Harry Redknapp: Di Canio’s Madness, Transfer Window Genius & Challenging Chairmen
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Hello and welcome to The Rest Is Football with me, Gary Lineker. There's no Micah Richards or Alan Shearer today, but I am joined by a very special guest. A man who played more than 100 times for both West Ham and Bournemouth and then went on to manage both clubs. He also managed the likes of Spurs, Portsmouth and QPR, among others, in a stellar career.

And I guess you must have worked it out by now. If not, he was a king of the jungle as well. It's worth pointing that out. Harry Redknapp joins me. Lovely to see you, Harry. Good to see you, Gary. How are you? Yeah, all good. Yeah, all good. Good. Good to have you on the podcast. I hear you're back in management. Yeah. Yeah. Busy, busy, busy managing the team again for Specsavers and...

It's a ton of athletic this year. I managed last year, I managed a Cwm Albion, which was near Swansea. That was interesting. That was my first, you know, having a go at doing this and I had some great fun. I mean, I loved every minute of it, honestly. And to get a win, we actually won a game, the last game of the season. When you say actually won a game, that's because you're coaching a side that are completely hopeless. They would, they'd been, yeah, it was tough. Yeah.

but that last game of the season, I can't tell you, I was as excited as I could ever have been. I mean, it was ridiculous, really. Yeah. But I did end up saying, listen, what's happened, really? I looked round, I mean, we played on this shocking pitch and the facilities were diabolical. I mean, I wanted to have a wee halfway through the game and there were no toilets anywhere. They said, no, there's nothing here. It was just a field with no changing rooms or anything. You find a tree somewhere. Behind a tree, one of them jobs.

And I said, I've come from White Hart Lane or Upton Park to San Siro and the Burner Bars and I've ended up here. What's happened to me? But we had a great time. If you're trying to help players at that level, how does that differ from managing players at the top level? I imagine it's slightly more challenging.

It was difficult, but I mean, I just gave him some simple instructions, really. I said, look... Just boot it. Boot it. You're spot on. I said, don't think your friends Beckham, Battle, Bobby Moore, they probably had no idea them people anyway, they were too young, but...

But I said, look, when you, you know, get it up there and let them make, they'll make mistakes. Their centre-halves can't, they'll mistrap it and we'll go through, we might get some chances, you know. So that was it really, basic, get it forward, don't mess about. What was the reaction like, perhaps, not necessarily your team because they'd have known you were coming along, but about when you go and play somewhere and they see, that's Harry Redknapp. Oh no, the last game, Gary, when we got the win, I mean...

We went 2-0 down and they had a guy playing for them and he was a bit of a lad, you know, he had the tattoos all over him and he loved himself. I think he thought he was Jack Grealish, you know, he had the Grealish headband, he

And then he comes running over to me on the tap like, Harry, Harry, where's the cameras, son? Where's the cameras? Two, Neil, where's the cameras? And then we won three, two. I went, oh, big mouth. Come over here. The cameras are here. Let's have a look. And he'd come over. I said, I made a mistake there, didn't I? I said, yeah, you did a little bit. You were too, you know.

But he was good as gold, but they were great lads. I had a real good time with them all. Yeah. What about the opposition coaches? Were they intimidated at all? Well, I don't know. No, they, you know, they like to show... I've been down that road, you know, in a different...

Back in the day, I went to Oxford City with Bobby, Bobby Moore, and it was a difficult time. I found the managers of the other team, I thought they'd be, you know, it's Bobby. Once the game started, they sort of had an attitude about them. It was like they really wanted to get one over on you. Jealousy, a bit of jealousy possibly. Yeah, strange.

And so I found it was a bit like that last year. The other managers weren't, you know, they got him as you think he is, you know, we beat them. And they normally did beat us, but we did get one result at the end anyway. Did you manage to bring in any ringers? Yeah, yeah, we got a couple, yeah.

Got a couple of late-ons. Tell me it was Defoe and Peter Crouch. No, we managed to sneak a couple in late-on, Defoe and Crouchy. That would have been good. But no, I mean, my first game, I turned up, Gary, at Coombe Albion. So they bring me into like their make-up addressing room area where they're going to bring the manager. Danny's going to come in and he doesn't know. They know they've won the award with Specsavers and they know they've got an ex-manager coming in, Premier League manager who's going to help them.

And he comes in, Danny, and they sit him down. Danny, they said, I bet you can't believe it. You know, you knew you had a manager coming. You've got Harry Redknapp coming to help you.

And he said, oh, he said, I was hoping it was going to be Brendan Rodgers. And I thought, oh, you know, that really deflated me a bit to start with. And then the first game we're getting beat, I think 8-0 after about 55 minutes. And I said to Danny, Danny, take him off the centre half. He's useless. The bald-headed guy, he can't run. He's had it. Get him off. Get him off. Oh, I can't take him off. I said, get him. He's useless. He can't run. Get him off. He said, no. I said, why can't you take him off? He says, my dad.

And his mum, she makes the tea, washes the shirt. She sits behind knitting all through the game. And so he couldn't take his dad off, otherwise he'd got no dinner tonight, you know, so he had to leave him on. Yeah, brilliant. It was good. It was good fun. Sounds a lot of fun. Harry, just tell us a little bit about...

tonally athletic and how bad they were and have you improved them and well I must be honest Kerry they were a little bit better than I expected you know you really do fear the worst when you go um and we played the other week we were down in Bristol um

And we didn't do too bad. You know, we got beat 8-1. It was quite encouraging. That's not too bad, is it? That's encouraging. It was quite encouraging. I thought, hang on, there's something to work on here with this lot, you know? Not a lot to work on, but something. Is it easier improving a top-class player or improving someone that's, let's say...

Pretty abject. I don't know. I think it depends how much they want to listen and learn in it as well, you know, but... And do you find they have? We're tonally athletic this season. I obviously don't want to give too much away because the series is coming up. But...

Can you improve players at that level? Yeah, I think for sure. I mean, you know, just getting them in positions and a little bit of understanding, doing a little bit of shape with them, you know, rather than just all charging up the pitch at the same, you know, as a team, you can certainly improve them, getting a little bit of shape to them and telling the midfield players that,

You know, they've got a role to play. When we don't want to be chasing it, you know, keep your shape in there. So when it breaks down, at least we're not just going to keep running through us. We know, you know, they're attacking our back four, back whatever, you know. So, yeah, I think you can certainly help them. And they enjoy it. I mean, they're very open to it.

you know, they enjoy you being there with them, I think. You know, I've had great fun. They've all been smashing lads to be around. I've had a real good time with them. So it's called the best worst team. Yeah. Do you think you can make them into the worst best team? Yeah. But the thing with the best, you know, is that they're good. They're a good club where all the players turn up. Yeah. And that's, you know, and the people that run the club love the club. And that's how it is with Tunley. They're all keen. They all turn up every week. They've always got 11 players, you know.

Not like back in the day where sometimes you'd turn up with teams only got eight men or something. These all want to play. They love playing. Even though they get beat every week, they enjoy being part of the club. Well, if ever there's a team that needed spec savers, it sounds like it's there. It's time, yeah. What about grassroots football? It's so important to our sport, isn't it? Oh, absolutely. But Gary, the facilities are so perfect.

poor. No money's put back in, is it? You know, the money at the top. If the big clubs could just, you know, give so much to local communities and improve facilities for the kids and whoever plays Sunday morning footballers, whatever, because the facilities are shocking. I go and watch a lot of kids football. I wander around Sunday and take my dogs for a walk and end up watching a game over the park.

And the pitches are shocking, really, you know. Something needs to be done to improve it. Change our climate. Change the climate would help, yeah. That would help. Yeah. I mean, the one big change, I don't know about what you think from when you played and I played, the quality of pitches at the top level now. Oh, crazy. That's the one thing, the one thing I'm envious about. Forget the money and all that, but the pitches. Oh, you can't.

I mean, how did they miss? I know. It's unreal, isn't it? But, you know, when you look at the old videos back in the day, you know, I'm a bit of an apprentice at West Ham and clearing the pitch of snow, but couldn't clear it, so I ended up patting it when they marked the lines in orange paint or whatever, and the game went on. And you played on the snow. You played on anything, didn't you? The games just went on. Ankle-deep mud. I showed my lads a video, actually, of

because I saw it on YouTube when I played with a pitch that was completely flooded and buggy and they went, you used to play on that? Yeah. And it's incredible. Because the pitches are pristine. They're perfect. And back in the day at West End, they used to have a band, probably...

30 people playing in a band and they'd be on the pitch hour and a half before the game and they'd stand there stamping their feet playing and that area was just by the time we got to September six weeks in or whatever it was just ankle deep mud the band and even on bad days they still had the band

to go on the pitch. Now you could, you tried, you know, you go there working for the BBC or whatever, you try stepping on the pitch, there'll be someone throwing you off straight away. You know, you can't put one foot on the pitch now. Absolutely. I remember the band, they used to play Wembley as well before England games. All the time, the band used to come out, gathering the warm-up. Yeah. He went, I'm going for the tuber. No. And he honestly, he did want to knock the...

Oh, no, it's shocking. Not the thing out of a fella's mouth or the trumpeter or whatever it was. I want to talk to you about management, Harry. Yeah. Because, you know, you've had such an amazing managerial career. Let's start with when did the interest in the coaching side sneak in? Gary, it started early for us because at West Ham, when I grew up there as a young player, you know,

Ron Greenwood used to, he got us all into schools coaching. So we used to go into schools in the Newham area. We used to get £2.50 an afternoon. And as soon as we finished training, we'd all go dashing off to our schools.

you know, Trevor Brookin would be in one school and Frank Lampard and every, we all went to different schools coaching the kids. And it was great because we'd play each other on a Wednesday afternoon at my team, Pretoria school would play, you know, St Bonaventure's who was coached by one of the other lads. And it,

It was great, you know. I presume you mean Frank Lampard Senior. Senior, oh, for sure. Because people will go, hang on a minute, they're a different age. No, Frank Senior. Yeah, because actually we ended up at Pretoria School in Canning Town, me and Frank. It was a school that Frank went to, Frank Senior. It was a proper tough school in Canning Town. I mean, it produced lots of good boxers.

one or two bank robbers, I think, you know. It was one of them schools. They probably ended up as a chairman somewhere. Also a few footballers, you know. But it was great. We loved every minute of it. And so we got into coaching then and we all did our... He got us all to do our coaching badges at sort of 21, 22. That was Ron, Ron Greenwood. I mean, he was an incredible football coach, Gary. You know, every day was something...

he'd put on sessions that were amazing really and still to this day people would still be doing half the stuff that he brought into the game you know a bit like we were talking about Terry Venables earlier he was one of those guys

Guys who had, you know, I went to Lily Shore as a 15-year-old. We all went to Lily Shore back in them days, pre-season. Every club sent its apprentices there and there'd be kids from all clubs. For our younger listeners, Lily Shore is basically how St. George's Park was. Lily Shore was like St. George's Park was. And you go and you're coached by different coaches from different clubs. And I'd only just been at West Ham like five weeks. And all pre-season we were working on overlapping fullbacks.

And I've gone to Lillyshaw and a kid passed me the ball and I'm saying to the fullback, come on, come. What are you doing? The coach stopped me. I said, well, I want him to overlap me. And I know it sounds silly. And he said, well, when I get the ball, I drive in, he comes around the back and we make two against one on the fullback. Oh, the whole... He went that night and spoke to the other coaches and the whole session...

it was Ron Greenwood you know fullbacks used to stand on the halfway line and weren't allowed to cross they used to stand there you know waiting for the ball to come suddenly we had attacking fullbacks making two against one overlaps and that was Ron near post runs Geoff Hurst where Geoff scored all his goals Martin Peters at West Ham and that was all Ron Greenwood's work you know putting

pulling away, leaving space, attacking space, taking defenders away to leave the space that you want to attack, which you did so well over the years. But that was Ron. Because before that, centre forwards would stand there, you'd hang the ball up and they'd just try to jump above a centre half and head a goal. You know, suddenly Hurstie was getting movement that people couldn't mark and Martin Peters. But that was Ron Greenwood's

work on the training ground. So we were brought up really with amazing coaching and ideas every day was exciting to watch him, you know, and be part of it. - Your first role was in North America, wasn't it? - I went out to America, yeah. I went out to Seattle. I left Bournemouth, when I finished at Bournemouth, I went out to Seattle Sounders. Went out with a mate of mine, Jimmy Gabriel. Jimmy played at Everton back in the day in the cup winning team for Everton.

Jimmy was a great midfield player, Scottish international. And Jimmy went out to America, played the first year and then became the coach of the Seattle Sounders. And I went out there with Jimmy and they were great times. We played in the Kingdome. My first game there, I went over with Bobby and Jeff Hurst. We all went to Seattle together. And our first game, we played the New York Cosmos with Pele. We opened a new stadium, 66,000-all-seater stadium in Seattle and Pele and...

Beckenbauer Carlos Alberto the right back of Brazil was an incredible player they was all at the Cosmos at that time so it was great times Gosh about Bobby Moore because obviously he left us way too young World Cup with him with England truly great footballer what was he like as a person I met him once I was lucky enough to meet him once but I obviously didn't get to know him no it makes me go yeah I couldn't tell you how much I loved him Gary as a person as a

He was just incredible, man. You know, he was just class. He was just so special. Everybody, you never met anybody in football who didn't love him.

You know, you'd meet Norman Hunter, who, if it hadn't been for Bob, he would have won 50 more caps. You know, Norman played left side in centre half for Leeds, you know, as you know, he was a great player in his own right. But Bobby kept him out of the team all them years. But every time I used to see Norman, and I did my coaching back... Norman bites your legs, Hunter, isn't it? Yeah, but Norman would say, you know, as Mauro, they all... Alan Ball, they love Mauro. Mike Somerby, you know...

Ozzy, Peter Osgood, all them great players, they all idolised Bobby because he was just so special. He just had a lovely way with him. You never saw him kick anybody. He played the game, Gary. He'd play, read the game. If you'd have gone and watched him play, you'd have come back. I said, do me a report on Bobby Moore. We're looking at him and what do you think?

I said, "How big is he?" He said, "Just under six foot." "Is he not very big?" We were sent, you know. "Good in the air?" "No, he can't edit." "Is he quick?" "No, he's got no pace." He went, "Okay, bosh, that's the end of him." But he had a football brain.

He used to go up with a centre-forward, make out a challenge and centre-forward would jump. Big Wynne Davis or Ron Dack, the great editors of the ball, they'd flick it on. Bobby had dropped off 10 yards, catch it on his chest and play. He was a yard in front of everybody in terms of his reading of the game. And as a person off the pitch, as I say, he was just special. We all idolised him. What's the biggest difference between...

Playing for a team or managing a team? Big difference, Gary. I mean, you take all that responsibility when you're the manager, you know. Affects you more? Oh, it affects you badly. When I look back at how low I used to get, it's quite scary, really. You know, you don't realise probably what you're going through because there was no help or care. You know, you're pretty much on your own.

But when things were, especially when I was at West Ham having a, you know, the early days having been in relegation battles and, you know, the crowd are not happy with you, not happy with the team. How difficult is that when, you know, things are not going well for you? You obviously desperately want them to improve. Yeah.

And the fans are on your back. And it's always the manager's fault. Of course. I'd gone from having, like, nine years at Bournemouth as manager and never had a minute's problem, you know? And then suddenly having a bad time at West Ham early, it was difficult. Did you start questioning yourself? Yeah, yeah, you do, of course, yeah. But...

You feel everybody's... It's strange, you know, you could go into a... You feel everybody's looking at you and talking about you and you're driving your car and the bloke stops next to you at the lights and you think, what's he saying? It was horrendous, really. Almost paranoia. Paranoid, really. You feel responsible for the club, you know, the teams, they love their club, there's all them people who come every week, pay their... And you're letting them down and you're taking it on the chin, basically, aren't you? And the players, I mean...

the players get on with it, don't they still? I know we all go home when you're a player, we've all been players, we all get disappointed, but you get over it quite quickly. You know, the next day Sunday comes and you're ready. But when you're the manager, I mean, it's, you know, it's there non-stop, isn't it? You know? 24-7. 24-7. Even when it's going well, I imagine it's just a

There'll always be something happening. There'll always be an issue. Every day there's an issue. Every day you go in, you're responsible for all them players, aren't you? I met someone recently, Dale Gordon, who played for me back in the day at West Ham. I went to Dubai with my wife and bashed into...

And he was talking about the Christmas party that I, you know, we're in the bottom three. And suddenly I get a word that the players have organised an open top bus from the training ground to the West End of London with a jazz band on top playing, you know, and drinking, you know. And you think, we're bottom of the league. You know, I said, do you realise them people pay your wages? They're going to be, them blokes digging the roads, they're going to be throwing bricks at you. People are going to come out the shops and,

But the players, they're oblivious to it. Did you stop it? Yeah, oh yeah. You did. Yeah, stopped it, yeah. So yeah, definitely stopped it. But they probably still went out somewhere, didn't they? I did it at Tottenham. I said, there'll be no Christmas parties. I said, we're going well in the league. We're second. There's not going to be a Christmas party this year. The lads can have a great... They can enjoy their summer holidays and enjoy. What I didn't know, they'd gone out the night before.

And there was a picture of Ledley. I've said all this on the TV and there's a picture next to Ledley King laying on the floor, a bit worse for wear, in Dublin. It had all been to Dublin the night before I banned the Christmas party. So I was a bit slow off the mark there. Do you lose it in those circumstances? I mean, can you, like... Yeah, yeah, Robbie. I think Robbie organised it, Robbie Keane. But I mean, I love Robbie Keane as a player, as a person and...

So, yeah, and you need this and you need them, don't you, at the end of the day. So you've got to... Do you have to think about that a lot? You know, in terms of management side of things, it's sometimes you need to reprimand a player because he's been out of order, like going to Dublin, for example, without permission or something. Yeah.

But then also you need them in your team. So it must be a constant, like, you go home and think, right, how do I deal with this? Oh, I had it with Paul Merson. I mean, you know, Merson. I've got Merson at Portsmouth. I took over a terrible team at Portsmouth my first season. They're finishing the bottom...

bottom six, sorry, previous four seasons, escaping relegation. I thought, what am I doing? I've got no chance here, you know. In fact, a mate of mine rung me, I swear to God, he rung me up and said, Harry, I'm going to have a grand on your team at 33-1.

I said, Alan, we are useless. I said, don't waste your money. I said, we'd do well not to get relegated. I said, if I can finish out at the bottom six, I'll be delighted. Anyway, I signed Merson on the Thursday before the season. John Gregory rang me, said, Harry, look, would you fancy Paul Merson? I said, we can't afford him, you know, at Portsmouth. I said, what's he on? He said, he's on 20 grand a week. He said, what can you pay him?

I said, three grand. He said, okay, we'll pay 17. You take him. He said, I just want to shift him. You should have rumbled then, shouldn't you? I need to move him, you know? And I brought Merson. He changed everything. He was so good. I made him captain, number 10. He ran the games. He...

Every week he scored or he made the goals. And suddenly we start the season well and off we go and we're top of the league. And we get to Christmas. Your mate's going, yeah. He never spoke to me again because we actually won the league. So it cost him 33 grand. Plus he's each way back 40 grand. And that was the end of our friendship. But Merson is just destroying the league. No one can deal with him. He's playing balls and he's scoring goals.

and then he comes to me we play Man United away third round of the DFA Cup we're top of the league championship Merson comes to me we get beat at Man United 4-3 play ever so well get beat by the odd goal great game he comes to me on the Monday he said Harry I've got a few problems you know he said what's the matter Merson he said well I've been gambling a lot and

I've been drinking. And me missus called me with another woman and got whatever. He said, can I go to Tony Adams' clinic for a week, 10 days, and they'll sort me out. I said, yeah, no problem, miss.

You know, go away. He said, well, we play next Saturday, Millwall. If I go away after the Millwall game, he said, can I come back the Wednesday week, 10 days? I said, yeah, no problem. We play Millwall on the Saturday, beat Millwall five. Merson gets a couple of goals, runs the game. Away from home, we win at Millwall. He's gone now on the Monday. He's gone to Tony Adams Clinic. On the Thursday that week, I get a phone call from a mate of mine, Michael Tabor. Michael owns Sandy Lanes and whatever. So Michael rings me up.

Harry, I've just seen one of your boys having a chat with one of your boys. I said, oh, no, what's the matter, Michael? I said, who? He said, Paul Merson. I said, what's the matter, Michael? I thought Michael must be in the clinic with him. He went, what do you mean? I said, well, he's in Tony Adams' clinic. He said, he's not, he's on the beach in Barbados. LAUGHTER

I went, no, it can't be Merson. He said, I know Merson. He said, I had a chat with him. He said, yeah, good lad. He said, he looks well. Now, what do I do? We're top of the league, January, right? Portsmouth had never been anywhere near the Premier. I'll be honest, I'm going to sack him. No, he's took a little bit. I'm going to sack him on the Thursday, Friday. I'm going to sack him. Saturday, I'm going to sack him.

Sunday, I think, hang on, if I sack Merson, we can't go up. The players loved him. I loved him. The crowd idolised him. So Wednesday comes and he comes back into training, on the training. He's got the best suntan I've ever seen. It's January, right? Comes up, all right, Merson? He said, I feel a lot better, Harry. Thanks for that. I said, all right, Merson, no problem. Anyway, on the Saturday we played,

We won 2-0 on the Saturday, got both the goals. Probably done him more good going to Barbados. Probably did, yeah. So he stayed to the end of the year, won the league and I released him at the end of the season. Did you ask him about sunbeds at Tony Adams Clinic? Oh, I don't. So you manage individuals in a different way. Of course. You have to, don't you? Yeah, yeah. I mean, like we talked about Terry earlier, wasn't we, Terry? Terry Benrose, yeah. I mean, how fantastic was he?

Terry. Amazing. I loved the documentary about him. What a football man, what a character, fantastic. But with Gazza and all the boys, you know, when they went away before the Euros, you know, I mean, he had a... The dentist chair. Dentist chair, he could have easily gone, well, you took the liberty, you're out of, you know, but...

Yeah. Managing different kinds of... Of course, yeah, everyone's different, isn't that? Yeah. Circumstances. You've seen the story about the Lopetegui thing that's rumbling on this week? Yeah. With West Ham. I'm just bringing that up because she mentioned West Ham earlier and obviously you were there for a number of years. How is it with dealing with chairman at times...

like this where, do you know as a manager sometimes, I think they're interviewing other people about this. You must get to hear occasionally. Yeah. Are they a disrespected bunch, football managers? Yeah, I mean... The way they're treated. Oh, for sure. I mean, in his case there, you know, I suppose he's in a situation, Gary, maybe where he's thinking, okay, if I refuse to go in and don't take training, I've read the...

he's going to get a payoff, isn't he? He's probably got a year's money to come if he gets a sack. So he'd probably take his year's money and go back to Spain or wherever, you know, and work somewhere there or whatever he does.

Maybe if he doesn't go in and honour his contract and take the training and refuse, maybe there'll be a case then, oh, well, you broke your contract. So I suppose he's kept his head down for, okay, I'm going to go. I know that I'm going to, but it is disrespectful. You know, I mean, how can you be? But I've had it, you know, I've had it. I had it at Tottenham at the end, you know. I knew that they were, yeah, I had never had a clue. It was completely out of the blue to me. We finished fourth in the league. That must have been...

Oh, good. I mean, you were doing a great job at Spurs. Yeah. Yeah, it was going great. I mean, we finished fourth and, you know, we'd chained the Champions League. Then Chelsea got to the final of the Champions League.

that year finished sixth in the league and then Jamie said to me and Graham Souness you know we fancy coming over to Munich to watch the game I thought well Chelsea won't win at Bayern Munich it's in Munich Stadium Bayern Munich were a fantastic team I thought yeah okay we're going to go home Graham had a pal with a private plane out of Bournemouth

We're going to get the plane, land on the runway. He's got a car to pick us up. We're going straight to the golf course, play golf, go out for dinner that night, go to the game next day. I can watch the game in the box with the boys. He

Yeah, Chelsea. So when they won, it was like disaster. I had to walk around the pitch at the end. You're English. You're supposed to cheer the English team. No, I'd gone from, I knew what was coming. I've got them qualifying from Champions League to suddenly now Chelsea. Of course, that's right. You missed out on that.

They won it. They finished sixth in the league. So now I've got to walk around the pitch. They kept us in. They kept the Chelsea crowd in. At the end of the game, I walked around the pitch with Graeme Souness and all the Chelsea crowd in unison sung to me Thursday night, Channel 5. You know, it was like... Europa League. Yeah. So the Europa League. So that was... And then I got back home and then suddenly someone said to me, oh...

I don't know if you know, but Daniel's had a meeting with one or two, and he mentioned a couple of managers at the time that he'd been meeting with, and suddenly that was it, gone. So did you go in and confront him then when you heard those rumours? Yeah, yeah. And saying, well, what's going on here? Yeah, yeah, what's happened, you know, what's going on with...

It was a real swing. It was Christmas. We'd had a Christmas. He took us all out Christmas time, Daniel. And my staff and a couple of directors spoke and made a presentation of me and spoke. So Joe Jordan said, in fact, we came out and Joe Jordan said to me, Harry, they say Daniel's got no feelings. He certainly shows some feelings towards you, the way he spoke about you. It was fantastic. A few months later, I was gone. So it was quite a shock, yeah.

He must have played for some interesting, whether you call them chairmen or CEOs or whatever they are. I would think it's a constant battle with them. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Whether it's trying to get a player in. Yeah. And the interference levels, I understand, are probably more than possibly fans think. Oh, some clubs for sure, Gary. Some clubs would be. Have you had it? Not too bad. Daniel was...

No, Daniel never... Listen, I'm sure he tried harder if he fancied a player. He had the word from his pals, you know, that, yeah, look, he's...

But I found him okay. I've got to be truthful, you know, to work. Because I think Joe was the, Joe Lewis was, obviously Joe was massive at the club, well, he owned the club. So, but no, I was fine with Daniel in the main. You know, I'm fine, really. I really did. But there are certainly clubs where I know that chairman, you know, they pick and choose the players. You know, they've got their own sort of scouts, if you like, and

you know recruitment people and so the manager's got no yeah and you're only as good as a manager as the players and yeah we can all kid ourselves about what managers can do you know good players good if you've got good players you've got a chance and yeah it's ultimately ultimately about the quality i mean obviously coaches of course you can see the really great with say pep guard yeah how he improves individuals within the team and they all seem to improve absolutely but

by and large the teams with the most money finished and spent it wisely finished near the top every year you can more or less I know this year maybe Forest might buck the trend finishing the top six but normally you can name the top six can't you Leicester did it obviously it was incredible what they did that year

But in the main, it's the same teams every year. They've got the best players, the best squads, haven't they? And that's the way it tends to work, you know. You were the last English manager to win a trophy. Yeah. Still, 2008. I know. When you won the FA Cup, which is an amazing achievement. Yeah. What is the problem with English coaches and managers? I'm sure there's some good lads in the lower divisions, Gary, given the opportunity, could do fantastic. Yeah.

but they don't get the chance do they it's sort of the all foreign owners there's very few British owners now you know all the clubs are owned by foreign owners and so they come in even I was you know Bournemouth I got a Bournemouth every week Gary O'Neill was doing fantastic job at Bournemouth and then suddenly okay the guy who's coming has done an even better job but you know at the time you thought well how can you sack Gary O'Neill what a job he's doing but

But they've all got someone in mind, haven't they? Somebody, you know, recommends. Do you think perhaps it's down to identity? So if you get German coaches, you know what you're getting, don't you? You know, the gig and press and the high and the intensity levels. If you go with a Spanish coach, you also not know what you're getting, the pressing and the keeping the ball and passing it around and stuff. What is...

an English coach's identity because I think we've gone from a stage, obviously, and probably the quality of the pitches was important and how we taught our youngsters to play and all that stuff. And it was a very direct football game.

wasn't it? Very long ball stuff. Probably necessarily so because of conditions. But perhaps English coaches are not seen as having an identity. Now, probably that's changing a bit with the younger coaches starting to play, you know, like Eddie Howell and Russell Martin starting to play with the building up of the ball. Do you think that's perhaps been part of the problem? Probably. But I mean, the problem you have as well, though, when you say Russell Martin...

You know, he's tried to play that way and got crucified. You know, but it doesn't matter. Our Russell Martin had played at Southampton and they were going to go down. They haven't got the players. The players ain't good enough. You can do... They've got a new guy coming and they've got beat 5-0 by Brentford last week. He came and said, no, we're not going to play this way. We're going to play, you know, we have to play slightly different. We're going to maybe go longer. But they've got big... They're not good enough, the players. So that is the problem. It doesn't matter how you play. And I think everybody...

even English coaches, you've got your own identity, how you like to play. Yes, John Dyche plays a certain way. And others play a different way, which is sort of my point, really. Yeah, I mean, I love to play, you know, I love attacking teams. I play with two wingers, where if I had them, I can't play with two wingers if I haven't got good wingers. But I'd say go to the top. I mean, I've got two fantastic wingers in Bowe and Aaron Lennon. So it's right up my street, you know, they're set up for me, lovely.

But if you haven't got them, you've got to adjust to how you play, obviously. So I think everyone's got their own, you know, Sam Allardyce and people like Sam. You know, Sam was much more forward thinking, what people give him credit for, wasn't he, Sam? You know, as a manager, he was probably the first one doing all the stuff now that we read about, you know? Okay, fascinating stuff. Let's take a break and we'll talk more things management when we come back.

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Hi, everyone. It's Katty here from the Rest is Politics US. Anthony Scaramucci and I want to tell you about our new series that looks at one of the darkest days in modern American history, the Capitol riots of January the 6th. You know, four years have passed since Donald Trump supporters stormed the Capitol building and tried to overturn the 2020 election results. And Katty and I are going to explore the tensions and the

personalities at the heart of that storm. Yeah, we're going to look at the whole story, starting off with, of course, the 2020 election result itself, Joe Biden's victory, Donald Trump's attempts to undermine that result right up until January the 6th and those horrifying scenes that all of us watched on television back then. So don't miss it. Go and search The Rest Is Politics US, wherever you get your podcasts, to hear just how Donald Trump tried to defy

American Democracy. And we've included a clip from the series for you to listen to at the end of this episode.

We're in the transfer window now. I mean, you're the epitome of the transfer window manager, aren't you? Do you miss leaning out the car window? Do you know what? It was funny. People said that to me. I used to feel sorry, Gary, for the people. They'd be there at seven o'clock in the morning and it's raining and they're out there freezing cold. They're ignored. Being ignored. Driving through a puddle, splashing them.

And so they've got a job to do. And I swear, so I'd stop and talk to them. You know, I didn't want it. It was nothing, no gains for me to talk to them. But they had a job. Just, you know, at least they've got something to send back to the studio. They've got a bit of an interview with me or whatever. So that was the reason. But I always tended to go into clubs where we were struggling. That's why you get the job, isn't it? You go into a football club. I walk into Tottenham because they're...

Tottenham had good players, but for whatever reason, they couldn't win a game the first eight games of the season. So I walk into a team that's struggling. So you might have to, although at Tottenham, I didn't really bring too many players in because I felt that we had the nucleus of Bale was there, Modric was there, you know, good players. Lennon was there.

So it wasn't so bad. But normally you go in and you've got to do something because unless you think you're, you know, a genius who can suddenly turn a team at the bottom of the league into a top six team, you've got them, you know, the players are obviously not good enough or there's a problem with them somewhere and you need to change one or two. And you need to change something.

what's it like that this period particularly the January transfer window where not that much happens what's the vibe like between you and perhaps the chairman and all that does it can it get a little bit stressful it can when you know you need some help and you need some players yeah I

I mean, Tottenham, Daniel loves this win. He loves it. Yeah, he loves the last minute bet. He loves the deal, doesn't he? You know, buy one, get one free. That's his game, isn't it? I mean, I went there when I was at Portsmouth. I went back to Portsmouth from Southampton and Portsmouth was stuck at the bottom of the league. And I went back and I really did take over the worst team I'd ever taken. I left a really good team behind and all them lads had been got rid of.

and they brought in loads of new players from God knows where. Just for those that don't know, you returned to Portsmouth after Spurs. Returned to Portsmouth after Southampton. After Southampton. Yeah, I went from Portsmouth to Southampton, which wasn't a clever move. I don't think the Portsmouth fans appreciated you. No, they didn't. No, that was a very difficult time. And then went back to Portsmouth and took over a team that was really struggling. And then went down, funny enough, went to meet Daniel, trying to sign...

trying to sign Darren Anderson and came away with Pedro Mendes, Noe Pamerol and Sean Davis instead. How did that happen? Well, Darren was... It was not available. Well, he... I don't know. I don't want to... But he had a fantastic contract, apparently. Fair enough. Yeah, no one could earn more than him or something. And I think Klinsman came and suddenly, yeah...

So he was out of our reach. And then we end up, Daniel started saying, well, if you take these two, you can have this one for nothing. All three of them are better than anything I've got. So I ended up taking the three of them. The chairman was up for it. And he'd done us a special one, Daniel's special deals.

And they came in and did fantastic for me, all three of them. And they kept us up. What's your best story in the transfer window? Oh, my God. What's your favourite? I don't know. Peter Odowingi was... Oh, you were at QPR then, weren't you? Yeah. It was in the car park or something. Well, what had happened, we're trying to get the deal done and we were struggling at QPR. And I'm talking to Peter's agent and I'm saying, look, time's running out. The chairman at West Brom wouldn't budge on the price.

He wanted to sell him, but we... So now we're playing poker with each other, you know, my chair, you know. So I thought, well, they've got to give. He wants to sell him, you know. But it's dragging on and on and on. So I said to Peter's agent, look, get him down here because we haven't even spoke terms, you know. We've got to get him here and get it done before... So drive, come down here, plot up somewhere nearby. At least you're in the area. And I was sitting watching Sky Television and went in there with the chairman. Suddenly...

The Sky cameras pick up Peter Odewinge getting out of a car, walking into QB. Oh, they said, Peter Odewinge's right there off this road. He's obviously signing. And their chairman's watching it in West Brom. Yeah. And so that was the end of that transfer. Peter Odewinge was back up the road. Yeah. And he wouldn't budge the chairman. Brilliant. He had to go back there and play, which wasn't easy for him as well. Who's the best player you've ever signed? Probably, I would say, Paolo Di Canio.

It was the boldest signing I ever made. Is he as bonkers as was made out? He's bonkers, but he's a genius. Yeah. He was fantastic, Gary. I used to love watching him play. I'd watched it on TV, Celtic. I'm watching Celtic play and he's like a little kid in the playground. He's taking throw-ins. He's running around, wants to do everything, you know?

And then he obviously went to Sheffield Wednesday and we'd go to Sheffield Wednesday and he'd do things against us. I mean, I used to say, wherever he is in that final third, the nearest man latch onto him, do not leave him until we get possession back. And I just thought he was so good. And then obviously when he pushed a referee over, Mr. Alcock and, you know,

And he became available. A member of Santa, Terry Brown, the chairman at West Ham, I said, we've got to get a striker. We can't score. You know, we were struggling. He said, yeah, Harry, we do. We need somebody for sure. You know? I said, I want to get Palo, take Palo de Canio. I'll never forget it. He went like...

Before he's had any guns. Anybody but him. Anybody. I don't care who you say it. Please. Not Di Canio. I said, he's fantastic, Terry. He'd be brilliant. The crowd would love him. Oh, please, Harry. Anyway, he backed me to be fair. And he was a genius. But he was high maintenance. Was he? In what way? He was a fantastic trainer.

his body he didn't drink he ate the right food you'd been out you know that's the absolute opposite of high maintenance yeah no but he's also when he came he wanted everybody else out to be he couldn't understand I've got razor rudder you know he'd knock on my door put

Boss, Razor Radek, we are warming up this morning. He's there. Oh, last night I drank 14 pints and had three kebabs. We are. You have to speak with him. Yeah, okay, Paolo, don't worry. But, you know, he'd come in in the morning and if he'd had a bad night, I think if his missus, the spaghetti wasn't up the standard, he'd come in next day.

You know, he'd walk in my, I could hear him. He'd walk past my office and boot the door. He'd place his shit out, you know, he was placed here. And then if he's in a good mood, he'd come in, had the sunglasses on. He'd look like a million dollars, lovely suit, singing Volare or something. He'd come in and you knew he's okay today, you know. But I used to have to handpick the teams. I'd put him on a team in the morning with Stuart Pearce on his team, Stevie Lohman, anyone who might boot him.

would it be on his team? Because if anyone kicked him, it would go off. If you kicked him, he'd fight you. So I used to have to handpick the teams. In fact, I remember Johnny Moncur saying to me one morning, he said, that missed a goal.

I said, no, no, it's a goal. He went, oh, okay, yes, Paulo. He said, fair enough. Because he knew we had to just keep him happy. Monday to Friday, keep him happy. Even if he hit one wide, you gave him a goal. Yeah, one wide, give him a goal. Cool, done. That's the kind of coach I want to play for. Because Saturday, he could go out and win the game for me. If he was right, he was just that good. And I absolutely loved him. But he was a gamble, as I say, at the time because he'd,

of his history and everything else but the fans absolutely loved him at West Ham he absolutely he'd be if you asked the West Ham fans he'd be in their all time best team for sure after knowing when I spoke to West Ham fans yeah what's the most difficult aspect of

of being a coach? Obviously, you know, picking teams, Gary, is always, you go off them, but, you know, they love you when they're playing. They hate you when they're not, don't they? Their wives hate you, their kids hate you, their mums and dads hate you. You know, it ain't a lot of fun, is it? But you've got to leave people out. When you're leaving people out, you know, I've had, I mean, I've had some funny ones with people that I've left out, you know, who don't, who just don't want to, you know, don't want to sit on the bench, you know, and suddenly...

It's hard work, you know. I used to walk in a dressing room and you'd say, "Okay, Gary, can I see you a minute?" And they'd go out and you'd say, explain why they're not playing. "John, can I see you a minute?"

But in the end, I thought, this is ridiculous. Listen, anyone not playing, come see me on Monday. This is the team I picked. This is the team that's going to win today. We're all in it together. You know, if you've got any problems, I'll talk to you on Monday. Just let's all concentrate on the game. Because all that taking, once you take someone out there, oh, he's not playing, you know, that was how it was back in the day, you know? I think it's probably, even though the squads are bigger now, there's more rotation. I still think there's probably...

And also, I suppose, within that, you can get players that can be a bit poisonous of the dressing room and make life difficult for you. Do you know what I found? I found that I knew the team of the opposition every week from somebody at the other club. Really? It shocked me when I was at Portsmouth. First game of the season, Knox Forest, Nigel Kwasi, they're playing free at the back today. Are they?

I thought they played with a four. No, they're playing a five. And he gave me the team.

Imagine one of his mates who's not in the team at Notts Royals to tell them. And then every week the same thing happened. Someone was coming. He's not playing. They're playing. He's out. He's playing out. He's doing. I found it strange. And then you become, you think, hang on. I'm worried about your players. Do I show my hand today on Thursday and Friday? Because it must have gone on an awful lot everywhere. When I found it really strange, I thought.

I didn't realise that sort of, I never realised that was going on. And that'll be because players out the side don't want their team to win so they can get back in the top. They've all got the hump, yeah. Yeah, got the hump. I hate you. Do you ever think managers got you out of a role or played a significant part in perhaps you quitting? Other managers? By the players. Do you think there's ever been a situation where it's caused you that kind of issue? You never know, do you?

Players have got the ear of the chairman now. Agents have. Agents is another aspect of the game. I'd gone to Tottenham. I'd only been there three weeks. Got off to a good start, beat Bolton, went to Arsenal and drew 4-0. Then I get a phone call from a reporter. He said, Harry, I got a report and said, you've lost a dressing room. I said, I've only been here three weeks. I didn't even know I had it. I hadn't found it yet. I hadn't found it yet. So I said, yeah, really? Yeah.

So I said, who's it? He said, well, it's come from an agent. So I guessed two players who weren't happy that I'd left out and I knew their agent was. So I straightened up. He said, you should be a private detective. I had it spot on. He was just trying to cause a problem, get an article in the paper about the players weren't happy with something or whatever. And that's how it is, you know.

I've had players, again, ring their agent, been left out, they've rung their chairman. While the team's having a warm-up, they've been left out of the squad. They're on the phone to their agent who's ringing my chairman to tell him, you know, the manager don't know what he's doing or whatever. You need good chairman in those situations, don't you? They do talk more, Gary, now than, you know, they become...

It's very, very different now. A lot of them do mix, you know, they've all got agents on the firm who they deal with most of the time and they've got players. And yeah, it's not like, you know, it's very, very different. What would you say the best piece of advice would be to maybe a footballer who's just finishing his career, wants to go into coaching and management? Well, I mean, it's so difficult, isn't it? But...

you've obviously got to get your coaching badges first now and it's become very difficult. It takes time. It takes time. When I did it, it was a two-week job at Lillyshaw. You went to Lillyshaw to take your full coaching badge and you were there two weeks and you either got it or you didn't get it and the chances were if you was an ex-player, you had a good chance of getting it. But now, I mean, it's a long, drawn-out, so many different processes you've got to go through, haven't they, and exams and everything. Yeah.

But, yeah, I mean, if you love the game, you know, it's like you need a break, don't you? Somewhere someone sees something in you and gives you a job. But, you know, don't give up. If you love it, get into it. And coaching, I love it. People always thought, oh, Ari's a wheeler-dealer. I love coaching. I was a footballer. That was what I enjoyed. That was the best part of it. We've talked a lot about the difficult sides of being a manager.

And I've often wondered, crikey, why did they do it? What is it about it? What's so addictive about it? Well, you've only got to look at the moment. Wayne Rooney. Wayne doesn't have to do it. No, but just really loved it. Frank doesn't have to do it. Frank does it. And they want to be successful and they want to do it.

You know, but what I would say, the bit of advice I'd give any of them is go to a club where you've got a chance to do something. Don't go to a club because there's nothing more that people like than to see a top player. Do well. Fail. All fail. Fail. Yeah. They love it. You know, suddenly Wayne Rooney, he's not a football manager. Frank Lampard, whatever. They love it. Steven Gerrard, they love it. You know, when you're a good player, they love to see you. That's sad. Who's they?

Well, the press really, isn't it? The press. But that's down to jealousy of stuff. Yeah, jealousy. And lots of times, you know, different people cut me out. Rooney's... Unfortunately, he had a pop and gave me a little go at it, but he did all right at Derby. You know, I speak to him. I've spoken to Wayne about the game. He's great on the game. He is. He really understands. He understands the game. But if you're working with players that...

Not good enough, Murray. Of course not. He went to Plymouth. No disrespect to Plymouth. Plymouth's a good club with potential. It's out on a limb. They can get their 15,000, 18,000 people there. But the players are Division One players. They're not Championship. They stayed up last year, last game of the season. And they'll probably almost certainly go down this year. And he's took that job on. I thought, Wayne, you've got no chance there. What are you doing?

And sure enough, it fails and then suddenly that could be the end of him as a manager. And Frank took on a tough job at Coffey. Would you have advised him? Does he ask you advice? No, I spoke to him about it. I said, look, they've just sacked a manager who did a great job, Mark Robbins. Ain't an easy job, Frank. He'd been there a few years and done a good job. Yeah, done a good job, done a great job.

But no, Frank, he desperately get in and have a go again and Coventry has got potential. What is it about the job, though? What's the absolute buzz that makes people like Frank Lampard and Wayne Rooney and Steven Gerrard and yourself? What is it? Is that buzz of...

And also, what do you do? Okay, it's different for someone like you. You know, you've made a great career. But what do you do every day when you wake up? You've got to have some kind of, and what do you know apart from, what would Wayne know really, so Wayne Rooney, apart from playing football? You know, he came in at 16 in the first team. He's played, you know, in Frank, it's their life, playing. And now suddenly you wake up and, what am I going to do that day? I don't play golf. I don't.

What am I going to do? You've got to have something. And being part of a team and going in and trying, that buzz of winning. Is that what it is? The buzz. That must be amazing, though, isn't it? The buzz is fantastic. More than when you're a player? Yes. Yeah. You drive home on a Saturday night, come in West Ham or...

And I'd sing. I'd be in the car on my own singing away. Like, people must have thought you were mad pulling alongside you, you know. Oh, yes. And you can't wait to go out Saturday night, have a nice glass of wine, bit of foot grub, go out with your wife for dinner. Love it, you know. When you got beat, oh, my God. So the highs and lows. I say, I used to say to my wife, don't, please, don't. She never made her go out with anybody on Saturday night. Make her rain, because if we get beat, I'm no good. I can't talk. I can't get out of it. Yeah.

And it was sad. It was a shocking way. Do you sometimes think to yourself, why do I let it affect me so much? Yeah, that's how it used to get me. I couldn't bring myself around to talk to anybody. I just want to go to bed. And I quite often did just go and go to bed. It's really...

Quite scary. Were you ever close to getting the England job? Because there were rumours at one point. Gary, in betting terms, I was 10 to 1 on. I was like... I think it was only two Englishmen. It was me and Roy. Yeah. And so it was... And everybody, you know, people were saying to me...

Richard Bevan, the chairman of the LMA, and everybody said, look, you know, they'd heard I had the job, you know. And they said Roy wouldn't even go for an interview because he knew that I'd had it. He thought I would get it for sure. So what happened? I don't know. You don't know to this day? No, never heard. I never got to. I did have a, I mean, whether it was, I did have a buyout clause that was,

quite horrendous in my contract at Tottenham. I think whoever took me would have to pay back because Tottenham paid £5 million compensation to Portsmouth when they took me. So they had to pay that back and they also had to pay back all the wages that I'd earned in my time at Tottenham.

That was part of the deal. Daniel had done quite a deal there. Strange deal, really. I didn't do it. But they wouldn't have... Do you think Spurs would have stood in your way? I don't know. Daniel would have wanted his money. I don't know, do you? I wouldn't bet against it, but I don't know whether that was a reason. I really wouldn't know, Gary. I don't know.

But no, that was it. Is that a regret? Disappointment? I would love to have done it, yeah. I think we'd love to have seen you there. I'd love to have had it, yeah. I mean, there were some good players, weren't there? And I'd love to have, I'd have really enjoyed having a go with them. Was that gut-wrenching when you've heard? It was okay, but I was managing Tottenham as well and I had a good job, good team.

But the unfortunate thing was about five months later, I never had any job. So it was quite a strange finish, really. Cheers, Daniel. I've gone from having to take my choice of two jobs, probably thinking, do I stay or do I go and manage England, to suddenly managing Cum Albion and whoever. What was your happiest time in management? Probably Bournemouth. Yeah, great time. My first, yeah, nine years, no training pitch.

I was laughing with someone the other day. We were talking, going to play York away on a Wednesday night, Darlington away on a Saturday, saying to the chairman, can we stay up, chairman? You know, York, time we get back from York, it'll be three or four in the morning, three o'clock in the morning. We've got to go back to Darlington and play. Can we stay up? No, Harry, we can't afford to stay up. Hotels. Hotel, coach. So me and my assistant, Keith Williams at the time,

We hired two minibuses. We went to a little old company in Bournemouth. We had two old green minibuses and we got on the phone and we booked a couple of little guest houses

where we could get three in a room, four in one room. We took like 13 players for the two. You only had one sub. So we took 13 players up, beat York on a Wednesday night, went to Darlington. I'm pulling at Darlington. I'm driving the minibus. I'm the manager of Bournemouth, the old third division. And my mum is beyond, hello, mate, got the team on me. He went, oh, yeah, all right. He thought it was a wind-up, you know?

And one at Darlington, one at York, one at Darlington, sung all the way home, stopped the fish and chips. Incredible days, you know, fantastic. No training ground. Every day getting thrown off, training in the park in Bournemouth near the football ground and getting thrown off by the park keeper. It

It was as it was. You've come full circle, haven't you? You've come full circle. You're right back at where you are now with the best, worst team. The worst team. That's where I started. It ain't where you start. It's where you finish. It is. So that's it. I'm back there. When can we see you on the touchline? Well, we can follow it on YouTube. So I'm back up there again next week. Next week? Yeah. Another game. I was there last...

The last game, it rained non-stop, Gary. I swear, you know, for 90 minutes, I just stood there. No cover, no umbrella. Oh, no. Just got soaked. And we played quite well. You just didn't want to be the Wally in the Broly, did you? No, I didn't. That was it. I said, I'm not going to be the Wally in the Broly. No one's ever going to do that again, are they? No, no.

You can see Marnie just now getting soaked thinking, Steve McLaren, you're to blame for this. Don't do that, whatever you do. It's been fun, yeah? And it will be fun this season. Yeah, it'll be great. Yeah, it'll be good fun. I've enjoyed it. It's great. The lads love their football, so that's it. That's what it's all about. Cool. Whatever level you play at, isn't it, Harry? Absolutely. Get out and play, yeah. So that's this week's episode. We'll see you without a brolly. Yeah, definitely. You can follow that on YouTube this week. Search Specsavers Best Worst Teams.

That's it for this week's episode of The Rest Is Football. Goodbye from me. As promised, here's a clip from The Rest Is Politics US miniseries. Trump is naturally a conspiracy theorist fueler. He will fuel the fire of any conspiracy theory because he's always seen himself as an outsider and he wants to foment conspiracy.

the people from the outside to attack the people from the inside. So he's developing these ideas that he eventually uses in January on the 6th of January. And the ideas are there's misinformation out there. There's lies out there. Let's use these lies as fodder to attack the people on the inside. He's doing it with COVID. I think hydroxychloroquine works well.

You may remember this. I took hydroxychloroquine. Mr. President, you took hydroxychloroquine? Yeah. Yeah, I'm on it. I took it. And this is the beginnings. This is the kernels.

If you want to hear the rest of the show, go and search The Rest Is Politics US wherever you get your podcasts.