How To Design Your Career For Happiness - Samantha Clarke
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Oh, by the way, before we get into this episode, I would love to tell you a little bit about Life Notes. Now, Life Notes is a weekly-ish email that I send completely for free to my subscribers, and it contains my notes from life. So notes from books that I've read, podcasts I'm listening to, conversations I'm having, and experiences I'm having in work and in life. And around once a week, I write these up and share them in an email with my subscribers. So if you would like to get an email from me that contains the stuff that I'm learning, almost in real time as I'm learning it, you might like to subscribe. There is a link down in the show notes or in the video description.

I feel like we've all been put on this earth for a reason. And I think that there is just different skills or different things, different tools. We're not all supposed to be the same, right? Some of us will be the creators. Some of us will be the directors and the leaders. Some people will be the innovators. But it's having the spaciousness to really tap into that, which a lot of us don't.

because we have to pay the bills and we have to do this and that. But it's like, how might I leave my mark? Hey friends, and welcome back to Deep Dive, the ongoing podcast where I have conversations with authors, creators, entrepreneurs, and other inspiring people about...

how they got to where they are and the strategies and tools that we can use to help us live our collective best lives. I've just finished having a discussion with Samantha Clark, the author of the sick book, Love It or Leave It, How to Be Happy at Work. Samantha is a happiness researcher, happiness consultant is probably a fair way of saying it. She's a lecturer at the School of Life,

which you've no doubt come across on YouTube and other formats. And she's built a super interesting portfolio career, starting out as like a marketing person and then moving into shoes and to design into fashion. And now it's somehow ending up in this route where she advises huge companies and also individuals and coaches people on how to find happiness and work. And I think you're really gonna enjoy this conversation. We touch on a bunch of stuff. Like we do talk a lot about this idea of happiness. We talk about the six pillars of what it means to be happy in your career. We talk about the concepts in the love it or leave it, which is basically her kind of,

coaching model for helping people navigate career changes in life. And really, I took so much away from this. It almost felt like a bit of a personal coaching slash therapy session. Discovered a few new interesting tools like kind of human design and stuff that I'm going to explore a bit more. But really, Samantha really challenged me to think harder about what I want from my own life and my own career. And I

I'm hoping that by listening to this conversation, you'll be able to sort of put yourself in my shoes, like the way that I was kind of asking the questions and sort of essentially being coached through the process. And what I'm hoping the conversation will do for you is spark some thought that you wouldn't have had before listening to this, something that makes you think, oh, interesting. And that makes you think of your career and maybe nudges your life trajectory in a slightly different direction than it might have been before.

I'm still reeling from the effect of this conversation and thinking, oh my God, I need to spend the next like two hours just really thinking and sitting and thinking about like the stuff that we were talking about, which is what I'm going to do with my little journal, my little pen. But anyway, I hope you enjoy this conversation between me and Samantha Clark.

Especially now, I think we're in such fluid times that it's okay to be, I think we have to make peace with being many things, but also reworking what the word doctor could mean. I mean, you could be the doctor of stories in the way that you are today.

you know, creating lots of different experiences and giving people a prescription of some more of things that they can do through your videos. Oh yeah, that's a good way of thinking about it. I feel like there's so many word plays that we could do with titles that no longer fit us in one capacity but could be evolved into something else. Was that something that you were worried about as you were kind of changing careers? Like, what is my label? I think my parents were probably worried for me. Yeah, they were like, how do we sell you in? You know, like when you go to family events and they're like, she's, um,

I think maybe there was a period of time where I didn't feel like I fit in because all my friends had, you know, like they were following a certain route. And here I was doing a bit of style coaching on Wednesday. And then I'd be, you know, speaking and consulting with a client in Korea the next day. And they're like, what is it that you do? So I feel like everyone else also has the issue around it. Like, I don't know where to position you or what box to put you in. And then it becomes a little bit uneasy for them to,

But I think after a while, I just stood firm with the fact that I love to do lots of things. And I always will love to do lots of things. And that's okay. And if it's okay with me, then that's what matters. Yeah. What's the point of work? Any thoughts on that? What's the deal with work? Why? Why? Well, I mean...

I think it's that question of, it was funny, I was having this conversation with a couple of friends recently and one has just closed her business down. And she said, I just realized that I was working really hard to kind of fuel an engine that I didn't believe in anymore or I felt differently about. And it also wasn't giving me the revenue that I wanted. And then another friend is very purpose-driven. So for her, work is knowing that she's making a ripple effect on other people.

And so I think it is then us defining how do we want work to shape us? Like, how do we see ourselves growing and how can work be fuel for that fire and not take us away from it? So I definitely know that I am here in this world to be a supporter, to...

help to create transformations. I like to connect the dots for people. And at the moment, work doesn't feel like work. It feels like play. And the more that I look for the play and it feel less like this is the grind that I need to do to pay the bills, which, you know, is probably a bit of a privilege because there's a lot of people who still need to be in that functional way of thinking about work. But maybe...

to give us that, to help us take a step back from it. It's just thinking like, what's the effect that you want to have on your time here?

Like, what do you want to do? Like in your sharing people's stories, you're helping your community change lives or do things differently. So that's not a bad kind of work, to be honest. But is it just the fact of getting up to do something? Does it feel repetitive for you? Or do you just feel like actually I've tapped out of like, what's the meaning of all of this? Yeah. Like the way I'm kind of thinking about it is like work on one level is clearly instrumental in

letting us make enough money to survive but then if that was out of the equation right exactly but then i think then it's about exploring yourself and maybe i do have quite i feel like we've all been put on this earth for a reason okay and i think that there is just different skills or different things different tools we're not all supposed to be the same right some of us will be the creators some of us will be the directors and the leaders some people will be the innovators but

it's having the spaciousness to really tap into that which a lot of us don't

because we have to pay the bills and we have to do this and that but it's like what would I how might I leave my mark what is going to be my legacy I think we have to all think about that whether or not you are the caretaker in a school or CEO of big company what about the whole notion apparently was a thing more back in the day where it's like oh you know it's just a job I survive the nine to five so that I can enjoy the five to nine and work basically just being this thing that

I speak to my mum about this sometimes and when we're talking about this thing that I do of YouTube videos and podcasts and working on a book and the portfolio-y type of stuff, one thing that she will sometimes say is that the fun and games has to stop sometimes. Oh yeah, that's not work. You've got to become an adult sometimes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we're looking at cross-cultural and generational differences. I remember I'd be...

at home and I was living at home at that point and you know my dad would be like you haven't done any work all day and I've been on my laptop like you know working doing reports creating presentations but in his mind you went somewhere you did a solid day's job and then you came back and you had those stories to retell and here I was just like tapping away at the dining table on my laptop

And I think there's also for them and maybe speaking of my parents, it wasn't easy, the workplace. And I think and, you know, I think some things have changed and some things haven't. But, you know, there was certain pride in like doing good work and delivering great value. And, you know, my mom worked in nursing for a period of time. So that was like, you know, every day she could see how she was making a difference. Yeah.

So I think there's different notions and values we attribute to work. And I think generationally, we have to also make peace with the fact that they'll never see the work that you do in the same way. And that's okay. Yeah. I guess for us, compared to our parents' generation, work is more of that driver of, I want to feel as if my work is meaningful. Right. They weren't interested in creative fulfillment and all of this kind of stuff.

Got to pay the bills. Right. They were building and they were trying to provide for, you know, my generation and lay good foundations, things that they never had. And it was the, you went, you did this and you, you know, you came back. And although I think that was evolving for my mum because she then, you know, started her master's and went into different routes in her career and then also wanted to start her own entrepreneurial thing. So I think, you know, after a while she was then thinking, okay, actually,

I love this job, but there's other things that I'm being called to do. Yep. Which she's now experimenting with in her 70s. So it's like... Okay. Yeah.

- Okay. - Yeah, but maybe that I believe, I'll take the credit for it, but I do think that I have actually inspired her to think about how all these many things that she probably wanted to do or start businesses were all there. It's just like she just needed to see it, shine a light on it and just be brave to try it. - We had a team retreat a few weeks ago in Wales. It's like this nice location. I was having a bunch of sort of casual conversations with people in our team.

Basically asking, you know, like, if you didn't have to work, what would you be doing with your time? And like one of our team members mentioned that, you know, she's like singing. She's like sitting over there actually. And just has incredible singing voice. Like started making videos on like YouTube and Instagram and a little bit of streaming around singing. And her whole thing was that like, yeah, I'd really want to explore the singing thing. So my next question is like, oh, what's stopping you? And then there was some kind of barrier of like, oh, but like, I feel like I don't have the time with the day job. And I was like, oh, we could easily...

put you down to three days a week part-time, like what would be stopping you then? And it was almost like there was this emotional block or some sort of hurdle that's like sort of that step beyond the threshold of like, I'm actually going to follow that dream. And I imagine this is something you hear a lot, like how should people navigate that kind of...

potential leap. Yeah, we all have different blocks for lots of different reasons, right? So for whatever notion, there is a, talk about this in psychotherapy, that we all have a life script and it is generally a script that was embedded in you from about seven or so and then you are then perpetually living it or trying to run away from it.

And a lot of our actions sometimes, depending on our personality traits, our historical upbringing, these can deter you from taking decisions. I mean, you almost self-sabotage without knowing it. So things will bubble up, like, I don't think I'll be good enough. Or if I have that space, how would I use it? And so then, you know, we fall into procrastination.

zone or maybe we feel like we need to be perfect before we take any kind of leap so we spend a lot of time doing the prep and the planning and no leap no action and so it's really about dissecting what is getting in the way of me taking that leap is it that I personally I'm lacking the confidence am I lacking the connections is there a fear of feeling not good enough to do it

And, you know, especially now people are like, oh my God, there's thousands of people doing this, that and the other on Instagram. How do I make a dent in it? But if you don't try and start, you'll never know. But the key things that I see with people is there is definitely some sort of psychological barrier. There's the inner critic that's really loud about what can and can't be done. And generally we use time or money. Those are the biggest excuses. Or sometimes whether or not we have the support system is another one. Yeah.

And it's taking the notion to kind of unpack all of that and just think, actually, is this also something I really do want to do? Yeah. Because we can talk about a lot of things. Yeah. But fundamentally, if you were doing that day in, day out, does this hobby need to turn into something that you monetize? Hmm.

That's a good point. Yeah. Because often monetizing a hobby and making it into a job takes a lot of the joy out of it. Right. And so sometimes there's all that question of, okay, maybe I'm really good at singing and it just needs to stay there. Yeah. So I guess it's about really exploring the hidden assumptions behind the things. Like when you go and do something or when you try to pivot in a new direction, what's the automatic voice that comes up? Is it that I don't have enough money? I

don't know what I'm doing I don't have any connections I'm not going to be good enough okay so take one of them and then start to whittle it down well who says I'm not good enough like where is there the critique or the the proof that states what I can and can't do if I realize actually maybe you know I can't reach this particular range and I really want to move into opera maybe I need some training am I prepared to pay for that

Am I prepared to go in that journey? And, you know, through doing that yourself or with a partner, friend, whatever, start to realize like what are these self-imposed barriers and how do you break them down to move forwards? Yeah, that's good. I think the sorts of conversations I end up having with the coaches that we work with, where often, you know, my mom or someone else will ask me like, why are you paying so much money for this coach? Because they're just asking the right questions at the right time. And it's like, in a way, just having an hour to sit down and really think

Break down the assumptions that are holding me back from doing a thing that I want to do It's just like incredibly valuable Yeah, that can easily be done with a friend who just knows how to ask the right questions as well I guess we often don't make time for it when it comes to friends. We don't make time for it But also it's you know, it's hard sometimes when you know, your friends kind of know you they also know you in one particular way Perhaps also they don't they're fearful themselves of taking leaps And so we can only advise or coach somebody as far as we're willing to go. Yeah, true

And so it is just thinking, okay, if I speak to somebody outside of my realm and they can view my work through a different lens. And that's what I love. I love just asking my clients really provocative questions to help to push them out of that. Because that's what happens. Most of us just go round and round in spirals and get really stuck. And we either get really frustrated there and we absorb that as stress and it turns into something else. Or we do something about it.

Yeah. One of the questions that one of my coaches, Corey, often asks is like, what are the assumptions that you're making behind that statement? He'll often say something and he's from Texas. He'll put on his like Texan voice and be like, oh, interesting. What are the assumptions there?

What sort of questions do you like to ask with your clients? Oh loads. So sometimes I get them to interrogate their inner critic and to have a conversation with it so they either becomes a muse or somebody who is like dead against you doing this thing. And so I facilitate that conversation. I'm always curious to know, you know, to get them to look at the polarities of like, okay, this thing you say is not really good, but what happens if it's a real mega success?

And I think oftentimes what we don't talk about enough is that fear of success. Fear of success. How might that change me if I do really well in this? How might I move out of the comfort zone or the realm that I'm in now? How might people perceive me differently if I move into a different realm? And sometimes that ends up keeping us just paddling under...

a certain level because we're fearful to push ourselves too much. So that definitely gets a rise. I think I'm always curious to know, like, where did you first hear that thought? Oh, nice. Because that is us really picturing where have I internalized this narrative or where did I hear that or what was I seeing that then cultivated this mindset of I

I can't do that or that's beyond my reach or that's not possible for me. Where did you first hear that? Alrighty, just a quick interlude before we continue with the episode. Now, if you would like to train your mind for peace and purpose every day, you might like to check out the book Think Like a Monk by Jay Shetty. I read this, I think the first day that it came out, I think it was about two years ago.

and turned it into a book club video on my channel. That'll be linked down below if you wanna check out the book summary. But actually, to be honest, a far better way of getting a summary of the book is by using Shortform, who are very kindly sponsoring this episode. If you haven't heard by now, Shortform is the world's best service that summarizes books, but it's way more than just a summary of the book. So firstly, they have one pages that summarize the ideas of the book in a single page. Secondly, they have chapter by chapter summaries, like in detail,

break down the main ideas of each chapter, they also kind of build on those ideas. And so they'll include some interactive exercises in between some of the sections so you can engage with the book a little bit more. And if the author says something particularly controversial or something that another author has disagreed with, then they'll include a short form note that kind of builds on the ideas and that kind of says that, hey, hang on, there's an alternative viewpoint. There's a bit more nuance here than there is in the book.

It's not a replacement for reading the book itself, but for example, if you find yourself short on time, like I do a lot, then what I tend to do is that if I get a book recommendation and I'm not 100% sold on whether I want to read it, I will read the short form summary of it first. And if I like the summary or if I don't like the summary, or if I think that I want to read the book after reading the summary, then I'll read the book.

and then I'll highlight it on Kindle and do all the usual stuff. Short form is also really good for revisiting ideas from books that you've already read. I'm using it a ton these days. Firstly, for any time I need to make a book summary video for my YouTube channel, I will use short form because it's just a way easier way and it's actually very well structured. And often they structure the book in a slightly different way than the author does. So it's a way of exploring the same topic from two different angles. First angle being the one in the book itself.

and the second angle being sort of the way that short form condenses everything down. It's also really helpful for my own book research because there's dozens and dozens and dozens of books that I wanna mine for content for the stuff that I write, whether it's my books or blog posts or newsletters or YouTube videos. But instead of me having to read all of these books,

I can just get the main ideas from Shortform. And if I then do want to explore something a little bit more, at that point, I can get the book and explore just that specific point in a little bit more detail. If any of that sums up your street and you would like to get access to the world's best book summaries, then head over to shortform.com forward slash deep dive. And that URL will give you 20% off the annual premium subscription. So thank you very much, Shortform, for sponsoring this episode.

I'd love to talk a little bit about sort of the methodology of the book. So the title, Love It or Leave It, how to be happy at work. I mean, I'm in the process of working on a book right now and we're struggling to come up with a title. I just saw this title. I was like, oh, that's a really good title because it takes that, like, it's kind of obvious what the book is about, but it's also like, ooh, somewhat like counterintuitive advice, like love it or leave it, like,

You hear people say that, but when it comes to work, I imagine it would be very easy for people to sort of think that that's a particularly controversial title, that you either love your job or you leave it. Like, what about my bills? What about ABCDE? What about career progression? What about all these other things you're not taking into account? Yeah. So how do you... What's the process if someone's listening to this and maybe they've maybe got a job or they're a student on a track to a job that they may not fully enjoy? How do we...

How do we advise them? Love it or leave it. Yeah. So I was actually teaching this workshop for a while at The Guardian. Right. And I was writing another book which had a very different title. And it just wasn't sticking. And my agent was going on mat leave and she connected me to another agent. She's like, have a word with him. If not, we'll just pause it and come back to it. And he was like, yeah, this title is bullshit. I was like, oh. What was the old one?

It was something, I can't remember, I think it was like happiness gym or something. He was just like, no, it's bullshit. So I was like, what do you mean? I spent ages on this. And he was like, no, it's not you. He goes, it just doesn't speak to you. I feel like you're a little bit like provocative, controversial. I feel like we need something that's going to be a bit divisive and just get people thinking. And he's like, tell me what else you're doing. And I told him about his workshop. He's like, that's your book.

Because I can just see people in the airport going love it or leave it or you know on some like conundrum before the holiday like oh okay that's a great read.

And I guess for me, I was always, when I was working one-to-one with people, there was always this tug of war. Like, I just don't want to do that revolutionary step of just quitting and leaving. And I don't think we have to. I don't think it has to be this so black and white, all or nothing. I think there is a real pro to looking at both sides of the coin. And loving it is getting people to explore, how do I...

learn more about myself and my self-awareness to see how I'm interacting with the space, the people and thinking about the context of work and what could I do to make some tweaks there to see how that ripples out and changes. And, you know, I want people to really question how do you work effectively? Who do you work with? What type of work do you enjoy? Where are you flatlining throughout the day? And how can you start to just

tease out what is actually good about what you're doing. You know, we can complain a lot, but actually getting us to think grateful or, you know, hone in on what actually works and how can I start to tease out more of that? Yep.

And then the love it side, the leave it side was, okay, so if you have tried that and actually your job might be very toxic, it might be that you have seen some other opportunities that you'd love to leap into. Like this is how you leave it. And these are the precautions that you take when you're thinking about leaving it. So, you know, thinking about money, thinking about your connections, thinking about your wellbeing as you go through transitions. Is it a job or is it creating a portfolio career? Yeah.

And I love chapter 10 in the book because it is basically giving you that run through of how to create a portfolio career. Because I think a lot of people maybe are realizing I don't fit into this box and that's possibly why I want to leave. Yeah. So...

I guess for those who are in roles at the moment, you know, a lot of the exercises in the first one are broken down into people, job role and kind of sector. And I guess I've done a lot more work on my like, I guess, methodology around what I call the six happiness pillars for individuals to think about when it comes to work. So there is mind, body, soul. So like really thinking about how...

your role or work is affecting you in that area. Money magic, so really noticing like what are the things that I value? Is it recognition, money? How am I managing my money? And you know, if I was to go full time, am I okay with risk? And then we get people in place. So what are the types of people in the environments that really support me and that I feel I can flourish in? Systems and flow.

like the types of tasks when we break it down and get very granular purpose umbrella so you know who do I want to become and how is this work shaping me and then the last one is around your portfolio pie so like what is the kinds of things that you want to make your want your work to be made up of and so I think when I help people people

people that I support one-to-one or in groups, you know, really breaking down like what is going right in the job across some of those areas, what actually is more important to you and that you're not getting and then how might that fuel a move or a, you know, a sideways step in your career or...

different. What sort of patterns come up when you have these kind of conversations? The big ones, definitely purpose. Like I don't feel this job is guiding me towards purpose or feels like I'm making a bigger dent in what, you know, I want to. Am I just a cog in the wheel? I think there is definitely something around

The mind, body, soul connection, like how is this job affecting my psyche, my well-being? Like I don't feel confident when I leave this company every day or, you know, as I start my working day, there's trepidation and fear and anxiety. I don't want to live like that anymore. Those are the top two that I think are...

really and then it's just a case of I would say third would probably be how do I fuse all the different things that I'm good at yeah because I guess like I've done a bunch of digging into sort of management literature and around the idea that when people are using their strengths at work every day that looks like profoundly

makes everything just feel way more fun and better and nice yeah but it's strengths in the way that I think strengths can sometimes be misconstrued with people thinking just because I am great at organizing things doesn't mean that I constantly want to do that so I think there's a fine balance between strengths that you're competent in and strengths that actually energize you okay and finding that sweet spot in the middle between the things that you love doing that you actually get joy out of versus what people tell you you're good at and therefore you get pushed into a cycle of doing that

a bunch of questions. So on the mind, body, soul front, what sort of questions should you be looking, asking yourself kind of before the day, after the work day to sort of assess your level of mind, body, soul and leanness in work? Yeah,

Yeah. You know, what am I excited to tackle today when I think about work? How do I feel throughout my body throughout the working day? So where are you noticing stress or tension? When you think about your intentions, like how am I, something that I support my clients to do is think intentionally, how am I stepping into my day? Like what are the kinds of attitudes, behaviors that I'd like to continue to be consistent with? And where do I get knocked off?

Or where do I feel that my triggers or my insecurities flare up and make me move in a different direction? Also, like, what's the level of stress throughout your working day? Is this stuff that, is it the stress that Kelly McGonnell talks about that is there to challenge you and push you further? Or is it actually grinding you down and making you more anxious? Mm-hmm.

And then as you wind down for the day, you know, really thinking about what worked well throughout the day, what would I like to, you know, keep doing more of? Am I making time to be present, to pause, to eat, to fuel my body, you know, because sometimes we just run on adrenaline and we're not built for that. Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing that happens with doctors a lot where it's like you're in the middle of a shift and it's very easy to just forget lunch. But like the good seniors are the ones that are like, no, like,

take a lunch break right now and you need it. Our brain needs the fuel to perform, right? And yet we think that even our phones need charging. So we have to really be mindful about the time that we take to just monitor what's going on with our body and how we're reacting to different environments and whether or not we're giving it the nourishment it needs to take us to the next level. Yeah. On the purpose front, so I guess for something like, again, like being a nurse or being a doctor, the purpose behind it is, I feel often quite clear, it's like I'm helping this person in front of me.

But a lot of jobs are more removed from what feels like direct impact. Like I've got a bunch of friends in management consulting who are like, yeah, I'm kind of working for this big corporation and making PowerPoint slides for them. And it's like they really struggle with this question of purpose. It's like, how the hell do you connect that to a wider purpose? Have you kind of found any patterns with that sort of thing? Yeah, it's funny because I think that was my original issue when I was in advertising. I was wondering...

I couldn't see the direct link between my work and then some digital campaign on some sugary cereal. How is that really affecting the kid? I think I was really craving to see the direct impact and to work more closely with one-to-one people. I think there's something about noticing the company that you work for and whether or not you can see what you're creating as being, supporting the wider goal or the wider community.

And then also asking yourself the question, I had this with a client recently, I was like, does your work need to be that purpose for you? Like, can you find it outside of work? Is that something actually, if this work actually just really fuels the life that you set up for yourself and what you need to do, but actually you're really interested in, you know, coaching young startups around IP law, like, could

Could that not be something that you do on the weekends and the evening that you have, you know, your mentoring? So I think sometimes we have to be mindful to try to force everything into this job. And much like your partner, there can't be everything. You will have friends who will provide different things. You'll have, you know, and maybe the core qualities that you look for in your partner is what sustains you and everything else holds you into place. Yeah.

And so in a way, provided that work has the core qualities that you're looking for, it doesn't necessarily need to tick all of the boxes. It might not need to. For some people, it might be actually it's a non-negotiable and then they're in the wrong business. So then the management consultancy might not be for them and they need to make peace with, I need to do a clean sweep and move elsewhere. Or for somebody else, it might be like, actually, you know, I'm making these PowerPoints. I'm interested in what I'm doing, but fundamentally, I love...

you know, painting schools or build or like thinking about how I can work with old people and, you know, think about that. And maybe that's something that I do consistently out or I downsize and do three days a week and two days I'm volunteering at an old people's home. Like,

there are ways around that we can do that. It's just also what we're willing to let go of because we cannot have both. Yeah. And I guess it's about figuring out sort of that self-awareness to figure out for yourself what is the thing that actually matters. Yeah. And what is the thing that you can sort of maybe in an ideal world, you would take all these boxes and work. But if you had to, which of them would you want to give up? And also like maybe you ask, you do a little ask a friend survey. There's one in the book where

that you can, you know, what is it that I'm really good at that you come to me for? When you think about, I need help with X. Oh my God, Ali's the right person for that. You know, sometimes we aren't aware of our brilliance and things that we take for granted, skills that we just, you know, just haphazardly throw away. But actually to someone else, that's a really pivotal thing that you provide for them. Where does money come into this? In the sense that anyone you ask will say, will feel like they probably don't have enough money. And...

you know, there's that whole thing around, you know, if you ask people how much money they need to be happy, they always say two to three times as much as they currently have. And, you know, I've spoken to entrepreneurs who have got like 10 million in the bank who are like, yeah, you know, I think I'll be fine once I've got 25 million. When it comes to navigating a career, I guess, again, thinking back to conversations I've had with a bunch of my friends, it's like, oh, you know, I'm currently working at McKinsey and it's like, oh, you know, the next bonus is just around the corner.

It's a little carrot and stick, isn't it? And it feels like, oh, like once I get the next bonus at that point, oh, well, then the next one's just six months around the corner. So I might as well stick it out. And in a way, there is almost this sort of capitalist drive to accumulate more and more.

And I guess we can always, you know, and this is the thing that I really took away from the four-hour work week around, we always think that like the life that we want requires more money than we currently have. But like, how do you go about navigating the money thing? Because I imagine that's something that comes up a lot with people. Yeah. I don't know. I feel like there's been a shift through the past. Well,

Two things. I think I gave a talk recently and, you know, he said one of the stats that came up when I did a lot of surveys, I do like, you know, happiness health checks in companies and the surveys with the employees and, you know, they were saying that actually the top five things for them were, can I connect here? Do I feel safe here? Do I have power here? Can I see like progression? And I think, do I have friends?

And he was just like, that all sounds very nice. But if you are in Latin America or whatever, like...

money is definitely up there and I think there is a question around you know where we are in our cycle of wealth or development and you know money is there to build your Maslow's right you need your your core things and there are different countries around the world where people are still striving towards that and so now to like tap out because of your self-actualized you don't need the money anymore sounds like flippant yeah but I think we also have to realize that we've

lived through a pandemic and for some people businesses were lost maids incomes were changed

And in some ways we were realizing actually what else do we need in life? If your health is at stake or you're losing family and friends or you cannot connect with people that you care about, that becomes more vital. And so it's a question of like, what do I actually need to live off? There's a question I literally just had at lunch and we're all like asking ourselves a question. You know, a friend who, like I said, shut her business. She's like, just made me realize actually I can do pretty good.

on not that much. And I can really take some space to think about what might be next and actually it's then just questioning what's necessary. So accommodation, family and friends, like what is, what's your level of like going out, entertainment?

are you what are you willing to cut what is actually a necessity for your life i think everyone's going to be very different but it is hard knowing that cutoff point and that driving to excess and it's like what am i sacrificing to achieve that excess yeah yeah and i think there's a there's also an element of like when i speak to people about this and when i think about it for myself it's like this thing of like oh you know i've got to save enough money for the future

And I've got a friend who was, again, in management consulting, but was thinking of quitting her job. But she was like, "Yeah, you know, if I stay here for another five years, they'll pay to send my kids to private school."

And it's like five years. I mean, yeah. But then she was laughing about it. She was like, I'm not even in a relationship. Like, why am I worried about my kids five years later? And I think this is the thing though, right? There's so much the maps, the map of where we're supposed to go has been laid out. Or you see this so much on Instagram, all these different lives. And it's like, actually, like whose life am I trying to live? And in that sense, you know, yes, she hasn't found her partner yet. But if that is really...

it's a question of what is really important if it is really important that her kids go to private school and get that kind of education then in some cases yeah she does need to think about how do i create that roadmap but actually if you're just doing that because it feels like the done thing to do then five years that's kind of big noose around your neck to stay somewhere yeah and i think it's similar to like oh you know if i if i stay at this company for x number of years then and i save 10 then i'll be able to afford a deposit on a house then i'll become a homeowner

And that's a big thing though, right? Because a lot of people do feel like not secure enough in where they're living. So if your base is really important, I think it goes back to our question on what's in your Maslow. And if the base is really important, then yeah, it might mean sticking out this particular role of being very diligent about what you're saving. Or if you're realizing that you're,

the work that you're in isn't paying enough, shifting somewhere. Because if getting a house is something that helps you feel grounded, then great. If it's not and you're happy renting, then why not take some more risk? Yeah, I guess kind of pulling the strings together, it sounds like a big part of this is

genuinely just sitting down and figuring out like what are my priorities what are the things I actually care about and then figuring out like we don't we don't take the time to do that it's such an unusual thing to do to actually just sit down for an hour and think what do I actually care about yeah I mean it's like because before you know it like another I mean we're halfway over halfway through the year right and we've already had two years in the pandemic and you know we're starting another year soon and it's just time will fly yeah and you're in great health and

you have people around you so like why don't you actually take some time some considered time to just ask that question and keep asking that question why do I want to do this yeah why am I curious about this and why do I keep telling myself I can't do it

And just think, you know, where do I want to be a year from now? I was listening to this great podcast a couple of days ago and it was just like, you know, people forget that it is that consistency that you just put in for a couple of months, six months, that then really changes the trajectory of the next couple of years. But we don't want to be consistent. It's not fun to be consistent. We get distracted. And, you know, we are manipulated to be distracted. We are manipulated to consume, to, like...

push ourselves to distract ourselves with music and entertainment and off your life course and it is taking that time to be silent and still which is difficult yeah I found that so like basically all of this journal is me just sort of trying to answer the question of what do I actually want to do with my life and like what's important to me and like what do I value and

But why are you not, when you think about on one hand was like the dream thing that you wanted to do and then it disappeared tomorrow. How would you feel about it? Like, do you have any inkling of what the idea is that you want to do or where you want to progress? I don't know. I think we can, you know, I think also a big problem is we can intellectualize a lot. So,

So we can write and we can journal and do all the other things. But like you have to really feel it in you and think about like if this one thing that I really wanted to do was removed from the table tomorrow, like how would I feel about that? I don't think I've ever thought about the answer to that question. So I've been thinking a lot around like what do I actually want to do? And the way I'm tackling that question is let's say I had 100 million in the bank. And it's like at that point, surely I don't need to try and strive for money. But do you need 100 million really?

No, probably not, which then is the thing that I come to later. But it's more like, let's just pick a completely absurd number to just put the money thing completely aside.

what is like, how would I find, how would I want to spend my time? And I usually kind of land out, well, I'd want to do podcasts. I'd want to write my book and I'd want to make YouTube videos occasionally about cool stuff that I read. So that's what you're doing now. And that's what I'm doing now. And I'm like, I don't need a hundred million in the back to be able to do that. So this life is good. So then is it question of, am I bored with this? Ooh, that's a good question. Am I bored with this? I don't think I am. Okay. I think the thing that I worry about is,

Does this have a long-term future? And like when I'm 65 years old, will I still be like, you know? What's your human design?

What does that mean? Do you know? So there's lots of different profiles that you can do. And your human design profile is another one, kind of like wealth dynamics and all these different things. And it's like, how are you meant to show up in the world? And so there's different profiles. It's like the generator, the manifestor, the manifesting generator, the projector and the reflector. So yeah, do a quick test now. Myhumandesign.com. Yeah.

And it basically just requires your date of birth, name and where you were born. And then it basically gives you insight into how you're actually programmed and wired to be. Some people, like I'm a manifesting generator and for a long time I am meant to do lots of different things and I am meant to show, sounds a bit pompous, but like you are meant to show the world different ways of being.

Okay. But you, I think the big thing with manifesting generators is that they need to make peace with the fact that they're never going to follow a certain line. Yeah. And when people say, why did you quit that thing or why are you not doing that thing anymore? Yep. It's okay because they've done what they needed to do and they're ready to move on. There are other people who need to consistently do one thing really well.

And so it might be in your case that actually there are multiple variations of how you're supposed to show up, but you're not freeing yourself or allowing yourself to let go of one thing to try something new. Wait, are we talking about the thing where you insert your date of birth and your time of birth? Yes, it sounds a bit boohoo, but it is just so it's really interesting to see because it has changed the game in terms of the way that people are allowed to freely express themselves.

The same way we've been doing profile testing for ages, right? You've got Myers-Briggs, all of those psychometric tests. I think these ones are a little bit more grounded. Whoa.

What are you? I am a projector. Interesting. What the hell does that mean? So a projector is somebody, people are supposed to come to you for advice. Yeah, they do. Right, so you are in your right zone and you do require lots of rest. So there might be a level of burnout, perhaps that's causing you to rethink where you are. That's fair, yeah. And I think there is a place of also not knowing how valuable you are in the system. Yeah.

in terms of the knowledge that you hold. Definitely read into it. That sounds pretty spot on. Wait, where does this come from? It sounds like very astrology woo-woo type of things. It is. I'm a lover of the woo and the science. And it's basically looking at astrology, kind of just so many like Eastern Western philosophy. Like it's just, it's a big amalgamation of that. And Gene Keys is also another route.

Gene Keys. What are those? That's for a separate podcast. Gene Keys. Yeah. Gene and then Keys. Oh, okay. Figuring out what your key is in terms of, again, how you're supposed to show up in the world. Oh, wow. Okay. But then, you know, you could also do things like Wealth Dynamics, which... What's Wealth Dynamics? Wealth Dynamics is another way at looking at how you are... What's your entrepreneurial streak? Okay. Okay.

And so there are some people who are really trying to be creators or innovators and actually they are the deal makers of the world and they're supposed to just be connectors and to fuel or make money through connections. There are people who are supposed to be supporters. I'm one of those that are people orientated, nurturing people, but I'm not generally going to be. It breaks down different businesses when you think of like Sheryl Sandberg and the way that she operates with Mark Zuckerberg. That's a

support a relationship it's thinking about the roles that you're playing and whether or not actually you're wearing the right coat so to speak that sounds interesting I mean I'm going to take this test but I have to pay $97 for it yes that one definitely needs I'm sure it'll be worth worthwhile to get some clarity on stuff so it sounds like

You figure out this is this design thing is so interesting. Yeah, I mean I feel like when you go down the rabbit hole you'll start to realize that there are certain ways that you're being that

you feel I shouldn't be this way but actually that's just the way that you're driven and the minute that you lean into it and accept it so that's what for me when I accept it actually the fact that I like to do lots of different things it's not a bad thing and therefore I have to give myself the freedom and the permission that's another thing as well when people don't follow their dreams we don't often give ourselves permission

to try things because we either risk the failure too much or we just don't see the opportunity costs or we allow the opportunity costs to deter us from making a decision but I guess if you've done one of these things and you're like oh yeah I really vibe with this idea of being a projector or whatever then in a way it sort of gives you permission to lean into that a little bit more yeah and see yeah

It's the same with wealth dynamics. The minute I stopped fighting and realizing that actually I do fundamentally love supporting people, I was like, oh, actually, this comes really easy. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like the science part of me is trying to figure out how the hell does this work? But I guess part of it is even if it's not based on kind of star alignment and stuff, it's like if you hear a description of something and you think, oh, wow, that actually does really sound like me. At that point, in a way,

Just having that label, like the whole 16 personalities, ENTJ type stuff is like, oh. Yeah, but I flip between a couple of those. So I'm just like, I mean, there's still INF, but it's, I'm an INFJ and P. I flip between the two. Oh yeah, no, even if I put the right time zone in, I'm still a projector. The C are people who can see a better, more efficient or upgraded approach to a specific thing and are here to share that with others.

being invited? Yeah, so when you're a projector, you're not normally just offering advice. They're generally, when you are, when someone says, oh, Ali, I'd really like your help on X, that's when you're in your flow, when someone has seen your work

level of expertise and calls that in. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I feel like if I, if I'm trying to sort of shove advice down people's throat and then asking for it, it's like, it doesn't go anywhere. And it's just like, this is a bit pointless. If someone asked me for advice, suddenly it's like, all right, let's get tucked in. Yeah. Whereas like, I think there's definitely, so I know when I'm manifesting generator, I'm supposed to be in a space where people ask me more yes and no questions. And if I can feel into how it feels, um,

or I'm saying yes to that wholeheartedly, that always plans out more because I've always known in the past when I've said yes to something that I meant no to, it hasn't worked. What's your take on the whole manifesting stuff?

I mean, I love both. I think that they're... All right, so I am not just like a, let's do affirmations. I mean, it's going to be like, okay. I feel like I have definitely taken some time to really understand the neuroscience behind it as well and how our brain really does...

evolve to shape and take on the different ways we think and what we continue to think. I love listening to subliminals and things like that to look at how, I mean, I'm massively interested in neuroaesthetics, which is just how our brain and body responds to our architecture, creativity, but also what music does to the mind. And when you mix subliminals and affirmations or different beats to how that changes your brain to think differently.

and how that then generates new synaptic pathways for you to think differently about stuff. So I love the scientific approach to manifesting and the ways that we can change. I'm not just the fluffy,

print out my affirmations. That works, but I think that there's a lot around how we can really, you know, look at Joe Dispenza's kind of stuff, you know, thinking about the way that we meditate, the way that we, what we consume, how that shapes your vision, your pathway. I'm in the process of reading The Source by Tara Swart. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is, yeah, the neuroscience behind manifestation-y type stuff. Yeah. I'm like, oh, wow, this actually sounds pretty legit because previously I tried reading The Secret and I was like, oh, come on. Like, you know,

imagining your cancer is cured and your cancer is cured clearly BS but like that kind of stuff from a more sciencey perspective like really vibed with me

And I then started, I wrote down a bunch of affirmations, which I visit occasionally and I do genuinely find them helpful. But I haven't yet tried the whole vision boarding or whatever else comes with the package of trying to manifest your goal or your ideal life. I think it's a mixture of things for people, right? You have to think about how do I normally learn? So do I learn through visuals? Am I somebody who needs to write it down? Do I need to actually record some of these manifestations and just have them playing to me consistently? Yeah.

I think it's learning. So I definitely need to write stuff down. I also need to see it visually more consistently. But I think I have to be, it is creating the space to think, am I really aligned to this thing or is this what I think I should be doing? Am I really aligned or is this what I think I should be doing? Yeah. Because sometimes when you write down things that you should be doing, that you're not aligned to it in the first place and no amount of repetition or consistency is never going to, it's always going to be evading you. Yeah.

So I guess it's sort of like, yeah, because I guess, you know, in the, in the business context, you know, sometimes there's a decision to be made, but it's like, I kind of feel a bit weird about it and I feel like I'm not fully aligned with it. But then I speak to some people and they're like, no, it's probably the right decision. And I'm never quite sure how to weigh up the sort of the gut feeling where I feel about a decision versus like being talked into it by someone who seems to know what they're talking about. But then that's, that's you not tapping into the trust, your inner wisdom. Yeah.

because i think we do a lot of bypassing of what our intuition like how we make decisions anyway are we more brain the heart guts and it's thinking about how do i consistently make decisions and if i always think about things from an intellectual perspective you're clearly dumbing down your other kind of your body has what's called uh pro proprietor i can never say it properly but your body has innate wisdom and it will try to show you

you're on the right track or you're moving in the right way but we have distracted ourselves so much that we don't listen to it. So it's thinking about, you know, does the hair on my neck stand up when I think about this particular decision? Do I get stomach growl, butterflies?

where is the wisdom that would actually guide me towards making a better decision versus just going with what somebody else's agenda for the next direction for me is. Because they might have your best interests at heart, but equally, they might not know the full story. They might be telling you what you want to hear. You just never know. So it's like, how do I develop my own steering rod? What's the science behind the gut...

hot stuff are you familiar with it because because yeah so we will we make like there is that connected system in terms of how we make decisions right so some people are naturally um it will just be from the cognitive space and then there are other people who are like actually if i get a heartfelt like this is it then that's the way and they will not listen to anything cognitive and then there are others who are like i just know intuitively in my gut that this is the right way forwards and they always make decisions from the gut

So it's noticing what's my default practice and how could I train myself to think differently? Or actually, if I know that I'm always making gut impulsive decisions and they're not quite right, then yes, having some accountability would be useful to steer me in a different direction. Because when was the last time you made a solid decision about your business without asking for any advice and it's turned out correctly? Because that's another thing. When we don't trust ourselves to make decisions, we generally keep defaulting it

Yeah, that's a good point. I feel like I often feel like, especially as the business has grown and the team has grown, I feel like out of my depth in terms of, oh, we've got this team of 18 people now. Like, what the hell do I know about managing a team? Therefore, let me lean on other people's advice or reading a thing that I read in a book and kind of really indexing hard on that. And people in the team will joke that, oh, crap, Ali's reading another business book. Now we're going to have a whole change of direction because he's just read something new that seems to vibe with him. Whereas I don't think...

I at all just think, what do I actually want to do in this situation? And I always kind of assume that someone else has the knowledge. I guess because from a kind of science-y medical background as well, especially it's like, obviously as a junior doctor, I know. But how much time are you using? How much longer are you going to use that as a stick to beat yourself with? Yeah. Because fundamentally, yes, that was your path where you started out. And there's so much transferable skills from the science and medical field that you're leaning into now. But also you've built this business where,

It's profitable. Clearly you know what you're doing in this phase. And I think we don't take enough...

credit for what is working where we have made decisions what has been successful yeah and we keep kind of saying actually I used to be this and therefore that person doesn't know how to do this situation yeah therefore I need to read a book and get advice and then maybe do a thing that doesn't quite feel right but this person probably knows what they're talking about this is what I should be doing at this stage of the business or whatever and clearly I'm still out of my depth but the more you tell yourself that the more it's a self-fulfilling prophecy yeah you will always feel out of your depth yeah that's so true yeah

Yeah, I'm just thinking about kind of a bunch of business themed stuff that I've been thinking about in the last like week or two. I just think how I often just really second guess. Like I kind of know what the thing I want to do is, but I always think, oh no, that can't possibly be right. But why not? Okay, I guess, okay, so this is an interesting breakdown. I guess part of it is, okay, so I tend to be quite like a fast mover with things. It's like if I have an idea, I'm like, all right, cool, let's just do the thing.

And but then traditional business advice is that, yes, that works when you're a team of one or two people. But when you have a team of that's bigger, you then necessarily have to slow down. You have to spend time getting people up to speed and like building the systems and the processes and all the stuff.

And there's something about that that feels super frustrating because it's like, ugh, I just want to move faster. And I just want us to have that kind of scrappy startup mentality that we had like two years ago. But you're not a startup anymore. Yeah, exactly. So that's one area in which there's this sort of me wanting to go in a particular direction at a particular speed. Okay. But like very reasonably, people point out that actually, maybe you've got to slow down. And so that's one of those areas in which I find there's this constant tension between the way I want to do things and the way I would do things by default.

versus the way you're supposed to do things once you're no longer a startup, once you're a team of like 15, 20 people. And I wonder if part of that is you needing to exercise your creativity more

maybe elsewhere beyond this or in something where you feel like you can try and break something but not necessarily do it in the business. Perhaps there is an energy that needs to be outsourced elsewhere versus disrupting what's going on in the business or looking at how you do create moments for innovation in the way that you are working but what might that look like with minimal disruption? Like what could we hack

and trial and test before it becomes embedded as a new way of being. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah. I think one thing that like we, we've been sort of seriously thinking about is like before we were sort of based on kind of quarterly planning is like, you know, let's do things in a 90 day segments. Sprints. Yeah. Yeah. But then that's always felt like super, super slow. So now one, one idea, I'm just like,

if we could just do six week sprints rather than 12 week sprints. So just try it with one thing versus like turning the whole engine or the car in a completely different direction because otherwise, yeah, you do force your team to burn out and they also then get into a place where I don't know, like what we're trying like next. So then it's the lack of trust in you and your leadership. Okay.

So I guess there is that level of like, listen to your gut, but like, don't obviously do something. Does it need to be action though? I think maybe also, I don't know if you have a COO, but like that bouncing of ideas around, okay, this is what I want to explore. Okay. Is that from my, is it from an ego place? Is it for, could it genuinely benefit the people in the business? Why does this need to be executed now? Could it wait three months?

And what could I try outside of this that perhaps would be a useful way for me to discharge that energy? - And I guess like, yeah, how can we run the experiment in like a small way that doesn't necessarily disrupt the whole business? - Yeah, 100%. - But just sees how things go with-- - Just see how it goes and then you know, you get people involved and then they think actually we've co-created this change and we're on board with it versus it being something that you've just forced, right, this is how we're doing things, scrap that whole thing we've just been working on for six months, we're doing it this way.

You know, you mentioned burnout. What do the sort of signs and symptoms of burnout look like with the people that you you coach through career? I think there's different stages. So I think we'll start off in that place of, you know, we all want to do well. If you're driven, you will want to kind of like excel. But then it moves into that state where.

It's the progression or the movement or the doing is then outweighing just looking after your general self. And other people are starting to notice that in you, but you're not ready to accept it or acknowledge it yet. There's that cycle of just general irritability with other people. Maybe you are...

frustrated with lack of pace the way that people are doing things you're starting to nitpick and depending on how you exhibit stress some people go into that kind of fight mode where they're a little bit more micromanaging over analytical and then other people will generally slow down so they might actually completely become desensitized lean back very immobile or move into people pleasing

And so I think when we get into that point as well, we then can suffer from quite a lot of stomach issues, gastrointestinal kind of problems. That's when it's often been the stress has been underlying in the body for quite a while. And then lots more psychological concerns around loneliness or just, you know, that fear of...

not being good enough and then what does that lead to in terms of who am I and what's my place and do people will people miss me like it can spiral so I think we can go through lots of different stages and it's just noticing how do I catch myself when I've been pushing too hard or doing too much and actually not listening to those that can notice these signs before I have perhaps yeah and so if we find ourselves like catching those kind of early warning signs what are the things that we can do to kind of reverse things or remedy things

So I think it's definitely noticing like how are you triggered around stress? Like what is causing you to feel out of sorts or to be irritable? You know, some people also have more physical symptoms. So you might be noticing actually if I've constantly got colds and I'm run down or my joints are aching or, you know, like how do we take a moment and pause and think actually what might have been going on in the way that I'm eating?

or the way that I could slow, what can I slow down? What can I start to delegate, let go of? Some people it might be through memory loss. So what am I filling my brain with? So a lot of people suffer from cognitive symptoms that are a bit more about forgetfulness or feeling massively overwhelmed all the time. And what could you do to create some more white space in your calendar?

So moving, I think sometimes we try to move from like deep attention tasks, you know, the stuff that could, we can get through in 90 minutes and like blitz on that. And then we have more of the kind of open attention stuff, which is emails and stuff like that. But where's the white space in between that, the time to just do nothing, maybe just to go into nature, just to,

pause for a second to eat to just be I don't think there's enough of that in the calendar for many people I think there's also something about the arts you know just spent a year doing a therapeutic arts and educational program and it's looking at how through the art making process our brain changes and kind of helps us to problem solve differently to disassociate from stress and that could also just be through fitness it could be through going to see something it

creative but that has the power to help us to relax and to loosen tension and stress I think there's also you know just keeping a general diary of how things have been going and maybe just retrospectively just thinking actually how did I tackle last week and why have I found myself in a position where I'm burnt out oh am I

you know, doing too much? Was I people pleasing and taking on too many things? How can I kind of reframe how I might show up this week differently? Yeah, I feel like kind of when I feel those warning signs in myself of like sort of that feeling of like, oh, I kind of can't be bothered to do this. It's often because

there's like no white space in the calendar. It's like going from one thing to another thing to another thing. One thing overruns is like, oh shit, I'm running late for the other thing. And then there's that like anxiety that builds up that I'm just never on time. I'm never doing enough. I'm not there for people. You know, all of that narrative then starts to accumulate. That often leads me to think, oh, you know, is this really the right thing? Like, do I really want to be doing this business? Do I really want to be doing this YouTube channel? And actually it's not. That's why I asked you if you were just bored. Because sometimes when we get to this place of,

boredom or there is some sort of tension or perhaps we are burnt out everything just looks like it's catastrophic you know it's that like you know oh god I just wish this thing would burn to the ground I'm over it and you know especially women when we go through cycles there will be those periods in the month where it's just like actually this is too much I'm not interested in next week you're like oh my god this is the best thing in

world so it's like you know honoring the cycle and our hormones and the way that we're built so just you know questioning am I done with the way that I'm working or am I actually just tired

and a break would help me have some perspective and to step back and think, okay, what might I do differently as I reenter? - Yeah, I was having a call with one of our team members earlier today and we were talking about like YouTube channel and various issues with that stuff. And I was like, what do you think I should do? And he was like, honestly, I think you need to take a break for a month and just spend some time alone in nature and like, just like think.

And I was like, that's a pretty good shout. But would you do that though? Probably not. Because I'd be like, oh, but there's all this other stuff that I have to do and all that jazz. It's a vicious cycle because if you don't take that, you're then just going to produce content for the sake of producing content which your heart and soul won't really be in. So it's like the break...

Maybe it's not a month. Maybe the month in itself feels like, whoa, that's too much. Could I start with a couple of days or a week of just like not thinking about it? And maybe I go back to just doing one or two episodes a week versus trying to bash out 20 or whatever. Yeah, that's a good point. I do have one of these sort of retreat type things booked for like in August some.

time where you like to put your phone away for three days live in a cabin in the woods kind of vibes but even then I was like I really want to do this thing I was like there's no space in the calendar until like four months down the line and I was thinking I was kind of thinking hmm it feels like there's something off if that that's what's going on but I guess I just need to sort of explore it with with me and the team to figure out like hmm

There's got to be some time for like recharging. Yeah, there has to be. You know, Jerry Colin talks about this. His website is reboot.io and he talks a lot about, he does podcasts with different CEOs and founders. And, you know, he talks about his annual retreat

and that time and solace to just really reset, recharge, because otherwise he's no good to the people he's working with. - Yeah, I should really make time to do one of these things. That would be quite handy. I'd love to talk a little bit about the idea, so we sort of vaguely touched on this briefly, but this idea of kind of following your passions.

So when it comes to careers, I feel like there's sort of been a bit of a sine wave in terms of like people's sort of sentiment about this, where I feel like back in the day was very much like pick the thing you're passionate about and follow the passion. And then through the rise of like Cal Newport's book, So Good They Can't Ignore You, which is all about basically, oh, the passion thing is myth. Like my passion is to play football, but I'm not going to make a living playing football realistically. Therefore, find something that's

and just become really good at it. And then you'll naturally become passionate about the things that you're good at. But then there's still some people that are like, oh, but like, you've got to fundamentally have some level of passion about it. What's your take on the whole like,

finding out the thing you're passionate about and making that the thing that you do for work? I feel like purpose has to go through a process of creating and distilling and experimenting. I think it's not about... You know, there's lots of things that I'm passionate about. You know, I love cooking. I love, you know, doing all these things. But can I see myself doing that day to day? You know? Yeah. No. So I think there's a question. Like, do I want to be a chef? No. But I think there's a question of...

There's lots of things that we are tempted to try or that we're curious about, but we don't actually, again, give ourselves permission to experiment. Just really like a scientific experiment. Could I pick three things that I'm curious about to see exactly what spectrum of passion I sit on with this thing? So it might be that you're a photographer. Hmm.

Or you're curious about architecture or maybe you're curious about making shoes or making clothes. And so it's about, okay, could I give myself a 90 day sprint to really think about interviewing somebody who is an architect?

Speaking to somebody who curates an exhibition or is a photographer that teaches under 14s how to use vintage cameras. I think if we don't really break down all of those different avenues or spend some time understanding it, we can't then make a critical decision about what it is that you say you're passionate about. We all have these things that we'd love to do.

But fundamentally, when you get into the nitty gritty, it might be that actually I love photography, but I don't really want to take photos of people. I probably want to look at the technical side of, you know, what is a great photo. Maybe I love teaching. And so perhaps I want to teach about photography, but I don't need to be, you know, running my own shows or having an exhibition somewhere. Yeah. But you won't know that until you try. Yeah. And so I think.

part of the purpose journey is experimenting and distilling and actually just, do you know what? I thought I really love this thing, but I bloody hate the people that it attracts or it's going to be a lot of money and maybe that's not where I want to spend my funds or fundamentally, I am actually no good at this thing. So I need to let go of it. But I think we don't get there. I think we want to do this full evolutionary like,

tomorrow I am gonna be a podcaster. And you start to do it and then you realize actually I don't wanna interview people, I kinda wanna do solo things. But you don't know until you try. And I think every time I invite my clients to think okay let's experiment with this, let's play,

and see at different opposite ends of the spectrum you know one lady she's like oh my god I saw I found some people on LinkedIn I've got coffees with them to interview them and then I had a chat with one person and she's like actually 80% of the job is this and she's like I just don't want to do that and I really thought that the way this job was sold actually if I'm spending 80% of my time doing that I don't think I want it yeah so I don't want to move in that direction so

I think there's that process of trial and error peeling away. Like, how do I show up doing this thing? And do I need to be under the weight of this thing has to carry me for the next 5, 10, 20 years until I'm 60? No.

It could actually be that you're a serial specialist and you spend five years doing that thing. And then you put it to bed and it's five years doing something else. I think we have to let go of these rules and this kind of like prescription around what it needs to look like. And again, it comes back to the fundamentals. What do I need to live off? What are the basic things that I really need to care about? And then how do I springboard off there? I'd love to talk more about this sort of purpose question in the sense of like,

I feel like there is a balance between actively looking for the purpose in the thing that you happen to be doing versus like looking internally to find out what sort of purpose you want to have in the world and then finding a thing that does that. If that makes sense.

So you're saying that it's the either active searching for something and then hoping that it then is part of your mission or who you're supposed to be versus thinking about how you want to affect change on the planet and then doing that. Is that what you mean? Yeah, no, I guess like, let's say if you've got a job right now, then in one, like, you know, there's all this stuff around how finding purpose in the thing that sort of,

feeling like you're having that your work is aligned with your purpose or something like that contributes to this feeling of things being energizing and more sustainable and more enjoyable. But to what extent is that a case of, hey, this is the job I've got. Let me try my best to figure out where the purpose is. Let's love it or leave it, right? I think it's that thing of, is this job that I'm doing, is there some element or grain that I...

can find purposeful or that is that where you're going yes yeah exactly right versus the thing of like i need to i need to even create purpose for myself kind of vibes i mean i think this is this is the basis of what i want to get i get people to think about in the book is like what kernels or seeds of joy purpose alignment are you finding in this existing role hmm

Because, you know, a lot of the time we want to jump from the frying pan into another fire thinking that purpose is over there. Purpose looks like this. And without any prior knowledge or insight or whatever, but and realizing that actually there's a good thing that we have here. And maybe it does create the spaciousness for other things to come up into my life that feel purposeful. I think it's a fine line, isn't it, between the constant chasing for purpose versus...

sitting with and knowing like you know Ramit Sethi calls this he talks about the different phases of your career you know are we am I in that growing phase do I want more of the lifestyle phase or actually am I kind of

What's the last one? I think he talks about growing is where you're going to be head down to the grind and you want to kind of keep building the skills and actually purpose doesn't matter then. And in the lifestyle part of your life or whether or not you're moving into that, it is about actually I want to be able to pick up my kids and I want to be able to volunteer. And, you know, and then the other one is maybe I just want to make a complete career pivot that feels more aligned to something I'm socially engaged with.

So it's noticing maybe where you are in your journey too. I think that's also a really powerful point. Yeah. Yeah. I think for me, the question of purpose, it almost feels like once I've,

I feel like, okay, cool, I've got this. Like, this is good, you know, for the point of the business is to kind of help people live their best lives. And the way we do that is through YouTube videos and podcasts and book and all that kind of stuff. That feels great. And then like a few weeks will go by and I'll have that sort of those signs of burnout of like, oh, I'm not sure. And then I'll second guess the purpose and think, is that really? I mean, am I, I guess, am I feeling a bit like about it?

because I fundamentally don't vibe with the purpose or is it just because I'm tired right now and just haven't eaten for a while and I just need to take a little bit of a break. But then, you know, if I then push you on it, you're not taking the break that you need to. So you're always going to be in this vicious cycle, constantly questioning yourself. Whereas actually if you did give yourself some break, some time, you know, some ideas might bubble up that actually this is the right direction or it might be actually, no, we do need to pivot, but you're not stopping to think. Yes.

Yeah, because I guess it's too easy to kind of go down that bit. Yeah, and just keep going. And I don't know, I wonder if there's also this thought around, yes, you want to create content that really does reach and change, but it's okay to pivot and say, actually, our content needs to maybe do a slight move in this direction. And that's okay, too.

because maybe that's also the the hemming in of purpose needs to look like we're talking about this and we only talk about these things on this channel and maybe that's also where you're feeling a bit blocked creatively perhaps yeah i think that's very true okay so like let's say you were like coaching me and we were having a one-on-one session or something like that hypothetically

And I would like to be like Samantha. Yeah, I'm kind of feeling this sense of burnout. I'm kind of feeling this sense of like, not really sure what direction the business is supposed to be going in. We kind of have a good thing going. We're pretty profitable. I have decent margins. We have a great team. Like the vibes are strong. So I like, I really enjoy coming into the studio each day and the people that I work with. But there's something about like the content or the mission or something that's feeling like a bit like not,

Is it the content or the mission or is this you just not feeling like enough is enough? What do you mean not feeling like enough is enough? You know, sometimes we can be incessantly changing, evolving, pushing. Yeah. Because maybe, you know, we all have different scripts again that we can live by and some of them is perfectionism. Yeah.

To be successful, I need to be perfect and all the ducks need to be aligned. Or we were accepted or loved when we were younger, when we were doing more, more, more, more, more. When we were creating. Or perhaps in order for us to be recognized, we had to be constantly achieving. And so, you know, I try and get my clients to think about where is the need for the pivot? Where is it coming from? And is the mission, the statement thing, a distraction from...

actually, like you said, this is really good right now. And am I just pushing a match to burn it down because it needs to be? Or is this my habit that I need to keep going for more and more and more? Or actually, is it time for me to change? And actually, I am feeling stagnant. So mission feels like one part of the problem, but there's something else. Yeah, I think there's a combination of all three things. I was having this conversation with a friend over dinner yesterday around like, when it comes to a business, like when is enough enough? It's like,

when have we gotten to the point where we've got enough growth or enough revenue or enough profitability for it to be like, it's all good. But then the other side of the coin is, you know, people say, well, you know, if you're not growing, then you're declining.

And it's like... But you could be growing in other ways. You know, maybe there is a part of you that is craving another life stage. And if the business is ticking off nicely, what else could be available to you? Yeah. And if you were to take the business to that next level, what will it then take from you or take for you to do that? And are you okay with that too? Hmm. Because with growth comes other sacrifice.

Yeah. And we definitely found that kind of going from a team of like zero to two to four to 10 to 18, where it's just like at every stage of growth, it's felt like we're solving a bunch of problems by hiring a bunch of people, but then we're creating a bunch more problems by hiring a bunch of people. Of course, it multiplies, right? Yeah. And in a way, it's like... And then whose vision is it? Like...

you know, what's the vision that you had initially when you started the business? Was it, you know, a sprawling mass of lots of teams in different locations and filming videos and da-da-da-da? Or, you know, was it something where there's me and maybe a team of four and we're just...

pushing out amazing content and that's okay but actually the world that i'm in requires me to scale and grow and actually that's not what i want to do yeah i feel like my views on this often change depending on the person i'm speaking to right and so again who are you pleasing yeah because i did an interview with a chap called um will mccaskill a few a few months ago it's like one of the a few weeks ago actually one of the founders of the effective altruism movement and he is you know this like

you know, super cool guy, written a bunch of books and sort of caps his salary at 27K a year as he like started off at 20 and then just adjusted for inflation. And he just donates all of the other hundreds of thousands he makes to charity every year. And he was just like, yeah, I mean, it's great. Like, I don't need to worry about money. I think like I've got my basics covered. Like life is good. I'm just focused on the mission. But then I would listen to a podcast or interview someone who's one of these like 10 million, $100 million entrepreneurs, where it's suddenly it's like, oh, you know, here's how we chase that next level of growth and stuff. And then I start thinking, oh, that sounds pretty good.

But does it though? Do you like the person that you would need to become to get there? Because it's not a bad thing. It's not the right or wrong thing, but it's just questioning. Do I want to be that person? Because it will take a different version of you, a different level of pace to do that consistently. Do you want to do that? Yeah, I don't think so. I think I prefer a chill lifestyle. So then honor that and own it, right? Because with that means that actually...

the need for us to keep growing and scaling is not going to take me towards that lifestyle life. But then I need to make peace with that. And then I also need to be able to talk about that with confidence and conviction to others. And if I can't do it, then I'm still not sold on that vision. So I guess that comes down to basically taking some time to think about it. Always circles back to us.

You and you alone. Yeah. You know, all these other voices are powerful. You know, it's great to have an army or a family or grow up with that community that is there to ask you these questions, to push you to not be complacent. Yeah. But then fundamentally as well, if we get pushed from pillar to post by different voices, different thoughts, you'll never have...

the concrete direction of what you want and the business that you want to build. You'll be building everyone else's version of what your business should be. And there's nothing wrong with it. I think there's also this, there was a great article the other day, I can't remember where it's from, but I was forwarded about the myths of the lifestyle business. And it was talking about how, you know, a lot of these people that we aspire to become all had initial lifestyle businesses to begin with. And it's like, why do we make

the stigma that we need to chase investment, we need to grow, we need to be bigger and better. Fundamentally, the world's changed. It's like actually, how is...

Is that really relevant for you? Do you want what comes along with that? Some people are like, yes, hell yes. So then go for it. But if actually there's a part of you that's like, yeah, there's a part of me that's like, right. Then, you know, it's not, it's not for you. You just have to be able to be at peace with that decision. Yeah. And I guess it comes back to partly that thing of like, when is enough enough? Yeah. It's like, what is the level of growth, profitability, revenue that I'd be like, actually, this is pretty solid and now we don't need to grow anymore. We just need to, you know, and then it's growth in different ways. Yeah.

Yeah. Growth in different ways. Yeah. What does that mean for, you know, if your team are at a place where, you know, you're delivering and everything's working, like how are they growing in different ways? How might you grow in different ways? How might it create the space for you to try new things? Hmm.

Yeah, I feel like once we got to the point where kind of the business was sufficiently like was working well enough, then suddenly I became much more interested in like, oh, team member X, you've been thinking of starting a YouTube channel for a while. Let's figure out how we can make that happen or things like that. You wouldn't have time to do that if you're scaling to like get to 10 mil plus, plus, plus.

You might, but I mean, it would then take a lot more from you. Yeah. So what's more important? Yeah, I like that framing, kind of growing in different ways because it taps into that part of me that's like, oh, but I want to grow. But it's like growing does not have to be growing revenue and growing headcount. It can be growing in some ways. It's growing in different ways, you know, and I think it's being open to...

Like, where do I feel like I'm not growing? And perhaps that is also a frustration that's causing you to kind of want to break parts of the business or want to grow. But actually there is growth that you want to do personally. Yeah. Changing gears slightly. How do you think about the balance when it comes to working with people in terms of giving appropriate feedback versus not wanting to be mean and like wanting to keep people happy and keep the everything's all good. Everything's all fine.

fine and dandy versus like, oh, actually we have a problem here and this needs to be some level of like negative feedback given to someone or constructive criticism or things like that. Yeah, I think we have to. Yeah. I think it's important to be able to solicit feedback and to be able to give it to. I think if there's no point in,

playing nice or people pleasing or fitting everything into a nice little box. I think it's definitely the way that you deliver it. But when you stop having courageous conversations with people, your team starts to wonder what you're not telling them. Lots of silos build up. And before you know it, you've got, you know, people that don't trust you or aren't really aligned anymore because they just know that there's something else that's up. And I think

this state that we're in in terms of work, you know, there's been a lot of breakdown because of lack of trust in management or a lack of an ability to be transparent about what's needed here to grow or how I can be, you know, and there's the spectrums like there's radical candor or, you know, we can still deliver it in a tone that is, gets your point across without being mean. Hmm.

I think you have to, if you cannot confidently give constructive criticism, then you're no good to your friends, your team, anyone. That's the only way that we grow. When you think about the psychology model of how we're set up, right? So Joseph Luff and Harry Ingram created this model. And for each of us, we have four different areas. So there is like who we are as self, right?

And that's what you show the world. That's what you tell people. And that's how people like see you. And then there is this element that is our blind spots. And that is the area that you need to solicit some feedback or get curious about. And people can say, actually, do you know what, Ali? You really do this frustrating thing when you kind of go off in two different tangents and we don't really know what you're thinking. And it then doesn't enable us to make decisions.

plants. That's important knowledge for you to know and it's a blind spot. We also have an area that is a mask, right? Which is what we use as a protective shield to not show people about us and that's through more self-disclosure and discovery that people can learn about who you are. I think the last quadrant is just unknown by everybody. So it's through more and more of this feedback sharing, this curiosity that we need to have for each other that we can start to learn how to be better humans and

But if you're not willing to, or you get shy at giving, taking feedback, you're not necessarily going to be able to give it either. I feel like this is one long coaching session for you, isn't it? This is so good. I'm just like, my mind is just being blown all like, all across all fronts. I think you talked about this a bit in the book. It's like people wanting kind of varied roles. Well, it's sort of the idea of people wearing multiple hats within relationships.

within a team versus the idea of like having a very clearly defined, like your job is X and you're doing this one thing. When we were in startup land, we were very much multiple hats, multiple things. And then we sort of, I think probably over-indexed a bit too much on like business structure and org charts and all that jazz where it's like,

kind of really wants to put someone in a box with a very defined set of responsibilities which means that a bunch of people we've got on the team feel like i kind of joined the team kind of hoping that i'd get involved in everything but now i've been siloed into this division that's just just this one this one thing because apparently that's what the org chart says there's any any thoughts on that

balancing out i mean i think it's through more of those conversations with people to realize like what they're really good at and i think there has to be some specificity as the business grows in terms of actually yes you're in charge of that and you can own that and be autonomous in how you deliver in your role but i think that's the phase of going from startup to scale up right people need you need to get some sort of structure for this thing to work otherwise people are just burning out all over the place

Yeah, I think that was a problem we had in startup mode where it's like everyone was doing everything but like working 100 hour weeks. Right. And then suddenly things have to have because you can't sustain that. So, you know, I think it's par for the course is that you do need some

some structure in there. But I think it's more a case of are we giving people the autonomy to deliver and work in a way that's effective for them? Yeah, I guess with this, like, again, like, I often wonder about the autonomy thing because it's like, I guess different people want different levels of autonomy in the sense that there are some people that we have who are like, yeah, just tell me the direction we're going and I'll just make it happen. And then there are others that are like, no, I would really appreciate autonomy

a clearer sense of direction and like what specifically you want me to do

And regular check-ins to, yeah. That's the nature of humanness, right? We're all different, right? I think that's the nature of just how we show up. And I guess it's just how do you cultivate a culture that responds to that and allows those who need the free will and the free reign and others who need a bit more direction. And what do you want more of in the team? Do you want more of self-motivated, go off and do it on your own? And that requires you to trust them and to relinquish control. Yeah.

or is there a part of you that still wants to be able to micromanage or to look after or to own to a certain degree yeah it's like my initial gut is like oh I love it when people work self-directed and stuff but then I'm thinking oh but like obviously I'd want to quality control everything right so then there's a part

of you that's involved in all the processes and be like yeah so then I might as well just do it myself yeah like you have to I think and this is how your management style will shape and affect whether or not those people feel like they are you know working in a way that's effective for them or they just kind of feel like actually can't make a move without

You're breathing down my neck about how I do things. Yeah. Okay, thank you. This has been incredibly helpful. I'd love to turn the conversation back to the book for a moment. So like, who is the book aimed at? Who's the sort of people that you would benefit from checking it out? I really feel like it's weird. When I look at my workshops, it was predominantly, I would say, people who were maybe...

in their mid-thirties upwards who were like, I've been doing this job for a while and there is probably a lot of psychological baggage and, um,

around changing. And so by then they have the sort of trappings, the house, the kids, maybe they're looking after aging parents and then it's the risk. It feels too much to then move. What I've realized later is that there is a lot more of a younger audience as well who are like, actually,

I love the freedom of creating a portfolio career or the fact that I never really thought about how I show up in certain situations and now I can understand how I communicate differently with people or why I keep having the same tired argument. It's for people who are on the cusp of making a change in their career or are questioning, you know, is this path

and how can I disrupt it and what might I do differently and actually want to be taken through a series of exercises. It's practical in that sense. So I really wasn't aiming it for someone who's just going to read it and put it down and be like, oh, that was a nice book. I really want it to be almost like a Bible that you go back to, like a manual that you can pick up

And maybe you don't read it straight away, but maybe you read Love It and then actually you're at a leave it stage and that bit becomes more relevant. Or actually there's a certain chapter that's really helped you think about change differently. I'd say it's for everyone. I mean, fundamentally. I guess everyone who started some kind of career. Yeah. In a career transition, you know, really trying to make the most out of their existing career. Because I think what's...

What's interesting is that I get a lot of people say to me, you know, I had no intention of leaving. I think I just want to make what I'm doing better. Yeah.

or, you know, it did make me question whether or not leaving was the right decision in the first place. I started somewhere new and the same problems are there. So it's, I'm realizing I'm the problem, not the company. Nice. And we'll put links to the book in the video description, in the show notes, wherever you're, wherever people happen to be listening or watching this. But yeah, I just want to say thank you so much for coming on and for the little private personal coaching session. So I really appreciate that. My pleasure. You've given me a lot to think about. I'm going to have a good long look at my calendar and be like, right, what is going on here? That's, that's causing, well, it feels like it's causing a bunch of these things.

And, yeah, just the idea of instead of me thinking that someone else has the answers and therefore I can just rely on their personal opinion. It's like taking their opinion but taking it with a grain of salt and connecting it with what I feel is the right decision to make. Because I feel like you've made... I think that's the thing. It's like becoming more trusting of the decisions that you're making. So realise that you were a doctor before and...

you realize that that was not the right career for you. So you made a decision to leave. That proved to be successful. Like, let's not downplay that. You've now started a business which is successful. So you can make decisions. You have proved before that you have made a series of good decisions.

So therefore, when it comes to your next step, don't default that to other people. Look back at your capacity to think about and tune into what you want and give yourself the space to play with that. But it does require some downtime. You know, I think we don't allow rest to play a huge role in us creating and developing. We think it's like more, more, more, now, now, now. And actually, it's the rest where you get your best creative ideas. And also that...

as I move into more of the kind of new aesthetics and thinking about this art science bridge, the realization that in the downtimes, in the play, in the idleness is where you find parts of yourself and where your brain is working through problems in that subconscious space to give you new answers that if you didn't create the space, you would never hear. I'll check out more of that human design stuff because that's super intriguing. I was like, whoa, shit, that sounds like super spot on. And all I did was give it my date of birth.

This is it. People, you know, we have to be open to other ways of seeing ourselves. Yeah, rather than purely the cognitive fancy. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, thank you so much. My pleasure. Thank you. All right. So that's it for this week's episode of Deep Dive. Thank you so much for watching or listening. All the links and resources that we mentioned in the podcast are going to be linked down in the video description or in the show notes, depending on where you're watching or listening to this. If you're listening to this on a podcast platform, then do please leave us a review on the iTunes store. It really helps other people discover the podcast. Or if you're watching this in full HD or 4K on YouTube, then you can leave a comment down below and ask any questions or any insights or any thoughts about the episode. That would be awesome. So yeah, thank you very much for listening. I'll catch you hopefully in the next episode.