Does Dublin need City Wardens?
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The Hard Shoulder with Kieran Cudahy. With the MG Hybrid and Electric range. On Newstalk.

Now, lots of people have been in and out of Dublin City the last few weeks, but does Dublin City need city wardens? And what exactly would they do? Well, my next guest thinks that they would be a benefit to the city. And joining me now is Kevin Byrne, who's a candidate for the Trinity-Shannad election. He joins me on the programme. Kevin, good afternoon and welcome to Newstalk. Hi, Adrian. How are you? Good, thanks. So...

Tell me how this whole idea for having city wardens has come about and what exactly they are and would do. So it's quite common in other European cities to have a kind of official presence that is a softer type of surveillance on the streets. So these are often called wardens. In the UK, for example, there's hundreds of schemes like this of various scales. So a bit of duties like patrolling or public reassurance, trying

trying to reduce antisocial behaviour and improving the urban environment. And so in Ireland, we've limited experience with things like litter wardens and traffic wardens. The idea of a city warden would be looking at these models in other jurisdictions to have a warden programme on the city to be an official presence. And there would be a support to policing and a reassurance to citizens in the city. But importantly, they wouldn't be police. They wouldn't be Gardaí.

No. So they'd be employed by DCC and they'd be given the power to enforce the city council's bylaws. So the local rules that regulate conduct in the city. So that covers things like litter and dogs and parking and so on. But the main thing is to be a reassuring presence on the streets. So the idea would be they'd be in blue high-vis jackets, they have body cameras on them. And I think one of the things a lot of people have said in Dublin since the end of the lockdowns

is the lack of an official presence when they're present in the city. And if you go to other EU capitals, there's a sense that there's a much higher level of official presence on the streets. So these would be a softer type of presence on the streets, but as a way to give reassurance to people. And while not being police officers, by being eyes and ears on the street, it's a support to policing the city.

OK, but surely the solution to, and I do accept that there has been a lot of negative sentiment towards Dublin from the time of the lockdowns and ever since, people not feeling as safe as they would have in the past in Dublin. I can say that for myself. I feel that way walking the streets myself, not as safe as I used to. But surely the answer to this is a heavier and a higher guard presence.

Yes, that's part of the solution too. So this idea, I led a community group that met the Taoiseach's Dublin Task Force over the summer and we made this proposal to the city wardens in that and they accepted it as one of their 10 big moves. But that report also looked for 1,000 more Gardaí on the streets. So we do need to police the city at the level of other U capitals and we're about 1,000 under where we should be for that. So this idea of wardens isn't going to solve all Dublin's problems on its own. That report has got 10 other proposals that need to be looked at as well.

But it is something that will quickly be able to put an official presence on the streets that would offer reassurance to people. Sorry, as I said, since the lockdowns, there has been a negative sentiment. It might have improved in recent months towards Dublin city centre.

But you believe that these wardens will give a softer presence on the streets, but be easily identifiable. But their job would be what? Are they going to be litter, dog and traffic wardens all rolled into one person?

Well, that would be part of it. And I think in other jurisdictions, one of the roles warden plays is that they report to other bodies in the city council if things like litter or dumping need to be resolved, that it's a way to keep the public realm up to scratch and keep it safe and clean.

So that's one role it could play. But one thing listeners might think about, say, walking home late at night and there's that sense that there isn't an official presence on the street, you would then have, you know, if you look down the road, you see the two wardens walking around in the blue jackets. That's a reassurance that there is an official presence there. And part of how they can support policing, that kind of role, is that while they're not police officers, if police need to be called in, these are official, accountable people

who are in a position to knowledgefully contact the Gardaí and try and bring them into a more serious case. But it's public reassurance is the main thing. You mentioned the negative sentiment. And that's, you know, I live in the city and I've run residence groups in the city. That's been a big problem for Dublin system. We need to shift that. So positive interventions like this is one way to do that.

And it's important for the entirety of Ireland, you know, investment decisions about Ireland, tourism referrals about Ireland. A lot of that is decided on how the capital is perceived internationally. So it's important that we shift the dynamic about the city. And this is something that came out of the task force. The programme for government talks are going on at the moment. And I think this is a very practical way we

we could shift the perceptions about the city. And so I think it's timely to raise it now and basically say the decision needs to be made. This is something that's been talked about. It's got merit. It can be done quickly. The time has come to make a decision to do it.

We were talking about Garda presence and a number of our listeners have been in contact with us saying the solution to this is not more bureaucracy. We just need more police. Now, I've been leaving the studios of Newstalk every night for the last week after seven o'clock in the evening and walked a fair bit around the city. All week, I didn't see one Garda. Not one single Garda have I seen in the last week on the streets. That is a huge problem.

It is, yeah. And so this is why I say this is a way to increase that presence on the street to offer reassurance. What you say there is a very common

commonly heard amongst people who live in the city, work in the city or socialise in the city that they can spend their whole evening in the city or their whole day in the city and not see these sea guardie about. And so I think there's very few citizens in Dublin who would say there's too much official presence on the city streets and this is an additional layer of reassurance that we could introduce. How much would this cost? How many staff members would you be talking about? How many wardens would we have?

So in terms of paying for it, there's a proceeds of crime fund called the Community Safety Fund, which I think is one source of funding we could look at. That was used to trial a very small community safety warden program in the north inner city over the last year, which, as I say, was very small, but some lessons were learned from that to apply a bigger, more well-defined city-wide wardens program. Another thing I'd be interested in looking at is maybe using hotel guest levy, which we come in a lot of other cities to fund it.

But I think at the moment in Ireland, the biggest issue is the biggest gap in making things happen is political will rather than funding. And so I think the most important thing is a decision to take this recommendation and actually do it. And that's why I'd like to see it signed off on the government talks that are happening at the moment. OK, but realistically, in terms of numbers, how many of these people with high-vis blue jackets on would there be around the city? And would they be as rare as seeing a Garda?

No, I think to make this worthwhile, it would have to be more than that. At the same time, I think you'd scale up the programme. These people are going to require training, so you're not going to have your full complement on day one. So I think the most important thing is to make the decision to do this and get the ball rolling, get on with it, and then scale up the programme. And I think it would find quite high public success, which I'm hoping then would support its expansion as it grows. I think there's a real...

desire amongst people who use and visit the city to have that official presence visible to them like you would see in other EU capitals. But I think the way to proceed is we start this and then grow it as we see the value of it.

One of our listeners just sent us a WhatsApp on 087 1400 106 to say, just returned from Den Haag and there they have wardens and security standing at most tram bus stops after dark, as well as visible police presence on the streets. I felt very safe. And that's obviously part of what you would be trying to achieve here with these wardens, that you feel more official presence on the streets.

Absolutely. And that maps in a lot of different ways. Like the idea in a lot of jurisdictions is wardens have a set area that they patrol. So they get to know the community there, get to build relationships with the businesses there, which I think a lot of business groups in the city would welcome. And as I say, they're keeping an eye on the urban environment in that area. So it's helpful to the public realm. And so that's

You know, as well as that kind of basic public reassurance of being visible and being seen, them being seen as a deterrent to certain antisocial behaviours, they can also improve the public realm and develop those links with businesses and residents, which I think would positively benefit everyone's experience of the city. And like your listener who called in there said, it's the type of thing we commonly see when people visit other cities in Europe. And I think it's time that we have it in Dublin.

Here's another message that just came in and it says, the people causing the problems for the rest of us don't have any respect or fear of the Gardaí. What hope would any wardens have?

That's a fair concern. And, you know, but the presence does create deterrence. So if there were more Gardaí visible on the streets, I don't think most people would doubt that would deter certain activity. Part of the problem is we surrendered the streets during the lockdowns and they've never been fully reclaimed. And so a new programme like City Wardens would be part of an effort to reclaim the streets for the public.

And I think that's a job of work we didn't really do after lockdowns at this time. We took seriously. And so these wouldn't be police officers. If it was a very serious incident, it wouldn't be a warden's job to resolve it, but they would be in a position then to call it into the Gardaí. And another benefit of that kind of model is that you can have scarce Garda resources more efficiently used. So if you have your warden presence on the street, if there is a serious public order incident that needs a Garda response,

the wardens are calling them in. They would basically have a hotline to the Gardaí, essentially. Exactly, yeah. And not just with the Gardaí, you'd also have very strong links with the store security and office security teams in the city. So you've a safety net being created in the city where everyone has got an involvement in how the city runs. And similarly, that would be with neighbourhood residence groups, neighbourhood watches. You've got a safety net being created through this wardens programme.

where you have everyone talking to each other to try and make the city a more pleasant and safe place to experience. And back again to the question I asked a minute ago, and a number of our listeners have been honest with us about this. How many is he actually suggesting? Are we talking tens? Are we talking 100, 200, 500?

I'd like to get to the scale where we're talking about 100. I think that's the type of numbers we want to have to make a difference. But I'd expect it to be started in the 10s or 20s to get the scheme and the programme started. And another, just one or two more questions actually that are coming in from listeners. What if a warden gets attacked and injured? Then what?

Well, these are going to be well-trained. And so part of the training would be in terms of how you de-escalate incidents verbally. And that does work in a lot of jurisdictions. People might be a bit cynical when they hear that. But there is value in that and the ability of people in that. So as I say, they'll have a hotline to the Gardaí. So if something does escalate to a point where they feel that there's a police response needed, they have the ability to call that in.

And we see from other models in the city that can be learned from, if you think about the Lewis security or the Dublin bus security teams. Again, they're not solving every problem on their own, but they're monitoring certain amounts of space and they can call the guardian when things escalate. But their presence, the tears, a lot of antisocial behavior.

And they have the ability to direct a contact guard if something more serious happens, they need a police response. And that's the type of model we're looking at. Okay, another person points out to the same thing. I'm sorry, but without powers of arrest, detention and penalties, wardens will be a complete waste of time.

So they will have powers of enforcement. So if you take a little warden already has the ability to on the spot fines. Dublin is actually by the standards of cities in Ireland and the UK has quite a lot of bylaws. So by giving these wardens the ability to enforce bylaws, there are quite a lot of powers they have. They won't be police officers. They won't have the power of arrest. But a lot of what's degrading people's experiences in the city at the moment is quite low level antisocial behaviour and menacing behaviour.

And a lot of it is happening because there isn't any efficient presence on the street to discourage it. Where Warden's programmes have been successful, that's where it's actually reducing that type of behaviour. So the idea of bringing him into Dublin would be to do the same here. Now, if I recall correctly, Helen McEntee, after the Dublin riots, made a vow that something like this would be brought into play. Are you optimistic that it will form part of the programme for government?

So the Taoiseach's Dublin Task Force had this as one of its recommendations, its 10 moves for Dublin, which has been widespread acknowledgement across the system is a sensible, necessary programme for Dublin. So this isn't just me calling for this. This is something that the government's own report has said should be done for Dublin. And the programme for government, if it's to be serious about turning around Dublin, needs to look at practical interventions like this. We can make the shift to dynamic around the city. So I...

Hope doesn't come into it. This is what the government should be doing. They recognise that there are issues in Dublin post-pandemic and this is one of the ways we can improve the situation. Kevin Byrne, candidate for the Trinity-Shanded election. Thanks very much indeed, Kevin, for joining us on News Talk this Friday evening. Walking down Grafton Street, said this message after Christmas, a group of youths picked up a rental bike and proceeded to run it and launch it at a group of tourists.

They jumped out of the way and it crashed into a bin. The group just stood there and laughed. The idea that they would be reprimanded for it was obviously alien to them. No sign of any Garda or security anywhere on the street full of tourists. And one final message. Is this not an admission that Gardaí are unwilling and unable to do their job?

on Newstalk.