Connie Chung Regrets Being A Good Girl
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Say the name Connie Chung to anyone alive during the peak of television news, and really you don't have to say much else. When Chung first appeared on TV in the 70s, it was the first time many Americans had seen an Asian woman not only reporting the news, but setting the national conversation with her interviews with heads of state and controversial figures.

For three decades, Chung has been a key player in every major news cycle, covering Capitol Hill, the White House, the Pentagon, and the State Department. She's also interviewed influential people dominating the headlines, like in 1991, when she was the first journalist to sit down with Magic Johnson, just a month after he announced his HIV status.

Connie Chung has written a new memoir that chronicles her expansive career. And she also gives us a behind-the-scenes look at what it took for her to climb to the top of this male-dominated field.

Chung has a great sense of humor, and this memoir, I have to say, is funny and also a little salacious because Chung names names in this book, from colleagues and news bosses who crossed her or made her job much more difficult than it needed to be to well-known celebrities and politicians who hit on her.

Chung got her start in local television news, and she's worked for almost all of the major television news outlets, ABC, NBC, CNN, and CBS, where she got her start and later became the first woman to co-anchor the evening news with Dan Rather. Her memoir is called Connie. Connie Chung, welcome to Fresh Air. Oh, I'm so happy to be with you, Tanya Mosley. You are a sheroe.

in our business, and I really appreciate your having me. Well, this is a pleasure and an honor, Connie. And it's also surreal because I had a chance to go back and watch elements of your career and so much of your journalism career

forecasted where we are today. Journalism really, as we know, is a continuing conversation. But in particular, your 1990 interview with Donald Trump. It's been making the rounds online for several years now. And I actually want to start off our conversation by playing a clip. Again, this is 1990 and you interviewed Trump for a show that you were hosting. It was called Saturday Night with Connie Chung on CBS. And it was a show that you were hosting

And in this clip, you ask Trump about his motivation for being so boastful about how rich he is when most millionaires are pretty private. Let's listen. What Donald Trump does, of course, is make a lot of money and make sure everybody knows it. A yacht, a mansion, a bigger mansion, an airline, two casinos.

A bigger casino? That is really incredible. There's nothing like it. There's nothing like this place. By now, his possessions are more familiar to us than what we have hanging in our own closets. His buildings? Well, you know which ones they are. I sell very great condominiums in New York. I have the best casinos in the world. They aren't that great. They're the best. Come on. Maybe if you can try and answer this question without giving me the normal spiel.

That was my guest today, Connie Chung, interviewing presidential candidate Donald Trump on her Saturday show back in 1990 on CBS. We heard you there, Connie, saying to him, what did you say? You said, I mean, they're not that great. Right.

What do you remember most about that interview? Because at the time, you actually asked your executive producer, I think, why are we wasting our time interviewing this guy? I'll set the stage. Otherwise, I'm going to get myself in such trouble, Tanya. So I was doing this program called Saturday Night with Connie Chung, and I was the only correspondent.

Because we had another format prior to that, and it really was excoriated. It tanked. So I had to then go out on stories every week to fill an hour program. I was traveling all over the country and the world and everything, and I was pretty darn exhausted.

Then the executive producer goes to me and says, we have an interview with Donald Trump. At the time, he had not planned to run for president by any means. He was a mogul. He was actually a very, he was a tabloid king because he was always in the New York tabloids. And that was his, that period of his claim to fame.

So I went, I don't want to. Are we whining? Oh, boy, did I whine. Well, you did mince words. I mean, after your interview aired, Trump did what we've seen him do to many reporters over the years. And he dug into you because you you dug into him.

Well, guilty as charged, I did. And he went on the Joan Rivers show, and at the time she had a talk show. And he said that I was—he used all those words that he is wont to use with some female journalists. He called you a lightweight. Yeah, uh-huh.

And I can't remember the exact words, but that I was basically stupid and didn't ask good questions and all of that. So...

I would see him. My husband is a crazy golfer. You know my husband, Mari Povich, who's been determining the paternity of every child in America. Yes. You are the father. You are not the father. Well, in addition to that, my husband is a very good golfer as well. I would see Donald Trump at celebrity golf tournaments in which my husband was playing. And he ghosted me.

Essentially, it was as if I were invisible. I wasn't there. Maury would say, you know Connie, and I was just invisible. You started in the early 70s, and...

In many instances, you were the only woman among these guys. In particular, you write about being on the road covering the 1972 presidential campaign. You were traveling essentially with the press corps of all men. And you realized that being funny was a way to disarm or diffuse. But did it ever feel dangerous? No. No, it wasn't dangerous. It was...

Uh, just fraught with sexism. And, um, I mean, I, I, I think they all saw me as this unusual little toy. And, uh, I... They almost seemed to you like a delight, like almost a novelty. Yes. Kind of tinged with fetish behavior, but...

That was until you started to scoop them. Well, they were surprised when I came up with a story that they didn't have. It was a little competition, you know, and I love the competition. So I just developed this sense of humor, and what I did was I tried to get them before they got me.

And I had this propensity to be much too bawdy. And it was antithetical to what I looked like. You know, I looked like a lotus blossom. And they were appalled that I had the audacity to use a bad word.

But at the same time, they found it very comical. There's this story that you tell about being a goody two shoes. Is it Timothy Krause? He wrote in his book, The Boys on the Bus, which is about covering the 72 presidential campaign, that he says this about you, quote, TV correspondents would join the wee hour poker games or drinking. Connie Chung, the pretty Chinese CBS correspondent, occupied the room next to mine. And she always...

was back by midnight reciting a final 60-second radio spot into her Sony or absorbing one last press release before getting a good night's sleep. And the next morning, he noted, you would be up and at them with the other reporters, all guys, and they were staving off a hangover. But the thing about it was they would always scoop you even still.

You were in your room doing all of that hard work, and they were at the bar getting to know the sources. You got it. And when I realized that, and I did, because I...

I would call the assignment editor in Washington, the overnight assignment editor, and I'd say, what broke overnight? Or what's on the front page of the New York Times, Washington Post, Boston Globe, L.A. Times, whatever. Whatever he had access to or whatever was released early enough. And I realized that they were getting stories. And it suddenly dawned on me. They were saucing up the campaign campaign.

manager and everyone who worked for the candidate and letting them spill the beans. So I said, end of staying in my room. I'm going down to the bar. And I did. I could drink when I was in college. I learned how to take a few down and still stay sane. I wasn't driving anywhere. I was just walking back to my room. Therein lies a great

way to learn how to be a reporter. Right. You had to get in there. You had to play that game. Exactly. The only place I couldn't enter where the men were, obviously, was the men's room. And they got stories there. I couldn't infiltrate the men's room. Connie, you've mentioned your husband, Maury Povich. You all have been married for nearly 40 years. You got married late, 38 years old.

No matter how much it seems to be common knowledge, because even for a time you guys had a show together, there's always somebody in the room that surprised you two are a couple. And it's surprising, I think, because your personas are so different, your public personas. But as you write in this book, you all seem to be the perfect match. When did you realize that?

I'm still wondering how come we are the perfect match, you know, because we are so different. But the public personas belie what is really behind our door. And the reason why I say that is because

He, although he does this, has been determining the paternity of every child in America and utters these words, you are the father and you are not the father. Do you joke with him about that at home? I just get the feeling. Yeah, I tease him. But also he says, I'm just a trashy talk show host. So he's a very...

down-to-earth, realistic guy. What belies his public persona is that he is very much a voracious reader. He's a political buff. He's a history buff. He could run circles around these pseudo-intellectuals who do interviews with politicians

important people. And I always say that to him. Why don't you do a serious talk show? And he says, and I said, you're so smart. People don't know how smart you are. And he says, as long as you know that, I'm fine. And I thought, oh my goodness, what a guy. Is it also an indication of two different things that drive you, both? Yes. The difference is, uh,

I am not serious. And you now know that, Tanya, because you've read my book. And he has to curb my enthusiasm because I'm liable to do something off the wall. It is not he who would do something off the wall. It is I. And he has to talk me out of it. Because I say, why? You would do it. And he'd say, no, no.

you have a reputation to uphold. Well, the thing about it is that publicly what you do is that it seems like you're always explaining to people who Maury Povich really is behind I Am Not the Father. And I did not realize that you actually have been doing this even before Maury had the Maury Povich show.

Back when he was on A Current Affair, there's this legendary skit that you and David Letterman did back in 1989. You were a regular guest on the show, and he decided to do a skit outside of the studio with you because you guys had really great chemistry when you were on the show. The jokes always really landed. And I want to play a clip from this skit that you all did.

What we are going to hear is you and David going to a shoe store to buy shoe trees for Maury Povich, for your husband. And David is being really snarky about your relationship. Let's listen.

Connie, let's check in here. Hi. We need to pick up some special order shoe trees. Hi. How are you? Nice to see you. Special order shoe trees for Connie's husband, Murray. He has problem feet. He doesn't have problem feet. Extra wide feet. I think they're right over here. Oh, those are beauties. Look at those, Connie.

That's great. What exactly do, what's the purpose of shoe trees? What do they do? Keeps the shape of the shoes. Well, don't your feet do that? Let me buy the shoe trees. No, really. All right, turn off the cameras. Turn off the cameras. See, on 60 Minutes, if you can get a guy to do that on camera, say, turn off, then you're set for life. Yes, you're right. How much is it? David, I can't have you pay for this. Stop the whining. Just don't whine. Please. He won't know. How will he know?

Oh, he's never... Yeah, like he stays up to see this. He does. Pretty much dozes off on his food, doesn't he?

I can't believe you found the clip and you used it. Well, that was you. That was my guest today, Connie Chung, with David Letterman on the show in 1989. Connie, he couldn't even say Maury's name right. I mean, that was part of the bit, right? You're always taking up for your husband. Yes. He refused to call him Maury. He would always call him Morty, Murray, Macy.

I mean, whatever. And I said, he said, do you want to go out for pizza sometime? And I said, sure. Can I bring Maury? And he'd say no. But, you know, I wanted to play this clip because he's making fun of Maury and it's funny. But I wondered if this kind of view of your relationship, you being this revered, highly respected journalist, Maury being seen more as a tabloid journalist, did it ever have an impact on your relationship?

Oh, no. Mari is very secure in who he is. It's the biggest thing that I admire about my husband. He knows he is this very, very intelligent person, and he's had a storied career as a journalist for many, many years. Then he hit upon the current type of talk show,

When he was doing a talk show in Washington, D.C., he was interviewing authors and politicians. I mean, every author from Gore Vidal to Tom Wolfe to Maya Angelou. And it was a classic old talk show. And he did cooking segments with Julia Child. And he did, during Watergate, he was in the thick of it. You know, he covered Kennedy's...

JFK's funeral covered Martin Luther King's assassination. So he's an old-fashioned journalist. Then he hits upon the talk show circuit, and one of his producers comes up with the idea of the paternity of every child in America. Suddenly, he has six and a half million Facebook followers and a million Instagram followers, and he's become a walking meme now.

And it's just a big kick for him. He can wax poetic about what he actually accomplishes by determining the paternity of children and fathers resume paying for their children instead of denying their existence. So it's a funny... He doesn't care what critics say. And...

And I always... So we have completely different views. His memoir is the one that I want to read next. But you actually say, if it wasn't for Maury, you really wouldn't have the career that you have. No. He talked me off the ledge many times. When I came home and I said to him, do you know what so-and-so said to me today? And he would say, no.

Don't think about it. Don't take him seriously. Take your work seriously. Don't take yourself seriously. Don't take the critics seriously. Let's have dinner. And I would seriously calm down. Our guest today is Connie Chung. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.

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It's not a straight line in that you had to play offense and defense and you had to be strategic to get the big stories in the interviews. And many times you won. That's why you're so successful. You got what you wanted, but it was never a straight line to get there. And one of the things that you really struggled with is

is being put on the celebrity beat. Barbara Walters said that she liked doing celebrity interviews, but you actually struggled with it because you wanted to be a serious news person. Yes. I didn't see the value in interviewing celebrities. Not that I didn't respect celebrities,

many actors and actresses who really practice their craft with a great deal of dedication and talent. It's the fact that these interviews tended to intrude on their personal lives. And why do we care? Why should anyone care whether, why someone got a divorce? Or if they're

intense medical problem that they've never talked about or if they're gay or straight. I mean, I didn't, I just didn't like going there. It wasn't earth-shattering news. And yet your news bosses felt like you were the one to do those, especially in the 90s. You were assigned to cover like the OJ murder trial and the Nancy Kerrigan and Tanya Harding skating fiasco and

These assignments were like an indication of something bigger happening in network television news. There was kind of this shift towards sensationalized journalism and this information saturation at the same time where the news is always on. And you were in the thick of that. That was really like your prime. How did you grapple with that at the time with your news bosses basically pushing you in that direction? Yeah.

Well, the problem was that the men could not be pushed into that direction. At CBS News, Dan Rather, who is my co-anchor, wouldn't touch it. At 60 Minutes, it was all men at the time, and they wouldn't touch it.

So they wanted nothing to do with O.J. Simpson. And frankly, I didn't either. But the management would come to me and say, Barbara Walters is getting X, Diane Sawyer is getting Y, and Katie Cork is getting Z. You have to do this for the team. I said, what?

I don't see the value in it. It's tabloid. I don't know. Tanya, I have a lot of regrets, but that was one of the biggest ones of being the good girl. Allowing yourself to be put in that category of the entertainment. Or being told what to do, resisting but...

Never being able to put my foot down and say, I am not doing it. Go find somebody else. Well, in hindsight, was there a way to do that? What would have happened, do you think, if you had said that? I don't know. I really don't know. I think they just knew I would acquiesce. I wish I had pushed them and put my foot down.

Well, the thing about the interviews that you did, you really did bring yourself to them. You tried to make them a Connie Chung interview. One of the celebrity interviews that you went after yourself was NBA basketball star Badgick Johnson shortly after he announced he was HIV positive. Yes.

And I want to play a clip of your interview with him. It was for your show Face to Face in 1991. Let's listen. You've known for about a month now that you test positive for HIV. How are you handling it? I mean, I get the feeling, see, you put the game face on for me. You know? Uh-huh. And that...

You really have some feelings that are down deep in here that you don't really want to share with me. Well, first of all, I share, you know, I've never shared my life with anybody publicly, you know, because that's just me, you know, at home.

is at home. Now, what you want to give to the public, that's what you give. Now, with this situation, I'm giving everything from my heart. Really? Yeah. I mean, I came out to say I have it to help people. That was my guest, Connie Chung, interviewing Magic Johnson in 1991, just a month after he announced that he was HIV positive. And Connie, I know you just mentioned how

You really didn't want to do the celebrity interview because who cares if, you know, about someone's personal life. But this was a story that had such cultural and social significance because of HIV at that time frame. How did you get that exclusive? You're so right, Tanya. The reason why I wanted to get it was because HIV, AIDS was at the, it was a front burner story.

And when Magic sacrificed himself and his reputation, his career, everything came out. He was such a gem. I used to kind of know Magic because I did the news in Los Angeles. And when he came on live with the sports reporter at the time...

He would always say with his big, beautiful smile, say hi to Connie. His smile is infectious. He actually asked me to go have some soul food with him and his very tall friends. We went to Maurice's snack and chat. It was the most incredible moment.

covered fried chicken I had ever had in my life. And I wolfed it down. At that time, I was young and I could eat anything I wanted and it didn't show up in bad places. Now there's a festival going on below my waist. I said, where the heck did that come from? But I thought to myself, I'm

I could get that interview because I know him and I'm kind of his friend. And then when I called some other people in L.A., they all said, ah, Magic's my friend. I'll be able to get that interview. I thought, uh-oh. But you actually did it. I did. How did you do it? I flew to L.A., went straight to his agent's office, and I squatted. I actually...

became a squatter. I sat outside his office. His assistant said, you know, he's not going to do, the agent is not going to talk to you, and Magic is not going to do the interview with, and I said, but I'm his friend, and she said, yeah, everybody's his friend. So I sat down, and I said, I'm not leaving until he leaves to go home. So I squatted, and he had only one door to get out.

He finally agreed to... He had to pass you. Yeah. And somehow he talked to Magic, and Magic said, okay. I was just so happy because it was a big, a big interview. And Magic was too kind.

Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Connie Chung. She's written a new memoir that chronicles her life growing up with her four older sisters and parents who migrated from China. And her career as the first woman and Asian American to anchor a national network news program in the U.S. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.

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And enjoy free shipping on any U.S. orders over $75. Discover the versatility of Viore clothing. This is Fresh Air, and if you're just joining us, my guest is trailblazing television journalist Connie Chung. We're talking about her new memoir, in which she chronicles her life and her rise through the ranks in TV news, becoming the first woman and Asian American to anchor a national network news program.

Chung is also known for her interviews with influential figures dominating the headlines. When we left, we were talking about her 1991 sit-down interview with NBA superstar Magic Johnson shortly after he publicly announced his HIV status.

What's so surprising to me about that story, or like it just reveals, it gives us like a look behind the curtain, is your book, as well as this book I read a few months ago, it's a biography about Barbara Walters. It just showcases how even at the height of your career, because you were very well known then,

You are out there getting your own stories. There weren't bookers. There weren't producers who were trying to get these folks for you. You literally were squatting in order to get this interview. You know, Barbara Walters taught me that.

I knew that she picked up the phone herself. She wrote a letter. She faxed. She called. She nudged. She would say, let's have lunch. And I would call it being barbered. And she barbered me. When I was fired from the CBS Evening News, she called me and started barbering.

trying to get the first interview with me when I emerged from my bunker. It was just remarkable. You know, Barbara and I had a lot in common. She was clearly the pioneer and paved our way. But

She was the breadwinner in her family because her father's nightclubs tanked and she had to take care of her mother and her father, support her mother and her father and her disabled sister. I was the breadwinner in my family as well for my mother and father. I supported them till the day they died. From about 25 on, I was their parent. We both...

co-anchored with someone who despised us, a man. We were both fired after two years. We both adopted a child. We both married nice Jewish boys, although I think Barbara married maybe two or three. But, you know, I really did, I admired Barbara because she paved our way.

Well, the thing about the approach, I wonder, did you ever feel conflicted about it? Was there ever any question for you around the integrity of being somewhere along the line of chummy with your potential? Oh, yes. I mean, you know what, though? The difference between Barbara and me is that I actually avoided...

socializing with anybody, actually. And I was very private in the sense that if I thought I was going to potentially interview someone, I made sure that I would not socialize with them. But who, you know, it's hard to predict, but Barbara socialized with everyone. And that's how she made her connections with

She socialized with politicians and Hollywood and potential interviewees. Maury and I stayed home all the time. We were so boring that if somebody asks us to go have dinner, we have to think about it for a few months.

And he's officer-friendly. I'm the one who's even more antisocial in the sense that I want to wash my face and take off my makeup and look scary. And I don't want anybody else seeing me looking scary.

Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Connie Chung. She's written a new memoir that chronicles her life growing up with her four older sisters and parents who migrated from China. And her career as the first woman and Asian American to anchor a national network news program in the U.S. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.

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But it was the day that you were named co-anchor with Dan Rather. You call it the best day of your professional life. It was May 14, 1993, and it was a huge deal because Barbara was the only other woman to ever anchor an evening news program. But this relationship that you had with Dan Rather, how would you describe it? On the surface, it was very superficially...

I mean, we seemed as if we were both professional and doing our jobs. But it was pretty clear to me that he didn't want me there. I don't blame him totally because he had...

Walter Cronkite's chair for many years and had to move over a few inches to make room for me. I became the first co-anchor at CBS. And he really, I think they must have held a gun to his head because I can't imagine that he would have done it voluntarily. So there I was. And I do believe that had I been

another man? Had I been an animal? Had I been a plant? He would not have wanted me to share. He would not have wanted anyone to share that seat with him. It was not his cup of tea. Well, there were so many rules back then.

With male and female anchor pairings, one being that men had the upper hand on who even spoke first. Yes. Jane Pauley had to endure that when she was co-anchoring with men. And you found that out when you were filling in for her on the Today Show. Yeah, could not say good morning and could not say goodbye. Bryant Gumbel had to say it first. That's right. And she fought it.

And she acknowledged that she lost. And I didn't know that at the time. I thought, how could she acquiesce to this kind of ridiculous rule? And so I tried, and I lost too. So I was, you know, hoping that I could set a new term for my substitution period when I was substituting for her during her pregnancies.

You know, Kanya, I kind of teased everyone up in the intro talking about how you named names in the book, and I won't give it all away, but did I read it right that former President Jimmy Carter might have hit on you? It wasn't the classic hit. I was sitting next to him at Black Tie Dinner, and he pressed his knee against my knee, and then he looked at me and smiled, a big smile.

It was just darn creepy. How did you handle situations like that? Because for sure, though, presidential candidate George McGovern made a move on you. He did. It was, he just tried to kiss me and I stepped back and he stepped back. So it's not as if, you know, this was any overt action. It was, it was a move. And, yeah.

As grown up and as experienced, I tried to be... I would always be shocked at these events. I really was. I mean, as experienced as I was, I was terribly naive at the same time. So when something like these things would happen with presidential candidates or former presidents, I would...

literally be very surprised and shocked because they weren't going way overboard. It's just, where did they get the idea that they could do this? The audacity. Do you still have that thing you reference many times in the book? Do you still have that male envy inside of all of your accomplishments? Yeah. How does that show itself? Like, what is that envy? Just the power that they have?

Yes, it's the automatic respect that men get just by virtue of the fact that they're men. I think we are perpetually trying to prove ourselves, and I think we've made great progress. I think women and minorities have made great progress. But Asians suffer this incredible Asian hate these days, which has reverted back to an era

peculiar, I mean not peculiar, but horrible results. Women have not reached a level of parity. I think we can't sort of quietly sit and see if it's going to happen. We just need to continue to move forward. I know that you talk with a lot of young folks who are television correspondents and reporters and anchors and you watch the news now and

Do you see a difference? Do you see a change in that dynamic? What do you notice when you watch TV news today? Well, I really appreciate the investigative reporting in television news and alt print everywhere. Anytime I see an investigative report, I'm impressed. What I don't like, of course, is if I see opinion.

And there is a lot of that. I would really like the news to swing back to objective, honest, credible, straight news. And I know a lot of people, you know, people I just run into want facts. That's all they want. Do you miss it? Only when I see...

When I'm watching an interview on television, I want to throw my shoe at it. If somebody isn't asking the question, the next question that I would ask it, it doesn't do a follow-up. It's very strange. I miss that, the interviews and being able to dig deeper, but I also miss the joy of going after a story.

That's worthy. And I know it sounds really old-fashioned, but it's the, if I can change a government wrong or change an attitude regarding social ills or whatever, something like that, I think it's so gratifying.

And I know a lot of my friends still feel that way as well. And they get to do it sometimes. But sometimes the ball is rolling over them. And they're just lucky to be still in the business. And I'm happy for them because I'm looking in from the outside. Connie Chung, thank you so much for this conversation. Tanya? Yeah.

I think you did the best interview that I've done on this, that I've ever done. Seriously. You're a hottie, not only as you, I've seen in pictures, but you're a really, really good interviewer, too. Well, this was such a pleasure, Connie. Thank you, Tonya. You were great. I mean, seriously. Connie Chung's new memoir about her life and career in television news is titled Connie.

Tomorrow on Fresh Air, Maggie Haberman of The New York Times on reporting on Donald Trump then and now. Over the course of 25 years, Haberman has broken many Trump-related stories. And lately, she's been writing about the presidential campaign and the investigations into Trump. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. ♪♪

Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Yakundi, Joel Wolfram, and Anna Bauman.

Our digital media producers are Molly C.V. Nesper and Sabrina Siewert. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley. This message comes from NPR sponsor Merrill. Whatever your financial goals are, you want a straightforward path there. But the real world doesn't usually work that way. Merrill understands that.

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