EP.35 [EN] - Allen Lee: Finding the Long-term Alpha from Beta Finance / 从 Beta Finance 中寻找长期制胜秘诀
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Hello and welcome everyone. I'm Mabel Jiang, the host of 51%, a podcast series presented by Multicoin Capital. This show is the exploration of blockchain's rapid development across Asia with a particular focus on the perspectives, communities, and operators based in China. My goal is to bring Eastern perspective to West and Western perspective to East so you can better understand the crypto's unique market structure and how these distinct communities think and operate.

This podcast will feature a mix of English and Chinese discussions. The language you're hearing now will be the language I use for the rest of the podcast. Stay up to date with my latest episode by subscribing to this podcast. Thank you for listening.

Mabel Jang is a principal at Multicoin Capital. All opinions expressed by Mabel or other podcast guests are solely their opinion and do not represent the opinions of Multicoin Capital in any way. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as an inducement to make an investment or relied upon as investment advice. Multicoin Capital may at times hold positions in some of the tokens or companies discussed in this show.

Hello everyone, welcome back to 51%. This is Mabel Zhang, your host. Today we are having the founder of Beta Finance, Alan Lee, to join us. Welcome, Alan. Thanks for having me, Mabel. No problem. Beta Finance is the first project that's going to be launched on Alpha Launchpad. Before we get into that, what's your background and how did you get into crypto? Yeah, really excited to be on the podcast today. So

I graduated from MIT where I studied CS. I did both my bachelor's and master's there. And kind of how I got into crypto was actually in the fall of 2018, so right after the ICO craze, where MIT offered its first decentralized systems class.

And so this was a class that was focused on blockchain developments and was actually taught by one of the founders of Y Combinator, Robert Morris. And so that's what kind of like piqued my interest into the space in the beginning. I was like,

oh, if this guy who's such an established figure in tech is interested, then there must be something promising in this space. And so I kind of dived deep into crypto at the time, did a lot of research, read a lot of papers, and then built out this really simple social dApp, which was kind of like a Twitter feed.

But that was built on the block stack. That was built using block stacks, so the Bitcoin blockchain. And it was really cool. But after that, I kind of put crypto on hold because we were kind of in like a two year bear market. But I always kept it in the back of my mind and was aware of all the major developments that were ongoing.

And I kind of pivoted more towards like focusing on AI, did a lot of really cool research, published a few papers, and then worked at both Facebook AI and Microsoft Research where I continued to work on optimizations for ML models. And then kind of when DeFi summer rolled around, I had a lot of friends that were actively involved in crypto and

started playing around with a lot of different protocols again. And that's kind of how I came back into this space this past year and really like fell in love with it, really fell in love with like all the innovation that was going on in DeFi right now and saw a lot of ways in which I could make an impact as well. And so, yeah, that's kind of a bit of background about myself and why I'm in the space right now.

Got it. So you really had a pretty technical background per what you described. So what does beta finance really do? How did you come up with the idea?

Yeah, so beta finance is a permissionless money market for borrowing, lending and shorting assets. And this means that anyone, anywhere and at any time can create a money market for any token and also easily manage and initiate short positions.

And my inspiration for why I decided to create beta in the first place was because I saw that there was a lot of volatility in crypto. This probably comes as no surprise to anyone who's been involved in this space, but I see this volatility as something that really harms the long-term adoption of DeFi by both individuals and institutions.

And so I wanted to figure out a way in which we could really combat this volatility. And what came to mind was shorting, because if you look at traditional finance, this is a really critical piece of financial infrastructure and tooling that institutions use in order to make the market function more efficiently and also more stably.

And so that was kind of my inspiration for looking more into the problem. And then kind of when we were in like a mini bear market in like October, November this past year, I was trying to initiate some short positions myself. And I realized this was like a very complicated technical process that a lot of DeFi users wouldn't be able to like have access to without proper technical know-how.

This looks like you having to borrow from a money market, swap through a DEX, then manage these positions manually yourself. And it's just like a very complex, tedious process that I think could have been made a lot better. And so that was kind of my inspiration for why I wanted to build beta finance is to really create new fundamental Lego building blocks in DeFi that we can build upon. And I'm starting this by building out this new permissionless money market, as well as

short-selling tooling, which I think are really fundamental pieces of financial infrastructure that are missing in DeFi right now. Right. So I actually would like to dive a little bit deeper on your personal experience trying to short before you created Beta Finance. What were some of the pain points that you found? Right. I think that's probably something interesting to dive into. Yeah, for sure. So

I actually lost a lot of money because of how complicated and tedious the process was. So I would first have to identify some money market that supported the token I wanted to short. And as we know, most money markets don't really support that many tokens. Compound only supports, I believe, a dozen assets right now.

And then I would have to go to a DEX, like swap this token that I want to short to some other token like USDC to hold long on. And then I would have to manage all my positions on literally like a Google Sheet. So I would have the token name, the price, how much the borrow APY was for the token I shorted and have to like

keep track of like all these values while monitoring whether or not my position had gone underwater or not based off of the collateral i posted and as you can imagine like this requires

not only interacting with multiple protocols, but a lot of time to execute these transactions. And when there's high volatility, prices can spike super suddenly and you can get liquidated on a moment's notice. And it's not very easy to recolateralize your position either because I'm going through multiple different money markets rather than one central platform. And so

As I had more and more positions as well, it became not just like a linear problem, but like exponentially harder to manage. And so I kind of just essentially like gave up and realized that like I would take these losses and that shorting wasn't really like a feasible thing for DeFi users right now.

And that really drove me to start building. That's very interesting. Yeah. I mean, like the process you described was also quite high friction, right? Like if you were trying to like swap and then if that liquidity is not deep enough and then you'll have to also take a lot of friction from that as well. So I know we are here. Can you walk us through what's the experience for a normal user interacting with beta finance?

Yeah, so in contrast to that really complicated process I just explained, on beta it's really simple. Essentially what you have to do is you just find the token on the beta finance dApp, either by passing in the token address or searching, and you'll be able to just click a button that says "short"

And it'll bring you to this like simple one click interface that we've built for you to easily initiate a short position. So you don't have to worry about like where, like which money market you need to go to, to find the token you short or like which decks you're going to swap through. We'll handle all of that complicated back of,

all these complicated transactions automatically for you. And so all you need to do is enter a number for how much collateral you want, enter a number for how much you want to short, and then click a button. And

And then once you've initiated the short position, we have a really simple dashboard as well that allows you to actively monitor how your positions are doing. So what the current prices are, how much interest you need to pay, what is your current LTV ratio so that you're not at risk of liquidation. And we also make it really easy for you to either refi...

fill or repay your position. So what I mean by this is like say your LTV value is a little bit too high for comfort right now, you can easily just add more collateral by again clicking a button. So no need to like go through a ton of different protocols or websites to initiate your positions and manage them. We provide like a truly integrated experience for our users.

That's great to hear. So two follow up questions here. First of all, you mentioned it's permissionless. So how would be the process of someone wanting to add an asset? Or would you say like at the beginning, it's more kind of a DAO process, like people voted up?

Yeah, that's a great question. So by permissionless, we really mean like completely permissionless and that anyone can just like pass in the token address and it'll pull up a card which will just determine whether or not the money market is currently active. And then a user, any user can just like click a button that says create asset and then it'll create a money market permissionlessly and automatically. There's no need to go through a DAO or governance or the team in order to onboard this new money market.

which I think is really awesome. And then in terms of like the DAOs role, this is more on the side of like adjusting what kind of like risk tier the money market will be at. - I wanna maybe ask you a few more questions on that later. And then the second follow up question was, so you mentioned a few DEXs and who are going to decide like which DEX the transaction is gonna route through?

Yeah, so at launch, we'll be supporting SushiSwap and Uniswap v2 and Uniswap v3 for DEXs that the user can choose to swap through when initiating a short position. And then this is for mainnet. And then for BSC, it'll be PancakeSwap. And then in the future, we have plans to build out a DEX aggregator such that we're able to get the best possible price for our users as well.

Mm-hmm. Understood. This is definitely interesting. So I want to talk about the risks here. But before that, I want to ask you another question around the money market. So obviously, I think people who are familiar with the DeFi primitive state

they would understand it is very hard to bootstrap a money market themselves. And then obviously, once you establish the network, in fact, it's actually also hard to beat. I mean, just look at Aave, look at Compound. So why did you choose to build your own money market in addition to your short selling feature? What are, I guess, some of the missing pieces you've seen in the existing money markets?

Yeah, great question. So as you mentioned, like Compound and Aave are like big players in this space. But one of the big problems that we see with these protocols is that the way that they were designed is they allow for like pool-based collateralization. And what this means is that they're more like risk averse to supporting more volatile assets.

So as I mentioned earlier, Compound only supports 12 assets, Aave supports a little bit more but not much. But if you think about it, there are over 1,000 actively traded pairs on Uniswap and more and more tokens are being launched every day. And so this really means that over 99% of tokens that exist in DeFi just don't have a money market. And oftentimes these long tail assets are also the assets that have the most short interest.

And so we, from day one at Beta Finance, have also been working towards building out a product with a short selling framework in mind. And we believe that in order to really enable the best possible experience and accessibility for this tool, we also had to build a money market ourselves, such that we were able to support more assets like

on our protocol and give users a much better experience and much better optionality for what tokens they could short.

Understood. Yeah. So you mentioned right now, a lot of these money markets, they do not support a majority of the crypto assets on the market. But then, you know, obviously different types of assets have very, very different risk profile. And you mentioned about the risk hearing. So I'm curious to hear what are the, I guess, general approach of how you guys think

determine what are the tiers. And you don't have to go into details, but you can just kind of broadly describe the approach. Yeah, for sure. So we take a more like quantitative approach for determining like what the risk framework for an asset will be. So

What this looks like is we look at for each token, we look at metrics such as the price volatility over different time periods. We look at its volume, its trading volume, its market cap, how many transactions there are, how many token holders there are, etc. And we kind of aggregate these metrics together and

determine kind of this like point based system for each of these categories, where you can imagine like based off of different tiers for where the exact value in each of these metrics fall, there will be like a certain point value. And what we do is we like sum up these point values and then based off of where that value ends up, it'll be assigned a certain risk tier from like S to F.

And one thing I also want to note is whenever a new money market is created permissionlessly, it'll be assigned a risk tier of F because we don't have much information of that money market upon creation. But this can be easily changed by community governance and voting. I see. So it's not an optimistic approach. It's actually assuming that it's the worst. And then I think that's probably a fair assumption to make.

Yeah, we wanted to err on the safer side. Absolutely, I think. Especially you're dealing things with these highly volatile assets.

So right now on the market, I'm sure you've seen and heard Kashi from Sushi, which is under their bento box, and they're doing the leverage trading for different pairs and maybe some other ones that are not launched, like Timeswap. I think one of the blogs they researched, they published that as well. How would you compare yourself with some of the

I guess not competitors per se, but definitely the players on the similar sector. How you differentiate from them. Yeah, Sushi's Kashi is doing something really interesting. I think their product and tech is very cool. But I think the reason why I see beta finances pretty different from Kashi is because we have a different technical framework.

So on Kashi, they use this fragmented pair-based model for supporting more assets. And so what this means is say you have Axies token, you have a money market for Axies token.

But because it's a pair-based model, you could have multiple pairs. So there could be five different lending pools for Axies that are all disjoint. Like Axies ETH, Axies USDC, Axies USDT, Axies DAI. And each of these pools has a different lending APY and borrow APY, which means that if you're a lender on the protocol, then...

you would need to move your tokens around constantly in order to maximize your yield because the pool that has the highest lending APY is inconsistent. It may change. Whereas in contrast on beta finance, we don't have this fragmentation.

We only have one single lending pool for each token's money market. And so what this means is as a lender, you know that you're able to make the maximum possible yield on your token without needing to worry about moving it around or seeing that suddenly you're not getting as high of a return as you thought you would be getting.

And the other point I want to add is like, we have this like short selling tooling, which is driving a lot of utilization for these lending pools, right? And so we expect the APYs to be like,

probably we expect the APYs to be greater than what you would see on existing money markets because we're driving this additional utilization rather than just enabling people to take leverage while we do also allow people to take leverage on our protocol as well. So these are like two fronts in which we see Beta differentiating ourselves from Kashi.

I see. Yeah, I mean, like, I guess for their approach, they were also trying to segregate the risk. Because for a trading pair, say, a more major one, like Sushi versus Uni, versus some other, like, very volatile versus Uni, I think the risk they're taking for the pool of the asset is very different. The liquidity pool is very different. I think maybe that was one of the other reasons that why they're segregating that. Or would you agree with it? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, that makes sense. Right, yeah. I thought about this too, just because I think when they launched it, people were asking why you're segregating all these different pools as trading pairs. But I think this is back to the idea that MCDEX, for example, they would allow people to create permissionless pool

But then the person who started the pool, they would have the ultimate control over whether they allow other people to share their liquidity with them. Or if they think, okay, if this asset, again, it's too volatile or too risky, they may not let that other person to share with them. So I thought this is kind of similar.

Yeah, for sure. So for the users of beta finance, what are the types and what are the demand that you are trying to satisfy for them?

Yeah, so we really see beta finance addressing the needs of two major groups of users in DeFi today. On one side, we have traders who want to be able to short sell some of the most volatile crypto assets today. And on the other side, we have token holders and yield farmers who are holding onto these long tail assets and currently unable to earn additional APY.

And so by creating the beta finance protocol, we're now enabling traders to short the long tail of assets in addition to popular assets and really like enable them to more easily initiate and manage their short positions. And they'll in return pay like a premium in order to initiate these positions. And then on the long tail token holder side, now we see them as being able to like stake their tokens or lend them out, um,

by depositing it into the protocol and start earning additional yield on these tokens rather than just like letting it sit in cold storage. And so we think we're really driving a greater utilization and capital efficiency in the market today. - I'm curious about the,

So I'm curious about the liquidation process. I know on Alpha Finance, the team probably have determined some of the nuance setting for the parameters in different pools. How does data deal with this? Yeah, just to clarify, are you asking about like, what is like the liquidation threshold? Correct, for different assets. Got it. Yeah, so we again, like,

did this based off of the similar risk framework that I mentioned earlier. But this was more so focused on analyzing the price volatility as well as cross-referencing with the liquidation thresholds that other protocols use. So for example, Aave, Compound, Alpha. And we wanted to find a

the right value such that if a liquidation needs to occur, then if there was suddenly a worst case scenario where there was a sudden spike in the price, then the liquidation would still be profitable for someone to come in and liquidate rather than just leaving it to continue to go underwater. And so

Yeah, I guess to summarize, we did an analysis of the price volatility for tokens and then cross-referenced these values with other protocols. Got it. So assume that you have bootstrap alt liquidity pools and many of those are small cap assets. Would you be open for people to borrow that to...

I guess, doing flash loans? Because I think one of the pain points on the market right now is that for the mid-cap to small-cap assets, there's just no single source of liquidity pool for them to get the liquidity for flash loans. But I mean, I know it is a very integrated process for now on beta finance. People don't have to worry about a lot of things. They just click the buttons and do it. But would the liquidity pool be open for some of the other actions?

actions like that? Yeah. So yes, people would be able to perform flash loans with the beta lending pools if they directly interact with our smart contracts. But they would need to, again, make sure that the transaction is valid in order to perform the flash loan.

Got it. Yeah, so it is, I mean, I guess it is open for permissionless. I would probably reconstruct my question as more like, would you make the UI more friendly? But I guess like most of the people who are doing the flash phones are already technical enough. They do not have to go through your UI regardless. But that was just like a thought that I had just now. Yeah.

Yeah, to answer that question, I think I would choose not to include flashloans directly in the UI. The reason for this is because I feel like flashloans are a bit more technical to use and that it might confuse your average DeFi user. And we want to keep the process and experience as simple and easy to understand as possible. And then

Additionally, we see Flashlands mainly being used by more technical people to execute more complex transactions. But it would be interesting to, in the future, maybe build additional products on top of beta that provide for some of these more complex transactions. And then we abstract them to make it more easy for users to have access to. That's for sure. Good to hear that.

So why the name beta finance? Is it because you were incubated by alpha? Yeah, we get asked this question a lot. It was actually not because we were incubated by alpha. Hard to believe. But the reason why I chose the name beta was because beta is actually like a coefficient that's used in traditional finance. That's a measure of volatility.

And because our mission at Beta Finance from day one has been to really offset the volatility that we see in the markets today, that's why we chose the name Beta. And then coincidentally, we are incubated by Alpha Launchpad. And so there's a really good marketing naming scheme there. Got it. That's pretty funny.

So let's say I'm at your position back in like last year, you were trying to short. What would be the difference for me, I guess, like why would I choose beta finance over trading futures contracts to short?

Yeah, that's a great question. So futures contracts like perp, um, like MC decks as well, they do offer you the ability to like short, um, a future of perpetual futures. And, um,

But the process or the experience as well is like pretty different from actually like short selling spots. So for example, we don't have the things like a funding rate. We just have like an interest rate that needs to be paid back when you close your position.

And in addition, with Spot, you're having direct impact on the price. Whereas with futures contracts, it's really more of like a proxy to the price. Like we see that futures prices aren't exactly like one-to-one with the price of the underlying token. There's usually like a few percentage deviation. And additionally, because of this, like,

enabling spot short selling really opens up new hedging strategies as well. So for example, you could have delta neutral strategies that you can now initiate because of beta, where say you've holding a token long and earning yield farming rewards. Now you can be delta neutral by conversely shorting it, earning beta rewards, for example.

Or for example, if you have tokens that are locked up and you need to stake them, there's an unlocking period after you've unstaked a token, which is pretty common with some of the major tokens. You can now immediately short sell that token and hedge the profits and then repay your debt when your token unlocks.

So these are some of the differences that are really enabled by having on-chain short selling for Spot rather than just relying on futures contracts.

Yeah, I think that's certainly a really good point about for people to have more flexibility, like what for them to keep versus like they do not have to like post a collateral and whatnot to a futures trading platform and do all that. And another additional point that you just mentioned was the deviation from the price. It seems to be not that obvious during,

the normal time, but you know, that could actually have a big deviation when the market is very heavy. So I think that's also a very interesting point too. And then now that we talked about mechanism, I would like to maybe pivot a little bit, talk about the token itself. So how's the native, so you have a native token called beta. What are the token economics?

Yeah, so users will be able to use the beta token for things like voting. So for example, like adjusting the risk framework, what collateral we support on the platform, product developments. They'll also be able to earn protocol fees. So 20% of all interest paid by borrow and short positions on the protocol are paid out to beta stakers.

And we believe that these protocol fees as well will be much higher than what you see on existing money markets. And this is because we have like this higher volume from our short selling tooling that is driving a lot of like activity and like utilization. So the fee, the protocol fees are probably going to be much more similar to like DEXs than existing money markets. And additionally, there will be like,

a way for you to earn additional beta rewards through liquidity mining. And then as the first launchpad, alpha launchpad project, how would beta kind of drive some additional value to the alpha users or alpha ecosystem players?

Yeah, for sure. So one of the first things is as a Launchpad project, alpha token holders will be able to stake their alpha tokens in order to earn beta rewards. So this way, alpha token holders can get some exposure to beta as well. And additionally, because we are an incubator project, we'll have the opportunity to

have like an integration with Alpha products. So this is kind of an Alpha leak, but we do have like an integration coming up with Alpha Hamora that will be launched, which will integrate some of the features that we see on beta with some of the features we see on Alpha.

Mm-hmm. Understood. And then your experience, I guess, since you're the first one, maybe you can kind of share a little bit about that going through the Launchpad incubator program. And then maybe what could be some of the advice that you provide to external people if they want to apply for the Launchpad?

Yeah, for sure. So I would say the Alpha Launchpad program has been an incredible experience. It's really...

a program that was started by founders for founders. So they really understand all the details and challenges that founders will encounter, especially in crypto when going from zero to one. And especially right now, they're like one of the most established protocols in DeFi. And so they have a lot of great

insights into a lot of the early mistakes they made early on and ways in which you weak as incubator projects could avoid. And so having that founder insight and founder mentality from your advisors is a really great aspect to being part of the incubator program.

And another thing I also want to add is like the incubator program itself offers a great blend of strategy and technical advising. And they help grow not only the founders, but also the team skills on both these fronts, no matter like what your starting point is. So from my own experience going through the process, I came in with a more technical background. But now, like I feel very comfortable in both strategy and technical becoming a much more well rounded founder. And

And so it's always great to have crazy smart advisors to bounce ideas off of and get fast feedback from as well. And I really feel like all of my work was just 10 times more efficient because of this.

And in terms of like advice I would give to projects that are looking to apply, I would say that I would highly encourage like all teams with great project ideas to apply to the program. And my advice is that it would be best to have some initial MVP code written already, not necessarily like a full product or anything, but something that is like,

that enables like Alpha to evaluate the product more. So for example, I wrote like a few like simple like smart contracts as well as like mocked up like a design of the interface on Figma when I like first presented my project idea to the Alpha team.

And I would also say that you should think really deeply about what are the unmet needs in DeFi and take a more principled approach for what you're trying to build and have a solid framework for why you started in the first place. Because I think it's really important to have a strong vision of where you want to take the project as a founder.

Yeah, you brought up a very good point. I think for both alpha and beta, one great thing that I really appreciate is that you always have

at least from the very beginning, the MVP or even just the initial phase, you always had a very clear, defined problem that you want to solve. And then you know who are the users that you're trying to cater to for those unmet demand. So I thought for projects,

to kind of begin in DeFi today, because like there are so many primitives have already been built. So it's really about like, what are some of the, you know, big pain point, even if they're just one that you can solve and then start with that. And then maybe you can develop like some other connections and whatnot, you know, going afterwards and then, you know, starting from there. So I think, you know, what you gave advice is just super, super helpful.

Right. So in addition to like, you know, building the product yourself, you know, having having a web app or integrated with some of the mobile apps, what is your go to market strategy for you to get more users involved?

Are you thinking of maybe working with some other protocols to get integrated so that the users can start using beta more easily? Or maybe there are some other things that you were thinking of? Yeah, for sure. We definitely have plans to have a lot of partnerships with other leading protocols. So for example, introducing this short selling tooling primitive enables people to take much

more complex strategies as well. And so there are potentially a lot of interesting integrations we could have with other protocols such as like Yearn or like Curve that really enhance what products they're offering. And we're also trying to work closely with some algo stable protocols on having their token as a supported collateral on beta finance as well.

I can't really go into too many details about which protocols we have partnerships right now, but we do have a few and it'll be very exciting to tell you guys more about them when the partnerships are ready. Right. And I'm sure you get this question a lot. I still want to ask, how do you think of multi-chain strategy? Would you say Ethereum and

like Binance Smart Chain are the ones that you want to start with and then maybe expand to some other ones or would you be more focused for the current stage? Yeah, I would say that multi-chain is very important to us. We think that it's important for projects to go cross-chain because as we've kind of seen with existing projects, if you don't go multi-chain,

multi-chain, then someone will just come in, rip your project off, and then just relaunch the same thing on the chain that you didn't launch on. And so we want to avoid that problem for two reasons. One, because we want to ensure that users who are interacting with the product we built really get the top of the class experience. And they're going to get that from the people that came up with the idea in the first place.

And second is because we see as like launching multi-chain as something that's very necessary in DeFi because we're trying to reach as many users as possible. And so we're starting on Ethereum and BSC because of that, because these are where most of the users are right now, but we also have plans to scale to some like layer two solutions in the near term, such as Polygon and like Arbitrum, which are gaining a lot of traction and the recent few months. And so, yeah,

Although we are always focused on giving the best-in-class experience on the main chain, such as Ethereum, we will make sure that we don't neglect other chains as well. Right, and then you'll probably have to also work with some other cross-chain protocols to help streamline that process for users as well.

Yeah, exactly. Like figuring out how the bridging is going to work, et cetera. What would be the long-term vision for beta finance? Yeah. So,

Starting off with beta finance, we're first building some fundamental building blocks with this money market and the short selling tooling. But in the future, we want, just as Uniswap is kind of like the go-to DEX for spot trading, I want beta to become the...

for borrowing, lending and short selling assets. So this means that anyone who's trying to like initiate a short position or open a new money market, they will come to beta finance. And I wanted beta to grow such that like whenever a new project is launched, they're like, we need a pool on beta finance, just as everyone's like, we need a pair on Uniswap. And this is because like, we really want to become like

a top protocol in the space. And in addition, we have a lot of plans in the future to build additional products on top of beta finance that leverage these primitive features in order to kind of abstract more complex strategies or transactions that are possible now with our protocol and make them more accessible to users as well.

So these are kind of like the few things that I really see beta finance growing into in the future. This is great. This is absolutely very ambitious. And, but also I think great to hear that you have thought about this even before the product launch. So when, when can our, when can our, our users start to use maybe, or maybe there will be a public test net. Yeah. So yeah,

We have plans to launch Q3 2021. We will be updating our followers as well as like on our social media channels actively when the launch is coming up.

So if you want to stay up to date with the latest details on our products, as well as the status of the launch, be sure to follow us on Twitter. It's at beta underscore finance. You can also get access to our Telegram, Discord, and Medium by going to our website, which is betafinance.org.

This is great. I think this also kind of gets to our perfect ending for this podcast. I really appreciate you coming over to talk about data finance, Alan. Thank you for joining. Thanks, Mabel. It was great speaking with you.