Shownotes Transcript
Support for NPR and the following message come from Chevron. Chevron's offshore platform, Anchor, is designed to help safely produce oil and natural gas with high-pressure technology. That's energy in progress. Visit chevron.com slash anchor.
From WHYY in Philadelphia, I'm Tanya Mosley with Fresh Air Weekend. Today, Ta-Nehisi Coates talks about his trip to Senegal and reflects on his ancestors taken from that side of the ocean and sent to their enslavement in America.
Coates is best known for his Atlantic magazine cover story, The Case for Reparations, and for his book Between the World and Me, which he wrote as a letter to his son about what he'll face as a black man. We'll also hear from actor, comedian, and activist John Liquizamo. His
His latest project is a docuseries on PBS about the history of Latinos in the Americas, covering thousands of years from pre-Columbian Inca, Maya, and Aztec civilizations to the fight for Latino civil rights. And also, Ken Tucker reviews Bob Dylan's new collection, the 1974 live recordings. That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend.
This message comes from Apple Card. If you love iPhone, you'll love Apple Card. It comes with the privacy and security you expect from Apple. Plus, you earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, which can automatically earn interest when you open a high-yield savings account through Apple Card.
This message comes from NPR sponsor Merrill. Whatever your financial goals are, you want a straightforward path there. But the real world doesn't usually work that way. Merrill understands that.
That's why, with a dedicated Merrill advisor, you get a personalized plan and a clear path forward. Go to ml.com slash bullish to learn more. Merrill, a Bank of America company. What would you like the power to do? Investing involves risk. Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner & Smith Incorporated, registered broker-dealer, registered investment advisor, member SIPC.
This message comes from Dell Technologies. This season, get premium tech that inspires joy. The XPS 16 from Dell Technologies with Intel Core Ultra processors help unlock AI possibilities. Shop now at dell.com slash deals. This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Terry has our first interview. I'll let her introduce it.
My guest, Ta-Nehisi Coates, is best known for his book, Between the World and Me, which was written in the form of a letter to his 15-year-old son about what it means to be a black teenager and a black man in America.
It won a 2015 National Book Award. His Atlantic magazine cover story, The Case for Reparations, sparked a national conversation about the historical ways in which black people were denied opportunities to create generational wealth that have led to continuing financial and educational inequality.
His new book, The Message, is about what he learned about race and identity visiting three different places. In Senegal, he thought about his ancestors and visited the fort on the island of Gorée, the final stop for some captured people before being forced onto a ship, taking them to enslavement in America. In South Carolina, he met with a high school teacher who was prevented from teaching his book Between the World and Me because it made some students feel uncomfortable and ashamed to be white.
In Israel and the Occupied Territories, he reflected on how victims can become victimizers. The message is written in the form of a letter to his students at his alma mater, Howard University, where he is now the Sterling Brown Endowed Chair in the English Department. Ta-Nehisi Coates, welcome back to Fresh Air. I want to start with your trip to Africa, to Senegal. It sounds like you've been wanting to go for a long time, but you kept putting it off. What was holding you back?
Well, first of all, thanks for having me, Terry. And that really is a great question. I think the first thing to say is that I became a international traveler relatively late in life. I got my adult passport when I was 37 years old. And so my experience with travel was not particularly diverse to begin with.
And what travel I did, I think up until the writing of this book, what international travel I did for the most part, I think I thought of as leisurely for the most part. Going to Senegal was not that. And I think on some level, I always knew that. Like, it was a trip that I knew I had to take. But I think I, in the back of my mind, knew that I would have to confront some things later.
that it would not be a vacation, that it would not necessarily be relaxing, that it would be more akin to a pilgrimage of sorts. And that's kind of what it turned into. So what made you decide the time had come? I couldn't keep putting it off. I mean, that's the fact of the matter. I was putting it off. I don't know that I had the words at that point in time to tell you why I was putting it off.
But I was. I was. And I had a reaction that I cannot repeat on radio as the plane descended out of the clouds. And I looked down and I saw the buildings of Dakar shooting up. And it is not a reaction I've ever had in anywhere else that I've been. Describe the reaction more. I uttered a profanity. And I didn't mean to. And it came out of nowhere. And I was shocked myself.
to hear me utter that profanity. But I think it was evidence of some things that I really had been burying that had to be confronted. Like what? There is, when you're black in this country, Africa, or a story that's told about Africa, is a weight, and in many ways it's a cudgel that is used to beat on us. And it's historically been used to beat on us. And I emphasize the story of Africa, not necessarily Africa itself, but the story of it.
And the story of it goes something like this. It is a dark continent filled with jungle and uncivilized people. And by uncivilized, I mean people that have never done anything, people who are barbaric and violent and are at a lower order of humanity.
And that story of Africa is as at least old as enslavement. You know, it hasn't always been the story of it, but it is, you know, one that is, you know, pretty, has its origins in enslavement. And thus, it's the story that most African-Americans are raised under the weight of. But what happened with my parents' generation was that a counter story was told. And that counter story sought to take the narrative, the racist narrative of Africa and
And go to the other end and say, in fact, this was a place of great kingdoms, of great people who had done great things. And we were descendants of those great people. And you see that in the adoption, for instance, of
People in my generation, where I think it really, you know, began to be popularized with African names, for instance, African traditions, the creation of ostensibly holidays that, you know, claim to have African roots, although, you know, they really are African American, but just an attempt to reclaim your roots and recreate a connection with the place. But your name is an example of that. My name is very much an example of that, which this is very difficult to say. I mean, I write it obviously has always been a point of contention.
For me, I think in my head, it calls attention to itself. It's unusual even being born into a community where many people have names that are unusual by American standards. My name was still very, very much unusual. But I think what my parents sought to do from the moment I was born was inure me to
against the racism of culture that pervades American life and really takes Africa and the story of Africa as its root.
And what they sought to do was throw it back. And what they picked for me was an ancient Egyptian name that refers to the ancient kingdom of Nubia in the south, the place of ostensibly black kings and black kingdoms and black queens and great deeds that were done by black people. And to root me in that as a counter to the racist narrative that I would undoubtedly hear as I went through my life.
So of all the places in Africa you could go to, you chose Dakar, Senegal. Have you traced your ancestors to that place? I have not. I mean, I have kind of, you know, I do have some ancestry there, but that wasn't what I had particularly in mind. I chose Dakar because I had already had an interest in French culture.
It was a language that I studied, that I continue to study. And this is not in the book, but when I was a much younger man, a boy in fact, I was a drummer and I played the djembe drum and I played in a style that came out of Senegal. And so I had this kind of connection to it in my mind already. And so it just seemed like the place to go. So even though you didn't have ancestors here,
that you know of that could be traced to Senegal, you did feel like you were in some kind of communication with ghosts there, with the ghosts there. I did. I did very, very much. Very, very much. And I, you know, it's like, I guess what I would say about that is, like, I've done those ancestry DNA tests that, you know, trace you to certain... And there is something there, like, there is some percentage of me that comes from Senegal, right? Or comes from the area that, you know, became Senegal. But it just...
That didn't really matter. You know what I mean? Like that wasn't really significant. And I think I was so dismissive in some respects. I took so much of an empirical approach to this that I was shocked to get there and have this intense emotional reaction. Now, all the black people listening to this are saying, duh. And maybe you would say, duh, given that I had put it off. Like maybe that says that I should have known that like on some level I did know.
that there would be some sort of intense emotional reaction. But I'm telling you, Terry, I've never felt anything like that in my life. Was there a particular moment that sparked that feeling for the first time? There were a few, but the one that I think about most is I stayed in a very, very nice hotel that was on the beach. It's hard for me to even call it a beach, but it was on the beach of Senegal. And I...
Got there that morning, took a nap, I think, woke up for dinner, got dressed for dinner, walked outside. And on this beach, there were people very clearly vacationing. People with their kids and frolicking in the water. And there was one of those really fancy pools that was kind of level with the ground. And people were serving drinks. And there was a DJ. And I went and I sat down. And the restaurant I sat down in, which was attached to the hotel, was outside. And, um...
I sat down, and where I was seated, I could look out onto the Atlantic Ocean. And I knew that what I was feeling at that moment was not what everybody else there was feeling. It was like I was at a funeral, and everybody else was at a wedding. That's what it felt like. Because the people who were enslaved in America, who left from that part of Africa, crossed the Atlantic Ocean. Yes. In the Middle Passage.
And like, I'm looking out and my family, as I say in the book, is from a small town called Berlin, Maryland on the Eastern Shore. And when I was a child, we would go to Berlin and Ocean City, Maryland is not that far from there. And Ocean City is right on the tip of the edge of Maryland. You literally can swim out into the ocean there.
And I would do that every summer with my mother. And I would see my family that had been in that region, you know, for as long as we can, you know, trace back. And then there I was on the other side of the ocean, you know, at this place where this epic, this story that is my life, that was my parents' life, began. And there was an overwhelming feeling that came from that.
Did that feeling get more intense when you went to the island of Gorée and visited the fort where some captured people were sent to American enslavement? Yes. And once again, I emphasize how unprepared I was because...
There was a large body of scholarship on Goree that points out that, you know, originally Goree was sold largely to African-Americans and people in the black diaspora at large as this point of no return where some, you know, untold numbers, you know, millions of enslaved black people had passed through this one specific door. And it was a grand story, the story, you know, the kind of story that we had hungered for. And, you know, of course, scholars got a hold of the story. It turned out not exactly to be true. And so I was aware of that scholarship.
And so I said, OK, I got to go to Gorée because, you know, can't be black American and come to Senegal and not go to Gorée. So I'm going to go to Gorée. You know, as casually as I'm speaking right now is as casually as I guess I was thinking about it. And, man, I got on that ship, that shuttle that takes you from Dakar out to Gorée, which maybe takes about 20 minutes or so.
And that shuttle pulled off and it was early in the morning, about 7 a.m. I had went at that time because I wanted to avoid the tourists. And I was up on the second level looking out. And when that shuttle pulled off, you know, I had all of the feelings in the world. They all converged on me and they converged on me, you know, with with even more strength. Once I got to the island, as I walked around and this is what I mean about the power of imagination is.
Did you imagine yourself being one of the people who was about to be enslaved if they survived the trip? I didn't picture it like that. What I imagined is my many, many, many, many, many grandmothers who were taken in that way. That was what I saw. That was what it did. And that just, that hit hard.
We're listening to Terry's conversation with Ta-Nehisi Coates about his new book, The Message. We'll hear more of their conversation after a break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
This message comes from Viking, committed to exploring the world in comfort. Journey through the heart of Europe on an elegant Viking longship, with thoughtful service, destination-focused dining, and cultural enrichment on board and on shore. And every Viking voyage is all-inclusive, with no children and no casinos. Discover more at viking.com.
Thank you.
that's grounded in personalized financial advice so that as clients' needs change, the financial advice will also change. For more information and important disclosures, visit Ameriprise.com slash advice. Ameriprise Financial cannot guarantee future financial results. Securities offered by Ameriprise Financial Services, LLC, member FINRA, and SIPC.
This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Ta-Nehisi Coates. He's best known for his book Between the World and Me, which won a National Book Award, and his Atlantic Magazine cover story, The Case for Reparations. His new book, The Message, is about his reflections on race, slavery, colonialism, and identity on trips to South Carolina, Senegal, Israel, and the West Bank.
I want to talk with you a little bit about language because part of the book is about being, you know, teaching writing and literature at Howard University and about how you fell in love with language when you were really young, how your mother taught you to read before you were even in school. And...
One of the examples you give is like falling in love with Shakespeare. I am one my liege. Yeah, in my liege. Exactly, exactly, exactly. So I want to read the passage that you quote in here that you fell in love with. So this is from Macbeth. And I'm just going to read this. Second murderer speaks. I am one my liege.
Whom the vile blows and buffets of the world hath so incensed that I am reckless what I do to spite the world. First murderer, and I another, so weary with disasters, tugged with fortune, that I would set my life on any chance to mend it or to be rid on it.
I'm smiling as I listen. I'm not exactly sure. I have a sense of what that means, but I'm not exactly sure. And I can't I don't know how old you were when you fell in love with that passage. But, you know, the problem that everybody runs up against when reading Shakespeare is all these like now archaic words and like.
Oh, but they're beautiful words. They are, but... And they're words we shouldn't have lost. Like, actually, you know, do you really want me to break this down? Yeah, yeah, yeah, do it. So, obviously, I am one of my lieges talking to, you know, somebody who is, you know, of high royal status, whom the vile blows and buffets of the world. I mean, that was just
Once I got it, that was incredible. What he's saying is the cruel blows and buffets, these attacks that I've endured that are vile, that I didn't deserve, have so incensed, they've so angered me that I am wrecked.
This is what I do to spite the world. You know, there's language that I can't use here. I don't care, you know, what happens. I'm so upset by how cruelly this world has treated me that I really don't care. You know, and then the second murder says, you know, and I another.
Me too. So weary with disaster. Me too. Gay bassist, me too. You know, I'm weary with disaster, like the hyperbole. I'm weary with disaster, tugged with fortune, not misfortune, tugged with fortune. You know what I mean? That would set my life. I would give my life. I would put my life on the table, you know, to mend it or be rid on it, to mend it, to fix this or I'm out. You know what I mean? And I heard that and I said, man, I know people like that.
I know what that is. I know what that is, to feel that you are so, that you've been so cruelly mistreated by the world that you would, you don't really care about the world. You would do anything. And on top of that,
that you feel that you would do anything to mend it or be, you know, to be rid on it. Like either this gets fixed or I'm out. You know what I mean? Like that is in, you know, all the gangster rap that's in hip hop. That's in, you know, all our movies and, you know, minister society. I think about old dog. I mean, that, that is a ethic that is really, really strong. And anybody who's come up close to the street, we're recognized. And to think that,
The realization that hit me was that it was some 500 years old, that here I was in the 1990s in Baltimore City public schools seeing this. And some dude 500 years before who knew nothing about the street, who knew nothing about me as a black person, but knew humanity could see this.
Now that's powerful. That is powerful. I love this. You're probably a great teacher. And I had a great teacher who read all of Hamlet out loud to us. Oh, I would have loved that. It was great. And she explained all of the like, I never heard that word before. She explained all those words. She explained the meaning. It just became beautiful.
So I don't want anyone to think I'm opposed to Shakespeare because he's not relatable. No, I mean, I like conferring then on younger strengths. I mean, like younger side as Hamlet. But like all of that language is incredible. It's beautiful, beautiful language. And you see, we as writers, what we should be doing and what I try to teach my kids to do is like your job is to use all of these tools that you have.
Even in ways that people, you know, may not think are correct or would not automatically occur to them to clarify as much as you possibly can. You lived in Paris for a year. I don't know how good your French is, but it's probably not quite as good as your English. No, no, pas du tout. So what was it like for you to spend a year in a place where you couldn't use your greatest gift, which is language?
I mean, you could use it, but not to its fullest extent. It was thrilling. Why was that thrilling? Well, there's a part in the book where I talk about, you know, where I'm in Dakar. And it's like either the second day I'm there, I believe. And I'm trying to figure out how to eat, you know, how to get lunch. And all I have is, you know, my mangled French. And they're speaking, you know, a mix of French and Wolof. And I've been recommended to this restaurant. And I walk in and I just sort of stand there and nobody says anything or anything.
does anything and I have to figure out how to get to the table. And it's really not that big of a deal, but it stressed me out. And I am not somebody who likes horror movies or roller coasters. But what I discovered was I am a thrill seeker. And like that moment of having to figure out how to navigate, ultimately getting to my table and then sitting there with this bowl of heaping rice and fish,
I felt so incredible at that moment. And Paris and France, and I think to some extent anywhere in the world you are where you don't speak the language, and English is not the predominant thing, it's like that. You go outside and you feel like you're on roller skates the whole time, and everybody else is just walking normally. That is beautiful. That discomfort is...
Like, that's the stuff of life for me, you know? Like, that's where I should be. I shouldn't be somewhere where people are, you know, telling me, you know, how honored a writer I am and how great I am and how much they love my books. No, no, no, no. I need to be somewhere where people don't care, where I'm falling over myself, where I'm not conjugating correctly, where I'm tripping, because that's the place where I'm actually getting stronger. You know, I loved it. I still do love it.
Ta-Nehisi Coates, thank you so much for coming back to our show. Thanks for having me, Terry. Ta-Nehisi Coates' new book is called The Message. He spoke with Terry Gross. Bob Dylan and the band toured together in January and February of 1974 in a series of 40 concerts in 21 cities that resulted in a live double album called Before the Flood, which was released later that same year.
But the amount of music available from that heralded now 50-year-old tour has just increased dramatically with the release of a massive 27-CD set called the 1974 Live Recordings. It captures some of the most raucous rock and roll Dylan has ever made. Rock critic Ken Tucker listened to all 431 songs in this collection and has this review. ♪ Say you love me and you are loving about you, baby ♪
That locomotive power and rhythm, the headlong, careening pace, the way the vocals are shouted into a gale-force wind created by the guitars, the drums, and the yelling of the audience.
That's the way Bob Dylan and the band commenced many dates on their 1974 tour, with a steamrolling version of Most Likely You'll Go Your Way and I'll Go Mine. The version I played to start this review is from the January 30th show at Madison Square Garden. Here's how they grappled with Tough Mama, a rollicking barroom brawl of a song from Dylan's then-current album Planet Waves in a Philadelphia afternoon show. Tough Mama, me checking on your bones
When Bob Dylan first toured with the band, then called the Hawks, in 1966, it was soon after he'd gone electric and his folky fan base came out to boo him. Guitarist Robbie Robertson wrote about how depressing it was to go from town to town and face such hostile disapproval night after night.
One way to hear the beginning of the 1974 tour, therefore, is as Bob's revenge. He and Robbie and drummer Levon Helm, bassist Rick Danko, keyboardists Garth Hudson and Richard Manuel greet the now adoring fans with shocking aggressiveness, their instruments blazing every night, a high noon showdown. ♪
That's the song that kicked off the entire tour in Chicago, a deep-cut obscurity called Hero Blues, which was never played again.
The standard set list for this tour included such Dylan touchstones as Like a Rolling Stone, Lay Lady Lay, and Forever Young. But there's not a trace of nostalgia in these performances. You have to understand, big star acts just did not play their hits live in this manner 50 years ago.
The idea had always been to reproduce, to the best of one's ability, the sound of the studio recordings, and then toss in some well-rehearsed spontaneity to make the crowd feel it was getting a unique experience. But Dylan and the band gave new meaning to the term bang for your buck. They detonated, exploded these songs. You might have known what tune you were about to get from the opening chords, but you sure as heck couldn't imagine the frenzy of what was to follow. ♪
You're dressed so fine, so dime in your frame, didn't you? Because if you were a dime, you thought that was all kidding you. You used to laugh about having to talk so loud, seem so proud, about having to be scrounging around to make your next meal. How does that feel? How does that feel?
There was a fair amount of revisionist thinking about this tour in the years following it, with some commentators saying the music was too loud, rushed, and messy, that Dylan was willfully mangling his own songs. Dylan himself contributed to this revisionism by giving interviews putting down the tour.
He told Cameron Crowe,
Listen to the way Garth Hudson mimics on his keyboard the prissy phrasing Dylan uses to begin a pretty terrible version of Ballad of a Thin Man. You walk into the room With your pencil in your hand See somebody naked You say, who is that man? You try so hard But you don't understand What you're gonna say when you
That was from a Philadelphia afternoon show. Now listen to the far better, more animated, more committed version of the same song he performed the next night in the same city. You walk into the room.
Bob Dylan and Garth Hudson are now the only ones alive from the six men on stage here.
I had a great time listening to these 27 discs over a number of days, and I never felt I was dwelling in the past. Dylan and the band's sometimes exhilarated, sometimes exhausted, always craving a change music suits the era we're living in. It's 50 years old, but it's also right on time. Nobody feels any pain Tonight as I stand inside the rain Everybody knows
Baby's got new clothes. But lately I see her ribbons and her bow. Ken Tucker reviewed Bob Dylan's 1974 live recordings. Coming up, we hear from actor, comedian, and activist John Liquizamo. His latest project is a docuseries on PBS about the history of Latinos in the Americas. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
This message comes from Sun and Ski Sports. Soccer at 6, football at 7, leave work at 5, but dinner? Who knows? And don't forget the weekend tournament madness. At Sun and Ski Sports, they've got the gear to help parents survive and maybe even enjoy it.
Comfy Viore activewear, hocus, and rumple blankets for the perfect sideline setup. Don't miss capturing those game-winning moments with a GoPro. This sports season, Sun & Ski Sports has everything you need to keep it together, sort of.
Support for NPR and the following message come from Amazon Business. Everyone could use more time. Amazon Business offers smart business buying solutions so you can spend more time growing your business and less time doing the admin. Learn more at amazonbusiness.com.
This message comes from NPR sponsor, Rosetta Stone, an expert in language learning for 30 years. Right now, NPR listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership to 25 different languages for 50% off. Learn more at rosettastone.com slash NPR.
This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Our next guest is John Lakewazamo. For the last four decades, we've watched him go from a one-man show and stand-up comedian to television and TV actor, activist, and now educator.
His latest project, an ambitious docuseries on the history of Latinos, feels like an inflection point for a man who has spent his career asserting himself as a Latino American while also discovering his place in this country.
The new docuseries, now airing on PBS, is called Voces, American Historia, The Untold History of Latinos, which he co-created with director Ben DeJesus. It's like a textbook on screen, with Leguizamo at the head of the class, exploring Latino contributions to the Americas over thousands of years.
If this sounds familiar, that's because this series is an evolution of Leguizamo's 2018 one-man show called Latin History for Morons, which aired on Netflix.
John Leguizamo is an Emmy and Tony Award-winning performer who began doing stand-up in the 80s and gained critical acclaim for his one-man semi-autobiographical shows about growing up in Queens, including Mambo Mouth and Freak, where Leguizamo portrayed dozens of characters from his life growing up in Queens, including friends, relatives, and neighbors. He's performed in over 100 films and television shows, and he's also been a member of the
including his breakthrough roles in 93 as Luigi in Super Mario Brothers and Brian De Palma's Carlitos Way as Carlitos' nemesis, Benny Blanco from The Bronx. He also starred in Moulin Rouge! and he currently hosts the MSNBC travel show, Lake Wazamo Does America. John Lake Wazamo, welcome back to Fresh Air. Thank you, Tanya. What a pleasure to be here with you.
John, I absolutely loved Latin history for morons. And for those who don't know it, in 2018, you did this one-man show on Broadway where you essentially got on stage and traced 3,000 years of Latin history. And the idea was actually spawned from this discovery that your son was being bullied and
And it almost feels like you were working out this idea for what is now this new docuseries. Is that what was happening? How did you come to this idea for American Historia? Oh, Tanya, that's so true. I mean, the genesis was basically my son was in eighth grade and he was doing a history project and he was being bullied at the same time. And I wanted to help him with his project to be, you know, a good dad, get some brownie points for my wife. And...
I realized that there was no Latino contributions to the making of American history in his textbook. And so as super sleuth dad, I got all these books on Latin history on Amazon and went to all the sites. And it was I that was changed. My molecules, when I found all this information, incredible, countless information,
facts and data about our contributions to making of the U.S. and the world, I became a different person from being feeling small to feeling like a giant. Well, John, your entire career, as I said in the introduction, you've kind of been asserting your Latinowness. You've been the person who has been speaking about like this is who we are and these are our contributions.
For this documentary, though, you will choose three different time periods. And I'm really curious how you decided to choose them because, as I think I've heard you say, there is no Ken Burns doc or Discovery Channel show or even textbooks. I mean, you went to Amazon to find some of these books, but a lot of the history that is in this documentary, many of us have never heard before.
Tanya, you're so right. I mean, John Hopkins University and Unidos US did a study and found that 87% of Latino contributions to the making of the US are not in history textbooks. So that's what's in this show, that 87% that's missing. When I did the show, I wanted to be like Latino culture was on trial.
And I wanted to have evidence. I wanted to have facts. I wanted to have testimonies. I wanted to have quotes. I wanted to have evidence to support this because there's a lot of deniers and they're going to be deniers about our contribution. So I wanted to be fact check proof. And so I got these historians, these experts, these archaeologists to be on camera with me. I got all these allies involved.
from my 40 years in the business as allies to come and make these quotes come to life because there's not a lot of footage at the conquest. There's not a lot of footage of the 15 and 1600s. So I had to get quotes as many, and I pulled as many as I could. And I got Bryan Cranston and Liev Schreiber and Benjamin Brad and Ethan Hawke and Lawrence Fishburne and Rosario Dawson to make them come to life. Incredible allyship. And it warmed my heart.
I mean, the facts are astounding. Right. You're like a walking textbook now. And what I also feel from you is kind of this phenomenon that always happens is once you see it, you can't unsee it. True, true. Like you really sound like a man on a mission.
Yeah, I'm like the Rain Man of Latin data and facts. And I'm okay with that. I'm nerding out on you, I know, and on your public. But these facts, they change your chromosomes. They change your DNA. You're a young Latin man or young Latin woman in America, and you're growing up here, and there's nothing in literature that reflects you or history textbooks or math. And you feel very small.
And then when I start reading these facts about our contributions and our empires, that our empires were bigger than European empires, that they were more advanced than European empires, it blows your mind that the Aztecs had toilets with running water that they bathed three times a day, that the Incas had superior brain surgery equipment.
that the modern world hadn't achieved until after the Civil War. They had anesthesia that we gave the world. We had suspension bridges. We had... Incas had binary code back then before computers today. These are some of the findings you get and you're like, wait a minute, what? How is this kept from me? Why is this kept from me? And then you start to understand that he who writes the history textbooks controls society. Plato said...
He who tells the stories controls society, and it's been true, and it's intuitive truth as well. Can we do a little Latino History 101 as we continue to discuss this docuseries? Because for the people, I think it's important for us to note that
You share the distinction between Latino and Hispanic, especially as it pertains to how you approached this history in the docuseries. You do this at the top of every episode. Can you very quickly share that distinction? There's a huge distinction. And we Latinos are grappling with our identity, you know, on a daily basis and trying to do the best we can because we haven't done it.
as well as we should have, like including our Afro-Latinos and giving tribute to our indigenous Latino side, which is a huge part of our DNA. Hispanic means you speak Spanish. And for the most part, Hispanics are from Spain. But we are all Hispanics because we all speak Spanish. But Latino...
It means you're not from Spain. It means you're from Latin America. It means you were colonized. It means you're from the Caribbean, Mexico, Central America, and South America, and that includes Brazil and Haiti. We're all Latinos who experienced a lot of oppression, slavery, the stealing of our incredible wealth and land wealth and exploitation for 500 years. That's what Latino means to me.
And Latino is African, indigenous, and Spanish by blood. I'm a snap to that because that's exactly what I feel that Latino is. The majority of us are mestizo, indigenous, and Afro-Latino. We have a mixture of all that, and that's Latino.
There are white Latinos, but, you know, they're a very small percentage, but they do run things in Latin America. And that's where, you know, with the colorism happens and and racism in our own countries exists. You know, another topic that you take on in this doc is to chart how language, in particular Spanish, was weaponized. I mean, you actually go as far back as when the Europeans interacted with Native Americans who spoke their own language.
Over time, we saw this enter the school system where children were separated from their Spanish language. And Professor Valiz-Abenez talked about a memory growing up in the Southwest that was especially painful for him. I want to take a moment to listen to what he had to say. Let's listen. Yes. Segregation has many implications and many consequences.
consequences. In our particular case, Spanish language has been used as a racist trope. And for those of us who were in school, we were forbidden to speak Spanish. And for every word of Spanish that you spoke, we were hit with a bat that had been shaved with holes at the end.
So you went home and your mother might bathe you when you were five years old. She asked, well, you know, what are those marks on your rear end? And I told her, I said, I got spanked. Well, did you misbehave? I said, I don't know, but I didn't know why I was being spanked. What occurs is that the child then learns to associate pain with the language that the child is speaking. Now that language is internalized very early on.
The language that's spoken by a mother to her child when she's cooing her child, ay mijito lindo, o le está cantando en español, has a deep implication because you learn then that you've got to hate this language that your mother raised you upon.
That was Carlos Velez-Ibanez, professor of trans-border studies at Arizona State University, from the new documentary produced and hosted by my guest today, John Lake Guzamo. And John, he is touching on the mental health toll of being separated from your language. You're a Columbia-born and Queens-raised, and we're going to talk about that. But what was your relationship with the Spanish language growing up?
Well, what he said was so touching and so painful to reveal that I learned in this documentary series. And what he's talking about happened all over the Southwest and the West because, you know, it was all Mexico, Texas, Arizona. They have our names, you know, New Mexico, Arizona's dry land, Nevada's snowy land, California's beautiful temperate zone, you know.
Jim Crow laws were for Latinos as well. They called them Juan Crow laws. And you would see these signs that said, no Negroes, no dogs, and no Mexicans. We were at the bottom of the harbor. Underneath the dogs. Yes, underneath the dogs. Because we were the majority of the population all over the West and the Southwest. It had all just been Mexico, you know, from 1830s. It stopped being Mexico when we were invaded. Right.
So I had a different sort of understanding of Spanish because I didn't grow up in the Southwest. I grew up in the Northeast and in the East Coast.
And we Latinos are a little younger population here. And my parents immigrated here, so they had a huge pride of Spanish. They would force us to speak Spanish at home, you know. And I was very reluctant because all I saw on the media and in my classes was English. So I did not want to speak Spanish. And they would force me to speak Spanish. And now I regret being such an obstinate child because now I want to recoup my Spanish.
John, earlier this month at the 76 Primetime Emmy Awards, you spoke about the importance of representation in Hollywood. And you mentioned how you grew up seeing white actors playing characters of Latin descent and how when Latinos were in movies and shows, they were often playing a stereotype. I want us to listen to a little bit of it. Let's listen. I'm John Leguizamo and I'm one of Hollywood's DEI hires.
That's right, D-E-I. The D is for diligence. The E is for excellence. The I is for imagination. And everyone in this room tonight has dedicated their lives to diligence, excellence, and imagination. So we are all D-E-I hires. And man, what a beautiful and diverse room this is tonight. Because when I was growing up in Jackson Heights, Queens, a scorned little wannabe gangster. You're not from Queens, don't lie.
I didn't know that people like me could be actors. At 15, I didn't know the word representation. Actually, there were a lot of words I didn't know back then. But I saw a lot of brown face. I saw Marlon Brando play a Mexican in Viva Zapata, and Al Pacino play Cuban gangster Tony Montana, and Natalie Wood play a Puerto Rican beauty named Maria. Everybody played us, except us.
I didn't see a lot of people on TV who looked like me. Of course, there was always Ricky Ricardo. Lucy, you got a lot of explaining to do. And I know some of you remember the Looney Tunes cartoon mouse, Speedy Gonzales, the fastest mouse in all of Mexico. And his lethargic, useless sidekick, Slowpoke Rodriguez. Sorry, Señor Pussycat, I can't play with you no more. It's time for my siesta.
And that's how we saw ourselves, because that's all we saw of ourselves. That was my guest, John Leguizamo, at this year's Primetime Emmy Awards, talking about representation in Hollywood. John, what was the reception to that speech? Wow, it was electric and seismic. I was a little nervous, you know, because I was saying a lot of edgy things. And luckily, the Emmy Committee said,
uh relented and allowed me because chris abrego the new uh chairman of of the emmys is latino and he fought for me to be able to show them what you were going to say before you said it yes i had to and had to be approved and had to be a lot of conversations because they wanted to keep it light they didn't want people to feel bad uh so i made it as funny and light as possible but i still got my points across which was powerful and i saw you know
People in the audience, you know, nodding, hooting, hollering, snapping back. And I was like, oh, my God, I got him. And it was quiet sometimes. You could hear a pin drop and then the laughter. And it was wild. It was such a beautiful experience. You know, there are so many movies that we grew up with that...
They're just iconic. You know, thinking about when I was a kid, like Scarface, all of the guys I grew up with loved that. It was playing all the time. And I wonder, like, what is your relationship with some of those movies today that really did like sit in those stereotypes? You know, Mexican bandits and Westerns or the West Side Story that cast all white actors to play Puerto Ricans and Scarface. Yeah.
Yeah, you know, at the time I was like, you know, I was I didn't feel, you know, they made me feel like I didn't deserve to be the leads in our own stories. I was felt I was made to feel that now that I'm a grown man. It's not OK. I'm enraged by it. You took an opportunity of a Latin person. Yeah.
Antonio Banderas playing Latinos, he's not Latino. He's a white European colonizer. It's not his fault. I'm not saying that. Because we don't have Latino executives who say, look, you're not Latino. Why are you taking Latino roles? Pacino, you're a white Italian. Why are you playing a Puerto Rican in Carlitos Wayne, playing a Cuban in Scarface?
Those should be Latino roles and it should be Latinos playing them. And I'm going to say something controversial. This Menendez story being done right now. On Netflix. There's only one real Latino. There's only one real Latino in that cast. It's a Latino story, a horrible Latino story, but there's plenty of Latino actors to play the dad. I love Javier Bardem. I think he's an incredible actor, but he's not Latino. He's a white Spaniard. Mm-hmm.
And a little bit of brownface going on. And that's not cool. I'm going to do like Kendrick Lamar going after Drake. I'm sorry, but those roles should be to David Zayas, Benjamin Bratt. There's tons of Latino actors and talent out there. Put Latinos in Latino roles.
Let's not do a disservice. I see so much Latin talent being laid to waste. Dreams allowed to desiccate. Use our Latin talent. John Leguizamo, it was such a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much for taking the time. Oh, Tanya, it was a blast. John Leguizamo's new PBS series is called Voces, American Historia, the Untold History of Latinos. ♪
Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley. This message comes from NPR sponsor Merrill. Whatever your financial goals are, you want a straightforward path there. But the real world doesn't usually work that way. Merrill understands that.
That's why, with a dedicated Merrill advisor, you get a personalized plan and a clear path forward. Go to ml.com slash bullish to learn more. Merrill, a Bank of America company. What would you like the power to do? Investing involves risk. Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner & Smith Incorporated, registered broker-dealer, registered investment advisor, member SIPC.
This message comes from NPR sponsor CarMax. Searching for your next car? Don't settle, thrive. At CarMax, it's easy to shop online or in person. With upfront pricing and tools designed to help, finding a car you love has never been easier. Plus, you can sell or trade in your current vehicle with an online offer in minutes, no strings attached. Start shopping now to find a car you'll love at CarMax.com. CarMax, the way it should be.
This message comes from NPR sponsor, Capella University. Capella's programs teach skills relevant to your career, so you can apply what you learn right away. See how Capella can make a difference in your life at capella.edu.
