Best Of: 'Joker' Director Todd Phillips / Actor Uzo Aduba
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From WHYY in Philadelphia, I'm Tanya Mosley with Fresh Air Weekend. Today we hear from Todd Phillips, the director and co-writer of the new musical sequel to Joker. He shares what it was like to direct Joaquin Phoenix and Lady Gaga in a singing, dancing, very dark adaptation of the DC character. We'll also get a sneak listen to some of the songs sung by Phoenix and Gaga that aren't out yet.

and actress Uzo Aduba, best known for her role as Crazy Eyes on Orange is the New Black and HBO's In Treatment. She's written a new memoir that pays homage to her mother, a Nigerian immigrant who raised she and her siblings in an almost all-white Massachusetts suburb. Also, David Bianculli will review the new Disney Plus Marvel series Agatha All Along, a spinoff to the series WandaVision. That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend.

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A new sequel to the film Joker opens next month, starring Joaquin Phoenix as the Joker and Lady Gaga as Lee Quinzel.

This film is a dark and unusual musical. The soundtrack hasn't been released yet, but we'll hear some of the songs a little later. My guest Todd Phillips directed and co-wrote both Joker films. Joker is an arch-villain of the Batman stories, and Lee Quinzel is a version of Harley Quinn, the Joker's partner in crime before going her own way. Phillips describes the films as an origin story, but not the origin story.

Both films are connected to the DC Comics universe, but they're more like arthouse films than superhero films. In Philip's first Joker film, Phoenix plays Arthur Fleck, a troubled man with a history of mental health problems. His dream is to become a stand-up comic. His actual job is dressing as a clown for an agency that rents out clowns for parties and occasions.

One day on the way home from work, still wearing his clown makeup, he's attacked on the subway by three young men. He shoots and kills them. Crime has gotten so bad in Gotham City, where the film is set, that he becomes a folk hero. His dream comes true when he's invited to be a guest on his favorite late night show, hosted by Murray Franklin, played by Robert De Niro. But Arthur realizes Murray has been mocking him, so he shoots and kills Murray live on TV. In the

In the new sequel, Joker for Lee Adu, Arthur has spent the past two years in the criminally insane wing of a psychiatric institution where he's awaiting trial for his murders. At a music therapy class, he meets Lee, who is a fan of Arthur's alter ego, the Joker. Here's Lady Gaga as Lee. When I first saw Joker, when I saw you and Murray Franklin, the whole time I was watching, I kept thinking, I hope this guy...

blows his brains out. And then you did. And for once in my life, I didn't feel so alone anymore. Forget your troubles, come on, get happy. Better chase all your cares away. Sing hallelujah, come on. Ready for the judgment day.

The French expression folie a deux means a shared folly or shared delusion. And these two characters share the delusion of Arthur as Joker and the perspective that goes along with that. The film touches on issues relating to mental health disorders, treatment of the criminally insane, and how the media can turn killers into celebrities. While Arthur is in prison, his story is told in a popular TV documentary.

My guest Todd Phillips also directed the Hangover films Road Trip and Old School. Joker received Oscar nominations for Best Picture and Best Director, while Keen Phoenix won for Best Actor. The film grossed about a billion dollars at the box office.

Todd Phillips, welcome back to Fresh Air. We spoke when Joker was released, and I enjoyed the film and our conversation, and I really like this film as well very much, so it's a pleasure to have you back. Well, thank you for having me back. So this new sequel to Joker is a musical, and I think it's really effective as a musical. And it's not the kind of musical where people just kind of break into song. It's the fantasies, what's going on in their minds.

Because we often kind of live in songs. We all have our favorite songs that we sing in our mind and imagine ourselves in that world. And that's what the music is in this. It's like an inner monologue, but in song and dance. What was your original conception of how the music was going to fit into this? Well, it started a long time ago. It really started in our meetings on the first film, our meetings, meaning me and Joaquin's.

And when we would just sort of talk about Arthur and I always kind of explained that Arthur had music inside of him. And I really think that affected Joaquin and affected his performance. Clearly, when you look at the first film and if people remember when he was dancing in the bathroom or dancing on the stairs, that's all Joaquin basically moving to music in his head, in Arthur's head, of course.

So we had this, even though Arthur was left footed and out of step with the world, we always found that there was a romance in him again, a music inside him. So we just kind of use that as a leaping off point from here and said, what if we take that one step further? And what if when he meets somebody that he believes loves him, that he believes sees him? Well, what does it look like when that music comes out of him?

So I want to play a song from the film, and this is the song associated with Stevie Wonder for once in my life. And Arthur is singing it, Joaquin Phoenix, and he's, you know, he's fallen in love with Lee, the Harley Quinn character. But he's also just found out that he's mentally fit to stand trial for the murders, and he's facing the possibility of a death sentence.

And this should be a pretty, you know, for once in my life, I found someone who needs me. It's an upbeat song. But in this version, there's these like dark chords that keep swelling underneath him as the song goes on. Do you want to just talk about your conception of this before we hear it? Well, yeah, you mentioned Stevie Wonder, but we closely associate this song as a Frank Sinatra song. The Frank Sinatra version, when we were writing it, was really kind of the first thing we came upon that was very,

For me, it's just such a beautiful and big and bold rendition. The magic with Joaquin is if so, if you were to YouTube, you know, Frank Sinatra singing this. And obviously, Joaquin is never going to sing like Frank Sinatra. But the magic to Joaquin and why he's so brilliant is he brings so much emotion to it and love.

It's hard to believe that when you hear Frank Sinatra sing it, that for once in my life he found someone who needs him. It's hard to believe that that's really the first time in Frank Sinatra's life he found somebody. It is so true. But with Joaquin, you just believe it, as Arthur, I should say. When Arthur sings it, you believe that he has finally found someone who needs him, and that has never happened to him before. So the point being, while Joaquin will never be Frank Sinatra, nobody would be,

And what about those chords behind him? So that's, you know, us basically rearranging the music, you know, and we do that with, of course, Hilder, who was our composer on the first film, actually won an Oscar on the first film.

She's brilliant. And so we'll do like a standard arrangement. And then I always kind of coined this term. Okay, now let's hilderize this and add some of the music again that Arthur would be hearing in his head to this version of the song. And it kind of becomes its own thing. Yeah, very dissonant. Okay, so here's For Once in My Life, sung by Joaquin Phoenix. Let's go, boys. It's showtime. Wakey, wakey.

Hey, come on. For once in my life, I have someone who needs me. Someone I've needed so long. For once, unafraid, I can go where life leads me. Somehow, I know I'll be strong. For once, I can touch what my heart used to dream of.

♪ Long before I knew ♪ ♪ Someone warm like you ♪ ♪ Make my dreams come true ♪ ♪ For once in my life I won't let sorrow hurt me ♪ ♪ Not like it's hurt me before ♪ ♪ For once I have someone I know ♪ ♪ Who'll desert me ♪ ♪ And I'm not alone anymore ♪

For once I can say this is mine, you can't take it long. As I know love, I can make it my life. I've got someone who needs me. You know, I love how just as it really starts to like swing and get more upbeat, then the clouds come in. Yes, he's right. You feel the emotions swirling in Arthur. And I think, you know, we tried to do that with the arrangement as well.

We're listening to Terry's interview with Todd Phillips. He directed and co-wrote the film Joker and its new sequel, Joker, Follet et Dieu. We'll hear more of their conversation after a break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.

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This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Todd Phillips. He directed and co-wrote the film Joker and its new sequel, Joker, Follet et Dieu. You've said that you wanted with Joker and with this film, you know, you wanted to make a gritty movie, something that Scorsese might have made like Taxi Driver and King of Comedy.

Both of which you paid tribute to in the first Joker film, but you realized the way to get it funded was to make it seem like part of a superhero universe. Had you been an avid reader of Batman comics or viewer of the movies or involved with any of the versions of, you know, Marvel or DC or, you know, any kind of superhero universe?

Yeah, no, I never really said that in that way, by the way. What I always said is something I had always done before the first Joker was I made movies about groups of people, in fact, mostly groups of men. Right. And I and what I really wanted to do was do a deep dive into a single person character study. But it did feel to me at that time in 2017, 18, 17.

That's a tough movie to get made in the studio system at that time. So in some ways it felt like, well, if you couch it, it's one of these kind of superhero films, it might be easier to get it made. And that's really what the germ of the idea for Joker started as. But...

Believe it or not, as a young person, I did read comics. Mine was Daredevil, and I read anything Frank Miller did basically back then, which was he did a run of Daredevil comics, he did a run, of course, of The Dark Knight. And as far as the movies go, like anybody else, and certainly like every filmmaker, I try to see everything. From Tim Burton's versions through Joel Schumacher and, of course, what Chris Nolan did. Now I'm just talking about the Batman world. You know, that stuff...

Absolutely affected me. And, you know, I was in awe of what Chris Nolan was doing, of course. So all that stuff played into the movie as much as the, you know, inspirations for the films of the 70s that inspired, you know, the first film.

When you were reading Batman comics or watching Batman movies, did the characters strike you as mentally ill? Like, you know, Joker and Harley Quinn? Well, certainly in Nolan's version and what him and Heath Ledger did, yeah. I would believe they probably spoke. I never spoke to Chris about it. I would believe that it was informed a little bit by mental illness under that version of Joker. Yeah.

Um, that definitely resonated, you know, with me. So another question about working with Joaquin Phoenix, and I'm not sure you'll want to answer this cause I'm sure you want, you feel very protective of him. Um, as I imagine you would with all your actors, but he's somebody who appears to be very eccentric and, uh, perhaps moody. And that's the kind of thing that can make it difficult for a director. Um,

So could you tell us a little bit more about what it's like to work with him and to be a partner with him and trying to, for instance, rethink scenes or, you know, create a character? Yeah, I mean, what you're saying is sort of, I guess, a reputation that Joaquin may have. But all I can speak to honest to God is my experience with Joaquin, which is none of that.

What I get is this very playful, very curious, and very brave actor who just wants to try stuff and wants to try 11 versions of walking through a door. And to me, it's literally music to my ears. Like we could do this all day because it's all an attempt to find the emotional truth to a scene, which is really all your job is as a director, right? So, um,

Again, my experience with him is just not that. Since the character Lee Quinzel develops a persona just like Arthur does in his persona as Joker, her persona as Harley Quinn, it's a really interesting choice to cast Lady Gaga because Lady Gaga is a persona. So she knows what a persona is like. Yeah, that's an interesting point. Yeah.

You know, for us it was obvious because as we were kind of dancing around this idea of making a musical, making this sequel into a musical, I really wanted to find an actor that brought music with them. So it wasn't as much of a leap for people to look at it and go, what the hell? No, it's still a leap. It's still like we're asking a lot of the audience to understand what this is and where we're coming from. But I did think...

Stephanie, Lady Gaga, does some of that heavy lifting for us in that she brings music with her. So you keep saying Stephanie, Lady Gaga, acknowledging that Lady Gaga is a persona. Is Stephanie very different than Lady Gaga? No, I mean, I say it because that's what I call her, like personally, but then I realize in life most people use that term. So I just, it was like a habit.

But I would say, yeah, I mean, certainly Lady Gaga is a character that Stephanie created and embodies. I don't want to speak for her, so she probably has her own theories on it. And we never really spoke too deeply on it. But I mean, I think a lot of times, you know, there's Eminem and there's Slim Shady and he creates these. And then there's Marshall Mathers. He actually has a few. But yeah, I think that happens a lot in entertainment with singers in particular, right?

What I was amazed at with, I'm going to call her Gaga now. What I was amazed at with Gaga most was this idea of could she be vulnerable? Could she really, obviously she could sing. Obviously she brought music with her and all that stuff. And I've seen her be great in movies. And, you know, I was one of the producers on A Star is Born. So I knew her a little bit. I knew what she was capable of as an actor, obviously.

But the big question was, can she be vulnerable in the way that Lee has to be vulnerable in this film? And, you know, she just brought that instantly. So I want to play another song. And this is a song that Lady Gaga sings. And it's close to you, the Burt Bacharach, Hal David song, which was popularized by the Carpenters. But the way it's sung in this, it has a kind of...

sinister edge to it or a very troubled edge to it. And I'd like to know what the original version, you know, what the hit version, the Carpenter's version song meant to you and why you wanted to include it in the movie as a song sung by Lee. Well, it's a funny thing, this song, because actually in the script we had originally had her singing Bewitched back to him.

Arthur does an amazing version of Bewitched on a televised interview that he's doing for a kind of Geraldo Rivera-like TV personality. And he ends up singing Bewitched about her and to her. And her response in that scene was going to be singing Bewitched back. But then we realized, oh, why would we do that? And Stephanie and I, Stephanie's Lady Gaga and I, talked about other things to sing. And I had brought this song up to her because it was a song that...

that I always remember being played for me in my house, not for me, but my mother playing.

And a lot of the music in the movie, the Arthur music, let's call it, is based on these standards that I always thought, oh, Arthur's mom was probably playing around the house and he would always hear these songs. And now it's kind of they're coming out of him. And in some ways that was similar with this, but I was thinking about my own experiences with this song and this idea of exactly what you said. There's two ways to listen to this song, right?

You could listen to Karen and Richard Carpenter and it becomes this really beautiful thing. Or you could listen to Lady Gaga singing this to Arthur in a visitation booth at Arkham Asylum and think it sounds almost like, I don't want to say stalker, but a girl that you just, you might want to, there might be a red flag that she's singing this to him. Yeah, right. Right. Okay. So let's hear it. So this is Lady Gaga. And you'll burn.

Suddenly, every time you are near, just like me, they long to be close to you. I do stars fall from the sky every time you walk by, just like me, they long to be close to you.

On the day that you were born, the angels got together and decided to make a dream come true. So they sprinkled moon dust in your hair, a golden starlight in your eyes of blue. That is why all the girls in town follow you around.

That was Lady Gaga from the soundtrack of the new film Joker Fully Adieu. And my guest is Todd Phillips, who co-wrote and directed the film.

So I'm assuming that the arrangement behind Lady Gaga was by Hildur Gunnardotter. It's a really difficult name to pronounce. Yeah, you say it. And I probably just said it wrong. That's why before I was like, I just said Hildur. I always mess it up. She's great. She wrote the music for both films and I imagine arranged...

She did. Gaga, of course, on this movie had a lot to say and do with the musical arrangements as well. Well, because, you know, there's score and then there's song. So if Gaga is going to sing on a song, this is a perfect example close to you. It's very much dictated by Gaga's original arrangement, meaning what she wants to do with the song. And then we kind of hilderize it, certain ones, if we if we want to or not.

um this was a really interesting approach because often in musicals you know the actors want to sing live on set and they do sing live on set but they're usually singing to uh

background track of you know of the music um but because Joaquin wants it to feel really alive and of the moment he didn't really necessarily want to decide what that arrangement would be so we actually had a pianist live on stage in like a soundproof little booth and

so the actors were able to lead the music, not the arrangement, if that makes sense. And maybe this is a little too inside baseball. So Gaga's pianist is in her ear, but he's following her melodies and her lead, if that makes sense, which really I don't know who's ever done that before. It was difficult because then we would backwards engineer the arrangement later in editing and put the music to it.

Todd Phillips, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for coming back to the show. Wow, Terry, thank you for having me, and it was wonderful talking to you. Todd Phillips directed and co-wrote Joker and the new sequel. The film hits theaters on October 4th, as well as the soundtrack.

In 2021, Disney Plus presented a new limited series, WandaVision, which took two minor characters from the Marvel Comics universe and gave them their own show, filtering a story of grief and witchcraft through the echoes of classic TV sitcoms. Three years later, Jack Schafer, the creator of WandaVision, has concocted a spinoff of that series, which just launched on Disney Plus. It

It's called Agatha All Along, and our TV critic, David Bianculli, calls it just as creative and magical as its predecessor. Here's his review. Just when I feel like I've reached the burnout phase when it comes to comic book dramas, along comes something that pulls me back in. HBO's The Penguin, the best treatment of a DC Comics character in years, just did that. And now, along comes Agatha All Along.

Agatha All Along is a spin-off from WandaVision, centered on the unexpected villain of that earlier series. Most of the characters in WandaVision were under a magic spell, trapped in an isolated simulation of perennially happy suburban TV sitcoms of various decades. One of the residents who seemed to be under the spell was Agnes, the nosy neighbor, played by Katherine Hahn.

But in a surprise reveal near the end of the series, it turned out that Agnes was a witch named Agatha Harkness, who actually was the very aware villain hiding in plain sight in the supernaturally altered town of Westview. This plot twist was revealed in the next-to-last episode by temporarily turning WandaVision into a different pretend TV show, complete with its own TV theme song.

The music and lyrics, which won an Emmy that year, were by Broadway musical veterans Kristen Anderson Lopez and Robert Lopez. And their song not only detailed the plot twist, it provided the inspiration and even the title for the new Agatha All Along series. It's been Agatha all along. Pulling every evil string. It's been Agatha all along.

WandaVision ended with Agatha imprisoned by a memory-wiping magic spell, sentenced to living in Westview thinking she really was a town resident named Agnes. Jack Schaefer, creator of WandaVision and its spinoff, starts Agatha All Along with Agatha, now Agnes, stuck in another TV-inspired alternate reality.

Except this time, instead of family sitcoms, the vibe comes from crime dramas. Specifically, Mare of Easttown. The show within a show we start watching, a gloomy detective series, is called Agnes of Westview. And early on, while working on a murder case, Agnes is visited by an FBI agent, played by Aubrey Plaza, who seems to know a lot more than just about the case at hand. Sure. Let's talk about the case.

What are your theories? How'd she end up in the ravine? No drag marks, thinking the perp carried her. Uh, seems logical, but, um, you don't really believe that because... Oops. No tracks for the perp. Not a leaf disturbed before forensics showed up. It's almost like she just magically appeared. Let's stick to reality here, yeah? Sure. If there's one thing we can agree on, it's that these cases are always about the place.

The specific small town, the history of it, the people in it, the secrets buried beneath it. That's where the answers lie. Well, who better to solve the mystery than one of Westview's very own? You've lived here your whole life. Isn't that true, Agnes? Thanks to a young suspect identified only as the teen, Agnes soon gets her memory back and her identity as Agatha, but not her powers.

To regain them, she has to assemble a witch's coven and lead them on a journey down a magical, threatening witch's road. It's very Wizard of Oz, intentionally so. And Agatha even meets up with her eventual traveling companions one at a time, like Dorothy did. Agatha and the teen, who sticks along for the ride, visit a psychic played by Patti LuPone, who impresses Agatha with her very accurate reading of her.

Afterward, Agatha confronts the psychic and tries to recruit her. You showed some real skill out there. I didn't read your fortune. I read your reputation. Oh. Witches like you are the reason people think we poison apples and steal children and eat babies. Babies are delicious. Oh. How old are you? 410, 415. How dare you? Oh, I apologize. You don't look a day under 450. Years old?

You get, what, maybe two suckers a day in here, and 20 bucks later you're sitting on a bed that's also your wall. Don't you miss the glory days? Other recruits include former Saturday Night Live player Sasheer Zameda, who's really good here. So is Aubrey Plaza, and Patti LuPone, and the rest of the cast, especially Katherine Hahn.

Each task the coven must complete on the witch's road presents new dangers and challenges, but also magical new settings and costumes. That calls back to the audaciously inspired different eras framework of WandaVision. And so does the incantation chanted to summon up the entrance to the magical road. Once again, the Lopezes provide the music and lyrics. But this time, with Catherine Han and Patti LuPone leading the chanting, it's indeed Spellbind.

Seekest thou the road to all that's foul and fair? Gather, sisters, fire, water, earth, and air. Darkest hour, wake thy power, earthly and divine. Burn and brew with coven true, and glory shall be thine.

Disney Plus provided only the first four episodes for preview, so I don't know how Agatha all along ends. But I adore the way it starts. David Bianculli is professor of television studies at Rowan University. Coming up, we'll hear from actor Uzo Aduba, best known for her role as Crazy Eyes on Orange is the New Black and HBO's In Treatment. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.

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This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley, and my guest today is award-winning actress Uzo Aduba. When she won her first Emmy in 2014 for her breakout role as Suzanne Crazy Eyes worn in the Netflix series Orange is the New Black, seated next to her at the awards ceremony in a regal blue Nigerian headdress and gown was her mother, Nonyem, whom Aduba tearfully thanked for immigrating to the U.S. to make a better life for her family.

Well, in a new memoir, Aduba makes clear that to know her, you must first know and understand her mother, who died in 2020 from pancreatic cancer. Aduba's memoir takes us through her parents' journey in the 60s after the Nigerian Civil War, settling in and raising Aduba and her siblings in the predominantly white suburb of Medfield, Massachusetts.

Intertwined with her mother's story is Aduba's journey, how she discovered acting, and the pursuit of her dreams in New York City before landing her breakout role in Orange is the New Black, for which she won two Emmy Awards. Aduba is known for her ability to embody her characters. She also won a third Emmy for her performance as Shirley Chisholm in the FX series Mrs. America, and she currently stars in the coming-of-age film as Clarice in The Supremes at Earl's All-You-Can-Eat.

Her new memoir is titled The Road is Good, How a Mother's Strength Became a Daughter's Purpose. And Uzo Aduba, welcome to Fresh Air. Thank you so much for having me, Tanya. I would love to start our discussion in grounding it in this book. Can I have you read the first page of your memoir? As I write this, my mother is dying. For years, this is how I imagined I'd begin my book.

That is how much the stories of our lives intertwine. Ours was the longest relationship of my life. When I first received the news, there was, at the core of my being, a resistance. Up until that moment, I hadn't realized that I'd thought my mother would never die. I hadn't known that she was my belief system, that I'd thought my mother was a god, even if it was a little g. You see, my mother could do anything, lift anything, move mountains.

Only a few inches above five feet, she was tall to me. She had that much fire in her. My boldness is bolstered by her sincere belief that I can accomplish anything. I began work on this book before my mother's cancer diagnosis and continued while my siblings and I cared for her, while I prepared to say goodbye. When I say that my mother taught me so much, even in dying, I don't mean what she taught me in those final days and weeks.

I mean the dignity with which she sat for the 495 days after her cancer diagnosis. She was then who she'd always been. Loving, faithful, funny. How could I lose her when I still had so much to learn? And each time I set out to write my own story, the only place I thought I could begin was the end. Uzo, thank you so much for reading that. And my condolences on the death of your mother. Thank you.

This book is a beautiful tribute to your mother. And one of the things I thought about when reading it was there's this element of individualism in American culture where we don't really lead with our parents' story when we're telling our story. We're kind of told to – it's almost a footnote. You ask, oh, okay, where are you from, like the fourth, fifth, sixth question. Yeah.

This is really saying, like, when we ask, who are you, Uzo? You are saying, I am my mother's daughter. Yes. What about your relationship with your mother made it clear to you right from the start when you thought, okay, I'm going to write a memoir, even before she got sick, that you would write one that included her story? Yeah, I think I knew that I was going to include her story because so many of the tenants by which I live and...

The motivators that display themselves in me come directly from her. My self-talk, the way that I motivate myself into pursuing this business, going to audition after audition, the way I prepare for it is built out of language that my mother had given me and my siblings since we were children. It's her saying constantly to us, I've never heard of nothing before.

Coming from hard work. That's what she would say. All the time. I've never heard of nothing coming from hard work. And when we were kids...

You know, you hear and you're like, ah, yeah, okay, she keeps saying that. But then you grow up and you start to see life and you realize, number one, she's living that. You see her through her own conduct, working hard, and breeding results. Whether that's keeping a roof over the head of five kids and bellies full. Whether that's having moved to this country and achieving not one but two master's.

whether that is showing up and shuttling us to whichever activity that we needed to be at and then coming home after a long day's work and cooking and getting everything ready to check homework. She worked hard. And I know that's how I talk to myself. I say that expression even still. She poured so heavily into my cup. My cup is ultimately filled with her.

You grew up in Medfield, Massachusetts. It's about like almost 20 miles from Boston, right? Yeah. How did your parents end up there? My dad got a job in Massachusetts and they were in Boston. And then when they realized they were going to be settling in Massachusetts, you know, more permanently, there were two things that they were looking for. Number one, they wanted a quiet community.

My family immigrated from Nigeria. They didn't grow up in the city. They grew up in the village. And that's a quiet community, small, small town. And they wanted to continue that tradition. Second, you know, my parents have a humble background and couldn't afford, you know, sending kids to a bunch of private schools. And the schools were good there in Medfield. And the schools were great. Excellent. Excellent.

The social aspects and makeups of the community were not things that they were as aware of. Meaning that you all would be one of the only black families in your community. Correct. And only African family on top of that as well. The name of your book is The Road is Good, which is the meaning of your name. Can you say your whole name? Because Uzo is an abbreviation. Correct. My first name is Uzamaka.

which means the road is good. And it has a bit more depth and color to it. It really means the journey was worth it. It means that all of it,

was worth it. So if you came to come to my house to visit and we were meant to meet at three o'clock, but and then you step outside and it's torrential rain and then you realize the tire's flat. So you got to wait for that. And there's traffic and then you run out of gas because of the traffic. And then, oh, my goodness, it's 430 and the rain's still coming. And then suddenly, as you turn on to my street, the sun comes out, all the water magically dries up.

I open the door and you're here at 445 and I say, And how was the trip? How was the journey? You'd say, It was hard, but it's worth it because I'm here now with you. Like it was, the journey was worth it. The journey was worth it. When did you start shortening your name? When I was a kid.

Uza is a common nickname for Uzamaca. So close friends or family say Uz. And if I hear someone calling me Uzamaca fully, even my parents, I know I'm in trouble. Did you ever want to change it? Oh, my gosh. Yeah. When I was very, very tiny, I had a teacher who...

Who told me that my name was too hard to say. And this was already after kids who would be like, Uzi, like the gun, you know, like, oh, what kind of name is that? That's such a weird name. And I was always already after, you know, I was the second name.

roll call in my school. And after Dan Abramson, Dan Abramson was first. You still remember. You know his name, right? Dan Abramson, then it was Amakadwa, came second. And I had a teacher who, by the way, did not have the easiest name to say, just incidentally. And

She said she couldn't say it, that it was so hard, such a hard name. Uzomaka, Azumaka, I can't figure it out. And I wanted to just, I think at that time feeling my onlyness, wanted to fit in, you know, and I asked my mom if she could help.

Start calling me Zoe. Zoe was the name. Where did you get that name from? Zoe. That sounds kind of like. Okay. So it was kind of close to your name. Yes. Zoe instead of Woozo. I was like, that sounds easier. And I think even the teacher said, can I call you Zoe? I was like, this is maybe this is a good name. Maybe that's where I borrowed it from. But I was like, Zoe sounds close to that. And she just thought it was the most.

ridiculous thing. She'd already, by the way, I'm number three of five kids. My older sister had tried to try this game once. Her name is Onyi. She tried to get everybody to call her Tony. And my mother wasn't having it. And she was ready, you know, as the third born. She said, and that was it.

If you're just joining us, my guest is award-winning actor Uzo Aduba. Uzo Aduba is a two-time Emmy award-winning actor for her role as Suzanne Crazy Eyes worn in the Netflix series Orange is the New Black. She also won a third Emmy for portraying Shirley Chisholm in the series Mrs. America.

Shirley Chisholm was the first black woman to run for president in a presidential primary. Uzo, when you were growing up, your mother actually referred to Shirley Chisholm as my fighting Shirley Chisholm. Yes. What did you understand her to mean back then when she would say that? Oh, she would say she meant that she was spunky. Yeah. You know, she had spunk.

You know, we were talking about it. I have a recording of her. She said she was because she was spunky. You have a recording? Oh, yeah. What was it? Was it like a family video? No, an audio recording as we were putting this book together and we were talking. She's like, because she's spunky, you know, and she was talking about, you know, her famous quote, you know, if they don't make a seat at the table, then bring a folding chair. Yeah, my mom...

And she'd always do these, you know, like she's in a boxing ring, punches, you know, when she would talk about my fighting Shelley Chisholm, just like this. Yeah.

Yeah. She loved her. I think she loved – my mom loved groundbreakers. She loved people who weren't afraid and I think that's actually exactly what she said about her. She was not afraid. She loved those groundbreakers, those people who were –

willing to go a step further, step outside the bounds and conditions that were told to them they should live by. She absolutely loved her. And so when I told her I got that job, whoa, she was so excited. Did you tell her you were almost thinking about not taking it because of her illness? Yes. And she understood that.

But was so excited that I had taken it. And she would look forward to when I would come home because we were shooting in Toronto. And when I would come back to be with her for treatment.

I was going up and down during that time. She loved hearing about the day's work on set. Oh, you know, we're doing this scene today with Gloria Steinem. You know, she loved hearing about all those parts. Oh, we're going to do the convention, you know, scene. And so, unfortunately –

And my producers on that project were able to get us, once it was complete, an early cut of it. So she got to see it. She got to see it. And she loved it. She absolutely loved it. Absolutely loved it. It was her favorite thing that I did. It's her favorite. Yeah. I want to play a clip from it. You won your third Emmy, as I mentioned. And the scene I'm about to play...

You are delivering, you as Chisholm, are delivering a campaign speech at the 1972 Democratic Convention in Miami. Let's listen. They say Shirley Chisholm tells it like it is. So I'm going to tell it like it really is. There are women within range of my voice right now that support McGovern.

And there are women that support Humphrey and Wallace, and this is your right. But if you're talking about women becoming a political force to be reckoned with, you have to decide whether or not you're going to go with the candidate who cares about women's rights and will go with you all the way down the line.

Or whether you'll support one of the other candidates, because it has been the traditional thing to do. In this country, everybody is supposed to be able to run for president, but that has never really been true. Somebody had to do it first. So I did it. I did it because I was the only one who had the audacity to shake this system.

That was my guest, Uzo Aduba, portraying Shirley Chisholm in the Hulu series, Mrs. America. And Uzo, you really embody Chisholm's look. You had the curly wig, you had the colorful clothes, but you decided not to do her lisp. Yes, that was important to me. My dialect coach, Kate, and I, we had a conversation about it and we were

really thoughtful about how we wanted to approach her from a language perspective, a dialect perspective. We knew that there's probably an overwhelming portion of viewers who may not be familiar with Shirley Chisholm. That's true. Yeah. That unfortunately, history had not at that point given her, and from a pop culture perspective, her flowers, her dew.

And so the craft of acting is story first, right? We want to make sure that the story is translated and communicated well. And so for that reason, what she was talking about was so much more important than to us, to me, than landing the affect she had on her speech, her slisp.

That wasn't the thing that we were trying to communicate and get across. What we wanted to communicate and get across through this performance was how powerful and strong she is, how determined she was to fight for the good of the whole. And we wanted her fearlessness to be clear. Yeah, you thought the list might be a distraction. It was going to be a distraction because people...

are already trying to synthesize so much information about her with such a short window of time. They don't have the years to get to know her and then tune their ear to her list. We wanted to make sure who she is. Uzo Aduba, thank you so much for allowing us to know your mother through your book and also to know you. This has been such a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much for having me.

Uzo Aduba's new memoir is The Road is Good, How a Mother's Strength Became a Daughter's Purpose.

Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Joel Wolfram, Monique Nazareth, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper and Sabrina Siewert.

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