Shownotes Transcript
Hi, listeners. This is Laila. I am getting on before we start this episode to share some big news, which is that this show is ending at the end of this year. It has been an absolute honor to host this podcast. I've hosted versions of it for more than five years. That's hundreds of episodes, hundreds more of guests, hundreds of thousands of listeners, if not more. And I just want to thank you.
That said, I am not here to say goodbye just yet. I'm here because we have a bit more than a month left and I want to ask you something. A lot of you know me by now. You know that I love questions so much. My currency is questions. I work in questions. And as a way to celebrate this show, I'm hoping that you might send me one question that you think I could help you answer before we're done.
I'm asking because I would like our last episode to answer listeners' questions, as the show has really always been about you. Your question could really be anything. As you know, I have access to all of your favorite FT people and more, so you can ask something with a guest in mind, like maybe you have a question for our foreign editor, Alec Russell, or you want advice about film or music or art or food from our critics.
You can also just share a question with me that's been rolling around in your mind that you're looking for a better way to think about. And then I will find someone who I think can give you the most interesting answer. So send me that question by email. You can email me at lilarap, L-I-L-A-H-R-A-P at ft.com. That's in the show notes. You can also message me on Instagram at lilarap. I see all of those.
And if you want to keep following my work, the best way to do that is to find me on Instagram or Substack and follow me there. I will share what's next as soon as I can. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. On to the show. Welcome to Life and Art from FT Weekend. I'm Lila Raptopoulos, and this is our Friday chat show.
Today we are talking about Wicked, the movie musical that's out today based on the legendary Broadway show. Wicked is a loose prequel to The Wizard of Oz, and it follows its two star witches, Glinda the Good Witch, played in the film by pop star Ariana Grande, and the Wicked Witch of the West, played by Cynthia Erivo. We see the two of them meet in school. Glinda is a popular blonde do-gooder, and Elphaba is a green-skinned social outcast with acute magical powers.
The two become nemeses and then close friends until they eventually choose different paths. The wonderful Wizard of Oz summons you to the Emerald City. Come with me. What? To meet the wizard. Why couldn't you tell me? This is your moment. I'm coming. We pray to you.
This film is just act one of the story. Act two has already been shot and it will be released at the same time next year. It's been a buzzy process. The film was in development for over a decade. It was delayed for five years and it cost $145 million to make, making it one of the year's biggest cinematic risks.
So how did it do? Let's get into it. I'm Lila in New York, and when my bubble closes up around me, I can't hear you. To my left in the New York studio, she and I just did an interpretive dance together at the school ball, and at least one of us cried. It's the FT's U.S. media editor, Ana Nicolaou. Welcome, Ana. Hi, Lila. Hi, Ana. Thanks for coming.
To my right, we are all together in the same room. He taught me what shoes to wear, how to fix my hair, the proper poise when I talk to boys. This man has been trying to make me popular for years. It's the FT's senior corporate finance correspondent, Eric Platt.
Hi, Lila. It's so nice to be here. It's such a pleasure. It's just a joy. Total joy. Okay, so before we get into what we thought, I thought we could maybe set the scene for how we saw this film. Anna, you finagled all three of us into the New York premiere of this film at MoMA, the Museum of Modern Art. Yes. What did we see?
We saw it was definitely unusual, I would say. So there had been an official L.A. premiere on, I think, Saturday. And then this was on the following Thursday. And this was effectively kind of like a New York's party for Wicked. It wasn't really an official premiere. So, yeah, we were at the MoMA. It felt weirdly casual at times, if you know what I mean, like.
Like, it was this bizarre mix of high and low where, like, there were all these fashion people and it was hosted by Anna Wintour who apparently had insisted that the whole thing happen in the first place because she's very into Broadway. Uh...
And then, of course, the stars were there and there was a red carpet. So we saw Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo and Jeff Goldblum, you know, chatting with Anna Wintour. Yes. And then John Chu, the director, introduced the film. But we basically watched it in, I didn't even know the MoMA had a theater. Sort of a sad underground theater. Yeah. A little auditorium. Yeah, I guess they closed the museum early that day. It all felt like a little like illegal.
You know what I mean? Like just being in a museum like that when you're like after hours. Yeah. Yeah. I'm still irked by the fact there was not popcorn or Diet Coke and they gave out red vines and boxed water. Right. That was my real takeaway. Yeah. We were all starving. Okay. So tell me now, separated from all the buzz, where are you coming to Wicked from? And what did you actually think of the movie, Eric? It was fantastic. Wow.
I would highly recommend it to anyone. So I come to Wicked from seeing the Broadway musical. I'd seen the musical once probably when I first moved to New York. And then I saw it again recently. This would have been in like 2022 for a friend's birthday. And this friend has seen Wicked maybe 12 or 13 times. They have a list of, you know, all the best Elphaba's. And it was interesting coming to it then because you can see the play and the musical in a very different light because it is quite dark.
And that will not come across maybe in the marketing materials. Right. So you thought it was fantastic. What did you like most about it?
I thought it stayed so true to the Broadway productions, right? Nothing was lost. In fact, if anything, it really elevated the show. It was kind of a bit like seeing Chicago from the stage to the movie. It really, they were able to add something to it and the storytelling was much more finessed than in Broadway where like in Defying Gravity, right? The finale of Act One, they speed through that in the musical, right? It's four minutes. That was...
scene in the movie is stretched out to 10 minutes and they really give it the kind of like space to breathe and yeah it makes a lot more sense yeah yeah um i don't know what you think
I really liked it. I would say I'm a casual Wicked fan. Like, I saw it when I was in high school, and I think it was probably a year or two after it came out on Broadway, so it was still relatively new at that time. And then I don't really think about it much in my daily life, but I've always liked the songs a lot, and I really liked the movie, actually. Mm-hmm.
I thought it was really well done. I thought the two leads were amazing. I sort of felt like if they weren't so good, it might have been a bit of a mess. And I felt like it really demanded them to like really like bring everything to it. And they pulled it off.
But if it had been like a lesser performer, I'm not sure if it would have worked. A hundred percent agree. Yeah, I agree. Like Ariana Grande's comedic timing was spectacular. I know. She's funny. She's funny. And it comes across in the movie and it's not like you could see a world where maybe she comes across a little over eager. And you didn't get that at all from this movie. She...
It felt like the role was made for her. Yeah. We literally were laughing and crying. Yeah. It's true. We should say. During the show. We should admit that. Yeah. I did both laugh out loud and cry twice. Twice, yeah. But I came into this like all I wanted was to enjoy Ariana Grande and cry during Defying Gravity and both happened. So I felt pretty good. But I came to it as a kind of a passive fan too. I've seen the show once in 2017.
I watched The Wizard of Oz a lot as a kid. But this film was like... I felt sort of like you did, Anna. Like, I had a wonderful time. It was, like, sumptuous and colorful. And, like, you felt like you wanted to eat it, sort of. So I loved that. I loved them. They were amazing. And they were, like, fully in their characters. And maybe it's all a ruse, but their chemistry seems, like, real. But I did also do feel... It felt a little like...
It was crowded. And I don't really know if that's just because that's like the curse of a musical adaptation and they had to fit a lot in. But I felt a little like I was being whisked around sometimes really quickly, like whisked through the Emerald City and whisked through some of those school scenes. And I like kind of wanted to sit in them a little bit longer. But that wasn't really the point. I think that makes sense, right? Because when you think about a Broadway production,
Right, the sets will change and that'll indicate, you know, we're at a new point in life and the timeline has shifted. Yeah. You don't really have that same thing with this movie if you're trying to get every single song in. Yeah, that's true. So suddenly...
I think that's why people were complaining about the length, but actually they needed that time to kind of slow things down a little bit. They really did. Because otherwise it would be a little harried. It still felt fast, and it was a two-and-a-half-hour-long movie. Right. Yeah, really nuts. Yeah, we got home at 1 a.m. that night, and I was like, it's a school night. Well, we were eating Poke Bowls next to Anna Wintour for too long. She did not eat. Of course. For the record. Yeah.
I guess I'm wondering if you had any memorable scenes, any songs that represented what you liked or didn't about the film, what sort of stood out to you when you think back on the film now? I guess the ones that are the big songs. I thought Ariana's Popular was just 10 out of 10. Yeah. About popular and with an assist. It's me who you're better than who you were. Well, there's nothing that can stop you from becoming popular.
I thought the final scene, and I'm not usually into these really extended final scenes. Like, you know, in like an action film, I usually just get really pissed off. But it was just really good. And you really felt like the sense of triumph, like at the very end, at least I felt it. And again, but I also think that's also Cynthia being so good at it. Yeah. Such a good singer and just, yeah. I felt like it ended perfectly. Yeah. Yeah. I would even say,
the opening number, there was some really interesting nuance in it because, and this is a spoiler, if you haven't seen the Broadway play. It's fine. It's your fault at this point. You've had 20 years. Right. You know, actually, that they're friends, right? And so when you're watching that first scene,
And, you know, everyone's celebrating the death of Elphaba. And actually, when you look at Ariana's face, it's pained at moments, very subtly. And then she's, you know, she's trying to put on the show, which is what she does the entire musical, right? It's this performance advocacy at times, right? Yeah. It's this idea to be popular, to do what the masses want. But you can see she's struggling with it. And I thought, I was like, wow, okay, they're...
They're really going for it here. They're really trying to get this right. Right. Yeah. I really liked a lot of little things. Again, I really liked Ariana Grande's like comedic stuff. I really liked this moment where the Wizard of Oz is played by Jeff Goldblum. And he's like showing them this vision for this future Oz. And he's trying to figure out the color of the brick road. And he's like trying blue and green or whatever. And
She shows this yellow and she's like, it just says road to me. There's like a lot of moments like that. She's sort of like waved at one of the scary monkeys at one point and said, hello, sir. She's good. She's really good. Okay. Why don't we get a little deeper into this? I'm trying to get a sense of what this film and this
play is about at its core and how well the film hit on the themes. Eric, I know you interviewed your friend who's seen this play 12 times. Right. Did he help you get a sense of what this was really? He did. We spoke for a while about kind of
actually what comes up in this, right? And so in one part, it's a story about a friendship between two women and their growth through childhood. It's a story, it's a deeply political story, right? It's one where folks need a common enemy and in the pursuit of power, people are willing to give them that. They're willing to really put a veil over people's eyes in pursuit of that. The whole idea that
she melted because of a pot of water, right, or a pile of water is wild. And yet people are willing to believe that because they want, they need the common enemy. And I think it's interesting because this musical came out in 2003. This is right after 9/11. It's right after the US has invaded Iraq. The main character is green, right? This is a story about someone who's literally being othered by the rest of society.
you could say this is a story about race, right? Like, why is she being ostracized for this? And so I think there's so much there that it's hitting on. Do you think the film tapped into that
theme well. I kind of felt like it really did. I felt like when I left, I was thinking about this idea that like societies need an enemy or someone to hate. And I was thinking about how we watched it after Trump was elected. And like there was this conversation happening that Republicans used or Trump used migrants as like a scapegoat for why people are so economically...
depressed or struggling and it really worked. And the Democrats, like all they could use was Donald Trump. They didn't use billionaires. They didn't use some other enemy, but they needed a better enemy. And yeah, it turns out we do prefer as a society to hate outsiders. Right. The whole arc of...
animals shouldn't be allowed to speak. Yeah. Yeah. Big animal welfare film. Are we talking about animals or are we talking about which people shouldn't have a voice? Right. Right. That's the threat of this, right? Yeah. I agree with all of that. I think, I mean, it's interesting because I don't know that I've really thought about this that thoroughly before, but The Wizard of Oz is one of my favorite movies.
And that is such a political story as well. And they're both such American stories, it feels like. Like both of them, I feel like the plot could apply to whatever's happening politically in this country in any given decade. Yeah. Which is really interesting because you look at them on the surface and they don't seem that complicated. But I think, and that's what's interesting. And obviously, Wicked is kind of an inversion of The Wizard of Oz. But I think it's interesting that they both kind of expertly tap into this
strife that is sometimes hard to articulate. Yeah, yeah. I'm curious whether the fact that there's so much behind it sort of makes it tortured in any way or tortures it in any way. I've been thinking about how like Wicked is this remake of a remake of a remake. Let me see if I can get this right. It's a film adaptation of the musical Wicked, which is a loose adaptation of the
1995 Gregory Maguire novel Wicked, which in turn is a revisionist exploration of the L. Frank Baum book from 1900, The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, which is, of course, related to its 1939 musical film adaptation with Judy Garland, The Wizard of Oz. And then that's all unrelated to The Wiz, which is the 74 Broadway black reimagining of The Wizard of Oz, which also was adapted into a musical. And yeah, it's a lot. And I'm wondering if it feels like kind of tortured by that.
Or if it's like not a big deal. Oh, but don't you love that? Like I think in fashion, right? Like we're constantly remaking the same thing, right? Like when was the bark, when did Dior create the bar jacket, right? Like, but we're still reworking that because it has staying power, right? I think that's the same here. There's like this really interesting themes and that's why it's getting sliced and diced into so many different vehicles, right? And when I think of Wicked itself coming to the movies, um,
It was initially meant to go to movies before the Broadway adaptation. Like, the rights were bought ages ago, I believe by Universal. Oh, interesting. And they were sitting on them because they didn't know what made most sense, right? Should this be a drama? How do you do this? And so all this time, for two decades, right, Universal has had the right to turn this into a film. And it's just suddenly now, like, enough time had passed. Yeah. It's still doing gangbusters at the box office in New York. But it wasn't, like...
It wasn't like doing the Rent movie so close to the Rent, you know, production on Broadway. Whereas this feels like there's kind of an open field for it to land. Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel that way or does it feel like too much? I agree. I mean, the cynical take would be that we're lacking in new ideas. Yeah. And kind of the creative world in general. Like, so next week when it comes out, the other big movie coming out is Moana 2. Right. Which is just another Disney remake. Yeah.
But I also agree. I don't think it doesn't feel labored at this point, just in spite of this very extensive press tour. And I think it's because I hadn't like I'm a very like avid consumer of pop culture. I hadn't really been thinking about Wicked in a while until this movie came around. So it did does it doesn't feel old to me. Yeah. Strangely. Yeah. Yeah.
Also, it's funny. What do you think? Well, I just, one of the most popular, when we do more or less, the most popular more or less as we get is people saying like, less remakes, more original ideas, less remakes, more original ideas. So we have to actually tell people, please don't say less remakes anymore because people are so sick of it. But actually, I mean, when I saw an ad for this, I feel like last Christmas there was a preview for it. I was like, oh, hell yeah, this is good. This is my dune. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, like just let us have this. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
So, yeah. It's fun. So it's okay. Less remakes. But like if they're good remakes, it's not a problem. This one feels legitimate. Yeah, this is legit. Yeah.
They also really did all this stuff. They, like, planted nine million tulips to, like, do that scene with the tulips. You know, Ariana Grande, like, changed her voice in a number of ways. And they really, like, they committed. If you're going to do it. It was fascinating because Ariana Grande did a stint on RuPaul's Drag Race after or in between filming. And you could actually tell that her, like, her voice had changed from... And this must have aired, like, in 22 or something? Or 23? Like...
You could tell something had shifted. Yeah. Not just her, like, natural aging. Yeah, yeah. She said that that's because everybody gave her a hard time because they acted like she was being fake. But she was like, no, I'm consciously protecting my voice for this film. For the last part of our conversation, I'm curious, what makes a good film adaptation of a Broadway musical, in your opinion? I think the casting is critical. Yeah. Right? I think you need someone who can really sing, which is why...
It works so well here. Why it worked in Chicago, for instance. And you need to hopefully like the book that it all relies upon is like very kind of grand because that's what you're trying to do. You're lifting something that's like on a what 40 foot stage and turning it into like this giant production. And so you have to really kind of have the eye to to translate that. Yeah. I think like a wink.
to the audience is usually kind of a good thing. Just like there's some like knowingness to it. Chicago had so much knowingness to it. Mamma Mia, I would, not everybody loves Mamma Mia, but I thought it was a delight. And that was a total sort of wink to the audience. I like the wink thing. Yeah. Something to make it a little fresh. And I think this version of Wicked did have that. It felt modern. Yeah. But I grew up there. I think it's,
Number one is the casting because Broadway requires real talent. You know what I mean? Like you can't fake it when you're performing live.
however many times per week. And I think that translates to the screen as well. Yeah. It's just a very demanding kind of acting and singing. Yeah. Yeah, it's that ability to be super versatile of like having that quiet moment, right, when Elphaba and Glinda are dancing together when Glinda realizes she's wronged Elphaba by giving her the ugly hat to where she's embarrassed her. Right. To have that kind of like quietness and then minutes later be belting, it takes a range. Like that's range. Yeah.
And not everyone has it, as we've seen in some movies. Yeah. I think you made also a really good point at the beginning, which is that when you're in a theater, you're aware of like,
the limitations of the theater so like the lights go down and they change the set and you like expect that and act one ends and then you come back for act two and you expect that and there's only so much they can i mean do but in films like you're blind to all of that so actually they have to figure out how to fill those holes well so you don't feel like you're uh watching this like messy version of of the play no exactly right like there was a lot added to this movie uh that wasn't in
It wasn't actually in the musical, right? Yeah. Like the whole – some of the conversation with the wizard, right? Some of the choosing the color of the yellow brick road, right? Like all that was added and all of it was like to develop these characters also, which I would almost argue you don't have to do if you're on Broadway, right? Because people –
There's not a close-up of your face, right? There isn't this quiet moment because actually like you are belting for the back of the house. Right. Which is very different on theater where like a zoom lens is going to be right in your face. So it's a different skill. Yeah, it's a really good point. Part two is coming out this time next year. Are you going?
I thought we were just going to go together. I thought we were going to film another podcast for this. I'm fully locked in. Again, I think I was an easy target audience, but I honestly do think the movie is quite good. Yeah. Oh, great. I'll be there. I'm seeing it again this weekend. Really? Yeah. I got to bring my niece. Yeah. It'll be a doozy. All right. Eric and Anna, thank you both so much. We'll be back in just a minute for more or less.
Welcome back for more or less where each guest says one thing they want to see more of or less of culturally. Ana, what do you have? Mine is very specific. I've been listening to this New York Times podcast about the whale from Free Willy. And I don't know if this is my version of like baking sourdough during the pandemic, but it has really been a joy. Yeah. And
I just feel it feels relevant, but it's so different from everything else I'm learning about. And I think I just want more things like that, things that are different from my usual like
scrolling through the news. And I guess that's probably on me. But yeah, more podcasts about whales, I guess, would be my more. There are fewer narrative podcasts than there used to be. There you go. There you go. More about whales. Okay. It's called The Good Whale. Great. We'll put it in the show notes. Please do. Eric. I have a less, actually. Okay. I want to see less of whales
boxing and MMA on Netflix or on any streaming platform, get it out of here. Yeah. And get some of the trashy reality television that's also been on off of my screen. I want, if we're going to do reality, I want to see Survivor. Like, take me back to the good old days of like, let's see how people are like coping and living with each other and the strategy. I don't want to see House of Villains. What is that? Yeah.
What am I watching? What is House of Villains? House of Villains is a show on the E! Network, which I had to watch in between watching that Jake Paul or whoever. Wait, you watched that? I watched the fight, too. Someone put this on? Yeah, I was going to get to you after. You watched that? No, no, no. Someone put it on the television at a party, and I was like, you need to change this. At a party? Yeah. There's a lot wrong with this sentence, obviously. Right.
But House of Villains is a show where they took the villains from reality shows over the last 20 years and they put them all in a house together. Oh. And they like get voted out somehow. It's like Teresa Giudice from The Real Housewives of New York. I liked her. Wes from The Real World Road Rules Challenge. It's these names. I love Wes. Yeah. But it's...
It's not television. I don't know what it is. I want less of that. I feel like maybe we're going to like that show, but otherwise I totally agree. Lila and I were reacting positively to your description. Yeah, I just want, yeah, that Jake Paul versus Tyson. Why did you watch it? Because I want to know what America watches. I feel like I should. Stick with the whale. I mean, what a data point.
Again, I'm in a radical acceptance phase right now. Okay, I have a more. This is maybe the most important more to me that I've ever shared on this show. I feel it more strongly than any other more that I have recommended. I want more places to reliably dance to the hits in New York City.
So I think this is a problem for really big cities and smaller cities and small towns even do a much better job at this. If you live in a small town that has like three bars, you know that on the weekend you can go to one of those bars and there's going to be a guy there or a woman doing a good enough job DJing all the songs you want to hear.
You're going to hear We Found Love in a Hopeless Place. You're going to hear The Dog Days Are Over, which I know not everybody wants to hear, but it builds great on the dance floor. You're going to play Call Your Girlfriend. You're going to play Texas Hold'em, whatever. When You Live in New York...
Everyone is trying way too hard to be cool. You end up waiting in a line to get into a club that only plays house music or that only plays, like, 70s funk off of exclusively vinyl. And in my experience, I just can't... You can't let go. I feel like you're attacking me right now. Like...
People want to go to basement and they want to go to knockdown centers and nowadays. All right. Well, I want more like my... You want the hits. I want the hits. I want DJs who aren't trying, who are just playing pop. I want wedding reception bar. I want, you know, the good stuff. That's what I want. So if any listeners know...
It could be like the new counterculture thing. Of a place. Yeah, that's true. All right. Yeah, the like anti-cool becomes cool or whatever. Yeah, like people using like not smartphones. Yes. Yes. I want to be at a bar using a flip phone. That's too far. And dancing to some Taylor Swift song from 2006. All right. This was fun. This was great. A delight. Ana and Eric, thank you so much for being on the show. Thanks so much. Thank you.
That's the show. Thank you for listening to Life and Art from FT Weekend. I've put links to the things we've discussed in the show notes. As I mentioned at the top, please do send me your questions. I'm on email at lilarap.ft.com. Again, Instagram at lilarap. All of that is in the show notes too.
I'm Laila Raptopoulos, and here's my outrageously talented team. Katya Kamkova is our senior producer. Lulu Smith is our producer. Our sound engineers are Joe Salcedo, Sam Jovinko, and the great Breen Turner with original music by Metaphor Music. Topher Forges is our executive producer, and our global head of audio is Cheryl Brumley. Have a lovely weekend, and we'll find each other again on Monday.
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