Breakthrough made in Salah & van Dijk contract talks
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The Athletic FC Podcast Network. All right, Reds, Tony Evans here with Walk On, your Liverpool podcast from The Athletic. I'm here with James Pearce and Simon Hughes. Well, there's plenty to talk about today, not least the futures of Virgil van Dijk and Mohamed Salah. We'll also look ahead towards Sunday's game with West Ham United. But first, let's have your three words. Well, say...

Well, news about Salah. Apparently you've written a book about him. That's up for an award. A Pulitzer of all things. I call it Jason Salah. I'm not going to deny any of those claims, Tony. It's not up for a Pulitzer though. It's not up for a Pulitzer. But you know what? While this was all unraveling last night,

I was just about to go into the theatre. So my three words are red or dead. Hey, you've got to go and see Red or Dead. It's absolutely amazing. You know, I loved it. Oh, so good. Honestly, I mean, I know the book did divide opinion. I love the book, but it wasn't for everybody. But I think if you want to know about Bill Shankly and his impact on Liverpool, it's

It's just a great two hours which captures him as a personality and the way people felt about him. You know what? It was a masterpiece, Tony. Brilliant. Oh, brilliant. Superb. I'm glad you did clarify it because Red or Dead sounds to me as if you might have been making threats against Van Dyke or Salah. James, your three words.

I'll go for Mo gets dough. Mo gets dough. Let's see what you're seeing. Sean Hamlet, Running on Fumes, Ray Nash, Let's Finish This, Andrew Bell, Jones for Shabazzlay, and Jamie Lovett, Get Contracts Done. To join our community of listeners on Facebook, just search Walk On Podcast and join the group.

Well, that's a place to start. Hopefully we'll never have to do contract weekly again, James. Anyway, come on, fill us in. I can see it already. It'll be Canate every week next season, won't it? Before we start, right, so their contract is in theory up in 2027. So should they not be negotiating for that contract by now? Well, can we hold off till next week on that? But yeah, it is...

It is good news. It's not a surprise. I think we've talked about it a lot, haven't we, about how there was still a big degree of confidence, certainly internally at Liverpool, that this was the way that things would pan out with Salah and Van Dijk, that obviously it's been a long, long drawn out process. And out of the three, it's been so clear, hasn't it, for so long that

Trent Alexander-Arnold was the kind of exception because I think of his age and the fact he had Real Madrid actively pursuing him, that was always going to be a lot more difficult for Richard Hughes, the sporting director, to try and ensure that he stayed put. But yeah, I think the fact now there has been a breakthrough in these discussions with both the representatives of Salah and Van Dijk, it's a big positive because I think every Liverpool fan feared

what the reality would look like if either of them left this summer? Because how do you... Liverpool would have essentially been faced with trying to replace the irreplaceable. Si, I mean, we're getting on for mid-April now and this is an update, it's not contract signed. But are you approaching it with significantly more confidence now? Yeah, well, as James says, sort of...

You can always read between the lines around the noise from, I hate this word, the camps. So whether that be the Salah or Van Dijk side or the Liverpool side. And things have gone quite quiet, really. Which always says to me, when things are quiet, people are happy. Or happier, shall we say. Which certainly wasn't the case from Salah's perspective around November, December time. So I think it's good news. I think...

For me, Van Dijk, there is still no better centred half around. People might say his age, but I do think that he's a different case because of the way his career's gone, mainly. You know, he started at the top level much later than other players, really. And I think he's got a bit... There's no signs to me that he's on the wane whatsoever. OK, he's had a couple of difficult games, but...

you know, sometimes form does come into it. I don't think it's down to any weakness. I just think he hasn't played particularly well in the players he's been playing against. I've played well. It's as simple as that. Well, yeah. And given that, like, you know, he'll have had the contract on his mind and given that you don't want to get injured in situations like this. I think these things can play a part, but it doesn't concern me in the long term. I think two years, you know, it's a safe bet, really. And, you know, we still don't know the details of the contracts, do we? But,

I'd be surprised if Liverpool have committed themselves to something that hamstrings themselves in other areas where they need to improve. We all know, you know, Liverpool haven't spent a great deal of money the last few windows, particularly last summer. So this summer was always going to be a big summer regardless. But people keep forgetting, if you let Van Dijk and Salah go, you've got even more work to do, you know. So...

Too much change at once is never good in football, I think. These are two players for me who set the standards at Liverpool in different ways. You've got a captain in Van Dijk who's very vocal, is a proper leader in the dressing room, loves being the captain of Liverpool, takes that responsibility so seriously. And then you've got Salah who...

On the training ground, everybody gravitates towards, you know, because of the way he handles himself, because of his commitments to himself. I just think there are a few, you know, maybe it's unfair, but there are a few footballers now, particularly with age, who have this sort of positive influence, I think, on dressing rooms and the people around them. And Salah certainly seems to be mature on that side as well. I think he's sort of realised and he can do more than just look after himself, you know, from what I hear from

from the training ground. So I think it's really good news. I understand the age, but it's two years. I just think it's a safe enough bet. I just don't see what the concern would be over two years. Three years, I'd say, well, there is a risk attached to that, but two years, I would say no. James, what does this mean for Trent, do you think? Well, I don't think it really means anything in terms of...

his position. I think obviously at the minute, as you said, there's nothing official yet. It'll be interesting to see when there is an announcement and how Liverpool handle that because obviously all the way through the process, there's been this kind of, they've been wary of the fact that you're dealing with three very high profile players

contract situations surrounding what your captain your vice captain and your top scorer at the same time and not wanting to provide any distractions and obviously there's still a Premier League title to be won despite the commanding lead there is at the top

that's the interesting thing for me is in terms of how do they go about announcing it and dealing with the, you know, the, that kind of the PR side of, of it, if you like with Trent, I mean, as nothing has changed with Trent in so much as,

He is expected to sign for Real Madrid this summer. We've talked about that numerous times and written about it. I just think with his age and the fact that there's been this sustained pursuit of him from the Spanish club, that was always going to be the most difficult one of the three for Richard Hughes to try and resolve positively.

Yeah, I mean, and Si, you wouldn't think, I mean, they're going to have to commit a substantial amount of money to the contracts for the wages of Salah and Van Dijk. You wouldn't think they'd be in a position to pay three big names like this. Although, you know, when we talked about it the other week, you know, it seems Liverpool have plenty of spare cash at the moment. I mean, I suppose the player who ordinarily would be due the biggest jump

in in wages would be Trent you know out of the three it's generally accepted in football that once you get to the age of 30 you know you're not going to earn quite as much because there's no residual well there's no possibility fewer lesser possibility of a salon fee so I get the sense with Trent it's not about money really it's about a different experience

which changes things altogether. Because I'm not sure... I mean, Salah's the top scorer, the player you can ordinarily hang your hat on, was the highest paid player at the club. Van Dijk is probably due a pay bump because he's now the captain. So his status...

within the framework of the club has grown since his last contract. So I think there could be that argument on his side. Meanwhile, Trent is obviously a few years older. He's the vice-captain, so he would be due... If he were given more responsibility in any work, in any field, you can justifiably ask for more money. But then I think also because of his age, you could ask for even more money. But the Real Madrid thing...

is not just about money. I think it's about playing for Real Madrid, the wider context of where that would leave his reputation in the game, different experiences being at Liverpool all his life. So I think it's not just one thing. I think why Trent Alexander-Arnold has come to this point. But Liverpool haven't spent huge sums of money. They spent a very small sum of money last summer,

And let's not forget, you know, the summer before, they went from a position where they made a club record fee for Moises Caicedo, which obviously that deal didn't go through and he signed with Aruendo. So there was money then, there was more money around then to play with, evidently.

in a season when they were going into the Europa League. And they've since obviously done well in the Champions League and everything else. But I don't know how they allocate the funds as well. This is the thing. It'd be interesting to know that, how they sort of cordon off what money goes where according to who makes it and how it's made. Because Arne Slott earns all that money by doing well in the Champions League, okay, they didn't get to the quarterfinals, but he still earns a fair few quid because of the amount of wins that they got.

Does that just go into the playing budget or does that get spread across elsewhere? Maybe that's one for Chris Weatherspoon when we get him back on at some point. James, David Dornstein's reporting that the two-year deal's on the table and they're close to signing. Have you any thoughts about timing here?

No, and I think that's going to be the interesting thing, isn't it? Whether it is imminent and you almost use it as kind of the positivity and the bounce to kind of get everyone going ahead of a home game against West Ham on Sunday. Or does it make more sense, especially in the context of Alexander-Arnold, if you think...

Will they hold off till the back end of the season when the title is already done and dusted? So, yeah, at the minute, no guidance on timings on this. But, yeah, it definitely is significant. I mean, we talked about it earlier on. I thought, you know, reading between the lines, you could tell that something had shifted with the way that Van Dijk spoke after the game at Fulham because...

You know, he's kept his cards very close to his chest throughout this process. And it was only, what, three weeks ago that I think it was after the Champions League exit at the hands of PSG. He said, if anyone tells you they know where I'm going to be playing next season, they're lying to your face, was his quote. He said, I have no idea myself. So how could anyone else know?

Yet on last Sunday at Craven Cottage, he said, yes, there's been progress. Everyone knows how much I love this club. So it was definitely the strongest indication. Yeah, of course, Salah's approach to this has been different. Simon touched on it earlier, didn't he? I think back to that game away at Southampton in November when, you know, actively, clearly wanted to get something off his chest and

And which was interesting, especially in the context that he barely ever speaks to the English written media when he said I was probably more out than in. And he said that he hadn't had an offer. And it's been various kind of, I think, to Sky the following month. He said, you know, there's been no progress whatsoever. He's been quite kind of combative at times, you know, and I think at times used.

used the kind of media to crank up the pressure on the club in a way that Van Dijk hasn't but ultimately both both sagas are reaching the the same conclusion and um yeah obviously FSG we know you know they they they are reluctant to dish out big extensions to players in the twilight years of their career and

But for me, this is just a case of common sense prevailing because when you look at what Liverpool need to do this summer, they need a new left back, a new right back, a centre half, reinforcements in midfield, I'd say, to alleviate the burden on Gravenberg and a new number nine.

The last thing they needed to do was to also be in the market for a new Virgil van Dijk and a new Mohamed Salah. Well, that's where it makes sense to sign them for me, Si, because if you would have lost these two players, then effectively the spine of the team's gone and you need to reinforce elsewhere. And also the suggestion was that neither of them were looking for a pay rise. They were just looking to stay. Yeah.

Well, that's the thing. It's the whole culture of the dressing room as well. You know, you're removing two players who play a big, big role in that whilst you're trying to recollaborate other areas of the team. So for me, you might as well just say, well, next season, you'd be very lucky if you got rid of your senior players and other key players and it all just clicked. You'd be very, very lucky.

So I think it's a sensible move, really. Whether it proves to be the last contract they sign, I don't know. But I think it gives Liverpool a better chance of being a better football team in the next two seasons. Salah, you might say, well, Salah, you know,

Salah might not do quite as well next season on the pitch and oh it's been a waste of money you know they shouldn't have committed but you you cannot measure the impact that he has off the pitch as well same with Van Dijk you know these I mean it's it's maybe it's a bad comparison but he's a

continuously renew James Milner's contracts year on year. He arrived at the club as one of the highest paid players when he arrived. But obviously since then, Liverpool's progress meant that, you know, Alisson, Van Dijk, Salah, Mane, all these players ended up earning more money than him. So the money situation is slightly different. But you cannot say that Liverpool did not benefit from that sort of figure, you know, in the dressing room, person who drives standards week on week. And these are the sorts of things that, you know, the data team,

They will find hard to measure. Yeah. No, the impact these players have on other players. The intangibles of the Americans. Exactly, exactly, exactly. So I think, you know, as you said, Tony, it would have been too much to do at once. I think it works for both parties, Liverpool and the players. Gives them a chance, you know, to keep this going. You know, gives Liverpool, most importantly, on the pitch, I would say a good chance of winning.

of improving next season? I was going to say that I think just picking up what Simon said there about it works for both parties. I think that's an important part of it because obviously we talk a lot about whether it makes sense for the club in terms of the financial outlay to two players who are at the back end of their careers. But I think also if you're Salah and Van Dijk, again, I just think

of course they would have surveyed what options they've got going into this summer, but where are they going to be adored like they are at Anfield? You know, where, you know, when, when, when you, when you think about Van Dyck,

and what he's got, you know, how proud he is to captain Liverpool. You know, I don't think anyone is in doubt what that means to him. It was like, was he really ready to walk away from that? And the same with Salah. For all the talk about, you know, the Saudi Pro League, you know, I think it had been clear for some time that,

He's such a competitive animal, isn't he? He absolutely loves breaking records. Was he the third highest goal scorer in Liverpool's histories? He keeps on jumping over iconic names in the Premier League all-time list. He wasn't ready to go into almost semi-retirement and put his feet up over in Saudi. So, yeah, I just think this...

It just works for everyone, I think. I think as much as it makes sense for Liverpool to keep them, it was like, if you were those two players, why would you walk away from what you've got currently? Again, I agree completely. And so...

To be perfectly bloody, Barry, from a club's point of view, you sign them for two years. Well, if things are not going great, the Saudis will still want Salah next year. You know, Virgil will have some sort of sell-on value, maybe to America. Even the Saudis will be involved. And that's in worst-case scenarios when things go really badly. Exactly, exactly. I think...

And Richard Hughes has had a lot of criticism for how long this has taken. And I can understand why people are nervous about it. A fella who's new to the job, who inherited this situation, but it's taken time. And I think he's been really fortunate how well it's gone on the pitch at this time. Because nobody expected Liverpool to be winning the league. But I think...

He'll have probably looked at the situation and known that the options on the other side, they don't have a huge number of options. And as you said, I don't think Saudi's interest in Salah is ever going to go away because of who he is and where he's from and what that will mean to that region. And also because of his ability. So even if in a year's time and it's not working, I do think there are exit routes for both parties as well.

I don't see the same situation happening with Van Dijk. I think he's a much lesser risk option, if I'm being honest, because of the position that he plays for the reasons that I mentioned earlier. But that's not to say, Sal, this is a risky deal by Liverpool. I don't see it. I think anything three years or above, you would say, well, yeah, the club's probably maybe overstretching itself. But ultimately, without knowing the details of the contract yet, as you said earlier, Tony, they were not looking for...

I know from the Salah side that he felt that he was remunerated fairly over the last few years. He had no complaints about the pay that he was on. And I don't think he's done... There's nothing that he's done on the pitch throughout that period that's made you think he should be earning less, put it that way. So it'd be interesting to see the details of that. I can't imagine Liverpool have overextended themselves even further. I'd be surprised if they have.

Because I think in the meantime, one thing that has changed, you know, football never stops, does it? In the meantime, you've got players like Erling Haaland signing 10-year contracts on astronomical sums of money. Now, I'm not saying that Salah would be expecting that sort of figure because...

you know, Harland's a much younger player than him and Salah was never going to sign the length of the terms. But every time somebody else's contract goes up in football, I can guarantee agents, everybody else is trying to find out how much that money that player is on and judging where their own client is at, at their own club and making sort of estimations about what they should be earning accordingly. So all these things are a play really, which creates complications, um,

But the bottom line is if Liverpool ends up winning the league, it hasn't proven too much of a distraction. Some people might say, well, it's motivated the players, you know, this feeling of uncertainty at certain points of the season. It's driven them to say, you know, almost, you know, f*** you, you know, I'm better than this team.

Oh, potty mouth music again. He's going to get us taken off the airwaves, isn't he? It was a long answer, Sony, so I wanted to make sure people were still listening.

I think, just picking up on something that Simon said, I think their availability as well has made the case to keep hold of them absolutely compelling. Not just their performances, but the fact that neither of them miss games, do they? No, that's true. I saw a stat the other day that

It's Van Dijk, Salah and Gravenberg are the three players who have started every single Premier League game this season. And the last time you had three outfield players who were still ever present in the top flight at this stage of a season was 1987-88, when in fact it was four. It was John Barnes, Alan Hansen, Steve McMahon and Steve Nicol. So that kind of shows how rare it is. And I think that is obviously...

When you were drawing up a list of concerns, you'd think about, well, how durable are they? Are they showing signs of wear and tear? But they're both absolute machines, aren't they, physically, in terms of the way that they lead their lives?

the professionalism so I think that as well over the course of the season will surely have played a big part in the decision to say yeah we can't let either of these two walk out the door come there

Yeah, definitely. And the other thing is, it gives time for succession plans, doesn't it? Because, you know, I mean, if they leave, the void is just too massive. Exactly. I think now is now the time, if they're not doing it already, I'm sure they are, to really be thinking about this. And it gives Liverpool a bit of breathing space to make the right decisions, which are right for the club. You know, that's how Liverpool, this is what it all boils down to, you know, Liverpool through the 60s, 70s, 80s,

The recruitment was all based around succession planning and getting the players in and out at the right times. I understand the debate about Salah around the age and everything else. I think it's a fair debate. But it just doesn't mean that because he's a certain age that, see you later. It just doesn't. Football is not as simple as that. You've got to look at all the things that we've spoken about.

And then try and assess the people who are working for the club, the meaning for these people inside the club. I think now, we thought Federico Chiesa was going to be Salah's successor or put pressure on him. It'll be really interesting to see what they do with him. Because I would like to see a bit more of him, I think, to make a fair judgment. Maybe Arnaz Locke thinks he's not good enough in training. I don't know. But...

I think now they've got to start that process. It begins in earnest. I'm not saying, you know, that they've got to go out and spend 60 million on a player that's going to succeed Salah this summer, but it gives them the space to make the decision about when they strike for the players that they want. Well, I mean, you know, you're never going to replace a player like Salah in that sense. You've got to do it by platoon, really. You've got to get different... Van Dijk is a different issue in the sense that

You do need a strong centre-half there and you need a leader, you need someone who's vocal. And, I mean, we live in an age where there are not enough vocal players who command the people around them. So, I mean, I think that is an area where they've got to be, you know, sort of particularly get a certain sort of player. MUSIC

We've spoken about him before to Richard Hughes, really. He's taken a lot of unfair stick, James, because he inherited a problem that was none of us making. He's obviously played a part in these negotiations, and this summer is going to be the big test of him. But for me, he seems to have done okay so far. Certainly, he seems to have been a positive acquisition.

Yeah, I'd say so. Yeah, certainly when you speak to people around the club, they have a lot of good things to say about the impact he's had and the working environment and the kind of, I'd say, greater collaboration between different departments, you know, various changes that have been put in place. And I think a lot of his work has been geared towards

you know, kind of restructuring things. You think of the recruitment department in particular, there's been a fair amount of change, hasn't there? You had like obviously Dave Fallows, who was long serving left around Christmas time. He's made changes to the scouting network. So yeah, I never really understood the criticism on,

of him as if like you know like obviously people use Zubamendi didn't they as a stick to beat him with when it's like well it's not an awful lot you can do if if a fella says he wants to sign for you and then his boyhood club crank up the pressure and make it

make it incredibly difficult for him to be able to leave to the point where he would essentially have to force it through and then he backtracks. You know, I don't really, I never really understood the criticism then because it was like, well, what was he supposed to do differently? And then regarding... James, will they be back for Zubermenzi this summer?

I'd be surprised. I mean, all the noise has been that he's going to end up at Arsenal and I've not heard anything to the contrary on that one. Well, he does love the mountains in North London, doesn't he? Exactly. Exactly. You know, Muswell Hill. He can stand at the top of Muswell Hill and he can look over that vista and think, oh,

I feel like I'm in the bus country again. But yeah, this summer is clearly going to be, you know, a pivotal one, isn't it? I think we all, we've known for a long time that regardless of what Liverpool won this season,

you know, this team is going to have to evolve. There was very little change last summer. You know, Slott and Hughes came in and effectively decided that, you know, no, we're going to, we're happy with what we got. It's a clean slate. You give everyone the opportunity to prove themselves. And then, but obviously over the course of this season with, you know, you've obviously had the Trent situation where it's looked increasingly clear that he would be moving on.

and other areas of the squad that at times you thought, yeah, they need more depth there. That, yeah, it's going to be a busy summer for Richard Hughes, but...

But if, as expected now, he goes into it, having wrapped up new deals for Salah and Van Dijk, it's a decent platform to build on. Yes, and just quickly, because we've got to get to West Ham before we finish. But in the past, we've seen, you know, Fenway own Liverpool not building from a position of strength when they've won leagues and they've won Champions Leagues. This has got to change this summer. Yes. I think back to summer 2019,

The signings were, this is after becoming the Champions League winners, Harvey Elliott, Sev Van Den Berg and Adrian the goalkeeper. Now, each of those players along the way, well, certainly two of the players along the way, have played roles within Liverpool's success, I suppose. But I just think, you know, Liverpool win the league, they become a very attractive team.

to go and join again. You know, you can't overstate the importance of that. You know, a successful team, people want to join and want to be a part of it. So I thought that was a misstep, even though Liverpool won the league the next season, you know, because we then saw the season after, okay, you had the whole context around the pandemic, which means that you can't be definitive about what Liverpool's problems were to some degree. But yeah,

It was quite clear to me that they could have seen ahead to some of these players reaching certain ages two years along the line, which was going to cause problems for them, potentially. Maybe this should allocate someone on the data team to check birthdays in the future. Maybe, maybe. But I think they've got to go and be ambitious this summer. The bottom line is, if FSC want to...

want to increase the value of the club. Well, the value of the club is going to increase the more successful it is. And you don't always have to, I'm not saying they should be spending tons and tons of cash, but they certainly have to think about who they're signing and capitalise on moments of opportunity, which they haven't done in the past.

For example, when they went close to winning the league in 2014, they saw the best player, spent all that money on five or six players, some of whom didn't work out whatsoever. So at moments of opportunity...

They haven't always made the right decisions, I think, over the last 15 years. They tended to be better when it's been building slowly, one, two players each summer. When there's been big decisions to be made across one summer, they haven't always got it right. And this feels a little bit like that 2014 summer where it feels like there's quite a bit of surgery that needs to be done to that team and that squad to keep it competitive over a longer period of time.

James, before we get to West Ham, you reported this week that Jürgen Klopp's heading back to Merseyside next month.

He is, yeah. It will be his first kind of official duty as the LFC Foundation's honorary ambassador, a role he took on shortly after that emotional goodbye that he had at Anfield last May. So, yeah, he's going to be the guest speaker, guest of honour at their gala ball in Liverpool's Anglican Cathedral Friday, May the 23rd. And, yeah, no confirmation as of yet whether he will stick around for...

of course the final game of the season is against Crystal Palace two days later on that Sunday and then the parade on the Monday I know he was speaking at a charity event in South Africa a few weeks back when he did talk about potentially being on the streets of the city for the parade on Monday May the 26th but

you know, there's an open invitation there from Arna Slot. I understand him and Klopp have been in regular contact over messages over the course of the season with Slot. I think he invited him to the Man City and Real Madrid home games. In particular, he wasn't able to make them. Of course, I think he went on a fair few holidays before Christmas and then since January he's been busy. As many holidays as Simon Hughes? No, no, don't be silly. Not as many as Judith Chalmers himself. Do you want me to pull out the data around this, James?

But yeah, and then, yeah, of course, since January, he's been busy in that new role of head of global soccer for Red Bull. But yeah, he's guaranteed some reception, isn't he, when he comes back to Liverpool that weekend? I think in terms of not confirming whether he'll be at the Crystal Palace game tomorrow,

and anything beyond the gala ball, I think a lot of it, he'll be waiting to see just how things pan out with the latter stage of the season and Liverpool winning the title because the last thing that Jurgen Klopp would want to do would be to steal anyone's thunder or provide any kind of distraction. Yeah, I mean, Julien in Istanbul, so you know the term. Going into the dressing room. But Klopp deserves...

He deserves to be a part of it, doesn't he? You know, after not getting his own celebration. He does. I think everybody does, really. You know, I spent much of my childhood trying to wonder, or wondering, should I say, how Anfield and Liverpool would respond to winning the league. And for some reason, you always get it in your head, don't you? It's going to happen at Anfield. That moment, the referee blows the final whistle and the whole stadium erupts.

you know, when the, when the trophy comes along and they get to, they get to lift it. Obviously the circumstances with which Liverpool won the title in 2020, nobody could have predicted. And it's a shame because, because of the story around Klopp, because of where he took them from and to, it merited that sort of, um,

That ceremony between the fans, the manager and the players, which we just never got. So, you know, he has played a role in this team. He restructured the midfield, didn't he? Two summers ago, he was pretty much in charge of signing those players. As you said, there's the sort of the Julio thing. I can't imagine...

to give listeners an idea of what we're talking about when Liverpool won the Champions League in 2005 it's a famous story about Gerard Hulé the previous manager going into the dressing room afterwards and sort of joining in the celebrations reminding everybody of his role within the development of this team he got them into the Champions League the year before and it did rub up some of the current staff the wrong way famously but obviously I was at the Red or Dead show last night and the

A big part of the Bill Shankly story was how his exit was handled and how people treated him after his departure, despite everything that he's achieved. And he was sort of excommunicated by Liverpool. He was such a big character and personality. The club decided that they couldn't have him around. Different situation with Klopp, whereby, you know, when he left Liverpool, he left Formby, spending a lot of time in South Africa. So he hasn't been this sort of overbearing presence at the club yet.

But, you know, I think he deserves to join in the celebrations because, you know, of the role that he's had over the last, well, certainly up until last year and the scale of the task that he had, that he inherited was enormous. You know, without Klopp putting in that, giving that belief back, giving Liverpool that status back, it would have been a lot harder for Arne Slott to win the league this season, I would say.

Definitely, definitely. And just to, again, to give a bit of context, Shankly, after he resigned, still turned up for training every day. And so the players didn't know who to turn to. Hello, boss. That was the thing. Hello, boss. He'd taken training, you know, and it just ended up, you know, Bob Paisley had begged him to stay, wanted him to stay, but Paisley realised this cannot continue because my authority is being undermined by a fella who's not even picking the team, you know.

Yeah, yeah. And James, talking about picking the team, who are we going to see against West Ham? You know, West Ham, they've been, you know, I think they've lost like 700 times at Anfield and only won 170, you know.

Yeah, you're right. I was looking at the stats, actually. Their record is abysmal, isn't it? I think they've won one of the last 57 visits to Anfield. Obviously, Liverpool have already beaten them 5-1 and 5-0 already this season. Apparently, no club has ever stuck five or more past the same Premier League team three times in a season.

Although I'd take a scrappy 1-0 win on Sunday. Team-wise, I hope we'll see Conor Bradley start. I think his cameo at Craven Cottage was one of the few positives on a

pretty bleak afternoon and I think as much as the Curtis Jones right back experiment worked against Everton it didn't against Fulham and I think we saw in that final 20-25 minutes the value of having a specialist right back in that role be interesting to see whether he does find room for Curtis Jones in his midfield maybe

you know Zabozlai I think his form has dipped a bit maybe we'll see Jones in that role Harvey Elliott I think has certainly been hard done by at times not to have featured more you know will he get his first Premier League start of the season more often than not he's made an impact when he has been given opportunities off the bench and then

Probably a bit of a dilemma for Swat at the top end of the pitch. Jota hasn't, I thought against Fulham he didn't really kick on as you hoped he would do from ending his goal drought against Everton. Diaz you'd imagine would be nailed on to come back into the starting line-up. He improved Liverpool when he came on in the second half. So I guess it's just a case of whether he plays Diaz off the left in place of Gagpoel or whether he plays Diaz through the centre.

Can I just finish the part on it on a quite a funny story? So on the 29th of August 2015, do you know what happened on that day?

Not our fans. Okay, so... I have to consult me diary. We're talking about the dying embers of the Brendan Rodgers era. Yeah, so... Also, I got married on that day, right? That was my Wednesday. Always make it about you. Well, it's quite a funny story. So we just had the ceremony and all that, and a mate of mine who's a blue, I could see him sniggering in the corner, and he sort of slithers over...

And he nudges me and he goes, do you know how yous are getting on today? Liverpool were playing West Ham. They've never lost to West Ham in about 50, 60 years at Anfield. Yous are losing 3-0. And he absolutely was delighted to tell me. I just got married, honestly.

Literally, he got married and Liverpool got absolutely battered by West Ham and Anfield on the same day. I do remember that game. Thank you, Brendan. Yeah, that was remarkably bad, wasn't it? Yeah.

Well, you know what? That's not the way we want to end this pod. We go back, and I said this on the pod a couple of weeks ago. Bill Shankly, Tottenham West Ham. Great club, great people, play great football. Four points. Two points to win then. And that's what we'll be looking for. We'll be looking for three points, obviously. And it will be a perfect...

Way to end a good news week by beating West Ham at Anfield. So that's it from Walk On, your Liverpool podcast brought to you by The Athletic. Thanks to James and Simon for joining me and you two for listening. We'll be back next week. We'll see you then. The Athletic FC Podcast Network.