Rashford, Kolo Muani, Williams: Ornstein's transfers to watch
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Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast. I'm Ian Irving and the January transfer window is now officially open. Coming up on the pod, we'll take you inside the market to explain the deals being worked on. We have David Ornstein's one to watch, Colomwani, plus ongoing interest from Arsenal and Chelsea in Nico Williams. And fresh news as well from David of a possible loan move for out of favour Manchester United forward Marcus Rashford.

Right, with us today then, we have Mr Ornstein, the Athletics Football Correspondent and the lead writer for the Athletic FC newsletter, Phil Hay. Gentlemen, welcome. David, first of all, your first deal sheet of 2025 is out. We'll get into the details of that. I've teased some of them already. But last January, really quiet, just £112 million spent across the Premier League. Are you expecting similar this time or different?

I think more will be spent because of the need of a club like Manchester City and they've got finances at their disposal. We've already seen Tottenham commit spending on a goalkeeper and my expectation is the tally will rise. It doesn't mean it's a more preferential market to shop in than a year previously. All the clubs still prefer the summer but as the years go by the stakes become ever higher and you know whether it's

Emergency solutions, reacting to injuries, scrambling to get into European places, push for trophies becomes a sort of desperation. And often there's market opportunities as well that arise for whatever reasons. And so, yeah, I mean, it was particularly quiet. It is always quieter than the summer, but that doesn't mean there's fewer conversations going on. You know, I seem to be busier than ever this time of the year, and that's because

things are being explored and now they don't always turn out to be big money permanent deals. There's often a lot of loans, people discuss potential swaps but I do get the sense that this is livelier than previous Januaries and for us I guess that's a good thing. Yeah it's a bit more like it definitely. I mean Phil looking back on last January why do you think it was so quiet?

A few reasons. I mean, David touched on one of them there, which is that as a rule and as time goes on, clubs prefer to be less and less active or completely inactive in January if they can organise things that way. The best clubs are the most organised, the most strategic clubs like to get the ducks in a row in the summer. And January has become a little bit of a window for the desperate. We like the scramblers. Yeah, well, we do. And I always worry about Ornstein going out of business. So the more transfers, the better. Yeah.

But you do, I mean, down in the Championship, for example, you get top-up deals. So, for example, Sheffield United going after Ben Brereton-Diaz is one of those ones where your squad's nicely placed, but you're thinking this could just tip us over the line. And that does go on quite a lot in that division at the top end. But certainly in the Premier League,

It is a bit of a kind of desperation moment, isn't it? Where most of the deals tend to revolve around sides who need something here and now. I know, I think it was 2018 that City did Laporte from Athletic Bilbao, but he was a player that they'd been looking at for a long time and the time was right to get it done. It wasn't a case of we need this player right now. If you think back to a year ago, and it seems like quite a long time ago, but the issue of profit and sustainability was very, very live in 2024. And

It's been on the scene for a long time, but the last 12 to 18 months are the first time where it's really felt like there was some jeopardy there and as if the PSR system actually had some teeth and was going to take a chunk out of clubs who breached the limits. So there was a bit of fear to a certain extent. I think as well, the Saudi market over time has started to cool down.

from that first real splurge where it seemed like money was no object. So yeah, it was still a bit of an outlier in terms of the amount spent. And I think there will be more spent in this window. But I don't think as time goes on, it's ever going to be a window in which clubs are any more active than they strictly have to be. I still have halcyon visions and also trauma of January 2011, which started in...

satisfactory style with sort of Luis Suarez moving from Ajax to Liverpool and you think, okay, that's a great deal. Nearly went to Tottenham, bit of drama. And then it finished with Andy Carroll taking a helicopter down from Newcastle to Liverpool to replace...

Fernando Torres moving from Liverpool to Chelsea on the most remarkable deadline day. And there've been others like Andre Arshavin finally moving to Arsenal in the snow beyond the deadline. I'm sure you've had a drama or two at Leeds, Phil. So yeah, I think we're pining for those days to come again and I'm not sure they will. Yeah, maybe less crazy than the deadline day in 2011. I was at Melwood, Liverpool's training ground that day and we had shirts being burned outside. We had a satellite truck that I think

some locals tried to turn over so maybe slightly calmer than that possibly but some deals hopefully and your deal sheet on the Athletic David certainly points to business being done we've mentioned Manchester City already it's rare for Premier League champions to need as much as they do in fairness in a January transfer window but it sounds like they're beginning to make their moves and begin to get their their sort of solutions in place doesn't it

Yeah, so coming into this January window, the consensus throughout the industry was that Man City will be the main player because of the situation they found themselves in with an unprecedentedly bad run of form. Even Pep told us that, hasn't he? He's confirmed it. Pep told us, which is unusually forthcoming in terms of his public comments. And you ask around and you get the impression very clearly that

Defence is an area that they want to strengthen in. One, injuries, absences, also age profile and a natural churn that will be coming in due course anyway. And that's why you see them showing an interest in the Lons central defender, Kusunov.

who is catching the eye of many. Newcastle have liked him for quite some time. Tottenham are aware of him too, but the level I think it's going to go to financially, I don't see Tottenham pursuing it right now. And that level, which Lons want, is above 40 million euros. They've put George Mendes, the so-called super agent,

in charge for this window. They've given him a mandate to get the sale done. And the more people I speak to, the growing sense is that he will end up at Manchester City, but they obviously have to go through the normal sort of dance and negotiations.

And then the other area of the field at the forefront of their mind, I think, would be the attacking department because Julian Alvarez left last summer, wasn't replaced. Erling Haaland has shouldered the goal-scoring burden pretty much on his own. And we're seeing them linked with...

with Marmouch from Eintracht Frankfurt, who's got a really prolific record and would not be too dissimilar to Alvarez in terms of profile. It's a profile that City find interesting from what I hear. They don't have it right now. And there are reports just before recording this that City are stepping that pursuit up. I'm not sure how Frankfurt will respond to that because the indications coming from Germany are that they're desperate to hold on to him. And then you find the midfield department. They want a six and or an eight position.

type position too. Now, that's not to deputise for Rodri because they hope that he'll come back. So if it's a long-term permanent signing, you need someone complementary that the squad could do with going forward. Unless you did do a stopgap, a loan, somebody that could fill in. But I don't get the

feeling that City are so keen on that especially if it's an older player because it's just not their style is it Arnie that's just not not what they do and even if they're under pressure in this window surely won't do at this point yeah I agree with you and when they look at their existing age profile you

don't want to you know you got Kevin De Bruyne in there plus 30 you've got Ilkay Gundogan in there plus 30 and the players that tend to be available on alone at this time of year are often of that age profile so if they can find somebody who's who is permanent who would fit into the sort of direction they're going in anyway then maybe they're

they would find a complementary option to bring in. So yeah, Man City, I mean, nothing done yet on any of those fronts. So we'll have to wait and see how it pans out. But we've seen with their recent financial results that they're in a very healthy position to be able to do business now. And then that could have a trickle-down effect, Ian, for the rest of the market because money starts to move around more

but not just the money ramification, but also the reaction of others, rivals. If City start investing and spending and strengthening, do we need to do the same? Because we've got this rare opportunity to be ahead of them in the Premier League or Champions League table, for instance, and do we need to kick on ourselves? And so that makes it quite an interesting market. Yeah, there's other clubs at the top of the Premier League, ahead of

Manchester City, below Manchester City, who will be looking to do business. And Phil, this is the great thing in a way for people who are excited about transfers, is that when you've got a club, the stature of City with the spending power of City being as active as this, it can really ignite things, can't it? Yeah, it can. And it's unusual to be in this position. I think with, you know, obviously reigning Premier League champions and

I think would have been Champions League winners last season had they not got edged out in that tie against Real Madrid. That's how good they were. So unusual to see a club like that needing this kind of rebuild or this amount of surgery. But also with City specifically, they don't often get caught out like this or haven't done in this era, certainly the Guardiola period.

and it feels like plenty to be done with them. But as I was saying to David, I still think they'll be fairly level-headed about what they do. And I still get the feeling that they would almost feel it was better to do nothing or to do nothing significant than it would be to bring in, you know, to make an error, I suppose, a little bit like Calvin Phillips from Leeds a few years back, where they spent, you know,

the thick end of 50 million and it's come to nothing. I mean, the interesting link I thought with City was Edison at Atalanta, who again, another name in the deal sheet, would look like a good fit to me, although seems implausible at the moment. I mean, Serie A is wide open, Atalanta right in the middle of the title race and that doesn't seem doable for realistic money.

But seeing his name, I sort of thought, yeah, that is somebody that I could see Guardiola taking. Just quickly on Mamouch, David, do you think clubs ideally would want a bigger sample size with him? Because he's mid-20s, he's on the back of his first really hot season, I would say. And it went very well for him at Eintracht. But it's not as if there's a long track record there of having been, you know, prolific top level European striker. Do you think there's a little bit of weariness about him?

Yeah, I think so. And I've spoken to a number of recruitment personnel at different clubs and around the game who have reservations on him. They don't think he's the required level for Manchester City. But it's a game of opinions and City are...

going to have some of the cleverest minds in the market looking at situations like this and crunching the numbers and doing the assessment by eye as well. And, you know, he's got an unconventional path as well. So the way he came through from Egypt and into Germany and, you know, I was reading a piece that was talking about how he spoke not a word of German when he came over and he would be at like a food stand when somebody else was ordering food.

And he would pick up language from hearing other people ordering food. It beats watching English soap operas to learn English, which we used to get up here in the north a lot when new players would join from abroad. Yeah, it's like Schmeichel, Peter Schmeichel with the Mancunian accent. I always loved that one.

And so, yeah, of course it's not, I mean, it's not an ideal time for Manchester City or any club to be going for a striker like this, Phil. So, yeah, you would wait for longer, but they're not in an ideal situation in their league campaign. And the bare facts are that it has been a prolific campaign. So maybe you catch them early. Conversely, there are some clubs who are looking at somebody like Evan Ferguson. They really liked him when he was banging them in for Brighton and were interested in signing him. And

very clearly made out to them that the price was like £100 million plus. Suddenly he has an injury, it's a bit of a barren spell in terms of goals and no one's really talking about him being in that price bracket or on the market. Well, many of those people that I spoke to said, no, no, this is the time to get them because we still believe he's got that potential, that bar, it's still early in his career and

and sign him at a lower price, and we can bring him back there. I think the problem with Marmouch in what you're saying, Phil, is that he's not going to come at a cheap rate. You have to pay a pretty penny for him. And some of these German clubs, like Eintracht Frankfurt, run well financially. They've got big ambitions in terms of the sporting side. And they will be resistant, if they really want to, to not do a deal. And that makes it less easy for even the biggest of beasts.

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OK, let's look elsewhere in the Premier League then. Your one to watch on the deal sheet this time around is probably one of the most high-profile players who could move in January, and that's PSG's Randall Colomwani. What can you tell us about his situation?

This is a fascinating one because, you know, when you've seen somebody like Colomwani, I was at the World Cup final in Doha and he started for France. He played well. It was the foot of Emi Martinez that denied him what would have probably been the match winner. And he's

Talking of Eintracht Frankfurt, previously with Marmouch, this is a player who shone there in a relatively short spell after moving over from France. And he presents a very different profile from many of the other strikers around the continent and those on the market. And he's

You don't normally see players with this capability available on loan. It just hasn't really gone well at PSG. You can see that by his performance data and his lack of game time. And so despite the fact that the deal that took him to PSG was worth sort of up to 90 million euros,

Now there's the opportunity potentially to grab him, whether it's loan with option, loan with obligation, dry loan and PSG rebuild his value and then make use of him subsequently or sell him. We'll have to wait and see.

But it would be wrong for clubs like Tottenham and Manchester United and Juventus who are looking for centre-forwards and maybe versatile attackers who can also play off to the side. Because if you've seen Kolo Mouani, he's sometimes stationed just behind the front man to the right. And...

And therefore Tottenham have sort of identified him as their top target if they are to strengthen in that position. Manchester United are looking at it as well and Juventus too. So they're the three teams at the moment of recording this that have been explained to me as being the leading contenders. That can obviously change at any moment and they will all have other options as well. But...

You get the sense because of the size of his name and the quality that he possesses that he will be one of the biggest names we talk about this month. Yeah, do you get the impression that Manchester United have the funds to do this because the manager has spoken about the issues they've got in terms of the budget at the moment, how tight the calculations could be for PSR, for Manchester United?

Well, it's really pertinent you mention Rashford because that shows there are many moving parts to all of these conversations.

So I don't think it's so strict as to we've got to sell before we buy or loan. Maybe there is a bit of manoeuvrability for a loan depending on the finances involved. Maybe you could sign somebody, and this is not just Manchester United, knowing and projecting that you're going to get somebody out later in the month, either on loan and move on their wages, or at least part of them get a loan fee in, or permanently and you get a transfer fee in.

Maybe it's going to be a homegrown player, so you make pure profit. Maybe it's not going to be a homegrown player, so you make lesser profit. Like, plates are spinning at all of these clubs. So it's not so binary and black and white that you can just say, you've got to get players out and then you can bring players in. The way it's been explained to me is that Manchester United are going to be okay on PSR this month. It's not like the walls are collapsing on their financial situation. It's not great. Clearly, they've got work to do. But I do...

think there is a bit of scope to do something. And then conversations are taking place. There are decisions that need to be made. We hear so much about a left-back. We, you know, hear them seem linked with backup goalkeepers, competition for Onana. What about a number six? And so there's a lot going on in that sphere. And, you know, I mentioned on television over the weekend that very few players are untouchable in all of this because Manchester United have to, given their financial situation, you know,

think up creative solutions. So somebody like Kobi Mainu is out of contract in 2027. There's been no news on a new deal yet or movement to that effect. And so if opportunities come their way for someone like him or a Garnaccio, for a Rashford, etc., of course, you've got to contemplate it. Now, the

Players like a Rashford and a Casemiro, who I think Manchester United would like to move on, are very different from a Garnaccio and a Mainu, who they are not actively trying to get rid of by any means. Do you think there were consider bids for Kobi Mainu? Because that would be...

quite something I just don't think that they're going to be sort of closing the door and saying that pretty much anybody is off the table apart from say you know Amad Diallo because they're about to sign him to a new contract by the sounds of it and he's really showing his worth and Lenny Oro he's just come in fantastic central defender he's going to be one of the best in Europe if he's not already and he was coveted by Real Madrid but

But beyond that, I don't want people to take this as, you know, they're looking to sell Kobi Mainu and Alejandro Ganacho. That's different, isn't it? Yeah, it is different. They are not. And I'm not aware of anything brewing to that effect. But it would be, unfortunately, for United fans listening to this, it's kind of,

remiss of those who are having to make these decisions not to consider all options to help this rebuild under Ruben Amorim that might take some tough calls and some very unpopular ones to get the players in and the finances right to get to where they want to go. And yeah, back to your point on

On Rashford, we've reported that Borussia Dortmund are among the clubs considering making a move to sign him on loan. It includes the likes of AC Milan, of Juventus. We talked about their desire to bolster an attack already. And there are some suitors in the Premier League as well. They're looking into this. They're weighing up whether they should take this interest in obviously a top talent, despite what's happening at the moment, further. And

Who knows if it will happen? There are huge finances involved. He's under contract until 2028. He earns in excess of £325,000 a week. And that's before you even mention what is clearly a breakdown of sorts at Manchester United. And he's out of favour and why, and they'll be looking into the reasons for that. But Dortmund have experience of working with Man United. A year ago, exactly, they did the deal for Jadon Sancho on loan and it seemed to work okay for all parties.

No two situations are identical, but there is a lot that can be done in a relatively short space of time. And so we have to pay close attention to Old Trafford. Phil, in your opinion, how difficult do you think it is for Manchester United to do a deal with

for Marcus Rashford whether on loan or permanent given all the things that Dave has just talked about given the fact that he's been in one matchday squad across the last month or so for United I mean his situation the wage consideration as well how do you see it?

My assumption would be that a permanent transfer in this window is completely out of the question. I just don't see how that would work financially. You would assume that a fairly major compromise would have to be made on the part of Manchester United or Rashford himself or both.

And Rashford isn't really under any pressure to make any compromise, aside from the fact that he needs to play more. He has a contract. He's entitled to what he's supposed to be earning from it. A loan deal has to be more likely or at least more doable. But even that, I think, will require some leniency on United's part when it comes to how much they ask in wage recovery for anybody who wants to sign him.

I mean, I even wonder come the summer how easy it's going to be to move him on. I think there'll be more of a market for him then, but it doesn't strike me as an easy deal to get out of or a simple process to move Rashford on because of the figures involved. What I do imagine will be happening in the background is that if Amarim feels that Rashford is not for him and needs to go...

I think there will be pressure being exerted, even if it's just gently to say, look, this does have to be resolved the first opportunity. And I think what's really interesting about Colomboani is that it will be the first, it would be if they sign him from PSG, the first signing on Amarim's watch is

And on that basis, you would assume somebody that he is, you know, specifically giving the green light to or somebody who he's specifically recommended. I know clubs don't tend to deal these days on the basis of what a head coach says or exclusively what a head coach wants. But if they're moving towards the Amarim model of play, then there must be some serious input from him into this one. And I have to say, you know, to go back to the versatility of him.

The ability to play up front would help with taking the pressure off Hoyland. The ability to play in slightly wider areas, looking so far at what we've seen from Amarant's team, you can totally see why that would be a pretty good signing for them.

Yes, certainly. In his first press conference, Ruben Amarin stopped short of saying that he had the final say on transfers at Manchester United, but he certainly said that from that moment forward he would have a very, very important say on who they signed and it would be completely remiss of the club to go after anyone who didn't fit in the very specific system, obviously, that he wants to play now. Another one of the players with a bit of a question mark over them at Old Trafford, David, is Joshua Xerxe.

has been linked with moves away given how difficult his start to life at Manchester United has been given how difficult of course that moment was for him when he was taken off against Newcastle as well but the suggestion today seems to be that he's happy to stay Yeah we understand that

At the time of reporting, Xerxe wants to remain at Old Trafford and the word coming from around him is that he's staying. He's not going to be leaving this month. Now, you never know how these things develop. We've been in many of those situations before where that word starts to get to you and then things alter automatically.

There seems to be some interest from Juventus. We've mentioned them a lot on this podcast. What a player in the market. We're clear on that, yeah. And then I've heard of teams in the Premier League that would like to take him as well. So he's not going to be short of options if he was to go. It's definitely been an underwhelming start. I don't think...

the powers that be at Old Trafford understandably have been entirely happy with how it's gone so far. But that's not to say it won't pick up for him if he does stay. And that's why I talked about the spinning of plates and the moving parts, because if suddenly something becomes plausible that United want to do and somebody needs to make way and the situation suits like a Xerxe or somebody else...

then plans and intentions get ripped up and it could materialise. But yeah, we can only say what we're being told right now and that's that Xerxe wants to get things right for Manchester United and we know there's a player in there and nothing I'm sure would do United greater pleasure than see him providing a return on the investment.

Okay, Nicole Williams, another name in the deal sheet today. The suggestion is that Arsenal and Chelsea are among the interested clubs in him. How do you see his situation this month?

He's been one who loads of clubs have been keen to sign for multiple windows. He's only 22. It's like we've been talking about him for a decade. And the closest he came was actually to joining Barcelona. I think that was last summer. All of these clubs wanted him then. The likes of Arsenal, Mikel Arteta is a massive fan of his. Chelsea, I think Tottenham were credited with interest. Liverpool looked into it. I don't think they...

took it any further and I'm not aware of them doing so in the future but some of that interest maintains and you know Arsenal Arteta Arteta would love to do it this window January but I would love a Ferrari and various other things in life you've got a Ferrari Holstein come on

A toy one, yeah. I drive around my kids' little electric-powered ones. No, I don't even have that, to be honest. And the finances, in the case of a footballer too, are very complicated. And so, you know, Arsenal, when you look at the package, it's just shy of €60 million at the moment, the release clause. It's active now in his Athletic Bilbao contract.

Why I make a point of saying now is because it fluctuates with inflation. It can go up and down and it's just shy of 60 million euros from what I hear. You have to pay it in full, which is a problem with PSR and cash flow. Also, he's on a really high salary as it is. Fair play because he's a fantastic talent and Spain international, as England fans remember to their detriment. Moving on.

you would have to raise that salary as well if you were to bring him here. Furthermore, he's not agitating to move now. And I think the summer, again, may be a time for him to move, but maybe he doesn't even go then. Chelsea maintain their interests like Arteta and Arsenal.

And there'll be others too, but I don't think that is one that we're going to see develop in this winter market. Just on Arsenal, Phil, how important do you think it is this month to get some attacking reinforcements for Mikel Arteta, given the injury to Bakayo Saka and how important he's been to everything they've done under Arteta in recent times?

Yeah, Saka's the one. And I think it would definitely, definitely help them. But I would say that Arteta falls into the category of coaches who won't just take whoever and absolutely won't be told who to sign either. I think like a lot of them, he's very, very specific about who he wants, who he needs and who fits into his system. From reading the deal sheet this morning about Nico Williams, my takeaway from it, from what David had written was that

essentially Arsenal don't have the finance to go as far as they would need to in this window with Williams and Athletic Bilbao, which is no slight on them and not to say that they're skint or anything like it, but there will be PSL considerations as there are across the Premier League at the moment and that would be a big surprise if it was to happen. David might correct me here, but my gut feeling is that Arsenal will be pretty quiet this month, even if they want to be active. I can't really see who's out there that they're going to be able to do that would

suit Arteta and who he would particularly want and I get the feeling that the second half of the season will crack on with the squad pretty much as it is. Yeah, it's a really good point, Phil. I do think the interest in somebody like Williams shows they would like to do something and let's see if an opportunity presents itself in that or another position that we might not even know about right now in terms of somebody becomes available, there's a loan opportunity, there's a permanent deal brought forward from the summer. I think that's

Often these things are instigated by somebody leaving and that doesn't appear to be on the agenda. So I think by and large that they are going to go with what they've got, which again will not be music to the ears of many fans who are baying for signings as Arsenal look to compete for a trophy that many feel Arteta needs to deliver. You know,

or face some pressure. Personally, I think he's done a fantastic job at Arsenal and got them competitive again. And let's see how the rest of this season goes. What Arsenal, like many clubs, will be doing is looking for young players for the future, some of the best in Europe. We've seen Tottenham doing it with the likes of Archie Gray and Bergvall. Arsenal doing it too when you...

I speak to people across the game that, I don't know if I get this pronunciation right, but Nipan, who is playing for Rosenberg, he's coming through central midfielder, very highly thought of and Arsenal really like him, but I'm sure others do as well. I don't know of any movement or a developing transfer, but it just goes to show that you could see an Arsenal bring in some young players now that start to bed in for the future. And it's,

It's not necessarily what everyone is going crazy about because these big names dominate the market, but it is often sensible and it's within financial parameters that allow you to hopefully compete with your rivals going forward. So, yeah, I don't expect Arsenal to be one of the most active participants in this market, but...

the way this industry works Arsenal always seem to be a topic of conversation in transfer windows and so so yeah I guess don't switch off until the window is shut this is the Athletic FC podcast

Right, speaking of Arsenal, there is a fascinating exclusive interview on The Athletic right now with the former Arsenal and Chelsea striker Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang. It was done by our friend David, who's with us, of course. Now you can go and read it straight away. Aubameyang is now playing his football over in Saudi Arabia. So let's first hear a short clip from the player himself explaining just how Mikel Arteta managed to get him to sign that big contract back in 2020 and why it may have been a mistake. Yeah.

And at that time he convinced me, he convinced me because he said, I think you can, you can leave a legacy. And this is, I think it was the first time I heard this, this word in English. And he said to me, yeah, you can have that legacy. I think you can leave it here.

If you stay, you can be an icon like the big names in Arsenal. And from there, I said, maybe I started to change my vision. And this is why I said, OK, maybe I will stay. And then him and the fans, they convinced me. It was a big mix and they convinced me to stay. But at first, I wanted to leave at that time. And this is where it became chaotic because when you go against your heart,

Maybe this is where I did my mistake. Really revealing that, Orny, to hear Aubameyang say that he sort of went against his heart signing that deal. I mean, it's a great interview. What did you take away from your little trip over to the Middle East?

Yeah, so I flew to Bahrain, then crossed into Saudi Arabia, the city of Khobar on the east coast, where Aubameyang is plying his trade for Al-Qadzia. They are owned by Aramco, one of the biggest companies in the world, the state-owned oil and gas provider. They invested in the club. They were promoted from the second tier. They've signed Aubameyang. They've signed Nacho following his transition.

departure in the midst of winning the Champions League with Real Madrid. They've got great ambitions and they're doing well. They're at the time of recording third in the Saudi Pro League behind Karim Benzema's side, behind Neymar's side and above Cristiano Ronaldo's team. Today, while we record this, they're playing in the King's Cup quarterfinals and

And Aubameyang is really enjoying his life out there. We did the interview across the bridge in Bahrain and we sat down for the best part of three hours. It was brilliant. He gave me full access. Nothing was off limits. He talked freely. There was emotion at times when he relived...

violent armed robbery that he suffered in Barcelona before moving to Chelsea in graphic detail and the impact that it had on him and his family the sleepless nights that followed even when he was at Chelsea when he then played for Marseille afterwards and he heard the alarm go off he thought they were being burgled again so part of the reason for moving to Saudi Arabia was for the safety and

And he's extremely content there, which is good to see on a human level. But of course, you get stuck into the Arsenal, the Chelsea elements to his career too. And he remembers what happened at Arsenal very vividly, not least because a lot of it's played out on the All or Nothing documentary. But there are two or more sides to every story. First thing I want to say is Aubameyang held his hands up and admitted being at fault for not...

not having the best punctuality at times. He was late for the North London Derby in March 2021, you'll remember. He says there was an accident outside his home. He could have left earlier, but these things happen and you don't necessarily know they're going to happen. The pivotal moment in this interview is when he talks about that contract renewal where

everybody in the Arsenal fan base teammates were baying for him to sign because he was the leader the standard bearer the icon of that side the top goal scorer the captain post Xhaka signed that in with the sort of slogan that was going around and

And he reveals that on the bus, on the way to the FA Cup semi-final, in COVID times this is, against Manchester City, Alexandre Lacazette, his great friend and teammate, was asking him about it. And he said, I really don't know. And what he had told his brother, and I think his father, who's very close to behind closed doors, was that he didn't want to sign it. He felt after four years it was...

it was time to bow out. He'd given all he felt he had at that moment and leave on a high. And there were serious reservations there. Now, he went on to lead Arsenal to victory over City with the goal. Was it one goal or two? He then scored against Chelsea in the final to lift the trophy himself as skipper. Great euphoria. And Arteta met with him in and around that time. And

And they spoke about the future, potential signings, staff, the environment, where they wanted to go. And Arteta did a great job. He convinced him to re-sign. So did the fans. And at that moment, he was fully committed. But it wasn't long before personal problems were coming on board with his mother's illness and...

That made him depressed, he says. And soon the feelings that led to that apprehension on the contract started creeping back in. And he describes it as feeling like he was, you know, slowly, slowly giving up. And...

that was really where it started to unravel. But he does say that, you know, he received a really nice text message from Mikel Arteta after he left. And with time, it's been a bit of a healer. He would be prepared to have a conversation, sort of no hard feelings and, and you grow up and he's got very good wishes for, for Arteta and Arsenal. He says he still loves them and he, he,

Later in the interview, when he was talking about his admiration for Roberto de Zerbi from their short time together at Marseille before he went to the Saudi Pro League, he brackets Arteta and Marseille.

Thomas Tuchel alongside De Zerbe as kind of the best coaches he's worked with, despite the fact that he was obviously signed by Arsene Wenger, played under him and Jurgen Klopp at Borussia Dortmund. And that's the regard he holds Arteta in. It's a long, it's a wide ranging interview. It's got so many fascinating elements to it. I would urge people to go and check it out. And it was a real privilege for me to do about a person who has been so storied and has had such an interesting conversation

that continues. He wants to lead Gabon to the Africa Cup of Nations 2025. He wants to win it with them. He wants to go to the World Cup in 2026 for the first time with his country. He's got ambitions in business to become maybe a club owner or sporting director, not a coach. And finally, he is taking private lessons from

to become an actor. He calls it his dream to be a movie star. And when I asked him what genre, he said comedy, of course. And that felt pretty apt given everything that's happened over this last decade.

period in history. Yeah, I'm glad you had the opportunity to clarify exactly what area of film star work he wanted to go into. Lots in that interview, no question. You can tell by your enthusiasm speaking about it, how much you enjoyed doing it. Phil, how much did you enjoy reading it? What was the part of it that stood out to you? Oh, interviews like that are absolutely ace because of the different directions they go in and also because of how well-travelled Obama Yang is and the clubs he's played for.

I came away thinking that he's a pretty key chapter in the story of how Arsenal became Mikel Arteta's manor and his club and how his authority there was exerted to the level it's reached today. When he first went to Arsenal as head coach, there were big personalities and dare I say big salaries there.

all of whom, you know, one by one and little by little were either managed out the door or left to their own accord, but were essentially moved on to make way for the new wave that's come in. And Aubameyang really seems to me like one of those fights that Arteta felt he had to pick

one of those fights that he felt he had to win and ultimately did win. I think across the interview, you get the impression of somebody in Obama Yang who's incredibly single-minded, probably every bit as single-minded as Arteta, and perhaps that's why the friction developed and why there was the banging of heads. But a pretty fascinating character. I thought it was interesting when David asked him about, you know, the issue of moving to Saudi. Every player gets asked this when they go, you know,

What about the standard of the league competition out there? What about the country's human rights records and the concern there is about sports washing and everything else? And,

you know, he wasn't having any of it. He pretty much said people can have their opinions. I'll have mine. I didn't think him saying, you know, I might think about all that once I've finished playing stroke finished earning was necessarily the most wholesome answer, but it is totally for him to have his say. And he did. And as David said to anybody who hasn't read it, I would get in there and give it a bash because it's great from start to finish. Yeah, thank you, Phil. And I just want to add one thing. He is misunderstood, definitely. And he's not faultless by any means.

But it was interesting reading a lot of the reaction to the interview that was critical of him from certain people, many of whom hadn't actually read the interview. He's actually a charming guy. And I speak to people that have worked with him and around him at his many clubs and

and they really do talk of a decent human being I genuinely think he is and he's obviously an elite sportsman that's done fantastically well in his career but I almost felt bad when we when I went through the interview and when I was promoting it when you sort of point out the top lines because all of them seem to be like a controversy or how it went wrong at this club and that club and and

I didn't get the chance to mention just previously Chelsea. You know, he talks about signing 100% because of Thomas Tuchel. And then within days of arriving, Thomas Tuchel was sacked.

And he didn't know why he was meant to be there. And then before he knew it, he was dropped from the Champions League squad, which he describes as being treated a bit disrespectfully. He opens up on Chelsea, which he describes at the time being a mess and chaos. And suddenly you think, oh, he's in the midst of this again. He's been used by Barcelona despite a spell there where he describes it as the best match

of my career, he was used to help solve their financial issues after half a season. They sold him to Chelsea and he had the burglary. And, you know, there was even stuff not in the interview where he came from Dortmund. A lot of people talked about, you know, being late and social life and partying. And there've been a lot of misconceptions as well as truths. And I think

I just thank people like him for at least putting themselves forward and opening up and putting their version of events across. We can't want these people to speak all the time. And then when they do, we kind of say, oh, it's gone. It's in the past now. And, you know, irrespective of the fact that I did it, I think interviews like that give us a real insight into this so-called beautiful game.

Yeah, it's rare to get that. So definitely go and have a read if you're interested in Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang's situation. Go and have a look at the deal sheet as well. And also, of course, on The Athletic, we also have the Transfer Live blog, which is running throughout January. But for the moment, Phil and David, thank you so much for being with us on The Athletic FC podcast. And thank you for your company listening along as well. We'll be back tomorrow. Bye-bye. The Athletic FC Podcast Network.