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The Champions League Debrief. With Mark Chapman. Listen on BBC Sounds. Dramatic night in the Champions League. Barcelona 4, Borussia Dortmund 0 and Paris Saint-Germain 3, Aston Villa 1. And that is the game that we are going to concentrate on now with Conor McNamara and Paul Robinson who are at the Parc des Princes.
and former Villa striker Dion Dublin as well as Julien Laurent will join us in a little while. What a game, Conor. The knockout stages of the Champions League just continues to produce these explosive matches, and for four short minutes here in Paris, Aston Villa dared to dream
that they would be the ones enjoying the fireworks. They had a rope-a-dope, backs-to-the-wall start. They absorbed early Paris Saint-Germain pressure, but they took the lead. Ten minutes before half-time, Morgan Rodgers with a finishing touch to a classic counter-attacking goal. McGinn did well to win the ball in midfield. Tielemans drove into the penalty area, pulled it back across the face, Rodgers side-footing it in. That was the template Unai Emery was hoping was going to work tonight.
and was going to bring a lead back to Villapark for the second leg next week. But what it didn't counter into effect was the phenomenal attacking force that Paris Saint-Germain have become. They don't have Neymar and Mbappe and Messi anymore, but they look a much better team for it. And the quality of their goals were of the highest order tonight. Desiree Doué...
got the first one to equalize just four minutes after Rodgers had given Villa the lead. It was a perfect finish into the top corner beyond Emi Martinez, who didn't even fully stretch to try and get there. Into the second half, Paris Saint-Germain took the lead for the first time in this quarterfinal. The Georgian, Gervati Askelia, who'd been superb to watch all night, scoring soon after the restart. And then at 2-1 down, we were beginning to convince ourselves that actually that wouldn't be the worst outcome for Villa
to bring back to the second leg, but as we mentioned in the commentary, they are the team who have conceded the most stoppage time goals in the Premier League this season, and they conceded in stoppage time here. The left-back, Nuno Mendes, dancing his way, cutting back in the penalty area to finish high up into the net, to give a 3-1 scoreline that Lucas Enrique will feel is deserved given his dominance, and that is going to make life really difficult
for Unai Emery's team to try and turn it around next week. And we'll look at the situation for Villa and we'll look at where it was won and lost in a bit and do slightly the more in-depth stuff. But Dion Dublin, every single goal tonight, if you're a neutral in particular, which I know you're not, but every single goal was just a joy to watch. Every single one of them. Yeah, I agree. Just a high quality and...
composure under pressure, knowing full well what finish you're going to use before you get into the situation. Just high quality chappers and, you know, I tip my hat to PSG. They work so hard but they get the ball back at pace and they're just great to watch. They're so balanced at the moment, you know, it was very imbalanced when they had the other superstars but now they have undercurrent superstars that are just rearing their head, superb.
I mean, I'm just watching, actually, Paul, obviously on a monitor in front of me, a slow-motion replay of Kevatskaliya's goal. And the reason I said all four, because I thought Villa's goal was a cracking goal. The ball across from Tielemans was great.
But the individual brilliance of Paris Saint-Germain, despite getting rid of all those individually brilliant players, the individual brilliance still saw Paris Saint-Germain through. He was absolutely unplayable. At times Villa couldn't get near him, he made the change at half-time, Matty Cash went off, De Sassi came on, De Sassi just never got to the pace of the game, he never picked up the pace, and he didn't know whether to stick or twist.
and he was getting beaten by Kovacic every single time. And when he changed over to the right-hand side, then he got Barcola that came on and did exactly the same to him. They really struggled defensively down the right-hand side tonight, Aston Villa. No, I agree. I think Robbo's bang on. De Sassi didn't really want to be on the pitch tonight because it was just...
And it's hard to get to the pace of the game at that stage of the game as a player coming on the pitches. And then just Caval at Scalia tonight was on the right side, he was playing the 10, he was on the left-hand side. Dembele was doing what he wanted to do. I mean, Douay, I mean, I've seen him play a couple of times before and he's been OK, but tonight, he's 19 years old. He was playing the game like he was a 35-year-old veteran. He was just so confident. Great to see.
He's got four in his last three as do I. They had 29 shots tonight, the Paris Saint-Germain, 11 on target. And in fact, when the third one went in, you could see the relief on Luis Enrique, couldn't you, Paul? He jumped into his staff's arms. I think, and you were saying it in commentary, if they'd gone to Villa Park 2 or not,
they'd have felt that was a missed opportunity. Yeah, Villa were still in the game at 2-1, I mean, 3-1 didn't even flatter them, it could have been 4-5-6, if they'd have put six past Aston Villa tonight, they couldn't have complained the dominance that PSG had, but like you say, the importance of that third goal was there for all to see, the manager immediately leapt off his bench, jumped into the arms of his coaching staff, and the atmosphere inside the stadium has been electric all night, but even more so when that goal went in,
it was a relief, it was a celebration and listen, it was no more than they deserved in all honesty, they were absolutely excellent tonight Paris. Do you think it's one of those nights then both of you that whatever Villa would have tried to have done, they would have just been on the back foot against a side who are just peaking what it feels like at the right time?
I think whoever played Paris Saint-Germain tonight would have struggled. I think the way that they played and the way that they set about Aston Villa, they literally didn't give them a minute's peace. When they did lose possession, the turnover possession, Villa had the ball. Every time they looked up, there was a red and blue shirt in their face. They didn't give them a yard, they didn't give them a minute, they were so quick, they were organised. The way that they've been coached to play the way that they did, it was a joy to watch, it really was from a neutral point of view. They are a really good side.
You know what as well, and I mentioned it as well at half-time and possibly before the game, you have to have an out-ball. Marcus was so deep, I know that's how the manager wanted them to play. Get yourself tucked in, go at yourself in a 5-4-1 or a 5-5 and just absorb the pressure, then break. But if you've got no out-ball and your out-ball's ten yards away from the edge of your box, you're playing passes and you're going to give the ball away because they close down so quickly.
And I think that's what it was for Villa. It's OK sitting in, but you've got to have one player at least up the pitch in the centre circle that you can get up and get close to. So is that a positioning issue? Because it was Marcus Rashford who was their player who's furthest forward. Or is that a little bit more, and it's been a discussion so many times,
that Marcus Rashford isn't your number nine, really. Yeah, I think naturally he would have wanted to be out on the left. We all know that. But if you're playing centre forward, at some stage, when the ball is run back by your side, you have to find your way up the pitch so they can just drop it into you or even put it in behind with a bit of pressure from you on the defender. If you look up and your centre forward is ten yards away from your box,
you can't get out not the way PSG play Chappers they work hard to get the ball back if they get the ball back in your final third you're in trouble and just to highlight the work rate Jean Neves covered the most distance on the pitch which was just shy of 12k Paul 11.86k
one of his midfield partners in Virginia had the most passes in the game of 154. It, one highlights, firstly highlights how they complement each other, but it secondly highlights the domination in all facets of the game. And that's what they do. They swarm you. They swarm all over a team.
And to do that, I said in commentary, you can't just have one or two players doing it. You can't set a trap in a certain area and have three or four players doing a high press. It's the whole team, it's every single person, all over the pitch, they almost go man for man everywhere. They trust each other, they know that if one goes, they're going to have the backup. Everywhere is going to be picked up. Such a difficult team to play against.
You know what, Chappers, as well? Sorry, Chappers. If you have players in your side that PSG have with the natural talent and the natural, I don't know, talent to score goals and to defend, if they have the mindset of really wanting to work hard as well, that's the perfect mix, and they had it tonight. But they do, don't they? They do. Yeah, they do. They do mentally. They're happy. They're happy to work hard.
Even Cavatscalia, who has a sort of... can look languid at times, has a work rate to him. It makes it easy for your plan to come together.
if you have naturally talented footballers, but they are happy to do exactly what you're asking them to do, which is really work hard to get the ball back. Vitinha's in there, Mendes down the left-hand side was outstanding, Douay and Cavac Scalia was brilliant as well. And they're all willing to do the hard yards in order to make the game easier for themselves, because they're better than most people.
It's harder to get players to do that. Sorry, Travis, it's harder to get players to do that and to put in that shift week in and week out. You know, the demands that he puts on those players, I tell you, it's a lot easier because they're winning every week. When you're winning every week and you play the way that they do, you tell a player to run 12 kilometres in a game, no problem, we've just won the league last week, we're winning every week and we're progressing. If you're losing and those tactics are not working, there's the issue. But surely it's also easier to do that
If you're all doing it, you're not all running 12k, but you are all performing to your limit when it comes to work, right? And that is where the Paris Saint-Germain problem, as we've discussed many times, has been there before, Paul. So, you know, if your superstars are working to the limit, then you work to the limit. And it's the buy-in. Yeah, it's the buy-in from everybody. And that's what I said. The way that he plays only works if you've got every single player on board.
and he's got that, and like we said in commentary, you look at the age of his team, you look at the age of his squad, and he's taken the big stars out of it, but the better players in that team, the midfield generals, if you like, they're the ones that are putting in the shift, and they're looking around, and the demands that they put on each other.
They're looking around the organisation, the communication, and they demand of each other because they know what's necessary. And we spoke about Paris Saint-Germain for years, dominating French football, winning the league. Can they do it in the latter stage of the Champions League against the better teams in Europe? They've proved tonight that they're at that level now. And the foundations that he's built this squad, this team on, they're here to stay. They're here for a while, this team. Let's hear from one of the Paris Saint-Germain goalscorer's side. Here is Kovic at Scalier.
Yeah, it was a difficult start because we conceded the goal but the good feeling was that the duo scored and we came back on the game and we tried to score more and more goals. So we are happy with this result but we have to keep going because there is the second game and the job's not finished. How do you want to play this game? How do you want to conserve now this advantage?
It will be a little bit difficult game but we have to try to play our game and I think we will see what's happening there. I wonder whether that might be a difference for Paris Saint-Germain as well, Paul, and we saw it against Liverpool, is that they do play their game, they don't try and alter... I mean, it'd be interesting to see whether they do try and sit in with a 3-1 lead, but their style didn't change at Anfield, but maybe that's because they had to go for it more.
Yeah, they had to go for it, but you watch them all this season in the French League and that's the way that they play, regardless of who they're playing against. And as you say, their performance at Anfield, yes, they were chasing the game, it was a knockout game, but there was no difference to what they did then as to what they did tonight. I mean, you look at what they did in the play-off to get through to the Champions League, 10-0 against Brest, you'd think that that game was over, that game was done, but they just keep going and keep doing what's been drilled into them. They're a really well-coached team, there's
there's pace, there's power, there's energy and they're going to be tough for whoever they play. I mean, it's going to be tough for Villa back at Villa Park. But Villa will be kicking themselves, Dion, they conceded that third goal. Yeah, because they were definitely still in it. Do you think they're not now?
No, they are. The door's slightly ajar, Chappers, but I just feel that I can't see PSG changing the way they play with any result against any side at any stage because it's working for them. What they're doing is working for them, so why would they change it? They beat everybody anyway, they've got better players than most, so they won't change a thing. They will go to Villa Park and they'll want to do the same
as what they did tonight and dominate the game and dominate the ball. Here's Unai Emery. With 2-1, we were thinking for the next match, playing to win. And with 3-1, still being the same. We need to win the next match. Not only for one goal, for the two. But we are here and enjoying. And I am very proud of the players and of everything we are in Aston Villa, how we are developing and doing with our players.
increase in our demands and play here at PSG and we compete fantastic. We compete fantastic and we were close to get good results. At the end, with this goal, it's still more or less the same because we will win the next week, I believe. Villa Park is our home. Hopefully, we can fill their
stronger, duels getting better than today, and as well collectively try to have our moment more than we had today. But of course they are favourites, still being favourites, they show their power, they show as well their individual qualities. We needed the fans to be compact, to be disciplined, to be with a lot of covers of their wingers, and we did it.
But the result is not the best, it's the worst. But still 90 minutes to play, second leg, and hopefully we can as well in case we are standing for a rest of time. How much of a difference can your fans make next Tuesday at Villa Park? The atmosphere we had against Bayern Munich in the first European home game was epic. Do you want the same thing again? And did you see Prince William after the match? He was here with his son tonight. I don't know if you spoke to him at all.
Yeah, we are very proud of everybody supporting Aston Villa the way we are doing. And of course, to enjoy in Villapar next week, the final Champions League against Paris Saint-Germain. The supporters, the old supporters, they were leaving in 1982, the Cup of Europe winning and the younger supporters leaving.
We are going to try to enjoy, to have one day special as well in Villa Park and try to get our best, try to create a strong atmosphere there supporting and pushing us. And we are going to try to face better the match we played today. But more or less, it's carry on in the same way we are.
The Euroleagues, only on the Football Daily. Listen on BBC Sounds.
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On the Football Daily podcast, the Champions League debrief. With Mark Chapman. Listen on BBC Sounds.
Morgan Rodgers has said to TNT afterwards, we knew we had to defend well. Errors maybe could have been prevented. We've got another leg to turn it around. We're going to try everything. We're here for a reason, not just to compete. We've got enough quality to cause any team problems. There's loads of belief in the changing room. No one had us to win the tie in the first place. We've got to keep going. Difficult to disagree with any of that. Although the errors maybe could have been prevented...
Managers will always say goals are preventable, weren't they, Paul? But were any of them preventable?
I think it was more the opposition's quality rather than individual errors. If you pick the bones out of every goal and unpack every goal and go back so many stages of play, there's always somewhere that you could have done better or your ball retention or you should have had a tackle here or something that you could have prevented in a build-up to a goal somewhere along the line. But actually the finishes and the way that PSG played, you can't really criticise. I would agree. I just think the quality of the player...
I think Villa did okay. And like I said, Chabbers, it's really hard to play against a team like this that completely suffocate you as soon as you get the ball. They don't care where the ball is or who has the ball or how much time they have. They squeeze in threes and fours.
And if all your players are in a very similar area, the area's closed down, you've got nowhere to pass, you've got no out-ball, PSG will love it. I think Villa, towards the end, play into PSG's hands.
It's more than just having an out ball for the second leg, isn't it, for Unai Emery? Yes, all without a doubt. So what do they do? We talk constantly about the options that Villanueva have, the different players that they can rotate in those attacking areas, even in the midfield areas, even the full-backs, you know, to a certain extent they have different options. What do PSG do if he plays Ole and Rashy up front? You know, you free one down.
For me, I think you've got a different game entirely if you play Ollie Watkins and Rashford up front. You've got a different game complete. As a two. Right. You've got a different game complete. That's personally what I think Villa should do to get in this game early on. With Morgan Rodgers in behind them? I'd have Morgan Rodgers playing. I'd possibly drop or not drop, leave out probably Kamara, keep McGinnon. What's the difference between...
There isn't one. The word drop. It's not been used for a long time. Right, so you'd maybe take Kamara out and have McGinn and Telemans as a two and Rodgers just ahead of them. And then Watkins and Rashford as a two. Correct.
That's what I would do. If you want to get back in this game, you've got to do something drastic. The thing for Villa, the way that PSG play, and we said that they're not going to change their style of play, the problem that Aston Villa have got, they've got to chase the game. They've got to go after this. And by doing that, they leave themselves wide open. We saw tonight, we saw the pace, we saw the power.
the quality that PSG have got in the final third, soon as Villa open the self up and leave them vulnerable, they will concede because this team are too good. So for Villa to come out and be too open. But then you have to pin them back, don't you? Absolutely, yeah. The best form of defence is attack, if you like. But by doing that,
the players that PSG have got with the pace that they've got they can and will hurt Aston Villa. Mark I'm just going to jump in for a second because a very happy Frenchman has come to you can see from there the beam of the smile. I'm going goodbye. I have to bring him in.
Stop giggling, will you? Stop giggling. I'm sorry. That third goal made me really happy, Dion. I won't lie. I'm not surprised. Why? Were you a bit worried until there, Julien Laurent? I was not worried, but I mean, I think 2-1 is a win for PSG in the first leg, so you have an advantage before the second leg. But for Villa, you go home and you think, OK, 2-1.
Just a good deficit, it's doable, Villa Park, great atmosphere, you have to go for it. All of that. 3-1 is a different story and I agree with the boys. If you have to come out against this PSG team, with Barca, Lang, Varas, Kylian, Douai and Dembele and the midfield that they have, you're going to open up and that's the last thing you want to do against them. So it will be a very difficult approach, I think, for Emery and his players next week.
But the third goal made it, yeah, of course, made it more comfortable, I think. We were in the middle of sort of trying to work out what Unai Emery could do next week to try and pin Paris Saint-Germain back. To sort of expand on that,
What's Paris Saint-Germain's biggest weakness at the moment? I guess the high line defensively. And you saw, you see a couple of times where he was not exploited like he should have been from Villa. But even the goal in a certain way, I know it's a slightly different attack than a quick transition. But you recover the ball and then it's a 3v3. And then you, this is when, this is still a young team. They don't defend those defensive transitions that well. And then they set pieces and I guess the Pau Torres situation
header at the start of that second half maybe again they could have done better there but really this is it because if you want to go and press them they are very press resistant if you want to sit back a bit like today and put 11 men behind the ball you're going to run and run and run after the ball all the time and eventually physically you can't do it for 90 minutes and that's how the third goal comes it's because I
After running so much behind the ball, after the ball, closing gaps everywhere, trying to double up wide, staying narrow inside, all of that. You can do it, of course, but it's very demanding mentally and physically. And that's how the third goal happened. So it's really difficult. Yeah, you can pin them down. You would have to try to go high and force them to play long. And some teams, Monaco, Marseille, have done it a little bit. Even Liverpool are unfilled in the second leg.
but they are very good against the press too. This may sound like an arrogant Englishman question, so I apologise.
How did Paris Saint-Germain manage to get Kovac Scalia as opposed to a Premier League club? That's what I find... It's beyond me, Chappers. It's beyond me. I don't understand how the Premier League game go. I won't lie. Not even just this January because PSG did the kind of background work last summer when they wanted it initially and they just could not agree a fee. Napoli wanted a lot of money for him, over 100 million euros. So it was difficult.
But like, I think at 70 million euros, and I know this is a lot of money, of course, and not every club could afford him. Obviously, I get that. But really, if you're Man City or Manchester United or... Liverpool? Liverpool, exactly. And yeah, there are other players who play wide, who have quality on the ball. But I thought tonight, not everything's perfect, of course. Sometimes there's an extra touch. Sometimes he loses the ball, yeah. But the goal is course. It's just all... This is all the quality that he has and...
And yeah, I'm really amazed. I think the Premier League was made for him, but nobody went to get him. It feels like a big night for Luis Enrique this, actually, with that third goal. We were talking as well about just that relief from him when the third goal went in. Yeah, because again, I mean, the scoreline is more comfortable, but that's obvious. But it's also that...
I think the character of this young team showed again and shown again tonight. The bit like against City in that game here in the league phase is that you 1-0 down. Yeah, you have a lot of the ball. You are the better team, OK, clearly. But they defend, they frustrate you. And yeah, just keep, stay patient. And this is all, this is all Luis Enrique has said to this team for the last six months.
Just believe in yourself, believe in your ability. Regardless of what the opposition does, what the adversity is, you have to still believe in what you're good at. And it's just moving the ball like they did today and taking their chances. Jules, what's changed in this team? What's changed since the defeat to Arsenal?
they look a different team. Obviously, he's worked on them and there's been changes during the season, but they look a completely different team to the one that lost to Arsenal at the beginning of the season. Yeah, you're right. Absolutely. Since October, it's just not the same story at all. Dembele moving centrally is big. I mean, he was dropped for that Arsenal game because he had a disagreement and a bit of a fight with Luis Enriquez, so he was left at home.
him centrally and you saw in the second half the little tweak from Luis Enrique to make him drop even deeper. So then if you were Konca and Pau Torres, you could not really go with him and he had more space and then from there he can just orientate the game. That's the first one. I mean, Desiree Douay, again, the goal today, the first goal is just incredible. But for somebody who's 19, he started at Arsenal and was out of his depth.
And for him to have worked his way in and now being this quality at such a young age is ridiculous. And yeah, everything clicked in midfield as well. The balance there, Vitinha, Neves and Ruiz. And I just think they went from strength to strength. Stay there, all of you. I'll come back to you all just before we hand to Tony Lives here at half-time. But let's get some Villa reaction. Here's Matty Cash with Rob Knopfman. Well, Matty Cash joins us now. A tough old night that was. A lot of effort. How important do you think that third goal was right at the end?
Yeah, obviously it was a tough night. We knew coming here it was going to be tough. We watched a few of the games and obviously they dominated Liverpool I think here. They got unlucky to lose. It was a tough night. I think we defended the box really well to be honest and I think at the end we were
unfortunate and unlucky to concede the third but yeah we've got Villa Park next week I think it'll be a different game the manager spoke in there and just said it's only half time we've still got another 90 minutes to play and as I said then at home we're really strong so we're more than capable to score two three goals at home but yeah I think we're all proud of the boys I think we come here we played okay we
defended the box where I was I said and we'll learn from it and we'll move on It was a cauldron of an atmosphere it's one thing getting yourself ready for it it's another thing actually managing to cope with it Have you played in much louder atmospheres than that? Yeah I have actually I think when I play for the country when we travel away there's always a few loud stadiums
But tonight, I loved it. I love going out there and playing in the big games, playing in the Champions League quarter-final. It's sort of a kick-yourself moment. We wanted to compete better, obviously. Not compete better, we wanted a better result. But yeah, at the end of the day, we've come a long way. It's only half-time that we're more than capable to go on and win the game. And you feel that you'll be able to do to them pretty much what they did to you tonight?
As I said, we've got to respect them and they're probably favourites still in the tournament, if we're all honest. But I think at Hewlett Park, we feel confident there. As I said, we're on a good run there. We've got our fans with us and I think it will be a different game. We're going to try and make it a different game and look forward to it. And one last question about Emi Martinez.
He's able to cope with all of the stick that he was getting from those fans. He must be quite a character to come through all of that. Yeah, he's a big character. I wouldn't want anyone else in goal, to be honest. Behind me, he defends the goal so well. He's such a good goalkeeper. Brings that experience and that...
that character to the team, you know, and I think tonight as well, we pulled off some fantastic saves and yeah, great to have him behind us. Luis Enrique said to television afterwards, that was Matty Cash, by the way, we tried to control the game, control the chances. We were consistent with our confidence. It was difficult to accept their goal, but I think we deserve to win the match and to score in the last minute was great for our confidence. We'll now think about the second leg and that will be difficult for sure.
Borussia Dortmund were beaten 4-0 by Barcelona. Of course, Arsenal beat Real Madrid 3-0 last night, Inter beat Bayern 2-1. So they're the first legs done and dusted. Matty Cash says Paris Saint-Germain are favourites for the tournament. Oh, let's start with you, Paul Robertson. Who are your favourites for the tournament after the first legs?
Well, on that showing, I mean, I've not watched Barcelona or Dortmund first-hand, but you look at the Barcelona result tonight, it's hard to rule them out of the equation. PSG, obviously, were in the conversation before tonight, having watched them first-hand, whoever played them tonight, if they can put in a performance like that, whether it be a quarter-final,
a semi-final, a final in a one-off game, I'd fancy them to win any game if they play like they did tonight. Dion, who are your favourites? Yeah, I agree with Robbo, I'd go PSG as well. I just think with that quality, working with that mindset, happy to work really hard together, holding each other accountable. Yes, they've got a great work ethic and they've got some great players, so I would go PSG, yeah. Connor? PSG. Is this to win the whole thing? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, ooh, ooh.
Barcelona did have a very good win tonight. And they've got Bayern Inter. And Arsenal had a very good win last night. They did. They did. They did. Sounds like you're sitting on the fence here, Conor. To be interesting, I'm going to say Barcelona. You're going to say Barcelona. And let's find out who Jules will go for and whether he wants to curse his own team.
You know the heart, obviously, says PSG. I would obviously love that. And I think this is the best team that we've had at this club for a very long time. And this is a massive chance for them. I wouldn't want to face this front three of Barcelona because I think Rafinha, Lewandowski and Jamal have been incredible too.
And I think Inter could defend well against anybody, really. But yeah, how we say PSG, the head, we say Barcelona. All right, Jules, Paul, Conor, Dion, thank you very much. That's it for the Football Daily. The next episode, we'll have all the reactions to Thursday's Europa League games.
It's the scandal that rocked rugby union to its core. The so-called Bloodgate scandal. Tom Williams now receiving attention. It seems so clear that this wasn't real blood. It's out and out cheating. This is a story of lies and deception.
Conspiracies and cover-ups. There was terror that it could tear the house down. Courtroom drama and secret deals. So obviously a lie. And a human cost that changed lives and careers forever. Dean Richards is found guilty and banned for three years. I'm Ross Kemp and this is Sports Strangers Crimes Bloodgate. Listen on BBC Sounds.
I'm Zing Singh. And I'm Simon Jack. And together we host Good Bad Billionaire. The podcast exploring the lives of some of the world's richest people. In the new season, we're setting our sights on some big names. Yep, LeBron James and Martha Stewart, to name just a few. And as always, Simon and I are trying to decide whether we think they're good, bad or just another billionaire. That's Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service. Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts.