A Yo-Yo Ma Thanksgiving
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Hi, it's Terry Gross. Before we start our show, I want to take a minute to remind you that it's Almost Giving Tuesday, which is so named because it's become a day of expressing gratitude by giving money or any kind of help to an individual or group or organization that matters to you.

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Thank you, and thanks to everyone who's already supporting us. And now, on with the show. This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. I hope you're enjoying your Thanksgiving. For the holiday, we're going to feature one of our favorite interviews of the year with Yo-Yo Ma. He brought his cello, which he played for us. He's the most famous contemporary cellist and perhaps the most revered in the U.S.,

His best-known recordings are of the Bach solo cello suites, which he's recorded three times in 1983, 1997, and 2018. He's performed with orchestras around the world, but lots of people who pay no attention to classical music know Yo-Yo Ma because he's performed in so many different contexts. He's played American folk and bluegrass music, and he's played music from around the world with the Silk Road Ensemble, which he founded.

He's appeared on Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood, Sesame Street, and The Simpsons. On the first anniversary of 9-11, at the ceremony held at Ground Zero, he performed one of the Bach cello suites. Earlier this year, in April, he played at the memorial for the seven aid workers from World Central Kitchen who were killed in an Israeli airstrike while they were feeding people trapped in Gaza.

Yo-Yo Ma started playing cello at age four, and by the time he was seven, he performed at an event attended by President Kennedy and former President Dwight Eisenhower, where he was introduced by Leonard Bernstein. In 2011, he received the Presidential Medal of Freedom from Obama. That's one of the many honors he's received, including 19 Grammys.

He has a new album with pianist Catherine Stott, who he's performed with for over 40 years. She's about to retire. Their new album, Merci, is their final album together. I spoke with Yo-Yo Ma last May at an event held at WHYY where Fresh Air is produced, where he received WHYY's annual Lifelong Learning Award. Thank you.

The only honor greater than having Yo-Yo Ma here tonight is having Yo-Yo Ma with his cello here tonight. So I'm absolutely thrilled about this. So I want you to introduce your cello to us because it's from the 1700s. This cello is older than the United States of America.

Well, Terry, the first thing I want to tell you is that the cello's name is Petunia. It has a name? Yeah. And the reason it's named Petunia is because I was playing in Salt Lake City in Utah probably about 25 years ago, and a high school student whose name I still remember as Brittany asked me, does your cello have a name? Yeah.

I said, no, but I'll play you a piece of music, and if you can think of a name, maybe I'll keep it. And so I played a piece of music. She said, Petunia. I said, that's it. And the name has stuck. One of the things you're famous for is one of the most famous series of compositions for cello, and it's the Bach's Cello Suites, Unaccompanied. You recorded them three times.

I did it once in my 20s, I did it once in my 40s, I did it once in my 60s. So every 20 years or so, I figured I might get it better. 1983 was the first time, 2018 was the last time. So the Bach cello suites are the music that really first forefronted the cello, as opposed to it being more of a background instrument, right? Well, it was written for cello alone, so there was no background or foreground. It had to be all ground, right? And they're beautiful pieces...

But they were kind of discovered or rediscovered long after his death, I think. And some people thought, well, they're great exercises. They're like technical exercises. They're not beautiful music until Pablo Casals recorded it.

So I would like you to demonstrate the difference between playing Bach as a technical exercise and then investing your musicality in it and making it beautiful. Because it's easy to think, oh, it's a kind of bunch of like

grand arpeggios, some of it. Sure. Well, I can play you one thing from Suzuki Book 5, which is... ... ... ...

Which is great. Everybody who plays Suzuki Book 5 will play this piece. But bourree is a dance, right? So you're thinking dance and a dance, a particular dance with steps and, you know, the...

The dance master would create a dance every week for people to dance on the weekends. So people were really working hard at dances. So... You put a kind of lightness to your step. It turns it into something that...

titillate someone else's imagination to say, "Oh yeah, I can dance to that." As Mark Morris Dance Group choreographed a whole suite to this music to dancers who then created a dance for this bourree.

Does that make sense? Yeah. So can you just play part of the most, what is to you the most beautiful part of the Bach cello suites? Just a short passage from it. Sure. Well, I'll tell you something. I know for one of them you'd have to retune. Let's avoid that. I won't retune, but I'll play you this part.

beginning, so this is the very first piece of music I learned as a four-year-old. You may have heard this before. And as a four-year-old, I learned it

And what was interesting for a beginning cellist, if you look at this... I just use one finger and it's the same pattern twice over. So the first day of learning this piece was very easy because I just used my finger once, the pattern repeats, and the second day was I used two fingers. ♪

Same kind of pattern with one change. Everything we have in life is about patterns. The same or different. We are constantly oscillating between the same and different. Right? And so it was easy for a child to learn things that had patterns to it. And when it was different, it was interesting. Now, why is this beautiful? Well,

As a four-year-old, I learned it fairly easily. Kids absorb things as a sponge absorbs water really easily. After nine years old, you don't pick up languages naturally. You actually start to analyze things, use your mind, and it's a different process of assimilation.

By the time I got to my 20s or 30s, this piece became hard because how do I play it? And what I discovered and what made it so beautiful for me is that whereas it was hard to start, but if I thought of an image of water, of a brook or a river, and if I thought that the piece started before I began...

and I just joined the water. You know what it is about a river? It's never the same river, but you always call it the same river, but the water's never the same. So if I think of a water element, here's what it ends up sounding like. ♪

You actually get to code infinite variety, right? In a world where we can measure everything, or we think we can measure everything,

How wonderful it is that you could have the poetry of music or poetry or music that actually makes you think you are touching infinity.

You learned this when you were four. That's when you started learning. And I'm 68. That means I've been trying to get this right for 64 years. You were quite the child prodigy. You were performing for presidents, current and former, by the time you were seven, right? Kennedy and Eisenhower, do I have that right? I guess so, yeah. Yeah, and...

You know, Leonard Bernstein came and heard you, right? So I'm wondering, when you're young and people are making such an amazing fuss over you, like you're so extraordinary, do you risk...

a praise junkie. Do you know? Because you get so much of it. And that's maybe your measure of your worth in the world. But music isn't always about getting praise. It's about finding your voice within the music. And I'm wondering, some people can't make that transition, I think. Some prodigies never find what's unique about their playing because what was unique was that they were young and gifted. Now, what's interesting about music

two-year-olds and three-year-olds, they are the center of their world. Right. And if you get a lot of attention, of course you want more attention. But I think as I was growing up, my wife and I have friends that say, Yo-Yo, you and your wife, you aspire toward normalcy. Now, that's interesting because...

Kids are really smart. They know no matter what you say, you go to a class, they figure out whatever hierarchy there is, who's smart, who's athletic, who does this, and who's a bully, and who's on a fast track. And they figure all of this. And I think we all have this aspiration to both belong and to feel special. Right.

Very true. All of us. So I didn't feel that I was particularly special because I didn't play with a lot of friends as a young person. And I never thought I was that special. A lot of people paid attention to me and said, you're this and you're that. And I wasn't sure that that meant anything or was true or whatever. But I was trying to figure things out. I was actually very confused.

About what? About everything. I'm an immigrant. I was born in Paris. My parents were Chinese. And guess what? When we moved from France to America, our French friends would say, "Why you go to America? This is the greatest country in the world." And once we arrived in America, Americans said, "This is of course the greatest country in the world. You've arrived!"

And my parents would say, well, you know, there's Chinese culture, you know, ancient culture, this is so great. And I was wondering, you know, then why are we in America? So I was very confused because people would say, choose, you must be one or the other, whatever. And I thought...

Why? Why do I need to choose? Because, you know, I love croissant. Do I have to give up croissant for Wonder Bread? I don't mind rice either, but I love potatoes too. Do we need to make a choice on everything? So when you were young and performing, were you nervous about it? And did you ever feel like, don't take this the wrong way?

But did you ever feel like you were a trained SEAL? Do you know what I mean? Like, here's the kid and he's going to perform for you. This is an amazing act because he's a kid. Because it's almost freakish to be that talented when you're that young and to be able to memorize and play such complicated music. Well, that's assuming that...

you're doing a comparative thing. I didn't particularly know what I was doing was, you know, good, bad, ugly, or whatever. I just did things. Now, yes, there's the part of me from two, not one, but two tiger parents. You've all heard of tiger parents? You know, Asian household. That, you know, I had to do, well, I had to

listen to them. There's not much dialogue. It's a lot of monologue, right? You do this, you're a good boy, you can do this, and this is the right thing to do. And I had a father who was an incredibly gifted teacher,

And he was a professor in China, a professor of music. He started a children's orchestra in New York. And he was just a really brilliant teacher, but irascible. And I had a mother who loved music, who was a singer, who actually loved to be moved by music. So I had both the head and heart sort of thing from either parent. And I think there was a lot of emphasis on...

trying to get things right consistently. So I had fantastic training. I had fantastic ear training. Did I know why I was doing something or what it was about? I think it was after I went away to summer camp and especially to college, where whatever I was doing and that I was passionate about was matched easily by experience.

my peer group being interested in their passions. And suddenly the world opened up. What was a kind of like a, you know, a uni world, a sort of hothouse atmosphere kind of world, opened up to sort of my, gosh, all this. Did you have a chance to be a child when you were a child? Because you must have spent so much time practicing. I am living my best childhood right now. Applause

One of the things I find really amazing about your life story is that you were so disciplined as a child. I mean, because you were learning so much stuff. I'm still disciplined. But you went through this period of actually rebelling. I'm still rebelling. Are you? Yes, of course. I'm rebelling against people doing things and not knowing why they're doing it.

I'm rebelling against people saying this is the only way to go. I'm rebelling against people saying this is right and this is wrong without ever explaining why. Yes. But when you were rebelling in school, you were cutting classes. Yes. Yes.

In Juilliard, you were sneaking out between orchestra breaks to get alcohol. Absolutely, absolutely. And got really drunk and went to the emergency room once. Absolutely. And my father had to check me out of the hospital because I was 15 years old. You had a fake ID. Yes. Yes.

He could not have been very happy about that. No. He gave up drinking because, you know, like guilt, shame, all of that stuff. Your father gave up drinking because you were a bad example? Yes, because he thought, you know, because my mother said, you know, see, you're a bad example for your son. It was horrible. Were you punished? Well, the shame and guilt was like, you know, if that's not punishment enough, it's like, you know, my father's only joy, you know, was a glass of wine. He gave that up.

Yeah, right? You see, I see everybody's... So was there a point where you weren't sure whether you really wanted to play music or whether that was just your father's idea? Well, let's put it this way. I loved music. I think after I went and started playing chamber music with friends at the Alexander Schneider's sort of Christmas string seminar, which is now known as the String Seminar,

10 days around the holidays where you just are playing chamber music and meeting 15, 16, 17 year olds. That's my version of fun. I wanted to join the Juilliard Quartet and play cello and be with friends. That was my goal. Did I want to be a cellist? Eh. Did I want to do that? Yes.

But you know what really inspired me most? When I was nine, I read a book by Pablo Casals. And he said in his book that I am a human being first, I'm a musician second, and I'm a cellist third.

And now, coming from my background and reading this from my hero, I thought, that man I like. How did that compare to the message you were getting from your father? Well, it was the opposite. It was the reverse, right? But you're a cellist first? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the right order for me always, always is you're a human being first, first.

And then you are a member of that sector of musicians second. And last, I'm a cellist. We're listening to the interview I recently recorded with cellist Yo-Yo Ma at an event held at WHYY where Fresh Air is produced. We'll hear more of the interview after a break, and I'll ask him to play what he likes to play for himself when he needs to get in touch with something larger than himself. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.

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This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded in May with Yo-Yo Ma, the beloved cellist who's famous for his performances of Bach solo cello suites and for the music he's played with the Silk Road Ensemble, which he founded to play music from around the world with musicians from around the world as a way of bridging different cultures.

He's won 19 Grammys and received the Presidential Medal of Freedom from President Obama. His latest album is a duet with pianist Catherine Stott called Merci. Our conversation was recorded at WHYY, where Fresh Air is produced, in front of a live audience. Was there a piece where you felt like you really found your voice as an individual, you know, as Yo-Yo Ma was?

as opposed to just like, you know, somebody who's incredibly talented, but this was your voice, your unique voice? That's a very interesting question. It implies that we all have a consistent one voice. And I dare say that all of us

of a certain age, have multiple voices. I think that's really literally true. You think that's true? Yeah, I think it's literally true. Because we were talking earlier about what you, Terry, and I, Yo-Yo, try to do is to make sure that at every stage in life,

that we acknowledge that stage and not try and pretend we're another stage, except for me, I'm still living my childhood. But that's different. That's an exception. But I would say that this music...

This is a sonata by Schubert. When I was 10, I was mesmerized by Schubert. And one of the things about Schubert that was amazing to me, and I think it appealed to me as a 10-year-old, was that in the happiest moments, there's sadness. And in the saddest moments, there's a glimmer of light.

And I think it's the gray, right? But it's not constant gray. And I think that's a lot of life. And I think as an immigrant, you're always aware of being able to be on the inside and the outside.

multiple times. How does the piece you just played relate to that? It has that poignancy, it has that wistful quality, and you're yearning for something, and it could be towards one way or another, and whatever. But I can tell you something else, that when I was 19, in college they had an orchestra, and I was asked to learn a piece of music that at first...

I was terrified or didn't even like, but I was incredibly attracted to it. And this is this piece of music. I'll play a little bit of this. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

Oh, I love it. You love that, huh? Yeah. I love the turmoil of it. Yeah.

So this was sort of, in a way, going to the dark side. And it's a piece that was written at the height of the Cold War, Shostakovich, you know, social realism depicting literally that very thing in society. And it's funny how we get...

So naturally into certain music like that Schubert I loved as a 10, 12-year-old. But for the Shostakovich, I wasn't born in the Soviet Union. I did eventually visit the Berlin Wall and saw all what people went through to cross the Berlin Wall with all the flowers placed every 50 yards for somebody who tried it and didn't make it. But it was through reading a book about Shostakovich, who I think devoted his life...

to advocating for the voices of people that were part of that system. And what is interesting is code. Everybody knew in Russia, in the Soviet Union, knew what that music was about. And it's harder to censor notes than words. But the messages were absolutely clear.

Once I understood that that was the kind of advocacy, it's no longer about my voice, but it's about my advocacy for the voices of people that didn't have the voices anymore. We're listening to the interview I recorded earlier this year with cellist Yo-Yo Ma at an event held at WHYY where Fresh Air is produced. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is Fresh Air.

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Mark pure joy off your holiday list with The Gift of Crash Cats, now available at Amazon.com. This is Fresh Air. Let's get back to the interview I recorded at an event with Yo-Yo Ma in front of an audience at WHYY, where Fresh Air is produced. He's the most famous and perhaps the most revered cellist in America.

You've performed at several very important commemorative events. You performed at the first anniversary of 9/11 at Ground Zero. You performed at an anniversary for the Boston Marathon bombing.

You performed in France by the Arc de Triomphe in commemoration of the end of World War I. And very recently, you performed for José Andrés' World Kitchen, which provides food for people in natural disasters and in war. And seven of his people were killed in Gaza.

and you performed at the ceremony, the commemorative ceremony for them. I would like you to talk a little bit about choosing appropriate music for such grave occasions and how you figure out what to play that will give people, that will enable them to fully understand

and deeply feel their grief while also providing some kind of consolation and community. And maybe you can play an excerpt of one of those pieces that you think speaks to that kind of need. Playing at the National Cathedral is always a special thing because it's that sort of like the national place for commemoration, for mourning, for celebration.

It's more than the Episcopal Church. It's a national place. And I think they did an incredible job of acknowledging an unbelievably complex situation. This was the Jose Andres commemoration? So there were seven people that were killed and Jose Andres spoke about

I thought in such a way that threaded the needle, acknowledging the 200 aid workers that have been killed, the 34,000 people, the 1,200 people, and he spoke individually for each of the people from the World Central Kitchen that died. So I started with this. ♪

Ernest Blocks from Jewish Life, followed by this piece from Adnan Saygun, who was the first national Turkish composer, Adnan Saygun, that Ataturk appointed. Followed by

Bach's Sarabande that actually originated in Africa, moved to Spain, was banned in Spain, moved to France, moved to South America, all as a dance, and then taken by Bach.

in what was not yet Germany at that time, that crossed all these boundaries, but a dance that started out that was danced by Bedouin women. You know, through music, you're crossing all those lines, six minutes of music, and somehow you can evoke the sense of place, of time, of just having been there.

Is there a piece that you like to play for yourself when you're alone and you need some kind of consolation or you need to feel something larger than yourself, you know, to connect to something larger than yourself that gives you what you need? You know what's funny? Music goes on in my head all the time. So you don't even need to play it? Is that what you're saying? I don't need to play it.

It's like, you know, my wife thinks I hate music because often she will have the radio on or something and I'll say, can you turn it off? And she says, obviously you hate music. And I say, no, I don't hate music. But I actually, you know, it's like, or she thinks that when I'm

I'm listening to a conversation and I'm bored, she'll say, oh yeah, you're thinking of fingerings and bowings. It's just like, you're imagining you're doing that. Because part of thinking is you think with, you know, you do analytical thinking, you do empathetic thinking, but you also do tactile thinking.

Some of you may be working on your golf game when you're at a meeting or you're thinking of how you can do a better serve. I mean, I don't know, but I think...

We are much more than what we think we are at any moment. Is there a piece that goes through your mind, since we can't get into your mind, that you could play for us to give you what you need when you need either consolation or to just get out of yourself and feel connected to something larger? I will go often... Are you asking me to play something? Yes, I am. Why didn't you just say that? I thought I did.

I thought I did. You wanted some action. Yes, exactly. So fine. All right. ♪

Okay, that was beautiful.

And we started with Tis a Gift to be Simple, went to Amazing Grace. I don't know what the third piece was. Well, that was actually the Going Home from Dvorak, which is from his New World Symphony. That was so beautiful. It also turned into a spiritual Going Home, and so it has a number of iterations. Oh, that was just beautiful. So can you...

Can you talk a little bit about why those pieces are significant to you? Well, I mean, I think we are all more than who we think we are, right? Because there's always unexplored parts. And I think with music, with anything that's created, if you look deeply enough into anything, I think you actually see the world. Right.

Simple Gifts, Shaker Song. Then Aaron Copland turned into Appalachian Spring. Suddenly had a different life. And we may know that song partly because of Appalachian Spring and then went back to saying, oh yeah, that's a Shaker Song, right? You know, Amazing Grace is

It's a song that's been spiritual, adapted from actually not a very religious person who wrote this, but he was in a storm and he survived and then became very religious. And, you know, there's a long story to that. And of course, today, Amazing Grace has so many places where it is, you know, core music.

for many social, human occasions. Dvorak, had he not come to America, had he not met Harry Burleigh, who introduced him to spirituals, and Dvorak, upon hearing Harry Burleigh's voice and music,

became friends with him, who just showed him all of this music and said, you know, this African-American music, the spirituals, is as great as any music I've ever heard. This is the soul of America. So Dvorak was...

hired by Mrs. Thurber to come to the United States to be the head of the American, the National Conservatory of Music in New York City for a number of years. He stayed only about three years and during this time he taught, he taught Harry Burleigh, he taught many students and he told the students what? He said to them, "Don't teach like me. Don't compose like me. Don't imitate me.

but listen to what's around you. Listen to the music of immigrants, listen to African American music and the Native American music. He traveled to find all of this. He said, this is where you're going to find the soul of America. And his students taught their students that way, and they became George Gershwin, Aaron Copland, and Duke Ellington.

We're listening to the interview I recently recorded with cellist Yo-Yo Ma at an event held at WHYY where Fresh Air is produced. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is Fresh Air.

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This is Fresh Air. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Yo-Yo Ma in front of a live audience at WHYY, where Fresh Air is produced. He's the most famous and perhaps the most revered cellist in America. I want to end by paraphrasing something that you've said, and I think this was in reference to recording the Bach cello solo pieces three separate times.

And you said that your approach was, this might not be perfect, it might not be the best performance, but it's the best I can do in this moment of my life. And I find something really beautiful in that because it expresses the commitment of doing your best in that moment. But it also has a kind of forgiving attitude that like, it's not going to be perfect, but it's the best I can do right now. And that that's going to be good enough.

I think that's a beautiful approach to things, to the music, and maybe to life. I think, to me, that's been my experience of your approach over the last 40 years. Oh, please. Thank you. No, seriously. Because, you know, I was going to ask you, how do you deal with burnout? How does anybody who does things for four decades...

avoid the trap of saying, okay, I'm caught in a rut. How do you rejuvenate, regenerate, and constantly be curious and active and do your best? I try and forgive myself because I don't want to be neurotic. I also don't want to fall under the spell of

of what I call an industrial aesthetic, which is your way of saying perfection. What do we do in industry? You make a million copies of something with the least amount of error. So here's a million copies, maybe it's six out of a million

I can't play a million concerts and have six bum concerts. That's an unreasonable thing to ask of a human being. What allows me to not be paralyzed is to just say, "I'm doing my best." And if it doesn't work, you know my intention is to do the best.

You were so wonderful tonight. You are so wonderful. Thank you, Ian. I love you, Terry Gross. You're our hero. My conversation with Yo-Yo Ma was recorded on stage at WHYY in May when he was presented with WHYY's annual Lifelong Learning Award. ♪

Special thanks to Yvette Murray, Julian Hertzfeld, and our other colleagues at WHYY who produced the event, and to Ben Mandelkern at Yo-Yo Ma's production company, Sound Postings. And thank you, Yo-Yo Ma. If you're looking for things to listen to over the holiday weekend, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of Fresh Air interviews, including this week's interview with John David and Malcolm Washington, who collaborated on a new movie with their father, Denzel Washington.

Thank you.

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