Episode 908: The living legacy of the Mac User Group and MacinTech
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The the internet didn't become a widely accessible resource for years after the mac was bored. So where did people go to get max support? In this episode of the mo podcast works expLoring the history of mac user groups and their influence on the mac community.

One thing before we jump into IT this friday, in november eighth, the new max start shipping. So on the next podcast, we're gonna talk about the new m4 imac， the new m4 macbook pro and the new m for mac mini。 So be sure to tune into next week show. Okay, let's get back to the macintosh users group.

pocket. I'm on the loyola this week. We have a special episode of the show. I met with the main tech mac users group or the magin tech mug for short. And this one is located in the denver area of colorado in the united states.

They've been together for decades, and we're taking this opportunity to talk about mugs, how they started, what mugs met in the early days of the mac, what has happened to months during the time on the internet and more making tech meats monthly. And I joined them during their september meeting, which happened the day after the glow time of ant red. Tombo is a founder of mac intact, and he speaks about the history of mugs.

Several other members, including David born, Robert everyman and Christena, share their mud stories. I feel that identify them during our chat. So I apologized for that.

And i'd like to take this opportunity to thank and the suhail ka of mac intact for setting this all out. So you have never heard of a mac user group. I encourage to listen. They're got great stories and plenty of history.

Lets get started. My career started making in the uh, early nineties, and during that time, mac user groups were very popular. There were there a lot of them probably heard of the accused group? I think that was a bit like the one. I don't think they started at all, but they are very popular, at least in my area. I live in several sco.

And so as time has gone by, the idea of a mac user group is kind of way a little bit, I guess, uh, so but I thought I would be interesting to talk about that because I think there's a lot of history there, uh, there's a lot of community there ah and so I thought be interesting topic to talk about, uh, because i'd like to present the cell episode for the podcast. And we have a wide range of a listener. So we have people who have been around uh, using a macos for a long, long time, and we have some really likely new people to the platform and you know using through using iphone to something like that. Uh, so I thought maybe a good way to start a conversation is to ask, you know, what is a mac user group for somebody who is not familiar with that?

So I actually .

started with an apple user group, apple q in queensland to try about forty years ago. I just did thai um and IT involved everybody except me, I think taking their apple computers to a school classroom. And we like we showed off our software and we exchanged software on this sloppy disk.

And there was a news letter um as of may have mentioned before to this group, we had copy pace back in those days. 事实 是。 And what we call uh Clarke, which was a White blue and I used to cut out things and put them on uh piece of typing.

And then I think we had a copy machine I think was rotating handles involved and they not take them badly, the new post office and send them off to all the members. So that was I was the secret treasure, I think at the time. So I got involved with that. So um they've been apple user groups around for quite a long time.

I don't think the apple queue is still an active active but um and then when I moved to a behm, we started a mac use a group there with the help of one of the local apple marketing rips who ended up would not end up progressed to being the I T directive for campus, which you are so a little strange. Hi, but I didn't have much input in the answer. Angered history for some of you, but I don't have much long how much all the some of you you are in terms of interactions with using .

gram there at the very beginning of main tech.

I wasn't no h sorry.

you bread and semi .

and I wasn't very beginning but I did join. I'm trained about eighty eight.

You would be for .

that yeah I was there for the first uh, sort of introduction tory meetings uh before macintosh was really formed um there were uh a number of people that that had gotten together. Um I I honestly don't remember how many of us knew each other um beforehand but uh regimen and blanch coin who worked for C T A H which is what computer technology associated they were defense contractor that was uh in the trial building h in the denver tech center.

Um we also had a very large U S. West office and a number of people like deniston by and bill pickering who were uh U S. West employees that were starting to use macintoshes and uh mike phelps and I from S A I C.

Um we're all within a few blocks of each other. Uh I think our first meeting was actually at the C T. A office uh region and black coin hosted um and then um because they were uh a defense contractor, uh, as was I say, I see they had some difficulty uh getting visitors into the building.

Uh and so then a starry uh was able to to host the meetings of the moon I building h which was A U S. West facility. So most of the early meetings were at the U.

S. West building, uh, the blinding building that there in the D. T, C.

So, brand, and are you one of the founding members of maindeck?

yes.

yeah. And how long ago was magical? stablished?

Uh, what did we have? What do we have in in our? No, Sandy, I think like many of one thousand nine hundred .

and eighty seven h ask what is what was the motivation of starting out? Uh, the mug just basically trying to get people together with this common interest yeah so you know .

I I think a number of things were happening roman at the time. And you know in the in the mid eighties, uh, the whole notion really of, uh, personal computers were still somewhat knew, right? So most people were not very familiar with any of the concepts related to personal computing the way that you know we are now uh if you need help with your computer, ask one of your kid is right um understanding how to to utilize a personal computer was uh a whole brand new field for most people and uh as they begin to use things like microsoft, windows or C P M computers or maybe a unix machine and then the macintosh came out IT really turned the personal computing world on its end.

Instead of typing commands in and reading text back on the screen and memorizing commands, uh you know, maneuver through the file system and execute applications and and perform different functions, the macintosh gave you this beautiful screen that was the first bit mapped computer, at least the first commercially available deep map computer. And there were unique graphics workstations that you know probably cost ten thousand hours a piece at the time that had some of those same capabilities, but that was a very specialized machine. Uh and of course, the apple lisa had come out before the act but yet had limited commercial success.

Um I actually started using the mac uh in one thousand nine and eighty three uh which you'll which you'll chocolate lab because IT wasn't released until eighty four. When I was in in college of bowling Green city university in ohio, we had a lisa and we had gotten in advanced copy of the macintosh X L software that allow the lisa to run macintosh software because that was the only way to develop applications at the time. The only way to build a mac APP was to build IT on the lisa, and the only way to test IT was to run IT in the market cell emulator on the lisa.

Uh, and so our school had one of those and I happen to have gotten uh one of my first uh campus employment was working for university computer services doing technical computation. So I got to play with all of the new toys to ride up. Uh you know a fifteen page handout that we would share with staff for the or the students on how to use some of the the technology that was available in the computer lab.

So I had gotten to play with the lisa and the mac X L, uh, at the end of one thousand nine hundred eighty three, prior to the release of the macintosh. And then when the macintosh was released, we got a couple of them that were in our our computer lab at the university. And there was always a long wine waiting to get to use the machine right.

There was a lot of excitement around IT, so I ended up grabbing all three of the manuals that were available for the back at the time. There was one on the mentos system in finder, one for mac right, and one for mac painted. And while I settle on the floor for hours, waiting for my terms to use the machine, I read all three of those books from cover to cover, which then instantly made me an expert, uh, because, uh, as you know, no one else reads manuals.

你是。

i don't need no .

stinking ducks.

No, I I became an instant action tosh expert because I actually read the the manual that came with the computer, and then I got to write up a guide for uh the faculty and staff on how to use the account。 Sh, so romen, back to your question about the the mac user group. Um a lot of people who had macintosh either had limited exposure to personal computers in general, or if they had computer experience IT was with the command line interface on on something like windows or not, windows would have been M S, off in in M S. Author, maybe A C P M computer .

may be um so there .

was a lot to learn and a lot to discover and this was really um mostly free internet. And the internet at the time probably require that you use a model with a dialect connection which may have only been three hundred board, if you can image that today. yes.

And most of the sites that were available on the internet only did F, T, P. Uh, this was before the the web. And there was no, no web browse or yet.

So your use of the internet was to dial up, get the I P address of an F T P server that you wanted to go to, and then scroll through the directory listing to find files or documents that you wanted to download, and then wait for hours for them to download. So getting and sharing information was not write your fingertips like IT is today Carrying you know a uh, supercomputer around with you in your pocket. So the mac user groups really gave an opportunity for people to share their experiences and their knowledge with one another.

They they weren't done as classes, but IT was always sort of a training exercise, right? Somebody he was going to demo, oh, I got this new word processing program that is Better than mac, right? Because IT does X Y N G and um IT allowed people to share.

Their knowledge and experience on using the mac with other people that that didn't have exposure uh to all of those things yet because the magazines which were great at the time, i've got all of my original mac world and mac user magazines. They came out a month, you know, only only once a month. And because of the lead times, if something happened today, you may not see IT in the magazine for two months, maybe three months.

There was A A leg, a lencs in the delivery of information back then. Very limited access on the internet and the published materials were not timely. So uh, having the mauser group where you could go see the latest uh, the latest hardware, the latest software and you know the new, new features that were available was really uh a great way of being able to stay out today.

And brad, don't forget to the every december when we had our Christmas party, you would hand up puppy desks, right? I I .

actually ran across the materials. I I did a search from my attack on my laptop, uh, to see what I could find. And I have you know copies of the website from twenty twelve, and I have some of andy's old newsletters from you know two thousand eight. Uh, so i've got quite a bit of the old material and we actually had a new member packet that we provided, a hand out and a floppy desk and new members were given a copy of. A lot of the common popular share are utilities so that they wouldn't have to download them because downloading at three hundred board was so tediously slow. Uh and so also with those meetings, people would often bring a computer and a stack of floppy desks and they would make copies of some of the updates for the new utilities, uh, so that people who didn't have an internet access would be able to get a copy on a copy desk.

I I needed to say what my experience was, and i've gotta think IT was one thousand nine hundred and eighty three apple. My husband worked for john's manville. An apple came and demonstrated the lisa, and then they went on.

And boy, I don't know how many hundreds of lisa for john mandel, for the a research. He was in the research area. And at that point he had decided we were gonna buy alisa.

And of course, that was a years salary at that time. So we did not get a lisa, but we saw the mac, the mac commercial and like the next day, went down to our local computer store and bottom c. And that would have been the february nineteen eighty four, we got our mac and there was no looking back at that point. We were going to builder mac maniacs at the time because we didn't know about this one nearby, and IT would take us forty minutes to get to that meeting, which was A N car, which was another experience, and then we found .

get Better time. Now IT was .

IT was great, but we couldn't get up there ever, especially when IT snow. There was no going to holder in the snow and it's like, wow, there's one here in the tech center where we got to get so we have joined magin tech in one thousand nine hundred and eighty seven, which is why I think magnet may have started like one thousand nine hundred and eighty five right then at the beginning.

Yeah I think in my notes the C T A, uh, macintosh group started in eighty five. Um but we didn't start macintosh until one thousand nine hundred eighty seven. Uh, at least that that was when the club organization was actually formed. So we may have had some initial meetings in eighty six, but I think IT was one thousand nine hundred and eighty seven that we actually created the business structure uh around creating macin tech as a five one three three.

So one in year more than at that time I came.

And I think in eighty eight, we were meeting out close to and ten or airport at the time I D I. I still lived in town back. And my first experience for the macintosh happened on a classified program with the wonderful name of p eighty six dash two, which 啊， which see you, what did you do? Well, sees the second classified program that to my company was, uh, beating on.

And so we were doing all the graphics on on a megadoses SHE would should was like, what do you do with this thing? You moved around and all the son was like, click this is really easy there at which point I I wanted one that I um into awaiting a few years before that money I first make a class but in the meantime I found out about a macin tech and I went to a meeting and I that time uh request needing them and I was hurt ed I came back with offers of information to ask on to my uh colleagues that uh how I was in Martina um within a few years almost everybody uh on cape's head, the man on the desk, um that was my main means of using a main tosh until I bought my to C I yeah I have created that thing like crazy and entered up forty making bites of the flow brand down with. Uh, change the processor to a sixty to forty, change graphics cards like had millions of colors.

And eventually IT just really became so absolute. I had upgrade my room. Now running a the two mac pro.

Are the flow here in there within their respective families? Are you once consider the ah go to person for tech for tech help?

yeah.

Windows.

really.

I have one sister that I convinced to go to mac SHE had a windows machine that was so full of viruses run.

I mean.

that would kind of creep along. And I said, you really have to go to a man. There aren't any body ruses I was she's got make .

many I like twenty seven, which obviously is the until machine. So i've got parallels running on that because my wife has a few programs that SHE has to run on, uh, windows and i've spent all afternoon restful with one .

of los of course you did.

Does does David have the imac with the, uh, the sun far? I'm making .

the Better. And what do .

you mean by sunflower? I .

haven't .

heard .

that one on .

the .

big day OK. I I am one of the mac educational computers, the bondi blue ones.

Yeah.

a lot of a why. But I we had an I T first on p apparent. The thing to do was to turned .

into an.

you have to take turn to do that. I was, but I did keep the pixel fixed.

I have I may have some of you think we still have a apple two sitting in a storage unit. We're not using IT, but um my husband bought IT and was hang out at user meetings for apple two people before the mac came along. And of course, i've learned to use IT as well and we were done in housing.

I was at the you to receive houston and they were offering some programing classes on the apple two. So I sorted learning IT about that. Um and then when we moved up here to denver and I took my child to kindergarten, my elementary school had a whole world full of apple tools and I started volunteering. I've still there and that was thirty six years ago and i'm still attack at school.

So I I work .

through the whole migration of apple two, which, by the way, we took the network and we actually worry IT all together. We're using a server with apple and then we moved into max. And i'd probably had every favor or of my god through my hands til more recently when the district had to go all PC and if they tolerate the small amount of math equipment and the ipad. But um now i'm force to work a whole a lot of time on windows acy and all I can say about window seat right and beginning to look an awful lot like a macos. On all of that yes.

my first apple was the apple to a but I had one before apple was a apple um I had a kim one board which had the sixty five or two chip on the had a massive amount of one key of memory on board. X, A, this more key. Pt, and there was a chess program that you could the type into a and applied chest with many other things.

But I made the engineering mistake of the building a case for the power supply and having the boards horizontal instead of vertical. And so by the time I had different things programmed in, I save the programmed to um I 在 yes。 And IT went low because when I was cold, that was the Christal time in Crystal was.

I built A, I upgraded to a four k five k total by soldering on about sixteen different PS. That was a fun exercise book that was back in the day when I was using a about yeah yeah are stalling into the mind frame, contacting.

And fortunately.

the moon, the phone line was bad when IT right. And now you all right a lot. And IT would do things like and sit, control characters into the strain. So see what was wrong. Just said to delete the line and type.

But I have to agree with what brad said earlier that one of the great things about getting together in a group was that chance to show information. And the other thing that was happening was huge audiences. For anyone who came into town to talk about something, I can remember being um a dobby photoshop um conference that was packed that that the best way to learn all this stuff was to get together as a group and see the presentations. I mean, there wasn't any Better way to learn about IT.

The mac user group was also a uh an outstanding marketing tool for companies that have products or services that to be able to address a group of you know thirty, fifty, one hundred people that were all there focused on uh, apple products for macintosh. Uh specifically in the early days um they would often send user groups uh demo copies of software uh which they would often do a demonstration and then uh often would raffle off uh we um that there were a lot of local representative that were in different parts of the country that were essentially sales people representing their companies products and so we would get visits from uh bet rumor from clarus to show all the clarus products when they came out. And um I don't think we ever had guy coa socket, but someone from four d uh you know would come and demonstrate their database product.

And uh IT was a great way for companies to market directly to consumers where they could give a presentation to a uh a group of people uh, even though IT seemed small by today's standards, being able to send somebody to denver, uh, they would often be here for a few days and they would go to bolder mac maniacs one night. They would come to mark in tech uh, a day or two later. Uh, and they would hit three or four user groups in the in the area, uh, in order to get presentations on their new products was A A great marketing tool for them and a great learning opportunity .

for the user group members yeah in person demos that that that was invaluable yeah there used to be a marine mac users group here in the the area and I used to go to but you to have like an event every year so where they would have boots and you know different companies welcome would be there other other know back when there was a after dark. Those guys back in those days and I um mac user would have a booth and I would have worked a booth and give out issues on the magazine and and talk to people on. So and I was IT was fun.

It's sure in the early days, IT really, really was a lot of fun. Yeah, lab, weren't you around in the eighties or nineties?

Uh, yeah I was. I will call going to matter jack meetings. U. S, H.

there.

In nineteen eighty six, IT was a report of first man S, E. IT still sits on the dance club stairs. I have to start sense to move out here, but it's there.

This is Becky. I am a relatively new member of mac attack maybe since two thousand eleven. I'd got my first map in two thousand and IT was a math book pro um but I I roman D I don't know if you were at tech TV when leal report was there, but I watch a lot of shows on real port network and over the years he's constantly talked about, you know especially on his calling shows that it's say all mac mac group don't don't exist anymore.

That's an old thing. That's all. So somewhere in the last year, I had an opportunity to call into one of these shows, and that was one of the first things I told him. I said, leo, I want to know there are still a few map groups out. I'm a .

member very .

much for that.

I was, uh, one of the web producers on the screen. savers. I text T, V, well, well, so yeah. So I used to work directly with leo.

And if you used to watch tech T, V and the screen same, so I used to do this thing called shown up. No, they used to take calls and stuff during the show, and they went over support. Uh, I basically wrote the show notes during during the show, and then I was, and I was the technical web producer.

I guess you got so I would handle content that was on the technical side. And the screens ever also did a lot of like, look, you know, tech lifestyle stuff, s stuff. So that was another producer.

I if there was I, how to? I was usually involved in that. So yes, so I know. Yes, I vents spoken. I he's been around for a while.

allows happy to be able to inform and that they're still there are a few old timbers out there that in mac groups, there are still a few around the .

country that that he is a good to segway. And to what I want to talk about with with mac user, with that user groups is kind of like the influence of the internet. So is not fair to say that the internet is the reason why mac user groups kind of became most popular.

We have answered .

on internet, so you.

but at the beginning, I think the internet added the user groups because I made IT easier to for the groups to make themselves know right. And and people learned about the internet by coming to the user groups. true. I I think they're definitely .

been a shift though that you know, if I can just make the casual observation, most of us on the evening call that are of a certain age um people who are Younger, who grew up uh in the internet age uh and after the advance of google and you know places like youtube rather than you know going to a library or going to a user group meeting to talk to other people, uh face to face, later generations have become much more custom suggest instantaneously searching the internet on their phone and you know finding a website, finding an article, the blog, finding a youtube video.

Now um the the the Younger people that were kids when the internet became uh available in commonplace are much more accustom to searching for the answers they want. And maybe not quite as discerning about getting feedback on whether it's a good product or a bad product. I think some of us are more incline to say, uh, Chris, in your experience, what do you think is the best photo editor i'm thinking of, you know, x or y and I know that Chris is used them and he has the expertise to be able to say if you're trying to do you know color corrections, uh, then photoshop is Better, but it's expensive.

If you're just trying to crop your photos and make simple adjustments, then this other product is probably more cost effective, right? So you can get that kind of feedback from people that have real world hands on experience that you can always find on the internet. Um and so I think that that the user groups still have their place.

There are people who prefer to talk and see and discuss uh rather than just uh you know reading somebodies um posting on on the web somewhere where you don't know that person's background. Uh you might also notice you know a number of the the people who are in our in our group, our software developers, their engineers, their I T professionals, a lot of us have a very strong background in this uh IT uh arenas. So you know when jimmie tells us that um uh a product is a good product or bad product, I tend to believe him because I know that he's got the expertise to back up his opinion.

You see so much stuff. Uh I think one of the places on the internet that I tend to avoid is redit uh everyone on opinion has uh sorry, everyone on redit has an opinion but with no basis right um and so you can't really trust the opinions that you get from redit users ah because you don't have to gage their expertise. Uh and so I think the mac user group community where you know i've known Jimmy for you know twenty five or thirty years now, um I trust his opinion um when he says this is a good product or a good value or Chris s expertise in the multimedia world because I know that we've got the experience to go along with that opinion uh and that's something that's often lacking on the internet.

And I will say roman, if if you never have at the A W U G U apple world towards David user group university IT was put together for leaders of user groups and we had a meeting yesterday and I think there were forty people present .

so they're definitely still .

out there of yeah I don't know .

around I don't .

know .

but there was more than gender is gone left I know that apple doesn't really .

don't yeah they used .

to do something.

You know when I was uh researching some topics and I looked at them, see what kind of support apple does for user groups. There used to be a website that user groups can uh use as a resource. And all the postings there were were outdated. There were or or IT hadn't been updated in a couple years that look right.

We we have members who entered up working at apple and they were told they could not enter face for us. They were afraid that something would get out.

Yeah, apple used to run to think called the user group connection. And if you, uh, registered your user group with, uh, the user group connection, they was sad. I think IT was a monthly mAiling that was a pretty good size box and IT would often have, uh, demo copies of software.

We have fires on products. There be a video tape in any of them, uh, that would have know a live demo of someone's new software. They provided user groups with a lot of resources that we were unable to share in our meetings, uh, that we could demo the software, we could play the video.

There was a lot of support from apple in the early days. Uh, we sort of A A grassroots uh, marketing for apple. You know there was a lot of resistance to apple through the early years because they were perceived as as being expensive for one.

Although I I think when you looked at the longest of the machine use machine, uh IT was really a much Better value than a uh PC that was cheaper uh because you ve got more done uh with them back and touch than you did the PC. And the P. C, you basically had to replace every time microsoft updated the Operating system.

None of the previous hardware was supported adequately. And so most users just ended up, uh, you know, windows ninety eight came out and they had windows ninety five IT was easier to just buy a whole new computer, uh, rather than trying to upgrade the O S. That you had, right? So I think windows users spend more time and money, uh, trying to keep their computer running instead of getting productivity from IT.

You know what you haven't mentioned is you haven't mentioned the lister, and I found that it's much easier. Just get on the map. In fact, most does anybody know about the rank problem having? I will say, if someone who's in the ticket of school, I had people wandering in all day long saying, what do I do about this and is a little problem and they just don't have that depth of experience to know how they handle IT.

But I said, instantaneous, almost answered. And the same thing with the user group where, you know, we start meetings with asking people, have you got to A A tech com? You've got something you wanted ask about um that that resource is so much more immediate than trying to search on the web for the answer.

If you think of IT really apple user groups from accuser groups where the original uh apple genius fires of the apple store opening in two thousand, one, yeah you goat is a store to get tech support from someone. So if you were having a problem with your computer, uh, there are many times that members would bring in their computer to one of the meetings and say, please help me I can't get this to install I can't get this to update um you know whatever kind of problem they were having and the the club members collectively would work together to help solve that users problem uh because you couldn't just make an appointment at the genius bar at the apple store like we do today. 没有 有 is the reason .

for the loss of people， the .

actually part .

of the user and .

should to their focus from the manager's to the iphone.

Oh yeah yeah. Could be 是 也没有。

but we answer .

those questions to this. More from I have something to the iphone even though we .

see where a mac user group, we really in apple user group.

yes.

we talk about and demonstrate the the connectivity of between your mac and your iphone and your ipad and your apple watch and um how the whole works together so seamlessly uh much Better than you get from any other platform .

when we first got our mac. I don't have any idea how my daughter found the bullet ton boards. I think he was in eighth grade and he lived on the bullet and boards, but you'd be talking to somebody on the bullet ton board while he was typing to someone else. And it's like, what are you doing, kid? Like either you're on the phone or you're on the computer, you and that was before we knew how to turn the phone off because she's be working on the bullet ton boards and the phone would bring and the Price would come .

up from the best. The other thing .

I really value about this is that we all have very different uses of the computers in our lives or we do different things just as part of our profession. So i've learned a lot of from other people about conflicting different fields in different uses of the computer. But I would never come across if I were just looking at the internet for information, is a cross fertilization of a look what you can do.

the romans benefit. We have a multimedia special nature group uh that Chris runs that focuses on uh graphics creation, video editing, uh podcasting, uh, autographed forms, photography .

that's of the .

the main user group.

And what we kind of more into opportunity to do something in debt, stead talk about IT. In general, we tend to go more induct.

We're the top of I don't want to take up any more of your time so I just uh want to say that um I appreciate you having me and also that um within this time of the internet, it's nice to see that you know that a sense of community .

t you .

go go as you .

get the look is pretty .

cold the .

yeah you .

yeah yeah well.

thank you very much. I really appreciate uh your time and love you in your stories and ah IT just a nice reminder that know while we sit there and look at our screens all the time, that there is a community out there that we should get in touch with. So thank you very much.

Times Better than this, but this is usually what our attendance at our meetings is on .

behalf of the macintosh community, how much we appreciate what you do at my 哼。 Continuing to have that voice um to have A A resource to draw on, to get the in depth reviews in the the long term feedback uh from a trusted source uh is invaluable still um even though now is is more web based than a publications journalism like mac world is still extremely valuable.

Thank you very much for .

you to birds come out and very much so, very much so. And we miss the conventions. We miss going to make world.

But I listen to, I listen to that doesn't .

for this episode the matal podcast thanks to everyone at main technic users group and thanks to you, the audience. Thank you for tuning in for more information on the main tech mug going to make tech dot org. There's a making the show notes for this episode because described to the magical podcast in a podger APP polifin on youtube at the mind podcast channel.

Are there any other podcast? P do have ready comments or questions. Send us the email at podcast and make that come or contact us to x that's at mac world or on threads that at mac world underscore H Q or on the make world facebook page. Join us in the next effective of the mal podcast as we talk about the latest the world of apple. See the next time.