Tom Petty / 'Reservation Dogs' Co-Creator Sterlin Harjo
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This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. If you've been watching the Apple TV Plus series Bad Monkey, you've heard some great covers of Tom Petty songs, like this one. Well, I won't back down, back down.

Easy way

That's Sharon Van Etten. Tom Petty led the band The Heartbreakers, whose other hits include American Girl, Listen to Her Heart, Running Down a Dream, and Breakdown. The band's classic 1982 album, Long After Dark, was recently reissued.

Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers were inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame the first year they were eligible in 2002. As a member of the band the Traveling Woolberries from 88 to 90, Petty performed with several artists he admired like Bob Dylan, George Harrison, and Roy Orbison. Tom Petty died in 2017 at the age of 66.

Let's listen to a portion of the interview Terry recorded with him in 2006 when he had released a solo album of songs called Highway Companion. At the time, he was hosting his own show on the XM Satellite Radio Network. And Terry asked him what radio meant to him as a kid. Everything. You know, I still see it as this really magical thing. It was wonderful. I didn't have...

the money to have a vast record collection. So I learned everything, really, from the radio. And in the mid-'60s, AM radio, pop radio, was just this incredible thing that played all kinds of music. You could hear Frank Sinatra right into the Yardbirds or the Beatles, into Dean Martin. It was just...

It was this amazing thing and I miss it in a way because music has become so compartmentalized now. But in those days it was all right in one spot. And that's, you know, we used to learn, you know, when I was 15 or 16 playing in groups, we used to sit in the car and try to write the lyrics down.

as the song was playing and we'd we'd assign each person a verse you know i'm gonna do the first one and you go for the second one and then sometimes you'd wait an hour for it to come on again you know so you could finish it up what's the song you did that with i'll tell you the hardest one was get off my cloud by the stones it had so many words oh and fast too oh yeah and it took us a good three three hours to get that one written down but uh

It was that kind of thing. It was a friend, you know. It was something that was there. You didn't really think about it that much, but looking back on it, it was such a musical education. Well, I want to play another track from your new CD, Highway Companion, and this is a song called Down South. Is there a story behind the song? Yeah, this was a... I had, a long time ago, I had done a conceptual record about the South called Southern Accents.

And this one was inspired by a book by a fellow named Warren Zanes had written this book about the South. And I read it and I was really impressed by it. And then I started thinking, well, you know, what if I haven't been back there in a long, long time. I lived there, you know, 35 years ago.

and grew up there. But I, um, I went, you know, just kind of went back in my mind, and, um, a story started to kind of develop and, and appear. And I'm not really sure who that character is, but I know part of it's me. And, uh, I wrote it, God, I wrote it kind of quickly. I wrote it, I wrote the lyrics out first before I did, um, the music, which is unusual for me. And I, I

Then I searched for a long time to find music that created the right tonal kind of thing with the lyric and had to find a melody that went with it. So it took a little while to pull the whole thing together, but it's one that I'm most pleased with from the record. Why don't we hear it? This is Down South from Tom Petty's new CD, Highway Companion. ¶ Headed back down south ¶ ¶ Gonna see my daddy's mistress ¶

gonna buy back her forgiveness pay off every witness one more time down south the family headstones drag a bag of dry bones make good all my back loans so if i come to your door let me sleep on your floor

Sweetly down south

I never made a specific trip to meet them, but my dad was hell on wheels. He was quite a character, and he was one of those people that somehow remained likable, though he was really a cad. But I don't really know where that... I guess the line just popped into my head, and it seemed a good way to start it.

Something I want to mention about the track that we just heard. You know it has that kind of jangly rhythm guitar that you play. How did you start playing in that style? I don't know. It just appeared. I think we were inspired a lot by Roger McGuinn of the Birds and his 12-string playing and

It was just something that came to me naturally, and I kind of took it from there, and I think we've developed it into our own thing. But I'm sure it comes back, you know, from the Byrds, from... You hear that sound in a lot of early 60s records. The Beatles used it a lot, Dylan used it. And between myself and Mike Campbell, our guitarist, we've...

We just make that sound when we play now. I'm not really as conscious of it as other people are, but it just kind of happens. You grew up in Gainesville, Florida. I think there's a branch of the University of Florida in Gainesville, right? It is there, the University of Florida, the whole thing. So were you in a college part of Gainesville, or were you in a different part of town? No, I was in the redneck hillbilly part. laughter

I wasn't part of the academic circle, but it's an interesting place because you can meet almost any kind of person from many walks of life because of the university. But it's really surrounded by this kind of very rural kind of people that are...

They're farmers or tractor drivers or just all kind of game wardens, you name it. So it's an interesting blend. My family wasn't involved in the college. They were more of just your white trash kind of family. So I have that kind of background, but I always kind of aspired to be something else,

And I made a lot of different friends over the years that were, you know, passing through. What did your parents do for a living? Well, my mother worked in the tax collector's office as a clerk. And my dad had a variety of jobs. You know, at one point he owned the only...

grocery store in the black part of town. The only black grocery store that catered exclusively to black people. And so I used to go down there when I was quite young and I would just put out in the back. And so it was unusual to me that I'd play all day with black kids and then they'd bring me back to our little suburb that we lived in and it was all white kids. And

Then from there, he did a whole line of different jobs of being an insurance salesman, a truck driver, all kinds of different things. Now, you had an uncle. I guess this is a famous story in your life because you got to meet Elvis Presley on a movie set when you were 11 through an uncle of yours who was doing something on the set, though I'm not sure what. Yeah, I had an uncle by marriage who was the kind of,

He was very into film. He was the guy in town that developed all the film, and he had a movie camera. He used to film the college basketball practices and football practices. And when a movie came nearby, as a lot of them did around northern Florida, he would usually hire onto a set and work in some capacity. And he was working on...

an Elvis Presley movie in 1961, I think, Ball of That Dream, that was called. And I was invited there by my aunt, drove me down to see Elvis. And I really didn't have much idea of who Elvis was. I was only 11. But we did indeed go there. And it was quite a circus, you know, a lot of

As you'd expect, you know, mobs in the street. And he was just back from the Army. But I didn't really talk with him. I mean, he just sort of nodded my way, you know. I was introduced by my uncle as, you know, these are my nephew and my two cousins were with me. And he just, I don't remember what he said really, but I was very impressed by it. And when I went home,

I kind of scoured the neighborhood and came up with some old Elvis records, and I started listening to them, and they really took me over. These were all 50s records. I had a friend whose older sister had gone to college and left this beautiful box of 45s of rock and roll from the 50s, and I loved it. It just spoke to me.

So how long did it take after that until you started to play something yourself? Well, the idea never dawned on me until I saw The Beatles on The Ed Sullivan Show, like so many musicians did. When I saw it, you know, I didn't,

I didn't think you could just become a rock and roll singer. I didn't see how it could happen, you know, because you needed to be in a movie and have the music appear on the beach and stuff. So I didn't see how one would get that together, you know. So when I saw the Beatles...

it sort of hit me like a lightning bolt to the brain that, oh, I see, you know, you have your friends and you all learn an instrument and you're a self-contained unit. This is brilliant, you know, and this looks like a great, great job to me. And apparently it did to lots of people because very quickly after that there were bands forming, you know, in garages all over town, right?

And I was just one in thousands of little bands that started then in around 64, 65. Let me play another song that was... It's a great song, and it was a very popular song of yours. Johnny Cash recorded the song late in his life, and the song is I Won't Back Down, which you recorded in 1989. I know it's hard to talk about writing songs, but is there a story behind this one? I wrote this song...

With Jeff Lynn, we wrote it in the studio while we were mixing another song, and it came very quickly, and I was actually worried about it. I thought that it was maybe just too direct. You know, I thought, well, there isn't really anything to hide behind here. You know, it's very bold and very blunt. There's not a lot of metaphor or any, you know, anywhere to go. And, uh,

But I was encouraged by Jeff that, you know, no, it's really good. You should record this and go ahead with it. And it's turned out to be maybe, you know, the one song that's had the most influence on people that approach me on the street or talk to me in a restaurant or wherever I go or mail that I've gotten over the years. It's been really important to a lot of people in their lives,

And I'm glad I wrote it, and I'm kind of proud of it these days. And I was very, very proud when Johnny Cash did it. Well, let's hear it from 1989. This is Tom Petty. Down, you can stand me up Gates of, no, I'll stand my turn I'll keep this war dragging me down Gonna stand my ground Back down, we'll stand Oh, what's right? Just one line

You recorded that song just a couple of years after an arsonist burned down your house. The house was set on fire while you and your family were in it. Did your instincts kick in like they were supposed to when you realized that your house was on fire and that you and your wife and child had to get out of there? They kick in pretty fast when your house is on fire.

Yeah, they kicked in really fast, and it was a pretty horrific thing to happen, and I did just survive with the, you know, the clothes on my back, but I don't know. Maybe, you know, that had something to do with the songs, like I Won't Back Down and things, because I felt really elated that they didn't get me, you know? Like, I kind of just... That was the thought that was going through my head as well. You bastard, you didn't get me, you know? I...

I survived, but it's very hard to even believe that someone wants to kill you, you know. It's a very hard thing to go through. And, you know, when the police and the arson people are telling me that, you know, someone did it, I'm just going, well, surely there's a mistake, you know. It must have been a bad wire, you know. And, you know, they were absolutely sure there was no mistake, so...

The interesting thing about that is how many people called and confessed the following day. Oh, you're kidding. Really? Yeah, they were confessing from all over America. And it was like people in New Jersey would call and confess. Then I realized just how bonkers people are. It's like there are some people that are really bonkers, and you have to be careful. But that was a...

I never really talked about that much because it stunned me so deeply. And I'm sure it had a great effect on the music I did. Because I came back with this very positive, happy kind of music that I didn't want to go into any dark corner or anything like that. I was just so glad to be alive and to have escaped something like that.

You know, it was also really traumatic and terrible, but part of it made me really be extra glad to just be alive. Well, Tom Petty, thank you so much. Thanks for having me. It was nice to be here. Tom Petty spoke to Terry Gross in 2006. He died in 2017.

After a short break, we hear from filmmaker, director, writer, and now MacArthur Fellow Sterling Harjo. He co-created the popular TV series Reservation Dogs about a group of teenagers on an Oklahoma Indian reservation. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air. ♪♪

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This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. Sterling Harjo, the filmmaker, writer, director, and co-creator of the hit TV series Reservation Dogs, is a recipient of the 2024 MacArthur Fellowship, better known as the Genius Award. Harjo co-created Reservation Dogs with New Zealand director Taika Waititi.

Reservation Dogs is part comedy, part drama about teenagers on an Indian reservation in Oklahoma who want to break away from the reservation and all the dead ends it represents, while also finding reasons to stay.

The characters face generational differences and the confusion of growing up between traditional and pop culture, the spirit world, and rap music. The series shows the importance of Native traditions while mocking how tradition can be turned into sanctimonious pop culture cliches.

Harjo belongs to the Seminole and Muskogee nations, and he's made several independent films and documentaries about natives in Oklahoma where he lives. In 2023, Reservation Dogs was awarded the prestigious Peabody Award and ended after three seasons. It's still available to stream on Hulu.

Terry Gross spoke with Harjo in 2022. They begin with a scene from the first season. One of the teenagers, named Bear, has been planning to leave the reservation with his friends and start a new life in California.

He's just been knocked down after being hit with paintballs by a rival group of teens. And when he opens his eyes, he sees an Indian warrior from the spirit world mounted on a horse and dressed in the kind of traditional warrior clothes you'd expect to see in a Western. It's a funny scene, and the advice the spirit gives at the end is pretty good. Bear is played by Defero Wunatai, and the spirit is played by Dallas Goldtooth. Aho! Young warrior!

Looks as though you've tasted the white man's lead. It's only paintballs. I've had many brothers and sisters meet the same fate in my time. Are you... Crazy Horse or... Sitting... No, no, no, I'm not one of those awesome guys, no. I'm more of your, uh... I'm more of your unknown warrior. Yeah. You know my name? William Knife Man. I was at the battle of Little Bighorn. That's right.

I didn't kill anybody, but I fought bravely. Well, I didn't actually fight. I actually didn't even get into the fight itself. I came over that hill real rugged like, ah, ah. I saw Custer like that, that yellow hair. He was sitting there. Son of the morning star, that guy right there. I really hated him. So I went after him. But then the damn horse hit a gopher hole, rolled over and squashed me. I died there. This horse actually, oh. And now I'm meant to travel the spirit world, find lost souls like you.

The spirit world. It's cold. My nipples are always hard. I'm always hungry. Got it. Being a warrior, it's not always easy. You and your thuggy-ass friends, what are you doing for your people? It's easy to be bad, but it's hard to be a warrior with dignity. Remember that. In my time, we gave everything. We died for our people. We died for our land. What are you gonna do? What are you gonna fight for?

Nah, I just with you. But for real though, listen to what I said. Marinate on that.

I love that scene so much. And I love the series. Sterling Hartro, welcome to Fresh Air. And thank you for Reservation Dogs. Can you talk a little bit about coming up with a way to both satirize pop culture images of Indians and also just come up with really comedic Indian characters, but also to create a sense of understanding of the importance of traditions? It's a lot to do all at once.

Yeah, real quick, Terry. So I'm a big fan. I remember being in college, driving around listening to your show. And I was like attempting to write a film, I believe. And I remember thinking to myself, I'll know I made it when I get on Fresh Air with Terry Gross. So thanks for making my dreams come true today. Thank you so much for that. You made my day. Yeah.

But yeah, you know, I think that that character in that scene is crucial. And I think, you know, most of the time people are very precious with Native people and like, you know, this is no laughing matter and, you know, this is very serious and stoic. And that's kind of how, you know, the world is trained to view us. And we realize like we need to bake in in this show like permission to laugh with us.

And I think that that spirit character, he comes in at this moment in the pilot. And it's like if I ask most people in the world, draw a Native American, that's what they would draw. They would draw an Indian that was dressed in buckskins from the 1800s. They wouldn't draw me. They wouldn't draw any of the characters on the show. So –

It was almost like giving people some familiar territory and then turning it on its head. And it allows the audience to say, okay, isn't this funny? Like, we still think that Native people are like this. And yeah, in history, you know, some of us were like that. But isn't it ridiculous that we still think that they are? And so it gives people permission to laugh. I think it sort of welcomes them into Native humor and allows you to kind of get your footing as you watch the rest of the show. Well, we're on the subject of permission. Yeah.

I had asked you before we started, like, what word you like to use. Do you like to use Indian, Native American, indigenous? And the term that you don't want to use is Native American. But some people say that, you know, as a white person, like white people shouldn't use the word Indian. So before everybody kind of gets annoyed with me or I get annoyed with myself or you get annoyed with me, just help me out here. Like, what works? Yeah.

For me, I mean, look, I grew up, my grandma said Indian. So I'm not here to change what my grandma said. And it's what I know. I'm sorry that Christopher Columbus got it wrong, but that's what we call ourselves. And I also say native and I say indigenous, just depending on where I'm at and who I'm talking to. Those are all interchangeable to me.

And Native American is just a mouthful. You don't have to sit around. It's just a waste of time. All right. So the series is called Reservation Dogs, an homage to Reservoir Dogs, Quentin Tarantino's film. What did that film mean to you and the sensibility that he created in it, which was really something new? So it came out when I was in college, and it was right as I discovered that I could be a filmmaker. And...

There's something about Tarantino's love for cinema. It's like that's the same thing as growing up as a native kid in rural Oklahoma.

My father had a friend who worked for the cable company and that's the only way that we got cable. So I was able to watch movies for free because his friend hooked us up with a cable box that allowed us to watch HBO and Showtime. So I just became immersed in movies and pop culture. MTV was out at the time.

And I don't know, like, I think that when you're from a rural community, you know, that's kind of how you live your life. You almost like live your life

through movies and through pop culture. And it just felt like the right, I mean, first of all, it's a catchy title. I'm not gonna lie. Tyka and I came up with that. Absolutely, yeah. And then it was, well, if we're gonna have this show where these kids are living through and constantly referencing pop culture, like we have to tip our hat to the master of that. When you were growing up, were you growing up like on the reservation or near the reservation?

Yeah, well, right now there are, there's the, like right now I live on the Muskogee reservation, which is part of Tulsa. Through a lot of complicated government policy and interactions with tribal governments that I can't go into because it'd be another show. It was not identified as a reservation before, but it is now.

But if you look at Oklahoma, it used to be Indian territory, which was essentially one big reservation. It was, you know, and then of course oil and the land run and all and other things disrupted that. But this is where Trail of Tears ended. This is where all of the tribes that were forcibly removed by the U.S. government, we were brought to Indian territory, which is Oklahoma now.

So essentially it was one giant reservation. And you go an hour in any direction in Oklahoma or 30 minutes in any direction in Oklahoma, you're going to be in a new tribal territory with different tribal languages on the stop signs and on signage in the town, different culture, different customs. And I think there's something like 38 tribes here.

So you grow up different when you're in Oklahoma as a Native kid. I didn't feel different, actually. People know Native culture. People know who Native people are. And it's a very diverse state. I mean, I think that not a lot of people know about Oklahoma and the diversity here. And I don't know. It was something that I wanted to celebrate in this show, growing up in Indian Territory, Oklahoma. Yeah.

You know, in talking about the influence of pop culture on the characters, on the young characters in your show and some of the older characters, too, the younger characters are so influenced by black pop culture, by rap, by

their style of speaking. I found that very interesting. And I'm wondering if there were many black people where you were growing up. Yeah, for sure. I mean, it was, you know, mainly made up of white, native and black people. And all of those cultures mix and collide and, you know, come together. You know, the people in the show, they're not acting those accents, you know, that's where they come from. And that's how they, that's how they talk.

And, you know, as far as like rap being an influence on the culture, I don't know, I think like coming of age as rap was, you know, reaching the height of popularity in rural Oklahoma and being a native kid, we gravitated towards it. It gave native kids a culture and an identity that they could grab a hold of at a time where our own identity was a bit lost and our own identity was less celebrated and

we could grab a hold of hip-hop, and that became something that we could identify with. Sterling Harjo, speaking with Terry Gross in 2022. More after a break. This is Fresh Air.

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This is Fresh Air. Let's get back to Terry's 2022 interview with Sterling Harjo, the co-creator of the hit TV series Reservation Dogs. This year, he was awarded the MacArthur Fellowship, better known as the Genius Award. So in this series, you know, dead loved ones return as ghosts. What are your experiences with keeping up a relationship with, you know, family, friends, family?

who have died and you want to keep in your life? Were you brought up with the idea that they are still spirits or ghosts? You know, I think that part of growing up and with Muskogee and Seminole culture is death is such a part of our experience. You know, it's very community driven. You know, your cousins are like your brothers and sisters, your aunts are your extended parents.

Um, and you know, you're, you're close to your elders and everyone's, you know, a part of this, this tight community. And I was constantly at funerals. Um, someone was always passing away and that is the big mystery and the big confusion. I think for most people, it's like, wow, like they're gone, you know? Um, and in the culture, um,

you're taught that they're not gone and that you can still speak to them and talk to them. And there's ghost stories and things like that. But I just grew up with this sense of magic and there's a sense of like,

We can communicate, we can reach people in other places and there's ceremonies for it and there's different things. But I don't know, it's this, it's something that I'm fascinated with and I explore it as much as I can through my work. I mean, all of my films deal with death in some way. And if you look at season two, I mean, there's a,

There's an episode that aired called Mabel that is about the character, Laura Dannen's grandmother passing away. And it's a whole episode about her dying. And they're all at the house. I wrote it with the actress who plays Laura Dannen, Devery Jacobs. And

It's based on my grandma, my grandma passing away. And like the whole community came together. We were all there. The family was there every day, every night we were with her and people would come in and sing songs and funny things were happening outside and sad things and all, everything life was happening in this one house. And that's what I try to show in this episode. So the teenagers in your TV series, they want to leave the reservation, but

And two of them actually get out and go to California, end up coming back. What about you? Did you want to, like, get away? Because I know you're living back in Oklahoma, in Tulsa. And I know you went to college in Oklahoma. So did you feel this push and pull between leaving and staying?

Yeah, I mean, like, you know, like a lot of people, I wanted to leave. And art was kind of exploding for me. Like, I always wanted to be an artist. And when I got to college, I was kind of blown away with literature I'd never read and, like, music I'd never heard coming from rural Oklahoma. And I just, like, it just kind of expanded my worldview. And I wanted to get out and I wanted to travel.

And then I did. I traveled and I went to Oregon and different places, New York. And what I came to realize, my grandma actually wrote me a letter while I was living in Oregon. And in the letter it said, someday you should come back home and write about these Indian churches around here. And something about that. I was just getting into the idea of writing movies at that time.

And something about that sentence that she wrote me just clicked. And at that point, I'd been missing it. And it is special. And I was really realizing how special it is. And I was like, when my grandma wrote me that, I was like, wow, no one knows about where I'm from. No one knows about the people that I come from. I moved back home. And it took me to leave to realize what I had at home and how unique it is and how

how much kept secret it is. It's such an interesting community that I come from. And I wanted to be back. Can you tell us something about your parents? Yeah, my parents... My dad roofed houses when I was young.

Oh, because one of your main characters learns to be a roofer and then bonds with one of the people teaching him how. Right. And I'd never seen that on TV or movies, something that took place on a roof like that. And it was such a part of my uncle's roofer as my dad. My dad also taught martial arts since I was five. Did you learn how to fight? I did. I was a competitive fighter growing up from the age of four. I think there's video of my first fight.

My dad still teaches martial arts to this day in rural Oklahoma. And my mom worked for the tribe when I was young for the Seminole Nation.

And then worked for the Bureau of Indian Affairs. You did doing what? When she worked, she was a secretary for the chief of the Seminole Nation when I was young. You know, now what she does with the Bureau of Indian Affairs is she kind of oversees like... There was so much like crookedness done towards Native people and land ownership and mineral right ownership. Mm-hmm.

There's all of this record and things that have gone on since then. And my mom works in helping people kind of trying to figure out if there's land they owned that they didn't know they owned or mineral rights. She must be so proud of you. Oh, man. My parents are so...

overjoyed about the show. My dad said something to me the other day after the first season came out. My dad one day said to me, he said, you know, you, you gave native people a reason to hold their head up. He's like, this show has given people, native people, a reason to hold their head up a little higher. And I mean, like, you know, to hear my dad say that is like, that's better than any Emmy that I could get. Um, and just to also see the amount of people that love this show,

especially in my community, because that's who I made it for. I'm glad everyone loves it, but I made it for my community, Native people. And every year at Halloween, there's people that dress up in these fake dime store Indian clothing, and they are quote unquote Indian for Halloween. And we've all seen that growing up. We've all seen it. And my kids are going to have to see it.

All of a sudden, after season one, people, kids started dressing up as the reservation dogs. So many pictures flooded in on social media of them dressed as the reservation dogs. It's something you didn't have when you were growing up. Right, I didn't have that. And it might have made some sort of difference if I had. I didn't have that. But what I did have...

was the best storytellers in the world sitting in my grandma's kitchen telling me stories about these amazing characters that were real and or not. And I just try to transfer that to this show and to all my work. Sterling Harjo, it's really just been great to talk with you. Thank you. Thank you, Terry. For this interview. Thank you for the series. I really love it. Awesome. Thank you so much.

Sterling Harjo speaking with Terry Gross in 2022. Coming up, Justin Chang reviews Anora, the new film that won the top prize at the Cannes Film Festival. This is Fresh Air.

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This is Fresh Air. The new comedy, Anora, which won the top prize at this year's Cannes Film Festival, opens in theaters this week. It's the latest comic drama from Sean Baker, the writer and director of Tangerine, The Florida Project, and Red Rocket. And it stars Mickey Madison as a New York stripper who gets more than she bargained for when she marries the son of a Russian oligarch. Our film critic, Justin Chang, has this review.

When Sean Baker won the Palme d'Or at Cannes for his new movie, "Onora," he dedicated the award to all sex workers, past, present, and future. It was a fitting shout-out from a director who put transgender sex workers front and center in his buddy comedy, "Tangerine," and cast Simon Rex as a scheming ex-porn star in "Red Rocket." In film after film, Baker has sought to portray sex work honestly,

with none of the usual judgments or stigmas attached. But he's also a master of comic chaos, and he loves telling stories about strivers and dreamers, and putting them in situations that can blur the line between hilarious and harrowing. "Onora" is easily one of Baker's funniest works, and by the end, one of the saddest. It's a film of unflagging comic energy and roiling emotion.

both courtesy of its star, Mikey Madison, best known for her chilling supporting roles in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood and The Fifth Scream movie. She gives a dazzling star turn here as Anora, or Annie, a 20-something exotic dancer at a high-priced Manhattan strip club. Baker plunges us right into this world of neon lights and bared flesh, but his view of Annie and her fellow dancers at work is more humorous and detached than titillating.

It's a job, and Annie's very good at it, as we can see when she staggers home, exhausted, to Brooklyn every morning to catch a few hours of shut-eye. Annie is flirty and disarming with her customers, but no nonsense with everyone else, especially the boss, Jimmy. In this scene, Annie is taking a meal break in the dressing room when Jimmy barges in. Annie, I got a kid who wants someone who speaks Russian.

You know, Jimmy, the girls and I have been talking, and if your cousin doesn't start showing us some respect, we're not going to tip out anymore. All right, I'll talk to him. Who are you talking about, the DJ? All right, seriously? I shared my playlist with him, and he was very rude and dismissive. You're killing me.

Let's go. Come on. No. I'm not eating my food. That's why you have Tupperware. It keeps things fresh. He's eating his food. That kid who needs a Russian speaker is a young man named Ivan, played by a terrific Mark Adelstein. Annie speaks a little Russian. She's Uzbek American, and she and Ivan hit it off. Before long, Annie is sleeping with him on the side for extra money.

And judging by his parents' waterfront mansion in Brighton Beach, Ivan definitely has some extra money. He's the son of a Russian oligarch, and leads a life of hard-partying, coke-snorting privilege. Impetuous and immature, he whisks Annie off by private jet to Vegas, where they tie the knot. It's a fairytale romance, until Ivan turns out to be more frog than prince.

Without going into too much detail, let's just say that back in New York, some men who work for Yvonne's father are none too pleased to hear that he's wed, in their words, a prostitute. From there, "Honora" morphs from a delirious screwball comedy into a full-on action movie, starting with a nearly half-hour set piece that deploys violence in ways both funny and unsettling. Baker is playing with fire here, pushing the comic mayhem well past the point of comfort,

and sometimes putting his characters, Annie included, in real danger. Yet you sense that Annie will make it through, and not just because of the grit and ferocity of Madison's performance. Baker has zero interest in making a movie, and there have been too many, where a female sex worker becomes collateral damage. When the cowardly Yvonne flees, and Annie and the other men set out to find him, Onora shifts again, into a kind of madcap chase thriller,

influenced by everything from Preston Sturges to The Three Stooges to Martin Scorsese's classic New York Nocturne, After Hours. It's a ragged and sometimes wearying experience, but it's also furiously alive, and with a real feel for the cultural mix of Brighton Beach. It's great to see the Armenian-American actor, Karin Karagulian, one of Baker's regular collaborators, pop up as one of the henchmen tailing Ivan.

The Russian actor Yura Borisov packs some poignant surprises as a hired thug who's kinder and more thoughtful than meets the eye. As for Madison, she makes Annie a richly complicated heroine: vulnerable, defiant, lovable, and exasperating. As frenetic as it is on the surface, Anora has an unmistakable moral undertow. This may be Baker's latest story of a sex worker, but it's also a tribute to workers in general.

His sympathies are forever with those just trying to do their job, whether it's the cleaners who show up early each morning to tidy up Yvonne's latest mess, or a hairy tow truck driver who nearly derails the plot. Perhaps that's why we feel so deeply for Annie. Even as everything around her falls apart, she's too hardworking and tough-minded to be waylaid by self-pity. She may be chasing an impossible dream.

but that's what makes her one of the most vivid and memorable characters I've encountered this year.

Justin Chang is a film critic at The New Yorker. He reviewed the new film, Onora. On Monday's show, Bridget Everett talks about her semi-autobiographical HBO series, Somebody Somewhere. It's about a 40-something-year-old woman who returns home to Kansas to care for her dying sister, but feels like an outsider until she finds a place in the LGBTQ community, even though she's straight. I hope you can join us. ♪

With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley. You care about what's happening in the world.

Let State of the World from NPR keep you informed. Each day we transport you to a different point on the globe and introduce you to the people living world events. We don't just tell you world news, we take you there. And you can make this journey while you're doing the dishes or driving your car. State of the World podcast from NPR. Vital international stories every day. ♪

Hey there, this is Felix Contreras, one of the co-hosts of Alt Latino, the podcast from NPR Music where we discuss Latinx culture, music, and heritage with the artists that create it. Listen now to the Alt Latino podcast from NPR. ♪