome. And if you enjoyed this episode, you might like to check out this episode here as well, which links in with some of the stuff that we talked about in the episode.

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