EP.4: [EN] Tascha Punyaneramitdee - Finding Alpha with Alpha Finance Lab / 在 Alpha Finance Lab 中发现 Alpha
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Hello and welcome everyone. I'm Mabel Zhang, the host of 51%, a podcast series presented by MultiCoin Capital. This show is an exploration of blockchain's rapid development across Asia, with a particular focus on the perspectives communities and operators face in China. My goal is to bring Eastern perspectives to West and Western perspectives to East, so you can better understand a crypto's unique market structure and how these distinct communities think and operate.

This podcast will feature a mix of English and Chinese discussions. The language you're hearing now will be the language I use for the rest of the podcast. Stay up to date with my latest episode by subscribing to this podcast or by visiting multicoin.capital.com. Thank you for listening.

Mabel Jang is a principal at Multiquin Capital. All opinions expressed by Mabel or other podcast guests are solely their opinion and do not represent the opinions of Multiquin Capital in any way. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as an inducement to make an investment or relied upon as investment advice. Multiquin Capital may at times hold positions in some of the tokens or companies discussed on this show.

Thank you for joining the number four episode for 51% podcast that we are running for the Asia podcast series. Today, we are having Tasha P from Alpha Finance Lab. Alpha Finance Lab is an ecosystem of cross-chain DeFi products that will interoperate to bring optimal alpha returns to users. Alpha products focus on capturing unaddressed demand in DeFi in an innovative and user-friendly way.

It is backed by global investors including Spartan Capital, Defiance Capital and Multicoin Capital. Tasha, thank you for joining. Thank you, Mabel, and very nice to be here.

Thanks. Could you tell us a bit about your background before we dive into the further discussion of DeFi and of course, Alpha? Like, how did you start into crypto? Sure. So I went to UC Berkeley. I studied economics and I started my career in traditional finance. So I worked in investment banking in San Francisco and then in London before I left to join Tencent as a product manager in Thailand.

After which, I also joined Band Protocol as a head of strategy and really helped them to drive usage of the Oracle among DeFi protocols. And that's when I dig deeper and really see there are a number of gaps in DeFi space that we can actually help

address and also move DeFi towards the next level. And that's when I left Band Protocol and started Alpha Finance Lab with Nipun, my colleague, earlier this year. Got it. That's very interesting. So in terms of the product manager role, I was actually a bit more curious. What is that exactly? And how did that relate to crypto? Or is it not necessarily relevant, but just interesting to know about?

Sure. So it's not related to crypto in a sense, because the product that I worked on is not on crypto space or on blockchain at all. So I was managing a product similar to News Aggregator and also machine learning content platform that's in Southeast Asia. So we were driving...

and pretty much growing pretty fast, that product within the Southeast Asian region. What I think that helps in terms of bringing the skill sets to Alpha Finance Lab organization

or even other roles, it's pretty much how to grow these adoption of new products. And I think the skills that I learned there is also very helpful in driving more usages of, for instance, Alpha Homora, or also more Alpha products that we're building.

Got it. That's very interesting. Yeah, I was going to ask you the same question, like how did your previous skill set going to help your experience? I answered all your questions already. Exactly. You read my mind. So if we were to ask you to define Alpha's vision in one or two sentences, how would you describe them?

Yeah, so how you described in the beginning is a very good way. The two main things that I really want to focus is that number one, Alpha Finance Lab

a DeFi lab. So we are building a number of DeFi products. So that's number one, right? Number two is that now when we look into the DeFi products that we build, what are they going to focus on? So the focus will be on capturing unaddressed demand. So you can think of it as, hey, how come the focus can be so broad? Like, why are we not specifying into a particular sector or

I think that's because DeFi space moves really, really fast. And also it's growing very fast. So as it grows at this, you know, DeFi pace, there will always going to be new developments

you know, unaddressed demand or market gaps that will pop up that we can quickly capture and then grow from there. And then at the end of the day, the important thing among alpha products is that we will have them interoperate and bring synergy to all the products. So pretty much right now we have one product, which is Alpha Homora. We are building the next product, which is going to be in the perpetual swap

area. So these two technically are in two separate areas. So Alpha Homora is more on the lending and youth farming side, but Perpetual Swap is more on the, you know, Perpetual Swap trading, right? But it actually has a lot of synergies and I can bring more on that. And Perpetual Swap product will also benefit Alpha Homora users. So I can share more on that later on as well.

Definitely. I will definitely come back to that question because it's very interesting and relevant to what I wanted to learn about. So actually going back to Alpha's vision, I'm curious, like, so for you guys, how do you define, sorry, how do you identify the unaddressed needs in the market? Do you try to follow like all the new protocols that are coming up or like how do you usually identify those needs? Yeah.

There are multiple things. Number one is that we always on the lookout for the overall what's going on. And after when you get a sense more and more of what's going on, then you actually see the hidden things that some typically people don't notice.

For example, the fact that there are so many ETH lenders and the ETH lending interest rate is really low. And this has just been something that people just take as is. Like, yeah, the lending rate on ETH is low. So what? But I think for our team, we take a different spin. And instead of just letting that go, we were like, okay, how can we actually solve this? Because there's actually demand in here. I mean, of course, everyone wants high lending interest rate.

I'm sure if you ask all the ETH holders, they're not going to say that they don't want high lending interest rate. So I think it's more on spotting these things by understanding the space, talking to a lot of people and pretty much getting up to date with the market.

That makes a lot of sense. So let's dive a little bit deeper into the first product. So to give the audience a bit more context for people who are not familiar with Alpha Homora, it is a leveraged yield farming and leverage liquidity providing protocol. E-lenders can earn high interest on ETH just like what Tasha just said.

Yield farmers can get higher farming APY and trading fees APY from taking on leveraged yield farming positions. And then the LP, liquidity providers, can get higher trading fees APY from taking on leveraged liquidity providing positions.

And this is how I would summarize how Alpha Homora works. So the product design itself is quite unique. I think previously, before Alpha Homora launched, I think people have thought about that idea because it definitely serves a group of traders who have a specific risk appetite. But I never seen it before it. So that's definitely a great initiative

So who were the initial audience in your view? So there are two main initial audience that we started with and then we grew from there. So the first is definitely the ETH holders.

So they can, instead of holding their ETH and not earning anything or earning less than 1% lending interest rate, they can deposit their ETH on Al-Fahomora and get very high lending interest rate. So as of now, the ETH lenders are getting about 6% lending interest rate. So six times or more.

higher than the other lending protocols. So that's number one. The other type of users that we target is yield farmers. So as we have seen, the yields from yield farming or liquidity mining has been coming down since June, July when it started.

And yield farmers are still searching for higher yields as they are used to the four-digit yields, right? So this leverage functionality actually enabled them to earn more yield farming APY and also trading fees APY. This, of course, comes with more risks. So the yield farmers have to monitor the positions closely and pretty much ensure that they

They pay back the debt as required before liquidations happen. But pretty much at the end of the day, it solves the problems of the e-lenders and also youth farmers. So these were the two original user base that we targeted with.

And then we, of course, expanded to liquidity providers who wanted to provide liquidity in the pools that they believe in or have liquidity of. Right. And they want to get more trading fees so they can actually earn more trading fees by taking leverage by in providing that liquidity.

So that's why right now on the farm page of Alpha Homora, there are two types of pools, the yield farming and the liquidity providing. Got it. So in the past...

month or two we saw Alpha Homora continuously supported new pools and added yeah I would say more passive strategies in my opinion Alpha Homora has become an aggregator product with passive strategies for people to choose from I think someone else on Twitter also made that similar comment so what's your expectation for Alpha Homora to grow in the midterm or longer term

Good question. And I'm going to tweak the question a little bit because we work pretty fast. So I'm just going to change the timeline to be near-term and mid-term. So near-term, of course, you're going to see more pools, but also we are partnering and integrating more with other protocols to make sure that we bring more value to not only the users, but also to the other protocols. And I think

What Andre Cranier did with Keeper Treasury earlier today gives an example of how we are looking to use Alpha Homora to help benefit the other protocols while bringing value to Alpha Homora too.

So to update the listeners who haven't got up to date in terms of what happened. So pretty much Andre proposed on the governance, on your endkeeper governance, that he is looking to move the treasury fund

of ETH and Keeper in the ETH Keeper Uniswap pool to Alpha Homora to pretty much earn more yields from the treasury. And that was on 21st of November. And pretty much today, the 24th, Andre has moved the liquidity from ETH Keeper

on Uniswap to Alpha Homora. And now Keeper Network also benefits from having their treasury grown from the lending interest rate on ETH that they get through Alpha Homora. So, you know, these kind of things are something that we're working on to find more angles to use Alpha Homora and bring more value to the other DeFi projects. So I would say that's the near term. The midterm, actually, there are a number of projects

you know, features and unique proposition that we're bringing. Particularly, for example, is that we would also allow the users on Alpha Homora to not only borrow in ETH, so they would be able to take leverage and borrow in stable coins. So this would be upcoming in the future, something we're working on as a new, you know, functionality.

supporting LP tokens. So this would also expand the user base even more. So let's say you already have liquidity, you already provided liquidity on Uniswap or SushiSwap, and you already have the LP tokens, right? And you don't want to go through the unwinding of LP tokens and then deposit the underlying assets to Alpha Homora. With the new version, we would also allow the users to just deposit

the LP tokens as collateral. So, you know, these are some of the things. Another point is also we are looking to work with more AMMs, so not just Uniswap and SushiSwap, which are the two AMMs that Alpha Homora is integrating with. So there are actually a lot of angles that we're expanding on Alpha Homora. The last point is also to

to bring more benefits to other protocols in a sense of not having the reinvestment function. So we thought that the reinvestment function brings more yields to users because technically the farmed tokens, for instance, UNI that's farmed is being sold into ETH and then reinvest back into the position.

So in the future, we are looking to not have that function, even though it brings yields to users. But we actually think it would bring more benefits to the other protocols to not have reinvestment function and pretty much allow the users to earn more of these farmed tokens. And they can perhaps use more on governance voting or other usages of these tokens.

Got it. You made a few very interesting points that I agree with. I think what you've described, it's a perfect example for how the DeFi compatibility comes along. And I think definitely adding the stablecoin pool, a lending pool, will be very useful.

pivotal for you guys to go up and scale to another level. So I'm very excited for that. Now, after talking a little bit about the midterm, long-term goal for Alpha Homora, you've been talking about Yote for a while. So I want to switch gear towards liquidity mining.

So over the summer, two of my colleagues, Tushar and Spencer, they wrote a piece called Exploring the Design Space of Liquidity Mining. So we've actually put in a lot of thoughts into that space. And we've seen you guys recently running the trading volume

I wonder how it goes. So far, we'd love to hear you sharing with our audience. And what was the initial intention to design the liquidity mining that way? So for the unfamiliar audience, trading volume mining is a new way to conduct liquidity mining where alpha rewards will be distributed out in a form of trading fees APY. The rewards will be reflected when one removes liquidity.

So yeah, please. Yeah, so typically, right, liquidity mining on AMM pools. So let's say like a pool on Uniswap and we want more liquidity in, for instance, the IBEs.

alpha pool typically what we can do is we can just have the liquidity providers provide liquidity and then stake the LP token to show that you know they provided the liquidity and then earn alpha airdropped into

into wallet. So that is something we could do, but we actually thought about it and then we came up with a new idea. And then we think this new idea, which we call trading volume mining would actually bring more benefits to Alpha project and also Alpha products while still allowing the liquidity providers to still get Alpha that they want, right?

So, how this works is pretty much that you would provide liquidity to IBEs alpha pool if you have only IBEs or if you have only alpha that works too on alpha Homora interface as we automatically and optimally swap for you. But then after that, the liquidity would be supplied to Uniswap.

And the rewards, when you mentioned that it's distributed out in trading fees APY, and that's mainly because we are pretty much doing the major trades for the users. So after the major trades, of course, we would have to pay the trading fees on Uniswap, which is 0.3% each trade.

So if you do a back and forth trade, that would be 0.6% trading fees that we pay to liquidity providers in terms of alpha. So by providing liquidity to this IBE's alpha pool, you're getting this very high trading fees back in a form of alpha tokens. So the reason why we do this is because there are multiple benefits. So number one,

of course, liquidity providers would still get alpha. So that remains, right? But what we get in addition to that is also, we also get more usage of alpha homora because that means that if users want to drive and not go through slippage,

they would need to provide both IBEs and Alpha. And in order for them to get IBEs, they need to lend their ETH on Alpha Homora first to get IBEs. And pretty much, you know, everything is all taken care of by Alpha Homora contract for sure. But from the user's perspective, they still just deposit the ETH or IBEs if they have IBEs, right? But on the back end, it actually drives more usage of Alpha Homora.

On the second point is that this drives more usage of IBE. So we think that, okay, we can actually drive more value to IBE holders so they can not only just earn interest on ETH, but they can actually in the meantime use this IBE that they have to provide liquidity to this IBE alpha and even earn more on trading fees.

And then the last thing, the third point is pretty much that by doing this way, we also get to bootstrap the trading volume on Uniswap for the IBEs alpha pair. And hence, that's where the name came from, trading volume mining instead of liquidity mining.

That's very helpful. For those who don't know, IBE is the interest-bearing ETH that's available through Alpha Homora. And definitely for those who are interested in participating in this liquidity mining, the trading volume mining, it's still available until December the 16th. So it's a free advertisement for you. Oh, thank you. Yeah, yeah.

Great. So I think we've talked quite a bit about Alpha Homora and you also mentioned a big part of the vision or like longer term vision is to actually integrate with more other protocols. So in the new pools that you supported in the past few weeks, do you see any partner community that was particularly supportive? Like it's engaging other communities, a strategy of Alpha?

Yeah, so in terms of the usage itself, the communities that we see, you know, getting very excited for Alpha Homora, mainly are DPI, which is DeFi Pulse Index. The second one is Yearn, of course, and third one is Band Protocol. So, you know, these three communities contribute quite a huge pool on Alpha Homora.

But in addition to these communities, though, there are a number of other communities, for instance, like AVE, Compound, who the communities themselves may not be aware

using Alpha Homora as much in their pools. But technically, the teams behind Aave, the teams behind Compound are some of the people that we are talking to pretty closely and trying to find angles of how we can help their products and get more usage from Alpha Homora too. So those are the two fronts in terms of the other communities.

But also what we've been doing to also start sharing more of these benefits to the other communities is to conduct Alpha Homora AMA or Ask Me Anything session in other communities to make sure that the other communities actually know of this functionality of their tokens.

and they can benefit from it. So far we have done an AMA with M-Stable, with SushiSwap, with Band Protocol, and then we have a few lining up and more scheduling in progress too.

That's definitely very exciting. I'm very looking forward to hearing those. The sessions you had in the past were actually quite good. So I would definitely recommend our audience to go check out. Now,

Now let's switch gears a little bit more, talk about the cross-chain functionality. So you described in Alpha Finance Labs description as the cross-chain DeFi lab. On November 20th, I've also noticed that you had an announcement about transferring Alpha across Ethereum and Binance Smart Chain, aka BSC.

Could you tell a bit more about the engagement with Binance Smart Chain? Any product plan there? Yeah, so we are pretty close with Binance Smart Chain team as well. And they've been supporting us before we even went on Binance.

And we're looking to support them and grow Binance Smart Chain with them. So we are looking to bring more products for sure to Binance Smart Chain ecosystem. And in fact, the Perpetual Swap product, which is the next alpha products that we are building now, it's also going to be launched on both Ethereum and Binance Smart Chain. So, you know, it will be coexisting on both platforms.

And depending on how usages vary, then we may add different functionalities, particularly on BSC as we see fit. Got it. So the plan to engage more, for example, AMMs, those are also part of the plan for the version on BSC, right? So you mean, yeah, like alpha token itself, right?

So earlier for Alpha Homora, you mentioned that you would like to engage with more than just SushiSwap or Uniswap. So I've noticed there are quite a few different AMMs on Binance Smart Chain. So I was just wondering if you were planning to engage with any of them or maybe that was like a later thing to plan on. Oh, I see. Yeah. So right now, Alpha Homora is only on Ethereum. Yeah.

And more AMMs that we are looking to integrate with will be based on Ethereum just because Alpha Homora is on Ethereum. But we still are considering as well in terms of launching Alpha Homora on BSC. We are doing the analysis in terms of the risks and growth plan. Because once we launch, it's not just...

That's it, right? We need to have a growth plan and what we plan to grow the product afterwards. So that's why it takes more time to actually decide whether we are going to launch when or not.

Definitely. I was actually last week at the Binance Smart Chain, the hackathon. There were actually quite a few interesting products that were to be launched. And I think the ecosystem there was also exciting to check out. So I'm very excited for what's coming up for you guys as well.

Now we talked about Alpha Homora as well as some of the cross-chain plan you guys have. How about the perpetual slot protocol that you mentioned earlier? Would love to chat a bit more on that one. So earlier you had a sneak peek of the next, that product in the suite. So how did you come up with the design and what were the challenges

I guess, current problem that you observe from the existing product on the market? Yeah, okay. So before jumping to answer that,

I'd love to talk a bit more on why we decided to build this product first. So pretty much once we launched Alpha Homora, we spotted more market gaps from it. And particularly, pretty much by opening leverage position on Alpha Homora, you are somewhat shorting ETH.

except you open at 2x leverage because technically, let's say you open at 2.5, some of the ETH that you borrow in this 2.5x would need to be sold into the other token. So you have equal amount of both tokens before supplying to Uniswap.

So technically, that's like shorting ETH. And pretty much we have a lot of community members sharing their interest of taking a market neutral leveraged position. What that means is that

they would still want to open leverage position on a Fahomora and shorting ETH, but they also want to make sure that there is a opposite long leverage position on ETH that's open too. So they are pretty much minimizing the downside exposure. Right?

Right. So we thought about that and then we actually considered, you know, offering this as another strategy on our Fahomora. But we thought, OK, why are we just limiting to just ETH when we can expand to any asset? So that means anyone can take ETH.

leveraged long or short of any asset at all. And this pretty much means this is a perpetual swap product, right? So this is the background story of how we come about building this product. And then when we started to analyze the market landscape further,

Not only that we see that the market landscape is really huge, if you compare the trading volume on, for instance, Binance with spot trading and perpetual swap trading, you know, there's a huge gap and difference between the two.

And then when we look into the DeFi space, we saw that there is no major player yet capturing this market in DeFi. So there are a number of things that we see that actually play out pretty well together. Not only it's large market, not only there's no major player, not only that there brings synergy to Alpha Homora offering market neutral leverage position.

So we look deeper into, you know, how we can build a better products offering different designs and pretty much, you know, bring something unique to to the users and something that they are looking to use.

And I can share more specifically in terms of the features we're looking to launch on the Perpetual Swap later when we make more announcements in terms of specific uniqueness of our Perpetual Swap product compared to the other Perpetual Swap products out there.

Got it. That totally makes sense. We'd love to hear you talk about it more when you guys are ready. I think, to your point, perpetual swaps are generally like synthetics products. It's something that people would love to trade on all the DeFi protocols.

With DeFi, the enabling of DeFi, you would be able to actually mix a bunch of assets and bring them on chain. And that's actually very, very powerful. And then the traders, many of them, to your point, they don't want to take any position. They're market neutral, so to speak. So this is definitely something unaddressed need right now that you're seeing in the market.

So looking forward to seeing that product launch. Right. We talked about some product aspect of Alpha. How about the community and operation? So you guys are operating in Thailand, right? Yep, correct.

Yes, you guys in Thailand. So I'm sure you've been observing some of the differences between the Eastern and Western communities when you're running Alpha. We'd love to hear what are some of the key differences you've been observing?

I think it's quite hard to compare, you know, Eastern versus Western. I think how I like to see it is pretty much more on, you know, the newer 2D5 versus those who've been in D5 for a long time, because these

these breakdown happen in Eastern and also Western communities. And I think one thing that I think is good for those who's been in DeFi for a long time is that before they start doing something, they would understand the risks first. So they would come on to our telegram and ask, where can I read more about the risks of providing liquidity or even the risks of taking leverage on Alpha Homora

and then read through the doc and pretty much ask a lot of questions from the doc. So I think that's something that we noticed. And for the newer to DeFi, for people who are newer to DeFi, I think that's something they should also start to do as well in terms of understanding the risks before jumping on the high APY because, yeah, there are risks with high APY.

And of course, the ideal product that we want to offer is how can we bring the highest APY and still minimizing the risks for users, right? And that's how we also think of, you know, how the perpetual swap can come in and play because technically with perpetual swap, you can also use it to hedge in permanent loss as well.

And pretty much in addition to hedge against taking short position on ETH, you can also hedge this impermanent loss risk. So once we have this perpetual swap product out and we have it integrate with Alpha Homora, then you will actually see an ecosystem of Alpha products that

not only work to generate high yields, but also give an option for users to find a way to minimize risk while still being able to get high yields. So I think this is something that we are quite excited about as we continue to move and innovate in the DeFi space. That's great to hear. So for...

I'm actually curious, like for your users, do you guys get to see where they're operating from? What's the percentage of, say, American users or European versus like Asia? I'm curious to see the distribution. Yeah, so I would say...

in the US would be the main user base as of now for Alpha Homora. And then it would be an equal split between Europeans and Chinese actually. And then the rest, let's say like Southeast Asia or the other regions would contribute a smaller amount.

Got it. That's very interesting. I actually want to talk a bit more about Southeast Asia because I think this region is actually very little discussed in the space. What's the trading culture

of the traders on the ground? So I think we have quite a good receptance of crypto in Thailand. I cannot speak to the other Southeast Asian countries yet, but

But from the research report that was available earlier this year, it was about 10 to 15 percent of the population actually owns crypto. So I think that's actually pretty huge, especially when there's no movement from the government or from the big corporates at all. So I think this is a good sign for retail adopting crypto and in the future DeFi as well.

Got it. That's super helpful. Yeah, we'd love to see definitely more people from Southeast Asia on board. And I noticed that the user behavior in different countries within Southeast Asia also differs a lot. So maybe in the future when we invite someone else from other countries, they can talk about that as well. Yeah. Yep. So...

I think I will love to move towards a bit more general discussion about DeFi. So for you guys, you've been trying to solve some of the problems that you identify within the system. But you've been also trying to, say, leverage some of the other people's code or even just integrate other people's DeFi protocols to make certain things work better. So in that sense...

the open source code within DeFi protocol is not the defensible mode. So in your view, what's the biggest defensibility for not necessarily Alpha Homora, but generally for DeFi protocols? I think there are multiple things. Number one is that

One of the key modes would be being able to spot opportunity fast and make sure that they act on it and pretty much capture the opportunities. Because as we have seen, DeFi space is really, really fast.

like 10 times faster than then or even more than a typical you know industry so if let's say the teams or the other projects uh have their original plan based on what happened last year and pretty much started to to uh you know execute on that plan and then not actively looking for

understanding the space and pretty much capturing the new opportunities, then that can be quite in a dangerous situation where the products that they spend time building would not get that much receptance when they launch. Maybe that's because the demand that they thought there would be has already been addressed in other ways, or maybe

There are other bigger market gaps that the users are looking to use the product for. So I think being able to spot that opportunity fast and capturing it is very important. The second thing is, of course, by spotting that opportunity, you have to also be able to act fast upon it. So that means that the way you work would need to reflect that too.

And that also means that the team that you build need to be pretty strong to be able to move pretty fast while still maintaining the security of the product. Great. This is helpful. I'm sure a lot of our DeFi builders are also thinking about this in the space.

In China, there are a bunch of Alpha enthusiasts. I've joined a few fans groups or community groups on WeChat. That's definitely encouraging. Any plan to engage with the community more in the future?

Yeah, so we are looking to do more, you know, live streaming sessions for Chinese communities to show more of our, you know, background, identity, and pretty much to make sure that they have a way to ask anything and contact us directly.

in the future. But even now they can also join our WeChat group, which is official and it's run by community managers in our team.

And if not, you can always ask me anything on Telegram or Discord. We're pretty active and we answer those questions seriously. So, you know, we are always open for sure. So if any of the listeners have any suggestions on how we can engage with the Chinese community better, then you can ping us on WeChat or Telegram or Discord.

Got it. Any way that I can leave this person's this community managers contact in the podcast? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, please feel free. And you can leave the QR code for the WeChat too.

Yeah, for WeChat, it's not that permissionless for what it's for. After 200 people, you won't be able to scan it. And also the QR code has an expiration date. Oh, right. Okay. For the community manager. And then he can add. Exactly.

Exactly. It's a bit interesting to observe those differences. That's why I had the question for you about comparing the Eastern and Western, because I was curious to hear from someone who's building in Southeast Asia if you would have some other opinions about it, just like from my opinion.

yeah for my my observation there's definitely a lot of differences between running an al community in in america versus like running one in china

Right. Great. This is fantastic to hear and we are very excited to see you continuously engaging both the Western community and all the other users around the world and seeing the global users are actually very happy with how Alpha has come along.

What you've shared today was super helpful for all of us who are the listener of this podcast and obviously some of the other potential interest members who are looking to join but wanted to learn more. So thank you again, Tasha, for joining me today. This has been a fantastic episode. Thank you, Mabel, and thank you, everyone, for listening.