Saudi saga and more trouble in Manchester
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Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. Well, Manchester City fans, when will it end? Another defeat for Pep Guardiola's side, 2-0 against Juventus, which means that they could now crash out of the Champions League as well as their struggles in defending the Premier League title. On today's show, we'll discuss this remarkable fall from the top, as well as happier times for Liverpool, Arsenal and Aston Villa.

And if that wasn't enough, we'll also chat Manchester United and some strange going on at Millwall. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have the Chief Correspondent for The Times and Sunday Times, Martin Samuel, the Football Correspondent for The Sunday Times, Johnny Northcroft, and a former centre-forward turned Times columnist, Tony Cascarino is here as well. But first, team, even as well as all of that...

We have to start with the worst kept secret in football. The 2034 Men's World Cup will be held in Saudi Arabia. FIFA confirmed at their extraordinary congress on Wednesday, their title, not mine. Spain, Portugal and Morocco will be joint hosts for the 2030 tournament. Three matches in the 2030 tournament, as we've discussed on this show before, will also be held in Argentina, Paraguay and Uruguay to mark the 100 years of the celebration of the competition.

All 211 members of FIFA nations were represented at the meeting over a video link. Very modern, I thought. Very modern. We've got some chortling in the studio already. Johnny Northcroft, Australia's head back. What are you like? Oh, no, just, you know, it made it easy for our own FA and others just to...

acquiesced didn't it yes well quite and that's why I wanted to start and why we have to start with this because as I say not surprising news it's the worst kept secret we all knew it we all knew it and Martin Samuel this is exactly your intro well they did it we knew they were going to do it so we cannot claim to be surprised but the headline of your comment piece Saudi 2034 World Cup an outrage and a sham that they could have stopped

Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely, they could stop it. That's the great myth with all of this sort of stuff, that they're these powerless stooges just sat there and all they can do is applaud like, you know, seals basically with whatever FIFA do because there's about five countries that if they just turn around and said no, we're not doing this, we're not participating in this, that's the World Cup done. Um,

And the precedent for that is when UEFA attempted to reintroduce Russia into age group football in 2023 and FIFA took that as the signal that they could then put them back in the World Cup qualifying groups. In 2023, about five or six countries said, of which England was one, that they wouldn't play Russia if drawn against them.

And England were the only, for want of a better phrase, major nation that said this. They weren't joined by Germany or France or Italy or Spain or any of them. They were joined by Poland. They were joined by the Baltic states and Sweden and Ukraine, obviously. And the upshot of that was...

uefa had to withdraw because they couldn't run the risk of russia qualifying by default and then other countries at the tournament itself at the uefa age group finals tournaments themselves saying well we're not playing russia and destroying the entire competition so it can be done so it can be done and that's always been my point and um so this

It's not just that it's in Saudi Arabia. People get it wrong if they think it's just about it being in Saudi Arabia, although I have my issues with that.

It's about the absolute lack of a process, the lack of a challenger, the lack of a proper bidding process where Saudi Arabia knew what the deal was and nobody else knew what the deal was, so they couldn't get a bid package together in time. It's Infantino who, I think in one of the most crowded fields ever,

in modern sport, which is most negative influence on sport in history, in an administration sense, is by far and away the worst I've ever known. By far and away the worst I've ever known. And it's him...

having the audacity to keep lecturing on things like sustainability when you've put a World Cup across three continents and six countries, to lecture on human rights when he's taken it to Saudi Arabia where we know what the human rights situation is. So anyway, that's what the piece is about.

Because you're right, I remember when I was growing up and it would be a big thing about where's the World Cup going, where's an Olympics going? There's lots of countries in the hat and who's it going to get? And the envelope was a genuine moment. Johnny or Martin, how have we got to this point where everyone knows beforehand? All of these things have become so big and so expensive.

that it's very limiting to host it. That's one of the reasons why the Olympics, no one wants to host the Olympics, is it costs a fortune. And you see when Norway, I think it was Oslo, did the world a favour and released the book of the IOC's demands for, you know, the host city for an Olympics and what you had to do and what you had to give up

There is no organisation in the world that is more in hock to Saudi Arabia than FIFA. Newcastle United aren't even at the races because they're limited by financial regulations. There's no limitation on FIFA and they are completely...

owned virtually now by Saudi Arabia because the Club World Cup is only going ahead because of Saudi Arabian money. It is only financed because they couldn't get a broadcaster and then suddenly Saudi Arabia invested enormously in DAZN and suddenly DAZN bought the rights to the Club World Cup. So the whole thing is an exercise in

moving money about there's a word for it I can't remember what the word for it but they're just moving money around aren't they just moving their money around and so and this is where we are yeah

Johnny, I want to bring you in to talk about, Martin's read lots of excellent points there, but just your reaction generally, I say reaction because as I say at the top, we knew this was coming, but your thoughts both about what Martin said and now that this is out in the public domain. I mean, my reaction is part of the problem. It's absolute weariness and despondency and I think that is one of the things that Infantino and FIFA play on. They've worn us down over the years. Martin's absolutely right. These things...

can be stopped. Super League showed that things can be stopped. But Super League was stopped because of the energy of football supporters and because of the energy of the public outcry. The public don't raise a protest when FIFA do these things because we've all been ground down. You know, headline news, FIFA make shady decision. Nobody's surprised. So there's no groundswell of protest. And that's how they profit. That's how they...

they keep doing this I absolutely agree with Martin in his caricature of Infantino I think he is the worst we've seen I think we've gone from

the Blatter era where it's almost endearing to think of that because that was in front of your face. Yeah. You can actually see them. It's like the star on a show trial. Yeah. They knew where you were. They were almost like touchingly naive in the way what they were doing. And what we've now got is this guy, this sort of oily former lawyer. Sanctimonious. Sanctimonious who kind of manages things by process and does

he can subtly manoeuvre the machinery because he's very good at what he does to present us with fait accompli like he has done with this World Cup I mean maybe we'll go there's the question about Saudi and all that represents and I think that is very very complex because again as Martin says in his column there's a whole bigger dimension to that not just sports relationship

our own government's relationship for example there's politics but just keeping it to football for the moment I think one of the I think we're seeing a stealthy power grab here by Infantino and FIFA that has been bankrolled by Saudi Arabia and I think we've got to be very careful of it because he's kind of presented us with this club world cup which is already going to take a month of next summer and it's going to impinge on football

It's going to impinge on our clubs. And I say our clubs, I don't just mean British clubs, I mean all of our clubs as football supporters. It's going to impinge on the club game. And you've got Al Khalifa, the PSG chief, earlier this week.

saying, well, the league should get on with it. They should be like Ligue 1 in France. We've only got 18 teams now. We've got fewer games and we've got big squads. So we're happy with the Club World Cup. And it's like a coordinated erosion of domestic leagues. Khalifa's saying, well, the solution is just to reduce the Premier League so we can make room for these competitions that no one's asked for. Now we've got a World Cup that maybe in winter 2015

maybe in winter 2034 it's going to play havoc with the calendar again and there's a sense that we've just all got to kind of reorganise ourselves I can't even get the World Cup possibly in the year that it's made might not actually be in the year 2035 and you know the trouble is I do think we love tournaments but our lifeblood is our club game

And slowly, slowly, slowly, FIFA and UEFA with the expanded Champions League, they're inventing more competitions, they're moving their competitions around and it's at the expense of, it's a challenge to the club game and I think we've got to be quite clear about what's happening. Tony, you played at World Cups, you played at international tournaments, you know, very good, yeah, very good. I said plural, World Cups. But, you know, think about then what Johnny's saying about

You know, the erosion of the club game as well. Do you look at that as a former player and think, this is unrecognisable from, you know, the kind of World Cups that I was going to and the time that I played? This is a completely different sport now. I'm going to use one of my favourite words. Yeah, go on. Unfuzzled. I like that. Perplexed, confused, you know. It's a...

if you look what's happening in golf and it's in the paper today about what's happening with Liv and Saudi Arabia taking a big interest you're looking at football you're looking at boxing which has had similar issues I always remember the 1990 World Cup coming in probably the most corrupt time of Italian football during the 80s okay and the Italians got it in 90 obviously that decision was made a few years behind before um

I can only talk as a player and planning in tournaments, but there's been a lot of things around FIFA over the generations and their involvement with the Middle East. And you talked about club football and,

So you're saying that even back then, it was not like... No, it's just different, but it was still major issues. You could tell, even in America, it was a World Cup that, when you got there, and I'm sure you boys probably would have been there, no-one outside the hotels really knew there was a World Cup going on. No, no, they didn't. So it's not me sat here going, oh, it's only bad now, back in the day in 94. No, no, no, there's been issues. It's been cut for a long time. But the thing is,

The thing is that Tony... Sorry, trying to cut across there. The thing is, Tony mentioning live golf. You can mention all sorts of other sports. The women's tennis ends up in Saudi, etc. But all I would say is this. The women's tennis...

desperate for so no one wanted to give it money you know they tried to have that season finale in other countries went ended up in China they went to other countries and in the end they weren't getting the revenue that Saudi Arabia could provide so

I've got a degree of sympathy there. They're trying to sustain that sport. They're trying to offer prize money that is expected. And the only people putting their hands in their pocket for it are Saudi Arabia. I don't think the golfers were short of a few quid. But nonetheless, you know, there's all sorts of other issues with that. This is football.

This is the richest sport on the planet. You don't have to keep going to these places, these places where human rights are an issue, where the treatment of construction workers are an issue. You don't have to keep going to these repressive regimes to get the money. You'll get the money...

You're getting the money in places where people are freer. On that, I'd say as well, look, Qatar wasn't that far, you know, it wasn't that long ago, was it? No. You know, these things, the accusations were there. Lots of us went to that World Cup. I was there. These boys are definitely there also. And it went really well. But a lot of stuff is hidden from what you actually see. I mean, you could have, by the way, on the Metro or the tube in, what was it like? You could have had your dinner off the floor.

and the Metro it was like everything was so immaculate one I just can I just add on to one other thing that you know bothers me about this is that they dip their toes in you know obviously Saudi Arabia into club football but they know the biggest thing they can get is the World Cup okay and they've already had it you could say in the Emirates you know or Qatar and

I was amazed that some of the things that they against their laws in their own country is like in the Emirates at the moment and this is obviously different from Saudi Arabia but it's the same idea is that they're building a casino in 2027

that is illegal in the Emirates but they have gone after entertainment whether that's tennis golf even snookers in Dubai and I just think they're going for the very top and knowing that they can get that and that's where FIFA fall down for me because they've not stood in the way do you know what I mean they've allowed it to happen we

We have to add in Russia as well. Russia 2018, you know, what we can't do is be sort of negative about one area of the world and not look at what's staring us in the face, which is 2018, before Qatar, we were in a country for a World Cup that had effectively a dictatorship that was using the World Cup as soft power to try and burnish its reputation.

of an invasion of Ukraine. That was happening. Migrant workers died constructing the stadiums in Russia. Yeah. St. Petersburg. Wasn't South Africa not as bad but there was still quite a lot of problems. Massive corruption. Massive corruption. Corruption is what it was a one party state at that point effectively because ANC couldn't really be challenged. Brazil. Brazil you know with their politics. I see everyone woke up. Well I mean the

One of the points is that, I mean, and World Cups and Olympics have always been used by regimes because it's a great way to burn a soft power. But it is expensive holding these tournaments. It is what you have to do to put them on. And it always seems to involve building 12 new stadiums. It's made more so because if you look at Cape Town,

Cape Town has got fantastic stadiums. You know, Cape Town has hosted incredible rugby matches and things like that. But when they had the World Cup, it was FIFA that drove the building of a new stadium so that when... So that the TV companies that were there...

You've got the view of the mountains in the background. You've got the ocean and you've got the mountains in the background and it looked stunning. Greenpoint, I want to say Greenpoint. That's right, Greenpoint, yeah. But it cost a fortune. They had...

in Cape Town that they could have refurbished, they could have redeveloped. But no, you've got to have a new one. You've got to have a new one. It's the same in a very small way with our European Championships and what has happened with Northern Ireland where they were wanting to build a new stadium rather than try and make some alterations to Windsor Park and settle for a slightly smaller stadium. But, you know, you've got Windsor Park.

But they didn't want to do that. Is there a case for Saudi Arabia? In the way that, you know, Tony, you just talked about Qatar and saying, oh, it's actually very impressive. Is there a case for the World Cup going to Saudi Arabia? Yeah, there is, because it's what we would say a proper football country in the sense it's got a long football history. Even before the Saudi Pro League, it had well-supported football clubs. It had a World Cup history itself. And I do see the...

and the potential appeal of having a World Cup in every part of the globe representing everybody. Of course, that principle is something you could argue with that. So, yeah. I mean, and I actually think there's a way the World Cup could have been hosted in Qatar and could be hosted in Saudi if...

as serious about human rights. Have a human right, a proper scrutiny of human rights, have a qualification...

that you have to adhere to in the building of stadiums that are independently monitored, commit to reform, commit to various charters. That could be done, but it isn't done. And one of the goaling things is, again, as Martin puts in his column, in this week we've had FIFA sweep their own report into migrant workers...

In Qatar, they swept it under the carpet and decided not to act on the recommendations for compensation. Their own human rights committee recommended, for want of a better phrase, reparations to the migrant workers that had built the Qatar World Cup.

And FIFA's response was, that's not going to happen. And so, and then this man stands up and talks about human rights. And when did the press release come out, Martin? Oh, 11.32pm UK time. I mean, it's just, it's, it's, it's...

and it's not about this part of the world could never have a World Cup or whatever. And funnily enough, stuff that everyone got obsessed about in Qatar or with Qatar, like you can't have a beer, I couldn't care less about that. If you're going to send it to a country in which alcohol is not allowed, have a dry World Cup. That's it. I mean, I know it's unfortunate for people that can't watch a game of football without having a beer, but

if that's the rules of the country, I've got no problem with that sort of stuff whatsoever. I have got a problem with the process. I have got a problem with this sort of one-horse race that they conducted two one-horse races yesterday and took an hour and 15 minutes to...

to show everyone, they went through it as if it was, as if there was a bidding process, as if there was a rival or anything like that. It was absolutely, I defy anyone. Forget the decision. Forget where the World Cup's going. I defy anybody to watch FIFA in action yesterday and not be utterly revolted because it was everything, everything that you look at and think,

Yeah, that's why people... That's why Ian Waldrich, one of the great sportswriters, in the end stopped covering World Cups because he hated it so much. He hated what football had become so much. I've been doing this a long time and you can see yourself getting more and more to that stage of thinking, I tell you what, you know, I can't stand these people. And I can't stand what these represents. Did you feel that at the last World Cup? No, look, I tell you what,

Qatar's a good... See, the thing... But what always drags you back is this. The World Cup endures. Yeah, it does. So the World Cup is flame-proof, really, because Qatar, the actual football, it's a good tournament. Finals, probably the greatest final I've ever seen. Yeah. Um...

So the tournament itself, the competition itself, when you get there, there's 32 countries, it endures. I feel the same about things like the Club World Cup. I think the Club World Cup has the potential, not necessarily this one, because I think the Inter-Miami thing really sows it, but in future, it has the potential to be a great tournament. I've always thought that. But it's succeeding...

despite these people because it's succeeding because no matter what you think of UEFA or FIFA or whatever

France versus Argentina, Lionel Messi on one side, Kylian Mbappe on the other, hammer and tongs for two hours or whatever. It was a fabulous game. It was amazing. We've got loads more I want to talk about, but Johnny, just a final word from you on this, just reflecting some of Martin's points. Yeah. Look, in ideal world territory, we would have stronger domestic FA's, not just English FA, but...

across Europe I think we the people fans would care a bit more and there could be some way of actually make it because when Blatter went that was the chance to rebuild FIFA and instead it's closed off even more Martin's absolutely right that what they've got is this golden opportunity

this thing that just can't, it's so brilliant, the World Cup. And it is the first thing that brought me into football outside of my local team, showed me there was this game, not just my local side. And that's going to be like that for generations. But every time they put on a World Cup,

they say to us what a great tournament it was because it usually has been but as Martin says it's been a great tournament nearly always despite FIFA not because of them from that perspective it's nearly bulletproof the World Cup isn't it you could put it on the North Pole don't give them ideas there's not enough money in it at the moment unless they really strike on it in which case it will be the you know 2013 can I just make one point this is the last point but I

We could have a whole show on FIFA. Because one of the things that people say is, oh, yeah, but you'll be there. You lot will all be there. Why don't you, if you feel so strongly about it? There is absolutely no point whatsoever in a journalist...

Boycotting the World Cup and thinking that makes any difference whatsoever. The people who have the power to stop these things happening are not sitting on this podcast. I would love it if we were, but are not sitting on this podcast and they're probably not even listening to this podcast. They're on those television screens that Infantino was looking at and they all raised their little hands and they all clapped or whatever.

And they're the people that could have stopped it. They're the ones that are in a position of power. It doesn't make any difference. Of course, a journalist will write negative things about a World Cup.

about the hosting process, about lots of things around it. And then when it comes, well, you go. You go because it's the World Cup and you're there. The job is to report the World Cup. So you go and you report the World Cup. You probably write the same stuff while you're out there. I certainly did when I was in Qatar. But the idea that

one bloke not picking his press accreditation up is going to make the slightest bit of difference is just preposterous. It's the people. Debbie Hewitt was our representative and the FA have confirmed that Debbie Hewitt

was part of the acclamation process. So Debbie Hewitt applauded. She didn't sit there flicking V signs. She didn't sit there with her feet up on the desk smoking a fag going, no, no, no, no, not having this, which she could have done. It would still have been waved through anyway because there were enough people applauding. One of the adjudicators was ready to start applauding before they'd even been asked. One of the adjudicators. But they're the people.

They are the people and they're the ones that have waved it through. Go on, Johnny. We've got one final, final point. Final, final, final point. We will talk about some actual football in here. If the FA are going to wave it through, they could at least have the decency to press for the compensation of the migrant workers in Qatar. Yeah, totally, John. They could at least press for that. Totally, John.

Absolutely. Well, that's an absolutely jam-packed show already. I'm tempted to say bye and just leave it there. But we have got loads and loads more to discuss. One topic that we could always also discuss all the time is Manchester United. We discussed it on Monday, the news of Dan Ashworth's departure. But Ruben Amorim, talking about politics, I think Ruben's got a career in politics after his assessment of the situation yesterday in the pre-match press conference, describing it as...

Not the best situation, Johnny, which I think is one of the most wonderful choice of phrase ever. Ruben will go far. But I just wanted to ask you, Johnny, what you make of this situation. Alison had her say on Monday over this. What I asked about was the optics. You know, this Ineos takeover was supposed to be, we're going to fix everything. This has been shambolic all the time. We're going to sort it out. Yeah, the optics are saying to me that this is the...

the final act in a pretty bad first year from Jim Ratcliffe. And it almost typifies how it's gone so far, which is a lot of noise, mistakes, and then asking other people to carry the can for things not being right. No one's explained to me why Dan Ashworth, first of all,

was a 10 out of 10 sporting director when they appointed him was worth waiting for five months for came in and did what Dan Ashworth does you know anyone that Dan Ashworth's not a new figure at the game he's one of the first sporting directors he's been doing it for 15 years I could have told Jim Ratcliffe that

What Dan Ashworth is, is an incredibly good administrator, organiser. He empowers the people below him, around him. He puts people in the right positions. He's a really steady... He always calls himself the hub at the middle of a wheel. And that's what he does. That's his model of operating. What he isn't is an incredible dynamic transfer guru, a Michael Edwards type with...

and huge processes. There's different types of sporting directors. So Jim Ratcliffe seems to sack Dan Ashworth for being Dan Ashworth. And I would suggest that the person that was really at fault is the person that hired Dan Ashworth because all he's done is gone in and had five months. Five months of doing things like, you know, supporting the women's team that...

Clearly Jim Ratcliffe doesn't value or trying to once the decision was taken to keep Ten Hag trying to empower Ten Hag to do a good job.

That's what Dan Ashworth does. So if he wanted somebody different, he should have appointed somebody different. And I mean, you know, this is a guy that sacked Fergie. This is a guy that's taken away, you know, privileges for the Busby family. This is a guy that puts ticket prices up. This is a guy that's cutting potentially the allowance for Man United's disabled supporters. And...

It's also the guy that's presided over another £200 million of transfer spending. Now everyone has to save money to justify that. So I think it's been a bad end to what's been a bad first year for Jim Ratcliffe. By the end of it, I thought you were going to say worse than a bad end once you've tarted all that up. Martin, just from you on this, because you wrote about it in your column at the weekend,

Is Johnny right? Because we touched about this with Alison on Monday as well. Do you have the sense that it's a bit like, oh, Dan Ashworth, he's really good at being a sporting director. We must have him. It looked like kind of fantasy football style signing. Well, it certainly does now. What do you make of how it all panned out and what it says about Manchester United? I think it says things about a lot of people there because the first decision that the Brains Trust made was,

was the easy way out, which was we've just won a big match at Wembley. All the fans liked the manager. Let's keep the manager. And you knew they were going to regret that one. You knew they were going to be in the same place that they were

a year ago, you know, within a couple of months of the season starting. That's not being, you know, wise after the event or loads of hindsight. Everyone was saying it at the time. So, Ratcliffe is, by all accounts, quite resentful of that decision.

Where Dan Ashworth wasn't even part of the club. Yeah, but he was part of the process, wasn't he? Maybe. He was part of the process. Officially not, though, because they'd botched the appointments. Yeah, I know. But everyone, you know, I mean, the Xerxes transfer, it was so...

Dan Ashworth has seen personally I mean I think technically Xerxes it doesn't cross over but it was all over Ashworth personally saw this one over the line there was this big murky area about who was responsible for what because everyone's running away from it now no one wants to be the one who's responsible for 10 hard as my damn sure he's seen to be responsible for Amarim yeah

So I don't think it reflects particularly well on any of them, really. That's going to be the same word again. It can be the theme of it. Bum-frazzled. Bum-frazzled. It can be the theme of the show. Do you know what? Sometimes this happens. You get headhunted or you go after a certain type of people, whether it's, like you said, fantasy football player and it can be the head of, the director of football or whoever.

It amazes me that now, even when you hear Amarim talk about, he's basically saying there's a lot of problems at this football club and we don't know which ones to attack first because there are problems and then there's really severe problems you have to get to quickly. And I think what's happened at United is they've got a lot of severe ones and a big list of other ones underneath that.

because the club has gone from the stadium's a problem, you know, the playing squad's a problem, the manager's a problem. I mean, everything's become a problem at Manchester United. And I think Jim Radcliffe, and I'm glad... The financial rules that we lobbied for for 10 years to stop everyone else spending money, they're now a problem. Yeah, so it's all these issues. It really feels weird. And...

The appointment of Jim Ratcliffe, or the appointment, his share in the buying into the football club...

I think the United fans are going to feel very differently now of what they've witnessed and some of the stuff that Johnny's mentioned as well. You know, the ticket price in one was like... Well, they thought it was like he's a saviour. Here comes the saviour, supports the club. But Tom, even with ticket pricing, when the line was used out, you know, will Fulham charge this? Well, Fulham are above you in the league. OK, you know what I mean? It's like, well, and doing it mid-season to me was like...

Don't think that. And we all know that revenue is important with how many people you get through the gate, which was why clubs keep building bigger stadiums. I get it. But it's not the ultimate. Their revenue is dwarfed by other, you know, obviously merchandising, sponsors for the club, you know, TV rights. And they've chose to go down this road of, I think, nitpicking, and they've got way bigger problems than that. You've got a fun boss. A fun boss? A fun boss.

You ever heard of the Fun Boss in German? The Fun Boss. You know, the Fun Boss. You know, old Jim Reckless coming in. It's going to be great. He's a Manchester man, you know. Fun Boss. I worked for Richard Desmond when he played drums at the Christmas party and stuff like that. I can honestly say, you know, it was like people would be banging their heads against the table, you know, at that newspaper.

Yeah, I never trust a fun boss. Never trust. Have you seen the Simpsons episode as well? With the guy where he goes to work for the guy and he's a fun boss and he's like skateboarding and do you want to borrow my jacket home? And the whole thing turns out to be a front for like a Smurfs type organisation, you know. And he's

when Homer resigns, the guy says to him, you know, if you could kill a couple of CIA agents on your way out, you know, hands him a gun, you know. And it's that sort of thing. It's the... It's, you know, I don't trust, I never trusted it, the fun boss aspect of, oh, he's a Mancunian, he gets us, you know, he's one of our own type thing. You think, it's a Chelsea season together. Well, the first thing he did was said, we need a £2 billion new stadium. And by the way, the public should...

taxpayers should pay for it he says from Monaco I mean the guy's beyond paradise yeah yeah yeah as Ruben Amarim says everyone not the best situation not the best situation one of the great understatements in modern football I'd say Ruben good luck to you you're going to need it can I just say one thing this is the theme of this show can I just say one thing no just one thing I do and look and

I like our movement and I like what he's done already because you can actually see what he's trying to do which is certainly an improvement on the last few months when it had a little on its side apart from mystery really but I do think it's a strange thing that

And people say, oh, he will play 3-4-3. And you're thinking, he probably... Well, yeah, OK, maybe if he plays 3-4-3, OK, United. You know, because they're really struggling to play 3-4-3, so I'm not sure they've actually got the personnel to play 3-4-3. Well, they're not pacing the threes in their arse. And he comes in and he does. That's what he does. He plays 3-4-3. And I must confess, I am an admirer of those managers. Carlo Ancelotti is one, certainly, who go in...

and look at what they've got, and then they decide what they're going to play. Because this thing of, well, this is the way I play, and you've all got to get used to it, that didn't actually used to be what management was about. Management was about looking at your players and thinking, well, as Tony said, we haven't got any pace here, so we can't really play high line, or we can't really do this, or we can't really do that. Yeah.

And I don't know. Look, I like him. I like what they're trying to achieve. But it doesn't half make that rebuild expensive. Yeah. If you're trying to play a system that you have fundamentally not got many of the personnel.

It's not just one or two, you know. They haven't got a lot of players capable of playing the way he wants to play at the moment. Definitely a difficult time. No, no, absolutely not. Definitely a difficult time for Manchester United. I'll tell you what, it's not a question of Johnny's thing. No, no, no, it would be a lot more interesting. You bloody love the question. It's your favourite bit. You come in before the show and we ask the question, who?

Am I talking about when I say a former footballer who played in the Premier League for Arsenal, Liverpool, Manchester City, Bolton, Chelsea and West Brom? Nice and easy. Find out after the break.

Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clarke and I've got Martin Samuel, Tony Cascarino and Johnny Northcroft with me. And he might have been joking about not loving this quiz question, but he was straight in with the answer. And I'm not going to ask you what it is because you'll come up with something stupid like Napoleon Bonaparte. Instead, I'm going to ask Tony, what was the answer to the quiz question? Nicholas Anelka. Nicholas Anelka, which Martin Samuel got straight away after the break because listeners, he loves the quiz.

Anyway, we were talking about Manchester United before the break. Let's talk about Manchester City. Another defeat. Paul Hirsch writing in the Times website, City really are in crisis. For the first half of this match against Juventus, played out in near freezing conditions, City controlled the game. But then, as has been the case so many times over the last couple of months, City imploded big time. Pep Guardiola has even said after the game that he's starting to question himself.

Johnny, I mean, we keep talking about Manchester City and it just keeps getting a bit more remarkable each time. It does, but I think we've got to get used to this for a while. You think we're in this for the season now? I think this is the season for them. I think this is the equivalent of that season Liverpool had when Van Dijk got injured. And I'm trying to remember what year. It was a COVID-y year, wasn't it? 2020, 21 or something like that. I mean, it's...

What Pep can't do is get a time machine, take Ilkay Gundogan back five years, take Kevin De Bruyne back five years, take Kyle Walker back five years. That's three of the biggest problems. I said that the last time I was on. The personnel aren't right. There's key players that are ageing. I think uncharacteristically bad planning and spending in the transfer market is catching up with them.

It seems to me that for the first time in this whole Man City cycle, you could say they've had three, four windows where they've actually sold better players than they've bought, Man United style. You know, I don't have to go through them, but every time Cole Palmer steps on the pitch, it's a reminder of that, or Julian Alvarez or whatever. And I think...

you're also seeing a manager who is being confronted with something he's never been confronted with before, who's a very systems-based manager, who isn't going to, to speak to what we were talking about earlier on, isn't going to suddenly introduce a new style of play.

is going to keep persisting with what's one in four bazillion trophies, quite rightly. But what I mean by that, I don't see any sort of big change coming until Pep can, I guess, get into the transfer market.

correct some of these issues and probably take a rest and reboot for next season I think it's I don't see them winning the Premier League I don't see them winning the Champions League I mean there are other strange and I'd be fascinated to hear what Tony thinks strange things going on with individual players for example Bernardo Silva is one of them I'm looking at him

So brilliant throughout his career at City, but almost anonymous at times now. Phil Foden's another one, and Erling Haaland's. I wrote a piece at the start of the year saying, I can't make up my mind whether Erling Haaland is a great footballer or not, because he's a scorer on a different scale to anything we've seen. But what he's not is a player that can affect the rest of the game.

and can do the thing that we see Mo Salah doing all the time which is when his team is in a really tight situation and he might not even be playing well just suddenly carry it on his shoulders Aguero used to do that for City and Erling Haaland doesn't do that and I said this season we'll find out and he started with I think scoring his first five games nine or ten goals and he's

but he's been becalmed ever since and he doesn't look like a guy that's going to get them out of this situation. Tony, what do you make of that point? I think Johnny's made a lot of valid points. What do you think about Haaland? I watched the game last night because I was intrigued by City and just confused by what's happened. You can use the word again if you want. No, yeah, we're perplexed. Bewildered. Just watching him...

and not even really attempt to move from the position he's playing in. He was up against a solid back four. They were clearly going to just stand on man-to-man marking every time. He did nothing to try and lose anybody. But then again, the team are playing in such a tippy-tappy way. Yes, Bernardo Silva's getting there. It's going back inside. Jack Grealish is going inside, and it's all tippy-tappy. Rico Lewis is guilty of that as well. They've got a five-a-side team that he's playing in as a lone striker.

without really seeing. He's playing with crumbs. I think there's two real big dangers here. One is he might not want to stay at City because he might, as much as we might think he doesn't fit into them, he might think, this is not good for me. Even though I've got lots and lots of goals, when he's playing and having little impact in games, there will become a period where he doesn't score on runs and thinks maybe...

This isn't where I should be now. Maybe I should move on. And he is, to a degree, I wouldn't say the limit is not, he's an incredible athlete that wants to get on the shoulders and he plays in spurts. But we've all argued that that's how he plays for City because they have the ball. They dominate the first half on possession. They literally had the ball all the time but couldn't hurt Juve.

And that's a problem in itself. Look, again, we've talked about Man United and the problem. Pep's probably at the moment absolutely bemused by everything. Yeah. Because he cannot believe. I think there's a danger as well. I'm not just saying this because of last night. I said it a couple of weeks ago. There's a fair chance he might not sign a new deal. As much as he's been offered one. Well, no, we...

what, you think he won't stay beyond the two years he's... No, I even think he could call it a day before, even before he gets way close to that two year, because if he even referenced he doesn't know the man, if he's the man to save the club...

Well, then you shouldn't stay if you don't think you're the man. I'm not convinced he's convinced that he's the man to solve all the problems. What do we think to that idea? Well, it's an interesting idea because, I mean, Jurgen Klopp signed a new contract. Halfway through, Mark. And then he was halfway through it when he just turned around to them and said, you know, that's me, I'm done, I'm burnt out, I'm done. Um...

Now, I've had people at Manchester City say that the reason that they don't try to put Pep on five-year deals and three-year deals or anything like that is because it's a very personal understanding with Khaldun, Al Mubarak, the chairman. It's between those two guys and...

They are always aware that at any given moment, Pep could walk in and just say to Khaldun, mate, I'm done. So there's no point having him under a four-year contract or a five-year contract because... It doesn't mean anything. It wouldn't mean anything because the relationship, the personal relationship between those two men is such that it's... Well, he'll know. He'll know when it's time.

So it's not beyond the realms of possibility that new contract or no new contract, that at the end of the season, if it has been as bad a season as it could be, I mean, you've got to look at... It's quite incredible to look at that Champions League table and see that Manchester City have got a cup final against Paris Saint-Germain coming up because, you know, one of them, both of them almost, could end up in that...

that bottom ten where you go nowhere. And it would not be impossible, it would be a surprise, of course it would be a surprise, but it wouldn't be impossible

to think that Pep could go in at the end of the season and just... What about Haaland as well, then? What do you think? Because I look at the player... The problem with Haaland, Tony, is where would he go? Does he go... Can they get him in at Man City as well as Kylian Mbappe? I think, well, there's many clubs... At Real Madrid, you mean. Where did I say? Man City, sorry. At Real Madrid. Yeah, well, there's Real... I mean, I wouldn't rule out Atletico the way they play. But could they afford him, though? Atletico's nearly... Could they afford him? Well...

If they can afford Griezmann at a certain time, I'm sure if they move... They've got Alvarez at 80 odd million. Yeah. You know, they're a big club, Atletico. Okay, they might not be as big as Real, but they're a wealthy club in European football. I don't exactly know who, but I just look at an unhappy player. I'm watching all his movements last night. He was literally like this at times. Yeah. Thinking...

what he felt like he's thinking what am i doing out here i think the thing he said to him was is it good for him he must he must stand there sometimes getting six touches a half yeah i'd hate it yeah i mean and he's and it's to his great credit that as a young player he's got the patience because the goals have always been the answer why he's happy and why they've won things well when you don't win things and then you're not scoring

your mindset can be a little bit different. Yeah. So, Johnny, what do you make of the Pep thing as well, just to finish on Tony's idea, because Martin had his say. No, I totally recognise that, that Pep invests

incredible amount of himself in his job all the time he's so intense and passionate about how he works and if you if you read some of the books about him you know even he prepares for a game by locking himself in a room and and and you know sort of like a sort of chess master puzzling over what he's going to do and he'll spend two or three hours just preparing one game and he's on this

on top of everything else the schedule's absolutely unforgiving so a guy that like Klopp did put so much of himself in isn't getting any younger yeah we don't know what's in his mind you can see he wants to fight he wants to fight and that's to his credit but how

And I don't think he's anywhere near this yet. And he seemed quite pleased with the performance last night. But you do ask yourself, six more months of this, how's he going to be feeling? Well, he's got Manchester Derby this weekend. If they come out the wrong end of that... And that intensity, and that whole intensity thing, it does, you know, there is another way to manage. You know, you don't have to, you know, you can look at it and go...

The 11 players I've got here really, I've had a few too much this week. I don't actually have to lock myself in a room or whatever. We should murder this other lot. It is funny, Harry Redknapp tells a story about when he was at Bournemouth and he was at a game at Fulham in the League Cup. And he was scouting, he was scouting, you know, he was watching a Fulham player or whatever, some kid or whatever. They're playing Liverpool.

And I'm trying to remember if it was Bob Paisley or Joe Fagan, but anyway, he's in the director's box with his guy. And whoever it is, Bob Paisley or Joe Fagan, comes up into the director's box before kick-off. And a fellow goes, hello, Joe. Oh, blimey, hello, Charlie. Anyway, they don't speak like that. They weren't cockiness. And anyway, so they start chatting. They'd been in the war together. They'd been in the army together.

And they've sat. He said, we're in the row behind them. And they've sat and talked, these two fellas. The game's going on. He said, they haven't stopped talking the entire half, 45 minutes or whatever, about, you know, about the one. Have you seen, do you see anyone from the old, you know, do you see, oh no, he died or whatever. He said, anyway,

The referee blows the half-time. He said, anyway, I've got to go. I've got to go back. Great to see you, Charlie. And goes downstairs. He said, my sister was turning around and we'd gone, what the hell was that? He said, I see him. He's the manager of Liverpool. What's he got to worry about? He said, they're going to win. He knows they're going to win.

And it does, when you see Pep Guardiola tearing his, going insane, you're thinking, mate, have a look at your XI and have a look at their XI and maybe give yourself a week off and just go, lads, you know what to do. Well, that was Cluffy's way. Cluffy would give five days off. I mean, Teddy Sheridan joined the club and he said, we played on the Saturday and they came in Monday and he said, see you Friday, lads.

The day before the game. He said, well, we're not training. We're not training. Tuesday, Wednesday. Certainly a different approach to Pep Guardiola. I wanted to talk about another manager, Johnny, just quickly. Liverpool getting a 1-0 win thanks to Mo Salah. But Arnaud Slot showing again different sides of this personality that I'm enjoying discovering this season in his time at Liverpool. He's done friendly. He's done jokey. He does, you know, response to transfer rumours. And then he does quite Pep Guardiola-esque, if you like, a 1-0 win.

And a load of criticism. Yeah, Fergie-esque as well. And yeah, it's that old trick, isn't it? I'm sure Tony's had coaches do this, that when you're on a really good run and the team are winning, sometimes that's the time to have a little bit of a go at the players because what you don't want is complacency. Look, Girona were tricky. Yeah, they played well, yeah. They were good. They've got some good players, obviously, and a good team.

good sort of pep style system that looks good when you execute it and Liverpool it wasn't their best performance but I mean they're unbeaten they're top of the league it's another 1-0 win and I just think it was it was slot trying to find an opportunity to just keep them on their toes and as you say it's we're just seeing somebody in front of us show us some little subtle sides because he never changes the way he delivers his messages and

But the messages are sort of adjusting all the time. Yeah. Tony, would you agree with that? You had plenty of managers who kind of would criticise you even when you thought you were playing well. Oh, yeah. That's the best time to go after someone. Yeah. Because you sit there in the dressing room and you're quite relieved and you feel a big smile on your face and then the manager nails you. Yeah. Which I've had a couple of times. Yeah. You know. One manager used a great line. Great line on me. He passed away last week, John Docherty.

And came in at half-time, we were winning, and he went to me, are you okay? I went, yeah, I'm fine. He said I thought he was outstanding in the first half. He said the problem is everyone else is fucking running. Meaning me, like, and I was like, I took it really personally. What do you mean? He went, get over your, you know, effing arse. And I started laughing because I thought, but he was absolutely fuming. But he went after me, but he also would, there's,

There's certain players in dressing rooms, it's funny, that will immediately mention someone else. What about Martin Tamu? And they'll say, you're right, he hasn't got any balls in. With your delivery, you know, and they laugh and deflect from yourself. I miss the dressing room so much at times because it's like a comedy sketch and sometimes that manager goes after you and...

You're at the wrong end and you think you're safe. That's the funny thing. And you're not safe. No, you're not. You're not safe. Well, another part of modern football that's not safe, Tony, from your criticism, goalkeepers. The modern goalkeeper. We wanted to talk about Arsenal's 3-0 win against Monaco, but you wanted to talk about modern goalkeeping. Over to you. The floor is yours. You have two minutes. Go. In recent weeks, I've been getting increasingly...

and thinking, when is this going to end with goalkeepers keep trying to play it from the back with a simple 5-10 yard ball into the feet? Then we saw it last night in the Arsenal-Monaco game. Monaco goalkeeper, he's played little pass, they're losing the game, he's giving it literally and he ends up at Saka and he scores. And I've seen Joe Lumley, the previous keeper to Joe Lumley, by the way, got dropped McCarthy because he made the same mistake against Liverpool. Yeah.

You know, we're seeing this on a regular basis where... And I'm not talking about one level. I'm talking about every level. I go to Bromley. You know, not so much because they don't play that exact way, but I see it a lot of times in opposition...

watch games I'm bewildered when is this going to end this you know belief that the data tells us that we are going to have more possession and create we're more creative in winning games but it's not it's not because when it works it

it does, A, look great, B, is very effective playing out from the back. Is that not the aim? Is that not the goal? Yeah, play Glenn Oddle in goal. Right, if you want to play like that, play Glenn Oddle because some of the things that goalkeepers are doing are beyond the very best players I've played with and witnessed because they are trying intricate passes that are literally there. If you lose that ball, that ball's in the back of the net.

Now, I get it to a degree that when it's on, you can play. I don't have a problem. I don't want football just to be like it was in the 80s, directly pumping it down the middle. If it ain't on, don't even think about it. Because Southampton, in my opinion, I've watched them enough this year to say they should probably have three, four, maybe even five points more. They've given games away. It's Christmas time. Here's another present for you. And I don't get the...

Continual idea of this is the way we're going to play. And I don't mind when Man City do it because normally Edison can do it okay and Bernardo Silva and lots of other players in their team are very capable. I just think it's absolute madness. And I think it's got... I'm seeing the end of it, I think, now. I think there's going to be a sort of a... They're going to address... Managers are going to address it slightly because you don't have to go from one, you know, black or white. There's a grey area there.

Where you can adapt. You can adapt and not give games away. I think the thing I always think with Southampton, every time they lose a goal playing out and Russell Martin comes on and goes, yeah, but it's the way we play. I always just think we'll coach it better because it ain't working. So if that is the way you play, you need to coach it better. That's the way we play.

he's he's he's nonsense isn't it oh you know you know all of this all of this nonsense but oh that's the way we play and you think well but it's not working you're bottom of the league so change the way you play because what what the way you're playing isn't working and a lot of this also if you're a smart coach you can work out who you want the ball to be forced onto

You know, if the goalkeeper's going to be playing out the back, you can work out, right, we'd like it to go to that bloke there because that bloke there can't pass. You know, so that's going to come straight back to us if we can get, if we can push up on all of these, we're leaving with no option but to pass to Muggins here and Muggins can't pass and we're then on him and now they're in trouble.

He doesn't take the brains of Lloyd George to work them out, surely. Muggins, can I just make one point? Yeah, go on. Can I make one point? And he's a dear friend of mine and I love him to death. LAUGHTER

But, but, but, have you said this? A dear friend of mine, who's my manager, Liam Brady, one of the greatest players I ever played with. And we had a little bit of a ding-dong at Celtic Park where I'm in a dressing room and he said to me, I want you to drop into midfield for me and set the play up and just be the extra body in there to get the play and the team higher up the pitch. And I said, that's not really my strength, Liam.

You know, I want to be on the end of things and Cross is coming in. And he went, I've just paid 1.2 million for someone who can't do in front of the lads. So I turned around and this is, I regret it because of what I said back. I just said, okay, Liam, so if I say to you to get the file post and nod things down, can you do it? Now he said after to me that I undermined him. I said, I wasn't Liam. I said, I was just trying to make the point that there's some things you could do and I can't and vice versa.

And that was my whole point, is that that wasn't my strength to be an extra body in midfield. The same as Liam Brady's strength wouldn't be at the far post and nodding things down. Yeah. So you're looking for a bit of pragmatism. Well, let's talk about someone who's better at a bit of pragmatism. Johnny, I just wanted to finally finish with a question about Unai Emery. Aston Villa, good win for them against RB Leipzig, 3-2. Yeah. They've had a couple of better wins in the Premier League, some 1-0 wins, all a little bit boring. It seems to have quietened down the idea that they've...

been a little bit distracted by the Champions League but it's all going very well in Europe. It looks like he's prioritised it doesn't it? Well that's what I'm glad you said it because I was going to ask you and then I thought no I'll just give him an open-ended question but it's starting to look like it. It's beginning to look like that and of course this is Unai Emery the man that wins European trophies so he knows how to prioritise and win in Europe and I think Villa fans are delighted because yeah it's been a drop off in the Premier League and

But every one of those European wins and European nights is special. And we're talking about Man City and PSG in the race for 24th place. And there's Villa at the other end of the table. You know, Brest are doing something similar from a French perspective. But,

I think it's wonderful. Yeah, absolutely. Villa fans, I'm sure, will be absolutely delighted. Speaking of fans, I wanted to finish with the story of Neil Harris, the Millwall manager, stepping down in charge after calling some of the club's fans thickos. This was after the game against Coventry. Lost 1-0. Tony, you were there. You mentioned John Doherty already in the show. You were there as part of the team getting back together to pay tribute to John Doherty, but I just wanted to ask you about this in terms of

and players and managers relationship with fans you know we're talking about Saudi Arabia and the fans don't have any power you do wonder whether this is part of this decision what did you make of this because Harris has been doing a brilliant job at Millwall yeah a club legend in his own right

quite an interesting way for it to pan out well he's got the sixth biggest budget in the championship so if you make that argument they should be sick from bottom it's always difficult for Neil as in he's the all time leading goal scorer of Millwall where he got hounded out the first time because the fans got frustrated with the style of play so that's going back a couple of years but

Then I'd add in this year, when he came back in the February, March time, I think, and they had an amazing run and got themselves out of trouble and kept them in the division. But Neil did that on his own with his team around him. Now, all I do know, and I don't know if this is right or wrong, but I know Steve Gallen come in as a director of football in the summer.

Whether there's been any conflict with that, I don't know. Neil gets quite spiky sometimes. I know Neil well. Not to go out with, but I've chatted to him on regular occasions when he was Jindal manager and Millwall manager.

And I think he takes it quite deeply, you know, takes the criticism from his own fans because he has a really big prestige at the club as being the all-time leading goal scorer. So if it turns a little bit, look, you're never going to get away with if some of your fans are fickos. You know, you're never going to. I don't know why Neil would have said that.

I don't really believe he thinks that. I just think in the heat of a moment, he's reacted because there was a few grumbles. It wasn't booing. It was a few grumbles. It started at Oxford away the previous week where they drew 1-1. They conceded a late goal and it sort of started there. And then obviously the day against Coventry, it was a tribute to John Docherty and all what has happened there. And there wasn't any rumblings at all. And I think...

Neil just doesn't want to overstay his welcome with the club because of his status at the football club. Weren't they talking as well about the manager not having input in the transfers? Yes, well, that's why I mentioned the director of football. Yeah, and they were talking about the manager having no input

I thought well you know or maybe he's been told what they're going to be doing in the next January transfer window and I thought well I don't fancy that much and I don't fancy being responsible for it I mean I don't know I don't know if that was you know a strained relationship but some managers don't like somebody who's really deciding their future and giving them players that they necessarily might not necessarily want but

It's a tough one. I knew they'd lose last night off the back of what had happened at the weekend. Yeah.

And also keeping him in charge for a couple more games as well, even then saying he's going to step down afterwards. A really remarkable situation at Millwall. We'll have to leave it there, chaps. You can't all jump in and say, can I just say one more thing? No more things to say. No more things to say. No more things to say, but it has been absolutely fascinating. Thank you very much for joining me, Martin Samuel, Tony Cascarino and Johnny Northcroft. Thank you too for listening. We'll be back on Monday. We'll see you then.