FA Cup sacrificed as Slot's Reds eye derby day success
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The Athletic FC Podcast Network. All right, Reds, Tony Evans here with Walk On, your Liverpool podcast from The Athletic. I'm here with James Pearce and Simon Hughes. Well, it didn't go to plan and Plymouth, did it? Oh, did it? Is the FA Cup elimination really so bad? Well, talk about that defeat at Home Park, how Liverpool tackle the runner games to come, and of course, look forward to Wednesday night's derby. But before I come to your three words, a quick announcement.

From this week, we'll be with you twice a week. Tuesday and Thursday. Now, isn't that good news?

Depends on your point of view, really, doesn't it? Anyway, let's go to those three words. Si, you're going to have to do three words twice a week. That's six words. How are you going to cope? Oh, guys, I didn't think of that, actually. Surely we can come up with another gimmick for the Thursday. That's up to producer Guy to sort out. But given that this is on a Tuesday, I'm going to go with three big aways. And that's true, James. Your three words. Let's not overreact. I think that's fair enough.

And let's see what you're thinking. Robert Schema, well played Plymouth. Fair play. Paul William and Kevin Draisley, both say blessing in disguise. I can see that as well. Keith Graham, more manageable workloads. And Sean Breslin, Wednesday means more. It certainly does, Sean. To join our community of listeners on Facebook, just search Walk On Podcast and join the group.

Well, we won't be winning the quadruple this season, but was anyone even talking about quadruples, James? It never crossed my mind. No, no. There's a good reason why nobody's ever done it. You know, not even Man City with their bottomless pit of cash and the depth of talent that Guardiola has been able to call on over the years. And I think especially with the Champions League being even bigger, you know, if Liverpool had gone the distance in all competitions...

You'd have been looking at 65 games this season. So I think it was inevitable that something would have to give at some point. I think even if Liverpool had negotiated the Plymouth tie, I think slot still would have played a weakened team and the chances are that the run ends there. So yeah, I think that the manner of it was still frustrating in a way because you never, you don't want to be just accepting defeats, do you?

But in the grand scheme of things, the reality is that Liverpool have got much bigger fish to fry. I agree with that, Si. It goes against my instincts to say, you know, it's good that they lost or want them to lose. But sometimes...

strategic defeats like this. You go, oh yeah, you know, it works for me. Yeah, I mean, I had mixed views. I thought it was a very poor performance by the players there. That was terrible. They did play. I mean, there is that. I think, you know, from the players' perspective, players that haven't played much or players trying to break into the team, a missed opportunity for them to prove that they're capable of dealing with pressure because it wasn't like Liverpool stumbled out of the cup. They sort of got bullied a little bit and

difficult you know obviously at a venue where it was very much in favor of the home team and dealing with a lot of pressure they just didn't deal with it at all well but bearing in mind those three words that i used tony three big away games coming up unfortunately you just can't have everything so i don't blame slot for playing a weakened team and at this stage i'm

the season the FA Cup was the lowest priority trophy everywhere in the League Cup final and he'd been knocked out maybe there would have been a bit more room for real criticism but I've said all along this season you know they're given the chance that they have in the league given that they're doing so well in the Champions League I just think they've got to be the priority at every turn he's obviously played a weakened team against PSV a few weeks ago he did it in the League Cup in some of the earlier rounds but

But, you know, I don't think you're going to see that in the Champions League or the league, are you? And I just don't think Liverpool have the squad to deal with three or four runs. As James said, no one, no other team has been able to do it before. And that is historically a very, very, very difficult thing to achieve. So a disappointing performance, but...

I don't think it's the end of the world if I'm being honest. Yeah, James, you can give the kids a pass in a game like this because, you know, it's difficult when you go to a championship team and, you know, even if they are at the bottom where grown men are going to bully them a little bit.

But some of the more established players were very disappointing. I mean, obviously, this was a moment for Chiesa and you think to yourself, he can really use this as a launch pad for the rest of the season, but he was terrible, wasn't he? Yeah, his performance probably stuck out more than most because I think also the frustration was that if you think back to PSV away, he was one of the bright,

points that night because I thought there were signs in that game that he looked fitter, stronger, sharper and especially, you know, he didn't, obviously, he didn't even make the bench, did he, for the

I think it was the Premier League trip to Bournemouth recently. So you're thinking, surely if you're Chiesi, you're looking at Sunday as being quite big in the grand scheme of things because he's essentially the sixth choice attacker. And it's like Sunday could have big implications for him in terms of the rest of the season. And to perform in the way he did, and let's be honest, no one really came out of that game with any surprise.

semblance of credit but the stats were pretty gruesome Chiesa gave the ball away 29 times over the course of the game and yeah that front three when the team sheet dropped you thought that front three should have enough to get the job done with Chiesa and Jota and Diaz but yeah

But yeah, all three of them were so ineffective. And it probably also, you know, let's be honest, the loss of Gomez early on hurts Liverpool because then, of course, Endo then has to drop into the back line. And then you've got such an inexperienced, young, lightweight midfield.

and ultimately you know I think that that probably played a big part in the outcome but even you could look at someone like Simakas there's been such a battle hasn't there for that left back slot and and you know the rotation that's gone on and you know if you're Simakas you know you surely you're looking at Sunday as you know I need to prove a point about who should be starting the left back for these big Premier League games coming up yet you know all he did

in truth, will show why Robertson's been getting picked ahead of him. Yeah, definitely. One hell of a battle for that left-back spot and about trying to lose it. No, no, let's be serious. No, sorry. The wider reaction... There's two things that struck me. The wider reaction. The joy. The joy that Liverpool had been beaten. And you would think it was one of the great Liverpool sides that was beaten. Yeah.

Yeah. And the other thing is the home fans. Where's your famous atmosphere, they sang. Well, it's Anfield. It's about 300 miles away, like. Yeah. Have you forgotten how this works? You know, they're the ones that are meant to generate the atmosphere. And to be fair, they did. But it's just like, again, it sort of shows you how.

Football fans tend to parrot what they've heard elsewhere without thinking about the meaning behind it. It was given such a good blow with gusto. I was like, what are you doing? But the broadcasters were obviously very keen for a cup shock. Bearing in mind, you know, late Norians had gone close enough to beating Man City the day before, but obviously they didn't get what they wanted out of that.

It just seemed to be forgotten that Liverpool basically had two players in the forward line who would ordinarily play. And then the rest of the team were players either trying to get into the team or youth team players. So, you know, they were either eight or nine players short of the full strength team. So this was not, you know, the Liverpool team that has been unbeaten in the league since September, right?

until the last group game of the Champions League. We still call it a group, the mega group in the Champions League, but unbeaten. So, yes, they beat Liverpool in aim, but they didn't beat Liverpool, the team that we all know. I have expected to wake up this morning, James, and see Liverpool in crisis headlines. Right, some of the reactions. But, yeah, let's forget about the FA Cup. Well, not quite. I was going to say, let's forget it ever existed. But, elsewhere...

You know, Lewis Koumas scored two goals in Stoke's 3-3 draw with Cardiff, knocked out in penalties, but he appears to be thriving, doesn't he? Yeah, he is, yeah. I think Liverpool have enjoyed...

a fair bit of success with the loan market so far this season. You wrote about it last week, didn't you? I did, yeah. Ben Doak, I'd say, probably the standout young player in the Championship. And of course, Liverpool had plenty of interest in him in the January window, rejecting those bids from Palace and from Ipswich. And yeah, it's no great surprise that they were happy to let him continue his development at Middlesbrough for the rest of the season because...

He's really kicked on impressively. And yeah, it was just interesting speaking to a few people for that piece about the work that goes on into, you know, finding the right place for these youngsters and the use of data to try and ensure that they're joining a squad and a manager that kind of is going to play to their strengths. Because I think with someone like Doak,

there would have been no point putting a young winger in a team that that smacks the ball up to a big fella up top or or a team that was going to be backs to the wall desperately trying to cling on to grind out results in games you know it fits Stoke's skill set the fact he's playing for you know a team going for promotion in Middlesbrough that that are on the front foot and seeing plenty of the ball and Kumas has been different for him there's been a lot of upheaval at Stoke I

I think he's played for three different managers already this season, but, you know, great education for him. And then I think the other one that's really stood out is Owen Beck at Blackburn in terms of Beck, a bit more of a late developer in his early 20s now. And he had a couple of loans that didn't work out early on in his career. But yeah, this one, a team at the top end of the championship as well is Blackburn.

is working out really, really nicely for him. So yeah, Liverpool will hope that all three of those players will come back in pre-season, ready to stake a claim for involvement next season.

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As I said at the beginning of today's show, we're back to two regular episodes of Walk On. We'll be with you every Tuesday and Thursday throughout the rest of the season. So we're wrapping our output and we expect the same from you. We want to hear your thoughts on the pod. The best way of doing that is by emailing thoughts to walkonattheathletic.com. That's walkonattheathletic.com. We'd love to hear from you.

I'll say, as we mentioned before, the elimination from the FA Cup does ease the demand in the next few weeks.

I mean, they've got five games and 15 days to come. Starting, of course, with the derby. I was listening to one piece of commentary, I forget where it was, but they said, and on Wednesday, it's the last Merseyside derby. And I thought, what? Are Everton going bust? And then they corrected themselves and said, a goodison. And we mean a goodison. It's a heavy workload, starting with a, what looks like it could well be a very difficult game. Yeah.

Yeah, so obviously Everton lost at the weekend to Bournemouth. And when I saw that result, I thought that is a good result for Liverpool because their confidence will be checked after a good run of form. And I suspect some of the old doubts will creep back in ahead of the derby. Obviously for Everton, it's the last Merseyside derby at Goodison. So it's...

of significance historically to Everton as a club. I just saw a tweet by the Anfield Wrap and I think the record is 41 wins each at Goodison Park. So that is correct. If Liverpool were to win at Goodison Park, they will have had more wins at the famous old stadium than Everton. So there's a historical context behind the importance of this game, but more immediately, Liverpool have got three big away games coming up. Everton, Liverpool,

Manchester City, Aston Villa, with Newcastle at home in the middle of that run as well as Wolves. So it's in a very tightly packed schedule for Liverpool and it sort of leads back to the Plymouth conversation. I mean, I just think it would be impossible just to play

full strength team for that Plymouth game with all of this run of fixtures coming I thought we decided never to speak of Plymouth and the FA Cup again I'm winding backwards aren't I but the bottom line is it's a really big game for Liverpool because you know if they can go and win a good some park I just think it sets them up nicely for that run if they get results you know like they got last season it will it could check the confidence but

More likely than not, you know, the record over the last 10 years, 10, 15 years at Goodison, there's been a lot of draws. So I wouldn't be surprised if it was a draw. I don't think it'd be the worst result in the world for Liverpool, but a win would really, really just set them up for this tight run of fixtures that you've got coming up. Yeah, James, it's going to be...

I mean, Dogs of War was pre-Moyes, it was under Joe Royal. But there's going to be a little bit of that going on, isn't there? Do you think it's going to be very physical, this game? Yeah, I think that's Everton's best hope. Because I think if it's an open, expansive game of football, then Liverpool win. Because they've got the better quality in all departments. But...

Yeah, I know the manager's changed and Everton are certainly in better nick now than they were a couple of months back. But I don't think the approach will be too far different from what we saw when Liverpool last went to Goodison, what was it, back end of last season and they got bullied. I think Liverpool struggled to handle that physicality and that is something they're going to have to be prepared for. And I think that was probably one of the reasons, forgive me for mentioning the P word again, but

I think for why slot pick the team he did, because, you know, he will know the energy that's going to be needed at Goodison on Wednesday night to stand up to that.

And that was why the only player that was on duty that had started against Tottenham a few days before was Quivine Keller, wasn't it? All those outfield players that we'd expect to start at Goodison were all given the day off. With the benefit of hindsight, if you wanted to...

I'd say, you know, you'd maybe regret not having a couple more options on the bench for that one. But yeah, the reality is this game is so big because I think, I agree with Si, people have said to me, like Liverpool have to win at Goodison now, you know, it would be a disaster. There's so much more pressure on the derby now because of what happened at Plymouth. That's a nonsense. Nine of the last 12 league derbies at Goodison have finished in a draw. Five of the last 10 have been goalless.

Like Liverpool don't have a fantastic record there in terms of winning games. But it's more if you could win, then go nine points clear. That is huge, especially because I think it just gives you that little bit of margin for error, doesn't it? Because this is such a gruelling run to have five in the space of 15 days. You know, the other away games at Villa Park and at the Etihad, you know, I think it's highly unlikely that Liverpool go and win all three of those away games.

But if you can get off to a winning start in that run at Goodison, it's not only what it does for Liverpool, it's just how deflating that would be for Arsenal because they will be looking at Wednesday night. That will be circled in the diary as if Liverpool are going to let us back into this title race, they will think that's where it's going to start. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of wishful thinking in North London going on at the moment, so...

But one of the things that's been interesting, because you've written about the medical situation at Liverpool, Andy Jones wrote last week about the changes to the training methods under slots and the impact they've had on keeping the squad fresh and injury-free. And Ruben Peters, who come into the club, appears to be making an impact. What do you make of all this?

Well, I think it was something that needed to be sorted out. It was a big issue at Liverpool for quite a long time. I mean, I wrote about it, how long ago was it? Autumn of 2022. And didn't James get blamed for it? James got blamed for it. Yeah, there's a long story behind that one, isn't there, James? Do we really want to go there? Shall we go there? They say that time's a good healer, but they lie. Yeah.

Yeah, a very strange catalogue of events after that one. But anyway, if readers want to know that story or listeners should say, just let Guy know on the Facebook page and we'll go into it next week. But anyway, yeah, I think it'd been a problem for Liverpool. And the bottom line is, I mean, has there ever been a football team that has won one trophy or multiple trophies before?

whilst navigating, you know, really bad injury lists? No, there isn't. You know, it tends to be the teams that keep the players fittest and available and freshest have the best chance of winning. And it did scupper Liverpool's chances and hopes at various points. You know, let's not forget last season. I mean, some of the injuries that they had last season were,

did involve a certain amount of bad luck. But, you know, I think that a lot needed to happen over the summer. It was one of the big, big issues that Arnaud Slott and Richard Hughes and Michael Edwards needed to look at to change Liverpool's fortunes in terms of availability. Obviously, Andy's piece goes into detail on that. And I think, you know, one of the key things is just the way... I know when Slott first became Liverpool's manager...

He told a lot of people that he just wanted the sort of training schedule to be a bit different, you know, in terms of maybe not as intense, but it doesn't mean that they're training less or not training as hard, if that makes sense. You know, just with a bit more common sense at times, I would argue. So, yeah, I mean, Liverpool's injury record this season has been good so far. I still think, you know, if they can keep that going between now and the end of the season, it's going to...

give them a really good chance to certainly maintain the Premier League title charge if not in Europe as well. Yeah James in the summer when everyone was demanding signings pieces come in and did you get the blame for no signings and bringing pieces in? No

And the article that I wrote two years ago as well. Do you know, I just get the impression from speaking to people at the club that everything is just a bit more joined up and a bit more, I think, kind of...

the expertise across different departments functioning better everyone together less chaotic less chaotic yeah I think and also you know you always have to be slightly careful with these things because obviously it can easily come across as you say well everything was bad before and everything you know did all this wrong my view is Klopp kind of thrives a little bit on chaos and that's what made Maid of Crete well I think there was also an element for Klopp and his staff it was a lot of it was

how far can you push players? It was like, you know, because it was very much pushing people to the limit. And that was part of it, wasn't it? You know, that was a key part of Liverpool. You know, you speak to those players and, you know, right down to, you know, I remember when Klopp used to do things like bringing in breathing experts in pre-season to show them like just how long you can hold your breath for underwater. Because that was kind of the kind of thing of

We just go and go and go. And of course, when you're pushing people to the absolute limit all the time, people are going to break down. That is inevitable. So I think this is just a different way of doing things. And, you know, obviously, Ruben Peters had got a lot of credit from the part he played as part of slot staff at Feyenoord in terms of mapping out individual players.

training loads and making sure that there's enough rest and recovery. And I think Slott has been very cute in terms of

he has given players more time off I'd say than they were used to you know you had that period not long ago when you know he basically gave McAllister a whole week off when he had that suspension and I think he's always looking for those opportunities where you can give certain players the rest they need with one eye on them lasting the pace this season and I think also you know Jonathan Power who's the head of medical people speak very highly of him because he although there's a lot of

focus on Reuben Peters. You know, Jonathan Power essentially is head of, you know, all facets of kind of medical rehab and recovery. I just get the feeling that everything is just a bit more joined up and, you know, touch wood so far that is paying dividends in terms of keeping people fit. ♪

So, one of the things that I would say, almost without exception, as long as I've been around football, is that when new managers take over, they go, yeah, they're not fit enough. They're not fit enough. They always do that. This is probably the first situation. The two fit. The two fit. They need a bit more time off. No, it's a fair point, Tony. It is. It is. I mean...

What James says there is right. I mean, in some of my coverage of the problems that Liverpool had going back a few years, you know, it was very clear to me that, you know, Klopp was the leader and everything pretty much Klopp said happened, which let's face it, you know, who can say that's wrong? It led to Liverpool having enormous success beyond anyone's wildest dreams at the point when he came in. But there was...

a problem with that in that sometimes you know his instincts wasn't always correct and equally

For the departments trying to work together, it became increasingly hard. I think a lot of people see football clubs when the times are good. That means that everything behind the scenes is hunky-dory. It's not. That's just the reality of it. Any football club, quite often in times where things are good, it's actually the opposite. People are trying to push each other and prove themselves in spite of one another. And that goes from the players to the staff and everyone else and everyone

My impression was that at certain points, things weren't joining up as much as they should have done, which was leading to decisions about player training, player fitness, not being the right ones at times. That's not me saying Jürgen Klopp was a bad manager. The opposite, he's an absolute genius. He's the most successful manager in Liverpool's modern history ever.

But that doesn't mean that he gets everything right. And with the way he led the club, there was a risk. He was a risk taker, wasn't he? Oh yeah, everything was predicated on risk reward. Risk reward, and that's the way the team plays, you know, and who can fault him for that? But, you know, there was a downside to some of the, you know, some of that approach, I would say, which explained why the

would go from one season trying to win the quadruple. Let's not forget Liverpool nearly did it. You know, they weren't that far away. You know, it was very, very close. But a consequence of that was what happened the next season, you know. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's worked really well, James. I mean, the fifth fewest changes since starting XI in the Premier League this season. It means players get used to playing with each other and there's more coherence, perhaps, in the style. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we've seen that with the partnerships that have been so integral to Liverpool performing at such a ridiculously high level.

For so much of the season up to this point, you know, you think of the centre-back combination of Van Dijk and Canate. And of course, you know, Canate had that one spell out, didn't he? But by and large, he has managed to get back to where he was, having kind of lost his way towards the end of the Klopp era. You know, that has been key. And then, you know, the midfield, the fact that, you know, Gravenberg has been absolutely immense, hasn't he, at the base of that midfield and, you know,

yes you know Sir Bosley and Curtis Jones have alternated a bit but but mostly it's been McAllister alongside Gravenberg and the benefit of that being settled and then you know Gagpo on one side and and Salah on the other you know the they're pretty much nailed on aren't they it's um yes the identity of the number nine has changed a bit but there has been a lot of continuity that has helped Liverpool I mean it's going to be interesting to see what he what he goes with in terms of the

the number nine at good side I think he'll probably go Darwin Nunes just because I think I think your want is his physicality out there as much probably you know in terms of you know defending set pieces will probably be an important part of his job on the night I'd I thought

Well, let's talk about the trip to Goodison, which obviously was postponed. I mean, is it going to be worse? Well, it couldn't be worse because there was massive gales that day, wasn't there, Si? And that was a suit of Devon down to the ground, whether it was Dyche or the Messiah. You know, but candy tours on a cold Wednesday night in February at Goodison. Well, I mean, it's strange because sort of, I know we've gone through Liverpool's record there at Goodison over the last 10 years.

15 years. And, you know, it's not great, but, you know, certainly as a spectator, I've got happy memories of Goodison. Liverpool actually haven't lost there very often either in the last, well, since the turn of the century, really. I mean, in the 90s, Liverpool felt like they struggled quite a lot against Everton, despite, you know, Liverpool certainly the back end of that decade being the better team. They always seemed to come unstuck against Everton when Liverpool

You know, you're talking about the physicality. But Gerard Houliard, I'd say, was the manager that turned that around. You know, a French manager actually made Liverpool play very British-style football. And suddenly Liverpool started winning at Goodison quite a lot. And so it's a game that I always look forward to, really, I've got to say. I always fancied Liverpool to win there, but you can always tell...

the first sort of 10, 15 minutes, how it's going to go. And if Everton start nervously, I'd fancy Liverpool just to take advantage of that, really. Because there's just as much pressure on Everton and the Everton players as there is Liverpool, really, because of the historical context. You know, if suddenly Everton don't start well, I can imagine it's going to be quite hard for the Everton players because they're

because it's the last game of Goodison Park in the Merseyside Derby for them. Yeah, I mean, it's going to be an emotional place. I would imagine that our Bulloo brethren are going to be on the top note. In fact, probably have been for about a week and a half already. And, you know, it's going to be a hostile atmosphere, isn't it, James? Yeah, it will be, yeah. I think that's probably the one downside when obviously the initial fixture was postponed too

in December was you kind of thought well actually atmosphere wise it's going to be harder now because I think going there at 12.30 on a Saturday is different than going there under the lights on a Wednesday night but when you actually think back to that initial postponement you know Alisson was out injured Jota was out injured, Canarte was missing, no Bradley, Simakas was out McAllister would have served his ban that day as well

So I think when you balance it all up, I think you'd rather be Liverpool going into Wednesday night with the scenario they're at rather than what it would have been if the initial game had gone ahead. But yeah, it's in a funny way, it feels like one of those kind of huge games in a season which has the ability to define what comes after it because it's

All eyes will be on Goodison on Wednesday night to see whether, you know, whether, although the personnel are completely different, as you said, you know, there is this, this like, it creates this fervour, doesn't it, when Liverpool lose. It's like the collective glee around the country at seeing, you know, Slott make, you know, the first mistake of his, you know, real, real mistake of his Anfield reign and, you know, it's,

talking about the pressure's been cranked up and it's like I wouldn't go that far but it's like Liverpool have got the chance to go out there and make a proper statement and like I said it's it's not just what it does for Liverpool ahead of such a big big run but it's like what it what it does to Arsenal because you know I think I think they're away at some training camp in Dubai at the moment aren't they and um yeah they will be they'll be desperately hoping for a favour off uh

of our blue neighbours. And Liverpool have got to be prepared for that physical side, because I think if they handle that, then they will just have too much quality for Everton. Yeah, definitely. And, Si, I mean, for those listeners who are not from Liverpool, we talked about the physical side of things, but there's going to be a huge emotional side of it, isn't there, from us as well? Yeah, it is. I mean...

I get asked a lot, you know, what's the biggest game? Is it Man United? Which games do you want to win the most? And it's still the derby for me. I think it's just because, you know, we live around each other and we see each other all the time. Whereas if you lose to another opponent...

you know, you're very unlikely to encounter the fans of that club. Although obviously the world's changed and you can see this online and it play out a lot more. But I think for me, the Derby was just always the big game really. So no matter where the two teams are in the league, it always feels like there's an edge there.

But for this one, you know, there's a lot at stake. There's more at stake this time, I think. There'll be even more at stake had Everton not been on the run that they've been on in the league. You know, if they were a bit closer to the relegation zone, because I do think that they're safe now. But they don't want that. They don't want the last game at Goodison Park to end in defeat. The fans don't. I've spoken to a couple of, you know, season ticket holders at Goodison and I can sense their...

nervousness around the game so it's it's a really really really big one i think i had a discussion with somebody about this last night and i think it's it's probably the biggest derby maybe maybe since 2012 fa cup semi-final is that fair to say which liverpool ends up winning and it was a sort of a classic everton performance really because everton batted liverpool the first half for one nil up and then just became very nervous and let liverpool back in and

Moyes didn't know how to handle that game, did he? He didn't, no, he didn't. That wasn't part of the battle plan, go and won the lot. Yeah, it was a big opportunity for Everton at that time because Liverpool weren't doing well in the league.

I'd have to go and check the league table, but Everton were doing all right, weren't they, around that period with Moyes? And it just sort of felt like if they can get that win and go and get to the final, it's going to psychologically be a big thing for them and obviously a bad thing for Liverpool. But they couldn't see it through. And because it meant a cup final appearance, you know, it took on extra significance. So sadly since then, you know, the both teams have rarely been...

sort of challenging each other at the top end of the table, which has meant that it's often been, well, Liverpool are expected to win. It's still a tough game, whereas this time, you know, because of the historical significance, because Liverpool are so well-primed to go and win the league, the Evertonians will want to put a big dent in that. And, you know, they love nothing more really than, you know, you lost the league at Goodison Park. I mean, Evertonians might tell me,

2018-19 that was the last place Liverpool dropped points wasn't it at Goodison Park and a 0-0 draw so maybe that one might be that might be considered a you know one of the pivotal games in the season but I actually do think this is not me being you know sort of playing down expectation at all but I don't think a draw would be the worst result for Liverpool but

Providing he followed that up with a good win at the weekend. You seem to have a lot of Evertonian mates, eh? And you seem to be soft on Evertonians saying that. Like on Everton saying that draw of a two. No, no, I say no!

I bet you agree with me, James. On what? A point's not good enough. We want three. Well, I definitely want three. Although I must admit, I am with Simon on the basis that if Liverpool get a point at Goodison to go seven points clear in the middle of February, that isn't a terrible position to be in. So I think there does need to be a degree of perspective there.

to... They appear to defeat us. But again, like, as we said, but if you go there and you win, I tell you what, nobody's going to be mentioned in the P word, are they? No, not at all. Do you think Moyes' return, Si, will... How much of an impact do you think it'll have? Hmm.

Yeah, it's a good question. Because obviously Sean Tide won, didn't he, against Liverpool last year. So he has got experience of doing it. One thing I was going to say for listeners that can't see Tony's face, I think Arne Slott should send Tony into the dressing room to give them a kick up the bum when he's talking about Everton. But yeah, the Moyes factor, that's a difficult one to answer.

Again, my Everton mates, Tony. They're not excited, really. They weren't excited about the appointment, but they understood it. You know, his record against Liverpool is okay. You know, he gave Liverpool... He upset Liverpool at times, but...

you know he gave Liverpool a bloody nose at times I would say after that period of Julien Moyes the second half for the the noughties I hate that term Moyes was a difficult opponent for Rafa Benitez wasn't he at times very tough games so there's that sort of memory that I have of him I think he's a he's obviously won the Europa Conference League with West Ham which was a huge moment for him and a huge should have been considered a should be considered a huge moment for West Ham but

But the bottom line is I just always back and inform Liverpool against an Everton team that's sort of struggling despite having some decent form themselves. I just think, as James said earlier, if Liverpool's key players, Van Dijk, Salah,

the goalkeeper turn up, I think it could be quite difficult for Everton to stop them really because it's difficult for any team to stop them. The big thing for Everton is, am I right in saying Dominic Carver-Lewin's out still with injury? I think when he plays for Everton and plays well against Liverpool, he just gives them much, much more of a chance. He's a big physical presence. He can drag defenders around. He can make it the sort of game that Liverpool don't want it to be.

I think the replacement that they've got can't do that. You know, Beto is a player that runs the channels. Despite him being, you know, a tall centre forward, he's not a particularly physical one. So I think him not playing it, it reduces Everton's chances of coming away with a victory. Yeah. James, how do you see the team? It's going to be as strong as you can get really, isn't it?

Yeah, I don't think there's too many decisions for him really because I think nobody put their hand up at Home Park on Sunday, did they? So I think Alisson obviously comes back. Alexander-Arnold, I understand, is still touch and go. I wonder whether because of the five games in the space of 15 days, I'm not sure a Merseyside derby at Goodison is a place to be gambling with anyone's fitness.

And I thought the fact that Bradley wasn't involved at all on Sunday kind of showed that feeling of maybe that Trent won't be ready in time. So I think that's, you know, I think probably Bradley right back. Canate and Van Dijk obviously goes without saying. And we're waiting to find out the extent of Gomez's issue, which that was a sad sight seeing him go off early on on Sunday. Robertson at left back, I think is an absolute no brainer after what Simakas served up.

Midfield three pick themselves, don't they? They are so good as a unit. Gravenberg and Zabozlai and McAllister are

And then Salah one side, Gagpo on the other. And then, as I said before, I think you've probably got to go with Nunes as the nine. You know, I didn't think Jota didn't really make any impact on that game. I think I would worry. I know Diaz is the false nine has worked at times, but I'm not sure Everton away is the right one for Diaz. I think he would get swallowed up a little bit. I think you want a focal point and at times...

you will need someone to hold it up and occupy defenders and despite some of the inconsistencies in Nunes' game I still think he is he's your best bet I think for a game like Wednesday night Definitely Definitely Well Si will you be making one last visit to

Goodison Park well I haven't got a ticket yet no so if anybody wants to furnish me with one then sort me out you know didn't you go undercover in the Gladys Street was that last season or the year before no it was the year before one that was the last time I went actually to Goodison Park so if that's my last memory then it's a you know it's a good one I should say the last time I went to Goodison Park you know as a spectator but yeah I went all hooded up erm

And yeah, I think two Liverpool goals right in front of me had to be very quiet in my reactions. I'm sure Tony wouldn't have been as successful as me. But to be fair, my good Everton mates, Tony, came for the pint at half-time, even with Liverpool leading. Although I think Everton had scored by half-time. But yeah, it was 4-1 at Goodson Park. Yeah.

there's no better place I would say to win a match 4-1 yeah I've seen a few memorable ones there I mean obviously the 5-0 in rush game that was a classic but probably my favourite was back in 1985 when they were the two best teams in Europe Liverpool were 3-0 up by half time Everton come back like a storm in the second half and it's ended 3-2 Warwick game well

I hope it's more comfortable. I hope it's more like the 5-0 on Wednesday night. 4-1 would do me, but it'll be 3-0.

Vital points. You know, I think given... We've got to be confident given the evidence state, despite the emotion and despite the significance of the game, this is one we have to win. And that's about it from Walk On, your Liverpool podcast brought to you by The Athletic. Thanks to James and Simon for joining me and you for listening. We'll be back on Thursday and hopefully we'll be talking about a performance that sends the Goodison Derby into history again.

with hordes of crying blues. We'll catch you then. The Athletic FC Podcast Network.