What on earth is wrong at Man City and Man Utd? Plus, Newcastle, Fulham and Forest are flying.
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Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. Well, for some, Christmas can be a time of excess and getting more things than you really want or need. And that is definitely true for both Manchester clubs. Manchester United suffered an eighth league defeat against Wolves, conceding a goal direct from a corner for the second time in a week, while Manchester City failed to win again, drawing 1-1 with Everton as Erling Haaland saw a penalty saved by Jordan Pickford.

on today's show we'll discuss both of those games as well as Newcastle's eventful win against Aston Villa and more impressive results for Fulham and Nottingham Forest I'm

I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have the Times Football Reporter who covers both Manchester clubs, Paul Hurst, the Northern sports correspondent Martin Hardy and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson is here too. Lads, Merry Christmas. As Martin was saying before this show, we've got to go in. This is a Northern special. We've got me sat in my parents' house in Salford, Martin's up north in the North East, Hurst is in Manchester and Gregor Robertson, the big southern fairy down in Waltonstow.

Keeping us all in check, nice and balanced there he is. How are you doing Greg, are you alright? I'm good yeah, I'm back in the loft. Back in the loft, looking quite scary, we can barely see you, it's just a silhouette. It's a bit like you're on crime watch telling us about someone who robbed a Morrison so you can't quite bring us the details for when you want to protect your identity.

Well, this is the first bit of sanctuary I've had for the last couple of days. This is not really Gregor's voice, is it? It's the voiceover he's been dubbed to protect his innocence. Is that actually your house, Gregor? Is that your house, Gregor? Just checking that it's your house. Yes, this is my loft, yeah. I love it dearly. This is my loft where he spent many a happy 6.30am morning with me during the year it's at.

Talking about Gareth Southgate. Happier times. Let's get straight into the action then, guys, to the Etihad, where Paul Hurst watched Manchester City 1, Everton 1. Hurstie, I was watching this on the telly. It had a bit of a familiar feel to recent weeks, I thought. An early goal, a bit of relief, the players trying to gee the crowd up, and then quickly washed away by nagging doubt. A good goal by the opposition, and in the end, just uncertainty and anxiousness.

Yeah, I completely agree with that. Like you say, it wasn't... I don't think it was the worst performance of the recent Padron, but, you know, that's not really saying much, is it, given how poor City have been. But, yeah, it just... It doesn't really seem to take much to knock City's confidence at the moment. That's the thing. If they concede a goal and they're not, you know, 4-5 up, which they're not these days in any circumstance, then it looks like they're going to crumble. They are so...

fragile and that is something we are not accustomed to see with Manchester City at all so yeah but again you know silly mistakes it always comes down to individual mistakes it always comes down to mischances as well Bernardo Silva missed a

It's such a good chance to put City 2-0 up. A guy who you put your house on in previous years to score that goal from 12 yards, that's his bread and butter, isn't it? He comes to him on the edge of the box and he's there and before you know it, it's in the back of the net. He didn't score that one. By the end, City were hanging on. At one point, Everton had four on two at the end.

I was thinking, and Nathan Ake has got like one leg. He's like hopping along. And I was thinking, this is, this is crazy. This absolute, it's just, it's just a complete mess really. And it's just, I don't know how they've got here. I don't know how they dig themselves out of it. That's the problem. I always think, how low can they go? You know, how far can they keep on digging? Yeah.

Covering United since, of course, Fergie. I remember someone saying to me the first year in 2014, you know, Man United might not finish in the top four. I was like, what, really? No chance, you know. Man United aren't always going to finish in the top four. And then, you know, they went from, you know, they went even further down the table than that. And all of a sudden they weren't in Europe at all. So,

I mean, that's not beyond the question for City not to be in Europe next season. That's how poorly they're playing at the moment. So something needs to change pretty quickly. And that was the kind of theme and has been the theme of the recent post-match press conferences and pre-match press conferences from Pep Guardiola. And he's linked it to signings, but also saying, oh, we can't just make rushed signings. I mean...

Does that say everything about both maybe Guardiola and how he's feeling in this moment, but also this City squad? Because it's almost like it's December 27th and we're kind of writing off this squad that is blessed with, you know, tons and tons of superstar players, huge, huge names. And we've now got to this position of where Pep Guardiola and everyone else is saying, well, City need to make a few signings in January if they're going to have a chance at the top four. I mean...

Are we kind of just writing off these players? You know, like Kevin De Bruyne coming off the bench yesterday, any other time in his career would have been, this is the moment it'll change. And again, he just doesn't look like he's got the same abilities that he's had in the past. I mean, Gregor, I just wanted to ask you very quickly about City and this game and just some of those points. You've obviously talked a lot about these players,

and the moment it goes and the legs go and things like that. Are we in a position now where we're going, oh, well, this is the season of transition and change and these players are to be not left behind, but, you know, to be moved on and planned for the future? Well, I think there's a lot of change coming, a lot of change in terms of the squad. And the thing that just always strikes me when I'm watching City these days is that people...

seem to be looking for one of those players you mentioned, one of those stars of old, to be the person who does something, who changes, who produces a moment of magic or just has that kind of 10-minute spell where they're a force of nature and they drive the team forward and it's not happening. And part of that is down to the kind of thing that Guardiola's alluded to, which is that there are lots of little factors here and that's been the case for a few players. De Bruyne is one of them. He's not stepping off the bench and

and winning the game for them anymore. Again, I'm still always struck by the injury list when, you know, Hurstie...

kind of listed the players in his report today and for this game alone there was Ederson Grealish Walker Nunes Stones Diaz Rodri Oscar Bob obviously looked like he was going to be big and have a big season at the start of the season so like there is that mitigation but then as I say the thing that's always struck me throughout this is that when you're looking when the other players are looking for that

that moment that or that individual that will change something they they drop a bit they don't they kind of

I don't know, they're not freewheeling, they're not playing full of confidence. It has the opposite effect. If you don't have the best players around you, then it sort of inhibits you almost. That's true. If you're playing with better players, everyone lifts all boats around you and that's just the opposite effect is happening at Manchester City before your eyes. So it is amazing. It is like you do, you know, you very rarely see this of such elite players. But I said it a few weeks back, everyone like...

It doesn't matter what level of sport, everyone has to have confidence. The bit between your ears is always, has always and will always be the most important and most impactful part of sport. And we're seeing this all over the Manchester City team as it stands. What interests me, which is Greg has touched on that, is just how optimistic everybody in football is and how optimistic a football fan is. Because...

It's like they'll go out and buy some players and everything will be fine. One of the main reasons they're in this mess, which people don't talk about, is the fact that their recruitment has been dreadful. So Mateo Nunes, Savinho, Calvin Phillips, Doku are not players that are good enough to play regularly in a title winning team.

So that's the best part of £150-200 million gone and you've failed to strengthen. So in moments like this, you are relying on Bernardo Silva, Kovacic, Gundogan, who looks a different player than the one that left to go to Barcelona.

He hasn't got the intensity of the Premier League back and Kevin De Bruyne has trusted him 15 minutes. So the players that were supposed to refresh the squad failed and now you're going to go back again and say, here's some more money, go and find us some players that are probably better than what we have had so far. The other element is, are we going to have the conversation about Erland Haaland in a team that's struggling and is desperate for every player to contribute? Is he doing enough? And, you know, you can pinpoint him on the penalty yesterday, um,

But you cannot... You can take Erland Haaland when this is a title-winning team destroying everybody and then make millions of chances and he's scoring two or three goals a game. But right now...

Can you afford a player who touches the ball 10 times per game? Hurstie, I want to come back to Erling Haaland in just a second, but both to some of Gregor's points there and to Martin's point about some of the signings. What are your thoughts? Yeah, what Gregor said, I completely agree with that. It's kind of the... It's like you're watching, with De Bruyne and Gundogan in particular, it's like you're watching two different players. You know, it's...

you know, and he's right about, you know, it's between, it's between the years, you know, it's that confidence, it's gone, you know, it's just not there anymore. These two guys that would have, you know, dragged them out of any hole that they were in before, like when Gundogan scored those goals to win him the,

winning the Premier League on the final day of the season against Aston Villa and De Bruyne who stood up in so many matches and has spent the last 10 years being kicked from pillar to post and getting back up and carrying on and coming back injury after injury it's almost as if their confidence has just been sapped now they're passing it to the likes of Savini or the likes of Doku and wanting them to do something with it

And I just think, and Foden as well, I mean, a lot of onus has fallen on him recently because De Bruyne and Gundogan just haven't got the confidence to do it or Pep hasn't got the confidence in them to do it. And so, yeah, in terms of recruitment, I agree with Martin. I think last summer was a bit of a,

bit of a missed opportunity really I think Pep Guardiola is for me he's at his best when he's at his most ruthless and we've seen him before you know the way that he just got rid of Aguero you know he was playing you know 10-15 matches a season in that run up to the 2021 final he wasn't playing that much and

You could see that was having an effect on the squad, having to carry a lot of minutes in his absence. And he just got rid of him. You know, the guy, the club's record goalscorer wasn't turning it on at that moment. So, you know, on your bike, pal. He just went. And then... But last summer...

for me, needed a really good refresh. And he always says, oh, I really want to shake the squad up, particularly when we win something. But they just didn't do that. He was sort of like left rolling on. And, you know, Savino, to me, Savino will be a good signing. I know the controversies of the transfer fee are pre-evident, you know, getting from a sister club for 20 million. But then, what,

where was the other investment for me? The, Doku, again, will be a good player. I think they'll sell him for, they'll probably sell him for a profit in a few years time. But he needs, still needs a couple of years for me to be a top, top professional. And then, I think, I think they thought that Gundogan would be

would be the ultimate, would be exactly the same player that they left. You forget that he played more minutes for Barcelona than any other player last season. And that's going to take its toll on a player who was looking quite jaded towards the end of 2023.

So, yeah, there's a lot of question marks about last summer's transfer policy. I said the one absolute killer blow for City was losing Oscar Bob. And people might laugh at that because they say, oh, what's Oscar Bob done in...

in his career but he was looking so good in pre-season he was looking so good towards the end of last season you might remember St. James' Park him coming on and turning it on last season he looked such a brilliant player so confident with the ball at his feet and really a fantastic dribbler and he would have he would have added you know

you know, 15 goals for Man City this season and given them another option because Savinho and Doku are the only wingers at the moment and they just...

They just don't look like scoring or creating anything, really. One thing that is interesting is that has this team now lost its mystique? Like a heavyweight boxer or a boxer that's undefeated, once they lose a fight, it's like, oh, hang on a second, we can get into them here. And as you have said there, Paul, at the end of that game, if Everton had a little bit more nous or ambition, they could have won it. They had two or three breaks towards the end of the game and you thought...

this really hints at the fragility of Manchester City mentally at the minute and what Greg has said about confidence every manager always says and sometimes you should really listen to the managers because what they're saying makes sense but the one thing that this team has lost at the minute is its power it has no power so it's like you're looking at Bernardo Silva, Kovacic, Stokke, Savino, Ford and you're thinking

You might not be physically strong enough to dominate a Premier League game, especially when you're coming up against a physical team like Everton who will rely on the running statistics and the free kicks in the corners. I mean, none of us would have said, why is it 1-13 now? None of us would have foresaw this, but that is the beauty of the game. And with each week, there is another problem for Pep to solve. And you're looking at a fixture list that is...

it looks quite favourable in terms of is it Leicester, West Ham? Salford becomes a huge game in the Cup and with everybody looking at that thing and my goodness what a banana skin that is with Gary Neville and these weird noises in an executive box somewhere inside the stadium.

And then you've got Brentford away, who've got the best home record in the Premier League, and then Ipswich away. So suddenly Brentford and Ipswich become really funny games, but all those five games could be won. But at the minute, they're so fragile. And it's like people really believe this is the time to beat Manchester City. And right now, I don't see the power within that team to kind of come charging through this period. But I'm sure Pep's going...

going through a million different scenarios trying to figure out what to do. But this is an incredible story this season that nobody really foresaw. Yeah, they like that power in midfield. I mean, Pep went through...

Certainly the players that he inherited were quite nimble players, players like David Silva, etc. But then he went on a targeted spree of buying quite strong physical players, players like Rodri, players like Laporte, players like Diaz, Haaland, look at the size of him. Even like Doku, he's quite a muscular guy, he's quite a strong and powerful fella. But you look now in that midfield, central midfield, and

Kovacic is not exactly a bruiser. You know, he's certainly got that sort of, you know, got that mentality, but he's not everywhere like Rodri. You know, he isn't as physical. And then Rico Lewis is thrown in midfield and he's another very good technical player, but just gets kicked all over the shop. So he's never...

And they're looking at that Everton midfield yesterday. I thought they will just absolutely swamp City. They will be harassing them as soon as they got the ball and they'll be pushing them to move the ball on quickly. And if there's a little bit of physicality involved, they will just out-muscle City. And that's what they did. Sorry, go on, Gregor. Yeah, just back to the recruitment. I actually don't think in isolation they recruit a lot of those players. You said it, Hurstie.

I don't think the recruitment has been that bad. I think they've just been kind of suckered by how quickly some players have aged together.

And that combined with sort of injuries has meant that they've relied on these players. Almost always a Pep Guardiola signing has to be bedded in over at least a year. And they have to take time to know what it takes to be part of a City team. And then they kind of gradually build the stature that the rest of their teammates have. And some of them don't do it, but a lot of them do.

the difference this year is they've needed them and they've been looking around for the players who should help them through who normally do and they're not there so then it's just been a spiral and it's the hardest thing in football to get out of it's the hardest thing to get out of this sort of death spiral the confidence is gone you come out with all the old cliches about having to work harder the harder you work the better chances of you getting out of it

sometimes you're in the lap of the gods I mean you could have seen that game there are moments of that game periods of the game yesterday where you thought City should run away with this and then and then Haaland misses the penalty but then by the end they could have lost it so like again just in that that half second half in isolation was kind of underlined as Martin said how fragile they are but

Paul, what did you make of Kevin De Bruyne being perceived to have stormed off at the end of the game without shaking anybody's hands? This is a player that I absolutely loved.

And he did, you were right, he scored a brilliant goal against Newcastle last season. But I think his impact in the big games last season was starting to fade, exemplified by the fact he got substituted against Liverpool, then had a massive strop, came back the next week in notice, respect, scores against Crystal Palace. But in them big, big moments against the top teams, his impact seemed to be winning. I thought this is going to be a really interesting season for him. Is that moment where he comes charging off the field, is that anger at himself? Is it anger at Pep? Is it because...

he wants to be more involved at the minute? I think it's, yeah, it is frustration with, with himself, I think, with his body. He's probably a bit, he cheesed off with Guardiola as well. I mean, he's not been afraid to show that in the past, has he? I mean, do you remember that, that few seasons ago when,

When Pep was barking orders from a touchline and De Bruyne just turned around to him and went, shut up, shut up, like that. He's that kind of stubborn guy, De Bruyne, that he's... And he has been so self-confident in the past that this has come as a shock to him, you know, the decline. To the point where...

I mean, I was told at the end of, or start of this season that he was sort of coming to terms with the idea that he wasn't going to play every three days, that he'd accepted it. You know, I can't perform that, you know, such a high level every three days and, you know, it will be, I'll be in and out of the team, which is fair enough. You know, that's quite a responsible thing to do, isn't it? But it's still, I think when you come to see him on the pitch and you think,

you know, you ask him to come on for 20 minutes and win a game when he's not been playing. I think that doesn't really make sense to me. You know, he kind of, he's either there or he isn't, you know, he can't have a, you know, one foot in, one foot out situation. So like I said earlier about Aguero, you know, he wasn't doing it. So, you know, that's, it was time for him to move on. And I just think the more that,

the more that I see De Bruyne himself, the more I see Guardiola and his treatment of him, I just think he's getting towards that, that end point. And I remember he did a press conference before one of the Champions League games recently, De Bruyne. And I just remember thinking, you know, because you find out who's, who's doing the press conference before and,

Sometimes they put someone rubbish up when they're in a lull just to kind of make it not interesting, basically. But when they put De Bruyne up, I thought, crikey, this will be good. We'll get a bullshit De Bruyne just explaining what's going on and about him talking about his injury and how he's determined to get back to his best. And he just didn't seem to be there. He just seemed really kind of a bit hollow, really. He didn't have that kind of fight that...

that he used to have. You know, so I, he's, the decline in his game has been, I was going to say astounding, but it's not because he, at the same time, he's had some awful injuries over the last two seasons. Even going back to that Champions League final in 2021 when, when Rudiger, you know,

Rüdiger broke his eye socket. I mean, one of the... He described to me as like being in a car crash, that. He had an injury that was like he'd been in a car crash. So imagine being through the trauma of that and then doing two series... He played the last two months of the 2022-23 season, the treble season, with a hamstring injury. His hamstring was tearing every match, but he still played. So, I mean, that says a lot about him. And I think what...

So in a way, it is sad that it is coming to this end because he's been such a great player. But I think we also should not forget how brilliant a performer he's been for seeing how... And those injuries, they're the mitigating circumstances on... That's the reason why he's going downhill. Paul, if you were Manchester City's director of football in January...

you haven't told us if that is your new position but if you were if you were I'm up on to offers from them if you were would you be looking to replace Gundogan and De Bruyne in the January window I'd be looking to buy at least one midfielder but I'd also keep hold of

De Bruyne and Gundogan which may be a bit silly given what I've just said about how they've fallen off a cliff but I do also think they need bodies at the moment looked at that bench yesterday I was thinking crikey Gundogan and De Bruyne were the only senior outfield players apart from James McAtee who he clearly doesn't trust and

on the bench and you've got Scott Carson and another, another young goalkeeper on the bench as well. So, they need bodies. Like, as Greg was saying earlier, that he's eight, eight out against Everton. Aki looked like he did his hamstring yesterday as well. So that, that brings on to nine. So, you know, I'd keep Gundogan and De Bruyne, but I'd, you'd want to bring at least, at least one midfielder in, you know, the centre half and then, and then an attacker maybe as well. But,

As Pep was saying, you can't just have sticking plasters. The January market is such a, you know, it's fool's gold really, isn't it? You've really got to have someone who you would be targeting in the summer who's willing to come six months early and then you've got to expect them to bed into the squad in a time of crisis as well. So he's asking a lot, isn't it? So I can see why Pep's so apprehensive about what might come in January. I think there's every chance this is more than a blip.

I think for a number of reasons. One is that whatever happens, we're talking about some huge figures in the recent history of Manchester City, either in real decline or on the way out the door. You've got the change in relationship and a bit of lost allure of Guardiola himself. And there'll be a change in relationship with the players because they've never seen him flail around not knowing how to fix something.

And they've got the fact that even if they go out and spend, I don't know, 200 million on some really talented young players, they have to do that very well. And there's change in the boardroom, in the director of football seat as well. There's just a lot of change coming. And it's very hard to...

to sort of enact all of that in one go in one summer and it to all come off and be a success I think there's a good chance that there's a period of a big period of transition for Man City now they're too big a machine for it to fail or anything but it's this is I think there's a good chance this is more than just a blip

But

Paul Joyce has written a lot on the Times website about the takeover at Everton and the future for Sean Dyche and things. But on the pitch, just in terms of watching them for this 90 minutes, what did you think of Everton?

I thought they were fantastic. Like I said, the three guys in midfield were, were really, really imposed themselves on the game. And Coleman, I probably, I remember I looked at the match report this morning and thought I probably didn't do his actual all-round performance that much justice. Because I, I thought that the interruption for the penalty was, was just, I just thought it was out of the top drawer of, you know, mind games. And I love that kind of thing. For me, that is, that is part of the game now. And,

Jim, I can't remember who it was who wrote a piece for us during the Euros. I can't remember, was it Johnny or Paul Joyce or Matt Lawton about how Gareth Southgate had

of every aspect of the penalty taking process to the point where you've got a buddy who looks after you and you know and kind of you know you're talking to them rather than rather than someone who's around you like from the opposition and you've got someone protecting the penalty spot and I was looking at that yesterday with City and I was thinking right so Akanji's on he stood on the penalty spot

And he's protecting the... He protects it so no one can scuff the spot. And we spoke to him after the match. He said, that's what my job was, to protect the spot. Fair enough. But no one else is around. There's only... There's him and Haaland in the area. The other... Every Man City player is outside the area. And you've got Coleman, like you said, with all his experience and know-how. And he's just having a lot... He's pulling Haaland's shirt and trying to have a joke with him.

and just pile the pressure on even more and Pickford's taking ages and you know looking at his water bottle and you know folding his towel and messing around and doing whatever he can to delay it and then when eventually when the referee had booked Coleman

just walked to the edge of the area and Kovacic was stood there going oh you naughty little boy you shouldn't be doing that but they just tapped him on the back as if to say oh yeah nice try I was thinking that is just maybe I'm a bit too like this is too much of a simplistic thing and I'm too sort of old school when it comes to things like this but

I just thought it was remarkable that no one was in that penalty area just protecting Haaland and just kind of making sure that they had control over that situation because when you have control of that penalty taker situation it is so much easier it was in front of their own fans at their own you know it was in the home end and they've got the world's I suppose the best goal scorer ever

taking the penalty kick, I think even in City's situation, with the lack of confidence in the team, you would bet, you know, you'd bet your bomb dollar that Haaland would score that. So they just don't help themselves in that situation. I just thought it was really, really daft from City, but really clever from Coleman and from Everton. And yeah, overall, I thought they were...

I thought they were great. I thought they were just really, I think away from that match thinking, yeah, they're going to struggle this season. Yeah, a brilliant performance from Everton and an excellent goal, we should say, from Ilham Anday as well. Brilliantly taken goal. Not many players could not only think to try that on the second touch, but also pull it off. So a great point for Everton and Sean Dyche. Gregor, I'm going to come to you on two teams who also picked up impressive results today.

on Boxing Day Fulham and Nottingham Forest they are becoming the stories of the season as well as Martin Hardy talking about the great story of the season that is Manchester City's downfall in terms of two positive stories Marco Silva at Fulham and Nuno Espirito Santo at Nottingham Forest Forest getting a 1-0 win at home to Tottenham I'm proud to say that I subbed in Nottingham Forest goalkeeper Matt Sells

and put him straight into my fantasy football team. So confident was I in a Nottingham Forest 1-0 win. And Fulham finally getting a win at Stamford Bridge is an amazing stat I saw about this game. Fulham won a Premier League game away at Stamford Bridge for the first time in 18 attempts, their first away victory against Chelsea in any competition since October 1979. Gregor, just your thoughts on these two teams as they continue to be very, very impressive this season. Yeah, hugely impressive. And like...

very different sort of reasons and different ways too Forrest kind of out of the chaos have just found probably the most balanced settled and one of the most impressive teams in the league the dynamism and threat they have with the Alanga, Gibbs White and Hudson-Odoi behind Wood Wood who's obviously having an outstanding season but now what's also kind of come to the Forrest is

is how solid they are defensively. Milinkovic and Murillo in front of sales, as you said, they're just being absolutely outstanding, brilliant partnership. Yates and Anderson in front of them too. And these kind of players can be switched up, but the system and the job is always the same. They know what they're doing. I think Ola Aina has been one of the stars of the season as well. He's been absolutely brilliant, both in attack and defence, 1v1 defending. They're not many better in the league than...

Nicky Williams is coming at left back as well and being brilliant in attacking sense too. They're just... We knew... If you...

you thought Forest versus Spurs you knew what would be coming you knew that Forest would have 30 odd percent of the ball but probably better chances if not more of them and that's what turned out to be the case and you knew that we'd probably have their best chances on the counter and the goal was a perfect example of that Gibbs White getting kind of surging forward and playing a brilliantly weighted through ball for Alanga and it was a lovely finish and

And even towards the end, Spurs had Jed Spence, who formerly played at Forest, sort of inverted number 10 from fullback. And just, you know, it was just leaving the space that Forest were going to exploit. We're not here to talk about Spurs today, but they're still doing the same old things about not thinking at all about what the opposition are good at and playing into their hands, basically. And then Fulham just...

in the second half performance just looked like they thoroughly deserved the victory. Very few teams I think in the league as well attack as well with their full-backs down the flank. It's a bit more old school. You see a lot of teams nowadays, the full-backs are inverting, stepping into midfield. It's like providing a platform, a foundation for the rest to go forward. Fulham with Anthony Robinson and Timothy Castagna or...

what's his name, Kenny, Teddy as well. Yeah, they were like brilliant, dynamic up and down. Robinson in particular, he's always, you always think for a couple of years now, you think there's been a great relationship with someone down the left that was Willian for a while. Now it can be, it's been Pereira for a while, it's been Iwobi, it's been Rhys Nelson. You're kind of realising that there's a common denominator here and it's Robinson. He's become one of the best left backs in the league and

he was involved heavily in the second half yeah Fulham wrote a piece before I went on paternity about the way they've assembled their squad so different to anyone else in the league it's like you know most teams are casting their nets further and wider to find young players fetishising young youth and kind of you know unearthing gems but

Fulham are signing cast-offs from other Premier League clubs and they're doing it brilliantly Yeah we're going to come back and talk about Fulham and Nottingham Forest and their aspirations for this season at the end of the show Just for a sorry for a third five points

Five points ahead of Newcastle as well. Yeah, yeah. It's all planned. It's all planned. I don't say they're going to stay there, but it's not... Newcastle's coming in. We're going to link it all. Trust me. I've got it all planned out in the second half of the show. We'll come back to talk about Nottingham Forest and Fulham's finishing positions. And we're going to talk about the two Uniteds as well. But it's time for a break. So it's time for my favourite part of the show anyway. When I ask...

Who am I talking about when I say a former footballer who played for Manchester City and Newcastle, as well as spending time in the Premier League with Coventry, Blackburn, West Ham, Liverpool and Cardiff? Nice and easy one for Christmas time. Find out after the break.

Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clarke and I've got Martin Hardy, Paul Hurst and Gregor Robertson with me on today's show. And they're all desperate to answer the quiz question. I'm not sure who got it first, Martin Hardy. I think it might have been you. The answer being...

Craig Bellamy. Craig Bellamy, of course. Nice and easy at this time of year. Although actually I said nice and easy and you took about three hours to get Nigel Riococo the other day, didn't you Gregor? So we'll make it a bit more easy for you now post Christmas. Martin, let's talk about Newcastle. You were at St James' Park for a very impressive win for Eddie Howside against Aston Villa. Before we talk about Newcastle though, I just wanted to get the former Defenders' Union, the former Footballers' Union,

to decide red card for John Duran yes or no Gregor Robertson it's funny I thought yes and then I was persuaded a bit by watching much of the day last night that he's clearly folded his ankle and

you do need to shift your weight so I don't think anyone could know apart from him so I'm really really on the fence there Martin Martin Hurstie I know you're not often on the show but I would say that is a quintessential Robertson answer like could not get could not get less definitive Hurstie it sounded like that's very fancy sounded like you were saying yes definite red for you no I was lining up a Geoffrey Boycott for defensive but

He's not very good for a podcast, but I was complimenting Gregor on his... Honestly, I might as well have just ignored it altogether and just started straight with Newcastle. So let's get into it, Martin Hardy. A few weeks ago, you wrote a piece about, we were discussing it, about Newcastle struggling to score goals. Since then, they can't stop scoring. They owe it all to you for pointing it out so that they could fix their problems. But...

I mean, watching the extended highlights of this, it seemed to be, you know, Anthony Gordon attacking that end of the ground, getting a goal nice and early. It's becoming a nice little theme of home games in recent weeks.

Yeah, it's funny how Bruno Gameris lost the toss again. Excuse me. So Aston Villa turned Newcastle around so they had to shoot towards the galley again the first half. The fans were really annoyed about this. They really fed up with Nubu and when Emi Martinez went at his end of the ground, he was getting jaded. And it really fired Newcastle up. It fired the crowd up. For the first five or ten minutes, the ground was really noisy and Newcastle just tore at Aston Villa.

Sandro Tonali, who is, you must start watching this player. He's absolutely a beautiful technician. He starts the moves that leads to the first goal and Newcastle are kicking down the slope. I think I've said this before. There is a big slope on the pitch towards the Gallagher end. Teams might want to start reconsidering this idea of it will upset Newcastle by making them go down the slope when they're annoyed and get their tails up.

The castle got control of the game. Villa came back into it a little bit and then there's the Durand sending off. And the Durand sending off, I am arguing with my son at about midnight this morning in the house. He says it's not a red. I say it's a red. I would say 90% of journalists in the press room said it was a red.

Bits in the game that you don't see in the TV. One is that John Duran pulls out of a challenge with Sandro Tenali and gets shouted at by Unai Emery. And the Aston Villa bench were hyperactive, by the way, in the first half yesterday. Really, really volatile. Jumped up and down, which plays into Jason Tindall's hands for giving them the shush finger and winding them up a bit more. John Duran is also frustrated that he doesn't get to take the free kick that Lucas Dinha takes, which Martin Dubravka saves.

So all these things are in his ear when he goes charging through with Fabian Scherr

And I, like Greg, I watched Matt today and saw Alan Shearer. But Alan Shearer, there was two potential stamps. There was a left foot, then there was the right foot. So Alan Shearer was going about the right foot one, where there was a great action onto the back of Fabian Shearer. But the first one is the one to watch. And the first one is when I think the excessive force is the way he lands on his left foot. And that's when he catches the player. And people were talking about rolling the ankle.

My argument is you do not land that forcefully. If you're landing that forcefully, you're risking injuring your ankle. You've gone down so hard and I accept the running fast. He looked like an angry player who thought, you know what, I can put one in here. And in fairness, Emery's going, the referee should have taken time and he wants the game to be refereed differently because he wants the referee to call VAR and say, what do you reckon?

And Alan Shearer and Emery said he should have taken his time. He did take his time. He took ages. Newcastle are not a team that pester the referees to make big calls. Martin Dubravka, really nice, really nice fella. Ran about 20 yards to get in Durand's face. Byrne and Jolene probably are more aggressive players. But the reaction of the players told you that some line had been crossed in that immediacy. And I think it was the left foot challenge that he had. Now, he sent off a violent conduct, which VAR says is correct.

there is an argument to say that, all right, if the intent wasn't there, it could still be serious foul play because you've left the player floored and you've stood on him twice. From there, Newcastle really get good control of the game, but they've still got to find the second goal, the third goal. They have three goals disallowed. They're completely on top. And Newcastle and Villa have this rivalry going back probably to the bed sheets and Ant & Dec.

when Aston Villa really celebrated Newcastle getting relegated, which, surprise, surprise, Newcastle fans are still not particularly pleased with. And they are the two clubs, they are the nouveau riche that have the money, if they could spend it, to really challenge the top clubs. So it is a big moment this season. Newcastle move above Aston Villa. Newcastle could have scored a lot more and that's now, I think, 13 goals in the four games since we did that piece and told Newcastle what they needed to sort out and

I do like listening to Eddie Howe because I think he's a very intelligent football manager and he's prepared to be very honest. At the start of the season, they were scraping through games and he said yesterday to us after the match, I was picking through my teams to see what we were doing wrong, trying to change stuff. And he said, it's very, very difficult to find that winning formula, which I think Gregor touched upon before. And at the same time, Eddie Howe said about a month ago, football turns in a heartbeat.

So Newcastle from being beaten 4-2 at Brentford, the doom and gloom. Some people, some people, perhaps the social media, Newcastle fans saying it's time for change. Now everything is very, very rosy. There is more to come for Mizak and just keep watching Sandro Tonali because what a player.

Martin, just on that, you were writing about this a few weeks back, it was about getting Tonali and Bruno in the same team and what the dynamic would be, but it seems to be it's like really, really clicked now. So it's Bruno as well. It seems to be Bruno can roam a bit more. Is that fair to say? Yeah, it is. They had a problem in that Bruno would play as a six, but he would also play more or less as a ten. So you could make yourself a little bit vulnerable in front of the back four.

When you play Tenali to the right, the dynamic didn't quite work. They have switched it so Gromero's playing as the eight and has a lot more freedom. He sets up the pass for the second goal to Jacob Murphy to cross for Isaac to score.

And Tenali gives you more control. So the conversation again in our house last night is like, what player? On Friday at the press conference that I wasn't at because I was off, Eddie Howard being asked, do you think Tenali is like Pirlo? And said, I can see the similarities. The conversation in our house last night was Busquets. He can play in such tiny, tiny little pockets and still emerge with the ball. And the dynamics... But he's also strong. He reads the game well, strong. There's so much...

Going back to when we first talked to Eddie Howe about why did he sign with Ternali. And he said it, I'd watched him on video, he said, but I fell in love with him. He's very emotive in his description of his players. He said, I fell in love with his technique. And he said, we saw him as a six or an eight.

I don't think that was a grand plan of right. I'm going to play Gamaris on the right and Tenali in the middle. So there's kind of, there's been an evolution to the team. But those three midfielders, SC Windy Castle's best players, along with possibly Dan Byrne, they got control of the game, overran Kamara, overran

Tielemans. You saw Onana give away the ball for the third goal because he just looked absolutely worn out by the finish. But Andy Castle midfield is really, really interesting to watch. As I said, Isaac has now, I think, seven goals and two assists in his last five league games.

but like Eddie Howe said to us there is a lot more to come from him as well we will see where they go from here Newcastle turns very very fast as a football club and as a city but there is certainly a big bit of bounce about them at the minute but they have Man United to come and it's a ground where they have won I think one league game in 50 years and again Eddie Howe's like these are the kind of records we have to turn around so

So, yeah, we'll see what happens on Monday night. But Newcastle have got momentum. And as we've said with regards to Man City, it's a huge, huge part of the game. Yeah, there's the classic Northern pessimism for the inverse jinx that me and Gregor have been pushing on the podcast this season. That'll definitely work for Newcastle against Manchester United.

Martin, it's interesting listening to you in the first half of the show talk to Paul Hurst about Manchester City and the need to sign midfielders. And here you are in part two saying that two of the best midfielders in the Premier League are at Newcastle. In terms of screwing up the fan base at Newcastle, I'd say Sandro Tonali and Bruno Guimaraes if Paul Hurst has got his new job in charge of Manchester City's transfers.

then they are going to be top of the list. But you talk about Izak as well. Just quickly, that is a part of the future for Newcastle, isn't it? And I'm not suggesting that these three players are going to be out the door in January. That would be an extreme transfer if it were to happen. But in terms of keeping those three players and building on that,

That is a huge challenge for Newcastle, isn't it? Because they are three of the players, if they were to make money, they would probably be making quite big money on them if they were to sell them to a side like Manchester City, for example. Yeah, no, there's a lot of different elements you've brought up there. One is the sliding door moment of Gundogan leaving Barcelona. And if he doesn't,

Do Manchester City then go harder for Bruno Guemera in the summer? Possibly. Is Guemera doing better than Gundogan now? Probably. That could have happened. We know that they like Bruno Guemera. Prior to Lini Castle, because of PSR problems, have said a big sale could be transformative. The people saying that are not Eddie Howe, who is very much saying, I want all of these top players to stay. Watched Steven Gerrard talk recently about his time at Liverpool and he said...

We had to fight so hard to get near Man United. And every time we thought we were going to get there, Fernando Torres got sold or Suarez got sold. And he said it had such a crushing impact on the dressing room because he said that would put us back another two years. So Eddie Howe will fight, I think, to keep all of those players. Gameras has the captaincy. It would be very interesting to see if Manchester City did come in with a bid, but you'd

you'd be talking about a phenomenal amount of money about I think he's closing the summer which is now no longer in place was about 100 million I think Newcastle will feel and we had the conversation again with Eddie Howe yesterday that you know the Champions League conversation starts again if you've got an aspiration to get in the Champions League Newcastle need to keep Isaac, Gameras, Tenali, Jolene's just signed a new contract and

because they are top, top players and they don't perhaps have that depth in terms of maintaining that. So they need to keep a hold of those players. Alexander Rizak, I think he goes to Arsenal, Arsenal win the title. That's how good he is.

goes to Manchester City I think you'd say Honestly Martin you're going to have Newcastle fans throwing their headphones out of the it's Christmas it's meant to be it's meant to be a nice time you're counting all their best players to the Premier League sides it's outrageous It's alright Hersey's going to get me a job at Manchester

Yeah, it's fine. It's fine. Gregor, just very quickly on Aston Villa, in ninth in the table, Martin describing what to me sounded like quite a messy performance from them, not just with the red card, but slight over-intensity on the touchline. A little bit lazy this, but slightly summing up their season so far in that it's lacked the kind of efficiency of a Noon Eye Emery season.

Yeah, and there are parallels with Newcastle the year they got in the Champions League too. The thing that struck me watching this was that

I don't agree with what Martin Samuel says, but it is so hard about PSR calculations and how it's almost impossible to gatecrash the elite. But it's bloody hard. Because when you do something remarkable and you get in the Champions League, this is what happens. This is why when we did the predictions at the start of the year, I think I tried to go for eighth for Villa. Just because we'd seen a glaring example of what happens the year before.

and Newcastle haven't got European football this year and they're coming you know it's been a wobbly season so far but when they've got all their best players fitting in the team they will be competing for the top four again but then what? It's how you take those steps and progress there's no room for error and even with no room for error it's still hard so I have sympathy for Villa and I think they'll probably be still pretty sanguine about it all given how well they've done in the Champions League

but this was messy and a bit tired and yeah kind of error strewn it wasn't the kind of villa we've become accustomed to yeah

Well, I'll bring it back to Newcastle and potential finishing positions, as I said at the very end of the show. But let's talk about another United, Manchester United. They have lost four of their last five games in the Premier League, as many defeats as in their previous 15 matches in the competition. Only Everton and Southampton have failed to score in more different games this season than Manchester United's seven. Ruben Amorim is the first Manchester United manager to lose as many as five of his first 10 games in charge of the club in all competitions since Walter Kluge.

Crickmere in January 1932 that fact mainly gets read out because of the wonderful name that is Walter Crickmere but other than that Hurstie the other club that you cover mostly on your patch is

I mean, it's remarkable. It continues to be remarkable. Hamza reporting from this game on another poor performance and Amirim saying that he has, quote, no idea how long it will take for the players to respond to his tactics, his thoughts on how he improves his team and that United must for now focus on survival.

Well, yeah, it's remarkable the death spiral, to borrow a quote from Gregor about how terrible Man Utd are, the state that they're in at the moment. It's 14th in the Premier League at this stage of the season. It's just remarkable. And

I mean, where do you go from here? That's the question. You probably have to have a fire sale, don't you? And then you were talking earlier about how it might take two years for Man City to rebuild. How long is it going to take for Man United to rebuild? I mean, if he's going to stick to this formation, then he needs... In Sporting Lisbon, he had four wing-backs, which he rotated on a regular basis.

and he's got one here in Dallow you know Ahmad is filling in there isn't he he's clear he wants to play him as an attacking winger he wants to play him as a number 10 alongside Bruno Fernandes when he's not suspended behind the striker so it's just like square pegs in round holes at the moment and players that are just look promising in sections of the game like I thought Garty was really tenacious at the start of the game yesterday

And he's played well in previous games as well, but then he fades and then, you know, the defence looks very wobbly at times and then...

It just doesn't seem to be a case where a United, where one player gets anxious and just kind of goes to pieces. Like, oh, Narnia started off the season playing brilliantly and then all of a sudden he's throwing him in and he's lost all his confidence and every set piece now you just think, right, this is going to go in. That one set piece yesterday, I saw him hammering and moaning about the referee wasn't

didn't intervene. But you look at that, they did it very well in the match of the day last night, looking at the analysis of where Onana was. He had four Wolves players around him. Not one United player protected him. So he's got all these four orange shirts whizzing around in front of him and the ball's looping over him like that. How can you control what's going on in that situation? And I just think that is such poor management when it comes... These are...

I mean, you know, corners have existed for a while. You know, he's part of the game. It's not a new thing. I don't think, you know, this is not like, you know, a new fad or anything like that. It's just something that has been part of the game for a while and the other clubs have really capitalised on. One of them, you know, Arsenal, up at the top of the league,

And then on the other end of the spectrum, I know your Wolves were even worse than United at defending set plays, but United are just so terrible at dealing with set plays that they'll end up conceding 20 goals a season from set pieces. And that is just, the way that they're going at the moment, that is just unforgivable, really. And they brought a new set piece coach in the summer.

from Brentford and sorry he had played he had worked at Brentford and Arsenal before Hamza writes about him in his piece this morning Andres Georgsson and then but then Aberyn has brought his own people in as well and

I just... I do wonder, you know, when... Maybe this is, again, me being all fuddy-duddy, but when United have a free kick, like the set-piece coach goes to the end of the... You know, Amarim tags him in. So Amarim goes out of the technical area and the set-piece guy stands there and goes, you know, you move there, you move there. And then none of them do what he says and the ball ends up in the back of the net. And you just think, what...

Do they not understand what's being fed into them throughout the week? Or is it just that they're not capable of just adjusting to different runners? I don't know, Greg will know better than me when it comes to technicalities of it. It just seems that basic application of what you should be doing and defending the corner, even that is beyond Man Utd at the moment. And I just think...

you know, we're in danger of a bottom half finish here, which is...

It's just something they'll have to accept. I can't see... I saw Everton play at Man City yesterday. I thought Everton would play better than a lot of the United's in their recent games. I just think they need a few good wins to get out of that because they don't want to be hanging around that relegation zone for much of the rest of the season. There you go. What an idea. Go on, Martin. There is an episode of The Office which I was Googling last night and it's the one where the UK office...

And it's the one where they're worried about customer care. So they bring in a speaker to have a chat with them all in the room. I don't know if you remember it. And I was Googling the fella's name who led the customer care meeting and he was called Rowan. So the start of the meeting, Rowan is full of the beans and he's very enthusiastic and this is going to be a great meeting and everything's going to be great.

At this point, David Brent starts interrupting them and throwing weird scenarios and ruins the whole thing. And bit by bit, you see Rowan's face change. So by the end of the programme, he's absolutely beaten. At which point David Brent famously says, get the guitar. LAUGHTER

Reuben Amron is Rowan he's gone from this bloke you thought look at the intensity look at the passion and you saw him on you and as Paul said there he's gone I don't know I don't know when it's going to get better I've got no idea who's getting the guitar out though yeah so Man United's players at the minute are like Gareth and David Brent just without any musical ability

They absolutely destroyed this. They are destroying Amram. You're watching him before your eyes saying, this poor bloke, everything he hoped is disappearing. I'm not sure who's more befuddled by it, Amram or Paul Hurst, listening to Hurst. He's long, very eloquent at times, but also a very confused answer about Man United's season. I was thinking, oh God, we're going to finish Hurst off here by the end of the season. A few weeks ago when we were in Amram honeymoon period and...

that one of my mates says, oh, you know, because this was after the Times had very kindly sent me to Lisbon for a week to shadow slash stalk Amram and see what he's all about. And I wrote a very kind of like glowing article about what he'd done about sporting Lisbon, what his strengths were, and a few of his weaknesses, to be fair, as well. And I came back, I read it, and it was quite a positive piece, so I got back. I thought, yeah, you know, and my mate read it. He said, oh, you know, you kind of,

It looks like he's the one then, isn't it? I said, no. There's absolutely no guarantee that he's the one. What I'm saying is he's good up until now.

It's good until he gets to Man United. What once he gets to that door and carrying to you, he does strange things to people. The vortex. The vortex. I was speaking to one player representative the other day who had players at Man United and they said, Man United is a place where players' careers go to die. That is sometimes what happens with... I mean, name me a player who's...

has improved since, you know, in the post-Fergie era from Ununited. I would say Bruno Fernandes is the only kind of one who's, you know, really gone on and improved. But then, you know, you look at his actions against Wolves and you think, crikey, you know, you've lost it as well, pal. You've, you know, you've been infected by this kind of

disease that makes you lose your mind. I agree. I think he's the best player. I don't think he's the same player that he was. He's the best player. He's the captain. If you watch the game yesterday, he's annoyed with the referee because he doesn't get a free kick, which is why he gets the first yellow card. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But at that point, it's like, whoever you are, but especially as the captain, just control yourself. And it was an awful challenge for the second yellow, which could have very nearly been a red and a seven. You think, where's your level of responsibility here? Yeah.

So everybody is saying now this is the worst Manchester United team in the Premier League era, which I would agree with. Some were saying it's the worst Manchester United team in memory. I would probably agree with that. So that team of probably Ron Atkinson at least had Brian Robson on Norman Whiteside to give it a heartbeat. Whereas this Manchester United team, you're going, I don't actually think it has a heart.

And by the finish, it's Maguire taking a header off Garnaccio. And you think, good grief. It's like, at least the office refreshed with new episodes. This is the same thing we've seen before. I think this is maybe the most scathing criticism of Manchester United ever being linked to David Brent. Also, coming back to that first yellow card for Fernandes.

Like, the referee shows him a yellow card, he's still in his face. And I was thinking, whoa, steady on, mate, you're going to get another one here. Yeah, yeah. The referee would have been within his rights to send him off for his reaction to that first yellow, given we're all told at the start of the season they're cracking down. And I've seen instances where that has happened. Talk back to the referee, yellow card, you know, you're gone. And that is...

It was just like so, I don't know, just an act of complete idiocy in the second half in that position as well. What has he gained from, what positional advantage has he given to his team by tripping Samed up in that right-back area? Absolutely none whatsoever. But I agree with 100% what you said there, Paul. You mentioned it about Erland Haaland being quite isolated for the penalty period.

And Arna was a man alone in the Manchester United penalty area. Bruno Fernandes is thinking... I'll tell you who he's thinking about. He's thinking about Bruno Fernandes. He's thinking about Bruno Fernandes when he's in the referee's face. He's thinking about Bruno Fernandes when he does the foul. He's not thinking about the team. So it looks like... It looks a pile of individuals, which it always has. Over the last few years, you get the occasional moment where they think, oh, they're starting to remember football as a team game. But then...

essentially they go back to making sure number one's alright and it doesn't work yeah absolutely so we could honestly keep talking about Manchester United and Manchester City for endless endless I'm glad it's helping you Hurstie you're going to end this podcast with some words to write so I'm glad you've got some things off your chest but just go on Paul can Man United end up in a relegation fight well

Well, that's my question. That's my question. Martin's making a great audition for my job on this show as well. It's absolutely fantastic. I'm going to be out of a job in no time. He's got offers all over the place. But let's finish this show then, guys, by talking about some of the teams that we have talked about. So I'm going to just go round. Greg, I want you to talk about where Forest and Fulham could finish at the end of the season as we're coming to the end of the year.

Martin, I want you to describe for me what you think a good finish would be for Newcastle and this team. Hurstie, you, City and United, where they're going to be. But I want you also to say Liverpool back on top of the table, seven points clear, Paul Joyce writing about another fantastic win on the Times website. Or give me your title winner as well. Gregor, I'm going to start with you. The goal has got to be European football. Four, three.

For both of them? For Forrest and Fulham. Yeah, I would say for Forrest it looks like that dream is slightly more realistic. Fulham I don't think will...

will achieve that. But I think they can finish in the top half and think it's been a great season. And probably beat their record points tally in the Premier League, which I believe is 53 under Roy Hodgson. So, you know, that would be a huge season for them. This is a huge season already for them. But Forrest, I think, just looking as well at the rest of the teams around them, Man City's sort of gone off the boil. I think they can...

go for the top seven. Top seven? There you go, Forrest Fountain. That sounds mad. I know it does. I mean, I don't think it does sound mad, not with them in third. Yeah, no, I think they can maintain a kind of push for Europe, not for the top four. That's madness. But I think they can keep the dream alive. Great. And Liverpool title winners for you, do you think, at this stage? Yes, I mean, undoubtedly. Just like watching them against Leicester yesterday, they...

and I didn't say anything about Man United there just the stark difference in how sort of one dimensional Manchester United are and you watch Liverpool afterwards and they've got five players in the forward line others making runs into the box it's like you know

so much more adventure and they also just have the most attacking riches in the league probably in Europe so yeah I think they'll win the league Martin Hardy your title winner please and where you think Newcastle what a good season for them would be I watched Liverpool against Chelsea recently was very impressed with Chelsea even though they lost and thought you never know however sometimes you listen to we should listen to the managers Maresca has been saying we're not quite there and I think yes there was proof that they're not the big difference I would say is probably Van Dijk

Liverpool the title for me so I think you may be looking at Liverpool Arsenal Chelsea and then you've got a fight for fourth and I think I think and bear in mind there is one point set rate in five teams from fifth to ninth so this whole thing changes game by game but I think that fourth place fight could be between Newcastle Manchester City if they can get themselves back together in Aston Villa Excellent Hurstie final word from you on all those topics please your two teams and the title Thank you

Yeah, I think City, despite the, you know, the death spiral we've been talking about, they are, it's only four, was it four or five points? Yeah, five points, isn't it, off the top four. So I think they can get into the top four if they, it all depends on what happens in January in the market. I think by two or three good players and get a few injured players back, then it looks, all of a sudden, it looks a lot rosier. United, yeah,

I mean, top half, you know, top half, they've got to aim to get to Europe. They've got to have some kind of European, some kind of money coming into their club from European games. I just think even if it's the Europa League, they're so close on PSA at the moment that any kind of, any money that they're getting from Europa League or Conference League or whatever would be welcome there.

marginal gains and all that. But in terms of current form, they're looking like a mid-table team, aren't they? So that is, it seems a bit of a pipe dream, doesn't it, Europa League, which says a lot. But I think, yeah, I agree with Marty. I think it'll be Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea top three and then City or Newcastle for fourth. And Liverpool just blowing teams away at the moment, aren't they? I just love how Salah just seems really to be

You know, we're talking about the lack of confidence in the City players at the moment. Just watching Salah in that post-match interview on Amazon last night and he just seems to be in the zone. He's sort of as if he's in the home straight at the moment and we're not even in January. He's just like, another one done, right, come on. And that's such a winning mentality that they've got and they'll serve him so well. Yeah, that's why they might have it wrapped up

by April if they keep going at this rate. Chaps, thank you very much for joining me. We've had a show of absolute northern powerhouses on today's episode. Paul Hurst, Martin Hardy and Gregor Robertson, thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for listening. We're going to be back on New Year's Eve with one final show of 2024. We'll see you then.