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This is Ship It with Justin Garrison and Autumn Nash. If you like this show, you will love The Change Log. It's software news on Mondays, deep technical interviews on Wednesdays, and on Fridays, an awesome talk show for your weekend enjoyment. Find it by searching for The Change Log wherever you get your podcasts. Ship It is brought to you by Fly.io. Launch your app in five minutes or less. Learn how at Fly.io.

- Well, before the show, I'm here with Jasmine Cassis from Sentry. Jasmine, I know that session replay is one of those features that just, once you use it, it becomes the way. How widely adopted is session replay for Sentry? - I can't share specific numbers, but it is highly adopted.

in terms of if you look at the whole feature set of Sentry, replay is highly adopted. I think what's really important to us is Sentry supports over 100 languages and frameworks. It also means mobile. So I think it's important for us to cater to all sorts of developers. We can do that

by opening up replay from not just web, but going to mobile. I think that's the most important needle to move. - So I know one of the things that developers waste so much time on is reproducing some sort of user interface error or some sort of user flow error. And now there is session replay. To me, it really does seem like the killer feature for Sentry.

Absolutely. That's a sentiment shared by a lot of our customers. And we've even doubled down on that workflow because today, if you just get a link to an issue alert in Sentry, an issue alert, for example, in Slack or whatever integration that you use, as soon as you open that issue alert, we've embedded the replay video at the time of the error.

So then it just becomes part of the troubleshooting process. It's no longer an add on. It's just one of the steps that you do, just like you would review a stack trace. Our users would just also review the replay video. It's embedded right there on the issues page. OK, Sentry is always shipping, always helping developers ship with confidence. That's what they do.

Check out their launch week details in the link in the show notes. And of course, check out Session Replay's new edition mobile replay in the link in the show notes as well. And here's the best part. If you want to try Sentry, you can do so today with $100 off the team plan. Totally free for you to try out for you and your team. Use the code CHANGELOG. Go to Sentry.io. Again, Sentry.io.

Hello and welcome to Ship It, the podcast all about everything after Git Push. I'm your host, Justin Garrison, and with me as always and for the last time, Autumn Nash.

How's it going, Autumn? I'm so sad. It's a weird feeling. Like, I'm both excited because, like, I just feel like we're going to be up to even more ridiculous stuff. Because, like, now, like, I feel like we can just expand to just pure nerdy ridiculousness and it doesn't necessarily have to be

you know, like maintaining software. You know what I mean? I mean, I want to start by just saying thanks to Jared and Adam for letting us do this show. If this is your first time... They took a chance on us. If this is your first time listening to Ship It, like, hi, welcome. This is the last episode. That would be our look. Somebody would come on and then be like, oh...

This is great. And then never hear another episode because we switch podcasts. Yeah, but that's OK. So like, thank you, Jared. Thank you, Adam, for for letting Autumn and I kind of take this show in our own direction with our own sort of ideas and also just like they took a chance on us. We've never been podcast hopes.

host before so we had to learn and we kind of sucked well I was once and it was terrible so I don't want to we will live that doesn't that one doesn't count I love how you always tell on yourself like you're always down to be like I did it this one time and it was horrible but my first podcast I recorded I think was 2008 and I remember because I had no podcasting gear and I was in the

on the floor of my apartment with my laptop and I put a blanket over me to get better sound quality. And I was talking for like a half hour. And by the end of that, I felt like I was going to pass out because I was just like... This is why you're my favorite, like, nerd friend to do hoodrat stuff with. Because who does that, Justin? Like...

I almost gave myself heat stroke this one time. I tried to have a podcast. Who does that? But this show has been great. We've learned a lot through the whole process. And we've changed... Dude, they've put up with us through my low voice, your computer turning off, like Jared and Adam there. Just gems. Thank you for taking a chance on us. And Brian and Jason and our editors, producers, everyone that's helped us out. I'm going to miss Brian so much. He just...

Like the poor man has had to listen to us for so long and he just understands us. And like, dude, and Jason, like how, who am I going to ask about their mom? Like, I'm just like going to miss Jason and he's all like, whatever. And I'm just like, but we're like, but like, we're not going to talk to you every week. Yeah. So I'm sure they're going to have a great time with the new stuff. I'm really glad that ChangeLog has decided that they want to focus on, on the episodes that they were

started the whole changelog stuff for like that was okay but still be our friends changelog like don't forget about us I'm sure we'll have plenty of opportunity to talk to fellow people from before from ship it episodes and and changelog folks in the future which is which is good going forward yeah we

We should have Jared and Adam on Fork Around and find out. That'd be so fun. And so for anyone else, again, if this is your first episode listening, Autumn and I are starting a new podcast, which is discovering over the last month how much work that is. Especially to do it, I want to say in a, not the right way, but a sustainable way. Professional way.

Yeah, something we want to keep the audio quality up. We want to keep the guests and the topics like the quality is this isn't just a we're hanging out and talking. And we should not trust us to do audio like that. Like, look, we just like keeping it real. Like, OK, like that is a whole job. And so is editing like props to all the people that...

do all of the editing and audio and clips and website for their own podcast because we do not have time. Yeah. I don't have the time, I don't have the skill and it's just not something that I'm going to do. So we do. You have to know yourself, okay? And we know ourselves. Like,

Yeah. It'll be the most narrow, spicy, halfway. Like at some point, like 40 minutes in, you just kind of like the rest of it's just all staticky and what happened? Half a website. The website will be Justin's broken arm picture.

Yeah. So we want to make this sustainable. So if you haven't already subscribed to Fork Around and Find Out, fafo.fm is the website. If you don't want the acronym, we have forkaroundandfindout.fm. You can go there too. They go to the same place. I love the name so much. Like I was really like worried about picking a name because like to me, picking names is like so hard. Like I...

You should have seen me trying to name my children, okay? I had a whole moment. It's such a serious endeavor. Like, this is so permanent. Yes! It's like our, like, podcast baby, you know? Just like, we have to get it right. And I was like, what, like, explains, like, the pure...

It's ridiculous, chaotic, but nerdy and informative. And I feel like this is perfect. Like it just matches us and like the dad jokes and shade and the like ridiculousness that I bring. Like you bring the dad jokes and shade. I bring the ridiculousness and slight shade. Just a little bit. Yeah. So like naming things...

is not hard. Naming things that are identifiable and mean the same thing to a lot of people is extremely difficult, especially things that like we need to find websites and social media handles and what wasn't taken. Well, not just that, but like trying to find something that relates to SRE, DevOps, but still engineering. Like I think it was...

I don't know. You would think that there's a lot of related names over platform engineering, SRE, DevOps, and a bunch of other things, but to just be like identifiable, I don't like it, but also development and,

The language and industry changes so much, right? Like a software developer is like basically the same thing has been for a long time. But I remember one of the title options was the sysadmin show. And you're like, what the hell is this? Like, why would we call it the sysadmin show? I'm like, well, like that kind of encompasses everything. You're like, but it doesn't. I'm like, yeah, it's true. It doesn't.

It's weird because I think just the way infrastructure and things have been on such a weird... In the time I've worked in tech, which is not as long as you, it's been you were doing sysadmin stuff. But then it was when I first started SRE, DevOps, platform engineer. There's so many different ways in each company.

has different tiers of how much they want to pay people. So they create all these different names. It's like when you have like a data scientist, a business intelligence engineer and an applied scientist, you know what I mean? Like there's so many different factions that they break down a lot of these jobs, you know? So it's like trying to find something. And I mean, sometimes being a software development engineer or a software engineer is very different than a DevOps engineer. And sometimes they do the same exact things. Our industry is so...

It varies so much by job to job, you know? Yeah. And, and for, for ground to find out, like we, we want to cover all of those things. And it was hard because it's just like, this isn't the SRE show. This isn't the cloud show. This isn't a database show. This is like, yeah, no, it's, it's managing and running anything software in general. Just finding our audience too. Like we do want to stay very close to what we did at ship it, but also expand, which is like hard to make sure you're still hitting a certain audience. Yeah. Yeah.

One of the things I really enjoyed that I learned through doing Ship It was like trying to boil down how we wanted to start conversations was what is it that we want to bring someone into that we think you do interesting things or you have an interesting story.

experience or space that you work in. And we settled on what software are you responsible for? And that was kind of the thing that as soon as we could tell someone that they could say, okay, I get where we would go with that topic. And I think that was like the, just the, a really good learning experience to be able to get it to that point of saying, Hey, we're going to start with this question and the rest is just conversation. And the rest is wherever we want to go, whatever we think is interesting in your answers, we're going to kind of dive into it a little deeper.

And that was a lot of fun. I think for, for credit find out, we're going to do a similar thing. We're going to kind of start in that same vein of like, what is it like to run, maintain software? But also we can have a little more flexibility on, on not just the get push side of things, right? Like the, the things outside of gets the things outside of code, because there's a lot of business things. There's a lot of process things. There's a lot of culture things that have to also apply to how you run your software. And this isn't a technical problem.

And the more that AI is forced into all these things, the processes and the business and having the understanding of all that and still how to maintain software is going to become more and more important. Yeah. Also, I think something that if you feel like you've learned it, but I feel like the people are such an interesting, I don't know if it's a side effect or whatever, but like that's some of the most interesting people that do these type of jobs. And it matters a lot to the actual technical side.

And I think it's really cool that we've been able to marry cool people, but also very technical. Like there were some shows that I was almost worried that we got too technical in the weeds and people still were really receptive. So that makes me really happy.

Yeah, for sure. Actually, that's what we want to talk about today. We don't have a guest for today. We don't actually have news or a game. We wanted to do a little bit of a retro on Ship It for the last year because this is not only the last episode of the year, it's the last episode for whenever, if Change Dog ever starts it again. This is the last episode with myself and Autumn. And so, Autumn, what was one of your favorite topics that we discussed? I think one of my favorites will always be the space episode just because I love space. And the

That is such...

an amazing use case to be able to work in the requirements that space requires right like you you can't update it all the time you have to know that you can do that stuff remotely you have to pick like an LTS and you know different versions that are going to live for a very long time like I just thought that was just super interesting I'm almost sad that it was when we first started because I feel like I almost wished I was better at it you know that one I loved it because the

The fact that it was a completely different foreign environment for anyone that doesn't deal with that. But also, it's just a server that's falling around the earth. Like there's nothing special about that. But it's wild. It's just floating out there, you know? Yeah.

And it's just Ubuntu, right? Like, it's just, oh, well, yeah, we SSH in. I'm like, wait, what? Like, hold on. How long can you stay on it? It was like, oh, I forget how long it was. But it was like every, you know, hour or something, you get like a four minute window to like debug something. I'm like, that's crazy. Like, it's just a server. See, like, I think in tech...

We solve hard problems, but sometimes they're just hard and they're not fun. You know, that is a hard problem that has very strict requirements and restraints and constraints. But

It's so interesting that it would make to me like my very neural space. He brings so down to solve those problems because it's a fricking computer in space, right? Like that is so much fun. Just the fact that you have the constraints of these windows, you have to have it run for a long time. What are you, what's your backup plan if it doesn't work? That's so interesting. And then the fact that they started using it for like gas companies and not just space and just different ways that like they took this software and

and start using it to solve other problems. Like I find that so interesting. I will say my other favorite episodes were our retro episodes. I was gonna say, that was what I was thinking.

for my favorite kind of topics was just looking back on things that aren't even that old, right? Like some of them we had from, you know, in the 90s, like we were talking to, you know, about like WebMD was like late 90s, early 2000s, but like Mandy was early 2000s. But it was so different though. Like just the fact that they were like thinking about

what of like the context of what they thought WebMD was then verse like and that was right when that WebMD like RTO video and you're just like bro they have fallen you know like and like Yahoo think about how big Yahoo was Yahoo was the place to be that was everybody's mail like that was my first I think Yahoo and Hotmail were my first emails you know and now nobody uses that it's just crazy like I feel like a

A lot of times in history, just in general, they say like you need to know history to be able to make a good future. And that is so true in tech because it's really hard to make things that are sustainable and not just cool for a minute, you know. And even when things get really big and they are monsters and they seem like nothing will ever, you know, take them down. And then you're just like, well, these huge companies used to be like what everybody was betting on before the Google and the Amazon, you know.

Yeah. And some of that also gives me hope for what the future will look like, where when we see

the centralization of a lot of these things, like, you know, the downfall of Twitter and in spinning out into new things, I'm like, hey, like people can own some of this again. This doesn't mean like just because Twitter was such a dominant force throughout the 20 teens and part of like the beginning of 2020s doesn't mean it's going to live forever. And even like now looking at forward to 2025, like Google was declared a monopoly by the courts and they're going to be broken up in some way, shape or form, whether that means Chrome or

or advertising, but whatever that means, like things change over time and nothing is permanent. And just knowing how fast some of those things can change kind of gives me hope to say like, oh, it doesn't always have to be bad if we can work towards something that we think is better. Which is odd because that stuff like that used to give me like, I won't say anxiety, but like a little bit of like, you know, you are betting on whatever company you work on as much as they're betting on you, you know? And it's,

it used to freak me out the way that like tech would go through these cycles. But now it's like, you know, when like they have a wildfire in California and that's a bad thing, but it also is like a rebirth of the soil and kind of like what nature needs to do its thing. And tech has been so weird and sad lately. Like it's like the 70s

sad place that I'm just like, it's almost like I can't wait for the fire to take out whatever sucks, you know, and like the rebirth of the new startups, the new big companies and like what these new laws, because think about it. Most of tech, like the big booms of tech, they have not really had the laws and monopolies that you need to kind of like a lot of our laws haven't been made for tech.

technology and the era that we live in, right? Like they're trying to get rid of TikTok and do all this when our senators don't even know what TikTok and algorithm is, you know? So it's like, we're kind of in this place where the first kind of boom was during like, just, oh, this is new and now we want to use it more. But people weren't really using tech the same way that we are when they, in like 2008, right? Like now it's an everything and it's kind of in our face that we have to change. Yeah.

while having this and everything and kind of, you know, living in this new world that we created. So like what happens now? Like that's exciting in a way. Yeah. And it's just the notion of in the early 2000s, you went to the internet, right? Like you, you weren't always connected. And then iPhone and smartphones kind of changed all that, where if you want to clear your mind or do something, you have to like

put your phone away and like I have to I have to no longer be on the internet I have to choose to not be on the internet everything I think there was a bill the other day and it was saying in a state like how they needed to give people access to phones and

And why you should help bills for poor people to get phones because everything requires having a phone now. Yeah. And a phone number is, I mean, to some degree, like the new email. I mean, I guess it always kind of was, but what you could do with that phone number, right? Like it's not just a, I'm going to call you. No one picks up the phone anymore. It's a, I have to be able to reach this website, fill out this form, text this thing, whatever. Like that's the bar now. Think about it. If you have no home and no cell phone, how do you get...

mail how do you get um what do you call it the multi-factor authentication you know what i mean like even to fill out a lot of forms like we're trying to partner with the recovery cafe because to fill out a lot of forms that do help people who are unhoused and who need it cool those things exist but they don't even have access to them they don't know how to use it and like they need like so much more than they have access to to actually utilize the things that are for them so

I think the first time with tech, like when we talked to people for the retro like shows, it was something cool that they kind of stumbled on. They enjoyed it. And then they, it became like this thing, you know, like when we talked even with Pete, right. About like getting into like early internet and all these things. And it was very like a niche of like things, but now there's no niche. Like it is everything tech has encompassed everything. It's like the second revolution of tech, um,

And at first it was like sad. And now it's kind of like hopeful that maybe this means we get to go somewhere cool after all this. What was a topic or a guest or a show that we did that surprised you? You didn't say what your favorite episode was. I was saying the retro ones were my favorites. Like looking back on this. What was your like second one? I would love to get more.

more unique retro experiences from people that were things like, you know, Pete doing ISP stuff early on and

even the mainframe discussions we've had, all of those things. The Walmart one was really interesting too. Yeah, yeah. The cycles keep repeating themselves. And if we just apply the pattern with the new technologies we have for next year, it's probably going to emerge in a similar way. Isn't that crazy? It's the same, a different source of compute power. And you know what I mean? It's like they all keep repeating themselves. Okay, but what's your dream retro episode?

My dream, Rachel? Mine would be a video game. Like if like, let's go talk to the people that created Atari and how they like had to, whatever they had to do to like, you know, that would be so cool. Like, how is it different? I mean, those are so hardware specific, right? Like, cause Atari and Pong and all this stuff, like I was, is the book about Steve Wozniak. Or what about the first versions of like Nintendo 64? And when we first got to like the internet version?

versus like Fortnite now. Because remember we were talking about Fortnite's one of the only things you can take off the internet for six hours. And people, like remember, there's retail studies that if something takes two and a half seconds longer, people will get disinterested. But Fortnite can take itself offline for six hours and kids are over there waiting and biting their nails. It's wild.

And they make so much money. This year, I did reach out to a couple of video game companies. I reached out to Niantic for Pokemon Go and... Oh, that would be so cool. What's the other... Who made the original Sony? Because, like, can we just talk? The Game Boy one was so much cooler. The Sony... The handheld? The Game Boy, yeah. Yeah.

Like the first Pokemon. Oh, the first Pokemon on the Game Boy. Yeah, for Nintendo. They were so good. They're so much better than the ones now. My son was like remaking the Pokemon first ones. Like he made it like exactly like the Game Boys were his like own little game. And I was like, this is so much cooler than the ones they have now.

So if anyone runs software at a video game company or infrastructure video company and you're allowed to talk about it, because that's always one of those tricky things where the video game industry is kind of like the movie industry and they just don't want to talk about it a lot of times. I want to talk to people from Baldur's Gate.

Yeah. So I actually was trolling through, there's a conference here that's usually in California for like the special effects and gaming industry. We have PAX Northwest here. Yeah. So I was looking for like speakers for some of those and like saying, hey, like who would want to come on the show maybe? So I'm still looking at it, but if anyone has a guest or if you do it yourself and would like to be on the new show, send us an email because we would love to. Even if you're talking about games you did in the past, because there is a lot of

There is a lot of turnover in the game development world. So even if it's a game that you worked on years ago, it would still be really interesting to figure out

Because it's different than what we both do, you know, but still similar enough. It would be really interesting. I think one of my favorite, I would love to have someone from Netflix that started at the streaming point, right? Like when they switched from, we now do streaming versus only DVDs because I was a DVD subscriber for such a long time. And now most of it is streaming based. And it's like they had to figure a lot out in that time.

that time frame of what does this look like and they didn't have their own CDN and they didn't have all that stuff up front so I'm kind of curious like what that story would look like I think that would be also really interesting where video games got interesting you know when you start streaming Call of Duty and all that cool stuff instead of getting discs to load yeah and even the the streaming Xbox the Game Pass and the

if anyone worked on a failed what was the failed Google the thing they shut down that was a gaming platform I think Amazon's was Luna Luna yeah there's Game Pass there's Luna NVIDIA has one I'd also love to talk to someone from Minecraft like mostly because we get street cred with our children but also because the amount of hours I've

put into Minecraft. But also it has three different platforms if you think about it, right? So you've got multiple platforms, like you've got the Java edition, you have the mobile edition, and then they got acquired and they've tried different ways to try to melt it all together. So I think that would be super interesting. There was a really good changelog podcast interview with some of the folks that are on Minecraft, specifically in the

It was the new add-ons or mods or whatever it was called that work on Bedrock. That was a really fascinating episode. I'll have to go check it out. Because, yeah, that was probably over summer, I think. But I really enjoyed that one just because of the difficulties of like, yeah, this is a multi-platform thing that we have to like take in basically user code, but it's like...

You can't do anything and everything, but I think the subset of JavaScript that they compile into the game to make it configurable to let people do add-ons on Bedrock, on Java, on all that stuff. It was really cool.

What's up, friends? I'm here in the breaks with David Hsu, founder and CEO at Retool. If you didn't know, Retool is the fastest way to build internal software. So, David, we're here to talk about Retool. I love Retool. You know that. I've been a fan of yours for years, but I'm on the outside and you're clearly on the inside, right? You're on the inside, right? I think so. Yeah, I'd say so. Okay, cool.

So given that you're on the inside and I'm not on the inside, who is using Retool and why are they using Retool? Yeah. So the primary reason someone uses Retool is typically they are a backend engineer who's looking to build some sort of internal tool and it involves the frontend.

And backend engineers typically don't care too much for the frontend. They might not know React, Redux all that well, and they say, "Hey, I just want a simple button, simple form on top of my database or API. Why is it so hard?" And so that's kind of the core concept behind Retool is frontend web development has gotten so difficult in the

in the past 5, 10, 20 years. It's so complicated today. Put together a simple form with a submit button, have that submit to an API. You have to worry, for example, about, oh, you know, when you press the submit button, you got to bounce it or you got to disable it when it's, you know, is fetching is true.

And then when it comes back, you got to enable the button to get, or there's an error, you got to display the error message. There's so much crap now with building a simple form like that. And Retool takes that all away. And so really, I think the core reason why someone would use Retool is they just don't want to build any more internal tools. They want to save some time. Yeah, clearly the front end has gotten complex. No doubt about that.

I think even front-enders would agree with that sentiment. And then you have back-end folks that already have access to everything, API keys, production database, servers, whatever. But then to just stand up retool, to me, seems like the next real easy button because you can just remove the entire front-end layer complexity. You're not trying to take it away. You're just trying to augment it. You're trying to give developers a

given interface, that's Retool, build out your own admin, your own view to a Google Sheet or to the production database, all inside Retool. Let Retool be the front end to the already existing backend.

Is that about right? Yeah, that is exactly right. The way we think about it is we want to abstract away things that a developer should not need to focus on, such that the developer can focus on what is truly specific or unique to their business. And so the vision of what we want to build is something like an AWS, actually, where I think AWS really fundamentally transformed the infrastructure layers.

Back in the day, developers spent all their time thinking about how do I go rack servers? How do I go manage cooling, manage power supplies? How do I upgrade my database without it going down? How do I change out the hard drive while still being online? All these problems. And they're not problems anymore because nowadays when you want to upgrade your database, just go to RDS, press a few buttons. And so what AWS did to the infrastructure layer is what we want to do to the application layer specifically on the front end today.

And for me, that's pretty exciting because as a developer myself, I'm not really honestly that interested, for example, in managing infrastructure in a nuts and bolts way. Now, I would much rather be like, hey, you know, I want S3 bucket. Boom, there's an S3 bucket. I want a database. Boom, there's a database. And similarly, on the front end or in the application layer, there is so much crap people have to do today when it comes to building a simple CRUD application.

It's like, you know, you probably have to install 10, 15, maybe even 20 different libraries. You probably don't know what most of the libraries do. It's really complicated to load a simple form. You know, you're probably downloading almost like a megabyte or two of JavaScript. It's so much crap to build a simple form. And so that's kind of the idea behind Retool is could it be a lot simpler? Could we just make it so much faster?

Could you go from nothing to a form on top of your database or API in two minutes? We think so. Yeah, I think so too. So listeners, Retool is built for scale. It's built for enterprise. It's built for everyone. And Retool is built for developers. That's you. You can self-host it. You can run in the cloud. A custom SSO, audit log, SOC 2, Type 2, professional services. Starting with Retool is simple, fast, and easy.

And of course, it's free if you want to try it right now. So go to retool.com slash changelog. That's R-E-T-O-O-L dot com slash changelog.

Okay, so what's your next question? Well, we talked a little bit about what episodes surprised you or what topics surprised you. Okay, but what was like the really good surprise? Like I'm trying to think, like I felt like there were some that were like wild. I think the .NET that it does like its own, as a recent one from our actual last week episode, the fact that it does multiple runtimes and it knows when to do the mobile and when to do like different runtimes and how to be efficient, that like coming and working

Just seeing the experience I have in runtime, which isn't even as much as most people, like the people that have been doing it for 40 years, I don't know. But it is so complicated to create runtimes that run on different things and to have one be able to switch back and forth and know what it needs is just phenomenal.

I think also like going back to the space episode, like just learning about the constraints of that. Oh, the Walmart one, how they had servers in every Walmart. And that's a, that's like a common thing now where like every target has a Kubernetes cluster. Every Chick-fil-A has a Kubernetes cluster, all of these edge locations. But are they ran locally in like each target or is it ran? Oh, really? Yeah. Also, I love that Kubernetes in target. Like, I feel like it's like, I love the Kubernetes community and then I

I love Target and I'm just excited that those two things have some sort of relation. But one person or one team is managing it, right? Like it's not like, so isn't that like a little bit more complicated than having physical servers in each store? What do you mean? Because I mean, like if something breaks, somebody has to go to that store.

Yeah. I mean, you have redundancy, some redundancy, right? It's like, there's a few, a few servers in each place that you have some overheads that like something can break and stay broken for a little while that you're, you're still okay. I just feel like that would stress me out knowing that I have to like call someone and send them to Montana or somebody like over here or like. I mean, a lot of the stores will have like, you'll just ship a hot, like a pre-imaged machine. Just go plug this in. Right. It's just like, oh, you can have hands on the ground that do the, do the thing. Um,

I remember the episode with David about raw code was fascinating. His architecture for every, um,

every database column was a microservice. I just kept thinking about that over and over again. I'm just like, wait a minute. How, how, why and how does this work? Talking to David about anything is fascinating. Yeah, that one was fun. Oh man, the, I'm just looking at this year of episodes. There's so many amazing people we got to talk to. Oh, Tim and his like hot girl, like. The hot girl problem? Yeah, the hot shards? Yeah. Okay, but databases sharding and,

online dating who would have thought like Tim is always good for like a crazy surprise and then the way that man tells stories let me tell you he just tells stories in the most beautifully illustrated way and you're just like okay like I'm so ready like tell me all the things

I had fun with the like shell based episodes with Dave Eddy about bash and the new shell folks that came on. That was really fun to me. I am planning on switching to new shell. I thought that was really interesting. I need to actually use that. Oh, can we just talk about tar, but like tars as like a bedtime story. Like if that doesn't tell you how like being a nerd and then becoming a parent like affects you, like that was just beautiful. Like,

Who can make that into a bedtime rhyme? Do you know how hard it is to make things rhyme? Yeah. Also, Hazel gets best dressed ever because we usually just are in like sweatshirt and a t-shirt. And she rolled up like a fairy godmother of like Kubernetes and infrastructure. And it was great. Man, I can't even like, there's so many cool things that we...

People we talked to in topics we got to Gina from the Octoprint project with I was I was super surprised. How does she maintain all that by herself? And how much of that was automated? And it was so cool seeing the tool. But she did all of those iterations and like she does that release by herself. And you know how hard it is to release things? Oh, my goodness. Like, oh, and Veronica. Veronica is badass. I don't know if you can say that on like a podcast, but like she just.

releasing Kubernetes and being on that whole team and all the things she does plus her day job like fire oh Lily Lily amazing me and Lily are besties and did you know she does art and she does like all of the amazing platform engineering she's brilliant dude brilliant like brilliant on multiple levels like when she was on her show I thought she was cool and then I got to know her and I was like how can one person just possess all these skills in one body like

like fire. We've met the coolest people and got to talk about the coolest things. And I'm just like, how do we even top this for a new show? And that's one of the, like, I'm very excited about just continuing on and expanding that a little bit, right? Like is Anita from Meta, right? The millions of servers talking about their, like they build this whole platform from scratch. I'm like, that is such a cool use case. But then also like, there's a lot of

companies in places and apps you've never heard of that have interesting challenges that have the constraints, as we mentioned before, like from space, like the constraints are what make the problem interesting most of the time. Yes, because sometimes they're just hard problems and they just suck because they're just hard and they're not fun. When you have an interesting problem that gets your focus is my favorite.

They're delicious. When you're like, okay, you have to do this, but you have no internet access. And you're like, oh, like, well, now what? And you're like, wait, hmm. Also, Anita is a boss. Like, I am, like, already going to, like,

show up to her skill talk next year. And it's like, I'm waiting four months just to see her talk because the stuff that she like talks about, you're just like, like your brain hurts a little bit because it's so far into like the system D Linux world, you know? Also like, how do we like just convince them to give us a sweatshirt? I really want one of those sweatshirts. You just want the tux inside the hood? Yes, they're so cool. Yeah, it's going to be great. Also, half of our guest owners are going to be at skills too.

I feel like we need another scale episode because it's like going to be the like ship it Kubernetes Linux tech ridiculous personality convention of people because like everybody is going to scale this year like crazy.

I just looked and I was like, besties, besties. So much fun. We are going to do so much hood rats. So excited. Yeah, I am very excited for scale next year. If you haven't signed up yet, I think the tickets are available now, I think. Y'all better get on it because those are some cheap tickets. Yeah. March in Pasadena. If you're a student, they're 50% off. Yeah.

Yeah, they're working on the schedule right now. I think by the time this episode comes out, there might be a little more out there, but yeah, it's going to be a good one. I know I'm traveling to a couple of places, but again, come

come over to Fork Around and Find Out. We'll have all the updates on where we're going to be physically if we want to meet. And hopefully, the goal with Fork Around and Find Out is, again, it's going to be sustainable, but also because it's just Autumn and me doing a show, we don't have a network behind us. We don't have...

other funds or whatever, we have to get the sponsors. We have to get those things in place. But also that might give us some freedom in like, oh, we both want to go to this conference or we both are local to this thing. And so we can come meet up with people, do some in-person podcasting a little bit more possibly if that works out. I really hope we do though, because I feel like

When I started in tech, I was a military spouse and I had really young kids, you know, and learning to build hackathons around how to making them accessible to other people. Like our first hackathon, we did some virtually and had like a, you know, like a kind of code along. And then our second hackathon was like, we grew it and made it like a lot virtually. So that way it was like in person at Microsoft, but we also had like a ton of people online and like students and everything. And I think that, yeah,

It's awesome to do in-person podcasts because not only is it a different type of energy, like I thought like for one, our in-person stuff was hilarious and just getting to meet all these people. But like sometimes people don't have the same access to these things as we do, you know? And I mean, like sometimes people might not even know what skill is. Like, so I just think that we get to really like...

I can't imagine going to half the conferences that you go to, like, you know, and you've been in tech longer than me and you go to places I don't go. And I'm always super excited to hear where you're going next. And I think it's like sharing that experience until people get to the level where they're able to, you know.

Yeah. And I think that a generation of people in tech now are new to tech in the last five to maybe 10 years, like they missed out on meetups and on just the things that I remember doing in the early 2000s was like, oh, they have some free pizza.

And someone's going to like talk about some technology or an outage or whatever. And those were the places that I met a lot of people. And I'm not necessarily like close to the Los Angeles tech scene anymore because I've been working remote for so long, but it was my way into a lot of places, my foot in the door and just meeting a lot of people and knowing what they were doing was because I bumped into them at one of those meetups and just like, Oh,

I'm going to go once a month or whatever. I'm just gonna go drive somewhere and, and find something. And now there's none of them, at least not in, not where I'm at.

I am.

It makes it like where you can download something or meet somebody online, which, you know, in a way is kind of full circle because people were at one point meeting each other in chat rooms. And we were talking about that on the AOL thing, you know, and like RSS feeds. So it's like creating new ways to make tech accessible in this new kind of, I guess, era.

Yeah. And we don't have plans to do like a Slack channel or a Zulip or anything like that for... I don't think we need it. Blue Sky. Everybody knows we're there. We're on Blue Sky. Where else are we? I'm on Instagram. I think it's hard to have a conversation on Blue Sky. Like that is definitely...

Like, I mean, you don't really have it in Slack necessarily either. Say that to the hell threads. Okay. Like people will find a way, like there are bean filters on there. Okay. Like we can figure it out. Also, I've had whole conversations about the most random things like Hozier albums and children and craziness, 3D printing. I don't necessarily want to have another login for another place. And I just like, I'm so, uh,

burnt out on all of these like tiny communities. And I don't, I have like a, you know, a couple dozen discords that I never check. Oh yeah, I never check my discords. But I also think this goes back to finding like the public community

I don't know, like it's not a meetup, but it's an accessible way. Like what if you're new in tech and you might not get to meet, I don't know, some of the cool people that we meet on here. You know what I mean? So it's like when we get to have those big conversations in public, it's so accessible for someone else to join or someone to read it. Like before I was in tech, I learned so much by like auditing.

osmosis of reading Twitter threads. Yeah. That's like Twitter was that place that felt magical that you could reach out to anyone and you could see two celebrities talking. Yeah. And you're just like, oh, what? But not just that, but you're

it was like a way to trick my very neuro spicy brain into learning, but learning in a social manner. You know, I learned so much about infrastructure and coding and technology just because I was watching two really smart people have a conversation. It is like watching two engineers at work that are more senior than you have like a technical debate, but in your phone. And I can do that while my kids are playing. And I think that is just

magical and beautiful. The fact that you have access to that knowledge. And I hope that's what we can share with people on Blue Sky is like having cool conversations, whether it be about technology or not, but just giving people access to people that they might not be able to talk to or have these conversations with. And at the same time, hopefully owning and being responsible for some of that infrastructure and like the responsibility of like, you can use Blue Sky, but also you can

own your piece of it. I'm still running a PDS at home. I'm planning on moving my main account over the holiday break to my personal PDS that's literally running at my house and be able to migrate all of my data and have it hosted there and just see what that's like and see the responsibility of it. And so far it's been running. I still have some quirks and I need to figure out some things. But there's a lot of

a lot of promise in some of these new technologies. I actually just saw a podcast interview with, what's his name? The person who started Black Sky, the Black Sky labeler on Blue Sky that I want to, I want to have them on the show. I was like, that's great because I love seeing how you can run public software and infrastructure as well.

start as a hobby as a public good for a larger community in a way that's not come join my discord it's a hey we can all join this thing together that you're already here you're already you're already active in this space uh how would that look if you just got a new filter or some way to peer inside that community a little easier i also think this is like remember how we were talking about how a lot of the wonderful people that we met got jobs through like i think a

was his name, David, the one that was like working at Radio Shack or how Rich was doing like his own server stuff and ended up getting a job.

And then it kind of got to like open source contributing to open source was how people were getting jobs, you know, and then open source has been in kind of a weird place. But now like, hey, like getting into blue sky, maintaining infrastructure on Hackaderm, look at Hazel's career, look at like different like, you know what I mean? Like it's a new way for people to connect with people. But also being able to go run your own PDS with like blue sky is also a great learning experience.

Yeah, I constantly everyone comes up to me like, how do I get in the industry? I can't get experience and I can't put it on my resume. I'm like, you know how many open source projects run infrastructure and how many communities run infrastructure that you can get experience. You don't get paid for it, but you gain experience. But this is also where you don't have to deal with the judgy like gatekeeping people of some open source projects because you're running your own.

own social media, you know? So it's also something to say, hey, I did this. Now can I contribute to open source project or, you know, just however, but there are new ways. Like some people in tech are very introverted. Maybe they don't want to have to go and

and like talk to humans on their first project this can give them that confidence and then go approach someone in open source but i think it's just a great learning opportunity and it gives you that dopamine hit of it being something cool that you get to use but also experimental you know and i think that like you know sometimes when you can run into constant bugs and frustrating things you need that like fun part of it to kind of motivate you through it yeah

I know a lot of people that got experience just doing home labs. And I feel like being able to home lab some social media is kind of the next stage for a lot of people. Like, oh, I can do this at my house with an old laptop and then I can show people I did it.

I could show people like they actually use it and consume it and say like, oh, this is something that is available a lot of times. And even when you have outages, how do you communicate that? Because those are all things that you have to do at work and you have to do those things for a job if you're running the infrastructure and being able to do that in like a voluntary way of saying like, oh, I'm interested in this thing. Let's see how it works. Oh, do I have a status page? It's also a buy-in to learn those skills. How many people just stumbled on something because they thought something else was cool and they had to learn some skills to do that, you know?

So, Autumn started, as the very end of the show, Autumn started, you started your new job at Smikersofts. And so I've sent her a... Also, like Justin is like the sweetest friend. Okay. Like he really is. He's like, I know we do a podcast together, but he's like my bestie that I harass all the time. And then he sends me like a bunch of like homework. Like he's the sweetest, kindest friend.

And I'm so glad that we never knew each other before this podcast. Yes, we did. We were on the yelling channel. We were in a Slack channel. He also forgets knowing you half the time. No, just joking. We were in a shared Slack channel, a channel that I started at Amazon. Take a screenshot. We had to get a picture. That's your address on it. You don't want that out there. Justin Smart, don't listen to me. I ain't posting your address on my channel.

So I started at Microsoft. She's a she's a PM for Linux security. And I want to send an end of ship it gift and an early Christmas gift. And so she's opening this present right now. You have to describe what's in the box. Well, first, let's describe the box. The box looks like a serial killer sent me a package.

It's just an Amazon box. Retaped. It's got like big writing that says do not open until it's all easy. I was like, whoa, whoa. Yeah, I wanted to make sure that we could do this live on the air. So this is a fun going away present. Also, Justin comes with multiple gifts. One is his wife because she's the coolest. Two, he just sends you random stuff in the mail and he is like a thoughtful gift giver. Also, he puts up with me.

Also, he's a really great uncle who does stitch like voices for your kids. But like, don't introduce him to your kids because your kids will think he's cooler than you. It's OK, because my kids don't think I'm cool. So it's fine. My kids think you are the coolest thing ever. And it's like, I'm just really bitter about it. Like they go to California to visit their dad and they try to hang out with you. And I'm like, he is my friend. Well, they're coming to scale. So we're gonna have a good time. They're so excited about it. But just to see you. Oh, this is so cool. OK.

Do you know that? Open that top one. You are so ridiculous. Why did you send me Windows 7? This is why I was excited because I was like, it's either going to be just like straight ridiculousness or like something that's going to freak me out because he was like, I won't tell you what's in the box. And I was like, oh, no. Who is this? This is Bill Gates. Yes, that's Bill Gates. Bill Gates was this young at some point? Like...

So some people are going to be familiar with this. I love this. Bill Gates did a shoot for Teen Magazine back in the 80s. I think it was 83. And it's a very like... Should I be scared what this puzzle is? Like, what is it? Windows puzzle? Yeah. Okay. So...

I cannot. Even though Bill Gates isn't in charge of Microsoft anymore, the photo shoot is so iconic that I framed a picture and we said it's an autopsy because Bill Gates is somewhere. What is this? The rest of it is unhinged Windows 7 stuff. Sorry.

When did Windows 7 launch? How did you find this stuff? Windows 7 launched July of 2009. Back in 2009, they were looking for influencers that they could have Windows 7 launch parties for.

And so I was one of the influencers. So you mean that we've been in the influencer, like, realm since before Instagram and TikTok? Yeah, I don't remember. I had a blog. Oh, were you like a cute little Instagram, like, influencer, but before Instagram? Yeah, before social media, I was an uber nerd. You were like, you were famous out here and you didn't even tell me. Yeah.

So in that box, there are it's Windows. So in Windows 7 came with like these crazy unhinged wallpapers that they had different artists design. And then they they took those pictures and they made different things. So one of the puzzles is that there's a poster there that shows all the backgrounds. There's playing cards that have.

The background's on them. This is the most perfect nerdy thing I have ever received in my entire life. Like, this is the most vintage... Like, I just want you to know that, like, I'm keeping this photo of Bill Gates looking like he is, like, a teen, like, model forever. Like, I just... It is...

does this Justin this is like the Zay show like album with computers so you also there's also a copy of Windows 7 Ultimate signed by Steve Ballmer and

So that was like the signature edition. Yeah, there you go. It's a signature edition of Windows 7 Ultimate. Y'all, in the wrapper though. In the wrapper. And so I think I used it at one point. Does that mean you just didn't? No, I installed it at one point. The key's used. Did you just like keep it all in here? Like, I'm not using your stuff. I'm just an influencer now. I kept all of that swag from the launch party. I forget what else they had. I gave some of the things. I actually had like, they sent you the swag and then they just said, go host it for your friends. And I'm like, this is the weirdest thing that I'm going to invite some people over. You were like a legit little teen

So I think I had two co-workers come. Justin was like the epitome of one of those... He was like a Sheen model before they were Sheen models, but for nerds. Like, look at this. Look at the posters. Yeah, it's like a poster of posters. It's the weirdest thing, but it's... I'm going to take so many ridiculous photos in front of this poster. Like, y'all are not ready. Like...

We're about to have the most unhinged blue sky posts. It's going to be great. Yeah, so I didn't even realize that this was 15 years ago when Windows 7 came out. And I've had that stuff. And I'm just like, oh, you're starting at Microsoft. I don't even have to make old people jokes about you anymore. You just be making them about yourself. It's great. Yeah. So...

Congrats on the new job and Merry Christmas. I can't wait. Where am I going to put the picture of Bill Gates? On your desk. Every time you send something and it's from you, my children assume that you're in a box. It's me in there? Yeah. And I'm just like, Mr. Justin,

is not in the box. Well, this gave them some playing cards to play with. They can play war or something. I don't know. I'm putting that stuff up where nobody can touch it. It is a classic. I don't know if the cards are opened. I don't remember. I don't think I ever did the puzzle. It's a classic, Justin. Yeah, so there you go. You can carry out the card. Also, we need to figure out what ridiculous shirts we're getting our kids for scale. Oh, yeah. Well, we need to have some fork run and find out shirts. Just have them run around with little fork shirts. It'll be great.

It will be good. So thank you everyone for listening to the show. Thank you everyone for listening to us this past year. If you have not subscribed to Fork Around and Find Outs, then please do. We'd love to hear from you. We were trying to get that just going because it's fun to start it from scratch. It's also terrifying to start it from scratch. So you can leave us a review or share it or do something that like boosts algorithms. Y'all, we invested a bunch of money into this new venture.

Because we can't stop like doing nerd talk with our friends, but like also starting your own business is so scary.

Yeah, it's a lot of work and we appreciate everyone that is here just listening and who has given us feedback over the years. We've taken a lot of that hopefully going forward. Oh my God, we love y'all's emails and comments and blue skies like it makes my day. Yeah, it has been great learning experience and we just love everyone that has given back to the show because it's made it better. So thank you everyone. Have a good holiday. Happy New Year. And hopefully we will talk to you again soon. Can't wait.

All right, that's it. The final episode of Ship It with Justin Garrison and Autumn Nash. Adam and I would like to sincerely thank you two for picking up the torch that we first lit with Gerhard Lazu and running with it.

This past year of new Shippit episodes has been great, and I'm sure FAFO.FM will be great too. And yes, Autumn, we would love to join your new pod as guests in the new year and have you two on ChangeLogging Friends as well. One last thanks to our partners at Fly.io, to our Beat Freak in Residence, Breakmaster Cylinder, and to you for listening. We appreciate you spending time listening to ChangeLog Pods each week.

Okay, that's all for me. Ship it.