Unstoppable corners and managers under pressure…
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Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. Well, they say a week is a long time in this sport. Well, how about three days? Man City are back, Liverpool can't hold on to a lead and Everton are brilliant all of a sudden. At least some things stay the same though, as Arsenal keep scoring from set pieces, Chelsea keep scoring full stop, Southampton keep self-destructing, Wolves keep conceding loads and loads of goals and Julian Lopetegui's woes keep continuing at West Ham.

On today's show, we'll be discussing all the midweek games so far and we have a very personal tribute to a special former manager. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me for all of that, we have the chief correspondent for The Times and Sunday Times, Martin Samuel, the former centre-forward turned columnist, Tony Cascarino, and the former defender turned feature writer, Gregor Robertson, is here as usual. Loads to discuss, chaps. Let's dive straight into St James' Park and the title race is back on.

I know, I know, Liverpool fans. You never said it was over. It was just silly, overexcited people like me that said it was over. It's all done, all wrapped up already. But this was a smashing game, wasn't it? One of the games of the season, I thought. Let's talk about Newcastle first because we've gone into a good pattern lately, haven't we, Gregor? Parking the team we really maybe want to talk about and talk about Newcastle first. But Martin Hardy, our colleague from the North East, has written recently about their struggles in front of goal. They've got all these great attacking players, Izak, Gordon...

and then they get the big team, the team that have barely conceded any goals, look brilliant, and they score three really good goals, I thought. I mean, particularly Izak's. Tony, what did you make of that first? Like, Newcastle's attacking impetus generally, but also that first goal from Izak. Well, I'll tell you what stood out for me straight away was the line-up of the Gordon on the left, Jacob Murphy on the right, and Izak down the middle. Now,

Now, he did that against Spurs at the end of last season where he went at the full-backs. He went after the full-backs against Spurs. And I think it was 4-0 in the end last season, Newcastle beat Spurs. And as soon as I saw that line-up, I thought, he's going after Liverpool full-backs. Obviously, there's injury because Bradley was out. Robinson's probably lost half a yard. As a terrific player as he is, because he is, he's an honest lad, gives it absolutely everything.

You had Kwanzaa on the right and obviously Gomez in the middle and they were going after them wide areas, Newcastle. And they caused Liverpool a lot of problems. I mean, you said in the introduction Liverpool can't hang on to a lead. They were behind twice, Tom. I know, I was being silly. I always am in the intro's tone. I'm always on the wind-up and it worked. I'm glad I got you offline and sinker. But it was a great goal where... Look, I look at Darwin Nunes and I think,

If Izak was at Liverpool, I wouldn't have a problem in saying straight away they can win the league comfortably. You know, Darwin Nunes has just not got the qualities that Izak has got. And yes, he's had his injuries, but he's such a dangerous striker. It was like watching an Alan Shearer strike, wasn't it? When he just gets his head down, pings it, and it's in the back of the net. He's such a quality forward. Liverpool weren't good. And there was another thing I mentioned as well, and Arnie Slott spoke about this after going back, Mo Salah for the first hour.

And I thought, he's absolutely spot on. He looked like he weren't in the game, couldn't get involved, make the difference. And then for 30 minutes, he's decided to keep him on because he knows his game can change, which is a really rare quality of someone who can change their game with 30 minutes to go. And for the first,

final part of the game he was extraordinary Mo Salah yeah Martin what do you make both of some of Tony's points there but just about the game in general as I said one of the games of the season yeah it was a fabulous game I started off watching the Man City game and then once they went 2-0 up

this is done and turned over and I turned over the decision making process is really tough isn't it yeah yeah yeah I got turned over by the names of the team I was like I'm going to watch Arsenal vs Man United it was a terrible decision yeah you just need multi screen just in time for the first Newcastle goal as I've turned over I had the opposite night to the one you usually have where you miss everything I think there was a Champions League night once where there was something like 16 out of 20 goals or something I didn't see one of them

and this was the opposite I turned over just as Newcastle scored their first goal then stayed with that game for the rest of it because it was so good and then turned over just before Arsenal scored their first goal so but yeah it was a fabulous game and it's just amazing how often

that fixture produces such a good game between those two teams. But also, Newcastle as well. Newcastle at home, they did it with Arsenal last season, I think, where they won 2-0. They've always got it in them to have a say in the title race and with the big teams. This is why I'm not reading too much into the fact that Liverpool dropped two points, because I don't see it as two points dropped. I see it as they got a point at Newcastle. And I know Newcastle aren't...

the force that maybe we thought they were going to be when Eddie Howe got him into the Champions League in the first full season. But it's still St. James' Park. It's still St. James' Park on a Wednesday night as well and it was absolutely flying the place. And...

I think that's a good point and I think if you know no manager will ever say that they'd shake hands and a draw before the game I think most managers would shake hands and a draw at St James' Park they wouldn't admit to it but I think they would shake hands and a draw at St James' Park before the game starts and

When we're saying about Mo Salah, I can understand why he kept Salah on, because he was bringing Trent Alexander-Arnold on. Yeah. And Trent changed the game for them. Yeah, absolutely. Without a shadow... You know, and I wrote last week, and we were talking about it last week, that he could be the one that they're looking at Connor Bradley and thinking we could sell him for a lot of money a year down the line or whatever and bring Connor Bradley in. And then you see Trent last night, and you see what he does, and you're thinking...

yeah that wouldn't be the smartest move right so we've now got alright we can't get rid of Salah and we can't get rid of Van Dijk and we can't get rid of Trent Alexander Arnold either because they're fabulous players all three of them and Trent transformed it there's moments when like most

full backs most anyone in that situation at wide just whips the ball across the face of goal he picks out the cut back on the right side of Salah so that he's able to turn it's away from the defender it's completely deliberate wasn't it I've watched it a couple of times and the pace at which he plays it as well absolutely perfect our colleague James Gibran is writing his column on Trent Alexander-Arlen which by the time you're listening to this you can read on the Times website talking about how he's the kind of talent that

don't do justice to. Ignore the stats, just watch him and you realise this guy is absolutely generational talent. But that was sort of...

one of the things that we were talking about last week, that that's the strange thing with Liverpool, that you can look at it from a statistical point of view, the main statistic being people's ages, but actually the statistics, you know, ages and projections, it's not really telling you the whole story. The story's there on the pitch when you go, right, get someone who can do what Salah does. Just try and find someone for any money who can do what Salah is doing at the moment and

And why are we presuming that he doesn't do it in the next couple of years? Why are we presuming that his legs go? I want to talk about Trent more. There are very few footballers, I think, who do things that you really haven't seen very many times before. There was a pass, I remember we came out the other day and I forgot to talk about that pass. The pass in the City game in the first half that he played...

It was like a punch shot in golf where you fire it and it swerves. It went inside. He was a defender. It was unbelievable from inside his own half. A low trajectory, inside the defender and into the path of Salah. I've never seen anyone kick a football like that. He kicks a football in a way that I've never seen anyone do it. It's like...

like that Cristiano Ronaldo thing when Ronaldo started taking those free kicks he plays passes that you've never seen and you're looking at that thinking I've never seen anyone do that and there was all these theories about he hits the sort of pump on the ball and Fergie and Quim were coming out and going you bunch of

idiots or whatever you know he spends an hour on the training field every day doing that to make sure he can do that you know there's no gimmick because what we've had in the last few weeks has been continual talk of Salah signing a new deal continual talk of Van Dyck and even less of Trent which still amazes me because he's the one he's got still lots of years to play football yeah but it's probably more obvious answer to that is because there's a lot of people trying to get him yeah

And whether it's Barcelona, Real Madrid, whoever, PSG, whoever, that there is so much interest in him. And that's the quiet story. It's been really about more Van Dijk than Salah. Oh, absolutely. Because, I mean, it's quiet and it's not because Real Madrid are now doing their usual where things are getting leaked through...

the papers that they'll only sign him on a free and that's you know now look I'm sure they can tell his agent that in a private phone call but they're making sure that's out in the public domain don't sign your contract don't sign your contract we'll get you on a free don't sign your contract you've got to remember that if a free transfer isn't actually a free transfer it just means exactly it just means that a lot of the money

goes to the individual and to his agent rather than, you don't give them as much money as you would give the club, but you give them plenty of money. And so if Trent does decide to leave Liverpool, the absolute smart thing, in fact, the only thing to do if he's going to leave Liverpool is to go on a free because the financial package would be

so much bigger than if he was to sign a new contract and then be sold for 80 million, 100 million in a year's time or whatever. What I learnt from moving abroad that some countries sign on fees are when you sign. Right. It's not over the duration of your contract. Yeah. You know, which happens here. You know, I don't know all the countries, but I know a good majority of European clubs will go, well, if they're paying you 50 million, you get it 50 million a day you sign. Yeah.

Nice handshake when you walk through the door. Is anyone excited by the idea of Trent Alexander-Arnold going to Real Madrid? Greg, I presume not because you see less of him. Anyone think, oh, that would be exciting? Sorry, Liverpool fans, I'm not on the wind-up here, but it is. It's a huge English talent going to a huge club like Jude Bellingham. Two of them, yeah. Anyone get excited about that? The stature of it, there's...

I'm not excited about not being able to see Trent Alexander-Arnold every week in the same way I'm not excited about not being able to see Jude Bellingham in our league every week or Liam Brady and Liam Brady is one of the great forgotten talents really in English football because we only saw him for a certain... 23 when he left I think? Yeah, something like that. Quite a small number of years and then he goes to Juventus and they're not on the telly every week at that time you've got to remember. So when people talk about

The greatest British footballers... Well, he's Irish, but the greatest British and Irish footballers that we've ever had...

Liam Brady often sort of gets forgotten in that and he would have been. He would have been. I roomed with Liam when he went to Juve so I was better than him at Kaluki which is a London card game. We used to play in the room and he used to get really annoyed with me. I didn't see this coming two minutes ago. Can you explain the rules? It's a very London game but you play with two jokers and you have to get 40 points to get down and start laying your cards down and Kaluki is when you get all your cards down in one go.

Southern is playing with the Jokers, eh, Gregor? Anyway, let's get back to the game. Gregor, I wanted to ask you about a stat that Liverpool may have made three or more, three plus starting XI changes in eight consecutive Premier League matches within the same season for the first time since December 2017, and they were on a run of nine games in that case. Recently, we've talked a lot about changes. You and Hamza were talking about only five fit defenders. Yes.

Is this a case of maybe where you start to see, we've said the squad's great, the midfield's great, they can chop and change, the Bosley, Curtis Jones. Was this maybe a lesson in, oh, this is where changes can sometimes not always work. This can sometimes hurt you as a kind of precursor to this festive period that we're getting to. Yeah, but the moves are obviously reinforced. So if you've got...

Gomez has been a great player for Liverpool over I read the other day he's the longest serving player that kind of that's surprising he's about 17 year old isn't he from Charlton he's young yeah so he's been there a long time he's been really reliable and you know but he is he has a step down from Canati in the form that Canati has been in this season and Kwanzaa you know is obviously a step down from Bradley or Trent Alexander-Arnold so

there were moments in the game where you kind of saw I think Gomez gave the ball away once in the first half that gave Newcastle a chance there were moments that you saw that that was the case but there's still a pretty solid back line eh

and I don't think most teams were rotating in this game actually one of the most interesting things from a team selection point of view for me was that Newcastle got Tonali and Bruno in the same team together Hamza previewed that on Monday didn't he? I'd be desperate to see that and when you speak to any Newcastle fans you ask them about like

what they want to see most is the intensity that Newcastle played with in that game last night and Gimi Hares on the ball in midfield pulling the strings which I thought he did excellently they're a tough proposition for any team in the league when they play like that Tony finally I wanted to ask you not about Kelleher's mistake but about Fabian Schaar's finish

Because I feel like in those scenarios, ball over the top, and yes, you know, Keller has obviously come for it. It looked a little bit like someone had duped him with a leave it or something like that in the way he just kind of left it in terms of the mistake. But that finish, to slide like that and get the ball on target, never mind on target, in the goal, you'd have been delighted with that finish, wouldn't you? Absolutely. I...

As soon as it happened, I remember thinking exactly that. Kurt Keller was going to get criticised for letting the ball go or trying to... thinking that that's going to go out of play. But the finish was extraordinary. He had, what...

Less than a foot from the byline? Yeah. Tight angle. A tight angle. Well, I don't know how he done it because you cannot do that finish regular. You know, that is just one. You make contact and by chance it ends up going exactly where you're hoping it does in the bottom corner. Yeah, the fine margin. He's a very gifted centre-half. He does score a lot of goals. He's always done great goals from incredible...

positions on the range he's got a long range strike in him as well well the fine margins of a title race that keeps going and speaking of a title race Manchester City they're back in it crisis over and thanks largely to Kevin De Bruyne I'm going to read some of Paul Hurst's match report er

which introed like this.

De Bruyne's display was not faultless. One poor back pass provided Chris Wood with a golden chance to equalise, but the Belgian, who is out of contract next summer, played a key role in this victory, which ended Manchester City's seven-match winless streak. De Bruyne, Gregor, has been a big talking point. We talked about him before, about maybe being one of those players that...

falls into the category of when it goes it just goes quite quickly and you're not at it anymore he's clearly been listening to the podcast and thought I'm going to show that Gregor Robertson I can still do a thing or two I didn't name drop him in that piece did you see his interview after as well it was really blunt the way he was asked about this you know you've still got it Kevin that kind of thing and he was like yeah I've had a hair and ear problem I'm not finished yet basically that was the undertone of his reply

You know, all this stuff about an issue with me and Pep. No, I've had a hernia. I'm still in pain. I'm doing the best I can to get out on the pitch. That's basically what he's been saying. But there's no question that even a Kevin De Bruyne who can't move around the pitch quite as freely or quickly or have the same drive, he's still...

one of the most talented footballers in the league and he can still shape games he can still play passes that other people can't even see those kind of crosses that how many times have we seen it when he gets in that little kind of half space and plays a cross so that's that flat low cross in behind the back line like

You cannot defend. Things like that, no one else can do. Maybe Trent. I feel like you're starting a little theme here of my favourite passes. He's another one who kicks the ball very differently to most people. He just kind of can play with the inside of his foot and it's like a shot. He's like...

Yeah. He kicked it differently for most people. Yeah, that's what people said to him. You're more of a toe-punt kind of guy. No, sorry, that was a bit mean. But Martin, talking about maybe this game, De Bruyne, but obviously you weren't on Monday's show reacting to that defeat against Liverpool. Big moment for Manchester City and Pep, as much as they are the great side of this modern era.

a run that they've been on as they have is always a massive massive blow and we talked on Monday's show about psychologically that can get in even the greatest players minds because they're not used to it so this is important to get back to winning ways in the typical convincing fashion

Yeah, it is. But at the same time, just as Manchester City could go on a run of seven straight wins and then drop a couple of points, and that doesn't mean that that one game is more important than the seven that have gone before. Well, the same is true when the scorelines are reversed. They went seven games and didn't win, and now they've suddenly won a game. Well, whoop-dee-doo. They're at home in Nottingham Forest. So I was asking on Monday the guys whether they think this,

this season is heading a bit more towards kind of transition season like Manchester United sometimes had under Ferguson where they'd have one season where they'd finish third and then come back again obviously Pep signed a two year deal or are you in the camp of don't write them off yet lads we've got a hell of a long way to go no I'm not in the camp of I think they're in a battle to qualify for the Champions League right rather than the title it needs to get a little bit narrower before I'll think that

their good money to overtake Liverpool so I still I think it's the Champions League at the moment and looking at the way they played last night as well as losing Rodri you cannot rule out the fact that they lost that De Bruyne into Haaland way of winning matches yeah

And if they've got that back for any length of time, because you've got to remember KDB, it's not just one injury. He's had a succession of injuries over a couple of seasons now. If they can keep De Bruyne fit, well, yeah, then there's a certainty to qualify for that. There's a certainty to finish in the top four. Whether they can claw Liverpool back...

I'm not sure I'm not sure because I still think that that defence is vulnerable Yeah and I'm not sure how many games they'll set up with a midfield because essentially Grealish was playing central there were two kind of him and De Bruyne were like the 8s slash 10s and Gundogan was the holding player and there's no way that he would have lined up against Liverpool against Liverpool like that that's why he didn't even want to play Docu

didn't trust them that's why he played Nunes and Silva he thought they're more defensively minded they can tuck in and when we've not got the ball we're safer more compact

he kind of threw caution to the wind a bit in this game and it worked Doku was electric as well I mean although Kevin De Booyne stood out my god Doku was torturing them you don't think that could be approached for City now and go look remember who we are we've got some of the best players in the world some exciting players like Doku and go it's tempting when you see this but then you also have the fragility that we're talking about defensively Aki came off Akanji came off on this too so like again they're probably back to the bare bones a little bit defensively if they were looking really resolute like that

And maybe, but if you're going to play a very attack-minded midfield and you're a bit diminished in defence, I'll be brave. You have to have thought he should have made it 1-1. Yeah. Let's not forget that. As Paul Hurst said, yeah, he had a chance to read the last. I know it comes from Kevin De Bruyne. Oops, sorry, mate. I know it comes from Kevin De Bruyne, not from one of the Gundogan or whatever, but...

it still shows a sort of defensive frailty and Criswell didn't take the chance. Yeah, Kaz, just to round up, where are you, which camp are you in? Because as I said, I asked Martin about, both about the weekend and Monday's discussion around City and where they're at. Are you, like the guys, a little bit more cautious? You know, this isn't Manchester City are back just because they've beaten Nottingham Forest 3-0. Well, I felt start of the season they're the team to beat.

and was quite open about that and stayed with them. I'm just shocked of what I've witnessed over the last few, well, last couple of months. I think everybody in football, you know, it's not only being beaten, it's how they've been beaten. If you take Brighton away where they were obviously, I think, level at half-time and then Brighton second half ended up getting... They battered City at the Amex.

Really took it to them. And that was a surprise. And there's certain individuals, you can't be a good team if you can't win the ball back. And City have been brilliant at winning the ball back. Even if it was the only midfield player, even if it was the wide players, just players generally getting the ball back. We know what they can do with it.

I think the test is going to come again. Beating Forrest at home and De Bruyne is shining. Yeah, great. He's in a fabulous talent. But he has got a lot of miles on the clock. Now they go Crystal Palace away, Juve and the Champions League away and Man United at home.

So, you know, there's going to be a lot more questions answered over that period than just, say, just beating Nottingham Forest at home. Because what I've witnessed is, I think, shocked football. I can't remember a shock as big as this of a team's collapse over, you know, of course, there's a fall sometimes, but they've had a collapse in results.

and been beaten comfortably. The weekend's game was unrecognisable to a Liverpool City game. Yeah. It wasn't even... It felt like I was watching Liverpool playing the relegated team. Or a team in relegation, should I say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very interesting. Well, as you say, speaking of relegation, let's end part one with a big result at the bottom of the table. Everton beating 4-0 by Manchester United at the weekend. Got back on track with a 4-0 win against Wolves. A huge win for Sean Dyche and his team. But we have to talk mainly about Wolves. Wolves have...

36 goals conceded after 14 matches is their most at this stage of a top-flight campaign since 1964-65, when they had 40 goals conceded, a campaign in which they were relegated, whilst nine defeats at this stage is their most in a top-flight season since 2010-11. It doesn't look good for Gary O'Neill, does it, Tony? And you were talking before we came and started recording about his comments after the game sounding slightly like a man who knows his times up. Well, it felt like a conversation of...

that's me done really but you know I'll still manage the club and still do the things that are right because you know it's right for the supporters and the players and whoever but

It's been coming, hasn't it? I mean, the extraordinary thing about Wolves, Tom, is their goals four column. Yes, well, we said this on Monday, didn't we, Gregor? They're still scoring a lot of goals, apart from in this game. Yes, apart from this game. And there's defeats and there's really bad ones. Everton, the lowest scorers in the Premier League up until last night, I think, may end up getting four goals.

The writing's on the wall. I can't, I mean, you know he lives close to me. I've dropped that bombshell in a few times. That's a bombshell. Right, yeah. Well, not really. He's not going to be buying you a coffee in the coffee shop after this, Tony. I haven't seen him around the coffee place. Oh, there you go. I haven't seen him, so that's it.

Or he's avoiding you because he's like, keep talking about me on that bloody podcast all the time. Gregor, recently we talked, you know, there was a result a couple of weeks ago, I forget when, but you're like, this just shows, you know, if you stick with him... The full one. Yeah, if they stick with him... And the way, wouldn't it? Yeah. Kunya scores, if they stick with him, he's got something about him, you know, he's a talented coach. I still think he's a good coach, yeah. I just... You know...

It's not like his teams could never defend, that was one of his strengths at Bournemouth was that they were shipping goals by the bucket load. What did they lose at City? Something like 7-1 or something before he got the job. It took him a while, but eventually they became much more solid and like a real kind of transition team. And Wolves were a bit like that last season. He's lost personnel, he's got injuries, playing Lamina often in the back line, which, you know, he's a really good player, but he's not a defender.

Doesn't help when your centre half Scores two own goals Yes Craig Dawson by the way Everton's joint second top scorer Of this season I love those stats Yeah they're amazing I think I think the personnel They have defensively Is not Is not really up to it right now And that's not That's not really his fault at all So He's trying to do things To mask that I agree It looked like he was Kind of

he felt he wouldn't be surprised certainly if he was sacked before I always think as well with away fans because they are typically the most devoted the most loyal travel all over when you lose the away fans you know they always talk about Manchester United their away fans are absolutely fantastic

when you lose the away fans as it sounded like last night that's when it looks like the writing's on the wall Martin what do you make of Gary O'Neill and the Wolves situation? I thought Gary O'Neill did a very good job at Bournemouth I thought he was very unlucky to be replaced at Bournemouth no matter how well his successor has done I thought he did a very good job and you know it's a lousy result you can't say anything more than that it's a really lousy result

But they have had, at the start of the season, a run of fixtures that you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy. And it's very hard. You know, I can remember, this is going back a number of years, and apologies if I've ever said this on here before, but Dave Bassett, the year that Norwich came on,

I think they ended up coming third in the league. And he was saying that at a small club, how different that season could be because they started off 2-0 down at half-time in the very first game of the season to Arsenal and then they win it 4-2. And then they go to Carrow Road in the middle of midweek. He said, now, you've lost your first game. If that had gone 4-0, if that had carried on going in Arsenal's favour that game, 2-0 down at half-time...

He said, then you're under a lot of pressure at home. If that one doesn't go for you, then you're under even more pressure in that third game. And I know it's a lot of ifs and buts. It's a dynamic, doesn't it? But he's talking about a small club and how much confidence plays a part when you're a small club. Wolves haven't been able to play with any confidence really this season because their run was so bad at the start. They played all the good teams.

And they can't get going. They can't get going. So it's... But they did look like they were getting going. That's the thing. They had a four-game... But then it showed you how fragile it is, if you know what I mean. I'm not sure that it means that Gary O'Neill's a bad manager. I just think that Wolves fixed your list in their circumstances this season.

They started with Arsenal, then Chelsea, then had Nottingham Forest, Newcastle, Aston Villa, Liverpool, Brentford and Man City all by October. They got beat at Brentford 5-3, didn't they? Yeah, 5-3, so they start shipping goals. So you guys as former pros, do you agree with Martin's point there about the start of a season and how...

You're looking to pick up things, Tom, early on. Like I was saying, if you get the result or pick up something and you're just getting points and nudging along, it does breed a little bit more belief in the team. Without a doubt. But does that then equal that sometimes you just have to make a change because you can't keep waiting for that run to come? Or do you think that we may be, in modern football, too knee-jerk, too quick to react? Generally speaking, yes, but...

There is also some truth in what you say. There comes a point where too much water's passed under the bridge and maybe the dynamic within the changing room, the relationship between the manager and the players becomes a bit more strained and stuff. I don't even think there's signs of that because as we've said, we just saw a four game unbeaten run, a couple of really good wins. Like, they...

this is a surprise that we're getting into the period now after that game like we've got five games before Christmas which were all looking pretty winnable and now they've just been you know hammered look the bottom line is the price at the end of the season is so huge that nearly everyone's going to get sacked if you haven't you know sack them all sack them all no but it's nearly nearly the case that everyone you look at them there's going to be a period where

He's gone, he's gone, he's gone. You look at the bottom half of the table and you go, oh, there's only one manager who's left out at the bottom half of the table. You know half the team are going to be, you know before the start of the season. So I've always, and you know I've had this conversation with you, I've always been in big favour of managers should be like windows with players. You shouldn't be just shipping them out all the time. But the prize at the end of the season is so big. West Ham ball get panicky. Like they think, oh, you know, and Lopetegui,

could we go down once you go round the board members and directors and say what do you think half and half well we're going to come to West Ham in the second half of the show Gregor do you just want to finish on a point I was just also saying it doesn't help that your goalkeeper is having an absolute disaster and he tried desperately to get Josie Sye out of the team and he's been a goalkeeper who's been really good for them over the years it's a surprise but something's happened he got him out of the team I think he brought Sam Johnson Sam Johnson back he'd been injured and then

you know he has to put him back in the team and he's had a nightmare he obviously had a bit of a set to with the fans the last week in this game they sold max killman they sold max killman who was a good center half for them you know west ham have worked their magic with him i mean he doesn't look as if he could put one foot in front of the other at the moment but i mean at wolves he actually looks a fair player yeah um and they've sold him i

I just think that we do this thing now and you're looking at Wolves and you're thinking, all right then, okay, is that Gary O'Neill? Who do you think would definitely...

do a better job that you could get i'm not talking about oh we'll get the guy from bushia dortmund in you reckon um you know who can you who you get you're either going to be taken and no one wants to take a chance by the way it's not like anyone's going to go well dave challan has done a fabulous job at stockport county i know they've got money and stuff like that but he took them over in in the national league they're now on the brink of the championship

Let's get him because everyone would go, oh no, we couldn't take a chance like that. So you are literally looking at... Small Paul. Graham Potter. Graham Potter. Well, Graham Potter apart from, yeah, well maybe, or David Moyes because David Moyes is the fireman and comes in and sorts it all out.

Apart from he doesn't always. There was a couple of clubs he took over where you couldn't quite sort it out. And, yeah, you know, it's... Well, there you go. There you go, Gary O'Neill. We've given a staunch defence and by the time you listen to it, you'll be out of a job. Yeah, absolutely. I mean...

yeah we could be overtaken in the next 10 minutes this programme or maybe he'll be in charge for the big game against West Ham on Monday which we are going to talk about which everyone fancies their chances I didn't fancy Brentford did he I didn't fancy Brentford away very happy to take over West Ham one training session save it plenty of time to talk about that in part two which means we're going to take a break time for Martin Samuel's favourite part of the show when I ask who am I talking about when I say a former footballer who played as a defender for Everton Manchester City Aston Villa and Queen's Park Rangers find out

out after the break.

Richard III. Richard III. Richard Dunn III, of course, was the answer. I so thought you were going to give me a genuine answer then when you started saying Richard. I'm never going to give you a genuine answer. Why do you persist in this nonsense? Because I'm a dreamer. Because I'm a dreamer. Anyway. You're not the only one. Speaking of people who talk football fans to dream, let's talk about John Doherty, the former Millwall manager.

who died yesterday at the age of 84. Tony, he was your manager at Millwall. He signed you for Millwall and he was the man who oversaw the marvellous run to the top flight for the first time. The only manager who's taken Millwall to the top flight. You've written a lovely piece on the Times website and in the Times pages today. Tell us more about the doc.

Yeah, feisty, funny. My first meeting with John was, as I said in the piece, he asked me, did I want a drink? And I said an orange juice because that's what you're going to do in front of a new manager. This was when you'd signed, right? Yeah, when I signed. I left Gillingham and I spoke to a couple of clubs, Ipswich, Leeds...

And then I spoke to John at Millwall and I was trapped in his office and he wanted to give me a drink and he went, no, a proper drink. And then as I went to take a sip of the drink, he went, you know, you've got to be fit to drink, don't you? And I'm like, what do you mean by that? Come on.

you know, didn't really get it. What he meant was, you're going to train your socks off. So, if you do have a drink, be prepared to suffer the consequences. What did you go for? Vodka tonic, wasn't it? Yeah, vodka tonic. A little vodka tonic. So, it's his way of making you feel welcome, but also going, I've got my eye on you. Yeah, it was just him because I had lots of episodes with the doc. He was a guy that...

The fans didn't take to. He was there the season before and the Doc got a lot of stick from the Millwall fans. Because before you'd signed, I was looking up, they finished 16th the year before you'd signed. Yeah, they struggled. And then in that summer, made about, I would probably say, close to 10 sign-ins. Many, many players came in and I was one of them. And he built his own team. And there was a lot of enthusiasm for that team.

and straight away the connection was there and he made that bond work really well you know he talked about all the different patterns of play that he felt we could do and we were quite direct we'd get it out wide get it in Jimmy Carter one side we'd have Kevin O'Callaghan the other two really good wingers Georgie Lawrence as well

And then there was me and Teddy in the middle. We had two dogs in midfield of Les Briley and Terry Erlott. And the whole team was sort of built. It all worked together. Yeah, it all worked. But I want to stand out. I didn't mention you, Tom, because we spoke about him before the game. Sorry, before the newspaper article. And he came to watch when we played. It would have been about 89. He came to watch me in Ireland. We played Spain.

And we beat them 1-0. And it was on a Wednesday. And him and Frank McClintock, who was his assistant, came to the game. So...

I'm delighted to see the doc. I didn't know he was coming. He was at the game and we beat them 1-0. And we literally, it was a real typical Irish performance that time. I run my socks off. It was on the Wednesday. So I was told to come back to the club on the Friday because I had Thursday travelling to get back. And on the Friday, we're playing a big game. Obviously on the Saturday, we're in training for the first time. So it sits everybody down and says, right, we've got so-and-so tomorrow and all that. And he had his arm behind his back. And I kept thinking, what is he doing?

It's gone on for about five or ten minutes, and suddenly he's gone, and you, I want you to effing run around like you did against Spain and wear this green shirt and fight at me. And it just landed on me, and all the lads are laughing. It's like, that was his way of saying, what you did on Wednesday, you need to do it tomorrow for us. We need a result, you know? But in a fun way as well. In a fun way. Everyone was laughing. I've got this green shirt on top of my chest, and it falls to the ground. But he was literally...

you know, that's what I did in the game. But he was just generally a funny man. Yeah. I also like the story in there when you said in training, if you scored a good goal, he'd go, come here, have a sweet. Yeah, have a sweet. Sweet, well done, nice one. Give you a little sweet on the side. Have a sweet. And he loved to wind up with your teammates as well. I also like the story about calling you in for a drink. Oh, he loved that one. Midweek, have a drink, go on, pick your team, Tony. And then he'd tell your teammates who you'd left out. Well, you do training in the morning.

And then any afternoon, you'd be at home and you'd get a phone call and be like, oh, yeah, you've got to come in. So you'd think, oh, what's the problem? You'd get in, you'd then get the drink out and start talking and they'd say, right, what's our best 11 then for Saturday? And you'd go, oh, okay. And you'd say you're 11. Then as it got to Thursday and Friday, you'd start telling other players, ooh, I picked them out. But I didn't realise...

he'd done it with loads of players he'd do it with Terry Earl at Les Briley Alan McCleary all these players he would phone in randomly and go come into the office I need to have a word with you and he'd do the same thing with them so he loved that conflict of upsetting and a bit of a wind up a prank of some sort but much loved by everyone it was never any clashes everyone loved him you'll see this weekend Tom because this weekend we was already arranged to go we knew the doc was well unwell sorry we knew the doc was unwell the

that we were going to Millwall, he was going to be there and it was a tribute to Doc and that period and that time of where we had our success and the family still want it to go ahead even though John has passed away and they still want us to be there and to a man I'm sure all of us, I know a lot of them are going so I'm going to go there as well, Millwall, the weekend against Coventry, so yeah.

A tribute to John. I'm sure it'll be a special day. As I say, lots of funny stories shared there by Kaz, but do read the piece on the Times website now. It really is a lovely, lovely tribute. Back to the midweek action then, and let's go to the Emirates to talk about Arsenal's 2-0 win. As James Gearbrance writes, Arsenal's mastery of set-piece routines is a well-worn theme by now, but even by their standard, this was a clinic in the art of whipping the ball into a crowded box. Ruben Amarin on the receiving end, not knowing how to stop it. And that's my first question.

How on earth do you stop it? Now, Martin, Samuel, I know you've got strong views on how to stop it. I've got strong views. It was just a question I asked. Can you put, legally, I'm pretty sure you can, a wall in front of the kick-taker? Oh, yeah, 10 yards away. Yeah, 10 yards away, right.

So, I just wonder. I just wonder if there's a way. How many would you have flat? I don't know. I've got no idea. You know, let a coach work this one out. I'm laughing at how many. I don't know. That's not a good starting point. No, it's not. But then again, it was something that I thought of about half an hour ago. So, I'm just sitting here thinking, because everyone seems to have forgotten it's a corner.

and they've faced them all their lives and it's become like this self-fulfilling prophecy that oh Arsenal have got a corner well that must mean they score then you're thinking really you lot have defended corners all your life what have you lost your marbles here or something just very quickly because that's an interesting point that I agree with you but Gregory when you come up against a team that you know is particularly good at something

Is there a sense of where you then get crap at being able to stop it just because you think, oh God, these guys are really good? There shouldn't be. No. It should tighten your sort of awareness even more, if anything. So I was thinking, okay, so could you think about it differently? Someone said about leaving Mormon upfield, so they've got to think about you. And that's what made me think, well, could you put a wall there

And then say to your goalkeeper, you come for anything. Wherever they put it, it's your ball. We're going to stick five people out to try and block it. They bully the goalkeeper though. Sorry? They bully the goalkeeper. Yeah, but then that's a foul. They don't get the fouls. Yeah, but hold on. What they do is, they absolutely fugazi the six-yard box, don't they? Yeah. They absolutely... So...

You can't see what's going on in there. If you want to break it down, you can probably see about four fouls. But you can't actually see through the massive players that they put into it, which is how, against West Ham, who they would have murdered anyway. This is not a defence of West Ham. West Ham are useless. Save it. No, but they were. But that's how, against West Ham, Gary Neville...

And the referee, and the commentator, and nobody at all. And I'm looking at it, and I'm watching it, and I'm thinking, well, he's pushed. Pechita. He's pushed the guy that's there to cut the corner out. He's pushed him. So you think if you take out the players, you make it more obvious for a keeper? Make it obvious. You can't. You can't have four people standing on the goalkeeper, jostling the goalkeeper, and just... If...

suddenly you can see it it's the fact that you can't see what's going on it's just this mess of players it's very smart by the way it's very smart and I don't actually I don't judge it you know a push is a push and that's a foul

But there's so much holding going on. Yeah. I don't actually mind. And blocking and things like that. The blocking, this is what I mean. I don't actually mind that a team has worked out, well, if you're going to hold us, what we'll do is block you. So fair exchange, no robbery. You're trying to hold us. We're trying to block you. Everyone's illegal, so no one's illegal. Yeah. I don't know.

I can actually see that. It's when there's an actual straight-up push, which is what happened against West Ham, for the first goal, nothing else, for the first goal.

that you go, well, that's actually a foul. That doesn't come in the fair exchange, no robbery stuff. But I do wonder, because I've known coaches say, well, we leave three up. Yeah. So they've got to leave four back. Yeah. And things like that. So I do wonder, is there an out-of-the-box way of thinking about Arsenal and treating their free kicks, sorry, their corners like a free kick?

Because there's a lot of difference between trying to bend it around one man

and then trying to get it round and where you need it when there's four men and they might be jumping or something like that. I don't know. It is absolute theory. I should say copyright Nick Godden, one of our digital editors on the desk for the idea of leaving three or four men up the field just to be like, right, go on. You sure you don't want to leave a few more players back, Tony? Well, there's a couple of things I would say to that. We're talking a little bit weird and wacky here, by the way. Yeah, it is weird and wacky, but the proof is in the pudding, Tom. If you want to attempt it,

Good luck. Yeah. Okay. But, I mean, there was the idea of years gone by, don't have walls, just have players all lined on the line. Yeah. You know, could you stop free kicks going in? It was an idea that was mentioned. Now, first of all, how tall are your players you put in the wall? No, it's a good point. It's a valid point because...

when you look at walls that are outside the 18-yard box, you can tell some of them are the height of where, if it's going to go in the top left-hand corner, you stick your tallest players. So there's a few things. Do you have a man lying behind the wall as well? On the goal line? No, look, I would say, because in my day, the best team without doubt on set-piece is...

was Wimbledon any bloody played Wimbledon it was bloody hard I played against them a good few times but what you had to do is stick your biggest players with their biggest players and try and match them physically and sometimes I say it was one at the weekend I watched and I remember the goal going in but I'm trying to think who was the player marking it was Antonio no it was Antonio for West Ham yeah it was awful it was awful he's lost for the yard that was bad but I actually increasingly think you can't mark them yeah

I think it's got to be a zonal defence against Arsenal. So you don't think you go man for man? Because they run from behind. That's the cleverest part of the whole thing. Absolutely. They start way out the back stick. So to follow them through the cluster of bodies that they create and the maelstrom that they create in the six yard box and still be on front of the guy who's six foot four or whatever...

to win it at the near post is nigh on impossible so what you need is and again this is not going to be perfect either because even there were some like Kilman I think was playing as a zonal defender and he didn't move you have to attack you have to judge the flight of the ball now you've got to attack the ball

You must attack the ball. There's no easy answer, but for me, I think trying to mark them and putting their biggest man on that, I actually think that's why a lot of teams don't. You've seen sometimes some real mismatches. You say, why is he marking Gabby? You go, well, probably because all he's doing is trying to put him off. He's not going to win it against them. So, I think they're brilliant at it though because...

they create that mess and then you think it's going to go to the near post and someone just hangs out at the back post and it's not always the same guy yeah yeah yeah I haven't seen that like last night Timber wasn't it yeah no but there was a party for the second one and Masraoui was just looked like he was like dazed like completely bewildered what was going on and he just ran off the pitch in the end and he was like oh god

it was just it was you know I have sympathy for him but it was terrible marking and terrible defending he was not he was not doing anything and so there's no as I say there's no easy answer because even if you put you know you have people zonally in the box the players will run into them

They'll move them. They do that. But that might help then, to Martin's point about making the clever gamesmanship look more like a foul that will allow it to be given. Because if they're running into people rather than standing next to them for the kind of just close holding and blocking, if you run into someone... I just think it's something... We were talking about it before and it just occurred to me that...

The fact that they have thought about, you know, the fact that Jovan has really thought about this and how you do it and has created this way of delivering this dead ball and of creating a situation that makes it very, very hard to make judgment calls and everything. You think, okay, then someone, probably the set-piece coach, ironically, at every club,

Instead of getting your set-piece coach to work on your attacking set-piece that week, he's got to focus, surely, on your defensive set-piece work and go, right, OK, think of a way to outsmart Arsenal, to give them a chance.

to give them a problem. To give them a problem. Because what they're doing is they're giving everyone else a problem. How do we give this lot a problem? It's a numbers game as well. I mean, it's a bit going back, I'm going back to when Public Island, we were a very good set-piece team, defensively and offensively. But it's the numbers of good headers of the ball you have as well. They don't get out-muscled. But also the delivery. Oh, the delivery's sensational. They were absolutely outstanding balls.

Declan Rice like you know just to actually pick him out and say you want to have a go and do this no absolutely he could be one of the guys attacking it his balls were absolutely magnificent keeping your theme going of the episode mate about passes passes that you love to see yeah like the trajectory of it the pace the dip like

The one for the near post was brilliant, but also some of Saka's too that kind of go right up and over. I don't want to rain on your parade, but I think the wall idea would... He'd just stick it over the wall. That's what I was asking you guys. That's what I was asking you guys. Could you do it? That's why you can only commit a couple at best. But would that not... Would it not hurt his range?

I don't know. I think... Potentially, the near post one. Potentially. I don't know. It's a conundrum. Maybe you've got views... It's just one of those things that you look... When you used to see Roy De Lapp take throw-ins for Stoke or whatever, and you used to look at it and think, why is that so impossible to defend against? It's a bit like the corner start line. But I think...

People got it into their heads about Roy de Lappe's throwing. Certainly Arsenal did because it was always carnage when they played Arsenal. They caused mayhem, didn't they? Yeah, absolutely. And you think, but it's only a bloody throwing. I mean, you know, it's a very good throwing, but it's a throwing nonetheless. Maybe you've got better views than us to share. If you've got ideas on how to stop Arsenal, tom.clerk at thetimes.co.uk. Greg, a final word from you? They had more shots from corners than open play. Yeah.

like you know there's almost a little bit of a narrative kind of emerging now about you know are Arsenal like playing for them are they are they I think because that's what I would that's what Amram suggested last night he was like you get the ball to Martinelli and Saka they go down the line and they know that if they get a corner they've got a chance of scoring so it's like and also like is this I saw Hamza tweeting about it last night even he was like you know is this almost like are we getting towards too much like NFL style football do we want to see more we want to see more open sequence like adventure

Arsenal didn't really do that much to hurt Man United in open play until they went ahead and then the game opened up and they looked better. What you would say in Arsenal's defence, you can look at it and go it's like Wimbledon or I'd rather Liverpool win the league because the football's nice or whatever but what Arsenal have got with that is a

a way of winning football matches if a team tries to stop them. Now, last night, Manchester United were set up in a very organised way and there was a definite, you know, nil-nil at half-time. Everyone was patting Manchester United on the back and, well, that's solid. And then Arsenal have done them with two set pieces in the second half. So it's like, OK, you can try and stop us playing. Because when...

Against Sporting Lisbon? Yeah. They annihilated them. Different ways of winning. They've got different ways of winning. Playing fabulous football. It wasn't set pieces against Sporting Lisbon. They played...

A lot of teams are not going to let them play like that. So, okay, you want to do it like that? We'll kill you from a corner. South Africa in rugby. Yeah. If you love your rugby, what about South Africa? Yeah. That's how they won. Absolutely. Different ways of winning. Gregor, just very quickly, because you said you watch this game closely. A quick word from you on Amarim and Manchester United. A real test for them, obviously. Yeah, I think there was actually some positive things to take. The...

they kind of closed space they didn't look like you could drive a double decker bus through their back line anymore or through the midfield there was moments in the first half too although there was a stat I think after 25 minutes where they hadn't had a touch in Arsenal's penalty box so that underlined that the final bit was still missing but the back three were all pushed right up well into Arsenal's half to try and support and be the base for constructing attacks

they still need as I say they still need the creativity but there were signs I thought there were signs of like you know after a few weeks you see what he's trying to do and you see some organisation and that was clear against Ipswich wasn't it that was the wasn't the greatest game of football against Ipswich his first match but straight away you looked at it and went

Right, okay. There's a shape here. There's a shape. I know what they're about. Whereas before, you didn't really. Yes, I think that's what a lot of Manchester United fans, some that I've spoke to, have said. It looks at least like they know what Ruben Amarim is trying to do, even if it doesn't always sometimes work. You definitely know what Southampton are trying to do, and it definitely doesn't always work. Conceding more goals in their defeat against Chelsea, more calamitous mistakes from them. Very quickly, Stephen's red card for pulling Kukurela's hair. Red card? Yes or no? Gregor?

Yeah. Yeah? Pull someone's arm, it's not a red card. Pull someone's hair, it is. Pulling hair is different, but...

Anything you don't stop, you encounter. I just think it's stupid and there's also precedent. It's happened before. And the guy got away with it, didn't he? I was watching Liverpool. Someone pulls your hair, Tone. How would you have taken it back in the day? Well, I'd love them to pull me hair now. It's waving goodbye. I've got to wave my hair. It's waving goodbye. You've got enough of it. Yeah, you can't pull someone's hair. No, fine. Chelsea then. Sancho and Kunku among the goals.

this is again another reason why people are maybe getting a little bit excited about this team because we talked about them signing so many players but it

Games at this time of the season when you want to make changes, rest players, the fact that they've got these players able to come off the bench, Tony, and look like they can score and produce makes them a dangerous proposition, doesn't it? Yeah, because he's got so much choice. And I've watched Chelsea probably four or five times live this season and come away every time thinking this is an approving team. And the players...

You could probably predict his best 11. You could probably go with it and get it nine times out of ten. But he's also wanting more. Madawake, you know, he questioned him. He's had a really good start to the season, but he wants more from him. And he's like others at the club. So it's quite an interesting way of looking at Chelsea because...

I didn't think they would make Champions League football at the start of the season. In recent weeks, you're looking at a team that could easily make Champions League football now with the amount of talent they've got. Nkuku's a great talent. Saw him a lot. He's missed a lot of football since he joined Chelsea over the last year and a bit.

If he comes into the fold, he's a talented lad. And they've got loads of... I mean, Cole Palmer was extraordinary. It felt like a one-man team last year. It doesn't feel like that this year. No, absolutely. That definitely helps Chelsea's cause. Let's finish by talking about West Ham. We've already mentioned them a few times. As we say, they've got that big game against Wolves on Wednesday.

Monday coming up but defeat against Leicester and Ruud van Nistelrooy Martin I was talking to Charlotte Dunker our colleague who was match reporting on this game and she said a couple of interesting observations she said if Steve Cooper had still been in charge they wouldn't have won this game it just felt like one of these kind of Ruud van Nistelrooy was there things went for Leicester because the other thing is that West Ham created quite a lot of chances had a

slightly soft soft goal ruled out 51 shots yeah remarkable which has been a big problem for them this season Julian Lopetegui we understand is part of the West Ham hierarchy certainly considering his future which is not surprised

How is it always so specific with West Ham? The channels to West Ham's boardroom are remarkably open, aren't they? We'll give you a percentage, guys. We're 60-40 right now. That's where we are. I'm still trying to persuade the 40, but we think we need to probably nudge it up to 70. Okay, thanks, that's a good copy. I may be proven wrong, and if you get beat by Wolves at home...

with Wolves just having come off the back of getting beat 4-0 at Everton maybe maybe he can't survive but I've always said I've been saying for a little while now West Ham's board like to give the impression that they like to sack managers but they don't they don't actually like to sack managers because you've got to pay them off

So, you know, they didn't sack Averon Grant the season that he took West Ham down. He didn't get sacked. You know, he got the bums rushed about two minutes after the last match of the season, but he didn't get sacked before that. So I always take this stuff with a pinch of salt that everyone's got two games to go at West Ham. It's going to be true one day, you know, in the old sort of blind squirrel and finding nuts analogy, but...

And I'm never sure because he had two games to save his job a couple of months ago and then he had two games to save his job just before the international break. Then he had two games to save his job just after the international break. And you think, well, it's like death by a thousand cuts with West Ham managers. I mean, David Moyes, everyone knew...

was leaving that club for six months before he left it. But there was this dance. Two years before he left it. It was ridiculous. But the same with Sam Allardyce. But if you look at what happened to David Moyes and to Sam Allardyce, is everyone shook hands at the end of a contract. Yeah. Thank you very much. That's right. No money changed hands. No one got paid off.

But both of those managers had had this, he's got three games to save his job, he's got two games to save his job, the board are considering this one, the board are considering that one. And I do think it is because the London Stadium move curdled quite quickly because the results weren't any good. There's nothing wrong with the stadium when West Ham are winning, by the way, all this nonsense. When West Ham are winning, everyone's delighted with the stadium. Or everyone's delighted inside the stadium. Yeah.

Because that curdled so quickly and because they had that problem early on and people invading the pitch and all of this sort of stuff, they always sort of got one eye on the fan reaction at West Ham. And if the fan reaction is negative, and at the moment it is very negative, then the following week you will always get these sort of leaks almost that

I'm sort of suggesting the fans are going to get what they want, which is the manager of Borussia Dortmund. Now, quite right, a manager of Borussia Dortmund wants to go to a team that has brought the world's slowest defenders and midfield players...

but wants to play a high line I don't I don't really know I mean if there was if I don't know stranger things have happened Martin I mean it should be on stranger things I mean it's like you know tactical suicide it's like a big handbook of tactical suicide yeah we've got slow defenders slow midfielders high line there you go

It's certainly not worked so far. Greg, we were talking about Gary O'Neill before and talking about giving managers time and sometimes we're too reactive. Do we feel with Lopetegui that, as you said, lots of chances created in this game? Charlotte Dunker was saying to me in another day they'd have won 2-0 maybe. Is there a sense that Lopetegui can have more time? Yeah, he can. I mean, there have been games where they've been unlucky and there have been games where they've looked...

Absolutely Like bereft of any ideas What so ever And Martin's right It's striking how Like Little legs they have in the team Yeah Kudos coming back At least gave them a bit of dynamism Yeah Oh my god They're slow And they have Particularly midfield They just have nothing Yeah So again I don't think that's Lopetegui's fault There were a couple of signings That had fingerprints on them But Which he would question But

I don't think that's his fault I think you're looking at Tim Steyden and his decision to hire him in conjunction with signing this group of players that they did in the summer spending over 100 million quid that's where the real kind of issue is and

It does get to a point in the return again. It's the same thing. It gets too toxic after a while. We will see. We will see. There we go. We've got defences for Gary O'Neill and Julian Lopetegui. So by the time you're listening to this podcast, they'll both have been sacked listeners. Who knows there? But anyway, Martin Samuel, Tony Cascarino and Gregor Robertson, thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for listening. We'll be back on Monday when it will all have changed again.