Why Design Matters: Lessons from Stripe, Lyft and Airbnb | Design Review
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Today on design review will be doing something a little bit different. I'll be interviewing Kitty deal stripe.

head of design, the gravitation polis to mediocrity. It's never easy. There is no lack and White answer. Like you ship and win, it's this, or you ship. And with that, it's best of what trying to solve and who return to solve.

IT. Kd has LED design teams at some of the most successful companies in silicon value, like left airbnb and now strike. So I SAT down with her to learn about how design play a role in their success, and how you can build a culture of high quality design from the earliest days of your started.

Hey, thank you for for having us today.

Thanks for being here stripe, and thanks for having me.

So our audiences, early founders, and I think you and I are very much a line that we would love to see more great quality design in the world. So I am excited for them all to learn from you today about how to do that, what design looks like and how to bring that to their startups at the earliest stages. Maybe to start, why don't you tells a little IT about your role here? It's stripe and and a little bit of uh, the design team Operators here.

So I lead the design organza and what that means is that we have the product designers, uh researchers, content designers that work hand in hand with engineers, product managers building the product. So for us, that's start billing, that's the check out that's pulling together all of the various products that show up in our dashboard or in our consumer interfaces.

But also a part of the design org, ization is the brain studio team that works on our advertisements. Our events are branding the books. We design its strike press and then lastly, the website team strike back home.

Everybody watching this will probably be familiar with stripe and left and airbnb and you know a number of of the companies that you've worked at um and they're also known for having great design and a great user experience. What is the role that you think design played in the success of those companies?

It's really interesting if you think also like back to the early days, right? So like urban b was creating a product to that was pretty different at the time, right? Very novel, like i'm going to stay in somebody else's house like i've never done that before.

I don't know. So design was instrumental in making that something that people could identify with and gain confidence in, of the safety, security and enjoyment of that experience. And so the founders did, in an incredible job, bringing very thoughtful details to that experience, like cow's, is gonna.

How was the money exchange? How are they communicating? How do we portray IT on the internet? And by doing that, and really sweating over everyone of those details, I think they made IT more approach able for somebody to try something new.

And I mean, you look at them now that just like you don't grow in in such wonderful ways, they're continuing to make design such an integral part of IT. And that same thing for stripe, you know, strike, you know, the founders when they were creating, you know, the early days of these products. IT is know also something new and different, like people taking payments online, but they had never solved the problem in that way.

And you know, these founders care a lot about every detail, user experience. And I put that in to the early days of the work, such that people could feel more confidence by seeing that, how much they cared about the details of, you know, just how the interface is portrayed, that like, oh, maybe then you also are gonna take very good care of my money and you're also gona take care of these other parts. IT builds that confidence, builds that trust and also makes the product more functional and easier to use.

Yeah, it's interesting from the outside a bit. A lot of people think of L B N B as the U I that you interact with, lift the APP that you call a car, you know, strike maybe the developer API, or you know, other tools that you have. And they don't think of the holistic experience of what goes on behind the scenes there.

And I think one thing that all of those companies have in common is that you need incredibly high levels of trust more than like any other type of b to B, B software is strike. It's moving your money with lift. You're getting in a strangers car with, uh, airbnb are staying in a strangers house. And if IT didn't look trustworthy and the experience was not a well oiled machine that felt really friendly and approached and trustworthy, I don't think those businesses would have work.

I don't know what do you think? I I absolutely agree that there is a huge park to that and you just think about the small details and sometimes it's subconscious, right? Is that that you see a typo and O, K, that's like a little weird. And then maybe something else is just like not really laid out correctly or that like you close at the box, then you lost all your work and then have to started again.

You start to question, and if they haven't put that off right, if they haven't got in that detail, what other detail aren't they getting right? And I think people also have to consider, you know, you just point IT out that like these are companies that are at reliant on that trust in that relationship. But if you think about just like competition in general, you are reliant on building that anyway, right? Like I there's too many options out there I got.

why? Why would I work with the jennie one when I can work with the one that's going to you more reliably get IT right both on the surface and and underneath? Yeah i'm curious.

you know, building these big companies and having, uh, design be so integral al, to what the companies do, how important is the role the founder there? And also um have you worked at companies where the founder did not care about design and sweat those details like you're talking about quite as much. Maybe they had another focus or you know another thing they're more interested in and like how does that play out in in the .

world of the company, too? IT definitely is a major component because IT is part of the culture. And so I think hopefully, we can agree that design makes a difference in the value in the effectiveness of the product, right? I mean, it's not hard to look around and sea places where that example comes through.

And so there I luckily I think most would say like, yeah, we want to have a well design product. But if they are only thinking about IT in terms of well, it's going to move the numbers, then they are only gonna IT when IT move the numbers. And there are plenty of times when making a design decision, where are you? You're not going to be able to prove IT just yet, maybe eventually, but not right off the bat.

What I think the no founders that were talking about here, right, like brand chesty and joe and and night and then know the color and brothers, is that IT is so fundamental to how they think about building and that they, first and foremost care about who are the users, what do they need, how are they going to do IT, and how do we build something with so much intention on every detail, every part of that experience? How can we make sure that is meticulously thought about and executed on, and having that mindset and then hiring that mindset in every person that enters that company will end up creating this kind of x factor that is very different than the motivation of, like poor. How is this thing going to move the numbers? And so when you encounter one of those difficult decisions of like, is this thing worth IT to do IT or not, that, you know, you can lean on the back of black, well, our pride is telling us that we need to do IT.

How have you seen some of these companies build that from the earliest days to give the space in the permission to actually be able to go that extra mile and delight users and go up and beyond? Yeah.

I think IT is definitely something that again has to kind of come in, in the early days in the culture. And you have to instal IT and you have to exemplify IT is showing that that is important. And then, you know, having the courage to make those hard choices, Frankly, unfortunately, know the gravitation pull is to meet diocles ity.

There are, I would imagine most companies on this planet want to do great work. And they want to say that they will say they want product quality. But what IT really comes down to is those like micro decisions every day.

And are you making the one that is you actually moving the product into a Better place? Or are you letting IT like slip back down to and that courage, you know, is something that the founders can do and they can show that, right? This just like, you know what, actually we're going to hold on this ship.

We're going to take another spin on IT. We're going to ship IT next week because it's important we get that right um and that I think is really hard to do. You can hurt the team like, but we were working on that, yes, but it's more important that we get IT right and we're going to exemplify that.

How do you baLance that with the ethos of ship, early ship? Often you get IT in front of users, get their feedback when you know it's not the best version that I could be .

yeah and I I recognize that you know it's really to say just like stop the ship and great until it's like great and that is just not a possibility, especially you know when you're I absolutely understand the the the need for urgency that started up. But also like even stripe as much larger organization, our users are dependent on what we are providing. And so like we want to get that feature out.

So I would say that you is never easy, either isn't no like right or black and White answer. Like you ship IT win, it's this or you ship, but when is that? But I think it's best always come back to.

Like but what problem we are trying to solve and who are trying to solve IT for? And if this is going to the user experience, if this is gona leave a mark, right? But like you to potentially hinder that first impression that you might make and that's serious enough that you do wanna hold and weight.

But I think there's also attributes to moving fast and and taking things down and maybe much more bite sized ways. So we really leverage beta as a way of getting something out there and most importantly, getting feedback because if you're just like sitting there like crafting IT allong and taken their sweet time but never actually learning from folks, then you you're not getting the product Better. And certainly, you're live in people waiting.

How do you know when you hit that bar? I mean, IT seems like it's kind of a taste thing, but like in your own work, how do you know whether you should wait that extra weekend, you know, do the extra stuff to go the extra mile maybe, or whether it's actually hit the bar and you're ready to move on to the next thing?

I will say, if is one of the hardest parts of the job where you know you're just like, oh, you know you know he is sticking the mud on this and ask for another iteration or not. And is IT worth IT.

I think the ways to make that easier, but definitely not easy, is again, you going back to users, you know what they think? How well is this solving their problem? Is that actually a net positive? Or know is this not really actually moving the needle? Or is IT maybe even know having detrimental costs to IT?

I think the the other piece is that there is you know a number of things that you should think about, like almost like a checklist of things that look for product quality, like a high quality product is highly functional, right? First and foremost, s IT has to have utility, has to serve purpose and solve a problem for laser. Secondly, IT has to be usable, right? So so you can imagine a chair like solves a problem, you can sit IT, but it's like extremely uncomfortable that's not gonna out for you for very long.

So usability is the second most important thing. And the third is crafting beauty. Obviously, crafting beauty is not like a nice to have as is absolutely material to increasing the utility and usability of a product and also making IT far more enjoyable. But there's no reason to crafting something nicely if like you can't actually sit in, for example. And so if you use this kind of vice, a checklist as I look at this product is like, well, is if the first inform of solving a problem, if it's not, then you definitely should not let IT go forward because what's the point you're just adding cost IT to your maintenance later and then you know the next pieces come at all.

And IT seems like, you know whether you value and to what level, craft and beauty like it's there, whether you make the choice to invest in in or not, just sometimes it's not good.

Yeah, I understand. I think a big, big, big part of design we're talking about design is it's just intentionality, right? Is just like are you being thoughts about how this thing is going to be perceived or not? And if there's infinite options, why not choose the one that is most appealing and most easy to use? And know, just like Sparks a little joy, know we we create software for people to run their businesses.

And you know, I think a lot of enterprise software out there doesn't put that first informal, which is fascinating given that those are human beings that work at those companies, right? And like why not bring you know the the joy to the work for anybody? We do think about craft and beauty is definitely not a nice to have. It's it's a must have. And you know thinking about those details, making sure that there is no defects that somebody might start to question whether or not that the product is working overall um and you know bringing a little bit more .

to the utility. Yeah or founders maybe that don't consider themselves to have I for design or a design background or something like how can they know what great design looks like yeah .

I think part of IT is going back to that kind of like a checklist and thinking like knowing what to look for. Yeah, i'm a pilot. And one of the things my C. F. I taught me is that before you take off, you do, it's called the proof light.

And so you look at all of the aspects of the plane, you follow checklist to make sure that it's air worthy before you know you take off into the sky yeah and the the checklist is a really great way of making sure you ever miss a thing. But the other aspect that ah my see if I has taught me is that you should be looking at IT as if you know something is wrong with the plane, you're just trying to find that. And so that mindset is really helpful because IT really requires you to take a different posture of that like there's something here and i'm gonna and not going take IT for granted.

And when you do that, when you think through like let's say you're about to launch you an APP for ordering coffee online and you're kind of going through and you you yourself want as the founder, want to see if either the product is any good and you start questioning every word, every pixel you know can be an annoying for the team. But IT is important that you do because when you start to question that, you wonder like, oh yeah, it's a little weird that you know, when I hit this button, I end up here but I have no context of where I just came from um and like actually these words don't really communicate our brand and actually that's not really uh communicating what i'm supposed to do that. And so you start to think a little bit more about each of those details and and observe like how is that making you feel? How is that actually helping you along your way? And is IT or is IT and what of those gaps? And know that might not be taste, but IT is certainly a utility.

And I think that's like, obviously, again, a super important part. Developing taste, I think, is also know one of the harder things to develop, but you can certainly hold and you can improve IT. One of the ways, of course, is to observe and you see what do you like about the companies out there that you enjoy their products in, what seems to be working? What what are the details of that, that are really nice and just like taking no to that. And then of course, you going to hire well and you listen to your people observe and and that can certainly cultivate your taste too.

It's interesting when you talk about that checklist. You know I think one thing that um technical founders are really good at is like finding the edges cases and um you know finding all the ways that like the product they are, the code that they've written might fail and net work. And it's really interesting to think about actually just applying that to the design side of things and trying to find those education of the areas that IT will break might be like a good way for them to think about IT and to be able to level up their own design thinking and and paying attention to .

their own product. Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the hardest parts for any of us is stepping outside own view. You're working on this thing. It's your baby.

You think about IT and day IT is really hard to imagine you to just like a race that what you know from your brain and experience IT like somebody who doesn't see IT everyday. So obviously, we you can do a lot of the assessment yourself, but bringing users into IT is really, really important. And you know it's never once it's not like we just did that know.

We did use a research in the beginning. It's an ongoing and you know, work with the user here from them, have them talk out loud as they look at your product and recognize that they are Operating with a very different context in mind and a lot less know ledge about the problem and what do they see and and what does that make them feel like? What is their impression of who this brand is based on, you know, the colors of the weight laid out or how to interact and and is IT clear to them what what happens next and and .

how do I get there? Yeah, you talk about hiring. And I think one of the ways to get good at hiring is to see lots of candidates to to understand what good looks like. Um and IT sounds like what you're saying is that one of the ways to get Better at design is to see lots of good design, interact with IT and like see what good looks like and then that can help you level up. Are are there any other tips that you would have for people that are trying to level up their own design skills as a founder and yeah that they can bring to their company?

We can learn a lot from observation, pay attention that the products you don't like and why pay attention in the process you do like? Certainly, you i'd recognize sometimes it's a little chicken and egg. It's like we wanted get great designers, but without great design, they don't want to be here, you know.

So I think a big part of that too was getting out there in the community and also know if you're trying to hire great your team like help them understand what role they can have in the company. Um if you don't know how design works, don't presume to tell them how IT works. Think about how you can learn from their ideas.

Design often does work differently than perhaps an engineering discipline. And so that is something that you know, you as a founder can learn a little bit about by bringing folks on, and maybe even just an advisory role to hope you think about how you're gna hire or maybe even coach, maybe a junior designer that's on your team. Uh, and yes, I think just meeting people, learning from them and seeing their examples as A A really great way cultivating that taste.

Can you teach taste?

I think you can make IT Better. I I think you know to be honest with you in hiring, for example, I would certainly say that ah IT is easier to teach somebody the tools or the the domain and the the space that you work in. Then IT is to teach taes.

For example, if you see some is prefer, I like, but like we're in the vindex space in this person's worked in tech forever, but they don't. Example fy great taste. I think that's dangerous because I think that would be this are easy, but easy err, to help them learn your space, whether taste. I think it's also like a passion for IT.

You know, that also can be difficult to to teach because you know, is there mindset there, is that something that they like think about every day that they just want to make things more attractive, more actionable, more useful? Like you want that like deeply in that individual? If that's what mean a main job is in your company.

right? Let's talk about design. And your design process is straight. Tell little about the process and how that works.

I think first inform us is actually even thinking about how what organza we work together. Uh, we have a highly collaboration environment where uh, designers, engineers, product managers, they were kind in hand. So if you ask any designer on the team, what team or are you on the well, i'm on the connect team and i'm on the design team.

You're not like a service org. The people just kind of reach out to like an agency to get work done and then kind of go back to you yeah yeah.

for a number of reasons. So number one, know all those functions that I charged about earlier or all a part of the design or because on purpose, we want all those teams working well together because we want the user experience to feel coherence. So whether you see us on the billboard or the website and then into the product.

That should feel like one coherent story that's building on itself. Yeah so that's why role in one org. But of course, we don't want you know the designers to be just like popping in and out of projects and not having the context of the product, really the deep expertise and also enough the same goals in mind.

So they are embedded in the teams. They have the same shared goals as pms and engineers, and they are working only things together start to finish. And that makes a big, big difference in how the work gets done. And so in terms of process, you will not be surprised. But we, of course, always start with like who's the user and what does their need.

And that's where you know all of these you kind of ideas for new products and things come from is that we're often hearing from our users and they are very much like engage in in working with us advice for so. And so we potentially learn about a need for a product I just mentioned, connect. So this is our product for platform businesses and marketplaces.

And so IT allows them to create a situation, a relationship with other businesses so that they can help them grow, grow their own business and and even offer financial services. And so these organizations um that worked with us, one of them was lift for early days, for example. They know came upon this need.

They wanted to pay out drivers since they built the product with us. I couldn't talk about another product that i'm super excited to show you, which is called work similarly like we worked with flag and notion on, you know how to make that product Better every day. And so we are doing prototyping and iterating and and they are giving us feedback almost on a weekly basis.

And that really like tight feedback cycle and iteration of the product, really helps us kind of stay away from going down fault I Y assumptions and creating things that just won't work in real life in the spectrum of users that we serve. And and this is probably the case for most of the founders too. Like you know, there's not going be one type of user you know that they're gonna be interacted with.

And so take work with a range of users and have that into iteration cycle really helps to reveal things that you might otherwise never have thought about. And that really could persist straight on into the execution in the shipping. And then we keep learning and in iterating because one thing that I think you never see this to surprise us is that, you know, you could design this perfect little product and you get IT out into the world. And then what do you know like three months later, full of bugs and in the interaction points with your next new product aren't great. And so you really got a state dead fast into learning about your product and seeing also how IT continues.

And so we actually have this uh, part of our process and it's almost like a culture, uh, that of using the product to be walking the store exercises where people from you honest anywhere in the company, but especially you know in the product teams, you know engineer's, product managers, designers are trying the product like a user wood in the journey aspect, right? Not just that moment in time where the product shows up, but inking about IT from you. How do I learn about IT on an email? How do I and then I go in to the website, I oh, and then I go in to the product.

And how does that feel? And what are the moments where IT does that make sense? Because the day is shipped for the first time that may have been all perfect, but over time, like IT starts to in a potentially road with the creation of new things. So you got ta continue to a all.

But I think every founders have the experience of trying to nail the product, launching IT, focus on other things and then coming back and trying your product six month later and being like, oh my god.

what has happened here yeah I think it's kind of what t members have given this analogy. It's like when you are working on your house and you read at the dining room, so you added a nice new building and like little light plates and painted the walls. And now of a sudden, the dining room next to the kitchen looks horrific. And you know, you have to think about how you know you're continuing to push and pull different parts of your product and never lose sight of how IT fits across all of how often do you do that?

Walk the store with all your products.

I bet you someone is doing IT right now. IT is IT just it's a cultural norm. We have A A program where IT is like very organized and establish is called our essential journeys.

And so what we did was we identified what are the top seventeen most important user flows that many of our users go through your daily. And it's not a comprehensive list by any means, but we just needed something kind of digestible. And so there are seventeen and we have derived and teen members of that every quarter. They review that experience, they score IT.

The friction log gets that like kind of writing down your experience as you go and and noting where like, well, that felt weird and this is kind of fact like a check that a preflight thing that I mentioned of like using a checklist to like does this make sense or not? And noting that down scoring IT we keep IT on a score board. There's a little social pressure of like let's get these things to Green and are scoring mechanism.

It's nothing fancy. It's literally it's just like red, orange, yellow, yellow, Green and Green ah and we pay careful attention to IT as a company goal to get these things to Green and keep them at Green. And so as I mentioned, like regressions can happen.

So how do you stay steadfast on that? Improve IT quickly, get IT back out there. And so yeah, it's definitely happening a part of that program.

But I think what's super cool is when you know somebody from the sales team does a walk the store of the you know billing product and then sends the friction log to the billing team because those are those great moments of hearing what somebody thinks who's not living in a day after day. And I see that like, oh, that actually doesn't make as much sense. We thought for somebody who doesn't at the context.

I love that cultural norm of measuring these things and having effectively like leader boards and calling IT out publicly and making that visible to everybody, that's a really great way. Emphasis in the culture.

Yeah, absolutely. So we have several examples that i'd love to show you.

And yeah, love check IT out. yeah.

So uh, one of the things that I think actually came out of the walk, the store exercise that we do is that you get to experience the product for ten and you really get to feel like like a prototype might not always show you how is that going to show up in a real world. So using IT real world, this is very helpful.

And the other thing I didn't mention is that we have a bugs at email alias that anybody can send above in the company outside the company. Because of that, we can hear from various people in the company that have tried the product and seen an issue. And it's like if you see something, say something which is super.

Hello, yes. So one of the things that came out of that was that we have this product called blink, which is our extremely fast way of checking out online. But what we also provide with IT is a way to buy crypto quickly.

And so in this website here, so nice cc tool where you can quickly buy crypto. And what we found is that when you then proceed and somebody types in their email address, uh, what was happening? Tell you what the problem because it's gone now. So keep, but you type in your email address and before you would stop typing an email address, there would be a an .

alert that IT wasn't and that i'm sure .

you know maybe in the fig ma file was like, great, we're going to do this and it's can be fine. But what you're you like actually is different when you feel IT is just like that's really annoyed you're yelling at the person before they even finished. And so what we did was just know we saw that issue that was a bug field.

And so now as I I typed IT in IT doesn't get at me. And with cool is even then I had a space, right? The space is not needed, but it's just like a natural thing, a human does.

That is not on purpose. It's not yelling at me. Yes, now I will yell at me if I give you a second.

So now IT leurs me when it's appropriate, right? Like a little bit delayed. You and my icd that matters and and super like that was failed. Kicking her off. yeah. Another example that I think is gna be useful as a point of how much design can really impact the bottom line is a this great one about a bitten email. So we had this one email that was trying to communicate to a user what to do with the product after they have signed up. And as you could see is just like there's not a lot of hierarchy, it's not a real clear called the action what to do if you read IT, you know the words just like not super clear text.

Yes, exactly. That's just like what is .

the role of that or something else. So we redesigned and we thought about the words, of course, we thought about what happens after you hit this button, button clearly communicating what to happens. We certainly added more higher key, a little bit more visual interest, which also communicates Better. And doing that increased product conversion by twenty percent from the email, which is pretty huge.

And I can see why there's a clear call to action. There's a headline that you know, I can't read the sub paragraph there. I can read that headline from here, and I immediately gets my attention.

Yes, yes, okay. So let's talk some product stuff. So, so thrilled about this product that we launched this year that is called workbench.

And so we were hearing from the developers about the you know some of the chAllenges they have with working with the integrations and continuing to maintain and grow, one of which was essentially breaking their flow state. So they would be working in you, the stripe dashboard, and they would be going back to their code editor. And not a lot of switching of, uh, new context switching.

We're going to the dark s and contact switch, lot of tax acedera. And we had we've had a developer area, but that was kind of getting like a little two g impact in a small space. And so we wanted to create a tool that would make IT a lot more powerful.

And easier for developers to use and stay in their flow state. And so with work bench, um IT comes in here at the bottom the product and you can see you can pull that up. You can change the how much of IT IT takes over the screen and what IT provides you is basically it's both like microscope in a telescope yeah of what's going on with your integration.

And so you can debug IT, you can prototype bit, you can make changes and all of that stuff is right there for you. So I can give you an example. So let's minimize this for a second.

And so let's say i'm in the dashboard and maybe somebody in the company let me know that a user called and the invoice didn't work out. And so I ve got to debug IT what why didn't IT? Why didn't take get charged?

So we come over here, we go into invoices and I take a look and it's I cooky here's the user. What what happened here? What were the issues? And so you see here in work bench is offering this little information to inspect.

I could also see whether or not there were errors related to IT, but that looks like not right now. But I can click on the inspector. I can come in here now. I can see the background of what is involved in this invoice, which is also helping my mental model of how the apis constructed, which then kind of fuels the developers ability to go further with IT and filled potentially in new innovations in top of that.

And so let's say, okay, when I learn about the customer, what's going on with them, what happened in the event, and I can go right into the a explore to if I need to understand what's happening in the and make changes. And so this is almost like a little coach for you to be able to see how this IT works, what's behind all of these various parameters. And you know, what you would Normally be doing today would be going to dogs also reading about IT.

And just like, again, context, which so the information is now here I can make, okay, that's what's wrong. It's their email is wrong. So i'm gonna get back to that error.

Let's do that. Let's he is updating with get the code snip IT. So I can just bring that into my editor. It's right there in my language, which I could switch out.

And now if I go back to that spot there and see this user is already updated right into the dash word. So it's really kind of like lowering that hurdle between the dashboard experience and, you know, you're editor and really being able to bring the power, the C, L. I, right into the dash word. We ve gotten great feedback. And this is the example I would told you about where we were working directly with notion and slack and iterating yeah in real time and hearing from them how to make .

that Better yeah this is great. I don't know that i've ever seen something like this before. Um and IT seems like you came up with this from some first principles thinking it's a web inspector but specific to stripe. And for all the tools that you would need to manage and improve um all of your strike integrations, that's super cal.

It's really cool. Thank you for saying that. I think the team crushed ed IT on this one and know one of the other things that I love about this.

So check this out. So part of this like process of working with users on IT was that we created, uh, this form this community called the insiders. And so we can continues to hear from developers about their experiences that and learn from IT. And so even recently, the designer on this work back in may posted about IT and is a here we did this what you think and you get the commentary right on, its like actually isn't working and like this is really great and you no matter of what size the company is, that dollar touch with users so critical, actually make a product for users.

I think one of things that I take away from this conversation is how deeply integrated the entire company is with your users. And you've got founders talking to users and sharing that with everybody. Everybody's enclosed to be a user of the product and report feedback and things that they learn on a regular basis.

And uh, you've got forums like this that uh, help you connect really closely with your users. And I I think that probably clearly explains why strike build such great well design products. And so, you know, kudos to you for leading a lot of that.

And the other thing that stands out to me is pride is very clear that you and the founders and everybody that works at strike takes a lot of pride in the products that you put out. And I think that, that shows and you hold that high bar for yourself. And I think that's a lesson that all founders can take away, the level of pride and the level of detail that you go to, to make something incredibly great fit user or so i've learned a lot about that today.

So thank you. Well, that is all very, very nice to say I appreciate that. And ah honestly, I do think like the goals and brothers did such a fantastic job and stealing that in the culture, IT does move the middle.

Design certainly does make a business sense, but even if they didn't, they would still do IT. And I think that's that except or or that's the thing that's going to make you hard decisions along the way possible. Yes.

and certainly awesome. Well, thank you so much for for having .

yeah of course, thanks for having me.