What can Liverpool afford to spend this summer?
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The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

We'll see what Liverpool can afford to spend in the transfer window. But first, let's get into those three words. Andy, I'm going to come to you first. Give Simon time to think about it because he obviously hasn't prepared.

So after my frustrations of my last three words, finally moving on, I think is what I'll go with. Sorry? Come back fit. And that refers to you, actually, doesn't it? You know, you've come back fit. Fitness is not a word that you associate with me, Tony. Well, you know, we were talking last week about how you disappeared, you know, under this cloud of misery. Yeah.

And, you know, you've emerged from it bright, sunny, spring-like. Well, it's been lovely weather since, Tony, so I can't complain. Yeah, yeah. Lovely weather to win a league. Anyway, that's what Simon and Andy think. Here's what you've been saying. Nigel Surgeons, hate international weekends. Just the weekends, Nigel. I hate the weekdays as well. But, you know, there you go. Eva Magasi, regroup and enjoy. Garrett Allen, stress-free weekends.

Well, actually, international weekends give me more stress. And, David Carriger, everyone calm down. It's a bit Harry Enfield there, isn't it? To join our community of listeners on Facebook, just search Walk On Podcast and join the group. Sorry, aside from, like, most of our audience not knowing who Harry Enfield is... Do you think it's a good place to start? Everyone has sort of recovered from Wembley.

Yeah, I think so. I've got other things to be thinking about, I guess. No football to watch elsewhere, really, apart from international football, if you can call that football. I mean, Tony, even being honest, my disappointment or my frustration is over within 10 minutes of the final whistle these days. I've got things narrowed down to that. My frustrations last week...

were not emotional, I think they were valid concerns despite your attempts to paint me as an angry man. No, no, well, you know, obviously the listeners can't see you, but I could see those tears streaming down your face. Well, yeah, as I say, usually now if there's a bad result, I'm honest, I forget about it pretty quickly. But I mean, you know, I wouldn't say it's dominated the conversations that I've had since about...

in relation to football most of my mates are pretty pretty rational rationally minded when it comes to that it's not the disappointment of not winning or winning the cup or anything like that I think it's just like a frustration with the level of performance and how how I mean use that word it was an embarrassing an embarrassing performance I very often I could say that about how I felt watching Liverpool really a few people have spoken to were more disappointed with the

with the exit from the Champions League against PSG, that sort of has a greater meaning for the rest of the season for a lot of people, actually. And I can understand that because obviously it means that there's no Champions League football to look forward to. And when you get to this stage, you start thinking about

what it's going to be like at the end of May. So, yeah, really positive start to the podcast, Tony. Congratulations. Yeah, well, I mean, no, it's got to be positive, Andy. We're going to win the league and it's going to be a stress-free procession all the way to the big procession on the 26th of May. I mean, trust him to be negative about that.

Well, I sort of need to see what we do against Everton before we confirm the stress-free nature of how this type... I mean, I know I called it very, very early a few weeks ago that it would be nice for Liverpool to win the league in this way. And I still hope that is the case, by the way. And it should be the case. But yeah, you just hope that there is... Well, we've now got over it, or I'm...

just about over it now I think takes me a lot more than 10 minutes it's fair to say maybe 10 days possibly but I think hopefully that everyone sort of got out the systems now especially the players and while not many of them are having the greatest international break hopefully they'll all come back and just you know I've pressed that reset button and be able to enjoy the final weeks of the season because ultimately now Liverpool go to what is effectively one game a week which should

should really suit them there'll be no complaints about fitness at this point and if there is then then there's something got seriously wrong yeah yeah I mean there are concerns obviously looking forward and we've got to relish what is hopefully going to be a procession to the title but

You're right, Andy. We do have to pick up the points. You know, in football, you've always got work to do. You can't just say, oh, we're going to do it. But we talked about on Thursday, last Thursday, the impact Michael Edwards' return has had on the team. And I...

On the club, on that theme, we had listener Jonathan Wright giving touch and he says, Hi Tony, despite the recent disappointments in the Cups, Slott still has a great first season. His and Richard Hughes' second seasons look more and more likely to be defined by the need to rebuild, which, as Simon suggests, may require patience from the supporters. My question is, how much credit do you think Slott and Hughes will have in the bank after winning the league? Will this buy them a good amount of time and...

Thank you, Jonathan. Thank you. Thank you very much. Si, can you tell me about that? I haven't heard about that. You've kept that one quiet.

Yeah, to be fair, you do mention it more than me, Tony, and I am appreciative of the publicity. What's called chasing salary and it's available at all good bookshops. Yes. And all bad ones as well, apparently. There's no bad bookshops. That is a good question, you know, sort of how people respond to...

the success of this season and potentially, you know, a rocky next season. Well, yeah. I mean, you used the word transition and we all know what that means. That means no trophies. That means no trophies. That's how I sort of framed it last week, really. Because, you know, it would be a big ask potentially of Liverpool, Liverpool,

do undergo a lot of work on the team, and that means buying and selling players, which it seems like at this stage, given that none of the three players are out of contract yet,

having signed a contract and it's the end of March. I'm not saying that this is happening, but you now have to start to begin to think, well, this isn't happening. You know, it's getting late. I began to think that last March. Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, there is that point. But I think we're all kidding ourselves now if we think they're all staying, put it that way. You know, what is interesting from Liverpool's perspective is that now, given that nothing has been signed...

They are going to surely have to start work on the contingencies if they haven't already. So what sort of is surprising? I mean, Liverpool have been linked in lots of media organisations with lots of different players at the moment, but Richard Hughes must be talking to a lot of other players about potentially replacing some of the players that are out of contract. And they're just the ones that are out of contract. There's

question marks over the futures of several other players as well for all sorts of different reasons partly down to age in other circumstances down to their own contracts so Diaz-Canate fall into that situation so next season it will be interesting to see how much patience and how much rope

what could be a very new team gets even if they do win the league because bearing in mind as well it sort of felt like Liverpool are going to win the league for quite a long period of time as well I know the point of realisation means an awful lot to people but it's a credit to slot that it almost looks like as you say Tony a procession I'm not quite at that point yet I think they've got to get a win against Everton to get back on that on that track again and

a draw against Everton in the next game. I think, you know, it wouldn't take much for people to start panicking of Arsenal, turn the screw on them a little bit. But that being said, I think that it would feel like a fresh slate for everybody, I think, next season, potentially given the amount of work that needs to be done on the team and the squad. So, yeah, as much as I'd like to say, well, patience is deserved given how much they've achieved. I suspect in the way people think now, the modern world,

Even a club where the fan base, certainly the match going fan base, tends to be quite patient given the long wait for the league title. I suspect that people want to see evidence of progression. I don't think people will see...

winning the league again or competing in the league for title in the first season as the definition of how Liverpool should perform based on all the changes but they'll want to see a sign from the start of the season of some progression it's almost like a clean slate for slot again I see I think really yeah it might be unfair that might be a bit unfair I think there's a couple of things here that we need to just mention I think there's a very uh

There's a big divide between those who actually go to the games and a fair proportion of the online fan base. I think that's inescapable, an inescapable conclusion. And, um...

you know, some of the excitability that you see online, you don't see in the stadium or in the pubs around the ground. I think that's, that's, that's clear, Andy. I also think slot will have a ton of goodwill. I think Richard Hughes less so. And I think that might well be, I think that

probably unfair because people are sniping Aram already and you know I do think there'll be if there is a massive rebuild that doesn't work well I think there will be a fair old backlash against Fenway Sports Group who you know have done so much to change the nature of the club that they took over

but whose methods appear to be to allow it to coax for a couple of years in some situations. Yeah, I think you're spot on with Slott. I think winning a league title, I do think gives you a lot of rope. And I think, I almost think the fact that he came in as a head coach benefits him because almost that people will blame other people instead

instead of him. Now, if the team looks like a bag of rags and the performance, for example, against Newcastle becomes a norm rather than an anomaly, for example, then a lot more questions will be asked of him. And ultimately, Liverpool are winning this league in a large part because of one player scoring, having an unbelievable season, which you can't rely on. And if he's not doing that, then what?

what does it look like? For example, Hughes, yeah, I think you're right on, sort of Hughes, I mean, he's already getting grief, isn't he, for, you know, people asking what's he done and all that type of stuff. And unfortunately, and we've said this many times about the unfortunate situation he almost, you know, inherited with the contract. But if, for example, all three did leave,

there'll be huge question marks about him and it's not necessarily his fault because ultimately he is following the guidelines of what those above him are telling him he can offer them and all this type of stuff that is that you know to play in and

And then ultimately it will come down to what Liverpool do in the transfer window, which then reflects on him, I guess, but also reflects on those above as well. And you're right, I think, you know, FSG have constantly been able to sort of find that balance of... And Liverpool, listen, have had, you know, really poor seasons or seasons where they've not competed in the way that you expect them to compete and injuries have...

generally played a large part in that and sometimes that has been due to a lack of investments when they could have strengthened from a position of strength. But you have to believe that there's a plan, you know, whichever way the contract situations go because ultimately, you know, these people, you know, their reputations are on the line at the end of the day and you feel like would they have taken...

on at this time last year, for example, if they felt that this was coming and they wouldn't be able to overcome it. They've obviously shown in the past they've been able to build league winning teams and while they didn't necessarily build this one, I suppose their challenge is to be building the next one if we are expecting the sort of type of transition that we might see in the summer. But yeah, I think that there will be bits and pieces where we're

people will be given certain amounts of rope but I think those above slots will probably come in for criticism earlier if things are not going as well you know initially yeah I couldn't agree more couldn't agree more with the Venmo debit card you can turn the spa day that your friends paid you back for into concert tickets that you can earn up to 5% cash back on

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I haven't talked about the operations at Liverpool and the need to rebuild the team this summer. How are they going to afford it?

Well, to tell us that, to give us all the answers, it's a pleasure to welcome the Athletics' new football finance writer, Chris Weatherspoon, to the pod. Chris, brilliant to have you. Hello, good to be here. How are we doing? Well, first we have to apologise to you, don't we? Because, you know, we've inflicted so much misery on you. Yeah, Chris is a Sunderland fan and we let Newcastle win at Wembley.

So, Chris, I heard you're even more miserable than Simon Hughes in the aftermath of the game. And if that was so, then that's grim. Come on, Tony. Has anybody ever been out for a pint with you, Tony? Mr. Cheerful? Yeah. Come on. Well, you know, whenever anyone's out for a pint with me, invariably there's gales of laughter.

Usually Warren Warren. But anyway, come on, Chris, we need to get into the numbers. Yeah, on Friday, you published a brilliant piece around Liverpool's finances, which was, I've heard, described as exhaustive. And for those of us who've sort of struggled with this sort of thing,

Go on, tell us how much Liverpool have got to spend. No, well, I'm just glad you said the piece was exhausting for not exhausting. But yeah, no, I mean, I can't give you a specific number, but I can say that it's a bit weird to say that a club or any business that's just lost £57 million is in decent financial shape, but Liverpool are...

It's actually not only the worst loss of the FSG era, it's the worst loss ever, including under the control of two gentlemen whose surnames I'll probably not say on this podcast just before FSG. But there were extenuating circumstances. Obviously, Champions League football wasn't there. Mr Klopp and his friends, they got peered off, which was actually a move that I don't think a lot of football clubs would have done. I think...

it shows the achievements that that team managed and they were deserving of it so that came around £10 million you know there were the delays with the Anfield road end now the club got some compensation for the delays in the works but that will have added to the cost and they won't have taken as much income from the gate as they would expect to flare sales were down a little bit and

And yeah, so obviously nobody wants to lose 57 million pounds in a year. I wish I had 57 pounds to lose in a year. But yeah, weirdly they're, they're actually, they're fine. This,

This season, so last season actually was record revenue for Liverpool and this season will be again by some distance. It would actually be a surprise if Liverpool don't clear £700 million in revenue, which is as ludicrous a number as it sounds. The only other English club to have ever done that so far in Manchester City.

We probably won't go too deep on their finances. One of the quirks actually of the results, because I think when, I don't even think it was when the accounts came out, Deloitte do their football money league and they had the wage bill in there. And I think people were a bit,

perplexed as to how the wage bill went up last season. Obviously about 10 million of it was clop and staff getting paid off but actually another part of it, a quirk of the timing of accountancy which I'm going to regale you all with is that when teams qualify for the Champions League the bonuses, well they get paid upon qualification and they get recorded in the season in which you qualify so Liverpool's bonus

bonus for qualifying for this year went into last year's accounts, which is partially why the wage bill didn't come down. So yeah, so again, like I say, a bit of a weird one, but overall they're actually in pretty good shape. Record revenues, England's most profitable club was the quote. I mean, clearly things have improved financially under Fenway Sports Group, Chris. Yeah, massively. I mean, even with that 57 million loss, since Federer came in,

the club's pretty much broke even. They've lost like 2 million before. And that includes like three years when they first came in of pretty bad results and kind of sorting out the mess that they inherited. So yeah, so I mean, yeah, over the last 10 years, they're the most profitable club in England. The only club that actually comes close is, again, Manchester City. They're a mere 10 million behind. I think Liverpool's number is like 136 million over the last decade. So bear in mind, nobody in football makes money.

So it is an achievement. I'm sure there are people screaming, saying, we don't want to be profitable. We want to spend loads of money on that. And I do understand that. But I think from a purely financial perspective, it's hard to say that they haven't done a good job. They've certainly improved an awful lot from what they picked up in October 2010. Chris, the line in your article that really jumps out at me is something that I haven't really considered too much recently.

And it reminds me of the Moneyball film, obviously starring Brad Pitt from, I think, 2010, 11, maybe, where I think, I can't remember whether the film starts or ends, but it's with the Oakland A's having the lowest budget in the league, attempting, obviously, to do the impossible. And the line in your article is, Liverpool's squad...

are on course to be the cheapest to win the title since the club last managed it in 2019-20. Now, for me, that has been one of the motivating factors or motivating things behind FSG's involvement in football. They want to upset the odds, essentially. That's what they've always sort of thought. We can do this. We don't have to spend ridiculous amounts of money all of the time to achieve success.

Now, there's a difference between success and sustained success, of course, which is not quite what you'd say they've delivered so far. Obviously, with the context, you know, that they're competing against Manchester City with question marks all over their finances. 115 of them. You could say that, Tony. That's a better way of saying it. But I suppose that the question would be, you know,

Yeah.

Yeah and I think that's fair and I think because yeah when I was writing it I was thinking about like well how is this squad cost I mean don't get me wrong it's still like over 700 million but obviously with City City are over a billion Chelsea are well over a billion now United have ticked over a billion since the end of last season and

and Arsenal are higher as well so and I guess really I mean you guys know better than me but really the explanation is they've held on to key players or hopefully for you guys they're going to hold on to a couple of them again this summer but they've held on to them for quite some time and

I think really the, probably the main negative actually, weirdly, is they haven't been particularly great at selling people. And I think Trent Alexander-Arnold is kind of the poster boy for that right now. I mean, they seem to be at real risk of losing him for nothing this summer. And that's a player who, even with like a year left on his contract, he's

independent like consultancies and that and obviously like valuations are all relative interest transfers but they were valuing still at 75 million pounds a couple of years ago I think everyone was saying he was over 100 million pound footballer and

For someone like him to go for nothing, even prior to doing this piece and stuff, I always thought FSG's transfer policy was really good, actually. It was hard to identify too many duds out of the ones they'd signed. But I think, yeah, the black markets, probably they haven't been great sellers. Like, look, some of that, they've decided to keep hold of players and they've retained a strong squad. But actually, one of the things I put in the piece is,

if you look back over the last 10 years if you look at like profit on player sales they're third in england but if you look back only over the last five i think they're they're down in tenth and really what that's saying is that the sale of coutinho had a huge impact and had a huge impact on the finances in general like they made 125 million profit that year and 124 million that was not just from coutinho but from selling players so

So that kind of shows you that just like we've got an outlier last season in terms of the big loss, but you can have outliers either way. And that's, you know, you can't just strip that out and say, well, they'd have been terrible otherwise because everything they've done since then follows from that. You work in the circumstances that you're given. But that was quite an interesting thing that I uncovered, I thought, because really, if you, like I say, if you just looked over the last 10 years, you go, oh, Liverpool are one of the best clubs that sell players for a profit in the league. But actually, yeah,

if you get into the detail of it, it might be where they've fallen behind. Yeah, I think you're right on that, Chris, because they've had quite a lot of credit really for selling some of the younger players and getting better fees for younger players. And I think that stems from, you know, sort of 20 years ago, 15, 20 years ago, Liverpool didn't make any money out of the academy really. When the players left, you'd see them, by and large, drop down into the lower leagues or in a lot of cases, the non-league.

Liverpool have now made that more profitable, that process. I always think back to the last home game of the 2022-23 season. And we've spoken about this before. This would be an example of the failings. So you've got four players waving goodbye who are leaving the club on free transfers that summer, which is very similar to this summer. Albeit the players that are waving goodbye, there's a very strong argument that they should have been sold immediately.

earlier you know a much stronger argument you know that they weren't playing a massive role in the you know in the first team you know so I'm talking about Naby Keita who decided for a huge sum of money Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain who never really rediscovered his form after his injury we're

Roberto Firmino, who I think probably got 18 months too long, really, at Liverpool. Now, obviously, there's got to be a buying market for some of these players, but I do think that when Michael Edwards was originally appointed the Sporting Director, it was with the idea of him being able to cut these players ruthlessly. Now, obviously, as time went on, Liverpool became stronger and Edwards eventually leaves, really sort of

midway through the 2021-22 season at some point in that period where ordinarily Liverpool should have really been thinking about getting rid of some of these players and they didn't and to some extent I think that's cost them now you know they lost their way you know on the whole transfer strategy throughout that period there's lots of

You can blame all sorts of people for that, but ultimately it comes down to the owners. Well, I think it comes down to the balance of power. Yeah, it does come down to the owners. They're the ones managing that balance of power, ultimately. So it's on... You can say, well, Klopp this, Klopp that, or Edwards or Julian Ward or any of these people, but they're the owners. It's on their watch. So...

Yeah, agreed. Agreed completely. And certainly the balance of power at Anfield shifted in a way that Fenway Sports Group didn't really want it to happen and didn't kind of foresee it happening. However, Champions League and the title were delivered in that time. So it's a mixed blessings situation.

Chris, we've been asked a number of questions about the amortisation costs, what the number is, what it means, how it compares to Liverpool's rivals. Can you just run through that for us, please? I'll tell you what it means first and then we'll see what the figure is. So, effectively, the representative example, say Liverpool signed someone 50 million quid

They signed him on a five-year contract. Now, the concept behind this is, okay, you've got to play for five years, so he's an asset for five years. So it wouldn't make sense to just record that 50 million straight away in the books. So what they do is they amortize it over the length of the contract. So 50 million five years, 10 million a year. This is part of the reason Chelsea were given

giving out eight, nine-year contracts is that the longer the contract, the smaller the amount that goes on to the books each year. But it's basically, it's an indicator of how much clubs are spending in the transfer market. So last season, Liverpool's amortization bill was 114.5 million, which is

Sounds like quite a lot of money to me, especially as a Sunderland fan. Ours is nowhere near that. But actually, comparative, it's fifth in England. And actually, even that doesn't tell the full story because the next highest in Manchester City in fourth with 165 million. So that's a 50 million gap. You know, it's nearly half as much again, sort of thing.

Beyond that, you've got, you've got Arsenal United and then Chelsea. This wasn't even last season because we don't have their accounts for last season yet, but Chelsea in 22-23, their amortization bill and their profit and loss account was 203 million.

Now, we're waiting to see what it was last season when they released the accounts. United look like this season they're on course for over 200 million. So, I guess probably what the next question would be, well, is it good that it's low? I guess financially, yeah, you want it to be as low as possible and to have as good a squad as possible. And I think, speaking as objectively as I can, as not a Liverpool fan and not too upset about last Sunday, I would say Liverpool have got a pretty world-class squad. They've done so well.

with a pretty low well low amortization bill for one you know what I've said they might actually be six it depends what Spurs are Spurs are counting on when they come out I guess obviously the stick you could beat them with is well if they'd spent a bit more would Jurgen Klopp have had more than one Premier League title to show for his efforts now

I come from the view of, you know, he was exceptional and unfortunately he was up against someone else exceptional and with all the caveats around that. But from a financial perspective, I think it would be hard to criticize because they have got, they built such a good squad for an amount that doesn't impact them as much as the other clubs. But going back to what we talked about earlier, I,

if they spend big this summer or whenever that's going to go up. And Andy, they're going to have to spend substantial amounts in the summer, aren't they? This really is a moment upcoming. And Chris, I'd like your verdict on this after Andy's give his view. But I think this is probably going to be one of those periods in the summer which will define the responses to Fenway Sports Group for the next five years.

100% and they've kind of put themselves in this position by, well, for the lack of him, you know, activity last summer when people felt that, you know, could he have done more? And that activity, frankly, and I agree with Simon, we've said this before on the podcast, should have been either signing the three out-of-contract players or selling them. Sorry, Andy, can I just make a little jump in there? Just a very small point.

the really interesting thing is though obviously last summer they didn't sign well they signed Chiesa didn't they but they didn't really sign anyone who's had an impact in the summer of 2019 after they become Champions League winners he didn't sign anyone then they won the league and then he didn't sign anyone he didn't sign anyone last summer and it looks like they're going to win the league again so it's

It's a strange sort of argument in some ways, isn't it? I mean, the bottom line is I think that team 2019 did look ready to go on and win the league. But maybe more could have been done then to then protect themselves, you know, 18 months along the line. You know, that was always the classic thing at Liverpool. You're not just building for the summer, you're building for the summer after that. And this is what we keep getting told about FSG and, you know, Michael Edwards and all that. They're always thinking three windows down the line. But...

but evidentially maybe they are but they're not it doesn't feel like sometimes they're thinking about the impact of that you know like it means that there is going to be a fallow period which to some extent you have to accept because football really is proven it's very difficult to just continue winning but you've got to try and do it I guess that's the point that I was trying to make Yeah because I remember back in 2019 there was a lot of frustration about it but it was we feel we've got the group that can go on and you know obviously Liverpool had

you know, put up an exceptional title challenge the season before that and, as I said, you know, they were ready to win the league the following season. This side, probably, you wouldn't say, you wouldn't have said that at the start of the season but obviously, if,

I've gone on to do what they're doing at the moment. But it's like, yeah, it's like, you look ahead to the following season when Liverpool lost all the centre-halves. They sold one, kept three, all three got injured and it all fell apart. And then, okay, yeah, they bounced back the season after and, you know, two goals away from a quadruple, if you like, and all that type of stuff. So, I guess maybe that is the model. It is. It's the ups and downs that can bring. But,

does come back to wanting to run the club you know sustainably and when you look at the wage bill and how high that is and why you can continue to set you know record revenues and you think of the number of players Liverpool have got rid of you know let go for free for example and you know the wages that they were on you know all big wages that were coming off the book but it's still not made a

I know obviously there's extenuating circumstances in this sort of wage cycle, if you like, in the most recent accounts, but it's still not made a dent in suddenly Liverpool's wage bills dropped off a cliff or anything like that. It's still always up there. And ultimately, I think what is a little bit more promising is that, like Chris was talking about, in terms of the sales, it felt like Liverpool were back to, I guess, the Michael Edwards era, you

you know, last summer, okay, they didn't bring anyone in, but, you know, Seth Vandenberg, Fabio Carvalho, Bobby Clark, and, you know, what are really good fees for all three of those players? I know it's not great because you want to be signing players as well, but it does feel like maybe they're moving back into that direction and you look at the, you know, the potential for the amount of money they could bring in this summer if they sell certain players, if,

Nunes does go, Kelleher, Tyler Morton, not quite sure what his value would be at this point, but suddenly if Diaz goes, you're suddenly looking at a lot of money coming in, which then will allow you to sell. Because I think one of the issues with the midfield rebuild a couple of years ago was that Liverpool...

you know, they got good money in for Fabinho, not that much in for Henderson, but then spent a lot of money probably in terms of Ness. It was probably one of the bigger windows that FSC had ever sort of, you know, had in terms of the outlay compared to what was coming in the door. And I suppose...

that shouldn't be the case this season because of what you know they've done last summer to sort of you would think set up this summer maybe but also the transfer fees that they should be getting as well coming in you know for players that do you would think leave.

Can I just ask Chris a question? Another thing that jumped out in his article, which I must say people should go and read because there's a few nuggets, certainly a few nuggets in there that just jump out on the page. But the biggest contributor to Liverpool's increased loss was £29.2 million in non-staff expenses. What exactly does that mean? So does that mean, you know, people are trying to entertain going out drinking and eating or what? Paying off clubbing and...

No, so the clop stuff was in the wage bill. So this is... Okay. So, well, non-staff expenses, basically, but they also go down as like other expenses, which is incredibly nebulous and very difficult to know exactly what's in it. But...

a big driver for Liverpool was the increased commercial activity and the cost of running like a bigger ground sort of thing and like I said at the start first of all obviously there were delays and they did get some compensation for that but they won't have realised the full kind of revenue potential of that

but they still had to pay the costs and things as mundane as like security costs and that for a bigger space and whatever else in that. So it's kind of that, it's basically like as your activity goes up and like say on the commercial side, they're doing more. So they, they bear more costs there. Now, I think I also put after that is that this year with like a full season of like the new newly extended stand. And I think we're looking at more commercial revenue upticks and stuff. Um,

Those costs won't go away and they're like general like inflationary costs as well, but they should be offset by the increased income this year. But one of the things, just in a link to that, actually, I'll go back to what you were saying Andy about the wage bill. One of the things that, I'm sure you guys don't miss it, but like is that Liverpool are genuinely like a massive club, not just in terms of reputation, but in terms of the amount of people they employ. Yeah.

If we just look at like how the admin staff, the only club that currently employ more in England, Manchester United, and we all know what's going on there. So it is likely, I would say that if not by the end of this season, then by the end of next season, Liverpool might be the biggest employer in English football. And obviously that costs a lot of money. Like when we talk about the wage bill, clubs don't disclose how much they pay the players and non-players, but there was a UEFA report for 22, 23, which was a lot of money.

that if you worked it out basically Liverpool's like non-playing wage bill was about 109 million pound now bear in mind Brentford's entire club wage bill last season was 115 I think that gets you to you know the size of the club and how much it costs to run it and that's why you know dropping out the Champions League last season resulted a big loss if you're a club that big you need to be competing at the highest level in order to keep up with your costs and stuff so

But I think as well, sorry, just to go back to where we started on this about like, will this be like kind of make or break for FSG? I think in a way it will because especially with the way the club's been run, especially with what they're up against, they have less kind of room for error. Like I think, you know, Keita was kind of held up as he was the one kind of big dud that they signed, the one that they never really got what they needed for a big amount of money. Right.

But there's a few other clubs who've spent more on players and let them sit on the bench and they don't have the ramifications that maybe a club like Liverpool does. Now, obviously, that's of FSG's own choosing to run the club as sustainably as possible. But I think that is where it becomes paramount that they get it right. Because like I say, if they get it wrong, you guys are a little better than me. But I couldn't see them saying, oh, well, I tell you what, we'll chuck 100, 200 million in. I can't see them doing that.

So I think that's where that comes from. You know, in another world, I don't think FSG are perfect and I know they've done plenty wrong, but in another world where you don't have like nearly every other club losing money every single season and that, they'd probably be viewed as pretty good custodians. And that's in that they're not. But you know what I mean? I think relatively they'd be, they might be viewed a little better than they are. Yeah, I have to say, I agree completely with you there, Chris. For all the flaws that,

What they've done has been reasonable. I sometimes wonder about the individuals involved and the fate that the owners have in them and those individuals having their own ability. Well, they certainly have an ability to forget the bad signings, but, you know, I don't think they're the worst owners. But before you go, we've got to ask you about the £57 million loss, profits and sustainability, and I have to pin you down vaguely.

Can you give us a sort of, for want of a better word, a window of what Liverpool could probably afford to spend? You're going to get me in trouble. This is what you're trying to get me in trouble. I get everyone in trouble. You know, I think the most stick I got for the article on Friday was I said there was just the Premier League left and I did not mean that.

just the Premier League I meant it in the context of well there were three and now they're one and it's still a very good season but so I have no doubt Chris Chris don't worry about her fan base they're the touchiest you know in the world but they're not as bad as her so who will oh who will scream Blue Maid at the drop of a hat so you know I mean

Well, I'm going to comment on neither of them because I haven't been here five minutes and I don't want to get screamed at too much. But I think from a PSR perspective, the people are fine because obviously, yeah, they lost 57 million. They've actually lost money in two of the last three years. But what people forget or maybe don't realize is that you can deduct, especially when you're a big club, you can deduct

you can deduct quite a sizable amount. So for example, the cost of running the academy, running the women's team and that, that all comes out. So actually...

bear in mind these are very much estimates and I have no doubt that there'll be something wrong in there but I estimated that this year the club could lose about 75 million pounds and still be compliant with PSR now obviously they lost 57 last year so you might be going oh well that's only an extra 18 but I think based on what we've already discussed I would actually be surprised if Liverpool weren't in profit next year because they've got record revenue like Andy said the player sales have gone up

The wage bill's the great unknown, but it would be, especially with those bonuses for the Champions League going into last year, it would be a surprise if it's up hugely. Yeah, and they're probably going to drop the three highest earners. Well, and then obviously they didn't sign anyone really apart from Chiesa in the summer. So like the amortization that we talked about, that's not really going to move up if at all. So they should make a profit. So that does mean that actually under PSR, they've got,

they've got quite a lot of room to work with

just because you've got the route to work with it doesn't mean that you max it all out. I guess the other point is PSR is very different from how much cash do the club actually have to play with. Now, Liverpool generated about, I think it was about £83 million cash from operations last year, but that's before like player trading and stuff. They actually, they spent a huge amount in cash on transfers last year. Now, Liverpool are actually a bit of an outlier among like the big six in the

they only in uh bookmarks they only owe other clubs about 70 million pounds on transfers now that might sound like a lot but you consider that spurs arsenal and united all over 200 million and chelsea who don't disclose it if you look into some of the numbers around it they're almost certainly way over that figure as well so actually that puts liverpool in a position where i'm sure you heard jim rackliffe talking about having to

pay for players that United signed seasons ago and stuff that's what he's taught right he's taught about the instalments on transfers but Liverpool's burden there is nowhere near as high as their competitors you know the Champions League this year it's hard to put an exact figure on it because it's a new format and stuff but you're looking at about 84 million this year for Liverpool even though they've gone out

last year in the Europa League I think they got about 22 23 so we're taught really they should have plenty of cash to go and do do some business the big unknown as well what happens with these three three out of contract players you know if none of them stay I would expect a really significant spend if if a couple of them stay and one goes it's hard it is hard to say because obviously

Wages don't get reported that much compared to transfer fees, but actually wages are the biggest burden that clubs have to bear. I did put in the article, and I wasn't being mischievous, but the rumoured interest in Alexander Izak, even at his £150 million asking price, feasibly Liverpool could afford to pay it. Whether they would or whether they should is obviously an entirely different matter. But

Like we've already said, they spent heavily two years ago. They didn't spend really at all last year. So it stands to reason that actually they could spend heavily again this summer. And, you know, I've learned a lot in this half hour I've been on here. And it sounds like you guys all think they might need to do that. Yeah, yeah. I'll tell you what.

Chris, that's been absolutely brilliant. And we've got a great headline from that because it sounds to me like you just said, Liverpool about to go on a 250 million spending spree in the summer. It's the war chest. That's what we've got now. It's a war chest. War chest. Unless, of course, Si can come up with a better term for war chest. But no, that was brilliant. So thank you very much. And I'm sure we'll have you back on again. A lot of fascinating stuff.

So, Chris, thank you so much. Thanks for having me. And if I do it again, can we not do it

Can you make sure eight days prior you haven't gone and done what you did last weekend? Because I went for a run while I was on. I got very far from home before I thought I'm going to have to turn around here and I can't be doing that again. But no, thank you very much for having me. So that's it from Walk On, your Liverpool podcast brought to you by The Athletic. Thanks to Simon and Andy for joining me and of course Chris, who was absolutely brilliant. Oh, and you've been brilliant as well for joining us.

We'll be back later in the week. We'll catch you then. The Athletic FC Podcast Network.