Are L2s Extensions of Ethereum? | Kyle Samani & Max Resnick vs. David Hoffman & Jill Gunter
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I think the market demand for producing chains should be just taken as fact in this dn age. We know that there is going to be many, many, many change that some chain is going to figure out how to aggregate all the chains. Some change is going to figure out how to make these change, have stronger property rise and composition service mechanisms between all these chains.

And that one chain is going to incentivize the production and aggregation of even further chains. And that chain will become money. Bank ation. For those of you who did not make IT to permissionless st this year, there are some pretty hot conversations that were held over those three days at the conference. The spicy st conversation or debate, I should say, is what you're going to hear right now.

It's a debate as to whether or not layer tools or extensions or a theory um this debate is between Cosmo and max reznik teamed up on the side of no layer tools are not extensions of a theory um versus myself and jill gunter. Jill gunter, from a oppressor on the side of, yes, they are extensions of a theory. Um some people said that this was A Z panel of commissioners.

St, not my worst. This was a out of the moderator, westy from blocks works. He was also the last panel on the last day of permissionless, about four hours before my fight with came work, work. And I use this panel to get into a war mode in order to prep for the fight. And I definitely that worked.

There were also lots of other superhot panel and conversations that were held without permissionless ryans main stage panel with Christianson was super incitement to day, defied main stage with cane stony and sam tasmanian from frx, co. Moderated by mike eba. Eto and ryan had an ethical layer two conversation with alex from Z K sink, Harry from arbitrium b, and rushed from movement labs.

All of those conversations are getting released on the bank. Less premium podcast feed. So let's go head to get right into the episode. By first is a word .

for my responsbility as go everyones i've been excited for this conversation for a while ever since we set ted in stones. I'm westy among the blocker ard research team. Uh, most reaches been or on a theory infrastructure roll ups.

And so this question that we're debating to happen talking about for a while and IT feels like we there been a lot of conversations on the twitter verse on podcast, but I don't think we've ever gotten people different views in one place at one time. So I think this will have to be super fund conversation, hopefully get some some hot takes uh as well. Like I said in this, a conference a with the being here. So I guess to start, i'd love to have a sort of opening statements, if you will, from never on the tunnel, so we can get a click introduction of everyone. And then if each person also wants to go into wow, I guess the highway thoughts are what they think when they hear the question, uh R L tus c centers of the um so will start with color here and make away down sure .

a high road money is cosima in a cofounder at little tikes ital. We are seven years old and that's missing script um and I do not believe altus are and their current form at as our generally used widely popular alto orbital base optum or not extension of the terim although are other constitutions that could be hi everyone .

maxed resident on the head of research at special mechanisms group smg is a skunk works organization within consensus, which is the parent company as a we do special projects. We work with all sorts of things throughout that. We particularly specialize in MV transaction supply chain, transaction living. We also do a bunch of work on the atrium protocol. And I read coal that altus in the front form are not um I love that .

you guys already adding some new lots to this to me. Uh, my name is jill. I'm a co founder at this Price system, we're working to solve cross chain composition service starting with altus on authorities so very relevant um and I believe that altus are an extension of a theory um I think there is two ways to ask the question. One is based stan definitions the other ways to ask IT based on the goals of altus first to the goals of a theory um and I think any way you slice IT extensions, I am David uh one .

of the two bequest guys, the other ones in this room somewhere um and I think Clair tudes our theoria our extension of a theoria naturally uh and I think whether or not that that same thing is true or false really depends on a course how we define words. Uh, all debates are essentially semantic debates. Uh, I think it's theoria. Uh, all block chains are property rights systems and whether or not layer tools are extensions of a theory um uh is either true or not true based on how strong the layer one can promise assure your property rights on a layer two uh and so this is why we have things like later to be uh the different stages. Uh fraud proofs, uh, zk proofs. Uh the whole purpose of layer two is to be a one one extension of your property rights on the theory um uh and I think this debate is being had now because uh, what is not happening or at least what is perceived h by the market is not happening, is that later tues are not becoming an extensions of each value a cruel uh, I think perhaps that is something that is worth maybe talking about or focusing on, but at the very least that could also only be temporary amn.

Ah there's a lot of threads you mention that I definitely I want to go off of the first we should certainly define exactly what we're talking about here because I think that's the first question most people have is what does that mean to be an extension of theory and where to be a thereon? And sounds like you you defined a David own curious because uh the people sort of on the anti side here said in their current state um some curious from this side, uh what would you say like what properties would you say make something an extension that like maybe in the current state there are not what they could .

be at some point in the future. I have a fairly simple in my test for this, which is is the extension thing is an extension if it's doing something that cannot function on when that and if that doesn't just mean like hate and greece, the through put of an APP by like ten x or one hundred x like that still functionally the same thing but if but if you're actually unlocking like new behavior um or new use cases that that to me is an extension and explicit therefore not a replacement. The mainstream attunes that is, is on in their room today are explicit, replacing a function 的 l one did a year to go out。

Would you agree? Yeah, I would agree with that. I think my test is also about whether these things are their own silos state with network effects. And when your your own silos state with neuk affects, you naturally compete with a theory, which is a silent state with newcomers. Ts, so that's another thing that I would add to mind definition.

And then I would just add, like go look at what the things are, will turn out spending money on and it's basically spending money to take away the lifeblood of ABS currently Operating on a zero zero one. And another thing, go look at the fact that unchanged announced that they're launching their own l two. So that's a hugely popular APP.

The u swap brought is one of the most commonly a used highest gas use of contracts on main net. And they're saying, hey, we're gona go away from my met and make our own now too. Which again has silent state, which is not interpreted with anything else today.

Today, they explicitly have on their road map interactive ability in composition ly ago. So are we are we taking unit as IT exist? Sorry, i'm not even sure the state that that that exist today are we taking altus at the work .

of the robby? So like actually if we one million tp s on the road map, does I mean that theory is scaling, like I just think .

we live viable pack there. We've been saying a theory um is scaling for years. I think you would agreed with that.

I would not agree that theory um has been scaling for years. I don't think we've done any.

I guess because C L two is not as an extension material. I wanted to dress what what kyle said though. I mean, I think firstly we can simplify the definitions. What is the theory um it's a world computer is a platform for innovation and water altus their applications. They're specialized form of applications with their applications.

And I would contest the statement that altus are only extensions of a theory um if you're doing something you fundamentally can't do on the may not am not true that I really understand that um but I would see that regardless of that definition, you are doing something on l two that you can do on the main that you have a totally different dynamic around transaction costs through put at sea. I'm surprised to hear that statement coming from someone who is such a big backer of salona because what would be the use case of salona? What would be the reason for a developer to go over to sala? If that was not by your own definition of fundamentally different experience, then you could get on on theoria. That's what altus are offering to developers today.

The onic beat explicit with altus. So I I agree with that. But the frame of the question is not bed for as long base first cedi um yeah .

but you you're getting a fun. Why would any developed choose between the these things? Why when when they just you made that as of a few years ago, which was where all of the activity, all of the user is, all of the liquidity was because they're getting a fundamentally different experience on slawa. And today, because they get that fundamentally different experience vian l two, which then by your definition is an extension.

how can you have a fundamentally different experience in an extension? This to our contradictory statements. If IT is fundamentally different, IT is not the same.

That's what i'm working off of kyles definition. So you'll have to ask him .

saying that he is not afraid to say that salona is competing with the theory, but i'm not afraid to say that. And I am also saying that altus can be competitive with you there, my one as well. And there are things that I would like to see on the l one that are only impossible, on the l one like censorship, persistently and credible neutrality that you cannot expect to see from A U.

S. M. C. Centralized sequencer. And you know, you want to see the canadian truckers be able to use the chain when they want to get their money out of their account.

Then you probably shouldn't rely on a regulated, centralized sequencer on U. S. E.

One or on some box somewhere in the western nice country. You need more than one blocks contributing. You need decentralized sequencing, and you cannot basically provide the same guarantees. Eat our one provides without doing that. And a large .

front of the conversation, uh, comes down to the competitive, competitive layer two chains, to the host chain, like the the layer one chain, uh, when base grows, does IT subtract from the theon. Which is yes, probably the answers. Yes, IT also attracts from optimism IT also subtracts from k think also subtracts from all change.

Actually actually there's no really difference between when arbitrium m winds is pulling away from elana too. Uh and so there has been this ongoing uh, development architecture in crypto ou even within without a serum. You see this in Cosmos where you have a variety of chains was like no real ropes between them, no real connections. You have poked up with many, many chains with like very rigid connections between them and that really didn't take off. And now we have a syria was like, what I think you guys are saying, very loose connections, but connections than one. The less strong property rights are uh continued across chains and at least win and asterius layer two wins IT takes away from salona more than IT takes away from the aggregate of a theory um because at least IT keeps the inside of the authorities ecosystem so when you can keep a value inside of a theoria, uh yes, the layer to the royal central broad map is designed to have all chains be competitive with other chains inside the serum central road map but at least there's some aggregate value created that's retained by the net theoria ecosystem that is pulled away from the very disconnected that layer one landscape okay.

But let's let's can take this view so is Allange, which is an E B M chain l 1 part of the therion ecosystem。 By this logic, is monad part of the etherium ecosystem. Do you have to just like, do you just automatically become part of the theory system posting stay greates, or you have to post use use theory for D A, there is no clear line.

there is no clear line as instead of concentric circles, but I think there is a clear line as to where property rights are given assurances to uh and I think a property rice, a surges stop, is somewhere like avh n evm chain monad. And then way further way is so a .

lot of great things right now you thought on sort of interros like, let's say, a syrian in an overlooks agreed on one interros standard that there is good U. X. To basically easily switch assets from one rope to another to A D M.

one. You know, this cocos stem like you did laa across his rops. What that change your guidance is my like, would that be like what i'll do in that case, like sort of to be a theory and be a part of one ecosystem? Or would that no matter I mean .

it's like what what does this me to be a theory and like David, you can say our property rights you know function like will land and like okay that's one element um and other element is do Normal people perceive IT as as the same another would be like as there are some general sense of credible neutrality. Another would be um if you want to get late, like transaction len cy for inclusions whether you live in india or the Philippines or in mexico, like what what what are those guarantees?

Um so there's like different properties of of the systems um oh and and baby the other one of like again answering the question is X A serum um you know the most obvious one of my in in is like is IT proving A V value to to the base asset um and so there's different constructions of various roloff y looking things, whether the espresso or arbitrium or base or uni chain or special ops or whatever. And and all of these systems have different versions of some some of these properties um I think in my maxes and my definition, none of these post systems by any of these groups are functionally equivalent to syria. They may have partial equivalence on some properties um but none of them are one hundred percent from fully pulin by definition. If that was the case, I want to be on stage or right by there be date, but I very obviously, they are not functional.

And yeah, I guess like just to come back to our opening statement. It's like in its current form today is exactly what we are talking about. We are not talking about what is on the road map.

We work in an industry where roadmaps are means, okay, roadmap s do not exist. Ship code, the code that ship is what the thing is, not the code that you promised to ship in the future. Uh, words on a page are not code on the compiler, but the serum .

has had a pretty coherent roadmap. They had a vivid in twenty nine to the old century road map, but nonetheless there was some true no star that IT kept uh, when a pivoted to the role centric road map, there is one central north star. We just decided to get there a different way.

And so one who is like investing in cyp to based on current conditions is not going to make IT, uh, like things are going to change in in the future. Uh, I think the theory ams on IT was on his role central map in twenty twenty one. So on I have a big rise as we realized that the layer one is and we really only had polygon as a side chain to the syrian with no actual strong commitments of property rights connecting there.

Uh but now we have and so this was the era of many independent silos, world garden chains blossoming of a theory um proving the use case of or the idea of a successful roll up centric road map of the the poke up model, the Cosmos model but this time actually working in thriving ing uh and so we had the growth of many independent silo chains. Now we have what is, I think, the era of the cross hatching between these chains uh, we have jail from spray. So doing some of that work here, that is one frontier of the composition order of networks. But this one canonical bridge is the first step to producing composite book, but the rest of the shape gets filled in by many different technologies. And I think that is going to define the next two to three years of material.

I just wanted build on that to come back to this question of what are the goals of the theory um and what are the goals of all and that we've named three different goals throughout this conversation so far. One would be to create censorship resistance applications. Now does not the goal of every alto, certainly the goal of some altus.

There are altus that include pr nado cash transactions. There are altus building explicit for even more kind of cypher punk values than exist on a theoria today uh on the a theoria may net um and so so i'd say that on that front, the goals are aligned and compatible between the main none uh and the altus at least some of the altus building upon IT. A second goal that we've named now is composition service I think censorship, persistence and compose base or basically the two reasons that you have as a developers to build in web three or as a user to use web three acts.

Composition order, to me, is honestly still a big question mark. That is where I think there is risk that altus go off to build their own world gardens. That is why I am working on espresso toward to sell compose base. And then there is a third question, which you mentioned earlier, that I think we've all been skating around, which is the question of value, a cure. And that is the real reason why everyone is skating over this is because I think bitcoin solon A R chop, like forty percent in the last few months in a serum that mean where you're poking IT with a sticks saying to something and they get there .

in the current state of a theory an we do have kind of this like blanks step of and then and then there's a perfectly composer of theory um and there's like a missing step there but nonetheless we do see signs of internal compose base across uh, what s Lucy is calling the clusters uh, the superchain, the elastic chain.

Uh there are there is a pretty coherent .

there are all busier. There's a pretty coherent path for perhaps internal composition service across these systems. And once the superchain, once the elastic chain fixes internal composition order of which they are highly motivated to do and they have the war chest to do, the R N D to do that.

And then we learn a bunch of lessons to apply, like what worked and what did didn't we have? Like five different of these frameworks? All problem. Maybe there's five different solutions. Maybe there's one different solutions.

We're onna find IT, and we're going to export those lessons learned to fill in the gaps between the frameworks, but between the arbitron k orbit chains and the super chain. And that will take time. We'll take a lot of time, but that is the path I were on. And I don't think that that's like A A crazy incoherent a vision of .

the future is not defined like, yes, anything is possible. Sure, you don't describe violence in laws of physics. So like, okay, it's possible. But like that that that helps. Like just saying i'm not proposing breaking in law physics.

I mean, there's everything you said, David, which is that I didn't work for cosme and I didn't work for all a lot. This time is different.

We actually .

have the change now like IT is currently working. You know that .

like arrested development, me, I mean, first of all, we will see what happens when the rewards dry up on arbitrary and the the this war destroy. It'll see if IT actually works when the tide comes out, will see an exporter .

have to look like for l ties to be an extension of theory in what about? okay.

Also the other thing David said was that we've been consistent on the romp. But then the first thing he said was actually we shifted the road map from starting and IT was basically starting. I think that would be like pret pretty consistent with being a theory um but it's not starting. It's a separate team building a separate system which is not composer with separate economics as a separate economics and its own token that is distributing to its team that does not depend on on eat at all. And it's it's making money for itself and for its team members and for its token holders and not for eat yeah .

I definitely want to go there to the economics and value co, which we happens getting around all day. So I guess that brings about the question that I hear a lot, which is R L to parasitic to the one. So i'll post that question into coil in .

a counterfactual world in which the l one was otherwise scaling and sequences. Yes, if that is not your counter for full world that no, but like that that kind of like implicit question implicity is being asked against that caractere. Otherwise you just say we're scaling them out of saying but like the position against something.

would you guys say that they are to the some biotic.

they are parasitic to the theory um they are also not generate of value inside of the theory an ecosystem. And so. When arbitrary attracts the marginal user, they attracted to the authorities ecosystem.

And by the way, the dominant asset on the arbitrary and all of the major alone es is IT. So there's demand in these ecosystems for ease and there's pathways to exponentially grow the user base of a theory um from what we've seen any time historically on any chain and that transaction volume and uh the the growth of ser base, the growth of holders to be at including long term holders of IT will probably so do that on the l one. All of that is value of .

creative there. The role of centric map will succeed or fail based on the tension between defection of chains away from theory um or coordination incentives towards the needs to be a harmony there. A yen and a Young of like we need to allow enough uh flexibility, enough tolerance for these layer tools to issue their own tokens, to grow their own wealth, to provide their own utility, but enough incentives for that value generation to stay inside of the authorities ecosystem.

And this is actually in start contrast interesting ly, both bitcoin and salona, which are like kind of like monoliths ins where bitcoin is like don't build any value outside of BTC the asset pro everything away from bitcoin to focus on B, T, C, the asset. And salona is the same way, which is in my mind, net stunting is a ceiling on the total value, uh because you're actually being very rigid on the net ecosystem that can be born. And so whether not the relevant tric road map succeeds is going to be because IT allowed systems to be parachutist of the layer wine yet still be contained inside of the broader ecosystem.

I think you're touching on something really important, which is incentives. There's a reality that developers are incentivised to launch their own chains. And so to the point of counter factual was coin base gonna launch base on salona as an application, if they didn't build IT on a thereon? Or were they going to launch IT as their own chain? I am not at the base team. We can go just the I think in that counterfactual world, they would have launched IT as their own chain instead of keeping IT within the authorities family, which altus have, enable them to do so.

I guess I want to clarify my position, which is I do believe that altus are bad for cyp to currency. I just believe that they are parasitic c to etherium in their current for. And about me.

you mean that the net parasitic to the theory um as then they get they take away more than they give back.

I think they are currently taking users and giving back nothing. So I think like from me like how much are they taking away what that is a positive, how much they giving back? Well, it's like one cent a month on blogs.

I think that's a what about the reservation demand of like how much cheese is on arbitron? Like I I don't know, look a quite a large supply of eat on arbitrary. What value does that .

provide to the all been on eat IT, wa bridge, arbitron, so IT would have still been on eat if IT wasn't a bridge target?

IT, yeah, but they would help help us have grown the usage of these networks.

I'm saying that we should have the counter factual is we could have just scale the .

old one that's a road map.

And layer, layer tools are the largest buyers that will ever exist of east because of how big the layer tools are going to get.

Tues are not buyers of eat users the .

night of deposit tracts as net buyers of that's not a .

buy that's A P IT would have .

been on IT was already on l one by definition previously .

that is the only place that could have ever come from IT was already there.

The the net value of these ecosystems, the value that they provide to the world, is in addition to the a theory ecosystem. And that value is creating reservation demand for ethics. So the value .

is in addition to the theory I thought were .

for all that you guys have said in this panel so far. This debate is so far that we can talk about road maps. Road maps exist.

Your counterfactual depends on a scaling road map for a theory um that has never existed. Your counter factual that all of that and for for eat would exist on the E L. One if that were not .

for arbitrary. I should I agree that I I don't think there was ever a plane, the scale of one I mean, they talked about charting for a while. Uh, I don't think there was ever a serious design skill issue. Um yes, I agree with. But like that is the counterfactual to compare a against like it's just like it's the .

obvious counterfactual .

never existed again. IT.

We are using what they have built on built on a or do you .

think basis little a fork of option is the same ship. Is that application and not what it's .

another alto alto, our forms application. No, they're not o and you copy you take .

the same uniform contract and you copy place there, you just copy place the shape shit ten .

more times like IT is still of application that's like of the applications in cypher. But if i'm coin base and I want a way to bring users on change, as I understand, is the fundamental goal of this, what am I going to be on chain? Build an l two on a serum or go deploy and up on salona get not either build a chain or build an l two.

The above you can be a broker and you the today you have any U I whether the retail APP or the pro APP or primate or whatever. And you've got database on amazon.

And like the front happens to point at the back and obviously is quite day's own both of them um and like the back and is there and the front could point in any other place in that other place or other places at the point you could not include the theory may net the arbs a lot of a net include fucking ava and who cares and like so saying that like they need IT base to exist is incorrect. They already have the users. They have the K Y C.

They have the apps on people's ones. They can just tap in the liquidity anywhere. The basis is bite definition unnecessary. I mean, little ally formed up to this and like isn't have to exist at all.

Can someone let brian know? Let brian armstrong know?

Yeah, actually I would love to seriously.

So one thing on actually you want to get back to is you guys mentioned sort of like eat s and one thing yeah like with this relationship between altus and I won, whether the parasitic s and biotic sort of all comes down to to eat because that sort is the exchange, right? Like l two are paying the I want to post their data and in return they're sort of allowing eat to profit on these altus. So I guess I want want to get your guys just take on sort of eat. The asset isn't enough uh, to have IT on these altus is if money on these altus like where is that like actual value crew for the alwan S I think it's going up .

a very hard time in this conversation because cow doesn't believe in money.

So there's a very easy limit us for this. So so the only assets at scale that are quoted in eat or in sol or N F T, N F T of that on no chain or quoted in in dollars, they're only quoted in native assets. But like any of these today are down ninety seven, eight, nine percent, something like that.

And if you look at new liquidity pools, the vast majority of quote pairs across the see if I exchanges and fy are against dollars. There are a couple of polls that are you dominated like it's not zero but I bet you across all eight will want to eat. I bet you eat quotes as a person of L P volume percentage of um T V L and is presentative of actual volumes i'm getting guessing is on the .

order two three percent. The number one pair on a dim alone is eat U S D C. The number two pair is E P S D T.

So in this industry we're going to just settle for the united days dollar as the unit of account because i'm looking forward. What about the fir currency crisis that has underpin this entire industry for the last decade? Sorry, what crisis? The fir currency crisis.

What Price? What's surprises?

The one that we keep on printing of them, how we printed h sixteen trillion dollars in twenty twenty.

what is the Price that he describes, what the crisis .

devaluation of fiat.

what's the Price people being able .

to store their wealth so and maintain their wealth.

There's internet number access in the world .

you can own .

saying like u kyle. You can buy real .

estate in new york city, you will go up. You can buy real state in dubai will go up. You can buy goal. You can buy silver.

Think the real thing that people have consideration about when IT comes to value a cruel in the economic sea, let's just named the elephant in the room. It's altus have tokens to that all there is to IT. And it's fundamentally, I think this is a question of whether you think that on baLance, altus being on a thereon for is whatever counter of the actually you want to pick even with them having their own tokens.

Is that going to be a net positive or a net negative to a theory um a therefore whatever you want want to call IT business model protocol model IT sa I don't see a case why the pie can't grow and those tokens and those tokens having value can't coexist with the syrians. Value growing. Granted, that is not what the data shows over the last several months.

And so this is a forward looking statement. Maybe, you know, my counterparts here will say no road map, no future, but I think that there is a path towards altus being down. Are you creative to the eat asset even while they have their own tokens?

I think arguing that eat is money in twenty twenty four or twenty twenty two, twenty twenty four is harder because we are looking at a very distant future and arguing that eat isn't money is easy because if we are only looking at today's age, uh, big winners have done this fantastically well where bitcoin is actually replicated, becoming this new internet currency that is like is like genital cold.

But in the future world, if if there is this incentive to produce chains, like there has been the incentive to produce tokens in crypto, and if there is this desire to have these trains aggregated into the same ecosystem, and if one ecosystem capture all of that demand to produce chains that which we seen, yeah base is just a another stack of O P fork. Maybe we should just, uh uh fork the op stack ten thousand more times. Maybe people are actually going to go do that for whatever the hell reason.

Probably probably maybe there's in addition to other other than scaling. And maybe there's one ecosystem where all of these chains are tied together, however loosely. And this is what we call the internet. And there is one currency that's a native to this whole network of chains, and that is money.

You do this were three hundred billion dollars, one of large asses in the world. The owner is on IT to justify its valuation. And like all the valuation, value capture is explicit, leaking to the other places, to the old tools.

I wonder what, in the last year.

what would show up if you looked at all of the east l tutored ans, and you kind of added them up and put east market here with the eth alt tokers and then compared IT to be coin like, I want what that look like.

They want to be a math. And i'm market.

I bet it's about like fifty percent f plus if there two is private, about fifty percent about .

maybe i'm putting words and but do you think that like optimism in and arbitration token have taken away value from the east?

Took none of this is financial advice.

by the way, like me, maybe short term based off of narrative, uh, but also in the long term also base off of narrative. I could equally see value following back to its.

sorry, where is that day coming from? T, D, please be explicit.

multicolored itur tion. This ff.

that's not blowing that to is can .

I just go question genuinely about the sonic ecosystem? I don't know what are the primary to, I don't know, w capture mechanisms business models at a of the apps on savana. I mean, I know that there is like a lot of mean coin generation, so that's an element of IT. But you know, do we see this desire to launch your own chain that we've seen throughout the history of crypto to at least since twenty six, since twenty sixteen, maybe even .

with all coins and the the dozen model of soul today is functionally basically the .

same as business model?

yes. I mean, again, every APP on eat and N L two has a functional covalent on swan a today. I I don't think there .

is an exception to that statement. I would posit then perhaps a theory um is living in soonest future, perhaps just biber two of being a retired, having been around longer, having had actives go through the many painful cycles of the last several years. I mean, salona in many ways, I think had the benefit of launching in a really rough market right around the start of coffee.

It's been not exactly up only, but certainly relative to that. Where's actives on the theory? Um have cut their teeth over the years.

And I realized that they need a Better model both in terms of their own ownership of their road maps and technology development, also just in terms of owning their own value. cruel. And that's where this desire to launch their own chains comes from. And I think the theory um is done itself a service by keeping them at home.

So let me ask question, are there people on solo a who want to build their own? Yes, you can go look at them. There is one thing, right? yes. okay.

Represent the difference between the way that eat is approaching this and the way that sona is approaching this is that salona is still focused on scaling the a one. And eat is focused on doing as much as possible to make the altus. I'm saying .

something else though. I think fundamentally scaling is part of the issue. There's also an incentive issue.

I think yeah that I strongly reject like that station is implicit on the only way to capture value is to be a chain complicated as the administers control, sequencing and not necessary. There are many apps on one today today communal drift, margin drip um bunch that are all making twill pump is in the nine figures, all the ones I disliked her well in the hate figures of revenue and they're all and so on a main net. And obviously like all day on each main net, I think is being roughly fifty million, I think year to date, the roughly revenue. So I get that the same manager like .

not correct revenue.

I would say the long term, what is the best way to capture value, maybe this remains to be seen. But I think the very fact you to swap in unit chain making this pivot arguably mean certainly I think known this room would argue that it's not the thing that they point their moment and dad to as the APP that web 3 has enabled。 I think that that's a strong da point. On the other side.

I actually on with my mom to pumped up on the day.

Another question I do, if the coil is, yes, l tus. Are being built to on song on to actually called network extensions. Pretty ironically, i'm curious if you think there are differences uh from like a text and point or or or maybe something that points to the fact that those are more extensions of salona than l tur of era.

Yeah I mean, again, the the the time representative came about because I was chatting with Austin and rage about this a while ago. And there's an academy efficient and look, David, sectors like property, right? So imagine earlier may be kind of the um academic definition of what makes an l to l to um then there's like the practical thing that the Normal people observer and what Normal people observe today is arbitron.

Optimism in base are the same fact thing as you want. It's literally the same contracts deploy IT. It's the same applications like even the unix copy that obvious copy base but like area drum, which is like the top tex on base is a copy as I for to like you know. So it's like a literally the same copy based to ship um and and also the same assets to and and so my observation was okay. The term l two just means l on, but a little sheep a lot of faster.

And there are some people in sana who are doing that and I call sure call those things out to whatever really care that there's a group of people doing things that or off chain that interact with the chain but they are not that they are not copy pace of the same things. Um ables that into grass. Another example that would be metal boxes in with a new ora thing.

Uh probably wanted to other examples um matic blog and sonic on slam. And I look to these things another okay, they are not copy pates of the same contracts and they're not the same applications. So I thought I would actually be helpful for the ecosystem as a whole to try and create separate uh vocabulary for that fact.

Can you say in like an academic sense of like property guarantees rights, guardie is the same? Like sure. But like there's more to IT than that. There's like what people today observe is all too. And so the intent was the create separation.

But I again, I would just want to double click. The reason that so long as approach to altus is very different than eat approach alto is that eat has spent the majority of debt time over the past four years on the l two road map. That means making being an l two as cheap and easy as possible. And salona has done the opposite.

And we're looking at the fruits of the labor now, I mean, and we can make our own judgments on which was a good decision, but to say that there are altus on salona and their altitudes on eat, and there for both of them have l two road map is wrong, because the road map on sana was never to make altus awesome. IT was to make sana awesome and to increase the troops to a million tp s. And they working on IT, right? We will see if they get there, find answers, some some good work, I understand.

But there was never a wearing in the conviction that salona could be a place where antonia Thomas activity could happen. And there was never a, oh no, we're like not skilled enough to skill IT so that we really should like that at alton is scaling for us. And I think it's partly a compensation issue cord enough on east, they can pay a lot more.

And if you went to like ad before you started off chain labs and said, IT, hey, i'd like we really want you to work on scaling the core preter call and here's a million dollars and you're really smart guy, hopefully can help us with that. Would he have launched a token? I don't know.

Maybe not. And I think the same is true for a lot of the other tAllents of people started out two, if we just compensated them appropriately, like so on is doing for the developers. We could probably have good developers working on scaling the a one and not working on launching on l two token and create time is to to attract as much value to that program possible.

I think part of your perspective, max, is um just because I I think you're kind of a layer maxi like call theoria. So a whatever you just like, you prefer value after to the beyond the layer one and that's frame of reference, right? Um I could be convinced that the syrian project has over indexed on subsidizing layer two.

I could be convinced that theory um layer one once upon a time had this defy golden goose that is more or less up for free to a network of VC funded layer tours that are more than happy to take IT because syria is not scaling the layer one. I could be convinced of that um yeah also at the same time the authorities uh network of chains model which I keep on returning back to, is also under competitive threat as well. Lucia would love to take D A consumers away from a theoria.

Uh and I think the theory da is at seventy five eighty percent capacity and getting feeling in that last twenty percent is going be relatively easy and why going to be done in next couple months or so? And so is really about do you believe in the role epson tric road map? What do you want your priority to be? Serum is trying to do IT all.

And I know some people therefore invest in bitcoin and soul as the barbell. And some people think that the serum will eventually do IT all, because IT will eventually have very fast later one block times, and IT will also have a network of chains. And I think it's really just a matter of perspective of where what design architecture you think is valuable.

I think we have to decide to be the best at something. We cannot be the second best D A layer or the third best D A layer or the second best execution .

chain or the third or the first best money.

We cannot do that. We cannot be the second best on everything and expect to win. We have to be the first best on something.

Uh, yeah, my comments I made about north star over the last couple months like the well like what is what is D F I mean in the extreme case um and to me that means there are you know thousands of consents participant, if not tens of thousands who are all over the world and those people are synchronising financial market information.

A M curved sea lobs, dex positions, whatever IT is um payments, whatever does not matter and that information is synchronising around the world um at the beautiful light to anyone who raises their hand and says, I have a peace hardware that can deal with that is obviously you are dealing with global scale financial information like that's not going to own on a smoltz puter. There is no way to do that, at least not to do IT in real time of in the treasure market. Data is time sensitive and so it's like, okay, well, what are you building? And if you want to just say, look, we building one server somewhere anyhow, we get using property rights guarantees based on the other dating underneath like, okay, that's a thing. IT is functionally similarities to the thing that I just described, but like IT is not functionally the same thing. And like the questions like what are you building and in my mind, like if you're not synchronizing the world's intermarket information in real time around the world, to everyone who raises their hand says, I have a piece of heart work for IT didn't like that's not .

defy rebuilding the first best settings layer, the first best property rights engine as David put IT most economic security is the most in demand from developers, yes, including the developers on altus. Not sure what the question is there, but I will say, max, I think that something we can all agree on, higher comp recorded pressure is my part .

of my platform actually that .

part very much and we're .

going to pay teachers more to yeah and no taxing the tips think so unfortunately .

were already over time. I wanted to see that play out a bit. So I guess to close things out, if everyone want to give, I guess, closing reMarks, business conversation, maybe we found the middle ground. Maybe you want to litigate a position. So I guess i'll start with day with this time and and work away down this way.

Uh, I think the market demand for producing chains should be just taken as fact in this dn age. We know that there is going to be many, many, many chains, that the first thing that happened after we made bitcoin was we made fifteen more chains, uh, and that was the proof work working fairly. launcher.

There's going to be more chains. Some chain is going to figure out how to aggregate all the chains. Some chain is going to figure out how to make these chains have stronger property right composition order mechanisms between all these chains. And that one chain is going to incentivize the production and aggregation of even further chains. Uh, and that chain will become money.

What are the goals of east and what are the goals of the altus to create censorship, persistent apps, to create composer apps and user experiences? That one, again, I think, is the big outstanding question. That's what we all need to be working on.

A number three, to have a sustainable economic engine behind all of this. Stu, cruel and not sustainable economic engine, needs to acknowledge the reality that the best way for actives to deploy is by doing IT as their own chain. That's what we see in a material code stem, and that is not at the expense of the base money.

David, you mentioned that you might be convinced that we're giving up our goal and guse of defy so that some V C funded out too. Could you know take that away and they'll be happy to do IT. What more you need to see to be of that when paradise has launched two altus this week and has more altus in portfolio, may have venture partnership, they know what they are doing. We should recognize IT and we should immediately understand that and say, hold on a second we sees this is actually eat this is not yours and we should immediately act to stop the migration of violently activity in the lifeblood of the theory. Um off of the alone has a question to take, not asking question.

Yeah I just come back to my minds comment like these are financial systems. That's what we have defy with payments. Like do you have be clear about what financial system you you want in the world? The one I want is one in which anyone can raise their hand, whether in india or the Philippines or in the U.

S. A. Or europe, raise your hand and then I get to access the information at the same speed as everyone else. Um I think that is like the definition of the maximum democratized open for mental system. I I don't understand the even an academic definition 的 more fully in capital said vision um and so like that that i'm trying to build that to。 I'm allocating my capital.

awesome. This is super fund. David. Go up with the fight tonight game.