Monday Night Club: Liverpool lead the way & misery in Manchester
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Welcome to the Monday Night Club. It is the last one before Christmas. Not just the last one before Christmas, it is the last Monday Night Club of the year. And with me on tonight's show, Chris Sutton, Rory Smith, Clinton Morrison. Happy Christmas, Adam, to all of you. Happy Christmas. No, nothing. You can only lead to Chris and Rory. Christmas, Adam. Day before Christmas Eve. No? Adam came before Eve.

No, that completely went over my head. I had an awful moment where I thought all the lines were down and none of the technology was working. It's not that, it was just a bad line. Chris, eight Christmas trees. Or just because we're really slow? Well, there's that. I was hoping for something a little more lively, I'll be honest, ahead of tonight's show. Eight Christmas trees.

They've all been up now for six weeks. I'll be honest, mine's been up since the 1st of December and it's a little bit crispy already. How are yours bearing up? Yeah, well, we've got a couple of real ones and then we've got ones we put up every... We've got a good mix, Kelly. Normally we get them with a couple with roots on and then plant them in the garden.

So that's what we normally do. Yeah, so, yes, good. It's not, none of this is my plan, Kelly. It's all Sam. Sam decides what goes on in this house. How many Christmas trees. Don't say that. What you mean by that, Chris, is you make Sam do all the work and you go, well, I don't even care if we have a tree, so I'm not going to do any of the organising. That's how it works, isn't it? Well, what's happened is I just don't argue with her anymore. I used to in the early days. And now I just say, yeah, get on with it.

That's fine. No, it's Christmas. Does this mean you've got like some sort of like a Christmas themed forest in your garden? I wouldn't say forest, just a large woodland. Right. But it is a large woodland. OK, fine. Clinton, how are you getting on all this shopping done?

Yeah, my shopping's done. I did the last bits today, so yeah, all good. No, I can't... I'm looking forward to it, Kel, but I don't have eight Christmas trees. I only have two. We can't all be like Chris. Yeah, just the two. But it's a bit different, you know, because my kids are older. My kids are nearly adults, 18 and 17. So I'm in their Christmas spirit and stuff like that, but I loved it when they were younger and stuff like that. But they don't believe... Well, yeah, they do. Well, I can't say that, can I, on there? I was going to talk about... No, we've talked...

We've got a song for that on the show. You just need to watch Miracle on 34th Street if you want any proof of the fact that Father Christmas is real there. As well as having all kinds of festive fun, we are going to be discussing if Spurs are more Spurs-y than ever. I have a quibble with our definition of Spurs-y here, but we'll come to that a little bit later on. Brilliant Bournemouth, their remarkable journey to fifth place this

in the Premier League. Miserable Christmas in Manchester. Is it worse for Pep or is it worse for Ruben Amorim? Do you know, I was saving this for later, but I kind of feel it's

probably going to set the tone for the rest of the show. We have actually already had a festive email in. And Chris, it's all about you because you were very upset about not getting into the sexiest pundit list last week, I believe. Oh, well, I wasn't. I wasn't upset. I was just putting it out there that Mark was number four. Sexiest pundit. And Chris didn't make sexiest pundit. Don't tell me Robbie Savage made that then because no way am I having that. Yeah.

I don't think he did. I can't confirm or deny that he was on the list. But Joe in Nova Scotia has been in touch saying hopefully he can cheer you up this Christmas to show that you are still a global superstar. And he sent us a photo of the gents toilets at an Irish bar in New Glasgow, Nova Scotia, that has you and the 2005-2006 Celtic team right behind the urinals.

He said it's a bit weird when Chris and I make eye contact, but not sure Chappers or Rory would ever get on that wall. Kelly, can I just, just to clarify, um,

Is it behind the urinals, above the urinals, or is it behind the urinals so that's where you're aiming? Oh, wow. It is not a target. If you hit Chris, you've failed miserably and you should probably have a word with yourself. I would say that would be a fairly good sign that you shouldn't get served anymore at the bar if you hit Chris, given where it is in the picture. Yeah.

But on to the proper football and Liverpool played the last Premier League match before Christmas on Sunday afternoon. It was a thrilling and brilliantly entertaining 6-3 win at Spurs. They're four points clear of Chelsea in second and they have a game in hand. Is it their title to lose, Chris? No, no.

I don't think it's like that because of the nature and the strength of the Premier League. They will have a blip. What was remarkable about them on Sunday is they looked really refreshed and dynamic and powerful. And, you know, the scoreline flat at Tottenham in the end, it could have been double figures. It absolutely could. They were able to rest players in the week against Southampton. I think it made seven changes for the game against Tottenham. And that

That's a luxury in many respects, but it shows the strength and depth that they had. And, you know, I think I say this every week about Liverpool. Nobody saw this really coming. You know, this top of the Champions League, top of the Premier League. And it doesn't look like they're going to stop. Shall we put into context how significant it is then if you're top at Christmas? It's the 21st time six of them in the Premier League era that Liverpool have been top of the league on Christmas Day. That's more than anyone else ever.

In those 21 times, or in the 20 previous times, they've gone on to win the title in 11 of those seasons. Over the last 20 seasons, 13 times the team at the top at Christmas has gone on to win the title. So it's only just over 50% in both of those times. Does that give us a little bit of pause for thought, Rory? I think, you know, I was thinking this earlier. I think it depends kind of on the way you frame it. So Liverpool are obviously...

in the title race. Chelsea are not. Let's be clear. Chelsea want it to be known that they are not in the title race. I thought that was your declaration there rather than expressing Chelsea's point of view. I was being sarcastic about Chelsea. Liverpool are obviously in the title race. I suspect they're favourites of the bookies at the moment. They probably should be. They're four points there. They've got a game in hand, albeit the game in hand is... I'd be surprised if they weren't. Yeah, I don't know. I haven't checked, but I imagine that they are. Yeah.

They should be considered favourites at this stage, I think. But that's not quite the same as saying it's theirs to lose because they have only played 16 games. And if you look at the fixture list and stuff, it depends a little bit. The games you have away early on, the games you have at home, it can skew it slightly. I agree with Chris. I think they are obviously in the thick of it. It's far better than anyone expected. But I just...

Wish we could have a, you know, it doesn't strike me as being necessary to have kind of a sense of, well, if Liverpool don't win it now, they've bottled it. I think that feels like it's going that way. And I'm not sure that's fair. It's being set up for that, isn't it? It does feel that it's kind of being set up a little bit for that. But we're, as Chris would like to say, better than that. Or at least we like to think that we are in that circumstance. But Clinton, I just wonder, of the 13 times that the team top at Christmas in the Premier League era has gone on to win it,

Four of them have been in the last six seasons. It's all been Manchester City and City have been one of the teams who've been able to catch teams towards the top of the table as well or at the top of the table as well. So are our kind of perceptions of where teams are at Christmas a little bit skewed by the way Manchester City have performed in previous seasons?

Yeah, I think you're 100% spot on. I don't look at that, Kel, and see where teams are come Christmas because as Chris and Rory alluded to, there's a long way to go in the season. You can't say Liverpool are favourites at the moment. Yeah, they've been fantastic. The job slots are

gone in and done has been outstanding and I think everyone does want Liverpool to lose like where they're at the top and say they've blown it just like when Arsenal did it so nah I think there's a long way to go in the season and it's going to it's hard Arsenal are chasing Chelsea are title contenders Maresca can say what he wants but they definitely are but I think Liverpool win it and I know I

I come out and make that statement now, but I do think Liverpool will win. I think if they could keep everyone fit and healthy from now to the end of the season. I did the game yesterday for Five Live and I knew it. I said it before to John Murray because I said it live before. This game will be, and I don't know how I predicted it, I said it would be 6-3 because I know what Tottenham are like. They can score goals, but I also know they can score lots of goals. I promise you, Rory, go on. You need to start doing the BBC predictions.

Well, I will do it, Chris. I did call it. I called it 6-3. I did call it. Something told me it was going to be there. It was pure luck. But Liverpool were outstanding. I thought in that first half the midfield were frightening. It did feel a lot like a test to me yesterday, even though obviously Spurs have got huge injury problems and that has to be kind of thrown into the equation. But Liverpool had had not a blip. They'd disgracefully drawn two games and had another one called off.

And I think we all know that that should mean slots under intense pressure for his job. But, you know, they'd seen that gap that they'd built kind of end of November, start of December. It just whittled down a little bit. Perfectly naturally, you know, you draw a couple of games, you're allowed to draw games. It did feel like, you know, Arsenal got a big win on Saturday, then Chelsea stumble at Duddeson Park. And it did feel like a kind of test of, OK, if you're serious about this, you have to go and win this.

that game. And I think the way they performed in the first half, particularly, the second half was a bit silly. I don't want to be sort of grinchy about it. It was a bit of a silly second half, really. But in the first half in particular, that felt like... Define silly, then. Why was it silly? Inherently, I don't think football matches should end 6-3. I just, there's something about, I mean, as much as I'm delighted that Clinton got a prediction right, it just...

it felt it was too much fun football shouldn't be that much fun everyone was enjoying themselves the first half felt like a very much a kind of okay we are serious about this you know we have got this

We've got the, as Clinton says, the power, the energy, the drive and all those things that you need to win the title. Liverpool kind of showed them in that first half. Again, in what will be one of their most difficult games of the season. Spurs away is a difficult game. Let's talk about Tottenham. Let's go with you, Clinton, because you had been dying to get there. You've been itching to talk about them. They're 11th in the table. Top scorers in the Premier League. 39 goals from their 17 games.

So something's working for them at one end of the pitch, at least. Just on pure entertainment and, you know, leaving aside Rory's comments that football shouldn't be fun, are Tottenham fun? Yeah, they're fun. They're probably the most entertaining team in the Premier League. If you don't support them, but you just want to go and watch a game, go to Tottenham Stadium because you're guaranteed goals. Because at the moment, they have a big, the style of play, the way they're trying to play, I get it. Tottenham fans, they want a

attractive football but you can't keep getting attractive football and you're not even in the top 10 come Christmas you're not in the top 10 you want to be challenging to be in that top four it's been nowhere near good enough I get it there's injuries to Mickey Van Der Ven Romero Vacario the Spaniard team Benton Corden midfield is suspended because I watched them in midfield they're miles off it at the moment so I do get that they have injuries but everyone has injuries but the way they do

defend and the way they leave against, let me tell you something, Liverpool probably the best team in Europe at the moment and the big gaps that Tottenham enabled them and the way they play expansive football, it just, it made me upset, Kel, because everyone knows I've got a little soft spot for Tottenham. Everyone knows I've supported them as a kid, but slowly but surely, can I start supporting a new team? Because it's getting to that stage and I never thought I would say that because they're so frustrating to watch. They are good going forward. They can score goals, but

wow, they're entertaining them. The fans are not, they're not happy at the moment and it's been nowhere near good enough. Are you not entertained, Rory? What's wrong with fun? I like having fun. I think football matches shouldn't finish 6-3. The thing that fascinates me is I don't understand the frustration of the Spurs fans. So obviously Chris is not going to hear a word said against Ange Postard-Codlew. I'm not going to offer a word against Ange Postard-Codlew.

It must be infuriating for the fans to know how good Spurs can be. They can put four past Manchester City. They can effectively kind of force Manchester City's whole empire to crumble in one game.

And then it's probably not even a month later, is it? They're conceding six at home to Liverpool, having conceded four at home to Chelsea. And scored three and could have scored more. And scored three. Probably should have scored at 5-3 to make it 5-4. Yeah, that's absolutely right. Liverpool, as Clinton said earlier, probably should have scored 12.

But yes, they are great going forward. But what I don't know, what I'm not qualified to know is, is there a way of maintaining how good they are going forward whilst being more solid at the back? Is that possible? Or is Poster Toddly right that...

you kind of have to have... To have one, you have to have the other. That seems to be Ange's position. He does not seem to be of the view that he can solidify that defence in any way. It's all about the bigger picture for Ange Postakoglu, isn't it? But the one thing which I struggle to get my head around, and, you know, you talk about the injuries, and he's quite right to talk about the injuries, but I also think that...

That to go toe-to-toe with Liverpool when you have your best team, when you have Vicario in goal, when you have Romero as a centre-back, when you have Van de Ven as a centre-back, that's a risk. That's a big risk anyway. But when you have Fraser Forster with the greatest respect to Fraser, I think he's an excellent goalkeeper. But he's not great with his feet. And then you have Dragusin, who's young and slightly reckless. Then you have Gray, who's...

I don't know how many times he's played centre-half in his career before he'd gone to Tottenham, but he's a right-back, he's a midfielder. I do think that you are there to be shot at when you sit there, you know, I don't know whether hanging them out to dry is the right phrase,

But to go up against Liverpool in the manner which they did and not to protect those two centre-halves, I think that he does leave himself open for criticism. And, you know, I do love his stubbornness. And, you know, every time he's interviewed, people say, are you going to change? And he'll say no, because this is,

all about the bigger picture. I think they've lost 20 out of the last 42 games, 11th now, and it will become an issue. In the end, it's what Daniel Levy wants to put up with. Do Tottenham fans enjoy that wonderful, entertaining brand of football? But it also has its downside. Are Tottenham more likely to win a trophy playing that way?

I don't know, but then the pressure comes on to Levy to give Postacoglu the players best suited to playing that particular way. So there's, you know, this isn't just on Postacoglu, but the fact that Postacoglu...

was appointed and they would have known the style which he played, Postakoglu, you know, has got a strong argument to say, well, you've got to give me the tools to do that. And at this moment in time, the squad has stretched, but, you know, they haven't quite got enough. And those reasons and the fact that he is constantly asked about it might be one of the reasons that Ange Postakoglu sounded thoroughly fed up after Sunday's match. Credit to Liverpool. They were too good for us today. Yeah, they settled. Yeah, in great form, with great belief. And, yeah,

We kind of lacked a little bit of energy today, which I think is understandable and we paid the price. How much was that result down to Liverpool's performance? How much was it down to your team not getting into grips with the game today? As I said, Liverpool were good. And for the fans who are going home tonight, who will be very disappointed conceding six goals at home, what do you say to them? Because there are many people who love the way you play and

But then they see you conceding the number of goals like you've conceded today? I've said before, supporters can feel what they feel. So we appreciate their support and we look forward to the next game. Does a result like this, does it ever make you consider the way that you play? Because you are vowedly want to play the way you play. You've talked about that many times. Yes, I have. And I keep getting asked the same question. Are you able to give us an answer today after what's happened today? What makes you think the answer will be different? I don't think it will be, but I just wanted to hear that from you.

Well, no. You've asked the question and I've already answered it multiple times. And that was Andy Gillies asking the questions of Ange Postacoglu, who, I mean, Clinton, Chris just said it. Ange Postacoglu has said it repeatedly throughout his time as Tottenham manager. Andy has to ask the questions of him repeatedly.

Ange isn't going to change the answers and he's not going to change how Tottenham play. It doesn't sound that way anyway. No, he's not. But Chris is right when he says, don't try to go, even if you've got your best 11, you can't go toe-to-toe with Liverpool. You have to be sensible. And when you don't have your best 11, then you shouldn't try to go toe-to-toe. But he's not going to change. And you know what? He doesn't. He doesn't care about talking to the media. He don't want to keep people onside. Some managers like to keep the media onside. He doesn't care. He's getting frustrated. Some fans are...

you can see are disappointed but the majority of them were singing his name even when they were losing they were still singing his name so I understand it's frustrating because I do like Anjan I do hope he is successful but you've got to have a plan B surely and you can't be that open and we saw that from I think it was last season when they played Chelsea and they went down to 10 and they were still open and expansive football but

it does need help. Chris is spot on. I think Daniel Levy, for the way he wants to play, I think he could be successful. I think Daniel Levy has to help Ange. But the way he does his interviews, he's not trying to win over a lot of people, is he, Kelly? Let's be honest. He was at the beginning. I think he just feels that he can't answer the same questions in a different way. And it's difficult to ask different questions when the same things keep happening. So as Rory was asking, Chris, is there a way to,

for Ange Postakoglu to set Spurs up, remain true to the way that he wants to play football and at the same time protect a stand-in centre-half, protect an 18-year-old midfielder who's playing at centre-half for Tottenham? Is there a way of doing that? Yeah, Andy, I thought that was an excellent interview, Andy Gillies. They're legitimate questions. Everybody who watched the game, I mean, I was listening for the first five minutes in the car

John Murray and Clinton. And I nearly had a heart attack. You know, Fraser Forster trying to, you know, kick it out. It was a brilliant listen. But, you know, it's just madness. And, you know, all the time with the way Tottenham play. But I think, you know, he's not Dove. Could he coach a different way? Absolutely he could. But he doesn't want to. And that's his stubbornness really which...

you know, will end up being a problem. But there's... Who's the only team to beat Liverpool this season? Nottingham Forest. And, you know, Tottenham aren't Nottingham Forest, but how did Nottingham Forest do that? They're a sort of mid-block, low-block team and they ended up countering at the end and doing that to good effect. Could Tottenham do that with...

With the players that they have, I think they could. You could ask Sar and Bissouma to sit in front of Dragusin and Gray and just keep the full backs in position and you still have ball carriers and players who can get you up the pitch. You've got Madison, all these players can handle the ball. But you can set up a little bit differently, but that's not the way that he wants to do it. That's not the way he is going to do it. So eventually...

you know, Daniel Levy will have to, you know, we'll have to make a decision about, is this the way that he wants to go forward? And it is, you know, Antipasto is all about the longer term. If we keep doing this, if we keep doing that, we'll eventually get there. And that's his, that's his philosophy, but he's, you know, he's, he's not adaptable.

I saw a phrase today from a journalist called Stefan Bianchowski who covers the Bundesliga, which isn't relevant, but is just to give him due credit. And he talks about, he used the phrase post-results reality. And I think it's really interesting because there are now lots and lots of managers who will stand up in front of the media and no managers like talking to the media. The journalists are just doing their jobs. Be polite. That's not hard. Yeah.

who kind of will tell you, and Russell Martin had a little bit of this, that the thing you have just seen is not actually the thing that you've just seen, that actually what you've seen is a kind of vision of football that is uncompromising and is inevitable and you have to stay true to the ideology or it doesn't work. And in a lot of ways I agree with that. I think that fans pay a huge amount of money to go to football matches so they deserve to be entertained. I think that most teams don't win stuff. Fewer and fewer teams win stuff.

through the course of the season because the economic reality of football is so kind of stratified and you have to stand for something. You can't just be like, we're going to turn up and see what happens. Fans want to be taken on a journey. They want to believe in something. But at the same time, I kind of think you're probably meant to win a few games and you're maybe not meant to concede six goals at home. And it just strikes me, and I say this as someone who likes Pastor Codley, it's very odd that we've got ourselves into a position where we now look at management and a lot of people, probably me included,

quite often look at a manager saying, well, the thing that I've just done that led to us conceding six goals at home, that's the right thing to do. Does it,

It kind of isn't. Yeah, but you can set up differently against different teams. Well, this is it. You don't have to do it all the time. No, no. And that, I think, is the issue. So when you have superior players and you're confident your build-up play is better than the opposition's press, you can do that. But Liverpool, you know, I mean, everybody watching the game yesterday, you know, I know Clinton said it could have been 12, but it could have been.

And for, you know, a Premier League team, you know, to be in that position every time Liverpool attack. I mean, the criticism of Liverpool is they were wasteful, weren't they? So many incredible opportunities. So that is a problem. And, you know, it'll become a bigger problem the longer this goes on for Postacoglu. But I do think, especially when you're, you know, when you're playing, you know,

fringe players and you're putting them in one hell of a position.

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We've had another email in. They're flooding into the mnc at bbc.co.uk inbox. Hello, Monday Night Club. Can we discuss how extraordinary it is that Bournemouth might just sneak into European competitions? We're performing exceptionally despite badly missing Dominic Solanke, who has been back.

Before moving to Kentucky, I followed Bournemouth up and down the country to all the League One and League Two clubs. The position we're in right now is absolutely unbelievable. We're no way going to be able to keep hold of Ando Niaraule or our outstanding players. But for the time being, we are loving these unique times. That's from Peter in Kentucky. It is indeed heady days today.

for Bournemouth to discuss it. We are joined now by Geoff Hayward from the Back of the Net podcast. Geoff, I noticed you nodding along as we were reading out Peter's email there. It's incredible times for Bournemouth. This team has been cooking for...

Probably since about game 10 of last season, we went on a run last season in December that got everybody thinking, wow, you know, and we beat United 3-0 then. We've just done the same again, but also this season we've beaten Arsenal, we've beaten Manchester City for the first time ever in the Premier League, we've beaten Spurs, we've beaten...

United away for the second time 3-0 at Old Trafford. You know, we were a good side. Teams should be taking more notice of us. You are a good side. And it's also about kind of staying with Iral. I mean, Peter was already sort of starting to get a bit pessimistic about the future and said, we're not going to hold on to him. But there was a point at which the club sort of had to stick by him a little bit because there have been great moments. And then there was that dip, which more than come out of.

Well, it was the start of the season last year when his first nine games in charge. We had a tough start, but...

There was also two factors, really. One was the time that he'd had to work with the team was limited. And what you can see now is the benefits of having worked with the team for so long. All those players, still pretty much the same players that he had back then, were not afraid of anybody. And the fans could see that even in those first nine games, there were flashes where you thought, wow, this is different. This is going to be great when it clicks. And it did click. And

We are having the season of our lives this season.

but may not stop here. Watch out. Geoff, we're going to talk about what the future could hold for Bournemouth in just a second. Before we get there, I want you to give us the context of that because when we read out the email from Peter, he talked about visiting those sides in League One and League Two. Your first game, I think, was in 1971. So just give us a kind of potted history of your time supporting Bournemouth. The...

Vast majority of my time has been in Division 3 and Division 4. Fortunately, we never went out of the league, although many of you will remember minus 17 points when Eddie Howe kept us up. And look what Eddie Howe did in then taking us through the divisions to the Premier League. So, you know, we've had precarious times. I've been involved in...

numerous fundraising efforts for the club when we nearly went out of business. Geoff Mostyn, the former chairman, basically wrote a cheque for £800,000 that stopped us going under. And if he hadn't done that, we wouldn't be having this conversation. It's always been a precarious time. But I think when we started making progress under Geoff Mostyn and the people that were with the club then,

We got onto a firmer footing. There is a club that's actually, yeah, you know, we're small, but we're not unlike Brighton. We're not unlike Brentford. We're not like Fulham. We're punching above our weight. We're well run. We've got a great coach. We recruit well, and we're more agile than a lot of the bigger clubs. Like, I mean, Manchester United, you know, you've got Amarin who's come in there. He's got a massive job on to change that club and turn it around and

When Iriola came in to look at us after Gary O'Neill left,

it's it's different you know we're under the radar we don't get as much press attention it's not about instant results we gave him nine games and in fact we probably would have got longer we wouldn't have sacked him even even another five or six he probably still had so you get that sort of patience from the fans to turn it around and do your own thing and I think that's what's so refreshing what's so refreshing about the Premier League this season I mean you can

You've got to admit that it's much more fun than it used to be watching it this season because it's not about the big six. It's about clubs like us, clubs like Forest, punching above their weight, doing a brilliant job. Most of us are enjoying that fun. Most of us enjoy that fun. You might even start predicting we're going to win, Chris, soon. Well, I did, didn't I? I did at the weekend. I predicted you'd beat...

Manchester United because of last year because you've improved my prediction wasn't quite as good as Clinton's that's the first three points you've ever given us Chris I think in two seasons yeah but Geoff to be fair you don't underestimate how bad Chris is at doing those score predictions I tell you what Geoff you did mention about the importance to the team of Justin Cliver obviously scored on Sunday here he is with his thoughts on Bournemouth's current position

It's actually crazy, you know, but what I said, we are ambitious, you know. We would like to achieve great things with this club as an individual, as a team, and it's beautiful that we are in this position and that we like to keep, stay humble and just keep working hard to achieve those goals. OK, but you...

You've given me a glimmer of hope there to pin you down. Can Bournemouth qualify for Europe this season? You talk about aiming high. Can they qualify for Europe? Of course, of course. Why not? 100%. Jeff, you started off by saying there's more to come from Bournemouth. Is European football the next step?

You've got your passport handy. You must be going away tomorrow, Kel. That's why it's out. We're all looking forward to it. I think we've got a chance this season. It's going to be tough. But first half of the season has gone phenomenally well. And who's to say? We could definitely pick up one of those European places. The weird thing is, if we were more clinical in our finishing season, we'd be breathing down Liverpool's neck.

I mean, that's crazy, isn't it? It has just been an extraordinary season. Listen, enjoy it. And if it's European football next season, enjoy that too, Jeff. I know that you will. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having us.

Thank you very much to Jeff Hayward there from Back of the Net podcast. Really good to hear from him on how Bournemouth have been flying this season and almost, as Jeff said, flying below the radar as well, up into fifth place in the table as things stand. It is set to be, talking of Scrooge, a miserable Christmas in Manchester. City are in seventh place.

It was their ninth defeat in 12 games. They lost 2-1 at Villa on Saturday. United in 13th. That's their lowest league position at Christmas in Premier League history. They lost 3-0 at home to Bournemouth for the second successive season. So given the relative expectations around each club at the start of the season,

Who has it worse at the moment? Let's take a really festive approach for this and ask who has been the bigger disappointment? Is it Manchester City or Manchester United? Don't all rush at once. I think... Go on, Clint. Man United. I say Man United have been the biggest disappointment. I'd rather be Man City than Man United. I know Man City have been in a poor position, but look where they are in the league and look where Man United are in the league, Kelly. So I'm looking at...

Specifically on that, look, Ruben Amarin's coming. I do think he'll be a success there, but I think they're going to have to wait a long, long time. They're going to need about three or four transfer windows and he's going to have to get players out and bring players in for his style of football. I think every player at the moment is on trial. That's why he keeps rotating his team. He doesn't know the best team at the moment. He's giving everyone an opportunity. As for Man City, if I could explain and we had long enough, I can't explain it.

I cannot believe it's the biggest drop-off. I never thought there'd be a major crisis like I'm seeing at the moment. You watch the game against Aston Villa on the weekend. They look devoid of ideas. The build-up plays slow. And everyone says it's Rodri, and I know Rodri's the best number. It can't just be one player. Surely why they're so poor. But there's big problems. But I'd rather be Man City at the moment. That's for sure. Chris, who would you rather be?

Neither. But if I had to choose one... If you had to pick one for the purposes of the Monday Night Club. Yeah, I'd do the best.

I think the bigger, the bigger, yeah, the biggest surprise, if anything, I'm not surprised by Manchester United really. And I really feel sorry for Ruben Amrim. You know, it was always going to be difficult for him coming in, taking over this same group of players as last season and trying to,

trying to get them up and running and consistent and playing at a high level. And I don't know if you saw him sat in his press conference after they'd been walloped by Bournemouth and the roof started to leak. Did you see that? Did you see that? When it rains, it pours in Manchester. But yeah, so I expected Manchester United not, I didn't expect them to be quite this bad.

but Manchester City is a drop-off. I predicted them to win the Premier League at the start of the season. Rory was right about my predictions. That was a terrible prediction. They can't win it now. And I never, you know, just nearly Christmas. Who would have thought anybody would say that, that they cannot win it? It's an incredible drop-off. And the worst thing, and Clinton's touched on it, is...

Well, I think we're at the stage now where you can't see them necessarily turning it round. We went through when they'd lost a couple and thought, oh, well, you know, that's just a blip. It's Manchester City. You know, they'll find a way out of it. But it hasn't happened. And, you know, they're suffering as, you know, most other clubs have suffered over the years. And their wheels are coming off spectacularly. So fair play to them. Yeah, he's getting to the stage with City now where it doesn't feel like all of the...

Not excuses, but explanations or the mitigating circumstances that we have all over the last six weeks, two months given. The, you know, rodry, the injuries, fatigue, all of that is completely legitimate and that's all correct. They're all factors. But they're the factors that you use to explain Man City being...

in a battle with Liverpool and Chelsea and Arsenal for the title. They're the factors that you explain, you would use to kind of explain them being ninth in the Champions League megatable. They don't explain the worst run of form in any of the major five leagues in Europe. You know, this is still a team that has just won, what, six out of seven titles? That is, until like October was, most people would have said that that is the best football team in the world. The fact that they have fallen off that spectacularly

isn't explained by the fact that the players are tired. I think that if you put, if Rodri, I said this the other week, but if Rodri was like healed by some Christmas miracle and played against Everton on Boxing Day, I don't think that would solve all of City's problems anymore. It seems to be so deep rooted. I think they will turn it around. I still won't say in public, I don't think they'll win the league.

But I certainly wouldn't say they can't win the league, Chris. They can win the league. They can't. No, they can't. That's the sort of thing that's going to be put on social media in May when Ilkay Gundogan is lifting a trophy. I don't care. But it's gone so far. I would have agreed with you a month ago. But now it's gone so far and you can't... It wasn't a surprise Aston Villa beating them at the weekend. No.

And the painful part probably for Manchester City is when Morgan Rogers was once of City. And I'm not saying everybody can be Captain Hindsight and what have you, but there's been so many players they've let go and they're an ageing team now where if we're being picky, you're thinking, you know, should they have...

I know they always get angry, Manchester City fans, about Cole Palmer, but it is true. And I think it's a fair debate. You see Rodgers and there's a whole list of them who have been at City at one time or another. But this was when City were winning things and had superior players to everybody else. So it's not easy, but I think it's one now where you can look at sort of ageing players, De Bruyne, Gundogan, Silva,

Kyle Walker and think, you know, maybe they need, you know, a bit more, a bit more youth, you know, a bit more legs in there. And, and yeah, and Rogers at the weekend was, you know, was phenomenal, but that's, yeah, that's maybe sort of, as I say, Captain Hindsight. The question of the, of the players aging. I mean, Kevin De Bruyne made the point ahead of the, the Manchester Derby, which obviously Manchester United won, that they're only a few months older than they were when they won the trophy at the end of, of last season. I,

I always think it's really interesting because they're now at the bottom of the form table over the last eight games. Nobody has won fewer points than Manchester City over the last eight games. They've taken just four points. That's less than Southampton. That's less than Leicester. And I just wonder when you look at those players and you talk about ageing players, we talked about Mohamed Salah earlier on, about him getting to the same age as De Bruyne and maybe the reasons why.

you know, that he started later in his career or most of his football was played later in his career as to why that it might be that he has a longer tail. But I just wonder when it starts to go, Chris and Clinton, how quickly can it go? Can it go within a matter of,

I mean, I know you hear players sometimes saying, I woke up one morning and suddenly I just couldn't, I couldn't recover. I couldn't run. I couldn't do the things that I used to do. My body wouldn't do what my head was telling it. And it happened overnight. That was every morning. Yeah, that was there. But realistically, how quickly does that happen to you?

Yeah, it can happen quickly. It's different. Listen, those players, it's different level. Chris was at that level, but then levels that they have now, those kind of Kevin De Bruyne's and Salah's, I'm not putting myself, I wasn't in that kind of level. So it's totally different. But I think it gets to a stage where you think,

think you know you can get around the pitch and then you think you like your body's telling you your mind saying I can get there but your body's trying to get to the ball and you can't get there anymore and someone younger just comes in front and nips it and then you think all right can I be a more experienced and sit here and dictate the game and stuff like that but you've got to have the legs in the Premier League I don't think Kevin De Bruyne I think he's Asian but I don't think he's finished I think the biggest problem with Rory here he's played a lot of football and he's had a lot of injuries and that's his

problem because Mo Salah, as you said, is around the same age and he looks still fit and healthy as in great condition. But it is something when it happens, Kelly, it's not the nicest thing and you don't like it, probably especially when you're at that top, top level and you think, yeah, it's getting to that stage where I'm looking at myself now and I'm thinking, can I go and compete at this level? Can I compete with these younger players? But I don't think that's the case with all the City players. I don't think it...

I think some of them, I think Chris makes a good point, some of them are ageing and I do think Man City will spend in January. I do think they'll strengthen that squad massively in January. What I wanted to ask, and I know Chris will answer this, but after what we have to answer about this is, do you still think Man City will finish in the top four? No.

No, no, I don't actually. Um, I think that their drop off has been so great. Uh, you know, the thing about the aging thing, you know, the proof of the Christmas pudding is in the eating really. And, and it's what we see every week, uh, from them. And, and,

These have all been world-class players, the four I've mentioned. World-class players. But aging comes to us all. De Bruyne has had a lot of injuries, in my mind. I can't remember his records back in the day, but he seems to have had a lot of niggles, a lot of injuries recently.

And I think you said earlier, Kelly, about Gravenberch and that run of games and that consistency in selection and playing week in and week out and then getting that rhythm. I think I always thought, I don't know what Clinton thought, I always felt that rhythm was really important and game time was really important to get that consistency. You think, I think Rory said this on the Monday night club before, Gundogan coming back from Barcelona, an ageing Gundogan, Bernardo Silva, Canco Pass players.

anymore and Kyle Walker's you know taking a

bit of a hammering this season for the way that he's defended it. And it's, you know, it's a sort of imperfect storm in many ways for Manchester City because all these players at once aren't performing. And there's not one player who, you know, you look at and think, well, to be fair, they've been all right. They've, you know, they've been pretty consistent this season. Even the likes of Phil Foden and what have you, you know, he's not been anywhere near the level. He was PFA Player of the Year. Yeah.

you know, last season. And, you know, he's been off it. But this drop-off is absolutely astonishing, really. And I can't, you know, what is there to suggest that they're all of a sudden going to come out of this rut? And there's nothing in recent performances. So I just think it's law of averages, you know, just because, you know, eventually they'll have to get the win because they're Manchester City. I think they've got Everton.

next and you think Everton at home um and but Everton in recent times have been pretty stubborn haven't they kept clean sheets against Chelsea and Arsenal so that's not going to be an easy one but since the tide must turn eventually you would have thought for them but they're not going to win the Premier League Rory doesn't like me saying that he's offended by that but it's true offended by it I just think you're tempting fate I think that yeah more likely is that they're

that City's season will become about qualifying for the Champions League and potentially trying to win the Champions League. That is one that might, that the timeframe might suit them a little bit, that if they're getting players back by sort of March, April and everyone suddenly fit, then you wouldn't rule City out of winning the Champions League. But I think the problem they've got is quite neatly sort of illustrated by John Stones in the Villa game, that Stones has injuries, comes back,

is probably playing more football more quickly than is advisable because City's squad are so short. And all of a sudden may well be injured again or can't find the pace too much. And I think they'll find that once you're caught in that kind of injury loop, it's really hard to escape it because you are still burdening the players. As you're waiting for others to come back, you get the players who've been overburdened starting to fall away again. So it may well be that that isn't the case, that City have still got injury problems there.

in six weeks, two months, three months. I'm like, I'm with Clinton. I can't see them not spending relatively big in January. I think, I don't think they've got a choice. There were five Premier League matches on Sunday. All 10 teams are back in action on Boxing Day or roundabout. It's the most intense period of the season for players. Usually, this one's relatively relaxed for players. They've got quite a little bit of time between games. It's been quite stressful. But,

playing over Christmas isn't the worst part of it Clinton I mean we're not going to sit here and say play football on boxing days and absolute nightmare everybody loves football on boxing day it's the it's the Christmas days isn't it that makes it a little bit tough yeah yeah definitely what I didn't like is when you've got to get an away game on boxing day so you have to travel in the night time so you go in sometimes I have a manager who want you to train in the morning and

And then you can go home and have your Christmas dinner with your family and that. And then you have to go off in the evening. But you have to accept it, you're a professional footballer. It wasn't nice leaving a family, but it's something you get used to as a footballer. I loved it because of the home games, because the home games, we weren't in a hotel. We could just go and meet in the morning so you could spend time

the whole time. But I liked playing on Boxing Day. And now I do the pundit stuff. I even love it even more because once you've got Christmas out of the way, the next day of watching Boxing Day or working on Boxing Day is brilliant. But as a footballer, I didn't mind it to be fair. I like playing on Boxing Day. It wasn't one that bothered me. The only thing, and I never got booked, Kelly, even if I was on four bookings, I wouldn't get booked kicking a ball away. I promise you that. No, because you always wanted to be there. You wanted to be part of a big Boxing Day football match. There you go. Yeah.

the other thing as well Chris is that with Christmas come Christmas parties

I don't know where you want me to go with this, Kelly. I was leaving it wide open for you to take anywhere you want. The one where, as a Celtic player, we went away from Glasgow because we thought that would be the sensible thing to do to get away from the local Glasgow Goldfish Bowl and the press. We went to Newcastle and we had three players arrested, unfortunately, which didn't.

which didn't go down very well with Martin O'Neill, I can tell you. So, yeah, that was a good night. That's one we still talk about today. Yeah. Of course, yeah. So, yeah, some good Christmas parties. It's not a Christmas party until three people get arrested. Yeah.

No, but they are good. Christmas parties are good. We went to Dublin and the two best ones were Dublin and Newcastle. Unbelievable nights out. And yeah, really good. You're with your teammates. You're enjoying. You couldn't even get arrested in Newcastle. You can't just tell us you had a good night out. You have to give us details. We want to know why it's a good night out. Can't be repeated on hair, Kel. But it was a very good night.

Well, you just keep your memories to yourself, thank you. I tell you the memories you won't be keeping to yourself. I've got your Boxing Day records, Clinton and Chris. Do you want to hear them? I don't think mine was good, but go on fire. Well, you scored for Palace in a 3-1 win at Oxford in 1998. Oh, that was near my debut or something when I was just starting out, yeah. 2004, Birmingham 2-0 win at home to Middlesbrough.

2007 Palace 2-0 win at Coventry 2009 Coventry in a 1-0 win at home to Doncaster so that's good yeah that's not bad that means I didn't eat too much on Christmas Day innit so it's all good you're just there with your lean protein and maybe a few green veg I wouldn't say lean Kelly but yeah I'd say the protein Chris do you want to know yours? well if you like if you like yeah

Anybody else like to hear Chris's? Because he's not bothered. I like to hear Chris's. Chris was good. Chris would be good. 1993, you scored twice for Norwich in the 3-1 win at Spurs, but it was on the 27th, so not technically relevant. Yeah, but that does count. And do you know the story there? There is a little story to that. I'd signed a new deal. The chairman had given me a new deal and that was my first ever goal bonus contract. How much was it? Do you remember? I...

Yeah, please say something like seven shillings and sixpence. I was going to lie. I was going to say. £500 a goal if we won or drew. If we won or drew. So that was, that was, but I signed, I signed that deal on the first. You didn't get the goal bonus if you lost. No, that's right. That's right, Rory. Is that normal? It's a well-run club, Norwich City. Well, I don't, it depends on, you know, how you do your contracts. It's a little bit greedy if you sort of think it's okay to score. A little bit selfish, isn't it? If you think it's okay to score and your team to lose and then, and then take a bonus. You're doing your bit.

for it. But yeah, Mike Walker then, the chairman promised that we were moving in the right direction and would keep all the players together and our manager wouldn't go anywhere. And Mike Walker then went to Everton and it all sort of fell apart at Norwich then. 2000 scored twice for Celtic, 4-0 win at Dundee United.

2003, twice for Celtic in a 6-0 win at home to heads again though on the 27th. And also you had one Boxing Day match as a manager. Oh, God. It was an 8-0? Was it an 8-0 defeat? No. 0-0? No, you beat Chesterfield 2-1 in 2009. Wow, I remember that. I remember that. That's all right though. I remember that well. That was the only time we scored two goals. I think that's easy.

It was a masterclass. It's a good time to save it. We are nearly there. It's nearly the end of the final Monday nightclub of the season. Just before we finish, just to clear things up, Clinton, you'll enjoy this. It's not the final Monday nightclub of the season, Kelly. Don't cancel us. Of the year. That's better. Do you know what? I kept doing this with the kids' schools. Instead of saying at the end of term, I kept saying at the end of the season. So thanks for listening to the final Monday nightclub ever with Chris, Clinton Morrison.

and Rory Smith. Take a world-class former football manager, cast him away on a desert island. The idea of a desert island doesn't frighten me at all. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne, presenter of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. Joining us on the island, Gareth Southgate. I'm a huge patriot. Even just putting the training kit on

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