What next for Marcus Rashford? And a great League Cup line up
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That's very sweet of Steve. Tell Steve thank you very much. Let's not open them now, though, shall we? We're going to eat them. I'm going to eat them throughout the entire thing. Here we go.

No, you don't. You dare take that away. I'm not speaking now. I'm not speaking. That's it. I'm not speaking. You quite literally had his sweet. I'm not speaking until I get my sweets back. Sweetie's taken off him. What about you let him have one? If he gets the question, you're going to give him one. Very good point, Tony.

Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. Well, it doesn't get any easier for Ruben Amorim, does it? Some mixed results since taking charge of Manchester United and now one of his star players has said he wants to leave. Marcus Rashford wants a new challenge but his manager says the biggest and best challenge is to prove himself at Old Trafford.

On today's show, we'll discuss Rashford's situation, the completed takeover at Everton and the Carabao Cup quarter-finals. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have the Chief Correspondent for The Times and Sunday Times, Martin Samuel, the Football Correspondent for The Sunday Times, Johnny Northcroft and the former striker turned Times columnist, Tony Cascarino is here too.

we're back together. Last Thursday it was and another thing, and another thing. Couldn't stop you from talking. We've got loads and loads to get into. And Martin, you were excited to see that we had some little Christmas gifts on the desk. The head of podcasts has sprung for some, well, they're very nice. You're going to have one, yeah, yeah. I'm going to try one now, yeah. You're going to try one now. We'll try one live on air. It's a live tasting of a chocolate peppermint, ladies and gentlemen. Yeah.

This is what radio's all about, really. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Little treats, you know, to keep the stars happy. Yeah, exactly. Exactly, yes. Don't go to Martin first. He's got chocolate in his mouth. This was a tactic tone, you see. Now I get to ask you and Johnny about Marcus Rashford, you see. Oh, I'll put him out on half-way. That's right.

Get behind your mouth a little bit. Now I've got producer Neil begging him to give him the wrapper. Go on, go on. There you go. You've rustled it in front of the microphone enough. There we go. And now we can talk about Marcus Rashford. Huge news. We were talking about Marcus Rashford with Paul Hurst on Monday's show, of course, after he was left out of the Manchester derby. And then in an interview with Henry Winter, which was published on X, Rashford said, For me personally, I think I'm ready for a new challenge and the next steps are...

When I leave, it's going to be no hard feelings. You're not going to have any negative comments from me about Manchester United. Oh, we've got Martin choking on a chocolate now. Yeah, exactly. It's all going so well. Obviously, there's been various developments and we're here talking on Thursday morning and I'll bring in what Ruben Amarin said in response, but

Johnny, what was your reaction to this? Because Rashford at Manchester United is something that has been a fascination for us for a long time. You know, he's been a player there for such a long time, having burst through at a young age.

But I must say that even me as an editor, whilst we were talking about will he leave and things, I wasn't expecting this. I wasn't expecting this admission from the player himself. Well, yes and no, actually. I mean, it didn't surprise me. I think basically his admission was bringing things to a head, which was his malaise and unhappiness. It's unusual to do it in the way that he did. He is clearly trying to...

take back control of the narrative if that's what they would say yeah I mean in his interview he kind of says well you know it's disappointing to get dropped but that's in the past let's move on and it's like somebody desperate to try and right I'm going to try and do the agenda now and

There's an odd message about how I love the club but I need to leave. I need a new challenge. I won't say anything bad. I won't say anything bad but I don't want to be here. I mean, my overwhelming feeling on all this sadness, partly because Rashford's a player who at his best is an absolute joy to watch. Also,

he's got that 20 year relationship with the football club and I think there's something special and disappearing in football about those players who have those long term relationships with clubs and he's a talent that had got to a point that you could everyone could see the player Marcus Rashford could be and I think we've been in that position for maybe four or five years and

and thinking that if he could you know just a little bit more development he's going to be absolutely sensational and there are glimpses of it and why I'm sad is he doesn't want to stand and fight for his place he doesn't want to stand and fight for his career it would seem this comes just after Ruben Amram laid down a challenge to him you know if it wasn't a challenge the challenge was laid down to him by being dropped and in a gentle but firm way being told by the coach that

you need to up things here, you need to come to training better, you need to prove to me that you're worth being part of my plans. And the response almost a day later is to say I want to go. And that's somebody that has given up, I think, or at least given up on his Manchester United career. And we might get into where Marcus Rashford is or is not. I think there's always a personal dimension to

every footballer that gets overlooked and this is a person that's been through quite a lot in his life even until this year and then been through personal strife this year and just seems to be in a place where he's a bit lost

And he's now ready to cut the cord on a lifelong relationship, really, with the football club, which, again, on a personal level, makes me a bit sad for him. Lots of great points raised there. But, Tony, just on that point that Johnny's at the end there about a player who just feels, you know, I need to move, I've given up slightly. Talk to us about that as a player where he's been there for a long time, you know, he's still a young man, still got a lot of his career ahead of him, potentially.

But do you sympathise with that in any way, this idea that we've talked about his future for so long, his form hasn't been great for a while, he maybe feels, I just need to get away? Yeah, I can remember talking a few years back about Marcus and

on some of the problems that he'd been confronted with and that was a breakup with his partner and there was the agency that he'd broken up from them as well he wasn't playing particularly well you've seen him lose his england place over the last couple of years so everything's been spiraling downwards for for him yeah and i think the biggest criticism of him is not just from pundits it's the fans as well is he seems to want to do it when he wants to do it and other times he he seems to have this feeling for me that

He's doing you a favour. And when you get to that mindset of... And thinking you're owed a lot because you've been there a long time. Right. You know, when I saw the statement in Midway, I was thinking, Marcus...

Have you been in this mindset for two years? Because that's what it's looked like. So you've confirmed, basically. So you weren't surprised either, as Johnny says. No, I was surprised to be so quick after the manager was saying the things of, you know, well, yes, I left him out, but yes, I want him. He's still a tremendous player and I still think I can use him and he's still got big parts of play. And then the next line out is, well, maybe not. Yeah. You know, and that felt, wow. Yeah.

You've been kidding the United Football Club

for the last few years. He signed a really lucrative contract a few years back. And you felt that contract was going to see the very best of him. And United rewarded him with a contract at the highest level. This is to superstars. He's on huge wages. Yeah, exactly. So it's superstar treatment. And that contract confirmed that they're going, we believe in you. We think we can get even more from you. And that hasn't materialised. We see glimpses of Marcus. None of us here would say, Marcus,

Marcus is way more talented than I ever would have been. But we wouldn't, you know, we would look at him and say, God, we've seen glimpses and no more. There's been reminders of what he can do. Yeah, I want to come back to that point as well. And Martin, a point you made in your comment piece after the news broke. But just your reaction to some of the think points the guys made. And just I want to get a sense of how we feel about the statement first from Rashford on that Tuesday before we get into Amarim and what might come next. It was a very good story.

It was a very good story. Henry's story was an excellent story. And whilst I'm not surprised or whatever, it was a surprise on the night as such that it came out that way. So good luck to Henry there. Is it the way to do it? It's probably not. I mean, Amram is saying he should have come and spoken to me about it. But by the sounds of it, when you're at the stage where...

You're doing what Marcus Rashford is doing there where you're dropping one on the toes of the football club because I would have thought he hadn't said that to the football club either. Then the relationship is too far gone for him to be sitting down for a cosy chat with Ameren.

As the fella said, he knows exactly what Amarim wants from him and obviously doesn't feel motivated to deliver that. He scored the first goal of the Amarim era. It was within two minutes. He's probably not going to get the chance to score too many more. I think he's got three goals now for Manchester United under Amarim, which you would have thought...

Might have been a good start under the manager, but he's obviously seeing things from him that he doesn't like. Hence not being in the squad, let alone the team. Yeah, I mean, you make the point there that it sounds like you feel that there is no going back from this. I mean, I was editing yesterday, Charlotte Dunker rings in from Ruben Amarin's press conference. Oh, you know, Ruben's had his say. He said he wants him to stay, etc. If you want to challenge Rupert Marcus, the biggest challenge is here.

Do we think that that's a little bit of, I mean, not mind games from Ruben Amarin, but a bit of good PR from... Well, do we think that is it now? Is this the dams now towards an exit? You don't want to give the impression that you can't wait to get him out of the club.

because then you're going to get a low ball offer. So we don't think there's any way back for Marcus Rashford now at Manchester United? No, I don't think so. I thought it was a brilliant piece of communication by Amram though. Yes, I mean, me and Charlotte were saying this. He's so good. He's got the chat. He has, and to kind of...

almost turned the message back round to the mission, which is restoring Man United, to actually say there is a challenge here. I agree with Marcus. We all need a challenge and this is the biggest challenge in football. It was not only a clever way of dealing with the Rashford situation, but as I say, this is a guy who's trying to, I guess, galvanise a whole group of people to come with him on a journey and he managed to get the message back to that. He's just very gifted and, you know, he says as a, you know,

Marcus Rashford still has plans but then he's not in the squad so there's obviously that the next point I was going to add still on the editing desk Charlotte rings in and said he's not in the squad and I'm like oh my god this story just keeps going and going and of course we'll wait and see the starting line up tonight against Tottenham but you agree with the guys no way back for Marcus Rashford I can't see it I mean imagine if you had one of us guys who worked for you and we were giving half-hearted

performance is not quite sure we wanted to be here. What are you on about? You're always slagging me off through the entire podcast. Don't be nice now we're recording. No but imagine having someone opposite you and some of the things have been said and you're having a conversation and you're thinking can I rely on him? You know the way he's thinking. And

And as a teammate as well, what would you think if you were a teammate of his looking at this? Well, I know what a few teammates would have said to me and it'd be good riddance if you felt that way. Sometimes, look, I always felt I was very lucky to be playing. I tried to always do the right thing. There's one club I walked away from. It was Celtic. Okay? I went in and seen Liam Brady. He was hugely disappointed with me. He said, you was my record signing. And he said,

And you're asking me if I could go. And I said, yes, I don't think it's the right place for me. And it got me a lot of stick all over my career. Even today, Celtic fans will tell me I was one of the worst sign-ins ever. And by the way, they weren't wrong. But I didn't, I had no desire to stay there. I found the whole Glasgow Celtic thing very difficult.

to take on board and I'd walk out my house and there'd be a Celtic fan one day and a Rangers fan the other and an electrician come round and do something and it'd be one or the other and you was getting stick and the day they'd done it for me I'm walking in Glasgow with my missus pushing the push here to my youngest and a fan comes up and has a right go at me in the middle of the high street in front of my missus

And I've said, leave it. Leave off. I know you're a Rangers fan. He went, I may have been not a Rangers fan. I'm a Celtic fan. And I knew he meant it. And I thought, I'm doomed. No time to go. Yeah, and also, I was thinking like Marcus. Whereas, I didn't have my heart in it anymore.

And I'd only been there nine months, well, probably eight months at the time. And I knew I had to move away. Yeah. Just to give the next part of the conversation some context. I'm interested, we've talked, and a lot of you have mentioned poor form of late. He looks like he's only kind of producing every now and again. But this was a kid who burst onto the scene. Huge excitement. I mean, I remember watching him thinking he is...

a complete throwback to a player that my dad used to tell me about when I was a kid what you know the best players are the ones who get the ball and are quick and take people on and you know for England as well he became for Gareth Southgate throw him on down that left wing I mean if he can get back to that how good a player do we think Marcus Rashford is at his best is he you know top elite level European quality he's yeah

He can be. He can be. I mean, I don't think he will reach that now, quite frankly. He's 27. But the player that you can see hasn't really changed much from the kid that broke in the scene. But, you know, incredibly good close control at pace, which is golden in the game. An ability to sort of, you know, get...

very quickly into the box from a wide position again you think of somebody like Mo Salah making a career out of that and finishing ability which we saw when he scored two goals in his debut v. Michelin and that's the package and you mentioned England I mean he was a dimension that brought that team to another level in 2022 I think coming off the bench and it was something England missed in the summer but

there's always been flaws in this game as well. Coaches would say to you, well, he runs in straight lines all the time. He never, you never see him vary things. You know, he's very binary in his game and he needs to, you know, just learn a little bit more. I mean, my...

where I feel really sorry for him is he has given a lot to United he played through terrible injuries he had back problems for a couple of seasons he kept playing through them he happened to come into you know he was developed in the old Fergie system by the old Fergie coaches like Paul McGuinness and Warren Joyce and that was the club he was prepared for and then of course

wrong era because he ends up trying to build his career at the worst possible time at United with different changes of manager and he's also I think at times been treated badly by the fans I don't think now I don't think in the last couple of years I understand where they're coming from

but they were quite frustrated with him even at an early point and it was that thing that I think happens at all clubs that the local boy often gets the worst stick for whatever reason I don't quite understand that psychology so he's had difficulties is it part of being held up do we think so early probably he's one of our own all that kind of stuff as much as we're talking now about

his off-field problems. He was also the guy who took on the government, of course, and things like that. You know, he was lauded for so long for so many brilliant things he'd done as well. Absolutely. And whatever he does now, even if he retires tomorrow, he will have made his mark in the world in a way very few sports people do. And that can never be taken away from him. And that's... You know, he... He...

Did that take something out of him? Probably, I don't know. I think we're in the terms of speculating there. And, you know, there was opinion at the time that he should stick to his football. It's a lot of rubbish. I mean, you know, he had something bigger that he wanted to achieve and he achieved it. But now he is just left with the football questions and he's

Just very quickly, just going back to the thing about wanting to leave because you feel tired of being at a place. Amram's only been there a few weeks and this is the slap in the face to Amram that I think is going to make it hard for Rashford to recover because this is almost like a vote of, I don't want to be with this new manager forever.

And I've only given it a couple of weeks. And in fact, the very first time the new manager tries to exert authority over me, I'm not having it. I'm going. Which is a complete contrast to Alejandro Garnaccio, of course. Doesn't sound like much hunger in the belly there, does it really? To try and have a new manager. Yeah. Martin, you wrote a comment piece after this news broke and it was kind of slanted towards the idea of, well, what now for Marcus Rashford? Who could possibly afford him? As we said earlier,

Huge wages he's on at Manchester United and as you've made the point, they will want a fee for him in this era of PSR, pure profit, etc. But you speculated about a possible location for the certain manager who might be able to get the fire back in the belly. Because Pep Guardiola is a Marcus Rashford fan. He said to people that I know,

City a number of years ago that he was the one player that he would take out of Manchester United would be Marcus Rashford. He was his type of player. Now, it was just a little bit of mischief as much as anything else. Wouldn't it be interesting if they did do something? Because there will be a manager. I see a lot of stuff, say this morning, written about Saudi Arabia and things like that, you think. Better than Saudi Arabia.

He's better than Sardar. There's going to be a money... If Balotelli can get God knows how many different coaches that at various times thought, I can change this guy, I can get this guy sorted, I know what I need to do to sort this guy out because he's got talent that makes him worth it. If there were enough managers that Marco Balotelli got...

How many? Half a dozen chances. There's got to be somebody out there who looks at Marcus Rashford and remembers what the man was and thinks, no, I could get him going. I could get him going. Tony, what do you think to that idea about

a manager to get you going you know you've talked many times about how late in your career you found motivation for a different way to prove yourself in a different league moving to France and things could you see that for Rashford maybe get away from the Premier League get away from England and all of our prying eyes a little bit and just start again in terms of what could rejuvenate Marcus Rashford well you've got to get excitement I was lucky enough to get the unbelievable move to Marseille being given a free transfer from Chelsea and

and the next club who were the European champions at the time and yes have been relegated but it's still a huge club and that really excited me I remember going there and I remember as I was flying into Marianne Airport into Marseille you go out to the sea and you come back in and you fly over the stadium and I looked in and I just remember thinking wow

what a place to play my football I've got to make the most of this I really have so he needs to find something that's going to get that inside you that hunger because Marcus is you know I said it earlier we're not questioning his ability

But when someone loses the hunger in anything they do, you're going to get a poor result. And that's what we're seeing at the moment. And I think Marcus has to find that place. And don't be money-based, by the way. Don't just think it's... If you have to take a wage cut, but you go and play your best football again, you know...

Just that would be the most important thing for me. I luckily met Laszlo Bologny along the way, which was my coach. He was a Romanian international. He had over 100 caps. He won the Champions League or the old European Cup in Barcelona against Barcelona in their backyard. He won that and I met him and I had a different perspective on my football career completely through meeting him. Because when I left Marseille to go to Nancy...

I took 50% pay cut because the wages, the top ceiling at Nancy were nowhere near my say. Because you'd got the hunger back to play. Yeah, I was 33 at the time and I wanted to play and I met him...

And it was just like, wow, this guy. And he said to me, you'll play four years under me. And it basically took me to 38. Yeah. And I was laughing to myself thinking, well, I've only got two years, do I? Yeah. And he went, you'll play till you're 38. Yeah, fascinating. Boy, did I realise when I trained with him how hard he pushed me. Yeah. At 33. He totally went against all the myths in football, like being 33, 34, being on the treatment table, getting out on the pitch. Yeah. I had to work harder than the kids to...

To keep up with them. To prove yourself, yeah. No, to keep up with them. He'd say, they can run all day, but you, to keep up with them, you're going to have to train harder than them. And he trained me to a level that I'd... Everyone who saw me thought I was ill. They'd say to me, you look ill. Your face was like this. I'd say, training is... I remember one night in pre-season, going to bed after three training sessions in a day...

and thinking I don't want to go to sleep I don't want to wake up as in facing that train again the next day but you'd got the hunger back well I mean that's a good story to think about are you not going to get that in Saudi Arabia no exactly but you're not going to get that in Saudi Arabia there's nothing apart from the paycheck to inspire you really in Saudi Arabia so he has got to

Stay in Europe. People talk about America, but there's no difference there with America.

If he can stay in England, if he wants to play for someone other than Manchester United in England, that's up to him. But he's got to stay in Europe. He's got to stay in a top European league because that's the only way you're going to find that little spark of inspiration to get you going again. And he said in that interview that he didn't think he was at his peak yet. Well, if that's the case...

mate well you're not going to get your peak in Saudi Arabia no one peaks in Saudi Arabia could Barca be an option you know I don't see Real Madrid because of Inicius Junior but could Barcelona become one PSG's link because he scored two goals in the Champions League and the name I was playing that night and he's Sean Johnny I just wanted to ask you finally about and summary it up and obviously feel free to bring in some of the points the guys have just made there but you wrote a brilliant piece about Jack Grealish at the weekend

and about this idea of footballers who in the modern era, their game is about joy and fun. And in this modern era of highly attuned coaching and systems and things, sometimes some players lose the joy. Do we think there's a case of this with Marcus Rashford as well? When we talked about his game earlier being quite simple,

and what Tony's saying about getting the fire back in the belly and Martin saying make sure you go somewhere where that's going to happen is there a bit of a case of this with Marcus Rashford? I think there's a bit of a parallel although different reasons I mean I think what I was writing about was the over systematisation of the game which is a lot of it's based around

positional play I guess which is which is essentially the Pep Guardiola style of football which everyone tries to copy now and it's very rigid in terms of the positions players have to adopt on the pitch and it's also brilliant because it wins a lot of stuff and done right of course it produces incredible team football and that's wonderful but the individuals at the heart of it I think are becoming automatons in some ways the number of

not just at Manchester City but across the league the number of gifted players you now see they're allowed to take one touch and then they knock it back inside or if they're going to put it in the box they're only allowed to you know might be a cut back or a little ball

down into a 10-yard ball but they can't try a dribble or anything like that. We love people like Cole Palmer because he's still different. He does still play like a kid. And I think Jack Grealish is a bit of a poster boy for this. For good and bad, Jack Grealish has been turned into a world champion, a European champion and a multiple title winner by Pep and is probably very happy that he's got all those titles and all that kind of stuff.

but he doesn't have as much fun as he used to and it's not as much fun watching him and I do look at him sometimes when he you know makes five yards stops knocks the ball back to someone and at Man City he's known as a rest station because he's there to give the other players a breather because he's so good at holding the ball I do wonder if he misses being that kid that was allowed to just go on a run and

So then in relation to Marcus Rashford then, we want to see him at a club ball somewhere where he can have the ball put in front of him and sprint away from a defender. I think Joey's been knocked out of him for different reasons because you couldn't accuse United of being over-organised in recent years or over-systematised. But I think he's a similar burden in terms of carrying a team and feeling that, I suppose, almost taking risk out of his game because...

it's just scary being at Manchester United they all feel it yeah so I would love I would love him to rekindle that somewhere I mean he's someone that was trained United had this fascinating way of training kids in the sort of Fergie era where they wanted to still create street football and Rashford was one of the last kids of that era and what they would do on a Wednesday afternoon is they'd put kids of all ages 18 year olds down

down to 13 year olds into a gym hall and just get them to almost play a crowded sort of playground style game and Rashford was doing that with people like Paul Pogba and Ravel Morrison and the older kids and that's what forged him you know that's the spirit that he once had that he's lost so Martin's completely right wherever he goes shouldn't be for the money it should be

it should be for the joy in the football and I think United might have to help that happen as well by taking a financial cut as well as him and

Wouldn't it be lovely to see that back? It would. It certainly would. It won't be the last time we'll talk about Marcus Rashford, I am sure. We talked about how stories have broken this week. Another story that was breaking just before we came on this podcast. The Friedkin Group has completed its takeover of Everton and vowed to restore the club to, and I quote, its rightful place in the Premier League table. Not sure where that is. We can debate that in just a second. 16th.

Now, now. It's a good day for Everton. A significant day for the Goodison Park Club, the US group, as Paul Jorcey's writing, owned by billionaire Dan Friedkin, announced it struck a deal to end Farhad Moshiri's tumultuous eight-year reign. Johnny, your reaction to this? A big day for Everton. We've known about this for a long time, this takeover. We've had other takeovers that have been mooted, but to finally get this done is a big day for Everton fans. It's great news for Everton. It's news that their long-suffering fan base have...

have deserved for so many years because this isn't just the last year of Mashiri trying to sell the club and you know the terrible spectre of 777 partners almost taking over with all their kind of what they represent but you know the last couple of years of the Mashiri era really since the sanctions against Russia

you know, and the initial splurge of 800 million quid and then the money tap being turned off, Everton have sort of lived hand to mouth throughout that time. I think the statement from the Friedman group mentions resilience and that's what the club has survived on, on the pitch and off the pitch. Incredible, incredible,

and fight from supporters and players not always pretty on the pitch but got there and you know these are stable respected sports owners and let's hope I don't think they're going to splurge a lot of money if you look at the record at Roma but

they will provide some stability and hopefully with a new stadium. Yeah, and look, I think there is a rightful place for Everton in the Premier League. I think it's the top half, definitely. They are, to me, a big club. But maybe that's because I'm a man of a certain age. Martin, your reaction to this news? I'm very pleased for Everton. I'm very pleased for Everton because they can begin to go forward now. I mean, it's extraordinarily limited what the free cream...

group can do at the moment. They've already said that because of the PSR. But they have got this new stadium, as Johnny says, that they'll have from the start of next season. Yeah, absolutely. But it's still going to be limited. And they've admitted that. And in many ways, I think it's wonderful that it's got over the line because you do wonder when you see, say, Newcastle and you consider the wealth of the Newcastle ownership,

you consider what they have been able to achieve which in real terms is nothing you know they got into the Champions League which was wonderful they've got to a final they're in a semi-final that's all great it's better than they've done for a number of years but in real terms it's you know

the establishment have got Newcastle exactly where they would want them, which is mid-table. Which we'll talk about in the second half of the show, of course. And so you do look at somewhere like Everton, you think, OK, when you say we'll get Everton where they deserve to be, well, that's got to be balanced with where they can be. Easier said than done. Yeah, where they can be and where they're allowed to be.

I don't quite understand why extremely wealthy people buy football clubs anymore. I really don't. No, I don't. In the current climate, because the fun is let's have a go. The fun is let's try and be Man City or let's try and be Chelsea. I don't understand why you would invest in a football club. But investments are Martin. I mean, look at the Glazers. They're going to make 10, 15 times what they play. Yeah, I can understand it from like...

the money if you think you can make money out of it but in terms of the part of it the fun the joy the fun the joy the glory you know to quote Danny Blanchard the game's about glory I don't understand where that is anymore Mike Ashley bought Newcastle

to have a bit of fun that's what he actually bought it for that's what he imagined himself doing on a Saturday afternoon didn't end up very fun no it ended up no fun whatsoever and he ended up trying to run it like it was Sports Direct and everyone hated him but

But actually, when he bought it, and the reason he did zero due diligence, really, and all of the things that you would think that a very wealthy guy would do, he did none of that, because actually, his motivation for buying Newcastle wasn't to flog a load more T-shirts for Sports Direct. It was to get up there with his mates, watch his football team, and have a laugh. You know? And...

And certainly, you know, a few years later, it became a branch of Sports Direct because he realised you couldn't do that. You couldn't actually have a laugh because there was, you know, you were competing against...

these billionaires and he didn't have the money for that. Now it's another stage where even if you are a billionaire, you can't have the fund that you used to because someone goes, ah, yes, but what have you generated? Yeah, but we're trying to get to somewhere where we can generate a lot of things. And that's why I look at the Friedkin Group and think, I totally take Johnny's point,

Yeah, maybe you can make some money out of it. But it's not the same as when someone bought a football club and went...

Right, let's have a go. Jack Walker didn't buy Blackburn to make a few quid. He bought Blackburn to see if he could win the league with his local team. Certainly different times, but better times at least, we hope, for Everton. You're talking about having a laugh. They've not had many laughs in recent years. Hopefully they'll be having some in their new stadium. And you can read more about this deal and the background to it with an excellent in-depth piece from Paul Joyce on the Times website.

website now Martin you mentioned Newcastle briefly in there we're going to talk about them in part two but it means it's time for a break it's time for the favourite moment of Martin Samuel's week yeah you've got the sweets no sweets you've got to get the question right first Martin that's the rules who am I talking about when I say a former footballer who played as a striker for Everton and Manchester United and also played for Fulham Tottenham and Sunderland find out after the break

Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clarke and I've got Tony Cascarino, Martin Samuel and Johnny Northcroft with me. And it was Johnny Northcroft who came in straight away with the answer. You also put your hand up as well, Johnny, which is very rare for this lot. Well, you've been telling Martin off a lot. You've got a bit of a teacher vibe today. I have, yeah. Put your hand up, yes. And the answer was, Jonathan? Louis Saha. Louis Saha. Wonderful. What a great player. Have you had a week, by the way, that no one's got it? No.

Yes, we had a week once where I think it was a Gregor, Rudd, Hamza combination. And Hamza hadn't even heard of who I was talking about because it was someone from 2004 and he didn't even know who I was talking about. Yes, but no, very good run so far from everyone performing very well this season. Now, earlier this season, this year, we had a surprising and rather important revelation from the House of Lords. And fans of football and politics will be delighted to hear that we've got another little Christmas treat this year.

Martin Ziegler reporting on the Times website that Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman would have to go through the new tougher owners and directors test because of their ownership of Newcastle United, a government minister has told the House of Lords. We cross now live to our House of Lords correspondent, Martin Samuel, to tell us more about this story on the Times website, which came out last night with a little bit of help from yourself, Martin. No, he won't. No, he won't. Because what happened was,

Oh no, he won't. He's like Panto season. Mohammed Bilsaman will have to go through. Baroness Tricross came in and announced that the Crown Prince would get his collar felt if he did anything that didn't abide by UK regulations. And if he did, he would then fail the owner and director's test. And then Newcastle would be taken off him.

At which point, I don't know whether she went back to her office and there was a phone ringing or she got a message in her ear and she got the, what the frigging hell have you just said, phone call.

Because, by all accounts, she then went back, and it was Lord Moynihan who had asked the question about Newcastle and the owner of Knight's Test, and passed him a handwritten note that said, I might have to clarify our position on this. Because if Keir Starmer is out in Saudi Arabia, as he was very recently, rattling his little tin because we're skint, which we are,

I don't really see us coming over all masterful and taking Newcastle back from Saudi Arabia, bearing in mind that the only reason Newcastle got Saudi Arabia, the only reason Saudi Arabia got Newcastle in the first place was because of the extreme amount of back-channeling that was being done with the previous government. Mm-hmm.

putting enormous amounts of pressure on the Premier. This is the big myth of government regulation, is that it will all be more rigid and tight and we'll crack down on this and crack down on that, when the reality of it is we are not going to upset Saudi Arabia. We are not going to upset the UAE.

You know, and really, until they invaded Ukraine and it became a matter of international diplomacy and, you know, people banging on about the Third World War and stuff like that, we weren't actually going to do too much about Vladimir Putin. No. You know, I think you'll find the Salisbury poisonings didn't affect Abramovich's ownership of Chelsea whatsoever. So it was only when...

World War, you know, the preamble to World War III was kicked off in Ukraine that we suddenly went, yeah, okay, maybe. Maybe these Russians aren't the best people to have owning our football clubs. So...

As you said, Martin Ziegler writing in slightly more delicate terms, Martin, than yourself, but the statement is a potentially huge embarrassment for the government. One peer involved in the debate said it was a farce. Yes. The farce is, oh, we're going to do something, and then a very, you know, what used to be called in journalism... Quick backtrack. What used to be called in journalism reverse ferret.

It still is. They still shout that in the office all the time. And I've never known what it meant. No, no. I mean, I can remember hearing that for the first time nearly 30, 40 years ago. Yeah, so it was a bit of a reverse ferret, shall we say. And there's the level of...

The level of governance we can all expect. Government involvement in football. I do love our little note saying I may have to clarify. It's very yes minister. It's very good. Imagine if footballers did that with referees. I'm sorry, I might just have to clarify that tackle.

I really didn't mean it. Well, the referees try to do it all the time. Yes, that's true. They do. We're heading into a different debate altogether. But we were talking about Newcastle. Let's speak about the football now. We were talking about politics. Let's leave that to one side. They made it through to the Carabao Cup semi-finals with a 3-1 win against Brentford. Sandro Tonali with two...

including a first what a lovely lovely strike it's such a special special goal Tony did you ever hit one like that clean as a whistle you know I didn't I don't know you know I didn't you're always slagging me off for not knowing enough about your career well obviously you went to me straight away headers at the back post you were all about yeah yeah yeah we can talk about those another time not even in training not even in training because you were too busy in the box too busy working hard for your teammates but this is a big moment for Newcastle this is a good chance for them to win a trophy Johnny and

we've talked a lot in the summer there was discussion around Eddie Howe how he'd taken this Newcastle team how did he take them as far as he can go etc as Martin quite rightly said with the ownership model and the rules that are in place at the minute they can't just go out and buy Kylian Mbappe like everyone thought they could when they took over into the semi-finals of a cup competition a huge opportunity for them yes it's a brilliant opportunity isn't it and

you know, they've got a chance for a second final under him, which on top of the Champions League shows the sort of job he's done. And, oh goodness me, yeah, I think the League Cup has had a real renaissance in the last 10, 15 years. It's produced really good,

good football good semi-finals good quarter-finals why do you think that is do you think that's Pep Guardiola and Jurgen Klopp taking it seriously yeah a bit of that a bit of the time at which it's played probably helps it slim down a little bit

City's dominance elsewhere as well. City's dominance elsewhere, exactly. City's dominance elsewhere where, you know... Gives you a chance to win a trophy. Other clubs go, well, we need to try and win this because this lot are going to... More managers think they have to go. Yeah, because this lot are going to win 22 games on the turn and win the league. So we need to win something else. Yeah, I mean, but do we think this Newcastle team...

we've discussed them a lot this season and I discussed it with Martin Hardy who covers the club sometimes struggling to score goals and then last night from the extended highlights that I've watched you've got Anthony Gordon flying at defences Sandro Tonali getting in the box you start to think no they've got everything they need to be competing at this level with the teams that are in it Liverpool through of course Arsenal through and one of Tottenham or Manchester United later but

They've got everything they need to win this trophy, haven't they, Tony? Yeah, they're a dangerous side. When they get their best XI out there, they can hurt you and they can get goals. Isaac's a tremendous player. They've got Gordon one side. They can play Harvey Barnes. By the way, Jacob Murphy's gone on leaps and bounds this season. He's like 29. I was like, wow, he's 29 years old now. But he's really come on. I think what makes it really exciting for this year is that

You look at the semi-final, whether who wins out, Man United and Tottenham, you've got Arsenal there, you've got Liverpool there winning at Southampton, Newcastle. So it's going to be four mega clubs in the semi-final. And I think that just adds to the prestige. But also four mega clubs where Pep Guardiola and Manchester City aren't one of them. And that's not pointed at Manchester City and Pep Guardiola, but it just, for us as journalists and for neutral fans, as well as the fans of these clubs, there are storylines to attach to. Arnie Slott, first season, Eddie, how can he do it?

You know, Ruben Amorim or Ange Postacoglu, Tom, you know, might need a trophy. I think it's a real narrative there, absolutely. Real excitement. I mean, does that, do we think as well, to Johnny's point, Martin, about early in the season, in terms of the final being, does that help this trophy? Possibly. Maybe the interest greater than the FA Cup, for example. Well, Newcastle got there a couple of years ago and didn't really turn up. So, I'd really like Newcastle.

to win it because I've never seen him win anything you honestly have just answered the question I was about to ask before I asked it we are vibing this season absolutely but I'll use the same analogy I always use about John Peel and John Peel being asked what sort of music he wanted to hear he said I just want to hear something I've never heard before and that's what I've often felt about music and it's certainly what I feel a lot of the time about sport I want to see something I've never seen before yeah

And I've never seen Newcastle win a trophy. Until...

when they beat Brentford before that I would have said if you'd have said who would you like to win the League Cup I'd have said Brentford because I've never seen Brentford win anything either and it's been going back a long time and I think it's a fabulously run club and I'd love to see Brentford win something but Newcastle have knocked them out so you're after a Newcastle Tottenham final are we this is what we're heading towards I'm joking joking joking so

It doesn't matter, does it? I mean, I just like to see, you just see, you know, I know Newcastle fans, you know, I've got Newcastle fans who are friends and you just think, I'd like to see them win something. And people were very, very well disposed when my team won something a couple of years ago because they went, oh, you haven't won anything for so long. And I thought that was very nice.

And I feel the same way about other people's football teams. The guys that have never been able to have proper fun at a Wembley final or anything like that,

I'd like to see that happen for them. Well, it's not looking good for Liverpool fans, is it? Sorry, guys, even though you've made it through to the semi-final. Another impressive win, though, for Arnie Slott, which makes all these changes. Alisson, Mohamed Salah, Virgil van Dijk, Luis Diaz, Ryan Gravenbatch, Dominic Sabozlai, Curtis Jones, all out of the squad, not even leaving them on the bench to let the cavalry come in to rescue them. Tony, you must be absolutely loving life as a Liverpool fan this season.

Yeah, well, I was at the Arsenal last night watching them against Crystal Palace and all the reactions of the Liverpool team coming through and I was like, they're not even on the bench. When it was Arsenal, they had nearly all their main players. Fergie always used to do that, didn't he? Fergie always used to do that, Tony. He'd go to Milton Keynes or somewhere like that. He'd still have Cristiano Ronaldo on the bench just in case. Giggs and Scholes would be there just in case. We can imagine the whole of the talk was...

oh, fancy Southampton tonight. Yes. That was a conversation around, everybody was sort of saying, what a golden... That was a conversation in the office as well, but this is something Liverpool have done last season under Jurgen Klopp, and it's, I mean, I think it's a good, we've talked about how good Arnie Slott's PR is, this is another belting move, isn't it, Johnny? Bringing some more kids through. Fans love to see young talent, don't they? Yeah, I mean, brilliant night for, there's nothing better than getting through in the Kop when you've played a lot of your kids, and...

But also, if you're Arnie Slott and you're asked who do you really want to come to form a little bit, he'd have probably given you Darwin Nunes and Harvey Elliott as absolutely his two top priorities. And of course he had Federico Chiesa coming off the bench, one of his only signing really in the summer. Yeah.

who hasn't played at all is a player that you really loved Tony wasn't he yeah he's best he's out of a player that's probably more of Richard Hughes' side yeah but it's still important though in this congested period very important

even Endewitt's centre-backs amazing that's an interesting one but you know I thought that was one of those where the BBC line-ups had got the line-up wrong I was like there's no what is he actually going to play centre-back that's amazing he is a bit of a pep disciple isn't he Slott it was a kind of pep-ish sort of move wasn't it to stick a kind of

It's great when it works. Isn't it? It makes you seem like everyone's a genius. Just wanted to quickly ask on Southampton, obviously making the decision to part ways with Russell Martin after the weekend's defeat against Tottenham. I asked this question on Monday and I just want to quickly get your views now. Are they in a state of position in the Premier League where, and we've had this before with Southampton, where their next choice is like signing a player in January where you sign a player that will be good in the Championship as well as give you maybe a little bit of hope.

or do they be going hell for leather for an experienced coach who can get them in the league? Lots of different people being linked with the job. Sheffield Wednesday's Danny Roll, for example, being one of them. Where do we think they're at in terms of the decision that they make now, Jon? Yeah, Danny Roll's a very logical choice because he's, you know...

Young plays a great brand of football up and coming and is already in the championship doing great things with Wednesday and I agree with that premise that it has to be somebody that's it's now become a sort of

two year project hasn't it you know probably will go down it's worth having a go to stay up of course and then you're looking at another year and then coming back stronger with the Premier League money is the most realistic thing and of course they're run by Rasmus Ancrum the ex-Brentford guy who will be thinking in those kind of longer term ways so that will be better for them I think than trying to

for some ridiculous short-term appointment. You think that'll do more harm than... Well, they're in such a bad position that actually, you know, if they bust in Sam Aldous or Roy Hodgson, it is such a difficult mission that you might just be... And then that manager would then want...

signings that probably don't fit the longer term plan so yeah but also you look at how easy not easy but you look at the championship this year and what it's been like in previous years the relegated teams have got a brilliant chance of coming straight back absolutely yeah those parachute payments always have a massive part to play Tony you mentioned that you were at Arsenal they were the other team to go through to the semi-finals

1-0 down early on. What was the mood like in the Emirates? I mean, because I had some friends there as well. They were very quiet on the old WhatsApp chat until Gabriel Jesus came to the rescue. Been going through a little bit of a difficult period. That 0-0 draw against Everton, far from ideal for their title chances. Was there a bit of...

unrest in the stadium at that first goal? No, not at all. I mean, the Palace fans were incredible because they get a larger portion of the tickets to be in a cup game. And of course, they led early on. I think there was a little bit of edginess around Arsenal. They didn't quite look right as they were set up.

And, I mean, look, you said that. Again, changes, too many changes. Odegaard coming on was completely the change. I mean, I wrote a piece about him earlier in the season and he just... Everyone's had a go at Martin Odegaard. It's just like, you know, he sees this pass that he does so often in the game, it's between people. So, like, the ball isn't to the wide man or to the centre-forward, but he wants to stick it right in the middle where it's in between the winger and the centre-forward position and they get it and turn.

And he does it brilliantly. It's like, wow, how does he keep getting that ball spot on? And of course, Saka came on on the right. Trossard was good in the first half. Sterling had a couple of moments. Not particularly great at the back, Arsenal, but then they've had injuries there. Tierney went off and got... I mean, it was amazing. It was a great game. Second half was great. It really was. Gabriel Jesus is typical to me of the striker who lost belief. Yes. Because...

he's got a long time without scoring as good a player as he is and what he's won you just saw in a moment why the buses kept coming you know like the first goal comes and the second and third finish were really great goals I wanted to ask you about that because it gives us a nice cyclical element to this podcast talking about Marcus Rashford and lack of confidence and things like that because

Because I was going to ask you about those goals. The second one, great finish, a proper striker's finish, a cross goal into the bottom corner. And the third one, of course, had a long time to think about it. And maybe he's been a player that's been maybe accused before of being a more reactionary player. He can't do that kind of deadly thing of running in on goal, clean through. I've got to think about it. I start thinking, oh God, I'm going to put it wide. Too much time. But you think that actually this could be a bit of a season-defining moment for him to get Hatchet. It's a massive weight off his shoulders.

because that's what's been happening to him and when he gets in these one-on-one positions he's missing more often and he's not been clinical enough. The difference between... I mean, strikers always have to have belief and confidence. I suffered with it. I got better as I got older. I worked with...

Sorry, I'm going to drop a name. Jean-Pierre Papin. I'd done training sessions with him. He said to me once, come and do some training with me, extra training, and we'll work on your finishing. And I'm like 33, like 32, 33. I'm thinking, bloody hell. I feel like a young lad. But we'd done all these different drills. Some of them I'd never done in my career again afterwards as well, which was basically placing balls on cones at different heights and hitting these golf balls.

eventually see where they go and hit these trick shots he was showing me stuff off cones on the top of cones different heights different heights and how to get the ball to go down and stay low like a proper high cone yeah well some of them would be like say a foot off the ground then there'll be sort of 15 inches 20 inches and then there'll be the real hard one which is to get your leg right over and hit the ball but you keep it low and I've

I remember talking to him about this and he talked about one-on-ones. And he basically was trying to get to me that you have to make the decision

Not the goalkeeper. Make your decision. He said, that's how most people miss. And it sort of resonated with me because I had the famous, I had one in my career with Neville Saffold, which was a one-on-one, which Neville made me make the decision and I ended up putting wide of the post. But he said, you take the initiative and you make the decision. If you miss, you live with it. But you've got to try and make your decision. And there's a real skill in one-touch and two-touch finishing.

Some people just know when to take a touch and when not to. The great strikers, if you watch Jimmy Greaves, and these boys are... Jimmy Greaves' finishing was unbelievable. And I also played with Clive Allen, who was similar, where he could finish from anywhere. But his decision-making, one and two touch, finishing, and I see that all the time with strikers now. The ones that are in that bit of a dark place on their finishing, they'll try and be so precise. Mm-hmm.

you can score scrappy goals you don't have to hit it perfectly all the time and do you think just finally on Jesus do you think he can take this forward now into this season it is Christmas after all sorry should have done it should have gone with the proper pronunciation I don't know I don't know because it's look doing it against Crystal Palace in the League Cup

great for him. It certainly is. He won't be in the line-up at Selworth Park, I guarantee. Right. It'll be Havertz down the middle. So, he then goes back to the bench. It's not going to be a case of, well, he's going to play, oh, I'm not changing that winning team. I guarantee you he'll find himself out the team at the weekend. So, he's got to be clinical on a regular basis, which he hasn't been at Arsenal. Yeah. Well, Arsenal into that semi-final with a chance to win a trophy. And I just wanted to finish with

a conversation around trophies, because that gives Mikel Arteta, of course, a chance to win a second trophy, or, as he would have it, a fourth trophy. Earlier on, he was talking about, he was asked a question in a press conference about how winning that one trophy, and he snapped back, Jose Mourinho style, actually, I've won three, because I've won two Charity Shields as well. So I just wanted to get your views, because I've always been fascinated about this, and I've never known what my esteemed colleagues think. Charity Shield, trophy or no trophy?

Well, it's a shield, not a trophy. Oh, it depends. Depends. I think you can claim it as a trophy. You've won the league and things like that, and you can then add it to your total like Jose did. Jose changes this, by the way. Jose changes this. Jose is the first manager to start talking about the charity shield.

as if it was a trophy. A competition to win, yeah. And then others like Pep picked up on it and he started talking about it as if it was a trophy as well. And you can understand that because on the continent, it is. On the continent, the annual competition between the winners of the league and the winners of the cup is always regarded as a trophy in the same way

that the European Super Cup is always regarded as a trophy. Julio said to the Liverpool players that he took the League Cup seriously for them because he was going to pick a reserve team in the final and all the English contingent went nuts about it. He said, I took the League Cup seriously for you. You take this one seriously for me. Right. When they beat Bayern Munich. Right. He said, I'm going to send out a proper team and I want you to take it seriously. And they defeated Bayern Munich in the Super Cup. So...

But I do think if you've won one FA Cup and that's going back, what is it now, five years nearly? Five years nearly? I think you're clutching at straws a little bit to be claiming two charity shields as well as that. Or if you finish second in the league because the same team has won the league and FA Cup. Yeah, do you know what I mean? It's sort of...

that one, that version of it seemed a little bit like clutching at straws. When Jose was claiming it and when Pep was claiming it, he's also claiming league titles and the Champions League and stuff like that. And he had to, no,

alright okay you want to hold that on as well alright you know don't be greedy Johnny Tony trophy or no trophy not for me Johnny's not having it here we go not for me dour scoff I mean Mark makes a good point because we are forever counting the Spanish Super Cup and the German Super Cup we do but

I just look at the game it's never played with intensity it's recently been always penalties always penalties loads of substitutions it's a lovely day out that speaks to the past of course it's a community shield that you know it raises money doesn't it but it's

No, I think you judge the game by how seriously it really is taken and until the teams play it like a proper match then I won't take it that seriously. They do take the Super Cup as usually an intense game. And I'd just like to make one point. We do sort of do this and it's a very good point Johnny makes there that you

you know we take these the foreign versions of it I mean I've lost count of how many Portuguese managers I've heard oh they won the he won the cup and he won this and you you know that cup competition you know where they play that don't you they play that at the training ground the England U now it's the low it is it is where Celtic won the first British European Cup so it was once a

a big it's one it's only got three sides this stadium that they play this cup final and it's only got three sides in the middle of a flaming forest it's got it's got a stand on three sides behind the goal I think behind the goal is trees right

And you always hear, oh, he won this, he won the League Cup or whatever. Tony, for casting vote then. I'm claiming everything. I'm claiming everything. Championship with Millwall. I won, we got a trophy. That's a league account. Yeah, yeah. Give me that. It's like a proficiency. St Kitts Poker Championship, I got a trophy in the Caribbean. Nice. Five aside for Aston Villa. We won at NEC. I won Player of the Tournament.

top goal scorer got a thousand pound bonus and the trophy and Graham Taylor told me afterwards I had to share it between the other players so I couldn't even get the brand on myself and the Makita I won the Makita as well do you remember the Makita was it a Pokemon no Makita is this the one where you scored your hat trick for Chelsea X on them at

Tottenham. And they're very good goals. I'm claiming everything. And you can find them on YouTube listeners if you want to find it. Tony Cascarino, Chelsea against Tottenham in the Makita. I've got my gold swimming. Fade out, Neil. I don't want to wear the jimmies. I want to wear the pyjamas and do the life-saving. Yeah, the Toffee Club. Fade out. I won that. Join us again. By the way, this is from the man who, what did you say early on? The trophy? Oh, careful. You said something about the

What? You did consider it a trophy when it was the League Cup. Because Newcastle hadn't won anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, they haven't won. Well, it's interesting with Newcastle. We'll be back on... No, hold on. They'll still be here. This is absolutely serious about football. Because Newcastle won the Fairs Cup, didn't they? I was going to say that. And no one counts it anymore. UEFA don't count it anymore. It's not me. I haven't... They didn't, so they had won a trophy. I was four.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't blame Martin Samuel for that. There's lots we can blame him for, including eating sweets on the podcast, but we're not going to blame him for that. I joked at the start about one more thing and we got all the way through to the end and then you started again. Martin Samuel, Johnny Northcroft, Antonio Cascarino, it's been an absolute treat to have you here. Thank you two for you for listening. We will be back on Monday. We'll see if there's some sweets around as well.