Demi Moore's New Beginning
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This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. And recently, I saw a new horror film that left me kind of speechless. It's called The Substance. And my guest today, Demi Moore, who stars in the film, describes it as the picture of Dorian Gray meets Death Becomes Her with a Jane Fonda workout in it. It's about an aging actress who decides to use a black market drug to create a younger, better version of herself. Younger.

More beautiful. More perfect. One single injection unlocks your DNA, starting a new cellular division that will release another version of yourself. This is The Substance.

Moore stars as Elizabeth Sparkle, an actress who clings to her last vestiges of fame by hosting an aerobic show. When her unscrupulous boss, played by Dennis Quaid, sets out to replace her with someone younger and hotter, on her 50th birthday no less, Moore's character decides to inject herself with a substance, a mysterious fluid that allows her to, at least temporarily, be a younger version of herself. What?

What plays out for Moore's character is a grotesque and gory battle between the older and younger versions of herself. Demi Moore rose to fame in the 80s for her roles in movies like St. Elmo's Fire, and throughout the 90s, she starred in a series of blockbuster hits, including Ghost, A Few Good Men, and Decent Proposal, Disclosure, Striptease, and G.I. Jane. During that period, Moore became one of the highest-paid actresses in Hollywood, and

And Demi Moore joins us now. Welcome to Fresh Air. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Demi, you are not this character, Elizabeth Sparkle, but I really can't imagine anyone else but you playing her because of your relationship with the Hollywood machine. I need to know, when you read this script, was it also clear to you that you were perfect for this role?

I mean, I guess I don't think of myself from that objective point of view. I looked at this. I don't know if I was more perfect than someone else, but I definitely felt that I had a body of experience.

that really could be brought to it and that I really, I felt like I related to it and in that very human way. And so I felt like there was something that would be so deeply resonant for others. Right. There's the human element of it that I think every single woman who

Thank you.

This film, depending on where you are in life, it feels like a feminist work. It's a commentary on the drastic things that we are willing to do to ourselves when we can't accept who we are, that internalized self-hate that aging women grapple with. But the other side of it, for me, also feels like it could veer into placing too much of the blame on us women.

Because we don't want to experience all the things that comes with aging. So it's our attempt to fight the inevitable. Was that a concern or something you thought about when you were considering this role, when you were reading this script? No, because what really drew me to this role

was the exploration of not what the circumstances are, not what societal conditioning is, not what that collective consciousness of our agreement of that women's value diminishes as they age, that exists, that is changing, but does exist. But what fascinated me is what we do to ourselves. And that...

again, for me, was not even specific to women. But for the sake of exploring this, it has heightened intensity by it being set in the world of entertainment, in where the stakes and the pressures are greater. But just that idea of that violence in the way in which we can

compare and despair and this idea of it being body horror, which essentially is in the film is taking that which is a very internal experience, the way in which we can talk to ourselves. The horror internally. Yes. Yes. And that it creates a physical manifestation that does become

distorted as my character devolves and degrades in that pursuit of perfection. And also just in that idea of where we place our value.

You know, Elizabeth Sparkle has clearly, when you, you know, right from the get-go, you see that her whole life has been really focused on career. We don't see family. We don't see really social life, everything in her life.

I have to say, this is one of the most graphic body horror films that I've ever seen. And when I saw it in the theater, it was with a bunch of reporters. There was just a lot of gasping and oohing and awing and also laughing. Yes. Thank goodness. Yes. We see you and your co-star, Margaret Qualley, who plays the younger version of you, fully nude. Nudity is nothing new to you. Yes.

there are close-ups of you and Margaret. Were there intimacy coordinators on set to help you guys navigate, or how were you able to embody those characters? There are moments when you and Margaret are actually on top of each other, like on the floor. I mean, like, yeah, we can get pretty graphic. We didn't have anything like that. And, you know, we spent some time really spelling it out before we started shooting.

And then we kind of worked something in that kind of came for me in another film, which was Indecent Proposal, where I had worked it out in my deal so that I could be more free on the day.

To not be like, well, you have this much nipple showing, you have this much. To me, I find that so much more that puts you so much more in your head. And so my, you know, encouragement and suggestion is to be able to have an agreement where we know what the director is wanting, what they're looking to get. But that once it's edited together, that there is an opportunity there.

Yeah, that's great.

But in truth, I'm so grateful to Margaret because, you know, we really looked out for each other. I heard you guys had like kind of a laughing attack or just laughed at a moment when you guys were both on the floor together naked. I mean, you know, as she was like having to like drop unconsciously on top of me with her full weight and...

And, you know, and we're like on a cold, hard tile floor for hours and hours. And Margaret at one point said, thank God we like each other because otherwise this could be really awkward. And it did. I mean, like really, like I adore her. I think her performance is amazing and beautiful.

Throughout all of it, like we've enjoyed doing press, which isn't always the easiest part, but having each other even for that has been so wonderful. There's a lot of nudity.

I can't help but think about your relationship with your body because you've said for years that even at the height of your career in the 90s when you were seen as a sex symbol, you never really loved your body. So what kind of conversations did you and the director have about how far you'd go in this film and why it was actually needed to tell the story?

Well, I think, one, the nudity in this is not sexualized. It's really about introspection. And I think it, again, was a way of illustrating a depth of vulnerability because it's the emotional vulnerability that in many respects was much harder.

Say more about that because a lot of this acting, I mean, there's not a lot of dialogue. Exactly. Yeah. And if you really think about it, most of the film, I'm alone. And I think a lot of the nudity was really also about those moments that we have alone. And, you know, the...

the bareness of it as opposed to it really being about being nude. Yeah, there's this scene where you're standing in the mirror and you're naked and you're staring at yourself and you're like just letting your gaze kind of look over at yourself. And I think about

how that's such a common experience in the morning for all of us when we wake up and start the day. You mentioned how you had done so much of the prep work to emotionally prepare. I read that you and the director, Coraline, you all met and you gave her your memoir when you all were talking about you taking on this role. Yeah.

Why did you think it was important for her as she was considering you to also know your story? Well, Carly, you know, obviously had been living with this. This is a very personal story for her. She had, you know, she had been working and living with this for far longer than the point that it was being brought to me for consideration. And I think there was a very protective part of her of really wanting to make sure that

not only that the two actresses that she was bringing in were right together, but that I think really could hold this for her. And I think that she had her own levels of uncertainty and vulnerability about kind of handing it over. And...

I just felt like there was in my own story that there was perhaps something that she could take away to really know that this wasn't just something of an intellectual understanding, but that I had really walked through it on a very personal level from a much earlier time in my life. I want to play a scene from the movie, um,

In this scene, Sue, who is played by Margaret Qualley, she's misusing the substance. And Elizabeth Sparkle, your character, notices that one of her fingers has suddenly aged to an old finger, and she is desperate for help. And in setting this up, I just want to say, as part of taking the substance, you are making this agreement that every seven days you're going to move back and forth from your older self to your younger self.

But something happens and you're desperate for help because you got this old finger. And so you call the number of the company who provided the substance. Let's listen. Yes. Yes. Hi. This is Elizabeth Sparkle. I'm 503. Yes. Yes. Hi. There's been a slight misuse of the substance. A few extra hours were accidentally spent.

used, causing an alteration. So I'm just looking for the procedure to reverse it. What has been used on one side is lost on the other side. There's no going back. No. I don't know what she was thinking. And obviously, she was drunk. Remember, there is no she and you. You are one. Respect the balance, and you won't have any more inconveniences.

Oh, that was a scene from the new movie, The Substance, starring my guest today, Demi Moore. Oh, Demi, what is so interesting to me is that your character gets this second chance, this second opportunity to be young again. And instead of using it to make other choices in her life, she actually regresses. She repeats this pattern, which includes seeking approval from her boss, this man who has fired her. Yeah.

Under all of the guts and gore of this movie, it's a really subtle but profound insight, and it's a very midlife struggle for many women, myself included, because all of a sudden there's this pressure to go back, to look younger, to turn back time. And you look amazing.

It's also part of your reputation. And, of course, the Hollywood machine rewards youth. But what internal pressures have you felt over time to look and stay youthful? Was there a time period where that felt more intense for you? I don't know if I could say there's one time that's more intense than another.

But I think, again, it's where are you placing your value? It really comes down to is my value entirely placed on my external self?

Or am I finding the appropriate balance with, you know, of course, we all want to look our best. We all want to. But I really think, look, I titled my memoir Inside Out because I really feel that is the pathway to the greatest joy, happiness, and well-being. It's not something that will ever, ever come from the outside in.

Right.

Yeah.

And in the end, it's what I chose to do with it. And I think if I look at it now, while I became quite obsessive compulsive and I was overexercising and controlling my food and doing all of these things, it's what I was doing to myself. I could have easily looked at what was being said and say, so what?

And that's what's so interesting to me in the film is that in this whole thing, as you were just saying, I get this second opportunity. And I want to clarify for your audience that part of the younger me is that it's shared consciousness. So I can share consciousness between the two bodies. That when I get this second opportunity...

I do seek the same validation. I do seek, as opposed to stopping and, you know, the Sioux could have said, I'm going to have my own show.

So this character, Elizabeth, is 50. And the boss is Dennis Quaid is basically saying it's over at 50. He's overly grotesque as a studio executive. So he's over the top. But did you ever experience a shunning in Hollywood similar to this or where someone actually said to you directly, you're too old?

No, I haven't. Obviously, the film has a satirical aspect to it, and it's quite exaggerated to kind of make these points. I think aspects of that certainly exist, and more so in the past, but it was just, it was not as overt. You tell this story about... Aaron Sorkin. Yeah, and how he stood up to studio executives. He said what?

Which I didn't know until I was working on the book, which was, and I found this interview that he did, that the studio executive at that time during shooting A Few Good Men was really pushing for there to be a love scene between Tom Cruise's character and mine, which Rob Reiner and Aaron Sorkin didn't feel was appropriate for the story. It was unnecessary and...

The studio executive response was, well, then what do we have to mean more for? Which I thought was very, very indicative also of the time. But again, that was never done to my face directly.

There's a scene, one of the most powerful scenes in the film, that conveys like that loneliness we were talking about of self-hate. Your character has no friends and no family and bumps into an old high school classmate who then wants to take her out to dinner. And she ultimately just is so like she keeps looking at herself in the mirror and changing over and over her outfit and finally just decides that.

I'm not going. For me, it's one of the most heartbreaking moments and most relatable moments in the whole film. You know, I,

I think we've all been there in some degree where you go and you look in the mirror and you're trying to make something better only to make it worse. A million outfits you've thrown on the bed and the floor. And the self-doubt comes up and the questioning and the hyper-focusing. And in this case, it's like she's so close to stepping out of this situation.

you know, that she's created and she just can't do it. That, as I mentioned earlier, that compare and despair that really devolves into just absolute self-hate. Our guest today is actor Demi Moore. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.

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I want to talk a little bit about your career. When did it become clear to you that you wanted to act? I think I made a real conscious decision after spending time with the young actress Nastassja Kinski, where we were, you know, two teenagers living in an apartment building, both with our single mothers. And I was so taken, not just with her external beauty, but

But she had this embodied, comfortable way. I didn't know what it was. You know, I'm 15 years old. Whatever it was she had, I just wanted it. And so she was pursuing being an actor. And because she's German and she spoke English quite beautifully, but she didn't feel confident in reading it. So she asked me to sit and read scripts aloud to her. Wow.

And so as we did that, combined with this feeling of how do I get what she had, what this thing was within her that exuded. And she then left to go back to Europe to make the film Tess with Roman Polanski and

I just made a decision. Like, I had no idea, like, how it worked, what to do. Could I even do it? I had never acted. It's not like I acted in school. And so I just set out to figure it out. You played around with music for a little bit, also modeling. I mean, modeling definitely...

Because I figured out very early on that I was starting my, you know, to pursue acting, but I wasn't 18, but I wasn't a child actor. And so I figured out, oh, well, they would rather hire somebody who is of legal age to play 14, 13. And so because I moved out on my own at 16, I just quickly assessed that I could possibly make –

a living modeling, but I lied about my age so there was no conflict. You lied to be older. Yes, just so that there would be no question about whether I was legal to work. Right. Well, it worked out for you, right? Yeah. But wow, what fortitude you had at a young age to make those decisions. Which I can say, I can look at today and look at certain things that happened earlier in my life

And see how all of those things, and not all the things that were of nurturing or guidance and encouragement, but the things that were my challenges, the things that were painful that were happening for me, that allowed me to have the determination, the fortitude, the courage to take the kind of risk that it took to step into a world I had not a clue of ever.

And while I may have attended the school fake it till you make it, the university of, I don't think I could have even done any of that without the challenges that I had as a kid. Well, one of the big challenges was the relationship with your mother. And you write about this in the book, but...

Something pretty terrible happened to you that shaped you significantly when you were 15. Mm-hmm. Are you okay with talking about it? Sure. Yeah. It was an encounter with a man. I was 15. That was in his 50s that for—

The majority of my adult life, I would say, you know, up until 15, maybe a little bit more years ago, I always blamed myself for that. I had put myself in that position and this man trapped me and essentially killed me.

raped me and left me with this horrific question when I started to...

resist even being around him because he had befriended my mother. And that essential question when he was being even more hateful was, how does it feel to be whored by your mother for 500 bucks? Because you felt like your mom knew what his intentions were and essentially sold you to him. I think that it was a question that I couldn't even answer.

It was almost as if I today don't believe that there was an actual transaction that occurred, meaning it was not transparent. I think that my mother had asked to borrow money. And in doing so, he positioned himself to be in this apartment when I came home from school by myself. But being left with that question was hard.

One that I just compartmentalized. I blamed myself. I shut the door. And two days after my 16th birthday, I moved out. And I think there was a part of me that just started running. Because I think in my teenage mind, I think I couldn't wrap myself around that being the truth. Or if that was the truth, the level of shame around that

would mean that everything would be over. Like, what life would I have? So I don't even think I could entertain the idea. You couldn't even really look at it or face it. Nope, not at all. 15 years ago, you said, is when you started to really look at it. Yeah, I mean, maybe a little earlier, but around there, I think I'd never really... I think because I've always been extremely responsible. I've been on my own for so long.

There's no other way. And it's what's really given me, in some ways, a lot of freedom to move forward in life is that I took the blame and responsibility for everything in a way, you know, that didn't allow me to entertain the idea that his actions, in fact, were that of rape.

Was your mother still alive when you came to this realization of what had happened to you? She wasn't. How would you describe your relationship with your mother after you ran? For those years, for many years, you were estranged. I think, you know, it was, I think what's interesting, you know, is even after that, you know, I've, I, even as a very young girl, I,

I felt more like I was the mother to the mother. And there was a certain fragility that my mother had, and only much later in her life was she diagnosed as being bipolar. It wasn't really as known. And so I think a lot of her life, you know, she was trying to manage things

Aspects of mental illness that also, I think, grew within her because of undealt with trauma that she had, I think, at her core, never having really felt loved. And so my relationship with her, it was a strange for a certain last part, but I never gave up.

Because I don't think you do. Even children who are abused, I think you still hold out the hope. And there was a part of me that felt very responsible for her. How did you come to that awareness? Because I think you actually say in the book, there is this time when you become a mother where you can sometimes see your mother in a new light.

I think, you know, I also went and took care of my mother the last three and a half months of her life. And that was after being quite estranged for many years. Yeah.

And I went not with having any expectations or anger or any. I really did have a lot of acceptance of her for who she was. I didn't expect her to be any different. I didn't really expect her to be mothering to me in the classic traditional sense of it. How did you get there?

I don't know. I think that there was a part of me that always really saw her as not being as strong as I was, that allowed me to have a certain level of understanding that, you know, has, again, like many things in life, has only kind of expanded. And then I feel like when I was working on the book,

It really, you know, moved kind of the needle of my depth of my understanding, obviously, as a mother, that if I couldn't find compassion for my mother...

how could I expect my children to find compassion for me? Because isn't that how we break the chain of the transgenerational traumas? Like if I hold on to resentment, if I hold on, if I don't see her, in which part of it, it was really starting to think of my mother. I have this beautiful picture of her as a baby. And in looking at that,

I realized that she came into this world as an innocent soul, an innocent being, just as we all do. And I don't think that in, you know, her intentions she set out to be neglectful or to be less than nurturing or selfish or any of those things. And I really understood that she did the best that she could. Mm-hmm.

And more importantly, it's when I shifted to really see life is happening for me, that all of those things that occurred are what made me who I am today. And so in that way, she actually was in service to me. Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is award-winning actor Demi Moore. She stars in the new film The Substance. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.

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This message comes from Dell Technologies. This season, get premium tech that inspires joy. The XPS 16 from Dell Technologies with Intel Core Ultra processors help unlock AI possibilities. Shop now at dell.com slash deals. In the 90s, Demi, you commanded more than $12 million for your role in Striptease, where you played an exotic dancer who was fighting for custody of her child. And

And your ability to garner that high paycheck did a lot to advance pay parity for women in Hollywood. One of the things I never can find, I never read about, is exactly how you did that. I don't know. I think it just in the straight-up negotiation, it wasn't even like a huge, like I wasn't making any big demand. It was just put on the table. I wish I could say it was like a big struggle. No, it wasn't. It was actually met with a sense of,

That it was right and fair. Like to me, it was like laid out on the table that this was, you know, a fair request. It was right and fair. Many actresses credit you being able to get that number to helping them to raise their numbers. But the press painted you as this power hungry, money hungry actress before striptease had even come out. You felt like they were almost trying to tear down your success before the public could even weigh in.

And where they really came after me was with G.I. Jane because the two kind of were back to back. And I just, you know, it's just interesting. And I don't know if it was just because it was interesting.

something more interesting to write about because it was just being contrary. I think a lot of it was already trying to tear down that I was undeserving. This reputation, though, stuck with you for a long time. We know that iconic image of you on the cover of Vanity Fair. You're seven months pregnant. You're wearing nothing but your wedding ring.

You actually say that article was one of the worst things that was ever written about you. We don't talk about the article often, but it had long-lasting impacts. It wasn't a very generous or balanced piece, but you're right. Most people just remember the photograph. What did the article get wrong that kind of stuck with you? I mean, I think it was nasty tone that was portraying me as...

Having an entourage of 20 people, which it just wasn't true. You know, like it created a picture of me as being extremely demanding and super extra. Meanwhile, what she was referring to is a lot of what is standard on every movie, like hair, makeup.

a set dresser. Like, my own personal, all I had was I had a nanny because I had a baby and an assistant. Like, that's all I personally had. But on every film, you have a hair and makeup team, you have wardrobe people, you have, like, but they aren't necessarily...

Like your entourage. But the portrayal definitely led to, you know, like Rob Reiner had me come in to audition for A Few Good Men.

Because he wanted to make sure you weren't difficult. Yeah. Did it change your manner at all? Like, you still came in as yourself? Of course. I mean, did you feel that pressure, though, to show, like, I'm actually not this person? You know how you kind of step in subconsciously? I mean, I did. You do. But at the same time...

There is nothing to do except for how you be. Like, how you be. Like, how am I showing up? Let people see that I'm professional, that the work is what's important to me. And, you know, it hurt and it really kind of irked me. And at the same time, you have to step back and go, well, how is this in service to me? Because if this is somehow being perceived as

And it's not how I feel I am. Is there something I'm doing that is creating this? Last question. Many people are saying this is kind of the role of a lifetime for you. Like you are fully formed. You are in your moment. This is a culmination of your work. Do you see it that way? What does this moment mean for you? I wouldn't want to see it in terms of it being the culmination, but perhaps the launching of a

Yeah.

I'm also more autonomous. My children are grown. I have the most independence that I've ever had. And so it's just this wonderful new time of exploration and discovery. I have no expectations of where it should go. I just want to stay present to where I am and be open to the possibilities. Thank you for your wisdom, Demi. I wish you the best. And this was a pleasure. Thank you.

Actor Demi Moore. She stars in the new movie The Substance, opening in theaters nationwide on September 20th and available to stream on MUBI. That's M-U-B-I dot com. Coming up, critic at large John Powers reviews the new documentary Casa Bonita Mi Amor, featuring the creators of South Park. This is Fresh Air.

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The new documentary Casa Bonita, Mi Amor follows the creators of South Park, Trey Parker and Matt Stone, as they work to save an extravagant Mexican-themed restaurant that they loved growing up in Colorado. Our critic-at-large John Power says that the movie is filled with pleasure and the imaginative delights of Americana. Maybe because most of us come from somewhere else, Americans just love replicas of foreign places.

William Randolph Hearst's faux-European castle in San Simeon, Paris, Las Vegas, with its half-sized Eiffel Tower and mini-Louvre, or the mock alpine village you find in, of all places, Helen, Georgia. Creating a giddy atmosphere that Umberto Eco dubbed hyper-reality, such crazily ambitious simulacra fill nearly everyone with childish delight. This includes Trey Parker and Matt Stone of South Park and the Book of Mormon fame.

Although notorious for their cynical humor, both harbor a profound affection for one of the places they adored as kids, Casa Bonita, a 50,000-square-foot attraction in a Lakewood, Colorado strip mall that has been dubbed the Disneyland of Mexican restaurants.

It's an Anglo businessman's fantastical riff on an old Mexican village, one decked out with Old West outlaws, volcanoes, cliff divers, and even a gorilla that runs through caverns studded with stalactites. More than half a century after opening in 1974, complete with TV ads featuring Ricardo Montalban, this once spectacular crowd-puller had fallen on such desperate times that it was doomed to close.

Then it was bought out of bankruptcy, as is, by Stone and Parker, who vowed to save the beloved Colorado landmark and return it to its former glory. Their battle to do so is the subject of the enjoyable new documentary Casa Bonita Mi Amor.

Directed by Arthur Bradford and produced by MTV Documentary Films, the movie is a treat, weaving together great archival footage, excerpts from South Park, and Elvis' movie, Fun in Acapulco. Plus countless scenes of Parker and Stone's amused horror when they hear the latest reason why their labor of love is becoming a money pit.

After a zippy capsule history of Casa Bonita, with its Pepto-Bismol pink facade and blue fountain out front, the movie returns to the present to show everything it takes to recreate a mecca whose true meaning lay in the feelings it once induced. Because the original Casa Bonita was legendary for lousy food, they bring on an executive chef, Dana Rodriguez, who's been nominated for James Beard Awards. She takes Parker to Oaxaca so he can soak up the atmosphere and get inspired.

Yet wondrous inspiration bumps into unwondrous reality. Turns out that their new property is a dilapidated death trap in which everything—electricity, plumbing, air conditioning—must be redone. A renovation originally budgeted at $6 million suddenly balloons to a new estimate of $20 million plus.

Here, Parker, the keener of the two on the project, talks about its cost and why he wants to go ahead. Any savvy business person would say, get out now, you know, but I'm not savvy. And it was just like, that's not the point. It's trying to save something. It's trying to restore something and bring it back.

And also, it starts from a personal place. I was like, "This was my childhood, right?" And I want it for my daughter. I want it for her grandkids. I want it for my friend's kids. Matt's always been the money guy in our partnership. I was like, "So what are we gonna do?" And Matt said kind of like, "I don't know." I was like, "Oh, you don't know. So that means there's a chance."

Now, as Caso Benita Mia Moore chronicles the high price of nostalgia, it also offers an offhand glimpse at one of pop culture's signature creative teams. It doesn't take long to spot the differences between the two longtime friends. Parker is clearly the dreamy creative one. Stone the shrewd wet stone on which he sharpens his ideas. What you may find surprising is the secret sentimentality of guys whose comedy takes such pride in finding nothing sacred.

Parker, in particular, betrays a sweetness in his romantic attachment to the innocent pleasures of childhood. He's also a perfectionist. We see his artistic process, fussing over and tweaking every creative detail of the project. As their crew desperately races to have everything perfect by opening day, spending even more millions along the way, it becomes clear that Parker and Stone are chasing a ghost, or maybe a paradox.

The original Casa Bonita was a 70s inauthentic version of 19th century Mexico. But to capture its magic, this new version can't be the same Casa Bonita that Parker remembers so fondly. Just as Indiana Jones movies had used top drawer talent to emulate cheap old movie serials, so their restaurant has to meet today's expectations. Tastier food, sharper entertainment, or visitors won't find it as thrilling as the original.

To feel the same, it has to be different. By the time Casa Bonita finally reopens, there is a happy ending. Parker and Stone have done something that could hardly be more quintessentially American. They spent a fortune to make a copy of a Mexican-themed restaurant that's actually better than the original. John Powers reviewed Casa Bonita Mi Amor, now playing in select theaters.

On tomorrow's show, the real story of Donald Trump's businesses and finances. We talk with New York Times reporters Suzanne Craig and Russ Buechner, authors of the new book, Lucky Loser, how Donald Trump squandered his father's fortune and created the illusion of success based on eight years of their investigation into Trump's finances. I hope you can join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air.

Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, and Joel Wolfram. And today we welcome our new associate producer, Anna Bauman. ♪

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