The Self-Driving Unicorn You Need to Meet & MicroStrategy's Bitcoin Bet | E2052
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Whenever people make up new terms for a revenue or expenses, any of this stuff is gonna a pink flag for a red flag. Pink flag is what I wave on the way to a red flag. Red flag means stop.

Don't participate in this. Yeah, think flag is to we have some questions if you are a microstrip gy holder. My best advice to you, if I was a family members said, hey, I put one hundred thousand into this. I double my money.

My best advice to a family member, and this is not financial advice for anybody else, is before my brother, my mom, i'd say sell double your money l and then go by bitcoin directly if you love the coin because now you're going to get four bitcoin for everyone that you bought last month if you in fact, double germany, and it's, you know, this whole thing, not your keys, not your coins. You probably want to owit yourself, have your own coins, or maybe be in something that super trust. I have Michael seller here on this weekend, start up.

Happy to have them on. He can explain IT. It's not personal with microsoft. Just so we're clear this weekend startups is brought you by cloud depth.

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Jason Alicea is alex will helm, you know him from his tech running days, you know me as an Angel investor, and from a little podcast called all in. This is the podcast that started at all. This is where chem, often sax, used to hang out for all in this week and started ups.

S, what are we doing this week and started up well. F, fourteen years ago, I started as a show where I would even know you founder, and then IT was two founders a week, and then mean, got up to six days a week and and took over my life. spin.

great. I got to alex here. Now we will go in three days a week, monday, wednesday, friday at noon, texas, time, one.

P, M, S, coast. We're going to talk whatever the main character is at the moment in time. Maybe that's Michael cellar right now.

Maybe it's trump some weeks or J. D. Vance of politicians. Sometimes it's still on, sometimes it's soon.

Do we talk about whether the main character is we talk about start ups and we talk about all of the technology friends. We have a big docket today. Let's talk to our first guest and just get started.

We going to talk about microstrip gy after our first guest. Okay, let's get started. Alex, whose are first guests on the sweet and turn.

So very happy report that I have source yet another alex for the show. In this cases, alex handle, he is from the wave team. W A Y Z E, most interesting companies, I think, in the realm of autonomous driving, slightly more under the radar here in the states than modem check.

About way quite a lot. Yes, people might recall that wave raised one points is zero, five billion dollars ies see back and make LED by soft bank. And then later on, uber industry in the company has an extinction of that series.

So they're backed by a soft banking video, microsoft and of course, Jason's favor company in the world, uber. So just to have them on the part two thousand five hundred, and they have a very unique approach to autonomous driving. So welcomed to the show.

Alice two point o hey guys, hi j, hi alex.

So tell us about your approach to autonation. We talk about a not here on the program, the autonomy and game. We all know autonomy handwork, but there is a final series of bosses, the final boss, seeing regulators and safety, maybe open roads.

You tell me what you can see are the final bosses, but where is wave in terms of its contemporaries and letters? Pick two contemporaries that people talk about the most way more, doing hundred fifty thousand rides in real for cities. And of course, tesla, which has the largest number of F, S, D vehicles, but they are supervised F, S D at the moment. What is wave fit between those two, uh, competitors or industry?

As I love that the final boss level, it's it's gotta be A I I in self driving is an ai. I think that's fundamentally the bit we made seven years ago at wave. It's not the perception is not the infrastructure, but it's it's the decision making and complex multiple environments being able to predict how others are gna behave and and more importantly, generalized the situations you've never see before.

You're never going to see the same thing twice on the road and is so much diversity of of weather, of different behaviors, of different situations 可能 encounter。 So the key thing you have realized this is an I R problem. Um I you sort tones in the show about large language models, but I think there's just the tip of the iceberg with A I really into the physical world and what we call and build A I I this is what's going to enable self driving to to really scale getting us off the the drug of lighter of high definition tion maps.

So we've built a wave is is one into a neural network a single way I model capable of driving, uh, in a very generalized sense in different countries, different vehicle types, including on on roses never been to before, uh, all with a camera first, such solution with a just equivalent of a single GPU. And the really exciting thing is that um mini consumer vehicles are being produce today, have that equipment on their vehicles. And so we think this the opportunity to bring this technology to to mass market and and do so through through into a machine .

learning out briefly is that uh G P U they imagine its on cars. Is that does that run the whole neil network locally? Or there a ice component to the computation required that you're talking about?

No, everything is running on board the vehicle. Uh, so a single a couple hundred tops to pu.

Well, so there was a paradise shift at some point where we went from writing lines of and trying to process the world in real time and say, is there a stop sign? Is there a pedestrian? What is happening in the real world? And if this, then that hard coding of the world. And then these neural networks came out and we just said, hey, here's a bunch of videos of human driving correctly do what they did on the streets of london, particularly chaotic place um with streets that were designed you know hundreds and hundreds of years ago as supposed to say, a great system in arizona where I was just blocked in place um you know in the last fifty years or so there may be in the fifties, maybe seventy years ago. So maybe you just explain, did you start in the hard coding era and then move to the language model era um or have you always been in the sort .

of new paradise would be on on to approach sce? Know my days of for search of the university cambridge and starting the company with we've been all in and I know I know I think gathered a Normal market attraction recently. Uh, but seven years ago we thought that this was a really control and idea.

Everyone and I was a telling me like this, we need to work. This is safe. But what we've seen is just the most remarkable outcomes. I give you a couple of uh, anodos. The first one is we can now train these systems to not just understand how to drive a car with sort of A A vision action model, but we can actually also ground them a language. So these models can not only drive and understand the water, but also engage in language, explain their actions, what even take instructions of feedback through natural language.

Could I tell a car then, alex, like, could I say, hey, you know, you are going a little bit too fast for my taste, slow IT down, and I could digest that. And then how that impact how actually drives yeah.

you know, we put an example on a website of one of our cars overtaking a double a london over, take bus, bus over a bus back into the line afterwards. IT IT gives you, I think, a much more of a show you like experience rather than simply an invisible railway track.

uh, driving experience. So when we look at this model, there was a big bet made by tesla and iran that was along the lines of we don't need lighter human eyes are taking input in and they've been driving for a hundred years. These cameras have higher fidelity.

There's more of them and their looking in three hundred sixty degrees. So therefore, hammers alone should be able to solve this problem, or knock at in need lighter. Wao said that we want as much sensor as possible.

We want as much maps as possible. IT sounds like you sit on the non light our group. Maybe you could make the argument for and against lighter as people in the industry see IT and where .

you think this will eventually win. D A. No, I think ultimately term a solution already, right information to make decisions, but bringing in a redundant sancy modality can be a pragmatic way to to get a system to market sooner. I think the key thing that you need to use senses that are have a good supply chain, uh cost effective uh and give you surround redant vision to be to an l three or an l four solution to market.

But because today that have been produced by major have surround camera, surround radar and a single four facing light, not about the robot taxi driving in beijing or savana go, but mass market, you know high volume vehicles, uh, maybe not mass market, but at least the luxury end of of consumer vehicles are coming out kind of senses. So of course, there are a great platform to bring to autonomy. They're still a far cry from some of the robot taxes that uc and sense that kind of is a great place to get a camera. Only solutions we ve got to provide very intelligent level of of of driving, of of autonomous driving as well.

I have many of you have on the road right now and how long and have you been taking ride or doing .

rights we have been developing with that fate in london for ah the past seven years. We recently just. Spend to the U. S. And are keeping I offer for what's coming mixed.

The really cool thing was, as out a couple of weeks ago, we had made me a couple of weeks of experience driving in the U. S. In the U.

K. We have cost highway and driving, but in the U. K, we don't do things for way stop signs. There's no ability to turn right at the realism. Of course, we drive on the the lift side of the road.

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And what was so cool to see is, after a couple of weeks of driving, experienced in the south of 3Francesco bay， I came out, we took the car up the sances o never been there before. Ah, there is no H D map. No prior training from san Frances going. We turn the system on.

And what was amazing as as we saw a drive, uh, effortless with the urban driving experience of london, the american culture of south o we saw our car to right to and read go for four stop science and of course drive on the right side of the road. I mean, this is an amazing example of generalization because it's showing the A I take different uh h concepts and apply them in new ways to send us IT hasn't been to before. I think this is the thing that unlock bringing autonomy to the world.

okay. So unless just be rude here, the way you described the system that you've built sounds awesome. IT IT is generally applicable to environment that that is learned from before you can take your other places.

doni. H. D. Map sensor, eagle stic has wao been really, really aggressively barking up the wrong three, because i've been born away with this ability to export paid rides across the U.

S. outs. And but IT sounds like you're going to surpass them. So are they just making mistakes?

I mean, I think there's a lot to respect for, uh, the experience that way most put together every time I right and it's IT is a remarkable product experience to be out to go drivels. I think what I paint the picture is as a different approach that has an opportunity to bring this technology scale, which is getting this deployed through driver assistance, the springs as you can get global scale um integration into into vehicles.

And as I mention, these vehicles have the right equipment on them today to be able to run this level autonomy. And I know this is a scale of millions of vehicles around the world and this is three driver system that could be a hands off ison solution or hands of eyes of l two or l per. I think this is going to get to scale faster, but more importantly um bring more diverse that should enable an A I solution to be I would actually get to an out for um the future that that you know I think we be talking about the time, the key thing that is what is going to bring this to a safe, an economically viable solution. And I really I really chAllenge autonomic strategies on isn't going to economically viable.

And I think this path, uh let's talk about economic viability. The cars by o are one hundred fifty K, A hundred k people are claiming that the approximate cost range of sure, you have some competitive intelligence. Is that in that same ballpark in your estimation .

or your imation I hold inside the cost of zero because we just work .

with the apartment is already in?

Yeah oh, oh, you speculate on that one, but I I I think you're the right. You guess one .

hundred hundred fifty eight is what people say most often. So you think that's probably actually given what you know about sensors and the cost of the car itself. A jg war.

I think for a robot taxi is built on lighter with a tuna bombo computer, I bet might be a reasonable, a reasonable assumption, particularly when you're at low volume, thousands, no, listen, thousand vehicles.

And so they are the leader. Most number of rides, but a high cost. You on claims he is going to make these cars for thirty eight, that seems reasonable. Just that seems reasonable to that. These cars could be made for thirty A H evenement 吃， being next .

couple of years. So I think we are in is every single vehicle, if if you're producing a vehicle that's not capable of hand off eyes off driving, point to point where you can, uh, you know, jump in your car, put IT, ask IT, we tell you where you want to go and maybe give her the style or the type of driving you like IT to do, and then just sit back read a book. Now initially, maybe there are a few scenario where polls over and asked you to take IT ford through an intersection or something like that, but over time these data driven system should just get Better Better until um reliably doing all of the drive.

So a thirty thousand dollar car should have IT in the next two three years or the the more expensive cars already have IT the sensor packages and computer.

That's right. They need the I A I, but they have the hardware. And I think that's going to go a mass market because really you're talking about a you know two thousand dollar live materials. It's a couple hundred tops computer that might be five hundred dollars surround camera surround right down, maybe a redundant computer redant computer that that package that's here to all .

these different car makers who are struggling to get this technology in and trying to figure out what their future is? Or is your model to go head to head with robot taxi from tesla and head to head with way more and just compete directly? Or do you see yourself as a provider of cars that have been adopted, that have the technology in them and then provide those to with the uber left door dash networks? What is your strategy? Yeah.

we want to build the most most intelligent, safe and and and trusted A I model. And I think to do that you're gonna need scale. Um so we want to work with the leading fleets and manufacturer around the world.

I guess imagine uh different manufacturer. We have different since of configurations, different computer. The nice thing about the foundation model that we building is we can to sell IT down into different variations. Flexible in that manner.

But i'd i'd love to to see A I power l 2l five driving。 So whether it's driver assistance or some safety features through to hands off, eyes off, driving through, uh, growing up to drive as well um with the commercial consumer vehicles. Uh, I the model that we want to run is seeing A I deployed in a diverse uh applications as possible. So you use you see .

yourself in partnership car manufacturer and you see yourself in partnership with fleet and uh taxi services like uber in the correct yeah we've integrated .

into cars and to vans with, uh of course to uh we drive every day. We ve also on some some grocery delivery trials. Uh, I think the more diverse days you get is just going to make the A I safer. Uh, and the key thing is this A I needs to be adaptable to the different, different platforms that are the manufacturer fleets to build.

When can I experience IT? When will you be out in A A testy that I can access here in the states, or will I show up first, like the toyota bc, when I can cook a burden? This as ad wave, you know A V two point of self driving technology to this .

order that we the first uh time i'm looking experience the product is, as you say, just part of a consumer vehicle. You can buy, give a shot, we can go for right in the back area, come to london, we can go for a drive as as the time mines when the takes market. I I I mean you know how much the self driving industries has been hard.

I want to be quite careful, not public making a claim like that. But it's it's coming soon. You know that the hard was there. We've got the um um a clear opportunity regulations coming together. We're working hard as we can to get this A R shift.

The how do you see the market, the chess board playing out? Do you think it's going to be a uber and yourself and lift versus tesla? You think tesla is going to provide this to other manufacturer?

Do think you know uh, other manufacturer like say a toyoy something will want to run their robot fleets. I mean, this seems like a game of drones right now. In terms of the different approaches to winning.

Uber itself has, I think, nine or ten autonomy partners and they put money into your company. So obviously, they believe they're going to be the aggregator and the work with many partners. I think tesla is made to clear that they're not going to work with the aggregators and they want to be the aggregator and provide this. So if we're sitting here in five or ten years, what are some likely scenarios for consumers?

Yeah I I love this this game forty s and such a privilege after pretty long, deep take unit to to get to wear we up. But I think a lot of analogies you you can turn on like, look, you can you can think about at the columnist at the language into space. You can think about my friends and android.

Um I think in in in general, uh, what I point out to is a couple of things. The first is it's really important. I think you work on the hardest thing first. Otherwise, when IT comes to scaling this kind of technology, you're at risk of adding some, some glass ceilings. And secondly is when IT comes to adopting automation or robotics, I think time and time again we've learn is that if you require large infrastructure change or uh, support, it's going to be much harder to roll out these systems compared to if that they works seamlessly with how society works in an existing way.

Founders, do you want to sell to bigger customers? I know you do. You got to get that A C V.

Trending up and you want to push your turn down, right? Sounds good. But to sell to those big buyers, you need to clear all of these compliance checks.

You know that that means you gotta a have names like sock to sort IT out what's sock to. It's a standard and ensures that companies keep their customer data safe. And if you aren't sock to comply in, you can kiss those big deals goodbye.

You're not going to lan lights customer. You're not going to be able to Operate at the highest end of the market. But vantage makes IT really easy for you to get and renew your sock to compliance. On average, venture customers or compliance in just two to four a week can take months without, and the automate compliance for gdpr hipper and more so you can sell to bear customers in whatever mark up your start up is going after ventas gona save you hundreds of hours of work and after eighty five percent of compliance class, stop slowing yourselves. Team down and use venta get a thousand dollars off adventure 点 comes like if I comes as quest for one thousand dollars off your .

sock too so I I fundamentally think believe that autonomy of scale is going to be driven by a system that trust IT that can can drive in busy over an environment and merge with traffic， interact and all of that kind of intelligent behavior that will come from an A I system. And then, of course, work with the kind of hardware requirements and lack of an H D. Map that we've been talking about.

So i'm bullish on the approach that was great to see is the move that way in the last couple of years. Uh, I think there's a lot of space run. What we want to do is enable a if you think about the ninety million vehicles that are produced each year, uh, the years that might be producing A A couple of million of those, uh, the rest we would love to enable those.

I think, is the number year. So there are about two percent of the market, maybe more. Yeah, exactly.

What about ninety eight percent? Uh, I mean, unfortunate. Looks like we gonna see more segregation between china and the U. S. China and the ways they say. But for all of those we produce in the west, we would love to to let those, uh, fleets and manufacturers gain access to the incredible benefits.

Autonation charged the consumer of fifty forty nine dollars a month for IT. Or it'll be abstract into the course cost of the vehicle. How how do you see your business eventually with these as an O E M, I guess, to these car producers? How do you see your business evolving? What's the model which you give them a global essence and say, hey, up to a million vehicles can have this board, ten million year, give us ten dollars per hick produced per mom.

How do you see your business of all as with with anything? I mean, I can I can you give a vision, say, but this is going to vote as we get going. I think ultimately, robotics is a uh, an exchange of value of time.

So I think long term, a subscription of an autonomy service that gives you time back or freeze up time as as where we should land and symptom the parties in the right way to improve the system over time. But what we are saying about are getting things in without causing disruption. Right now, people are used to in the order order of space buying with an up front, uh, a peace Price of fee. And so I think, uh, you know that may maybe where the industry starts, particularly l two, go when you get l 3， a true exchange of value for time yeah, I think that's where we will land some kind of success model to consumer and the oby shared between the the fleet of the manufacturer and and of course, ourselves, providing the are that makes IT possible.

I'd pay so much for that. I would pay Jason five hundred box month for a driving car. I think just six thousand a .

year plus the cost of your car plus insurance, but your insurance might go down to a fraction of what IT is if IT is running this kind of software. I mean, if you could recapture and actually do your email or actually do a pod gas from and .

we can record .

this from the from the road, and you think about that amount of time, sure. And you might pay five bucks an hour for IT. And if you were to drive ten hours a week using fd, that's two hundred dollars a month, which I think is kind of where you are round up on.

Tester is nineteen nine dollars a month or forty nine dollars a month. I can't remember. I pi just buy for ten gram. When I buy a new vehicle, they could a gram.

but I think they're been scription than by a some significant as nineteen million cars produced. Teacher, yes, scale really matters here, not just producing autonomy for an aflush area like the bar area, but getting to scale, getting this out everywhere as an enormous opportunity and not argue there's just the tip of the iceberg with a body dye. When you start to think about what's possible technical beyond order motive to other kinds of robotics, uh, this is, this is going to be an enormous market.

right? Listen, this is incredible. Congratulations on your early success.

Uh, it's great that we have this capitalistic environment, alex, where you alert in a dog fight to save human lives and to recapture all this wasted and create a surplus. Rely for everybody. So we wish you great success on this.

And great competition are ultimately benefits the consumers and society. So you know I really excited that you're in the fight and um excited to see if I order a core vat if I can order wave in IT really am covering this new C A core vat. Alex, I am I A functional? I made functional idiot when he comes to driving now because i've been music by tesla F S D.

Since they inception. IT IT IT was called pilot. And the idea of trying to stay exactly in the road or doing the to, uh, adaptive cruise control is just so much Better and so perfect.

Now I get car sick if i'm driving, and other people, the car gna get car sick. When you compare IT to have smooth, you know, these these systems are they're getting really smooth. They do seem to be generally, though, on certain interactions like a traffic circle, a left turn, they seem to gender a little bit too much Better. Decisive enough as we rap our as a solution to that lack of decisive veness we see in this in this system.

Yeah, you know how I mention working on the hardest first, I mean, start in london and force us to tackle that immediately because you leave us around lots emerging salary. Ja, where? And if you're jerky, it's gonna a very, very uncomfortable ride. I mean, the the key solution is this just going to A A self supervised large scale system that can learn emersion behavior that I, if you think about, you have to encode all of those factors that require you to behave uh of things that my captain risks and other factors. It's it's just onna cause frequent slowing down, emergency stopping is letting the system watch those kind of dynamic scenes and learn emerging behavior that aca pulls out and nudges into traffic, pushes IT away through crowds and also um curious ously lets others uh come on in front of us where appropriate. Ah that kind of stuff you see everywhere .

in london have you I mean, let's face IT. When humans drive, they cut corners and they break rules consistently. We all know that. We all know that people roll through stop signs. We all know people, you know, yellow means go a little faster when IT, in fact, stop.

So how do you baLance what the training data gone to learn from humans, which is a two on the margins, break the rules or to bend the rules, let's say, let's say, bend the rules versus what the loss as, which has come to a complete stop. No job to the inter section. I mean, there must be some baLance here. And I wonder if IT requires going to regulators and saying, hey, this is not how humans driving. This is not how they take a traffic circle, you know, the buy the books method.

I think it's such an important point because I if you think that on these large language models, part of a while, waste around some these safety Christs and rules, but the advantages that we have in a body day, I yes, there is a pretty clear role, sit and and I think you need to be out to separate out the safety rules and then within the what is like a safe envelope to make a driving decisions.

There is a large uh design space of the you can have that and so um what I think we are motivated to solve and self driving and where I think we'll quite possibly see a the solution to A I safety is a is a system that can provably stay within the bounds, ill's rules. But within those bounds provide a sense of collaboration and customization. A the the uh you know the passenger and occupies help probably A I to drive in a certain style.

But those rules that can be fairly well sit. And in that driving culture that was describing, it's very different from london in the U. S.

And I been able to learn how that does differ. And I drg naturally, if you don't do that, you see very do around you people. You pass off if you're not merging in the right way, accepting the right driving and culture in new york.

You don't give an inch in L A. You kind of you know shake your fist at each other and you know but you kind of let people merge on the margins. And then in taxes, people are like, no, no, you go.

No, you go. Go ahead, go ahead. It's a very interesting event in the united states.

How different IT is. The major cities are. Four major cities i've lived in are distinct ly different. And it's largely because in texas, people have guns in their cars and everybody's nice to each other because you don't want to get in a road jy instance in texas, I understand, because it's going to go to the direction of everybodys, the very polite in new york. Nobody y's got guns.

Everybody just kind of yells and screams at each other and that's as far as these interactions generally. Oh, so are we going to be in a situation where eventually the AI models drive like new yorkers or taxes going in texas? And to give you a warning, hey, maybe you need to .

be a little more .

polite kids, more everyone where you .

you drive for a couple minutes yourself, and then ask the cat drive you to o you prompt bounds, safe. Should be fully capable .

if you travel a lot. You've got to do with renting cars. It's just the fact IT can be slow, confusing and most of the time the experience is stuck in the past, IT takes an hour into car, two hours to car.

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You can manage your entire trip in kite APP, meaning you can avoid waiting around while someone else enter your data into a computer by hand, one slow key shrock at a time. It's like that scene from the movie with a slot at the dmv. Anyway, kite doesn't do across es IT Operates in large cities around the states and i've used IT in both L A in same versus when love IT.

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Yeah, it's gna be interesting to say, uh, you know I want to be zippy uh um I think you have like I think to teslas innovation, they do have a sort of more aggressive mode in their their self driving preferences where you can change lanes more often or not at all, which the whole point of self driving, I like, is not changing lanes. I like the idea of not changing lanes because changing lanes means I got ta pay more attention. I gotta be more visual. You know, I supposed to alex and alex. Alex were but you could just, you know, kind of chill more if you're in the right hand lane and just are in the middle, you're just booing at whatever five miles above the big living.

Yeah, what do you guys want to go go autonation driving when we head up bill gates over, he asked to her, go for fish and chips here in london 啊。 We could do a pocket in a.

Ca, totally. We'll do IT next time. Where there? Uh, great job.

And oh yeah, there IT. Is bill gates? Uh, test driving.

Did he investor? Is he just a, an? Has he invested yet?

no. Microsoft is A A great part of hours, but there is a fan is a he's been a great supporter of the company.

but it's fantastic to see so many players out there competing a to and great competition makes for great products the best and will check in with you in six months and hopefully you will have some cars on the road in the U. S. Available uh in the uber network or left or right delivering some great, great catch up with alex .

and will talk .

to you alex. Great to see alex, uh, how much progress we're making here like that. So dial in. So was interesting .

about that entire interview is that he reminds me of a comedian, deep gram. And they were doing neural network pico, way before the OpenAI boom. And I cocooned, I was talking to the founder.

He said, look, what we did was we just took all of language, and then we had a computer just learn how to talk or how to translate. And I was like, well, that's pretty cool. And this to me with my lack of deep technical note.

Gy, about A, I does look a similar approach and i'm very excited. I just I want someone to make this work in providence. I don't kind of the tesla or wave or ramoo. I want someone to brand to where i've live.

That's what I yeah for sure. Uh, it'll be great to have this on the road and a more options available. It's nice to see some competition in the space and it's not just way more and tesla that you'll have up sorts. And I love the idea of people providing know this technology to other platforms out like that's actually thinking to be one of the big wins is that you're gonna be able to buy a car that doesn't have this in IT. yeah.

And if there are models, uh, multiple the models pursuing this, you know you'll be able to look at their track records and compare them in the same way you when I buy a car, I think about my daughters and my wife and my dog, my ball dogs, it's going to be the safest. So i'm like model x suburban model Y, I want to see this cars for them to be in. And so I think what's onna happen as people going to start looking at the safety records? How many miles to destroy ve, how many interventions did you have? How many accident to have? How many fatalities got forbids to have? And that's that's the way i'm going to judge these.

Oh, I I dead on. And also I just think by the time that my thought is when my kids are sixteen, what will be the choice and I think by then is going to so clear as they would feel irresponsible to let them drive little on a stick shift. A comment from the and sebastian ezra's, L.

A says, interesting. No guns, for example, in holland, and everyone is polite in curdish between drivers. So there is dispute by your gun, your gun.

While I was told maybe somebody was being chicky with me, but they carta gave me the, you know, texas discussion like a people don't do home invasions. People don't get enough rage incidents because people, generally speaking, I have a fire among them. And so like the idea of going into a restaurant and robbing a restaurant in a gunpoint, this could be more guns in the restaurant then on the perps coming into rob the restaurant and no, a likelihood.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean.

it's like the OK coral basically but you you don't know IT because you you don't see them. People just have guns on them and you know I see science. It's very weird you moving to texas where the signs I would see in new york, if you have a gun, you go to jail for a year minimum, like and there's no discussion that's what they try to you know really explained to new york kers.

And then in texas, it's kind of like in our establishment, we don't allow w fireroom. Please do not bring keep in your car or every year. It's almost like they're asking you icicle, we prefer you don't .

have a firearm in this .

restaurant, please just you know like a metal and why is that sign there? Kind of makes me believe that people going to bring .

their guns in anyone liability. So you have mentioned several times in the show 了 that， uh, you had hoped that the twice harder will get filled out, but faster. We judge me a lot of different stuff. Yes, baby is in fact babies. I mean, you know the movies come to Austin, adam shows we've been doing a lot the lot of but mai and I who is on the research team and also the twin, we're going to a get to two hundred and fifty by the the year.

Oh, love IT. great. So that is our .

desire pledge to you. So we will get that all rerolling. So expect more interviews, guys, if you like.

Three hundred first to 点 com check IT out。 But yes, Jason microstrip, gy, i've been in the documents today. I ve been .

looking through, I can, I like, with our picking role. Here are two men game. I have been mixing IT up on twitter and hearing a lot of people saying this is a psy skid.

And the way they're describing mr. M S T R microstrip gies, which is run by Michael seller, who is an evs, an enthusiastic entrepreneur. This company has existed since the late nineties.

He got in a bunch of trouble with the S. C. C. previously. It's been up and down. The software business, as we ve talked about, is the minimum and declining, but the pickin business is viBrant and being invested massively if you bought shares and mr. At the peak, lest we he think with thursday, with trading at an all time high of five hundred forty dollars a year, when I woke up this morning and I just go and that he was maybe three eighty or .

three ninety or something.

that was one thirty. Okay, so three. So you've lost, I don't know if you made this tray and you've more lost one hundred and fifty dollars H A share, maybe one hundred to share something depending on when you got in.

So um you know this clearly was overheated and I am not the only one who is saying, is there something here that the markets should be concerned about? Now one of the great things about market analysis, they are self correcting. If there is an opportunity to share the company, there are a group of people who like to do that.

If there is A S metrical outcome here where people believe that you should pay two and half times four microstrip gy in the value of their big coin, because microsoft got some financial visiting at work with these convertible note slash bonds, you know, financial instruments were going to acquire more. And he is a corner of the market on bitcoin, because he now is the number one holder in bitcoin. After sato shi and above the united states government, which has been seizing biton, they are used legally, and trust says, i'll never sell them.

So there's two aspects of this that I just wanted to put on the table right now. One is, I am a long back. I been bacon. I bought a bunch under one hundred.

My, I book a bunch at one mine got hacked back in the day when you um had marketplaces for these horse did not and they have we've made a lot of money on big. So I love bitcoin. I think it's real.

The fact that governments have abandoned, uh, in the fact that IT hasn't been hacked is incredible to me and I believe IT is here to step microstrip gies is now the second piece of this is people like mining's um and other folks were in the bitcoin community are very concerned at what Michael seller is doing and they think he's going to damage the bit point ecosystem and the dr a brand and the trust in bitcoin because of these um volatile in their minds uh acquisition strategy. He has but in the documents what have you discovered that of course come I don't have any beef. I don't have a horse in this race even though we own bit why're, never selling IT.

I think it's a great part of distributed um you know diverse portfolio. So we like having IT. It's not personal micros or less.

People think I have IT in for him or i'm jealous of him and happy for any entrepreneur to be successful. As is been successful myself, I just am always concerned when I see something disconnect from reality of markets. And alex is, and I put on markets as well.

And we like to talk about IT here. It's not personal. I am not blocking him from being on all in.

If the other guys won't have one all in, I am happy to have him there. It's not my decision. Yeah, it's a group decision. So anyway, there is everything you said. I know he's been asking to come on all in which seven .

in the rankings. So the pocket I just .

want to be careful also platforming somebody getting more of the audience to buy shares in something. When I think there are red flags everywhere and other people are saying red flag, red flag, red flag.

how stop there? One of the reasons why I think the stories worth coming back to today is the religious intensity of people's complaints about you asking questions about the company.

Because to me, if I was set down and said, uh, zoom, the software that we used to record the show quite often in the lovely interpret soft company, if I was red, red flags, everybody, i'm really worried about this, everyone would go like, ah well, okay, fair and off. And if you can, you can think that sure but what IT comes to anything that touches bitcoin, you end up dealing with these religious financial. And I turn to fight a comment from our live checks with less today someone was like, oh, the guy who thinks sees our expert about microstrip. Gies is not expert on real estate. And i'm like, you came into our chat to complain about Jason tweet to that degree what you do.

I mean, I know a little bit of real state, and I was on the board of blocker for many years and invest billions of dollars. And some do have slight education on manufacturing of homes and mobile homes. And I ve interviewed bunch of people on IT. I don't claim to be an expert on either bitcoin, microstrip, gy or or home construction, but I do know how to ask a good question or two.

And that's what we're here for. By the way, you should hope that people are possible asking questions about companies that report their numbers basically, because that is the immune system of the market. The market will self correct over time, but we can shorten those loops by asking a lot of questions.

So you wanted to know what are the dead terms? What is this convertible det. That this companies putting out? So I went into the documents.

These are the the three billion dollars worth of notes that are do in two thousand and twenty nine. They are convertible debt. And us are they senior? They are they are senior unsecured obligations. They do not bear any regular interest and the principal does not agree OK why the available the notes are convertible into class a common stock at a ratio of about one point five shares per one thousand dollars of principle in the notes. So that means that they will convert to, uh, six stock and about a six hundred and seventy two dollar per share rate, which is a fifty five percent premium at the time of issue.

which is almost double. Now how could stocks come down?

Stocks CS come down, yes, but you should convertible.

You can also get your money back with a little bit of interest. And IT depends on who gets to choose that sometimes. Uh, the company, we get to choose that sometimes. And this where the devils in the detail, the people losing the money would get to choose that. So that's where, and I don't know if they have to disclose that where they have disclosed to yet, but this is where I can get very interesting because the three billion dollars, those people could just say, hell, take my three billion back, plus eight percent a year.

Some interest on IT that could be buried in the documents we don't know about if IT is they're going to have a major in five years, you know, IT could be three and half billion dollars or whatever is that has to go back to those individuals in cash? Yes, cash has to come from somewhere. So either they have cash or they sell shares in the company or they show the underlying big coin. If bitcoin were to be lower, this thing could as opposed to going up to five hundred forty dollars in one hundred, almost one hundred thousand, a big coin, IT could go the other way, I think. And that's one of the problems with owning a large percent being the number two holder in bitcoin.

If they have to liquid, can have a mass surprising act. So I can answer that to some degree. So first of all, starting in uh, june first of two thousand, twenty eight holders of the that that microsoft has sold have the right to require the company to repair chase for cash all or any portion of their notes. So a year before they actually reached the maturity point, the people who only money can say, we would like our cash back. please.

Thank you. With interest or not with interest.

we purchase Prices equal to one hundred percent of the principal, plus any a crude and unpaid special interest. I tried to chase down the definition of special interest throughout .

those in the document somewhere, so they must have defined what special interested i'm going to guess special interested like plus one library or something or plus three library or .

something know because there's no underline cube on rate IT doesn't seem to be IT to the what we Normally look for her reasons. So I think basically they get their cash back and the interest is rotary diminish compared to the principal amount.

But what that means is if the people who hold this convertible debt do not think that in two thousand and twenty nine in the notes mature, that they're not going to make their money, that they were hoping to, they can get their cash back. And so that's when this feels penzias because Michael sailor is essentially saying, look, here's a call option on our our equity down the road in the form of comfortable note today. And if you were making running great, but you can also make a skip cash back.

And if they need to repay, then they might need to liquidate. Ate their bit leading to a casket if the a bitcoin value goes down because they sell IT and their show Price will go on further than all they are, convertible deck could become essentially something in cash. So I hope that some .

sense a lot of, I think, important to understand the mechanics of this. I think the sec is going to require them to share a lot of this um maybe more than theyve already shared and then consumers will become more hip to what's going on here. And I think somebody um at a higher pay grade than us, sure who works in accounting, who is a cpa, could literally build a model here.

They know how many bitcoins I have to two hundred thousand or something I think, uh maybe three hundred thousand whatever the number bitcoin is. And then there is a Price at which and I don't know what their cash reserves or because he doesn't like to keep cash as hope concept is the treasury is in bitcoin, yes. So I don't know how much cash he and then you have to predict how much cash is are going to have there.

And I think he's talking about doing this every year. So I wonder how much more of these convert is gonna? Cause I think the concept was to do a convert every year or do bigger converts and buy even more bitcoin.

So now you have the criticism i've heard of this. Yes, is he's going to have an incentive to do a bigger convertible. That convertible then is gonna buy more backing, clear out holders. People belong from holders who wanted to move large positions.

So if you wanted to move a billion dollars in bitcoin or five billion in bitcoin, like now, you got a well in the system who wants to buy IT, and they are a large portion of the buy side that would drive the Price up. Price goes up, stock goes up, ability to do another offering goes up. And maybe this can keep going for a long time.

Or with the people who are providing this convertible debt, say, you know what interesting offering we want tighter terms. We're going to need clawbacks. We're going to a two x liquidation preference.

We're going to need some more structure here. And if maybe we'll put in there. And if and if bitcoin goes down below this number, you've got a liquid and pay off twenty five percent of.

If the coin hit its this number, you got a liquidate pay off point five percent of IT. So maybe the next note, depending on how bitcoin goes, will be more structured and have more convenance as they say in the business. In other words, things that if they get trigger would cause actions to occur. I eat a default. Yes, there are a lot of defaulter's that exists.

but they seem to be mostly around, uh, changing company control, which is a party thing. For example, there are some anti lotion preferences in there. As the thing that I have not been able to understand and chase down and really get to the root of the Jason is why microstrip gy trade at a multiple to the value at underline bitcoin.

Everyone agrees the software business, and microstrip gy is pretty mood. And we all know the value of the big coins they hold. And by the way, last time they told us IT was three hundred and eighty six thousand seven hundred bit.

Chase that down for you. But why do they have this this massive premium on the net as a value of the underlying that point? And I have not found any answer.

I read your tweet, I read the responses, and people will matter you for asking why. And then just say, do your own research, which didn't help at all. So did have you found anything?

Here's something when people tell you, put in the hours, do the research. And when Michael seller says, I can explain that in three hundred characters, I have to come on the all in podcast to explain IT. Or this week, start up to explain IT.

I get a little nervous because almost all of the business is in every vesting in four hundred startups and you know been a journalist for you know over a decade cover two thousand episodes. I've been around the block uh, in terms of assessing businesses, any time is too difficult to understand in my experience. I saying, this is microscope.

When people tell me, do your own research, have on being poor, you know, it's too complex. Free to understand the last person who told me was too complex for me to understand. Was do kon he was picked up in .

mountain negro I think do kon was um the stable coin that was the alone .

ic stable was do tera he was very .

yeah .

I think he's in jail. We can link in the shower notes to his episode here. He tried to explain to me, I given two or three times to explain to me how this all worked, and he was arrested.

I'm not saying my goal still going to be arrested, but I will say is there is a pattern. Yes, if you were to ask, I don't know, add a newman to explain how we work. Was were think he said, hey, community.

Eb up. He came up with his own term, community even. yeah.

B to c yield. Ld, I think is a term that microsoft this morning. B to c yo. I didn't know that there was a yield associated with bitcoin. I don't understand what he means by that term like is .

IT it's not yield. So uh, community adJusting eva for a folk who might forgot, was the famous metric that essentially we were convened because adjust .

to evita was strict .

to make its numbers goods. B, C, yield is something that I flagged. And I said I was no in our notes on monday with arms saying WTF.

So B, T, C, yield is a term that does not reference yield. What IT does is draw a ratios far to understand between the total number of bitcoin that microsoft owns and each block of one thousand shares outstanding. And so it's essentially, uh, how many bitcoin per thousand shares of microsoft are out there. OK not yield. That's a ratio is the ratio of how big when you get per ship.

whenever people make up new terms for a revenue or expenses. Any of this stuff is gonna be a pink flag or a red flag. Pink flag is what I wave on the way to a red flag. Red flag means stop. Don't participate in this.

Think flag is to, we have some questions if you are a microstrip gy holder, my best advice to you, if I was a family members to, hey, I put one hundred thousand into this, I double my money, my best to advice to a family member. And this is not financial advice for anybody else, is before my my mom, i'd say sell IT. You doubled your money, sell IT and then go by bitcoin directly.

You love bitcoin because now you going to get four bitcoin for everyone that you bought last month. If you in fact, double germany and it's, you know, this whole thing, not your keys, not your coins, you know, you probably want to own IT yourself, have your own coins, or maybe be something that super trusted, like coin base or Robin hood. And I have been to all robot, but you know, here we are, another great episode. I'll have Michael seller here on this week and start up if the other guys wants to have a month all in, happy to have a on he can explain IT. It's not personal with Michael seller .

just so we're clear. I'd love to have on the show to be a great conversation. But just just to be clear, we couldn't figure out the root cause explanation about other than stocks go up. And that's not a good long term investing a position in my view. Just we ve got to wrap my back is what's a return from six plan, I think or monday.

monday, monday, monday on monday and.