From a Bathroom Epiphany to Twitter: The Rise of ParametricArchitecture
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Welcome to today's episode of Lexicon. I'm Christopher McRudden, contributing writer for Interesting Engineering. In today's episode, we are joined by Hamid Hassan Zabih, the visionary founder of Parametric Architecture. Join us as we dive into the inspiring journey of PA from a humble idea born in a bathroom to the global platform it is today. But before getting into today's episode, make sure to check out our latest merch at Interesting Engineering Shop.

engineer your style with our t-shirts mugs and discover new products now let's continue with today's episode hamid thanks for joining us how are you today well good thank you so much i'm feeling great how about you very well thank you thanks for joining us thank you so much thanks for the invitation our pleasure of course for our audience's benefit can you tell us a little bit about yourself please

So my name is Hamid Hazanzadeh. I'm an Iranian architect. I studied architecture in Iran and I've been living in Istanbul, Turkey for the last 10 years. I'm mostly focused on the technology and architecture and I run the platform called Parametric Architecture. Fantastic. Thank you. So it's exciting a bit more. Yeah. Yeah.

I can go deeper. Not a problem. Yeah. So can you tell us a little bit about the inspiration behind founding parametric architecture as it 2016, I believe. What gap in the industry were you trying to fill?

Yeah, it goes back to a couple of years ahead, like 2014, 2015, when I was trying to learn these softwares called parametric softwares, where basically Rhino Grasshopper and how to try to implement the visual scripting into architectural design workflows. So that's how I got into the parametric design world and

Then I started experimenting. Then I started using these tools in my own design workflows and day-to-day architecture projects. And somewhere around 2016, as I had the hype and interest in social media as well, I decided to open or establish, start a page on Instagram called Parametric Architecture. And...

just to upload my own works and my own visuals that I was doing, basic ideas of exploring the possibilities of using these complex design tools. And I started the page in March 2016, and I was right

And inside the office, I was working as an architect and I was sitting in the toilet one day and I said, hey, it would be nice to start this page called Parametric Architecture. And I just signed out from my own account, signed in as a registered on Instagram as a new account. Parametric Architecture username was gotten before that.

And I just added a dot in between parametric dot architecture. That's how parametric architecture was born in a toilet. And then I come back to my desk and the office. I make a logo P and A on Photoshop. I just uploaded a couple of people follows based on just the name and the logo. Then I upload my own works on Instagram. A couple of more people followed. And I had a lot

I had a video published on my own account, which was a parametric facade where all the facade elements were interacting with the audience that was behind them or next to them. It was opening and closing. It was interactive facade. And I uploaded this one on Instagram and just, uh,

one hour it got 2000 views and I had just 20 followers can you imagine that and a couple of famous pages and famous architects put a like on the video as well and it just gave me a kind of

push and excitement to continue what I am doing and I continued publishing one work every week until I received 10,000 followers just by doing this in seven months. So after seven months I

I said, hey, maybe it's better that I share other designers' works as well. Not to be selfish, but as I'm learning all these tools, I'm working on the projects, I can share more information about how these tools work. So I started blogging on Instagram. Not like an influencer kind of blogging, but like blogging other people's works and adding a comment about the projects.

So as I started sharing other people's works, I get to know more architects, more designs, more... My eyes opened widely to the world and the page got growth, 20,000, 30K, 40K, 50K, 100K followers. And I was just earning nothing out of this platform. So I kept doing it until...

2020 and it was all side hustle, side work and not even earning any money, any penny out of it. So after 2020 and with the start of pandemic, I said maybe it's better to use this opportunity of growing online interactions on the internet

I can use that and turn this into a business because the page already had 500,000 followers. I started a website. I started Twitter, LinkedIn, all those channels simultaneously. And the

After doing this, I invited so many architects on Instagram to come and speak with us about the emergence of these tools in architecture. Very famous architects, legendary architects where they have books written and all their methodologies are being instructed in universities.

So I was the first person to bring these kind of people on a live Instagram mode.

And it was a really great hub and our followers just skyrocketed and my fame also skyrocketed. People just started following my personal accounts as well. And next to it, I started also online events where our main focus was teaching these new softwares like workshops, conferences, and

And we kept doing it until right now that we are almost like 12 people and a small team focusing on providing information and knowledge about these emerging tools in architecture. Fantastic. I wonder how many great ideas have died on the toilet. Yes, exactly. That's where you think, actually.

Indeed. So you've mentioned parametric design. For those of our audience who aren't familiar with the term, can you kind of explain what that is, if possible? Yeah.

Parametric design basically comes from the words parametric and plus design. Parametric is a term in mathematics, which is also used a lot in the coding. So the basic idea behind parametric design is using algorithms, relationships, codings, and all sorts of visual systems

scripting methods to calculate a form, a space, a design. And the emergence of this into architecture started somewhere around the 90s, where we started using softwares in architecture.

But it was not quite practical until 2007 when Grasshopper 3D software was launched.

because it enabled architects to directly use visual scripting before they were using scripting but it was not quite practical to do it on Python and because architects are soft people and they don't like those engineering stuff to use in design but after the creation of Grasshopper as a plugin to Rhino they opened the floodgates of possibilities into architecture so

The term parametric design, of course, has its origins back in history, even from centuries ago, 1850s, or in the works of Antoni Gaudi, in the works of

architects like Frey Otto, architects like Luigi Moretti. Actually, Luigi Moretti is the Italian architect who coined the term parametric architecture in 1967 in an exhibition.

But it was all with analog methods of using computational design and using material computing to design something. So initially what those guys did back

back then without the emergence of without using computers they used materials, models, they used relations and formulas on the paper to calculate and design structures. That's how they use these methods but of course after the emergence of computers, the rise of computers,

Using the algorithms, people like Pierre Bazier, who's an automotive engineer working in Reynolds, or people like Samuel Gaisbel or Evan Sutherland. These folks worked a lot on bringing software, design software into computer environment.

So this was a little bit about its history, where it started. But after the rise of computers in the 90s, we saw the use of computer software a lot in architecture. And it was not quite practical to sit and code for just a building that is like the shape of a box.

Architects like Frank Gehry used tons of different softwares to design their buildings, like softwares like Catia or

They used to design their software. One of the great iconic buildings that Frank Gehry designed is Fish Barcelona installation and also Museum of Bilbao, which they used sophisticated algorithms to design these three-dimensional surfaces, which was not quite possible to imagine, let alone design and build them. But they would project

but with using software like CATIA, it was quite possible and practical to model them in a 3D environment and then try to decode them and how to build them. This continued until, as I said before, until the emergence of a tool called Explicit History, which later on renamed as Grasshopper 3D.

And visual scripting from that point entered architecture, and architects started using lots of

optimizations, analytics, data-driven design into architectural projects. And with that, we see many buildings that are designed these days, like all those crazy curvatures or highly complicated, complex structure that you see, they are the result of using these sophisticated design tools.

So parametric design relies on these kind of tools and the term parametric architecture is

by the word parametric design, actually. And the reason I choose this name as the name of our Instagram and also the name of our company because I liked parametric architecture. I liked the using of these tools into design processes because they make you to become more faster to design more optimized models. You can iterate, you

your designs with just changing one parameter, you can generate thousands of iterations and

The important thing is the parameters that you're using in designing anything, you have them with yourself until the end of design. If you change anything simultaneously, if you change any parameter, it just changes the entire design simultaneously on your screen. So this is like for engineers who use codings or these kind of algorithms,

it's quite obvious that, yes, this is a good tool. But for architects, it was not quite easy to accept this idea. Or even myself, when I discovered these kind of tools, I was, oh, I was in shock. Is this really possible to do in architecture? If I can collect my parameters and change them, so at the end of the design, I can go back and change them again. I can go back and change them again. I

I can have the entire history of my workflow in one sheet and I can go back and go forward to do all sorts of editings. And it led a lot of architects to use these kinds of tools to optimize their workflows. And we see its effects into architecture these days. And even those normal architecture buildings that you see are building around.

They are using these highly complicated algorithms to calculate huge amounts of data in their projects. So that's basically what parametric design and parametric architecture is. Fantastic. So these softwares presumably integrate kind of building physics into them as well, I'm guessing. Is that right? Yeah.

There's an ongoing problem in there with architect, well, from my old days, between architects and actual engineers. The architect who could design a fantastic looking building, then the engineer is going to make it work. Now, that's being dealt with at the design level.

must make the user happy. I presume. Definitely, definitely. This made this gap between architects and designers quite smaller because now architects are able to speak with the language of engineers. Even not maybe fully in the same language, but they are able to optimize their model. Structure-wise, they can

optimize their model and according to the needs of engineers they can change it quite faster they can adapt it to the new new paradigms that the engineers want the new methods that engineers want so that gap is now getting much smaller and smaller so because the language is becoming more common and the

the design environment is becoming more collaborative. Architects and engineers can work on the same file simultaneously. They can brainstorm together. Not only engineers, mechanical engineers, electrical engineers. So the whole MEP industry can collect inside one file and they can brainstorm each other. If an architect changes anything,

Electrical engineer will know it. Structural engineer will know it. So this communication became more crucial in those workflows.

Oh, that's fantastic. That's really good. So you can zoom in, zoom out, cut it. Absolutely, absolutely. Wow. This led to the creation of building information modeling where the data, yes, data is extremely important to communicate with other disciplines that are connected to build that platform or to build that building. So building information modeling or...

shorten it like a PIM, uses several number of softwares like Revit, like Rhino. For Revit, there's a plugin called Dynawa, which does a lot of things. And you can now store all the information of the building inside three-dimensional softwares. And you can communicate these information to other softwares in other languages. You can convert them. You can create data trees

to calculate, to optimize the models. So the architectural process now, it's not just only creating three-dimensional model, but also the information of that three-dimensional model or

how much this material accepts the heat, or what is the endurance of this material in terms of the cold weather or the pressure, all sorts of information you can now create them or store them inside that 3D model, and you can calculate based on them. You can make decisions based on those information.

Well, that's great. Presumably then you can run experiments on it. I don't know. You could upgrade the windows or insulation or something. Absolutely. Nowadays, the term called digital twin is becoming more important in architecture because creating that digital twin of the building before it gets built is as important as creating or

or building that building itself. Because you can monitor the entire lifecycle of the building through digital platforms. You can see if the number of people who are using that building is increased. So there are safety measurements that you have to take

do, or there are energy consumption measurements you have to do because you're monitoring simultaneously and all these information are connected to these softwares which gives you the real-time analysis and the

data for you to decide what you want to do actually. So all these sorts of information now are connected in digital platforms where architects together with other people, other disciplines can monitor this information. And based on

those information. They can go and build a building. They can see the whole process. They can see how many workers, contractors are involved inside those constructions. And

move ahead or if they want to make any decision or any edits or any changes on the design, they can make first on the file, on the digital twin, then move ahead with the real construction. Sounds like we've almost made quantity surveyors obsolete with this.

Yes, yes. It goes deeply with the bringing of numbers, quantitative methods into architecture. Because architecture before was always based on beauty, art, sculpting, which was out of measurement. So a building that is beautiful for you is...

maybe not seem beautiful for another person. We still have that in architecture. I think it's a good thing that we measure beautiful on different methods. And beauty doesn't have measurements. Except that we can measure other things. The beauty comes out of architects' own understanding of what makes this beautiful building. What makes this building beautiful? They decide on it, okay? They go through the process and decide

They use a lot of data to choose which building is beautiful. But other than that, all the things that you see on the building, to build and design them, they can use data, they can use calculations, they can use relationships to create highly efficient buildings.

Absolutely. With the beauty side of things, it's kind of a personal bugbear of mine. A lot of the UK, as you know, was ruined during the World War and a lot of the buildings that replaced our old beautiful buildings are hideous. Especially brutalist. I hate brutalism. Yes. This kind of model, there's no reason you couldn't show the public loads of models, example models, and let them decide by a jury, if you like, on the beauty.

Yes, definitely. And you can just set principles of beauty on your design and based on that you can just create hundreds of iterations of design methods. And they could all look beautiful but it's up to you to choose which one is more beautiful and more suitable to the context. So the context is very important for architectural design process as well.

Absolutely. Another thing, probably a little bit off topic, you mentioned about the life cycle of the building. So presumably it could be used for planning demolition as well at the end. Definitely. But if that wasn't secure, could that not be used by terrorist organizations or somebody else, nefarious person to find the weakness in the building and destroy it using the plans?

Yes, that's correct. That goes to the cybersecurity and the security of the files and data that should not be shared with anyone. But of course, before we had 2D plans where it could be just copied and pasted to hundreds of people. But now we can create a file which is highly secure and we can see who has accessed a file successfully

when, where, with which IP, so you can give priorities to all these files, you can give different type of accesses people can have. I totally agree with you that these files are sensitive and should not be shared with third parties maybe or people who are out of the organizations, but

Imagine building a website where you have your credit cards inside, where you have all sorts of information inside and you don't want to share them with any other people. But with cybersecurity measurements, this just happens actually. And with those kind of measurements and working with engineers, software engineers, I think that's quite possible to achieve it.

Okay, excellent. Anyway. Yeah, no, I totally agree with you. Yeah, on a fleet tangent there. Anyway, so back to your company. So you mentioned your educational platform is a PA Academy. Is that right? That's correct. So yeah, it focuses on teaching cutting edge tools like Rhino, Grasshopper, which you've mentioned, and other AI-based technologies. How do you see these tools reshaping the future of design? We've kind of mentioned it, but.

Yes. Parametric design computational tools completely changed the face of architecture. We can call it like a paradigm shift back in the 80s, 90s when it started. There was a paradigm shift that happened while these tools emerged with architecture because they completely rebuilt the architecture

design process and design workflows. Architects before used to do notations or drawings on the... Just giving a reference to one of professors at Bartlett University, Mario Carpo, who is also author of a couple of books, Digital Turn to...

the architects used always to draw on papers,

and then give these papers to builders so they can build the projects. But that started to change in the last century by the use of these computational tools because architect itself got into the role of building the architecture, building the building itself. So that gap between the builder and architect just started to get smaller and smaller. And right now in architecture,

We need architects who know how to use a robot. We need architects who know how to use 3D printing. Or we need architects who can understand what Python is so they can write completely new codes on Python so we can use them in our visual scripting. We need architects who know about material engineering. This is a highly important topic as well, material engineering, because we need architects

new kind of materials to create a sustainable future. And we can see all these people, people like Philip Block, Block Research Group in ETH Zurich. We can see all sort of these 3D printing guys who are experimenting constantly

great materials to print housing projects. You know, we have housing shortage and we have to build many houses, but with the technologies like 3D printing, we can faster this process. Yes, it's hard to code or plan or prepare a 3D printing facility, but

But when it's done, it can create quite faster projects. Or with the prefabricated tools, with the prefabricated technologies, we can use to design and build much faster, much sustainable. We can use wood, we can use concrete. And these just allow us to...

think the ways we can make an impact into architecture profession because after the fashion industry, architecture is almost like a second industry or the first industry if I'm wrong or right.

that pollutes the environment. So if with the use of advanced computational tools, we are able to reduce the use of concrete in our building, we are contributing to sustainability. Because concrete itself maybe is not harmful, but extraction and the methods of building concrete is quite harmful for the environment. So with the use of computational tools, we're

advanced geometries, creating the kind of geometries that reduce the use of concrete, we are contributing to sustainability. So these kind of tools allow us to

do multiple methods and explore different options in our design workflows. Okay. Again, going off topic again, do you perceive a future where like 3D printers, multi-material 3D printers could do the same for a building? So the concrete for the walls, maybe actually print the glass windows as it goes in,

timber features, you mentioned timber, wood, can't think of anything else, other materials, all in one go. That could possibly happen in the next 10 years, probably, because the technology is moving so fast. In the last five years, there was huge advancements, huge developments in different kind of building methods regarding AI as well.

I see a good future for 3D printing in construction. It's slow these days. It's quite expensive as well. If you want to just create one project,

one house, one project. But if you want to create the same type of project with different customized models of building, you can do thousands of them in short amounts of time, which normal construction methods can't reach to that level. And it can reduce the time of these constructions to 30% or 40% actually. And

Printing like a glass or wood, I think there are some experimentations done. I saw a couple of people at the Frankfurt...

At the exhibition forum next that I went last month, I saw so many great startups working on wood printing or different sorts of metal printing, different sorts of materials to be used in construction as well. But they're not like...

Right now, they can't be used probably in larger scale in architecture or construction methods. But there's a good future for that. Like if we start developing these technologies from now, maybe we can use in 10 years or 15 years. And we need to do this because we can build, we want to build on other planets as well, on dangerous planets.

environments and without having proper printing construction methods we can't do this so we can send the robots to build shelters for humans on other planets and before they arrive their shelters are ready and already radiation proved approved and so they can live inside those bunkers but uh i

I can accept that the process is quite slow. First, we need to do lots of experimentations on our own planet until the product becomes quite usable and trustable. And

Construction industry is so conservative industry and that's the level where the technology comes very last to these industries, architecture and construction. I can understand that because it's playing with the human safety and all sorts of details that it should be quite well thought of.

And all these technologies that we have didn't happen overnight. It took thousands of years until we got adapted to these building technologies. It will take some time until we have all sorts of printing processes and construction as well. Yeah, that sort of brings me on to my next question. Presumably there'll be ways we can mix materials, composites in ways we've never thought of before.

in the future. So with the advancements in things like AI, especially AI and computational design, what are some of the most exciting projects and trends you're seeing emerge generally in architecture? Yes, architects were quite hyped about AI for a long time.

But this changed since 2022 with the launch of DALL-E and Mid-Journey, the tools like these, which allowed architects to visualize their thoughts, their thinkings through the words they can type. So prompt typing was the first generation of AI tools, almost first generation. Before we had AI tools like for optimizations, for analysis, but they are small applications

or let's say narrow AIs that could be used. But the image generation just gave architects a huge excitement. And right now, any architect who wants to design a building, they just brainstorm and sketch through AI.

But before, we were just doing sketches, checking Pinterest, or brainstorming with a couple of architects, inspiring from sites. But right now, they're opening these AI softwares, and they just brainstorm. Even if it's not a buildable project, they just brainstorm with people.

these AI tools. But image generation is one process out of thousands of process that happens in architecture. That's just one small single process. So just to create a beautiful building or just to answer to things you need verbally, you can type them and you can get a visual images. Architecture is not image generation. Architecture is not visualizing.

working on 3D modeling softwares. Architecture is not engineering, it's not art, it's not a building, it's not anything that you see, it's not materials. Architecture is the combination of all these sort of terms that you can imagine. An architect needs to know about the context of building, the relationship of that building with its surroundings, which

is quite crucial for these processes. Architecture is a design process. Architecture is understanding materials. Architecture is understanding structure, knowing structure, how to work in a team and come up with ideas to solve the solutions for problems. So

That image generation process is 1% of architecture probably. More things that we need to have in architecture is in the data-driven design process and documentation. So these are extremely important. I see now softwares that are being developed like LukeX, like Finch 3D. These are just great examples of these kind of softwares that...

use data, they are AI models, they use data to give you documentation, to give you the details, to optimize your model. So these are data-driven agents where architects can use. So moreover, if we shifted, if you wanted to fast forward five years, ten years,

I think if we can create systems that all these data creates a good architecture, but also they can give you an estimation of the cost of the building with all sorts of back-end force that you can communicate with the system. It can at least give you an estimation of the cost of the building itself as well. So I think

Until that point, we will keep exploring using different AI models, AI tools, chatbots, prompts to implement them in our design workflows and design processes. Interesting. I mean, with...

ai uh art generators um i mean presumably it would could give you an idea of uh what the public perceive as beautiful for a building right because it gives you an average composite with your direction to what a beautiful building looks like in the mind's eye of of the people um presumably that would be helpful for architects to give them like some kind of inspirational direction in one if that's what they're aiming for

Yeah, definitely. The tools like MidGerry are helping a lot in that sense because it gives them not even maybe the whole image as well, but a part of the image. Hey, what I can do for here? Can you give me 10 options? They can type different things and they can explore different options. But this shouldn't be limited to...

just on the image process. By the way, we're teaching all sorts of architecture softwares. And for example, tools like MidJourney is a tool we taught a lot extensively in our platforms through different people. But tools like County UI that these days are emerging into architecture processes are quite exciting because they...

they emerge the parametric design with AI. You can have more control of your design through these node-based methods that existed already in Grasshopper before. So tools like ConfUI are extremely useful

important in design processes. But again, it gives you image out of whatever you use as an input. Image Journey was kind of just typing prompts. You can control through the words and a couple of parameters that they give you. But ConfuI gives you an extensive amount of parameters where you can take full control of your design process.

But using AI. I'm wondering if it's going to lead to some new... What's the term? Not genre. Kind of fat new of building design. Parametric intelligence. Yeah. Well, wonder what we'll get in 10 years, building designs. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Anyway, again, we've gone off topic. So...

You mentioned PA Talks, which is a podcast, presumably, which features conversations from renowned designers and innovators and architects, which you mentioned. Could you share a memorable episode or insight from a guest that particularly inspired you?

Yeah, of course. I started the first PA Talks in 2018 and the whole goal was to bring architects where they can share their experiences and their career advices or challenges that they faced. And it was quite great because

Architects are not quite talkative people as well. And it's not also considered as highly fancy, let's say, profession these days compared to topics like AI, software engineers, app developers, like financial, fintech, edtech, or these kind of things.

So I would love to give them a shout out to the great works that they did. So I started PA Talks because of that. And somewhere in 2020 with the pandemic, as I mentioned before, I started inviting so many great architects.

like Peter Eisenman, like Patrick Schumacher, like Ken Gokuma, Maya Song in our platform. And one of the most memorable of them was Peter Eisenman, who's a 90-year-old architect or maybe more than that.

And he used Instagram to join this live session. He was one of my heroes back in school because I was like a role architect that I was following his design methods.

And so I studied a lot of his work back in school. And when I invited him into the podcast and he agreed to join, I was super excited. And that was one of my highest viewed architecture talk, like PA talks, that I got on Instagram with almost like a thousand people watching live on Instagram. And it was...

It kept crashing a couple of times as well, but we did a good podcast with him. So that was one of the great moments where I realized

I had so much excitement of doing this podcast and I learned a lot from doing these podcasts. I learned a lot by talking to like-minded people, how they are using these softwares, what do they think about the future of architecture, how they use it in the future and how they see the future of the profession where it's headed.

Yeah, Peter Eisenman, people like Patrick Schumacher, people like Kengo Kuma, architects like Maya Song are the trailblazers and the pioneers of using these tools. And yeah, I appreciate them a lot. And I'm so excited and so honored that we had them in our talk session.

Superb. I'm sure they enjoyed it too. Yeah. So looking ahead, what's next for parametric architecture? Are there any upcoming initiatives, collaborations, or expansions you're particularly excited about?

Yeah, of course. Since we started PA Academy in 2022 as well, we want to grow this platform beyond its limits. So back in 2014-15, I wanted to learn all these tools with a highly...

great people, people who were experts and pioneers in this field. But unfortunately, I didn't have access to those kind of people. I

I didn't want to go and study master's degree in famous universities and pay $50,000, $60,000 a year just to study from these people. So I always had that in mind. It would be very good I can learn from these people. Yeah.

But also the platforms like Udemy or similar platforms, you know the education quality in platforms like Udemy. And they're not quite well polished, well thought education platforms. So I try to invite these people and make them accessible by public so architects can learn from them.

They joined, they taught their workflows, how they are using these tools. So we are on the verge of democratizing this kind of knowledge, which is computational design, the use of AI, using advanced design tools, parametric design. We're democratizing this knowledge with everyone on the planet. So we started very small, but we're going quite big and we want to grow more

beyond the limits. We want to make this

access, quiet, accessible as well. We want to lower the prices. We want to do more workshops, more events so architects can easily adapt to this new technology. AI is moving so fast, but we are quite moving very, very slow. Even now with the emergence of AI, not even 99.99% they know about AI in architecture.

So even 99% of buildings are designed by non-architects mostly. If you just go and calculate, except the signature, the design comes from maybe by non-architects. So that number could be different, like 96%, 97% on some regions. But we want to make these tools accessible by everyone so they can become more efficient. They can become...

They can design more sustainable projects. They can optimize their models. And at the end of the day, we can have a good built environment. That's what we value. And architecture has a lot of work to be done outside the design.

the design process is just 1% of architecture. The rest of it is normal documentation on AutoCAD or working with electrical engineers to implement those kind of drawings, printing, talking to engineers. So all these sorts of processes are becoming quite boring for architects. So with the emergence of these tools, these processes can be highly efficient. So

And entertaining as well. And

These days every architect needs to update their knowledge every three, four years. So we're providing these platforms, Parametric Architecture and PI Academy, with the resources that they need to upgrade their knowledge. And what we look forward to is to make all these knowledges more accessible to reach more architects. We're working with universities, working with the companies to make it more accessible.

Superb. Excellent. If it leads to more beautiful buildings, you have my full support. Of course. Basically out of time. Is there anything else you'd like to add before we wrap up? No, I think generally what I like to mention is architecture is a really tough profession.

As easy as it seems, it's not easy. And most of the times, architects are not funded to do their projects. They do the project, then they get funded. So that's the hard part for them to sustain their office, to sustain their company as well. And because of the beauty measurements, sometimes they lose the projects, they fail.

end up not getting the projects. So, and the labor work for architects are quite low as well. I hope these all will change in the future. We can see more better work environments for architects, more better projects

conditions for architects and with the educations that we provide as well, I hope they can become more efficient in their design workflows. Fantastic. Well, with that then, Ahmed, thank you for your time. That was very interesting.

Thank you. Thanks for having me and thanks for this great podcast that you're doing. I hope the people who will listen will enjoy it. Thank you. Thank you very much. That concludes this episode of Lexicon. Thank you all for tuning in and being our guest today. Follow our social media channels for the latest science and technology news. Also, don't forget to explore our IE shop. Goodbye for now.