cover of episode Djed, Super Jan and Spurs Women with Megan Feringa

Djed, Super Jan and Spurs Women with Megan Feringa

2025/3/27
logo of podcast The View From The Lane: The Athletic FC's Tottenham show

The View From The Lane: The Athletic FC's Tottenham show

Transcript

Shownotes Transcript

Go further with the American Express Business Gold Card. Earn three times membership rewards points on flights and prepaid hotels when you book through amxtravel.com. Whether your destination is a business conference or a client meeting, your purchases will help you earn more points for future trips. Experience more on your travels with Amex Business Gold. Terms apply. Learn more at americanexpress.com slash business dash gold. Amex Business Gold Card. Built for business by American Express.

Business taxes. We're stressing about all the time and all the money you spent on your taxes. This is my bill? Now Business Taxes is a TurboTax small business expert who does your taxes for you and offers year-round advice at no additional cost so you can keep more money in your business. Now this is taxes. Intuit TurboTax. Get an expert now on TurboTax.com slash business. Only available with TurboTax Live Full Service.

The Athletic.

Hello everybody and welcome to The View from the Lane, the Spurs podcast from The Athletic that doesn't wear sunglasses indoors. More about that later. Joining me, Daniel Kelly, are James Moore and Jay Harris. Today on the show, we're going to cover Super Jan Vertonghen and his decision to retire, how Spurs players got on and the rest of the international fixtures. We're joined a bit later by Megan Feringer to discuss the women's team who are on a terrible run just at the moment.

But first, let's get into an interview that caused a bit of a stir on social media this week and possibly in the real world as well. Jed Spence was speaking really at length over an hour on YouTube to Rio Ferdinand. And I hope I don't get this wrong. He's Sidekick.

on that interview program that they do together. Jay has put on his sunglasses indoors, just as Jed Spence was wearing them indoors for the interview, which I took because I'm a positive person to be an homage to Thelonious Monk. I actually did. Jay, you wrote an article then breaking down the talking points from the interview because

You rarely get such an in-depth interview with a player who's bang in the middle of his career and who seemed, I mean, laid back doesn't do it with Jed, does it? But he did seem keen to talk about himself. It's just not usual. What did you make of the interview? What are the points that you wanted to particularly pick up on? Are you sure Jed's not wearing sunglasses indoors because he's a big...

VFTL fan and he knows that I wear sunglasses and actually it's almost certainly that it's almost certainly that yeah you're right you don't often get players especially in the middle of the season talk about their club their manager so openly and I was trying to think why Spence decided to do it and I suppose that

so much has been written about him and what's gone wrong with him over the last few years, ever since, you know, he ripped it up for Nottingham Forest in the championship, that now that he's had three, four months in the team, he's playing exceptionally well. People are talking about him, you know, potentially getting a call up for England. He feels like now's an opportunity for him to sort of regain control of his story. Um,

So I found it really interesting, the stuff on Conte, which we'll get into shortly, the stuff about how he felt that lots of people have come up to him and said, oh, well done, you know, you've got your second chance at Spurs. But he thinks he never really got a first chance. And you could probably say that's a fair point to make. So I thought it was really interesting. It was good to see him articulate himself. And I think he grew into the interview. I think in the beginning he was maybe a little bit

I don't want to say sheepish, but yeah, just had to sort of become a bit more settled in that environment. And I thought it was a really interesting interview. Where do you want to start with the things he actually said? Well, let's start with... Well, let's start with Conte. We have to start with Conte. Yes, because you just said that, you know, people saying he got a second chance. The truth is he didn't get a first chance. Now, I'm not for footballers making excuses, but this fellow definitely has got in his locker, I was given no chance at Spurs for almost two years. Well, firstly...

He speaks about when he joined Spurs, he thinks he gave the club and the surroundings too much respect. And I think what he meant by that was, how old is Spence now? I think he's 24. So when he joined, he would have been 21. He'd never played at a higher level than the Championship. Spurs had just finished fourth in the Premier League.

And so he'd qualified for the Champions League. Kane was still there. Son was at his peak. And I think Spence was probably a little bit overwhelmed, although he didn't use that word. I think he was probably a little bit overwhelmed because you're going in, you're suddenly playing with the captain of England, the captain of France, the captain of South Korea. The levels have jumped up massively overnight, not just in terms of quality, but probably professionalism. So that probably took him back a little bit. And then he speaks about the infamous Conte injury

Jed Spence is a club signing. The club decided to buy him comment. And he says that it just shattered his confidence. You know, he'd come into Spurs off the back of a high of winning promotion to the Premier League with Nottingham Forest. He was in the championship team of the season. And then Conte's just basically...

kicked him while he was down, well not kicked him while he was down, but just, you know, taking a massive hit to his confidence, as you said. Kicked him while he was up. Kicked him while he was up, which is just completely unnecessary. And then Spence said he probably only had one conversation with Conte and said, I felt like whatever I did, that man wasn't happy about anything. Even if he did the right things, you'd think, did I do the right things? And obviously we know how Conte's time at Spurs ended, but...

I just think that's a really poor reflection of Conte as a manager, that he had a player within his squad who just didn't feel like he was particularly approachable, didn't know where he stood with him. He was a young 21-year-old and it sort of shows you that the right decision was made that Conte eventually left the club. James, have you seen or heard most of this? What did you make of it? Yeah, I've seen most of it, yeah. I thought it was pretty interesting. I was surprised to see there was so much...

kind of forelock tugging about it I didn't I didn't think there was there was much in there that was anything even approaching contentious I mean you don't often hear a current player talking about you know a working manager even if not his current manager in quite the way that Spence did but I don't really think you can be surprised given that comment and the way that's kind of gone down in Spurs history and has been kind of a tag on Spence for the last three years I

I don't really think it's a surprise that he said those kind of things about Conte and the rest of it I thought was all fairly you know fairly sort of complimentary of people he'd worked with and you know people at Spurs other people he'd worked with through his career so no I was yeah I thought it was interesting I just was surprised that people kind of seemed put out I don't know whether that was because

He was giving this interview on YouTube with Rio Ferdinand rather than, you know, on Sky with Patrick Davidson or whatever. But to me, it all seems, you know, pretty standard stuff. Well, yeah, and let's be truthful. It worked both ways, that, because Rio Ferdinand...

And while I'm loving most of what Jed's doing at the moment, it was like he was talking to Lionel Messi half the time, wasn't it? It was kind of a mutual admiration society going on. Well, they're both from... And I think that's why...

maybe Spence decided to do it with Rio Ferdinand because they're both from South London and you could tell that they're from a very similar cultural background and I think that probably is another reason why once he settled after five, ten minutes that he did open himself up and he started cracking a few more jokes, etc. I totally agree with that. That

If I was Jed Spence, like you, the very, you know, given how, how anything that said in interviews gets treated, you'd want at least to have a comfortable environment to start the thing in, wouldn't you? You know, um,

What do you have to say about Ange-Poster Koglu, particularly about this comment that Ange made about deliberately making life difficult? I hope I'm not misquoting him. I don't think I am for Jed Spence. No, that's right. That's right. Ange said that he had given Jed or Spence a few tests to see how he'd cope. That

That is right. Does he do that to everybody? I mean, I worry about this because why is he being picked on? No, that's not right. Selected for such treatment, you know, because... I think just to go on what Spence said and what Postacoglu said. So obviously Spence says football's not fair. He'd gone on loan to...

at the end of his first season. The second half is his first season with Spurs. Didn't particularly enjoy it. He didn't settle...

with the French culture. He was in a hotel for three months and then he was in an Airbnb. There was a lack of available accommodation. He didn't particularly like the food, but he returned that summer, Poster Coghlu's first season, thinking that he'd get a chance and he felt like that just never happened. And that's where he said that thing, I never really got the first chance when people talk about having a second chance. And I don't completely buy Poster Coghlu's comments about

challenging Jed and giving him tests etc because I think we can all agree that pretty much since the 1st of January or maybe even the middle of December when he started against Southampton for the first time Spencer's been Tottenham's best performer probably alongside Lucas Bergvold it's one it's one of those two right so this idea that for the first half of the season you just leave such a an elite player on the bench barely give him any minutes because you want to test him

I just don't completely buy that. I don't think it's a sensible decision to make because you could easily have alienated him. The reason Spence got an opportunity is because a doggy was injured and needed a break and Spence filled in. And even if

And Spence only got that opportunity because Van de Men and Romero were injured, so Archie Gray went to centre-back. Sort of fortuitous circumstances that put Spence into the starting XI. Spence had run out of players. Call it what it was. I don't think it was this grand master plan of, oh, I'm going to test him, see how he reacts, and then when he shows me what I want to see, I'm going to put him in. I don't think it's quite like that. So I understand why maybe some fans have heard what Spence has said about Posse Kocken and thought, oh, he didn't really need to say that because he's had...

a bit of a subtle dig at him. Well, it's not really subtle, is it? He's had sort of a bit of a dig at him, saying he didn't give him a chance. But from Spencer's perspective, I completely understand why he said that. And he would have been inauthentic if he said, if he didn't speak the truth.

And we don't want footballers to be inauthentic. I absolutely agree with you, though we do tend to put them in positions where you can understand why they're cautious at the very least. Of course. We should say, by the way, as well as that, he does also speak quite positively of possible football in particular in the way they play. Yeah. And he definitely prefers it to Conte. Conte not only sounds like...

a difficult taskmaster, but Spence was basically saying that his training sessions were boring, very repetitive. Whereas we know that Postacogli's got this unyielding commitment to his philosophy, but at least he does mix things up in training and tries to do different things, which I thought was quite interesting. Another interesting thing that came out of it, James, and sometimes we...

We can't know what's going on in dressing rooms because, you know, that's just not a privilege that we're allowed. Interesting that when they questioned him, well, there are two things. For the second interview running, he did that other one. I can't remember who it was with, possibly on Sky, where he couldn't name another fullback that he thought was any good. He did it again this time around. He just, you know...

there's me and then there's nobody else. I don't mind that attitude, provided you're playing really well. But when he was asked who helps him at Spurs, and it's a name that keeps cropping up in these sort of tangential conversations, James. James Madison once again appears to be somewhat of the glue in the Spurs dressing room.

yeah I mean it's definitely interesting that isn't it because despite him having been one of the vice captains last season and in age terms actually yeah what is he like 28 he's one of the veterans of the squad he's actually one of the older players in the squad yeah yeah you don't really think of him as being like a leader in that way um

But it does kind of serve as a reminder that we kind of see what happens on the pitch and the body language on the pitch and the way players interact on the pitch. And we can have a concept of a player leading by example on the basis of what we see on the pitch. But we don't see, you know, what happens on the coach on the way to the game and what's happening on the training ground beyond what we see on social media, the little snippets we get. And like, you know, the way...

Madison interacts with players like if he you know he seems like a kind of quite a gregarious bloke you can imagine him being incredibly involved in all the little social groups and I'm sure he dips into the you know you see him on his Instagram story

messing around with Pedro Porro and winding up Pedro Porro who we know is in the kind of Spanish speaking slash South American clique the one and one phrase so you can kind of imagine this guy kind of dipping in and out of all of his little groups and kind of acting as like you said the glue that kind of brings that together and those like social elements actually are are important to the success of a team definitely like the sense of unity in a team like you're not really going to get anywhere with

a group of individuals who have no emotional warmness towards each other. It's just not going to work like that. No, no. Sports teams, groups in an office, any group of people who see themselves as a team, the dynamics of it are always incredibly invisible often to the outsider. The quietest person may have a load of influence. The local loudmouth may be ignored by everybody in the heart of hearts.

I have some experience with the latter. No comment, yeah, no comment. But it was just fascinating to hear that it's Madison who has kind of chivvied him along, or that's the person he chose to name as having chivvied him along. ♪

Welcome back to the View from the Lane. Bear with me here. I'm going to do a scouting report. Argentina played their second international fixture against Brazil earlier this week. It was 4-1 to Argentina, who had already qualified for the World Cup because one of their rivals had lost earlier in the day, or drawn to be absolutely precise. So what I did, it was midnight or two o'clock. The game was on Europe, you know, GMT. And I sat there with a cup of tea and for reasons unknown,

to do with Spurs I decided I would just really try and watch the game around Christian Romero I did it as though I was a scout not you know seeing a teenager but someone who knew there's this you know excellent footballer what's he doing would he suit before us rest of it very odd thing was I actually learned something about Spurs I think from the game itself but let me just tell you about what Christian if you were a scout and I made a whole sheaf of notes here as I went through the evening the game started and at

Argentina were brilliant. They were two up in the first 15 minutes. And this is an Argentina team who are already the world champions, twice winners of the Copa America in succession, but playing without Di Maria, without Lautaro Martinez, and without Lionel Messi. They were still outstanding. And in a way that I think actually lights the way forward for Tottenham Hotspur. I'll come back to that. Central to all of this was their centre-back, Christian Romero, who...

Playing a little bit less high line than he does at Spurs was... I mean, it was... I know I was concentrating on him. He was brilliant for the first 20 minutes. He...

If you were watching him for the first time, you'd say, but this fellow never, ever runs. He walked from one important position to another, to another, to another, did his tackle, won his header, and then passed the ball out. Argentina got two up, and the first signs of Christian doing something is he did a sort of back flick.

on his own goal line, admittedly not on the goal, outside the penalty area. And you thought, what, he's showboating 20 minutes into an international against your traditional local rivals. A couple of minutes later, Argentina were playing out from the back. Christian Guttman received the ball in the right centre-back position.

and I suppose fans will know what's coming next. He looked left, he looked right, he shifted the ball to the outside of his right foot, then to the inside of his right foot as he selected the exact delicious, humiliating pass with which to skewer the Brazilian midfield. Mateus Cunha said, I'll tell you what I'll do though, I'll close you down. Took the ball off and then lamped it into the net past Emi Martinez. It was an absolute shit show by Cristian Romero. It would have been brilliant at that moment.

After that, he recovered and played really, really well. But there was that exact, you've all seen it with him. He can be absolutely brilliant for 89 minutes and then switch off for a second. I don't know what he was doing for the Brazilian goal. My final word on this, and I'll get your comments on it now, please, is that

Christian Romero's skill set is so unique, added to his personality, that if I was a scout for one, you know, a club who fancies themselves bigger than Spurs, I'd be saying, go and get him. Spurs need to do absolutely everything they can to hang on to him. And I know he's annoying and I know he's criticising the club and all the rest of it, but there just isn't a player like that out there. That was my, I was trying to be subjective about it and that's what I came up with.

I don't think anyone would dispute that he's an incredibly good centre-back and also that he has the kind of USP of that distribution, those line-breaking passes from the back that very few of any other players in world football can play. But if he's not going to sign a new contract and he has two years left...

do you then have to make a decision if there are proper bids in the summer? I guess that's the question. Well, let me ask you the question then, James. What's a proper bid? In a world where Southampton, without giggling into their sleeves, are saying they need 100 million for dibbling. Yeah, I mean, I would rally back with the suggestion they're not going to get that money. I mean, I...

I think if Spurs were receiving offers of like £80 million for Romero, I think that might be the sort of point at which it becomes a conversation. It also depends if there's a market for him. If only one team wants to sign him, then the amount of money that Spurs can ask for is reduced. And it also depends if he wants to go. If he's made it clear that he doesn't want to be at Tottenham anymore, it's harder for Spurs to demand a significant amount of money. Jay, you...

You haven't seen him play other than... You've hardly seen him play. What was your impression before you got on the Spurs beat? And what's your impression of what he's done, particularly in some of his comments, since you became Spurs u-bizarre? My impression of him before I started covering Spurs was that he was a loose cannon because...

Every time I heard him mentioned, he was always in some sort of controversy, whether it was pulling Kukerea's hair, although I know he technically got away with that at the time. And then I think he got retrospectively banned, right? I don't think he did. Or maybe he didn't. Fair play. But yeah, the Kukerea hair pull, the red card against Chelsea. He always seemed to be...

pushing and shoving everybody and getting involved in frackers when he didn't need to. And then, you know, my impression of him this season is that when he has been available, he's not played particularly well. And I'll talk a little bit about why that could be. But firstly, you know,

Opening day of the season against Leicester City, he leaves Vardy unmarked at the back post. He steps up when the rest of the defence drops off in the defeat to Newcastle. He loses Gabriel in September's North London derby. After the game, there's all these rumours going around on Argentinian media that he wasn't happy with the travel arrangements. I think he loses Welbeck when Welbeck scores.

in the 3-2 defeat to Brighton. So there were lots of examples where the vice-captain, this star player, this World Cup winner, was falling below standards. But to give him some leeway,

There was a FIFPro report which came out about how much players travelled in the 2023-24 season and Romero was at the very top. So according to FIFPro, he travelled a total distance of 163,000 kilometres over 211 hours. So that's

that obviously is going to have an impact on someone's physical, mental and emotional state. And we already know that after he won the Copa America, he was back for Spurs' pre-season within three weeks. So not only is he travelling loads, he's just not getting even a break in the summer. You obviously spoke about how you'd like him to stay at Spurs. I understand your reasoning for that. I'm going to

counteract that say his availability is pretty bad maybe not pretty bad but it's not great

It's pretty bad. I think that's safe to say. Between suspensions and injuries over the last two seasons. Probably played 50% of the games. Am I exaggerating? I have the exact figures, my friend. So this is some rough mathematics. Hang on, is that exact figures? Well, well, well. One sentence. Exact figures. But I know it's basically me counting games on transfer marks. So I'm sure someone will come back and say, oh, you're one game out. All right.

But from my research, my top of the range research, since the group stage of 2022 World Cup,

He started 27 out of Argentina's 32 games, including friendlies, and that's 84%. In his entire time at Spurs, he started 94 out of 143 league games, which is 65%. And he's only appeared in more than 30 league games once in a single season across four years. Wow.

They're not particularly good figures at all. So it's over 50%. But, you know, you look at other centre-backs like Van Dijk, Saliba. Don't look at Van de Ven. Look at somebody else. Don't look at Van de Ven. But look at other centre-backs like Van Dijk and Saliba. I'm pretty certain they played every single minute for their teams this season and possibly did last season as well. That availability is crucial. And...

It's fantastic that Romero's got that ability to play those line-breaking passes. But if he's not playing as regularly as his peers, then that's a bit of a problem. Yeah, well, that's why... Well, it's not a bit of a problem. It is a problem. It's a problem, yeah, it is. And it's also the reason why I wonder whether clubs might be

justifiably reticent to say, what, 80 million? And you can't be, because Real Madrid are looking for second backs because theirs are always injured. You know, and they would be adding to that problem, it seems to me. Although the thought of him and Rudiger at the back is filling me with dread, actually, although I suppose it might be in the Champions League. They might get to play against Real Madrid. We shall see. When was the last time Romero got sent off, by the way?

I guess he's not played that much to get some drop. It must be Chelsea, right? It must be that Chelsea one last season. I can't say that. I don't think he got a second one last season. Because there are games where, and he did this against Fulham, where he just randomly decided to follow Jimenez up the pitch and just clattered him right on the touchline. And it was so unnecessary. And you do fear sometimes that he's a bit of a walking...

red card and that the red mist could descend on him at any point maybe i'm being unfair certainly when i did troy parrot as well yeah exactly screamed in troy parrot troy parrot's face and shoulder barging one of my notes i didn't read all the things there was a moment in the first half where he and venetius jr were in close proximity the ball went to the other end of the pitch the next thing you see venetius jr lying in a heap

on the pitch. Now, look, there was a collision and Vinicius did absolutely exaggerate what had happened. But the Premier League, the VAR people might easily have said, well, what's he doing running into, you know, 20 yards off the ball anyway?

But different news, and Jay, I'm sorry, you'll have to give us your recollections here from a distance, is that the great, and I'm using that word without any fear or any inclination to apologize, the great Jan Vertonghen has decided that

that he can no longer keep playing professional football when he's dependent on painkillers for various injuries. And he's going to retire at the end of the season in Belgium. A few more games to go. Over 300 games for Spurs. Infinite internationals for Belgium. One of Belgium's all-time greats and all the rest of it. But

I think, James, we have to mourn his retirement from the game because he was a great player in the best Spurs team of my lifetime. Yeah. One of the best defenders I've seen at Tottenham. Yeah.

I mean, I think there's probably like an instinct to pair him with Alderweireld and talk about that partnership. But we probably should sort of do him the respect of speaking about him kind of in isolation rather than as one of a pairing. That first season he played for Spurs, I was very excited by that signing. He was in that kind of bracket of kind of quite exotic players that you'd kind of heard of and seen play a bit in kind of Champions League games and internationals and stuff.

And he had a pretty big reputation. That definitely felt like a bit of a coup that Spurs were able to sign him in 2012. And in that first season, he was unbelievably good. Like for a centre-half. I mean, earlier in the season, we were wetting ourselves about Mickey van der Ven's run at Old Trafford. Yes. I think I've mentioned on the podcast after that, that Wotonga did a very similar thing

in a game at Spurs when I was drafted in 2012 where he actually scored the goal himself kind of cut inside and I think it was a deflected shot into the bottom corner but you know we'll disregard that but he's kind of had that running power that I don't think I'd seen in too many centre-backs or certainly not at Spurs

I mean, he wasn't Van de Ven paced, but he had the power of running to carry the ball out the pitch. And I don't know if you remember a goal he scored at Swansea in that season, where he kind of burst through the pitch with the ball, exchanged passes with Bale. Bale kind of flicked this ball over the top of the centre half, and Vertonghen just went around and rifled this shot into the back of the net.

but as I was kind of alluding to earlier, in his second season, he really, really dropped off, and if you remember, he's getting quite a lot of criticism, he was criticised by Tim Sherwood, who was manager at the time, but also, do you remember a game at Liverpool, they lost 4-0, and before the game, Vertonghen was in the tunnel, and he was in the tunnel,

He was leaning against a wall in the tunnel at Anfield and Glenn Hoddle on TV was suggesting that he had a terrible attitude because he was leaning on a wall. And this guy, I think it was Sherwood who said he couldn't defend. He'd got completely ripped to pieces. And this is kind of my point about Udogi. And yet Pochettino comes in and in his third season he goes back to being incredibly good and then in the fourth season joined by...

older Vareld and you know suddenly looks like one of the best players in the division like you know those it's probably a lesson that you shouldn't judge a player on their worst season I mean he was there for eight years um

And with the exception, you're absolutely right, of course, that second season where, you know, the settling in, the excitement is gone and it wasn't as good. Let's be honest about that. But he was hard to get. I mean, here's a man who the two biggest problems he caused at a football club in eight years. One, he leaned against a wall at Anfield and two, they couldn't get him to come off when he clearly had a concussion injury.

I mean, I'd settle for that in most footballers, but the quality of his play as well, that left foot, that game against Dortmund, and there were others where he played left back or left wing back and was just brilliant. I loved him. I must be honest. I loved him. But the thing is, James, here's the ultimate test. The next time he's in the stadium, presumably he's going to get cheered to the rafters because, you know, players come, players go. We all know that. But...

and you'll be the first to tell me if I'm wrong, he really is a copper-bottom Spurs legend, isn't he? Yeah, yeah, I think so. He's obviously a very popular guy. He seemed to really, really love the club. And, you know, I was talking before about how...

was kind of social glue in this group, or so it seemed. And he was definitely like a very popular player with the players as well. Can I just share one thing I've remembered? I've just scrambled through my own Twitter account to find this and annoyingly, because it was on Vine, it's disappeared. So I don't know if there's any way that we can ask our old mate Elon Musk to kind of revive this thing. The Musk of sorts, the Musk of sorts, don't worry about it. This clip must exist somewhere. I mean, I've obviously broken copyright by sharing it on social media 10 years ago.

Right, 2014 World Cup, Belgium, I don't know who they were playing against, it would have been one of their group games, I guess. But Jan Vertonghen took a free kick and absolutely hammered it, wellied it, and it went way over the bar and hit someone in the crowd. Now, what replica shirt was that person wearing? Arsenal. There you go. That's how much Jan Vertonghen loves to wear. That is brilliant. He forewent a goal in the World Cup to hit this bloke in an Arsenal shirt in the crowd. LAUGHTER

That's not where that story was. It's not where I was expecting that story to go. You now made me open up on my retro Twitter. This is on 6th February 2020. I don't know what happened to him. I don't know Jan Vertonghen. I've never met Jan Vertonghen. So how come I wake up this morning desperately wondering if he's okay?

you know, he, he was, and the day he left, I said, um, fucking pandemic, robbing fans of the chance to say proper farewell to heroes, legends, and old friends. Today will be the last day we see this one, picture of a Tong in a Spurs shirt. Thank you for everything. Um,

I don't think I could have, I couldn't have regarded him anymore, actually, as a footballer. I also thought he probably left a year too early. Because if you're good enough to play for Benfica, you're certainly good enough to play for Spurs most of the time at centre-back. Yeah, I mean, I think him leaving was kind of, I think he said this afterwards, that that head injury he got in that Champions League game was something that affected him for quite a long time. Way into next season when Pochettino left and Mourinho took over.

And he did have another quite big dip in form that season, was out of the team. Yeah, and I think after he'd gone to Benfica, he kind of suggested that was part of the reason. And yeah, you're right. I mean, he played for Benfica in the Champions League for two years after that. So I think it's probably safe to say he could have maybe been kept around a bit longer. Yeah, welcome back, everybody, to the third and final part of this edition of The View from the lane. Now...

I don't want to be adding fuel to any fires or anything, but Spurs' women's team lost to West Ham last weekend. Their sixth defeat on the trot. Joining us now to talk about their form and their league campaign. She helped us at the start of the season to try and understand what was going on. It's Megan Faringa. Tell us where Spurs currently are, Megan. I mean, obviously a run of six defeats tells us a lot of the story, but not at all. What is going on? It's...

It's pretty grim, I'll be honest. Sorry, like, obviously, everyone wants to have some positivity when it comes to that. First of all, welcome, Megan. Welcome back and thanks for helping us out. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, I'm happy to be back. I wish I was bringing better news. But yeah, Spurs women are in a bit of a slump at the moment. They sit ninth in the WSL.

which is pretty remarkable considering they've lost six games on the try or five league games on the try. They lost a FA Cup match to start the whole, the whole thing. But things aren't, they just aren't looking good. And a lot of,

a lot of behind the scenes stuff, people are pretty upset. They're not happy, but they're also just trying not to panic because two years ago they did realize like what it's like to be in total disarray and total chaos. And they don't feel like they're there yet. They just feel like they're in a,

in a period of decline, but they're not in a period where they should panic. So that's sort of the summary, if you will. Yeah, but they're somewhere on the vibes roller coaster, aren't they? In your piece, when you're trying to get a grip on this, Megan, you do make the point that it was supposed to be a season of continued progress,

upward progress, if you like, you know, without necessarily challenging for the title or anything. And yet suddenly they find themselves in a, in a place where people perhaps without panicking feel they need to rebuild. How has this come about? Um,

Is it just that other teams have improved at a faster rate? Because, of course, the women's game is developing so quickly that maybe some of the patterns we experience in professional football elsewhere, shall we put it no stronger than that, don't apply here. Or is it something more fundamental about the team?

That that's a factor. There's other factors too, but that is a really big factor. So the thinking behind Tottenham Hotspur is that when the women's team reached the top four, then they would get, that would trigger more investment. The problem is, is that last season reaching the top four were

And then this season, it requires more like the goalposts move. And I don't think Spurs really legislated for that. So suddenly over the summer, you had Brighton who started to invest more. You had Liverpool who, well, not really. Liverpool really didn't do that. But anyway, you've got other clubs who are investing more. You've got Man United, Man City. So suddenly top four doesn't look as achievable anymore.

And then the other factor with that is that they actually lost quite a lot in the summer. So Robert Van Ham sort of put it as the investments that he made in the first season, he suddenly wasn't able to use those things in the second. So Grace Clinton is sort of the headline act for that. But Celine Bizet as well. If anyone's watched Manchester United recently, Celine has been like a starting player in that squad and has been really, really important to them. And I don't think Spurs expected that.

to one, lose her because she was on a short-term contract. That was before Andy Rogers came in and yeah, they lost her like to quite a terrible circumstance. But yeah, they didn't expect for her to be such a big loss. And then you have two backroom staff who also left, Zoe Matthews and Alexander Adams. They both got better offers from Gotham City and Leicester City.

And yeah, people just didn't expect that again before the season started. And so Robert sort of put it as like, those are people he invested in and suddenly he couldn't use them. And so it felt like a season that's supposed to be progressing suddenly was about trying to like maintain the balance.

Can I ask you a question? Sorry to take over, Danny. No, Jay, I've been praying for you to pipe up. I actually want to ask you too, Megan. Firstly, why did Becky Spencer join Chelsea? Because...

Obviously, she's been at the club for quite a while and was established. She lost her place earlier this season, but anything more, that would be really, really interesting. And then I said on the pod the other day, but they've got the joint second worst record in the league for goals conceded. Is there anything particularly that they're doing wrong, which is just contributing to that? So Becky Spencer is just...

It's Chelsea like that that's kind of the end all and be all it when the league champions perennial league champions come and ask you do you want to come and play with us there's a potential you might get a Champions League game here there the money is also going to be better yeah you would just say yes and that's exactly why Becky did it like.

The opportunities there while she's going to probably be sat on the bench way, way more, it's still Chelsea. So you're going to take that exception. And that's something that Spurs are very aware of. So like, I'm going to answer the second question too about the leaky defense because it is pretty terrible. But one of the things that I've heard from sort of

the people around it is that they're really cautious or they're really concerned about building an environment and a culture at Spurs that would entice players not only to come but to stay. And at the moment, they can't compete with Chelsea or Arsenal or even City. So let's say they wanted to go buy Naomi Gurma, for example, and go throw a million dollars at it. They could. But their thinking is that why would just a million dollars make her want to come? So that is the overall problem that they're seeing.

Whether or not people agree with that, you know, that's up for debate because there is potential holes in that logic. But that's their overall thinking. As for the defense, it kind of just goes back to the philosophy that Robert Villaham wants to play with, which is he wants to play out from the back and against teams like City, Arsenal,

Chelsea, Manchester United in the last five games they've played three of those teams and they've conceded goals within the first 15 minutes so like that is the big problem is that they start really really terribly and that like the relationships in the back line are just not there they've put a lot of changes in Lisa Kopp's coming in January to sort of replace Becky Spencer she's been much better but yeah that the start to the season defensively they were they were really terrible

without wanting to suggest there may be problems all over the pitch. I mean, I know Bethany England is injured at the moment, right? But also Martha Thomas, how...

She's not as good at all this season, is she? She's underperformed. And that's the other problem too, is that last season, a lot of players did overperform. And now this season, they're not really clicking in the attacking sense. But also, Grace Clinton and Celine were hugely important. So I think in the piece, I put that both of them were responsible for the second most number of goals. And I think Celine led...

the team or joint led the team and assist. So you just suddenly lose your two most creative players. And Walspers did try to recruit. They got in, you know, Hailey Resso. They got in Ella Morris, Mate Orath from Real Madrid. Those weren't necessarily players that directly replaced those three players. And then Kit Graham got injured in the summer and preseason. Olivia Holt in January came in. She's supposed to be kind of like the replacement for Grace Clinton. They're really excited about that, but she's still young and she's coming off injury. So

again, it goes back to this idea of like, were, were they a little bit naive in terms of how much rebuild this would take? And I think the answer is potentially yes. I don't think any of them, well, I know that none of them expected it to be this difficult this season. They knew there'd be challenges, but no one expected this. Megan, this, this question might be trite or I might be pressing on, on something, you know, really important. Is that it,

Are there similarities in the failings of the men's team and the women's team? And do the managers talk about it?

So naturally there's going to be like, there's going to be conclusions drawn between the two and comparisons drawn between the two. And yeah, I mean, they both play the same philosophy. The club wants them to play the same philosophy. They're both struggling in sort of the same areas. Recruitment is still a big issue. So Spurs this season ranked in the bottom five for WSL teams that are investing in the first team squad. Sounds kind of similar to Spurs men who clearly have not invested in their first team as much as people probably want. So yeah, there's definitely, yeah,

There's definitely comparisons to draw and the managers do talk about it. I don't think they want me to share like, you know, what they're talking about or how they're talking about it and stuff. But, you know, when you're at a club together, you're going to have those conversations. So the two of them definitely, I imagine that they commiserate over some coffee or something, but they definitely share ideas and they talk about sort of their current existences at the club. Let's assume that the women's game is just as brutal as the men's game.

The Europa League possibility is keeping Andrew Postacoglu in a job, we suspect. What's keeping Robert in the job? So the idea with Robert is that when he came in, he was headhunted for the role. So Andy Rogers came in after. Oh, my gosh. Why am I blanking? Hold on a sec.

um, Rian Skinner, sorry. So Andy Rogers came in after Rian Skinner was sacked. And that point in Spurs' whole trajectory, that was considered like the nadir. You know, it was chaos. It was disarray. The entire plan needed to get gutted, thrown out the window. And so they rebuilt a plan and then they went and found Robert to fit into the plan. So they still think Robert is the guy to lead it. Um, the idea is that Robert's built, um,

quite a nice environment and a lot of players want to be there. Celine and Grace, when they left, they didn't want to leave. They both really enjoyed being at Spurs, but naturally it's like what we talked about with Becky Spencer, when the opportunity to go and play Champions League, to go play somewhere else arises, that's now the draw. But Spurs have built an environment under Robert that people love.

apparently really, really like. Lisa Kopp coming in January was a sign of that because Manchester United really wanted her in the summer and Spurs ended up kind of convincing her to come in January instead, which was seen as like a really big success for Robert. At the same time too, like Robert is under pressure because this season five WSL managers have been sacked since October. That's sort of unheard of in the WSL. So like pressure is mounting on these managers, but at the same time,

Spurs are sort of using, sounds silly, but like Aston Villa as an example. So Aston Villa brought in a new manager in the summer and he was sacked in December. They now brought in a new manager in January and she's lost six league games on the bounce. So if Spurs think they've done bad, Villa have potentially done just as bad, if not worse.

And Spurs are sort of looking at that as saying, maybe that's not necessarily what we need to do. We maybe don't need to rip up the blueprint just yet. So again, they're sort of comparing it to when the time when Rian Skinner left. Is everything in disarray? Is everything in chaos? They've decided, no, it's not. So they're going to keep Robert on board. They're going to have...

a really big reset in the summer apparently there's going to be conversations around recruitment yeah um it sounds pretty familiar and i know most fans are going to roll yeah sorry i was doing radio eye rolling there it's it doesn't work does it yeah audio eye rolling yeah yeah it's naturally it's a lot of it's a lot of words so until they back it up it's going to be interesting but robert is a very competitive man and he wouldn't he wouldn't stay in the role if he didn't feel like

there was something in it for him at the end of this season. What about the rest of the season? I mean, we've had a lot of discussions here on the View from the Lane about the Spurs men's team not being able to or whether they should kind of

pro the rest of the league season. What does the rest of the season hold for the women's team? What ought they be doing rather than because, you know, it's all very well saying we're going to have a reset. They've still got football matches to play. No, they've got five matches to play. I think most people are just looking towards the end of the season. Just kind of

hoping for it to end and this is also a problem with the WSL is that if you're not in the title race which most of the time teams aren't and you're not in a relegation battle which again most of the time teams aren't because it's usually the team that's just come up in the championship the rest of the season is pretty boring and this is kind of not to get into like more of a larger existential question but it's like sure why would people want to pay attention to WSL right now Spurs have lost six games or five games in the league and there's really no threat

at all to them it just means they might not get sixth or seventh which in the men's game potentially is a difference of what millions and millions of dollars for the women's games it's tens of thousands so it's a drop in the ocean um so right now what they're trying to do is just kind of stop the rot um try to find a bit of momentum to end the season be some positivity that's it which i know for fans is not exactly something that lights the fire but that's pretty much it

Okay, I guess, unless you can give us something else, but some joy to look forward to in all this. You've joined the downward vibes rollercoaster of the Spurs season.

Yeah, so there's positives. So Olivia Holt, when she's come in and she's come back from injury, she actually has been really impressive and she's been quite an exciting player. So there's positives there. Ella Morris has finally returned from injury. She was a player that they got from Southampton in the summer. She's made the England under 23s. A lot of people think she could be like England's next big centre-back. So there's something there. Zara Bailey is coming through their academy and she's a left-back. And again, people have her tipped to be England's left-back.

So and this isn't people from within Spurs. These are people within, you know, kind of like the England set up and around. So there is positives to take that they're actually they've got a lot of young talent coming. I say a lot. They've got some young talent coming through. That is quite exciting. I know it feels like I'm clutching at straws here, but I don't want to end this on such a negative. Exactly, exactly, exactly.

Thanks again to Megan for the last time. And, you know, that's the thanking is final, not her being here. But we'll be back in on Monday. There's still no games to talk about. I hopefully I'll be updating as long promised our vibes, rollercoaster Spurs musical charts. There'll be much else to talk about as well as we head into what is now

an ever more critical spell for Spurs. Thank you all for listening. Thanks to James and Jay for being here today. Remember, you can get in touch with us on social media at VFTL podcast. You can email us VFTL at theathletic.com. Till then, as all may say, I hope you're all well. And, you know, come on you Spurs, even when there's no Spurs to come on just now. The Athletic.