Spurs go Dutch special!
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The Athletic. Hello everybody and welcome once again to The View from the Lane, a multi-award winning Tottenham Hotspur podcast from The Athletic. Joining me, Danny Kelly, James Moore and Jack Pitbrook from The Athletic as

As we look ahead to Spurs beginning their knockout European journey tomorrow. Obviously, we're playing a Dutch team, so we'll be having a kind of Dutch special. We're going to be reflecting on three games in the past, one of them in the dim and distant past against Dutch teams and what they meant and what fun and otherwise, because they weren't all good and what they meant. We'll also be hearing from Alex Zonneveld, Dutch football expert. He'll take us through what we can expect from AZ Alkmaar.

As I say, we thought that we'd start, take a trip, a nostalgic trip, if you like, and hop on the Vibes rollercoaster and revisit three famous times that Spurs have faced Dutch opposition. Now, for reasons of seniority, I'll go first. And I'm going to talk about Spurs playing against Feyenoord. And in some ways, I want to talk about the game between Feyenoord in the early 80s, where Glenn Hoddle, an

Announcing himself to the world stage, Jack. Outclassed an ageing Johan Cruyff. But I'm going to go way back to a game against Feyenoord. I wish it was the one in the early 80s. Was it 83-84? Where Glenn Hoddle outclassed the ageing Johan Cruyff. But in fact, I'm going to go back. Forgive me, some of you. Many of you wouldn't have been born then. I want to go back to the two-legged final of the UEFA Cup in 1974.

So Spurs get to the final of the Europa League. They've had an amazing, I mean, it's called the UEFA Cup then, isn't it? An amazing run, 29 goals for and eight against. They beat, on aggregate, they beat Grasshoppers 9-2, Aberdeen 5-2, Tbilisi 6-2, Cologne 5-1, and Lokomotiv Leipzig 4-1 in the semi-final. And so we were going to play Feyenoord. Now, of course, cut to my personal life, and...

I'm 17 years of age. I'm in the lower sixth at school, I think. I've just turned 17. I'm a skinny and rather, you know, pretty kind of leery, but also not very worldly 17-year-old. Myself and my friend Michael, sadly no longer with us, for reasons I'll never get into our heads, decided we would try and go to the second game in Holland. Now, bear in mind, we've got no tickets. We have no money.

We have no accommodation booked, and I don't own a passport. I've been back and forth to Ireland because of the common travel area. You don't need a passport. And in my mind, we just joined something called a common market because I don't need a passport to go to Holland. All we had, really, of any advantage was the fact that my father was a railman. So I had a little piece of cardboard, about three inches by two, my name on it, no photo ID, which allowed me free travel in the United Kingdom and Ireland.

two or three times a year abroad. And I could also buy the ticket for him free because you're allowed to take one person with you. So we had the tickets and off we get on a train, as I recall, and

and it's full of Spurs fans. They're pretty boisterous. There's a lot of drinking going on, and I remember sitting, nursing my can of whatever it is I was drinking, thinking, oh, this is all a bit... People are swearing and stuff. It just wasn't the way I was used to the world being. And the great idea of going to Holland seemed less and less...

like the great idea it originally seemed. And then there was a rumour that the train was on fire, that someone had set fire to one of the other carriages. This came via other drunk people moving back and forth through the train. And I really started to worry about what was going to happen. Ladies and gentlemen, listeners to The View from the Lane, I should not have worried because this was 1974 and these things happened. We get to Harwich,

We wait for the main body of Spurs fans to get lairily and loudly off the train. Then we get off.

And the police, in my mind, 200, but let's call them 50. The police beckon us not to the ferry and to the assorted delights of the continent, but onto another train straight back to London. There'd been so much trouble on the train, they put us onto a train, no stopping, straight back to London. So, James, this is the second European final that I've not seen for one reason or another. Obviously, I couldn't watch the Champions League final. So we get back to London.

A tale between our legs. The game was only on the radio. I think I can remember the BBC commentary. Brian Butler must have been one of the main commentators on it. The second leg in Rotterdam is historic for a couple of reasons. It was Bill Nicholson's last game in charge of Spurs. After they lost this final, he'd probably done all that he could at Spurs.

Is the theory not that Bill Nicholson quit because, or at least partly because of that violence and the fact that he was so sick of this kind of thing creeping into... Do you know what? That's a very good point, James. Yes, it seems that...

for a gentleman of his age who'd come through English football of a certain kind, the creeping, it hadn't reached its peak. I think it reached its peak in the mid-70s. But every game in England, you had to account for, if you were going, where you were going to stand, particularly in the big grounds in the north, but also the grounds in London,

Spurs and West Ham, always trouble. Chelsea, always trouble. And I say books subsequently and...

including one that I was in, The Football Factory. Hold on, you were in Football Factory? You can hear me. I'm credited in The Football Factory. Do you not hear me, Jack? That's one of my favourite films. No, it isn't. Shut up. Yes, it is. It's one of his absolute favourite films. Football Factory. In this of all weeks. Bill Nicholson.

Yeah, he was sickened by the violence that was creeping into English football. And that game in Rotterdam, look, you've seen the stuff that went on that led to deaths and things, but the film of it and the way it was covered, it looked horrendous. And it certainly overshadowed the game. One last thing about this before we move on to other people's memories is, unless you've got more questions for me or things to say,

After the game, Martin Peters, almost immediately after the game, his first captain was interviewed. His hair was still wet, as I recall. And when asked what was going on, rather than saying they were technically better than us, he went into a speech that could have been written today.

He started saying, we're playing too much football in England and we don't get a chance, therefore, to be as technically clever as the Dutch players. I watched it last night. I was taken aback. I'd forgotten that this was already the cant. Let me ask you a question. Was Bill Nicholson rotating enough? And then when he did rotate, did you then complain that he rotated? No. And also, to be honest, James, I didn't think about the game the way I think about it now.

I kind of knew the Spurs team. They were good, bad, or indifferent in my mind. And we didn't have, as you might be hinting at there, 45-minute discussions about whether or not they were under-rotating. You're referring to my outrage that the team picked against the other week, yeah. No, just in general, just in general. We'll get onto your memories of playing against Dutch teams very, very soon.

One or two questions from listeners. Moz on Twitter, stroke X, asks, is this game a key litmus test for Ange Postakoglu? He's had a clear week. People are back from injury and a small, very small glimmer of form.

So this upcoming first leg against Alkmaar. Jack, what does it mean? Is it a litmus test for Spurs this season? Yeah, massively. I mean, not so much this game, but the whole, like the remainder of the campaign, I think, is it really feels like the last two years, I think, have been building up to

been building up to this and I feel like the whole post-Coglu era so far will to an extent be judged on whether or not this campaign succeeds or not you know if they get to the final then I think everybody will look back at the last two years as having been really good I think even though obviously the league form this year is pretty bad but I think it would be I think the badness of the league form would kind of be justified if they got to the final in Belbao

But if they go out, whether to Alkmaar or in the quarterfinals, I think the whole season becomes a failure. And I know it's unfair to judge managers on...

knockout football because knockout football is so random. Anything can happen in knockout football, as we know, and there's a lot of luck involved. Do you have players fit at the right time and referees' decisions and all the rest of it? But we live in a reductive business. I just think it's just the nature of the situation is that the whole kind of success or failure, I think, of the last two seasons really does hinge on what happens...

on Thursday and for the rest of this Europa League campaign. That's how it feels to me. You feel the same way, James? Yeah, I'd say so. Certainly in terms of vibes, how are we going to feel about the season? I mean, I think if they went out at this stage, it would be close to disastrous, really. I don't really see there's going to be much you can claw back from this season after that if that was to happen. But that isn't what I expect to happen. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, it does feel like everything is in, all the eggs are in this basket now. And like I said, I think at the start of last week, I'm actually pretty happy with that as a situation. I think that's quite good. Like we've, as I said before, we've seen situations where Spurs have been in multiple competitions. There is clarity, isn't there? Going deep into a season. And I think like having the option, as I did against Manchester City last week, to rotate and to kind of, you know, to give other players minutes is,

and to rest players for midweek games, I think that's going to put them in a good position to win this competition or certainly to go deep.

Okay, well, we'll hear from Dutch football expert Alex Zonneveld, one of my crew on Trans Europe Express. We'll hear from him a little later on in the podcast about what kind of form Altmaier are in, what kind of threat they will bring to Tottenham's progress. Here's another question. This is from Jack Carpenter. He says, who do you want to see in our midfield on Thursday? He says it feels like Bergwijn, Maddison and Benton Kerr have been great when they play together, James. Yeah, instinctively that feels like

The three you'd pick on the basis of kind of the form of other players as much as anything else. I mean, Basum has gone off the boil again, so you probably wouldn't pick him. That trio feels like it kind of ticks most of the boxes in terms of kind of attributes and the skill set across the three of them or whatever. So...

Pretty attacking, but you don't wait for an away leg. Right, yeah, but I suppose in the post-away goals era, maybe that isn't quite as good a thing. I mean, that is the kind of scenario you're going to find with pretty much any combination of players you play out of the available midfielders, I suppose, isn't it? We know there isn't, or we think there isn't a true six among that group, really.

And otherwise, I mean, I can't really think what would be the more kind of defensive-minded, what, Bissouma and Benton Curl with... And Sarr, you know, you play legs rather than skills. But no, I'd be happy with that. I think this would be trying to take the game to Alkmaar. I think it's telling that in the last four games, it's always been Benton Curl, Bergvall, and then one other of Kulishevsky and Maddison, which has rotated. So...

It was Kulosevsky for Aston Villa in the cup, Maddison for Manchester United, Kulosevsky for Ipswich, Maddison for Manchester City. So I would expect it to be, and I think that gives, that's really the most consistent that Tottenham have been in the midfield. Like it's been chopping and changing all year really, but now you know really in outline what he wants to do.

So I would say Benton, Kerr, Berg, Vow and whichever of Kulishevsky and Maddison which I think will come down to fitness and whether Kulishevsky might be needed on the right wing. That's the point isn't it? That choice between Maddison and Kulishevsky has knock-ons doesn't it? Because you then have to choose between Kulishevsky or Johnson. If Kulishevsky plays at 10 then

then Johnson has to start. And it's a very different team. I'm not saying it's better or worse. I'll leave other people to judge that because it actually does better work, in my opinion. But Johnson keeps on scoring goals when given the opportunity. And that's a critical thing in football. He said, risking an award for stating the bleeding obvious

So it'll be very interesting. I'm rattling through these because I've got so many more games against Dutch teams to go through. I'll also be trying to discuss your favourite. Now, James, you've got to promise me you won't go on Google while we're doing this. I actually believe you'll get these

Before we came on air, we were saying Spurs have had 11 Dutch players. And this will do a question. Well, I know them. I just do. Whatever else it is, I just do. But we'll be seeing. Can we catch Jack out with the 11 Spurs players who've been Dutch? This is from who said this?

We should talk quickly about Christian Romero. We're presuming he won't be fit to start this Thursday, but how do we feel about his inclusion in the Argentinian squad for upcoming World Cup games? Yeah.

There's no name on that. This has been a constant, not a thorn, but a theme in Spurs during Christian's time at Spurs. He's always off with Argentina. Fit, unfit, happy, sad, off he goes. What do we think about this, James? I mean, there are four matches between now and the international break. I mean, I know...

It feels unlikely that he plays this Thursday. I guess we'll know a bit more when Postacoglu speaks on Wednesday evening. Yes, yes. But then there are another three matches after that as well before the international break. Bournemouth, Altman, Fulham, is that right? If he's just got fit at this point and it's just kind of a coincidence, then what else can you do? I mean, you could argue again, I mean, we're talking about putting legs into...

Sorry, putting minutes into the legs of players. I mean, like that isn't a nonsense phrase as well, by the way. But giving players minutes, like does going away and playing a game and a half for Argentina in those circumstances, is that actually going to be useful possibly? Otherwise, you might be sat around, you know, not playing matches, just training with most of the first team squad not there.

I mean, I don't know the answer to that because we don't know the exact point he's at in his recovery. But assuming he's been kind of training on his own a lot in the last few weeks, I don't think necessarily doing that for another two weeks or another 10 days while... Benefit necessary. While all the other first team players away is necessarily going to be that good. Whether the travel is a good thing for him, I guess, is a different question. That's the other question, yeah. Um...

I don't know what you think, Jack. He needs to play for Spurs before he plays for Argentina again. Otherwise, it looks bad.

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think he, I think it's telling how, you know, how little football he's played for Tottenham in the last few months. It's 15 minutes, by the way, since the last international break he's played. You know, Tottenham, it's worth saying, like, Tottenham don't have any say in this. They don't, you know, they won't get consulted, I don't think, on who the Argentinian Football Association picks.

And also Tottenham can't really say, Tottenham can't say no. You can't stop. It's like a FIFA requirement. You can't stop your players from playing international football. And of course, Romero will want to play for Argentina. This has been a constant theme since he joined. You know, I remember back in, I think it was this October 2021 break when Romero was being part of Argentina squads. And this is when there were strict travel restrictions on, you know, owing to the pandemic.

And do you remember, because I think I'm right in saying Argentina was on the red list, which is to say if you flew from Argentina back to the UK, you had to do a long stint in quarantine before you could re-enter normal social life in the UK.

And so to kind of get around this Tottenham, and it wasn't just Tottenham, Tottenham did it in conjunction with Aston Villa. They set up a sort of mini training camp in Croatia. So the Romero and Martinez and I think, um, and maybe Davinson Sanchez was involved. And I think they all went to this hotel in Croatia so they could train for a week with a,

you know, with a physio before returning to the UK so they would not have to quarantine in the UK. So the point I'm trying to make is that ever since they signed him in 2021, Tottenham have really had to work around Romero's, not just his international commitments, but his desire to play for Argentina. Like he, you know, he's kind of an Argentina player in his head. I don't think it's unfair to say. I imagine he thinks himself as an Argentina player first and a Tottenham player second.

And, you know, I guess Tottenham have just got to hope that he keeps improving, that he recovers from his quad injury, that he gets to play at some point soon. I mean, the fact is, if he hasn't played for that long, I don't think it's necessarily the worst thing for him to go and play some football. Obviously, the travel's not ideal, but that's just part of it. Yeah, but it came against Brazil and Argentina, between Brazil and Argentina on the other side of the world. Maybe not perfect, but...

rehabilitation type match. And of course, the injury to Lissandro Martinez means that they probably need him. They're going to qualify for the World Cup. The South American group is ridiculous now. With the expansion of the World Cup, I think...

Only two teams South America don't automatically qualify or get into a playoff. It really is extraordinary how easy it is now to get through that group. Can I just offer a bit of context on something Jack said? Yeah. So Jack mentioned that Romero probably saw himself as an Argentina player before a Spurs player or over a Spurs player. I'm just looking at his Instagram bio now. This is scientific. This is science. In order, Gareth Bale style,

It's as follows. The Argentina national team, these are who he's tagged in his Instagram bio. The Argentina national team, number one, top. Adidas, number two, the Adidas corporation. Big multinational sports conglomerate, number two. Number three, Tottenham Hotspur Football Club. And number four, his wife. So look, if nothing else, they are above his wife, in his eyes on this. If we're going on this basis. ♪

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Welcome back to The Lane where you're listening to me, Danny Kelly, Jack Pitbrook and James Moore. James, it's your turn now to turn your mental spotlight onto a game against Dutch opposition as we continue to build up to the round of 16 first leg on Thursday against AZ Alkmaar. I say we'll be joined by Alex Honneveld a little later to discuss what Alkmaar might do to try and put a stone in Spurs' pathway this

James, what games do you want to look back at? Well, there are two against PSV that I want to talk about. I feel like it's good to kind of cover off the big three clubs in Dutch football without giving away the game Jack is going to talk about and who that may be against. I'm sure nobody can see that coming. Go ahead, Eagles or Deventer. There was a game against NEC Breda, I think, in about 2008. Actually, this would have been a few months before that. This was a game at PSV.

the second leg of a last 16 tie in the UEFA Cup. The first leg at home at White Hart Lane, I suppose I'd lost 1-0. I wonder if either of you could tell me, a late 2000s PSV player, a great name, a great player. I feel like he was probably very kind of football manager, championship manager. Who got the goal? From Peru. Peru?

Oh, Oscar Cardozo. No, no, no. Jefferson Farfan. Oh, Jefferson Farfan. Very good. What a player. So Spurs go to Eindhoven with this 1-0 deficit. And I think Dimitar Berbatov scored one of the kind of great forgotten Spurs goals. Certainly one of the great forgotten Spurs in Europe goals. This really nicely struck volley from a Pascal Timbon de Kroos that he kind of...

He's probably like the most spectacular burst of speed and movement I've seen from Dimitar Berbatov to go on the end of this ball. But he strikes his volley so sweetly beyond the PSV goalkeeper who we'll come on to in a second. So, Pittsburgh's 1-0 up, away from home, banging on the door. I remember a really, really good save from this goalkeeper from another volley actually from Steve Marbronk. Game goes to extra time and then penalties. I

Can you tell me the name of this goalkeeper, Vivi? Is he Dutch? No. No. Aurelio Gomez. It is Aurelio Gomez. Oh, that is a beautiful save, Jack. Aurelio Gomez. Yeah, Spurs going to a penalty tutor against PSV and Aurelio Gomez. I'll read you through the takers for Spurs. Dimitar Berbatov scored. Jamie O'Hara scored. Tom Huddleston scored. Darren Bent scored. Jermaine Genas missed, which, you know...

Well, the less said about that, the better. Didier Zecora scored and Pascal Trimondo also missed or actually saved, I think. And Spurs go out of the UEFA Cup on penalties, but then immediately sign Jairzio Gomez that summer. And obviously that worked out completely fine.

Although my memories of him now are very fond. At the time, I was gnashing and weeping a bit like him. But actually, my memories of Aurelio now are pretty fond. I don't know why. I think it's safe to say he had a pretty difficult adjustment period to English football. But once he had done that, and if he went out of a team and then came back in again, like helped Spurs qualify for the Champions League in 2010, and then played in that run to the quarterfinals the following season.

So actually it was a good signing in the end. And this was like an era where a couple of players that Spurs signed having played against them in Europe in that kind of mid 2000s period. But to kind of throw forward, what, 10 years or so in the group stage in 2018, 2019, what people remember of that Champions League final run are the game Jack is going to talk about that I won't give away.

and I guess Manchester City away. Maybe like wiping the floor with Dortmund because that was probably the most comprehensive performance or certainly result of the whole run. The thing that's forgotten is the turning point. And this was obviously talked about loads at the time, but I think it's subsequently been forgotten. Spurs started that group really, really badly. I don't think they won any of the first three matches. And they had a home game against PSV at Wembley.

and went behind that they needed to win this game to go for it and then they went behind and then they needed two late goals from Harry Kane who's a striker who used to play for Spurs to turn that game around and that was like quite a significant moment in that season because without that you don't get you know

Llorente at the Etihad and VAR and Lucas Moura in the other game and all those other great moments and memories and my stupid drive down to Madrid that I'm sure we'll talk about at some point again. Oh yeah. So it's kind of a forgotten turning point. And I know the longer term picture for the Pochettino era wasn't especially great beyond that.

But like without that comeback against PSV, two quite, I mean, Jack, you probably did the game right. Two quite sort of scrappy goals. It was one of the penalty and like a deflected goal from the edge of the box or something like that. Weirdly, I don't, I remember being in Eindhoven for the 2-2 really clearly. So they lost 2-1 at Inter, having played, I thought, quite well. Then they got batted home by Barcelona. Then they went to Eindhoven and they were 2-1 up late on. Lloris got sent off. It was,

became a two-all draw. So they had one point after the first three games. Amazing. And then the fourth game they had PSV at Wembley, and they were 1-0 down for 76 minutes of the game. And then Kane scored twice at the end, and they won. So that... And so James was right. That was the turning point. And without that Kane late show against PSV, so this is 6th November 2018, without that Kane late show, then obviously nothing that...

subsequently would have happened. But weirdly, I don't... I'm sure I was at that game, but I don't have any very clear memories of it. Not because it wasn't an interesting game, but I think a lot of people have sort of memory hold a lot of the Wembley era.

Like that kind of year and a half of Wembley games. The trudging years, I think. The trudging to back and forth to that stadium. Particularly in that first two thirds of the 18-19 season, by which time Tottenham were meant to be playing back at the new stadium. I think by that point people were thinking, oh, Wembley again.

So, which is my... I mean, I do remember the Barcelona game, the 4-2, just because Messi was so good. But that PSV game, maybe not so much. What I remember now, actually, is that it was a header from Kane, the winning goal. Like, headed down into the ground and then deflected off the knee of one of the defenders and then kind of spinning into the bottom corner. It's like a really unspectacular... Like the kind of goal you don't really expect to win a big game. Like a really sort of scrappy, spawny goal. Right, we're heading towards Thursday.

This podcast may last till Thursday. In classic Views from the Lane style, let's go way ahead of ourselves and think about our perfect route to the final. Let's assume...

And I don't mean in real terms. You should take nothing for granted. But let's fantasize that Spurs get through these two games against AZ Alkmaar. The quarterfinal, James, would be either against Frankfurt, Eintracht Frankfurt, or Ajax. The semifinal opponents will be Bode Glimt, Olympiacos, Vittoria Pilsen, or Lazio.

How do you want to go? So this exercise isn't who would I want Spurs to play. No. It's who I would want Spurs to beat, right? Is that kind of what you're saying? Well, the most fun run that Spurs could have getting to the final and including the final itself. Again, without wanting to give away what Jack is going to talk about in a few minutes, I wouldn't want to play Ajax because let's keep those memories pure. Let's not...

Let's not kind of sully that with an inferior version. Remember when Spurs beat Inter in the Champions League in 10-11 and then played them again in the Europa League two or three years later. And I mean, actually, I think they won the home game 3-0 and lost 4-1, I think, away from home and went through on away goals. They were really good in that home game against Inter. Yeah, they were really good. Really, really good. But they were terrible in that away game. Terrible, yeah. Yeah, they went through on away goals, which obviously wouldn't be the case now.

And it kind of just sort of felt like at the time, maybe with a bit of distance, it hasn't done that. But at the time, it felt like they've kind of undermined the previous games against Inter a bit by playing them again. So I wouldn't want to play Ajax. I wouldn't want to play them. They're an amazing winning tear. They're really, really playing well. So we're picking Frankfurt there. Marmouchis Frankfurt, as we've now decided to describe them. Although they've got, sorry, remind me who it is who's scoring loads of goals for them now.

Oh, a French guy who played for PSG. Rekha TK. So semi-final, what should be more fun? A trip to the Arctic Circle with Boda. Beautiful Athens with Olympiacos. I'm going to say Victoria Pilsen, but I don't know anything about where they play, if I'm truthful. Or Lazio. Well, not Lazio. No, we hope they're out by the time we get to the semi-final. And I'll be honest, not really just for the football.

I mean, getting to the European semi-final and then playing Bodo Glynth would be fun. That would be quite funny, wouldn't it? And that would seem to be our odds with the kind of popular definition of Spurs, where I guess losing that game would be that.

Presumably the weather will be improved in the Arctic Circle by April, yeah? I reckon probably not, really. Oh, it feels like it's probably always roughly the same up there, right? Pretty much. At least there'll be some daylight. Surely in the Arctic Circle in May, because the semi-finals are the first two weeks of May, it'll be close to the point where it's sunny all the time, right?

Oh, right, yeah. So it won't be there maybe not all the time, but certainly for many, many hours per day. Wow, okay. That's fun. There you go. Jack and Jay off to the Arctic Circle. Olympiacos, I guess, I mean, Athens would be really hot, I assume, by that point. And Pilsen?

I don't know. I've never been to Pilsen. It's sort of industrial heartland, right? It's the home of Skoda and Pilsner Urquhart. Wow. Do you have a preferred finalist, James? We're not going to do this for me and Jack as well. It's just too much.

No. Real Sociedad, Manchester United, that team FCSB, about whom I must admit I know very little. Who are not Stade Bucharest. Officially not Stade Bucharest. Yeah. Lyon, Fenerbahce, Rangers, Roma, or Athletic Bilbao themselves, final, of course, in Bilbao. Right, but if we're going kind of on logistics...

Like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

Even though they're not called that now? John Text as Leon? Yeah, maybe them. Mourinho? You don't want Fanebac? No. That's too much. And not Rangers again for similar sort of logistical. So probably Leon. Yeah, that'd be fun. That'd be fun. In another edition, because we have been getting ahead of ourselves, we'll come back to how we intend to get to Bilbao in the inevitable consequence of Spurs reaching the

the final of the Europa League. It does involve everyone coming to Castle Kelly here in Ireland for about a week's preparation before we take the ferry from Rosslare to Bilbao itself. But we'll come back to that in just a little while. So to return to the Vibes rollercoaster of games against Dutch opposition in preparation for the game on Thursday,

Jack, you're squeezed for time here. I hate to say that to you because I'm sure I want to hear what you're going to say. You're bringing this right up to date and the vibes rollercoaster and we know the problems here that

the good bits of a Rives rollercoaster when you're going down but psychologically we want it to go up really we've been struggling with this for the entire season who are you going to talk about what game are you going to talk about I just think it's impossible to think about Tottenham playing in the Netherlands without thinking about Ajax 2 Tottenham 3 Champions League semi-final second leg

from the 2018-19 season, which was the, this was what was in the mystery box. You can now, we can now reveal it to all the listeners. Yeah, very good. Spending the first half of the podcast wondering what's inside the mystery box. Yeah, and it's, you know, it's just a kind of unescapable bit of Tottenham history, I don't think. It's kind of why I don't really want them to get Ajax in the quarterfinals if they get through. Yeah.

And it's why if they did get Ajax, I wouldn't have any particular interest in going, I don't think. Because nothing will ever be like this again. I mean, that is literally true in the sense that the away goals rule means that you will never again get a situation where a team is going out with seconds left on the clock and then they score a goal and then they're suddenly going through. Like that kind of...

Yeah. Transformation is no longer possible. I think that's a bad thing. I think that was, I think the away goals rule was good for that reason. Uh,

But also, just because it's so, I mean, it's so spectacularly unusual, you know, it was a semi-final, Spurs were 3-0 down, halfway into the second leg. And everybody was thinking at that point, oh, you know, they've had a great run, but they've come up against a better team, or at least a team who was more clinical than them. And, you know, Ajax will probably get ripped apart by Liverpool in the final. And Tottenham can reflect on, you know, not quite getting there.

And then Lucas scores those two goals at the start of the second half. I kind of watched them... I watched it back the other day for some reason. Right. And the goals are really good. I mean, I think people get so wrapped up in how... People get so wrapped up in, like, the sort of historicalness... That's a weird word. Historicalness of it and the unusualness and everything. But, like, all three goals are really, really good from Lucas. Like, the first one where he sort of takes...

I love the second one because he's the only player who keeps his calm in a box, a penalty area where everybody else is falling over. The first one where he basically does it all by himself. He seizes the ball at the halfway line, wins it back, drives forward, plays that one-two, I think, with Dele, and then brilliant finish, early low finish into the bottom corner. And then the third one is kind of a mixture of the first two, really, in the sense that he's the only player who keeps his head, finds the bottom corner with a clever low finish.

And, yeah, it's just such a kind of magical piece of... The whole thing is such a magical story. You know, such a perfect drama. And, yeah, and, like, you know, people... For as long as Tottenham Hotspur Football Club exists, people will be talking about that particular...

That particular moment, it was a real privilege to be there and not something that I will ever forget. You've described it so beautifully. James, can you remember, of course you can, where you were? Yeah, I was watching the game. But what I would say about that game would be...

Like if you're not good in the final, you want to have like the kind of big, like standalone moment that everyone remembers entirely fondly. Like no one is thinking, oh, well, it's a waste of time winning that game because I didn't win the final. Like everyone is completely unanimous and think that was like one of, if not the greatest moment in the time they've been watching Spurs. Like there's absolutely no regret there that it didn't win the final in that regard. And the other thing I remember is Victor Wanyama just smacking the ball down the line at the end of the game. Do you remember that, Jack?

He was just like trying to waste time at the end of the game and it was like Lamella kind of step over and nearly giving the ball away in their half. Yeah. And Victor Onyama just like smacking the ball down the line and out of play.

Yeah. Oh, good fun. Oh, good fun. Yeah. I've just, and people, you know, people would put it up on Twitter enough times. I was watching it on my own here, actually, in Ireland. And I realized I burst in really burst into tears when the final whistle went. And I've managed to take my glasses off and take a photograph. So I've just sent it to the producer. I don't think he's seen it before and may not want to see it again. I really was in absolute floods of tears. It was amazing. Yeah.

And thank you for bringing it. We would have been remiss if we hadn't called up one of the great games we wanted to talk about against Dutch opposition. And it should be made the point, of course, Dele Alli played a great part in that, including in those goals you talked about. And it was, I thought...

I'm so pleased. He hasn't played a game for nearly, well, over two years, I think it's fair to say, but he's now fit enough to be named on the bench at the weekend for Como, and I suspect it means he will be coming on. Quite apart from the fact, you know, that before we knew what we knew about his...

young life, personal life, that it just seemed like such a shame that such a brilliantly talented footballer was fading away before our very eyes. Given now what we do know about all of that, it would be just wonderful if he could have some time at Como or resuscitate his career. I was...

I'm saving myself for the little tears to run down my face for Dele Alli for when he actually gets on the field against whoever it's going to be before Como. But I was thrilled for him, James. Or are you so flinty-hearted that ex-Spurs players have no interest to you? Well, I mean, I'm sure there are some Spurs players that I would say that about. But I mean, Dele Alli, as we've kind of established, has a very special place in the heart of Spurs fans of that era. And there was a reason that Dele Alli's name was sung more than

Kane or Ericsson or Vertonghen or whoever else in that team there was like an emotional attachment there and it was like a kind of vulnerability that you could sense even then before we knew like the realities of it.

Right, welcome back to the final part of today's bumper edition of The View from the Lane Dutch special. He's been hanging on the line for about half an hour, such has been the tardiness of this production. But since he's worked with me for years over at Talk Sport on Trans Europe Express and others, I think he's probably used to me prattling on and on. Our next guest is Dutch. He's an expert on Dutch football and also, just to give some personal background, has the greatest collection of football shirts of any human being on earth.

the hippest, most fantastic shirts. So welcome aboard Alex Zonneveld. Hello, Alex.

Hi, Danny. Thanks very much for having me. Oh, who else would I get? Come on. What's that shirt you're wearing now then? Go on. We have got a very hipster Fortuna sit-hard from, I think, 1995 going on. Wow. I saw them. It's a tiny little village in the south of Holland. It's bizarre they even have a football team, but it's brilliant. One of those proper sort of local teams. I watched them play last year and, yeah, really good experience. And then I had to have six beers to get the Eurostar back to London, which wasn't very fun.

Listen, truthfully, Alex, you should be doing a podcast about your shirt collection because the clubs you choose to buy their shirts from, the eras you choose to hunt down their shirts from, there's a story behind every single one. I knew as soon as I saw you there, I thought that's not a Marks & Spencer t-shirt, is it? No.

Thank you very much for that. Alex, the reason you're here formally, of course, you keep us up to date on Trans Europe Express, particularly with everything that's going on and in fantastic detail in Dutch football. We talked about Ajax earlier in the show and how they're running away with the title there. So Spurs have got two games coming up against AZ Alkmaar. Tell us about what kind of season they're having and...

Who are the players who could hurt Spurs? Because as always, sorry to say it, even though Spurs are struggling, the belief, you know, the background belief of English football fans is, oh, it's only some Dutch team who are sixth or fifth in the table, whatever it is. Tell us about Alkmaar. Yeah, so I think that that mentality is exactly what Alkmaar will really be hoping for. That sort of underestimation. Well, they're no Ajax, they're no final, they're no PSV. Well, they're not, but I'll tell you what they are. They're a team who've lost three competitive games since the beginning of December.

um they are a very very strong team they're a team who play in a very good system whether that be usually a 4-3-3 or a 4-2-3-1 they know what they want and they know what they're looking for which is largely to play really solid defensive football and get it up to their target man it's very it's very Dutch in a sense you know this is a team who had Valtverhoes not that long ago you're a great hero of course of course every Dutchman's great hero but um and

This season, their VEGHOR substitute is Troy Parrott, who has been excellent, who I'm sure we'll get on to, who's very familiar with you guys as a former Tottenham player, of course. But he has been a revelation since signing. He's had, I think, 17 goals in all competitions this season. I think in the league, they've only got 40, which isn't a lot, and he's had 12 of them. So I think he's scored 30% of the goals they get. So as a general rule, they'll expect him to be really hard to play.

really hard to break down. They'll look to get balls in. They'll look to target any sort of weakness in the Spurs' defence, any sort of quick counter-attack, or if he can turn his man. And they will be dangerous. And underestimating them is the worst possible thing Spurs fans can do. Can you tell us a bit more about Parrott's time there? Because it seemed to me that maybe at Tottenham the hype and the expectation, I think, probably...

maybe didn't help him to sort of settle and play his best football and various loans in English football, which never quite clicked for him. So why do you think he's been kind of freed up a little bit by being in a very different environment in Holland to play?

I think that's spot on. I think it's really, really difficult for a lot of players who are good. And obviously there's a rule of thumb with Trans Europe Express. Just because they weren't good enough for the Premier League doesn't make them a bad footballer. You need to give young players time to develop and time to find their feet and football week in, week out. And he wasn't getting that necessarily at Spurs. He was under a lot of pressure. And since he's moved to the Eredivisie and obviously played for Excelsior before he then made the move to RZs,

He's been allowed that extra room. And let's be honest, right? You do get a little bit more time in the Eurodivision on the ball as well, right? So there is that half a second of pace you get. It's a slightly not easier league, but you're definitely not up against defenders who are as good. So I think he's been able to have time to develop his skills, find his feet, if you like. And through that, he's developed confidence. And confidence is the one thing that any striker needs. And you've watched him play this season. And he's...

what really strikes me is when I watch him, when I watch highlights and I watched back that Galatasaray game is how, how composed he is on the ball, how calm he is when he sort of makes runs around the defender. When he takes the ball, he doesn't look like he's in a rush. He looks like sort of time stands still for him when he's on that ball. So moving was a really brilliant thing. The issue is now, of course, I'd imagine there will be premier league teams to taking a look at him. There will be, and probably Serie A and the league or et cetera. I,

I don't think he's ready for that step up as yet.

because we've, how many times have we seen that? You know, Vincent Jansen, you guys will know very well, um, or Ali Reza, Yakan Bash when he moved to Brighton, also from RZ. You know, these players can look very, very good in the Eredivisie and they move slightly too early, but is it been good for his career? Absolutely. He's well on his way to developing. I think he's got a very, very high ceiling, um, but he's still got some ground to do. Can I just say, uh, Alex, and you can help me with this. This is an extraordinary DNA team out there. Um,

They've got Santa Vestaville's son is in the squad. Mark Van Bommel's son is in the squad. I saw Coop Miners and I thought, oh, no.

But it's not. He's the brother of the really good Koopmaners. That's the star of the Dutch team currently. They've got a whole... And one more familiar name, Stoke City fans. The captain aside is Bruno Martins Indy. But just a very odd... Oh, wow. Wow. Oh, yeah. Jordy Classey in there as well, I think. And Jordy Classey, actually. I interviewed Jordy Classey when he was at Saints. This would have been...

When did he go to Saints? I reckon it was around the time of the 2014 World Cup. It would have been Koeman era, wouldn't it? Yeah, would he have been in Van Gaal's squad for the 2014 World Cup? I can't remember. But then, yeah, Koeman signed him for Saints. And I thought at the time, this guy's going to be amazing. And obviously, you know, didn't last that long in English football. I just think English football was probably too physical for him at that point.

But he's clearly gone on to have a good career. And the fact that he'll be playing against Spurs in this game is testament to that. In terms of Klasi, he's played a huge role still this season. I mean, he's nicknamed the Dutch Xavi by a lot of the AZ fans because that's the kind of player he is. He is hugely integral to what AZ like to do, especially if they play that 4-2-3-1 where he provides that almost pivot and he sprays the ball out and he loves a shot from distance as well. And I think he did at the Saints. I think he had one or two as well back in the day, Klasi.

but Martins Indy hasn't played a huge role this season. I mean, he's still the club captain, I think, but he's not playing as often. Classy's really the one to watch. He absolutely could pop up with a big goal or a big assist. Speaking to the DNA, they are that kind of club. They really, really like...

picking players up who are maybe even reaching the end of their career or have gone somewhere else and it hasn't quite worked out and really rejuvenating them and giving them a shot in the arm I mean that's what they did with Kerkes before he moved to Bournemouth that's exactly what they did he wasn't getting time at AC Milan he had two seasons with AZ and suddenly he's become this really really phenomenal player

And yeah, so that's really what they do enjoy doing. But watch out for a glass of yee could pop up. When the draw was made, I went on to transfer marked, whether you trust that or not. Interestingly, the value of the Spurs squad, or put it the other way around, the Altmar squad is valued at exactly, precisely...

To the nanofigure, one third of Spurs' 33.3333 recurring to infinity. So Spurs on the paper, of course, the Premier League team squad, isn't it? Should win. What will the Altmar fans be fearing from Spurs, do you think, Alex? Because, I mean, watching and listening to you and watching them at times this season, they don't fear anybody really because they believe in their system that they're going to make the most of what they've got. But there will be...

As Spurs get most of their good players back over these two legs, there will be some pretty powerful stuff coming at Alkmaar. Yeah, I think Alkmaar's biggest worry is conceding first. So Alkmaar aren't a team that they really are fearless and they do like going forward.

the, the, almost the flip side of that is actually, even though they go forward a lot, they don't score loads and loads of goals, right? So what they're really hoping for is they get by by being really tight and largely hitting teams on the counter or hitting teams on a fast break or just sort of wearing teams down. The biggest concern with that strategy, if you're going forward and then Spurs get a very early goal, suddenly they are in a bit of trouble. Really what they need to do is to keep their composure and keep Spurs' goal scoring threat to a minimum. I think they can do that. Uh,

But if you're Spurs, what you need to do is be smart, right? Don't let Alkmaar frustrate them, right? They need to stay calm. They cannot let Alkmaar score because if Alkmaar score, they'll dig their heels in. Spurs just need to play their own game. They are a better team than Alkmaar. They should win. If they play the way we know they can theoretically, they will win. The problem is they could play in a completely...

well, they could let themselves down or they could let Altmarc so first. So, you know, they just need to hold on. And a final question from me, at least, about, well, widening it out from Altmar, of course, they are part of an iceberg, tip of an iceberg of brilliant season so far for Eredivisie teams. Before we start underestimating them, they've knocked, I mean, most of their teams have gone through in these tournaments into these last 16s.

including knocking out Italian teams with much more resource. It's been a great season for Dutch football. Massive, massive. I mean, yeah, you referred to PSV there who have just had a phenomenal season in the Champions League. Not so much in the Eredivisie, but when you combine PSV doing super well and knocking Juve out,

And then you've got the return of Ajax domestically as well, because that's been a big hit to Dutch football is Ajax is, you know, kind of a disappearance off the face of the planet, total collapse a few years ago. So them coming back is massive. And of course, Alkmaar have been there for years. That's the thing. They're finally sort of getting the recognition they deserve, but you know, they reached the conference league semifinals two seasons ago. Um,

against West Ham. They played Aston Villa last season. They did get pumped, I will grant you. But they got to the knockouts again. There are some really good teams in Holland. You know, you've sort of, between Ajax, PSV, Alkmaar, Feyenoord, you've got some really, really decent sides there. And it's glad that we're seeing a sort of, I don't know, is it too early to say a boom of Dutch football? I don't want to ask a pessimistic question, but from what you've said, it sounds to me, Alex, like,

Alkmaar's kind of pragmatism might be kryptonite to some aspects of how Tottenham play, just because even though Tottenham, I think, have done well in the Europa League so far this season, particularly in their away games, there's always spells where they're just, like the other teams, kind of sense of weakness in them, and Spurs have conceded a lot of chances, and they've really had to... I think, you know, particularly Galatasaray, two lesser-than-rangers...

even like Hoffenheim, even like Ferencváros. There's been spells where Spurs have been really up against it in these away games. I'm just wondering, do you think that Altmaier might be able to exploit that on Thursday? Yes.

Yes, I think you look at any team, and I'm a big statistics guy, and you look at any team who've only lost three matches in all competitions since December, that's the team who knows how to win. That's the team who will do what they need to do to get over the line. Martin Martins, the manager, is very happy to change the formation. He's very happy to make changes. He's very happy to try and...

change the momentum of the game to suit his own side's strength and they will wait, Alkmaar. They are patient. They know they've got Troy Parrott who on his day can get two or three goals and they will wait and they'll seek out opportunity and that's the biggest thing. So you're absolutely right. I think sometimes when I watch Spurs this season they have a tendency and you can see it. They get a bit frustrated sometimes

when they think they should be winning and I think sometimes they start doing slightly stupid things they start you know Romero will throw himself into a ridiculous tackle or suddenly they'll start giving the ball away where they shouldn't and that I think is where I will look to exploit them they'll be patient they'll be good having said that if Tottenham play the way we know they can play and get an early goal this could equally be a 2 or 3-0 so it's a really hard game to call but

I wouldn't put a bet on it either way. Yeah, and I know you like a bet as well. So thank you very much, Alex. It's been great to talk to you. Great to see yet another one of your shirts. What's your Twitter X handle so people can see? Because sometimes you put a big load on the floor for people to look at.

Remind me. Absolutely. So if anyone wants to follow me on Twitter, it's A underscore Z-O double N. So A-Zon, Alex Zonneveld. Ridiculously long Dutch surname. And you'll get occasional bursts of just the most fantastic collection of

of football shirts and not the obvious ones either that's what's so brilliant about it but Alex thank you we now know everything is possible to know I think about Spurs opponents over the next 10 days or so thank you for joining us here on the view from the lane

Thanks for having me. Yeah, Alex Zonneveld there. And that takes us to the end of this really long and magic carpet ride through Spurs' relationship with clubs from the Netherlands. I hope you've enjoyed. I've really enjoyed doing it. And particularly as I'm of an age where it was those Dutch sides, Feyenoord and Ajax in the early 70s that turned me from being someone who was

mad about Spurs someone who just loved football because even I only saw them in highlights clips and the Dutch team in World Cups and things it just you just suddenly thought okay so there's more to this than playing 4-4-2 and outlasting the opponents in a clogging match and Dutch football did that for me looking forward to these games very very much indeed thank you to Alex thank you to Jack thank you to James thank you all for listening

and remind you of course that we can be got hold of on the aforementioned xstroke twitter at the ftl podcast same on blue sky and you can email us vftl at the athletic.com we'll be back again on friday when we'll know how spurs gone in alchemar till then god bless you all and come on you spurs the athletic