Poch's shadow looming large
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Hello, everybody. Welcome back again. Here we go round the mulberry bush one more time. The View from the Lane, a multi-award winning top-of-the-moss podcast from The Athletic. Joining me, Danny Kelly today, are Jack Pitbrook and James Moore. On today's show, we're going to cover at least, and we'll see where this goes, a bit like added on time, at least we'll cover your many questions relating to the manager and everything else. When we ask for questions, they're nearly all about the manager. The international break, what to watch out for, and it's two years.

since Antonio Conte's rant or, as it's now becoming rewritten, truth-telling session. Okay, let's start with another of Spurs' managers, not the current one, but Maurizio Pochettino. Now, I had assumed when I saw Pochettino's latest twerk in the general direction of North 17 that this was a press conference where he was asked questions prior to the United States' upcoming election.

World Cup qualifiers. But Jack Pitbrook, they don't have to qualify, do they? Of course they don't. They're the hosts. They're at Nations League this week. Ah, thank you. But Jack, you then said, I was in the room. I thought, hang on, this is something different. Give us the circumstance before we talk about what Pochettino had to say. Yeah, so Pochettino did a... Last week, he spent a bit of time with various British media outlets on

in central London. He obviously still spends a fair bit of time in London. And he as well as you know, spending time in the US as US manager. And while he was here just before flying out to LA, which is where the US are playing in the they've got CONCACAF Nations League semifinals and final.

this week and next week. He spent some time with British media. So you will have seen, he did an interview with Talk Sport, he did an interview with Sky Sports, and also did a session with various UK media writers. And I was one of the people in the room for that. The elite, the absolute elite, yes. We had a really wide-ranging conversation about a lot of stuff, you know,

Chelsea, Tottenham, managing the US largely, you know, the challenges of international management. And it was in the course of that that he said to us what I think he did also say to Sky and to TalkSport as well, which was that he would, you know, from the bottom of his heart, he would one day love to return to Tottenham and win something there.

This all would, of course, have been all very jolly if the subject of Spurs' manager wasn't so high on many people's agendas. When we asked for questions for this podcast in the absence of another away defeat to discuss, I would say we got a good response. Lots of people came on, but 90% of those questions were about the future of Ange Postakoglu. And Spurs' future, of course, is tied in with that. So, James, I'm going to go straight to the jugular here.

If Spurs needed a manager and it could be arranged, would you be happy, unhappy, neutral about the return of Maurizio Pochettino, who clearly still feels he has unfinished business? At the very least, he thinks that. I mean, personally, I'd be very happy with that. But what we should probably point out at this stage is this isn't a thing that's going to happen now or in the summer. Have you ever worked in football before?

Well, I've worked on the periphery of football, Danny. You're central to it, in my mind. Well, to many people, yeah. I think that the sort of financial machinations of that would be, I would say, beyond the palette of this football club. Is that a diplomatic way of putting it? I think it would be very, very expensive to get Mauricio Pochettini out of his contract with US Soccer. And...

I mean, look, one of the things we know about Pochettino is he's absolutely mad about international football and the World Cup. He did an interview with Jack immediately prior to the previous World Cup and the thrust of that whole thing was the World Cup is the best thing in the world. International football is absolutely incredible. I'm so, so passionate about this. Playing for your country, representing your country is the best feeling. Yada, yada, yada. He's kind of reiterated all that stuff since he's taken this job. As much as...

Some people, and certainly not Jack and I, given our employment, look down their nose at US soccer. I don't think Maurizio Pochettino is going to be in a hurry to immediately walk away from that. So if people have this idea that Maurizio Pochettino has said all of this because he wants to become a Tottenham manager either immediately or in the summer, I think that would be a misapprehension. And also, I mean, Jack was saying to me yesterday that

Given the timeline of the World Cup next summer and Jackie may know offhand when the final is. 19th of July. It's quite late in July. I mean, Spurs will be back in pre-season by that point in that summer. Whatever the situation is. So it wouldn't really be an ideal situation for him to be manager of any club team working on that calendar in 26, 27 either.

So, you know, you're probably talking about Mauricio Pochettino, the earliest he could return as manager is when whoever is manager at the start of

the season after next leaves the club. And that could be, we could be two or three managers down by that point. Oh yeah. And caretakers. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think the chances of him, I know a lot of people have asked like, Ooh, do you reckon he can job, he can job share with the US or do you think he can, can he just take over this summer? Like the chance of Pochino not being the US manager at the world cup are zero. Like they're just absolutely zero. Well, this conversation is almost pointless. No, no, no, no, not at all. But I just think he's,

I think for him, coaching the US at a World Cup is such a huge thing. It's such a rare privilege to coach a host nation at a World Cup. Only a small list of people have ever done it. And I think he's going to...

obviously, as I said, he's got this kind of romantic attachment to the World Cup. He's so proud of the fact that he played for Argentina in 2002. He grew up watching Argentina win the 78 World Cup, the 86 World Cup. For him, the World Cup is the absolute pinnacle. And so that's a huge sell. But then to coach the US in their own World Cup, he's going to be... When they start their campaign at the...

I think it's at the SoFi Stadium in LA, which is where they're playing in the Nations League this week. He's going to be like the most famous man in the world at that point. You know, he's going to be... He's going to have the... You know, not just the eyes of 300 million people in the US watching him, but everyone. And he has got this kind of almost...

kind of sacred job, which is to try and turn the US MNT into a competitive team who can, if they win a few games in the World Cup, they will have an incredible emotional and public and popular momentum behind them.

So, and I just think, like, no one would give up on that. No one would give up on that, and certainly not Pochettino. So I would, I know we've had lots of Spurs fans tweeting in saying, you know, can we get him in the dugout for the Eintracht Frankfurt? But I think that that is not going to happen.

Okay, clear up something else for me because, of course, the internet, which started out as a source of information, is now the thing that confuses us more than anything. This photograph of Pochettino and Daniel Levy outside, is it called Limes or Lines in Hadleywood, a coffee bar in Hadleywood, in their puffer jackets. Everyone was going crazy about it on social media, saying here they are organising this, organising that.

Am I gone mad? Was that picture not around a year ago? Or was that a different coffee shop and a different day? I've heard different theories on this. I'm looking for some facts now, Jack. I don't have any. I can't tell you with certainty. I mean, I've heard some people say it's a few years old. I've heard some people say it's a few weeks old. I have tried to pin it down exactly, but I don't want to say on the podcast something weird.

Which I'm not certain about. Wow. But what we can say, by the way, on the basis of what we've just said, is that even if they were having coffee somewhere in North London last week, that doesn't mean Maurizio Pochettino is going to be the Tottenham manager next week. No, but last week is, I mean...

Of course, I now know from Jack that he was in London. I get that. But he's in London a lot. He's got a house in London. He kind of divides his time between London and Barcelona and Atlanta, where I think the US team are based. He's going to come to games quite a lot in Europe. And I also just think, I know obviously some people see that and think, well, he's negotiating to get the job.

Like, if he was actually in negotiations to get the Tottenham job... Do you think he'd be doing it in a cafe in North London? He wouldn't be doing it over an oat milk cortado in Hadley Wood. Like, he wouldn't be... It just wouldn't work that way. But also, Pochettino has said that he is, you know, he talks to Daniel Levy. Like, he's still got a good relationship with Levy. So I know it's obviously the photos have certainly got people talking, and I get that, but I wouldn't...

I think people... I wouldn't extrapolate too much from the existence of the photo. You know, the photo... All the photo says to me is that they're still talking. But we kind of knew that anyway. Politically, it's probably not a terrible thing for Daniel Levy, is it, to be seen with Pochettino? Not terrible. What do you mean? Oh, I see what... Well, hold on. People... Fans at the moment don't like Daniel Levy, but love Maurizio Pochettino. Yeah. Among the many...

social media messages we had when we asked for questions for this. The number of people saying they don't want Pochettino back because it means Levy will stay. Everyone has their distinct line now, the thing that must happen for Spurs to improve. That's just pure accelerationism. You can't just want... Accelerationism, okay, good. Go on. I don't know. I take it from that that some people want

it sounds I mean, the implication of that view is that people want things to get worse and worse and worse until it forces a change of ownership. But I just, I don't think the world works like that, really. Like, I don't think

Daniel Levy's continuance as Tottenham chairman, I don't think will necessarily be tied to who the manager is. So like if he leaves, it will be because he wants to leave. So I kind of feel like, you know, people, I'm not telling people how to feel, but my view is that for as long as he is chairman, maybe it's best if Tottenham have the manager you want them to have, right? Rather than not having the manager you want them to have because the chairman is the chairman.

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Welcome back, everybody, to The View from the Lane. Before we get to those questions, another room in which Jack Pitbrook was was the press room at Southampton, where exactly two years ago, Antonio Conte bared his soul talking about Spurs and

The players are just coasting and prepared to tolerate all kinds of failure. I suppose, Jack, the drama part of me wants to know if we can expect a similar soliloquy, outburst, call it what you want, from Andrew Postacoglu when, if it becomes obvious, that he's not going to be in the job for much longer either. It's a good question, and I think probably not. I would be surprised. I think one of the...

Postakoglu in the main has been very, very measured in what he says. I know he gets a bit... He certainly can get a bit grumpy and rude in post-match interviews, particularly after they've lost. But I think what he hasn't done is...

blame the club for all the players like en masse for anything that's gone wrong this season you know he obviously killed Timo Werner after the Rangers game in December Bissouma got a bit from him after the Fulham game last week but he

He's not really... I'm not sure if he's quite got that in his locker, that kind of self-destructive, take everyone down with me thing from Conte. And, you know, not many managers do. That's obviously a very, very unusual way to behave. But it's been on my mind a bit recently, not just because it's the anniversary, but also because...

if you remember back to the situation two years ago, Conte, like everybody knew that Conte was leaving, you know, his contract was coming up. There was no prospect of a renewal from either side. I think by that point he had, I believe after Saints game, he had 10 games left to go and it just felt like he would just see out the last 10 games and then there

there would be, you know, a smooth transfer of power in the summer, in the summer of 2023 to a new manager. Now, obviously, what Conte's rant did was destroy the possibility of that happening. You know, it basically forced Tottenham to get rid of him. And then obviously they had Stellini and then they had Mason and only then Ange came in.

So I have been wondering if this is coming to the end. And we should say, obviously, Postacoglu is contracted for next season. And there's no firm news at the moment about what Tottenham's plans might be in the summer, whether Postacoglu might get his revenge in early. But I have to say, the more I think about it, I just don't think it's in his nature. I don't think... I think his kind of...

his team player-ness, to invent a word, is a big part of the upside of him. And I think he's... I just don't see him... You know, he could have...

I don't see him blaming the players en masse, blaming the club. I wouldn't expect that to happen. James, at the time, I was appalled by Antonio Conte's outburst. But that's because by that time, I had become completely disillusioned with him as a person, whatever about a football manager.

As the months have gone by, of course, you'd have to be thick not to recognize, in my case at least, that a good deal of what you said was actually true. Is that how you feel?

yeah i think so i mean i don't think we necessarily thought it was untrue at the time it was more uh you don't want it you don't want that kind of laundry washed in public do you yeah exactly it just kind of felt like it was inevitably coming to an end or it was even more inevitable than it had been i mean like i think we're having these conversations on here it's sort of november december 2022 before the world cup suggesting if this isn't going to go on beyond the end of the season does it make more sense to change now uh

which seems like a mad conversation to be having when they were in the top four you know when you look at what's happened this season but whatever so yeah I mean it all feels it feels more true now than it did then let's put it that way but look I don't think I don't think there are many people that wanted him sacked because of what he said that day I think it's more that was the culmination of

like six or four or five pretty miserable months at Spurs, even if results weren't always terrible. But the thing we should always factor in with that, of course, is the backdrop of all of that for Conte in his own life was pretty bad. I mean, worse than that, actually. Yes, we shouldn't forget. The conditions, you know, I think I'm right in saying his family were back in Italy. Obviously, I think there were sort of various people in his life

and at the club who had died. He was very close with... So the circumstances for him on a personal level, on an emotional level, were pretty dire. So you do kind of have to factor that in. I mean, more than that, actually. It's kind of the overriding thing, really. I didn't at the time, but of course... I think we kind of did on and off. I think it is always there. I think it is always something you kind of have to acknowledge. And that's probably... I think that's probably almost the big difference between...

the situation and the situation now in terms of a likelihood of something like that happening again I do think like it was clearly a very emotionally fraught time for him and okay well we have now been around the houses and the I don't want to say elephant in the room but as I say when we ask for questions the vast majority and I'm not exaggerating now I am prone to exaggeration but I will not exaggerate in here were about the current Spurs manager Ange Postakoglu

Amber Red Boots asks, do you think Andrews become obsessed with minutes for players rather than selecting the best lineup for the match in question, e.g. Oduber and Madison on the bench on Sunday? I think in theory, those kind of rotations of players are entirely justified. I do wonder whether the extent of it, for example, that we saw in the game on Sunday or in that game against Manchester City, when in both circumstances...

I mean in the case of that City game Spurs didn't have another game for 8 days and in the case of this game Spurs didn't have another game for whatever it is 20 days or whatever I mean I know some of these players are going away on international duty and fair enough and they had played on Thursday night before that so I mean firstly there may have been issues with players in terms of fatigue and fitness that we don't know about we look at someone like Van der Veen obviously they do have to manage his minutes that's

But that's pretty clear now. I mean, obviously it is a really, really difficult balancing act. But I think if you look at a team like the team that they put out on Sunday, like we all kind of knew that team, that midfield isn't going to create anything. That attack, I think you would have had pretty good reason to believe was going to struggle to score goals. They did have a good spell in the game at 0-0 early in the second half and then kind of conceded two half goals at the end and lost the game. But

I think probably what it tells you is this squad isn't suited to playing that kind of football twice a week, which I think is probably a thing we knew at the start of the season and probably relatively early last season. I think if you support rotation in principle, you should support it in practice. Like, I think he had to rotate. He's not been able to rotate all year. And...

I don't disagree with the rotations that he made for the Fulham game. The problem is that he's rotating in players who are either not very good or are not in good form or not fully fit or...

You can be frustrated that it didn't work, but you can't be angry at the theory. Yeah, you can be annoyed that they play badly. But I think that you could tell, looking at the team sheet, that's not a midfield that's really going to create anything. Those front players are not in good form and good confidence.

Obviously, you know, when they make changes at the back, they concede almost instantly. So I think there's a lot of, I just think it's kind of a problem with depth, but I don't think, so I wouldn't be, I'm not going to, I wouldn't be against the, I wouldn't be against rotating just because they lost. I think they had to, I think they haven't really been able to rotate enough this year rather than too much. Which begs the question, since we all know that the squad is too thin to do it,

What about the person who's paid to know? But that's another question. We'll move on. Hotspur Sam...

Moving straight for the jugular here, has Ange been overpromoted? We're back to this issue about the quality of the Premier League. It's an excellent 26 years in the lower ranks, but promotion to the Premier League maybe shows up as inadequacy at the higher level. He then goes on to the infamous speech last Friday. His plumber may have 26 years' experience in domestic plumbing, but could he cope with renovating the plumbing upgrade of Blenheim Palace? That's very specific. I get that. Is that the pinnacle of plumbing? No.

Who knows? Who knows? Great question. What is the pinnacle of plumbing? Yeah, what is the pinnacle of actual plumbing? Look, this is not... It's not his fault that he hasn't managed in the Premier League or, and this is where I think the real crux comes, in one of the big five European leagues. Sorry to be so parochial about it, but to pretend that the standard isn't different, not...

Not just the standard of the opposition week after week after week after week. We all know this, that Premier League, particularly when you're going away from home, every single point, unless you're playing at Leicester, has to be clawed, as I often say, out of the cold, hard ground of brilliant players properly coached in front of their own fans.

Um, it's a, it's a different, the Premier League is, even if you take the big five leagues in Europe, you know, the physicality of France, the technical speed at which they play in Germany and all the rest of it. Um, the Premier League is something unique and, um,

You could be forgiven, I feel, James, if you arrive in it and it's not the same as what you've done before. Because otherwise we have to fall in with Angie's pretense that the J League and the A League are the same as the Premier League, and they're not. Yeah, I mean, I thought his analogy was kind of flawed because, yeah, as you say, clearly...

there is a pretty big difference in terms of like, as you've mentioned before, not just the quality of the players, but also the quality of opposition coaches. Having said that, like, you know, if we're saying it hasn't worked, his philosophy hasn't transferred to the Premier League, I don't think necessarily means a manager who has worked in Australia, Japan and international football and in Scotland couldn't,

transfer that to the Premier League. It hasn't worked. Hello, I'm a slot. Also, by the way, I think like, you know, had he gone to another club in the Premier League where the conditions were slightly different, if he'd gone to Palace or Brentford or Brighton or wherever, like, I can really picture a situation where it would work really well, where the pressure is different and

the kind of flexibility in recruitment is probably slightly more not in terms of money but just in terms of like player identification and not being the same pressure to go out and sign £60 million centre forward or whatever do you know what I mean I can kind of see a situation where he'd go to another club and it would work well

But, you know, I sort of have misgivings about how well it's going to work at this club. I don't think that Posse Coghlu is necessarily unable to take the step up to Premier League football. I think that he, you know, last season he took over, as he said the other day, he took over a team that was eighth and then lost their best player and brought in some new players and he moved them up the table to fifth. I also think that

I don't think the teams are too good for him. And I think that's proven by the fact that they have achieved some very good results against other good teams. Like on their day, they are really good. Like we've seen that and they can beat anyone. Like they have proven that they can beat anyone in the league during his time at Tottenham. I think what James is really right on is that I think that the issue is the combination of the incredibly demanding and aggressive style of play

plus the schedule, plus the thin squad, and not have... It means that it's just not... They have not been... It would only work if you had Romero and Van de Ven fit for every single game,

or you had really good, like, you know, people better than Dragerson and Gray who could fit in and maybe not give you everything those two guys can give you, but give you some of the stuff they can give you. So you can, you know, you can build up from the back. You can run past opposition. You can run past, you can literally run through the press like Van de Ven does or play those passes Romero can.

And I just think it's those three things in combination, really, that has proven to be unsustainable. But I don't think... I think if you put... If, you know, you built a time machine and gave Costa Coglu a better squad for this season, I think Tottenham would have done better. I think if you put... If you...

put frankly if you put Pozzicoglu into Manchester City or Liverpool where they've got a sufficiently deep squad I mean I think they I think they'd have a few bad days along the way probably more bad days than slots Liverpool but they'd also like blow teams away a lot of the time like I think it can work in this country I think it's not me I just don't think I think the conditions have been slightly off that's my view Soccer Stash asks what is the minimum manager needs to do to keep his job between now and the end of the season and

Shall I go first here? I don't think he can keep his job. I don't care what happens between now and the end of the season. I don't care. I don't think it matters. You can't sustain the number of defeats Spurs have had this season regardless of the circumstances because at the bottom of all this is that if you are paid to manage the team and the injuries come along, you have to do something to ensure that you don't just keep losing game after game after game. And if that means playing a football that I, me personally,

you know, meaningless Danny Kelly would disapprove of, then so be it. But no solutions have been found and very few solutions have been sought. And I suspect when the balance is weighed at the end of the season, where I suspect we'll have sustained...

22, 23, 24 defeats in all competitions. That's just not something you can expect to be allowed to go into the next season with at any club at any level. I could be wrong. What do you think, Jack? Well, I don't,

I don't want to pretend like I know the factual answer. Like I know for certain. And I don't know if that decision has been made. But basically, I agree with you. I think that, I mean, look, I'm sure people say Europa League. I think our baseline assumption has to be they won't win the Europa League because they lose a lot of games. I don't think they're good enough to win, you know, to get through to the final and win the final.

And I think that the league, while I completely understand why the league form has been bad, they've had this injury crisis, I think that at the end of the season, people will say...

the data set is big enough. Like you know we have enough information to draw a decision. As it stands they've lost 15 out of 29 league games. The last time Tottenham lost that's more than half they've lost more than half of their league games so far this season. The last time they lost more than half their league games was 1934-35 when they lost 22 out of 42. So you have to go back a pretty long time you have to go back to exactly before the second world war

to get back to a time where Tottenham have lost league games at a rate like this, even when they went down in the 1970s, only lost half their league games. And yeah, I just think that those, my feeling is that those numbers will become inevitable. They will develop a kind of inevitability around the manager's future. And I think, and my guess is that in the summer, it might be time for a change.

which comes with all kinds of add-ons there. When I see reports about Spurs looking at Player X because Postacoglu loves him, you've got to be very careful that they only recruit for...

I think it's worth us thinking about what... Because this is a question I get asked a fair bit by fans. It is imaginable that they might win the Europa League. There's only eight teams left in it. If they win the Europa League, do you say, fantastic, well done, Ange, triumphant season, now guidance into the Champions League? Or do you think... Well, they're already in the Champions League, though, to be fair, by then.

If they win the Europa League, they're already in the Champions League. Exactly, yeah. So do you say, congratulations, Ange, now you could have a Champions League campaign next season? Or is that an Eric Ten Hag scenario? Obviously, we all know that Man Utd, they basically allowed Ten Hag to stay as manager

because they won the FA Cup, which was a disaster for them strategically. So do you... Should Tottenham... If they won the Europa, should they view it through the same Eric Ten Hag prism? I mean, it's an interesting thought experiment that has been basically completely ruined by the fact it's been played out in reality in May, in the summer, right? I just don't think they can make that decision based on one game, which is the mistake that Manchester United made last summer. And...

you know if we're comparing Andrew Postacoglu and Eric Ten Hag as managers I mean I think your instinct might be well Postacoglu's obviously better but actually if you're comparing the CVs and who's operated at a higher level and whatever you know Ten Hag won a trophy with Manchester United a true trophy story with Manchester United

He won the Dutch League twice. He got Ajax, the Semis, the Champions League. Right. I mean, you know, he's operated at a pretty high level. I mean, maybe at best you put them even. I just feel like it would be a mistake to make the decision on the basis of that one game and get caught up with the emotion of that. But I suspect, like, if that hadn't happened last season at Manchester United, it's the kind of situation where you could... It feels like something Daniel Levy would have done in 2009 or something. Like...

You've sacked a manager at half-time. You've sacked a manager after he's got you to the Champions League final. You could sack a manager immediately after he's ended your trophy drought. It definitely feels like that's in the playbook. And I think it might be the right decision. I'm not saying it's the wrong decision. I don't think you shouldn't make that decision on the basis of that, I don't think. It would be hard. You have to look at that data set that you just mentioned there, Jack. The body of work from...

July 2013 through to whenever it is they're making that decision. You can't just look at just that one competition, just that one game.

I think it's difficult emotionally if Spurs were to win the Europa League. And you're right, it's not impossible. They've got difficult games coming up against Eintracht and then probably Lazio. In both cases, they play the second leg away from home, which I think is huge in the era of away goals not counting double. They've got a very difficult path even to any final where they might...

run into the hosts of that final. But even if they did win it, and of course then I'll be explaining, mate, I'll be screaming at the rooftops, give him a 10-year contract, make him a freeman of the city of London, allow him to herd his goats down Regent Street, whatever it is that that brings to you. But the truth is that the rest of what we've seen just doesn't inspire that kind of long-term confidence.

There's another question here. And I don't know, I apologize if this is actually on the running order, but I do want to get it in because I know people have asked, do you think they have a better chart? Do you think the best way to win the Europa League is with him or with a different manager?

Well, I'm afraid the answer to that is really prosaic, isn't it? It would depend who the other manager was, wouldn't it? Yeah, quite. Any other realistic manager, I think, is the question then, isn't it? Oh, not me then. No. We know the answer to that. Or to phrase it differently, do you think...

Because I know that some fans have said, well, they should change the manager now, get somebody else in for Frankfurt, and then maximise the chance in the Europa League. Are you sympathetic to that line of thought or not? Not really. It's attractive, the idea that somehow somebody could come in and whip, either with a whip or a magic wand, I don't know which is appropriate, with a magic whip could suddenly turn the...

we see at the centre of the team at the moment into something else. Yes, of course, we've seen a new manager bounce, but also there's the example of Ruud van Nistelrooy where you get new manager splat. No, I don't think... For me, no, that's not the answer. Let it play out the way it's going to play out and I hope it plays out with Spurs hoisting that trophy to the Bilbao sky with all of us in a pub nearby because we couldn't get tickets. Yeah.

But I don't know. It's an attractive idea that somehow you can revolutionise these things, James, but not for me. Yeah, I think you're right. I can see why people think it. And I have sort of toyed with that thought myself. But I think, I mean, I think what you say about the splat is right. I think we get more splat than bounce these days, not at Spurs in general in the Premier League. Like I think you see way more managers come in mid-season and it does not work at all.

I mean, David Moyes would maybe be the exception at Everton this season. But beyond that, I can't think of... Well, Muret at Southampton, my goodness. Right, Muret at Southampton and Van Nistelrooy at Alesso. As you mentioned, clearly both squads are not Premier League squads. No, they're not. But it's very different situations. But...

I mean, they've not really been able to kind of muster anything there at all. You know, and there have been other examples in the last couple of years where it just hasn't worked and teams have kind of rattled through multiple managers. Like Nathan Jones. Right, exactly. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's just felt like when a team has been doing really badly that...

changing the manager hasn't really been able to kind of complete that mid-season hasn't been able to completely kind of change the course of the club I mean even if you look at when did Nuno go in at Forest like obviously like they improved immediately like back in the last season but then they kind of dropped off a little bit again and it kind of took a summer to kind of properly ferment his kind of plan his system or whatever

They look a completely different team this season to the back end of last season. But Nottingham Forest are the example which Spurs have to look now because if we sound despairing here, not the manager, but the club, you can finish 17th one year in the Premier League and you can finish in the Champions League places the next. I mean, it's unusual, but it can be done. And let me tell you, I've seen the numbers. It's actually one of our Brighton pieces on The Athletic today. Forest are at the bottom of all of the injury rankings.

Injury tables, Premier League injury tables. Brighton are top of both, by the way. Spurs are not top. No. So, you know, and they're not playing all these midweek games. And obviously not playing with the same intensity. So all those things kind of go hand in hand. Sure. I'm not suggesting Spurs should go back to intentionally playing one game a week and playing Nuno ball. But clearly it's working for them.

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The international break is upon us. We're recording just before Son and Yang feature for South Korea against Oman in their World Cup qualifier. Spurs have got 17 players away and 13 left back at Hotspur away. Is there anything we should be looking out for here? Bergvall perhaps starting for Sweden? I don't know that he's started yet. I think he's got four caps. I'm not sure he's started. And also what...

What happens, Jack? What happens with the 13 who are left at Hotspur away? Do they combine with a load of children and play practice matches? Well,

Well, I imagine they'll get a few days off because Tottenham don't play again until early April. Because that first weekend back after the break is FA Cup weekend. So they've got a lot of time. My guess, I don't actually know for certain, my guess is that they'll have a good few days off at the start of this week. They'll probably be back in now. And, you know, there'll be enough kids that they can play with. By which I mean like under 18 and 21 players, not actual children. Yeah.

And yeah, it's just all about building them up for that huge April. Tomorrow, France and England's under-21s play. We could see Wilson, Odderbeer, Mathias Tell up against Archie Gray, depending on where Archie plays tomorrow.

Um, Christian, uh, Romero, uh, if it, and Rodrigo, Rodrigo Benton, um, they face off in Montevideo, uh, tomorrow, very late at night. I thought there's a reasonable chance of them injuring each other. Isn't there in that fixture? Um, the long forgotten who he, Mikey Moore, um, should be in England's under 19s against Turkey on Saturday. Um, uh,

And we'll see. I don't suppose that they'll be starters, but Dogi and Vicario will be involved, or at least on the bench for a massive game in the Nations League quarterfinals between Italy and Germany. I guess that takes us to the end of the road for today, everybody. Looking forward to international football, James? Nope. Thank you very much indeed. My pleasure. Looking forward to international football, Jack?

Yeah, I'm about to go and drive to Hotspur Way, where Tottenham train for the Thomas Tushall and Harry Kane press conference. I'm a bit worried about the drive, Danny, because I never really drive on the motorway. I don't have any experience. I should explain to new listeners who are joining us, it's called By the Thousands every week.

Jack only passed his test a year ago. Passing your driving test in your mid to late 30s is exactly the right thing to do, is what I did. But of course they don't take you out on the blinking motorways. I use the car a fair bit but I generally just drive around South East London at 10 miles an hour. Yeah, 4 miles an hour in

Yeah, absolutely. Well, good luck with making it. Thank you very much. I hope I make it in one piece. Well, no, you have to make it in one piece, Jack. What would we do without you? There's a simple question. What the hell would we do without you?

In the meanwhile, you've all been, you know how to get in touch as that was proved by the torrent of texts and emails and tweets and all the rest of it that we received in the last 48 hours. I hope we've answered some of your questions, by no means all of them. Thank you very much for joining us. And we'll be back again on Monday when we'll have many more things to discuss and maybe get around to answering more of your questions. Till then, of course, it's God bless you all and come on you Spurs. The Athletic.

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