Predictions for 2025 and are Manchester United in a relegation fight?
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Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. Well, 2024 just couldn't help itself. We just had to have one more round of madness in the Premier League, didn't we? Manchester United lose again, this time 2-0 to an increasingly impressive Newcastle United, as Ruben Amorim admits he's embarrassed at being United's coach at the moment.

Elsewhere, Ipswich complete a brilliant year with a 2-0 home win against Chelsea. Villa produce a thriller against Brighton. And also on today's show, we'll talk Liverpool, Manchester City, Tottenham and Nottingham Forest. Joining me, Tom Clarke, for all of that, we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd.

The football reporter who covers the North West and the Midlands, it's Charlotte Dunker. And the former footballer turned journalist, Gregor Robertson is here as usual. Team, here we are, New Year's Eve. We're all pumped and ready to talk about football one more time in 2024. Gregor, you're in the loft. You look again like you've been taken hostage by someone. You happy? You all right?

I'm okay Tom, yeah, I'm okay, I'm not a hostage, apart from a hostage to a three week old baby who's not letting me sleep, but anyway, we'll leave that. Yeah, exactly. Are we all excited for tonight, we've all got big plans for New Year's Eve, we've got to remember, we've got to keep the vibes high on this show, because one way or another listeners might be listening to this on their way home from work, on their way to a party maybe, or they're listening to it tomorrow when they might have some sore heads. We're all buzzed for tonight, what have we got planned? Alison, are you hosting a nice party of some kind?

Oh, you know me too well, Tom. I've got family staying, so I've built a big dinner party around it. So when I finish here, I have to dash to the fishmongers and hope there isn't a huge New Year's Eve queue. Surely you can skip the queue. Do you not give it the old, do you not know who I am? I

Oh, it's the lady with the mad flags outside her house. Let her in, let her in, let her in. Who ordered 12 lobsters. Yes, exactly. 12? Come on, Gregor, it's 20. We know it's 20. I'm going to brush past the fact that me and Gregor didn't get an invite to that party. But anyway, maybe next year. It's not a party, dinner. Oh, it's one of those. Alison's making sure people aren't just going to turn up. She's got me and Gregor knocking on the door at like 11.55. Charlotte, what have you got planned? Mustard.

I'm off to Aldi for my supplies rather than the fishmonger. Yeah. Quite different levels of dinner party up here. Listen, there's nothing wrong with Aldi. Come on. No, it's great. Just, I'm going to say it's going to be low key. I say this every year. But my friend recently came back from Mexico and gifted me a giant bottle of tequila. So, you know. All bets are off. We'll see what happens. All bets are off. Early night for you, Gregor, I presume. Yeah, we had some plans in the day, but then...

A kid got chicken pox, not my kid thankfully, but that's the kind of world I'm living in. That's how rock and roll it is. So it's been cancelled. I'm actually quite relieved. I'll make it. I'd just be really happy if I got any sleep tonight. Anyway, move on. Let's move on from Gregor crying about his lack of sleep and let's talk about some other fans who might be upset, not about a lack of sleep, but a lack of points in the Premier League. Manchester United,

Another dismal performance at Old Trafford. I'm going to start by reading some of Paul Hurst's match report from the game as I feel it sets the scene perfectly. He opened with, This is the darkest period of Manchester United's Premier League history so far. The last two words of that sentence are crucial because as bad as this performance was, and it truly was awful, there is little sign that things will get better any time soon.

The margin of Newcastle United's second league winner at Old Trafford since 1972 was only two goals, but make no mistake, Ruben Amarim's team took a real battering here. The first half performance was as weak, pitiful and clueless as any witnessed here since Sir Alex Ferguson hung up his hairdryer 11 years ago. Amarim, the first United manager to lose six games in December, cannot afford too many repeat performances, unfortunately.

Otherwise, his team will end up in a relegation fight. In Newcastle, the Portuguese coach came up against the side with confidence, style and a plan, all of which were lacking in his team. Gregor, as I said at the top, I was thinking about this podcast, last one of 2024, I was like, just when you think you've said it all, you've seen it all, as Paul Hurst says, he's mentioned the relegation word here. I mean, we're not actually considering Manchester United for relegation, are we?

I mean, the fact that we're even discussing that is extraordinary in itself. And you just wonder when the kind of, when the Nadiras, when Manchester United can possibly bottom out. And you're just not convinced that they've hit the bottom yet because it requires an enormous overhaul now. I mean, we're talking about in the TV commentary last night about like just even comparisons with

teams we thought were shocking in the past and this one is worse and like you look through the team and you're looking for any bright spots and you know Ahmad is one but Mazraoui you're kind of really scraping the barrel Dalo Dalo's what Dalo's like 25 and he joined as a teenager and he only could only get in the team when United were really crap like and he's now somebody you're thinking is one of the

one of the players who can kind of hold his head up slightly. They're just miles off it, miles off it in terms of energy, you know, running power. And the more worrying thing really for me is that like Amarim,

could be really really bruised by this and like it might be hard to come back from I know it's far too early to talk about that and he has to be supported and he has to be supported in January because otherwise it really could unravel but it's also sort of slightly worrying to see him talking about his idea as if it's like you know the formation he plays is something he could he's never ever going to move away from when

you feel that there are some things that could possibly be done to shore up Manchester United a bit more and play to the few strengths that they have, which I think are probably in wide areas. And you're playing with a team that don't have any width. Their width are full-backs playing as wing-backs. But isn't that part of the problem with we go round and round in that Eric Ten Haag came in with a way of wanting to play and that in his first season talked about...

well, I don't have the players to play how I want to play. So played in a certain way that was a little bit more pragmatic and a little bit more akin to Ole Gunnar Solskjaer's style. And then after a while, make some changes and then it all unravels again. Amarim's going the other way, isn't he? He's coming in and saying, nope, this is the way, this is the style. And as you say, how far you go to bottom out with some of these players...

But you actually think, and Alison maybe jump in here as well because this is a point that you've made on the podcast plenty with Ange Postacoglu and managers having to show a little bit of pragmatism. But Gregor, just to finish, you think that Amarim maybe might need to start thinking I might need to sacrifice some of my principles here. I might need to think about tweaking my 3-4-3. I mean, just looking at the squad, it seems to me that that's, it feels like they have to play three in midfield because they don't have a duo that makes up

enough of the sort of combination of industry and creativity to play with a 2. I said when he first arrived too, you can get too bogged down in formations and the way that nowadays teams start up in a nominal formation and often it doesn't look like anything like that depending on the phase of play of the game and stuff. But this looks like such a sort of rigid 3-4-3 with no...

No adventure. I said this the other week, every kind of modern successful team, they almost always, when they have the ball and they're playing against an opponent who's dropped off, have like five players across the forward line. Manchester United last night had Rasmus Heuland on his own and Xerxe running around behind them and trying to take up pockets of space. I think he played three passes before he got the hook.

And no one near him. No one looking like they even want to get near him. So, like, you need to change something. Yeah. Alex? He wasn't very... I mean, Amrit, post-match, he's very affable, isn't he? He's very likeable. And it was interesting that Martin Hardy in today's paper says the fans seem to be still behind him.

You know, he's someone if you knocked on your door on New Year's Eve, you say, yeah, come in, have a beer, mate. He looks nice. You know, I like I like I like his demeanor, but he wasn't entirely coherent after the match. He said two separate things. He said he seemed to be saying because English is not his first language. So we have to be generous. But he seemed to be saying I was interviewed on the back of saying I have my formation and my system set.

And I was hired for that. So I'm going to stick to my philosophy because that's why you've chosen me. And then he said, everyone's getting bogged down with my three at the back. And you can do that if you want, he said slightly sarcastically. But I do make tweaks. I do make changes all the time. I do adapt and I do make changes. So is he therefore saying that he has...

an exceptionally flexible system and we don't notice that or is he does he actually think things aren't so bad that you can you can make the tiniest little tweaks and it's going to somehow make his philosophy work because it's in that sense he might be slightly deluded because i i look at him and i i see something quite tragic comic going on you know they've united have had one of the most um

forward-thinking, popular coaches in the business, a coach of whom a great future is predicted, you know, so far so brilliant. And maybe, just maybe, he has the force of personality to handle the scale of the project at Manchester United. And it's been a matter of weeks. I mean, he keeps saying, I've only had four training sessions. It's been a matter of weeks and he's already looking...

far less comfortable in his own skin. He's looking slightly worried. It's like they're sort of killing the sunshine in the man. And it's the enormity of United is bogging him down somewhat. And I think he thinks the only way you can deal with an enormous problem is to be true to yourself somehow. And if he was to listen to Gregor,

You can say, ah, yes, you're absolutely right. I agree with all those points, Gregor. I'm going to have to change the system and the personnel and the attitude. Then what is he? Because he wasn't hired. He wasn't hired on the basis of this team are shite, can you do something in the short term, was he? He was hired because he had a strong philosophy. And that might be the very thing that takes them to the brink of a relegation battle. My only thing about...

about this thing as well as the idea he talks about is that it's not really the sort of idea that a lot of the biggest clubs and the most successful clubs the most ambitious clubs

are really looking for. It's quite pragmatic. So Enzo Moresca joined Chelsea and even if he's playing players out of position or whatever, you still know that they're going to try and dominate possession and commit a lot of players forward. They might leave themselves open at the back, they might concede more goals than they want. Obviously they've evolved, but that's how it was looking at the start of the season. But you knew that his idea was like kind of Guardiola-esque.

His is not. You look at their lineup and he's got probably six defensive-minded players in his team. It's a fairly conservative base. And then, obviously, if you've got the right players, the right kind of players to play in his system, then you commit players forward. And he does want to try and dominate possession, but they can't do it. So it just all seems a bit confused. The whole idea seems confused. Yeah.

One of the main principles of the way he wants to play, though, is having wing-backs, isn't it? And if you look at the calibre and the talent of the players that he's got, he's playing proper full-backs as wing-backs. So like you said yesterday, Hoyland was on his own, but that's because the mindset of the players that he's got playing at full-back is to defend. They're not getting forward like they should. So I think...

going forward to January, that's where they need to strengthen. But also, I think all this talk, and there has been rightly talk about the same way, but we talk about Postacoglu, why is he not changing his system? These players, as a squad, are not good enough. If you look at the squad

the talent in that team. It's just not there. You can put them in any formation that you want. They're a mid-table side, the way that if you look at the, if you compare their squad to other squads like Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, Manchester City, even Nottingham Forest, Aston Villa, Manchester United's squad is not on a level of those teams. So I think you look at them and we talk about

The players are being given this excuse to hide behind a system that they're not used to playing in this system. They were used to playing in some system that Eric Ten Hag had. They weren't good enough in that either. I just think...

I think our level of expectation of Manchester United has slowly gone down and down and down and down. I don't think any of us thought we'd be sat here talking about them in 14th and relegation. But the reality of it is maybe 9th, 10th is where they should be aiming to get. And the talk of Champions League is way beyond. So I think with Amram as well,

he needs to be judged next season. I heard someone last night suggest that maybe he should get sacked and I thought, personally, I can't go through another managerial sack this year. It's too much to cover. But secondly, I just thought, he's been here two minutes. He needs time. I don't

none of us realistically think they're going to go down. Even if they do just battle to survive and that is their plan this season, give him the summer, give him time to embed his ideas, whatever it is, get better players in different players and then assess him at this stage next season. I just think he's been thrown in massively at the deep end and at the minute, I don't know, he just looks a bit out of his depth, doesn't he? Charlotte, I just...

Sorry, go on. Alison, just one second. I just wanted to ask Charlotte, just to place us in the context of some of the things Greg is talking about, and I want to come back to some of those points, but just in terms of just talking about these players and they're not good enough and they need to strengthen, just what's the reality of that position that Manchester United are in? In that January transfer window is about to open, you talk about giving him a season, giving him a summer. We're not in a world in which Manchester United can make the kind of wholesale changes that maybe the fans are looking at. And as you're saying,

Ruben Amarim's system would work great if he had two world-class wing-backs. Two world-class wing-backs cost at least £100 million combined. What is the reality of the situation they're in, just when it comes to transfers? Because I think that's an important underlying thing to what we're talking about. The reality is they don't have a lot of money to spend. I was speaking to people when the news broke about Sir Jim Ratcliffe setting tickets for £60 a ticket and the uproar after that.

And he did an interview with the fanzine United We Stand. And a lot of the decisions that are being made are because of the financial situation that Manchester United find themselves in. They don't have a lot of money to spend. So you're right in terms of

If you looked at the squad and you look at, so wingbacks would be the priority to get them playing the way that Amarin wants them to play. But 100, 150 million, have they got that money to spend in January? Have they got that money to spend in the summer? They're going to need to sell a lot of players. And if you look at the quality of the players within that squad, who's going to want to buy the players for the amount of money that Manchester United need and would want to sell them for?

So they're in a really difficult position. Marcus Rashford's obviously their biggest asset.

But if you're a buying club and you know the situation that he's in now in terms of he's out of favour, how you could really try and haggle the best deal possible to get him. So I think it's going to be an interesting window because they really need to bring in players to benefit the system. Because clearly, as we've seen in the first few weeks, it's not quite working.

Yeah. Sorry, Alison, come back in. I just wanted to, because we're talking about all these changes, I think it is an important thing to make clear what position United are in when it comes to selling and buying players. But you wanted to come in on something Charlotte was saying. Yeah, no, we're talking about the state they're in. But I mean, I wonder how good Amarant is at man management. We've had the Rashford...

I don't know if I want to call it a debacle, but it's not going well. And we have him hauling off Xerxe after... How many minutes was it? 33. 33 minutes. I don't know. I don't know if that's the right way to go because I suspect if you're playing for a big club and it's not going well, you're probably as vulnerable as any player in the division. There are teams...

with far less resources and huge injury crises, but they're not limping along. They're doing really well. And if you boil it down, boil it down to how they're being managed and coached in adversity and not dwelling on the problems. Is Amarin the right man for someone for whom the questions are always about the big macro problems and the micro problems and then trying to introduce a new system?

If you're going to deal with those three things, you have to be really good at taking players with you, don't you? And I don't, I mean... His honesty was quite kind of admirable at the start and outset, and he's a good communicator. But even the fact that last night, he quite clearly, purposefully had a line, which was, Newcastle are a better side than us. I think that was quite jarring as well. Like, you know, some people might go, yeah, that's obvious now, but...

I don't think we've really heard Eric Ten Hag even though he sounded delusional at the time but saying just explicitly they are a better team than us Manchester United manager saying Newcastle are a better team than us I was surprised and he kept trotting that line out so I agree I agree with what Alison's saying the players hearing that after how long has he been in six weeks two months

It's not kind of Mr Motivator. Well, no, it's interesting you introduced that point there, Gregor, because if you remember 24, 48 hours ago, this match was being billed as one that was potentially going to be a banana skin for Manchester United. Everyone was saying, oh, Newcastle are in a great place. They're looking athletic. They're playing with freedom. They've got energy. They've got confidence.

They're not the sort of team, even though they have a bad record at Old Trafford, they're not the sort of team a stodgy United want to be facing now. Now, normally, when you get that sort of negative hype before a match, you know, it's proverbial. The manager sticks those words up on the dressing room wall and says, look, this is what people are saying about us.

Newcastle are nothing. We're the mighty Manchester United. We'll show them. And yet it went exactly to script. I don't think I've seen a game fall into the pattern that anybody

that everybody was predicting. I mean, it was... I don't know, Alison. It was a parody of what the game was supposed to be, almost. It was that perfect. Yeah, I don't know. I think West Ham at home to Liverpool was up there in terms of games that I could see coming an absolute mile off the other day, but we'll come to that in a second. Charlotte, just to finish on United, because Alison and the guys, Greg, have introduced the points about Rashford and Xerxe and this idea that we have spoken about

day to day about Amarim in his press conferences and he's great for us as journalists and reporters and editors and like oh he said something else really interesting he's really talked really well about this

What does that maybe mean for the players? And also just to finish a little bit on the situation for Marcus Rashford, because I was thinking last night, I mean, as PR exercises go, this guy is looking better and better with every time he gets left out because he's been dropped and they've been completely rubbish. I'm thinking at what point does he throw him on and go, go on Marcus, please run at the defence, make something happen. I think with the Rashford situation, I,

There's a lot that Amarim clearly isn't saying. He's sticking to this line that he's not being shown something that he wants in training, but he keeps mentioning other stuff as well as in terms of lifestyle. He mentioned clothes and then said he didn't specifically mean clothes. So I think he's not being as transparent with that. And there is a clear, obvious reason to him why he has been left out of the squad, because

So if he then goes and puts him straight back in and he's seen no change to whatever it is that he doesn't like,

then there was no point doing it in the first place. So he's sticking to his guns on that one. He did the same with Garnaccio and then saw the reaction that he wanted in his presser after that. He said he was really happy that Garnaccio was upset because he got the reaction that he wanted. Clearly from Rashford, he hasn't got the reaction that he wanted, which could backfire. His brother actually put a really interesting caption on Instagram last night. This is Marcus Rashford's brother. Marcus Rashford's brother who represents him

The caption was, "My missus told me to go and enjoy the game with my friends as life comes around fast and I will miss these moments."

Well, there you go. On the eve of the January transfer window opening. So that's just adding more fuel to the fire. I think he's probably going to be one of the most talked about players again for the next month while the windows open. Whether people agree with how Amarim's dealing with it or not, we saw at Ten Hag do it with Jadon Sancho. We all know how that ended up.

But you're right in terms of Manchester United's biggest problem at the moment. Everyone's looking at them defensively, but if you look around the teams around them, they've probably conceded a similar amount of goals, but offensively they are atrocious. They can't score. So,

You've got Marcus Rashford in the team, but then Marcus Rashford has not been very good this season either. So everyone's sitting there saying, let's throw him in and he can suddenly score a hat-trick and win these games. I think you can probably count on one hand the amount of influential performances he's probably had in this calendar year, not just in this season, in 2024. So they're lacking something drastically in attack there.

But it's all right because they've got Liverpool on Sunday. So, I mean, it's going to go absolutely fine for them, isn't it? Well, I was going to say we're going to end the show by talking about our hopes for 2025. I'm not sure what Manchester United fans are going to be with Liverpool on Sunday. And then they've got a little, you know, little FA Cup third round tie against Arsenal. So, you know, maybe I think it might get worse before it gets better for Manchester United. Gregor, just a final word on Newcastle. Newcastle United fans perhaps delighted to be in the category on a football podcast.

of we need to quickly talk about Newcastle because they're the good team not the bad team that we're focusing on four wins on the spin I was speaking to Martin Hardy before this game about all these you know these great players we've just been talking about Manchester United and a lack of quality Anthony Gordon Alexander Izak Tonali all these players would walk straight into the Manchester United team it's looking good for Newcastle as we head into the new year yeah they were outstanding I mean the

Tenali and Bruno just completely controlled midfield with both industry and flair and Joe Ellington as well. That is a really formidable trio in midfield. Gordon was on it in the first half in particular and you get a good relationship with Hall as well, the full-back. And Isak is an absolute star, he's got a bit of everything.

Yeah, the thing they always, whenever you see a Newcastle player interviewed and they're talking after a game or before a game, they always talk about when they play. They use the same word. They all use the word intensity. Whenever they play at the intensity they can and they know they're capable of, they know that they are a match for any team. And I think that's fundamentally true. They are a really, really aggressive, in-your-face team.

and at times dynamic team. And when they play like that, when they're playing as they are at the moment, they're going to be competing for the Champions League. So if they can maintain this form, then they're absolutely in the race for the Champions League once again.

An impressive end to 2024 for one of the Uniteds in the Premier League. Let's finish with another team who've had a brilliant, brilliant year. Ipswich Town beating Chelsea 2-0 last night. A brilliant performance, particularly from Liam De Lappe, just after I've taken him out of my fantasy football team. Cheers, Liam. Thanks very much. I'm not sure it was a penalty, though. A little bit of a soft one, that. But 15 points now from the first half of the season, Gregor. They've given themselves a real chance of survival, haven't they?

Yeah, I think out of the... Personally speaking, I think out of the three promoted teams, they've probably got the best chance. Some people think Leicester still have a chance, but I think...

Ipswich have always kind of there's only been a few anomalies there's always been pretty low margin games or defeats they've often conceded late goals that have cost them points Aaron Muretch has been a disaster signing I think to be blunt about it and he was out of the team in this game and Christian Walton who came in played really well made some big saves I'd be amazed if he doesn't continue because Muretch has cost them goals he's cost them points I think they could have been out of their bottom three if it wasn't for

for some of those mistakes but they have they have a kind of a solid foundation and in De Lappe when he's on song like that he's just an absolute battering ram and like unplayable almost at times so it was interesting too you know him former Man City player it's been a kind of common theme of the season isn't it Omari Hutchinson as well who scored the second

We're going to talk about Morgan Rogers in the second half of the show as well. They're scattered across the Premier League, aren't they? Yeah, and probably a few people at their former clubs looking wistfully on thinking, we made a mistake there. The thing that will be interesting with the lap is that Manchester City reportedly have a buyback clause. And even if they bought him back, there'd be probably some profit to be made if they wanted to sell him on. But us things stand.

That could be an interesting one in the summer. Yeah, Ipswich fans are delighted to keep holding for as long as possible. Tom Allnut writing from this game, Alison, talking about a reality check for Chelsea and Enzo Maresca. Enzo Maresca would probably say, no, it's not a reality check for me. I've been telling you for ages that we're not in the title race, but a reality check for us, perhaps on this podcast in recent weeks when we've been getting carried away with their admittedly brilliant start to the season. But only one point from the last three games perhaps says...

where they're at as we head into the new year? Well, I'd love to do an experiment where everything is exactly the same, but Enzo Maresca says all the way through, I think we can challenge for the title. I have faith in my team. I think we've got an amazingly assembled squad. I have depth. I can rotate. I have a strong philosophy. I

We know who we are now and we are going to put pressure on Liverpool and Arsenal and Forest and do not write us off. If he'd said that, if everything else was the same, would they have had this blip over the Christmas period? Because it does feel a little bit like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me. And it gives the players who are young, as we've discussed many times, it's a young team,

It gives them a subconscious excuse, I think, not to look like world beaters. It gives them an excuse to be the first team to give Ipswich Town a home win. That's unacceptable, I think, if you're Chelsea. And, you know, it's a heavily rotated team.

which is obviously his shtick, Maresca. He's got it down to a fine art in terms of rotating for the Europa Conference League. But that's completely different because the Conference League is, I mean, they're so far and away the biggest club in that competition. They could accidentally win that without knowing how they did it. You know, it's just...

It's not the same demands at all. How you rotate over a packed schedule in the Premier League is not the same. And he's got it slightly wrong. You know, they're clearly not the machine we thought they were because by making changes, he's weakened them and weakened their resolve. And I do wonder if it's about attitude. And, you know, teams...

Make those top four, top five places because of momentum and a sense of self and a sense of building on what they're doing right. So that you just sort of create something.

it gets slightly better as each match goes on because it's you've got so much to draw upon and if you if you keep making changes that that stutters slightly yeah so I mean they've won eight games in a row I think before this the fact is like they are young and they're even the best teams I mean Liverpool's best run wasn't much longer than that so

My only problem with that is he might be saying something different behind closed doors too. Martin Samuel wrote a column saying something similar a couple of days back that maybe they're kind of being definitive about it and saying we can win the league, we'd be the best way forward. But he might be saying to them behind closed doors, guys, we can do something here. Also, some of their best players haven't been rested and changed.

Yes, they have in Europe, but over this busy period, I think that's probably told as well. Yeah, one thing I'm for sure, Gregor, is that after Alison's comments about Ruben Amarin and Enzo Maresca, there's going to be a rousing New Year's toast in the Rudd household tonight about hopes for New Year, something nice and positive to get the family all G'd up. There's loads more to come in the second half of the show that's going to get us G'd up, I'm sure. But it's time for a little break, which means it's time for the final quiz question of 2024. And it's a cracker.

Who am I talking about when I say a former footballer from South America who made more than 300 appearances for Newcastle and also played for West Ham, Aston Villa, Leicester and Hull City? Find out after the break.

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Find a shoe for every you at your DSW store or DSW.com. Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clarke and I've got Charlotte Dunker, Alison Rudd and Gregor Robertson with me and they're all scratching their heads for a little while until Gregor Robertson finally came up with the answer which was...

Norby Solano. Norberto Solano. Yes, that's right. The former Newcastle legend, cult hero, who features in Bill Edgar's excellent article on the Times website now, which is a bit of a stats epic, all about Mo Salah's amazing season and is in a chart about the fewest games it took to reach 13 assists, 20 games for Norby Solano, 18 for Mo Salah, but Mo Salah out in front doing it in just 15 games. Loads and loads of great stuff to read on the Times website, including...

A match report from Villa Park by Charlotte Dunker about Aston Villa 2, Brighton 2. A result, Charlotte, which isn't quite what either manager hoped for, as you wrote in your report, but maybe slightly this game sums up their seasons at the moment. Yeah, definitely. I think in the past, recent past, we've become used to them both flying a little bit higher up the table, but

Like most of this league, they've been inconsistent so far this season. I thought Brighton started stronger. They obviously took the lead and deservedly so. But then Villa got back into it via that penalty. I thought really interesting. Unai Murray. So John Durant got sent off in the last game for that stamp in the Newcastle game, which Villa were absolutely furious about because they appealed it and were told no.

under no circumstances would it be overturned. So we got that three-match ban. And then Monchi and Damien, so the sporting director and the football director, both took to social media to say what a disgrace the decision was. Normally you don't see people that high up at clubs speaking out about refereeing decisions. And Unai Emery in his programme notes went on this massive rant about VAR saying they don't go to the screens often enough. They need to use VAR more, which I don't think I've ever heard any manager say.

So when they had a double VAR decision, he's going absolutely mental on the touchline. And I thought, this guy is not going to make it to 2025 if they don't, if Craig Pawson doesn't get sent to the screen for this decision. First one he didn't, second one he did. And then Villa got the penalty, which sort of swung the momentum in their favour. But I think credit Hursler because it was a triple change. I think in the 59th minute, he changed the front three behind Hursler

Gio Pedro and it totally changed the dynamic of the way that Brighton were attacking gave them the impetus and if anyone was going to go on and win it probably would have been them both managers came out and said they deserved to win I think probably a point was fair and it was 9th v 10th and it sort of felt a bit 9th v 10th it was lacking quality in certain parts and

they were good moments but still great fun yeah I mean I thought Brighton's second goal with that kind of flick to assist for João Pedro beautiful the assist was great the finish was fantastic to be fair to be fair from Tariq Lamptey and there were some really good moments from both teams but I think especially with Villa I watched them more because I cover one of the teams many teams I cover and

I think that they're lacking consistency over 90 minutes. We've seen them maybe last season where they could sustain a performance for 75 minutes. I think we're only seeing it in fits and starts. And there was a stat where they've conceded 11 goals in the last 10 minutes of the game, which is the league highest score.

So is it a mental problem? Are they switching off? I just don't think they're able this season to maintain that high level of performance across the full 90 minutes. And that's what's costing them. Defensively, they just don't look as strong as well, I think,

In January, they possibly need a right back. Konza's playing there. He looks a lot better centrally. So I don't think there's any reason to panic. I think as well that Villa aren't that far off the top four as well. And doing well in the Champions League as well. Yeah, and Emery said they've got 29 points. That's 10 points worse off than they were at this point last year. At this point last year, they had 10 points more and were only three points off the top.

went on to finish fourth. But Emery genuinely seemed quite pleased in his post-match and said, 29 points going into the new year, like plenty to build on. And to be fair, to be still within the touching position

of those European spots having not been they didn't win for the whole of November having not played that well in parts is probably why he's so optimistic about it yeah just a quick word on Ollie Watkins obviously an amazing season last season culminating in kind of by the end of the Euros people saying he should be starting for England ahead of Harry Kane yeah

Does his season a little bit embody Villa as well in that perhaps teams are very, very conscious of his threats and his abilities and are maybe slightly cancelling him out of the game? Obviously, he gets the goal, takes the penalty really well. What was his performance like overall? Is he finding that he's maybe hit the top of where he's at now and he's having to work out, oh, actually, everyone realises how good I am now. This is the next level I have to go up again now.

there are a couple of moments where you thought Ollie Watkins last season would have scored that especially that it was the last kick of the game there was a corner and it fell to him and Una Emery literally fell to his knees and headbutted the floor and

in the dramatic fashion that he does because that was the chance to win it. And you just thought Watkins, when he was flying last season, that Ollie Watkins in that form scores it. But I think you're right in terms of it's been very up and down. I don't think he's been terrible, but he's not been consistent the same way. Morgan Rodgers has been the standout for Villa this season by far. The rest of them,

They've had some really, really good games, but then they've had some games where they've just been a bit mediocre. And I think maybe last year, that's what they didn't have. All the players stepped up and they were consistently 7, 8 out of 10 every single week. And I just don't think they've had that this season. Watkins is definitely one of them. What I want to chat to you about, Charlotte, is what's the...

Whenever I see Villa, there's always a tiny part of me that feels a bit sorry for Emery because of the juggling act. Champions League and Premier League and expected to do well again in the Premier League. That's asking a lot of any club. But Villa don't strike me as having the depth of squad to do that well.

properly, no matter how good a coach he is. Does any of that seep out when you're there, that sense of he's also almost being asked to do too much, really? But I think that part of that is off his own doing, because when he took over, obviously they were tipped to go down. Then he got them into Europe. So I think that level of expectation has risen so high. And then

No one seems to, like you say, take stock and be like, okay, well, this is the squad that we've got. And now we're expecting them to compete in Europe's elite competition that they've never competed in before, as in the new Champions League. Obviously, no, they won the European Cup last year.

back in the day and also to maintain that level in the Premier League which we saw which is what Newcastle struggled with wasn't it and it was put to them about them doing a Newcastle is your league form going to struggle and

In the summer, they seemed quite happy with the business that they'd done. But you're right in terms of when you look at the bench, there definitely seems to be a squad in terms of a first team 11 and then the squad players to make it up. They've had injuries as well, like any other team, but...

I think maybe they need another couple of good windows to really have a strong enough squad to be regularly competing in Europe and the Premier League. So, I mean, I don't know if they're able to, but I would argue of all the teams...

that are well run and doing okay. They're the, they're, they're the ones who have the, I don't know, the biggest excuse to splurge in January. I'd have thought, wouldn't you agree? Um, splurge is not an option because, um, PSR, because they spend, mini splurge. Can they mini splurge? So we're trying to find out at the moment if they can mini splurge, but yeah, I think ideally they'd like to bring in a right back and then a

someone else in the forward line. Duran obviously had a really good start to the season. He's dropped off a bit. Ollie Watkins, like we said, has been inconsistent. They were looking for someone who could play across the front line in the summer, but they're the players who cost the most money. And in terms of how close they are, they came so, so close to breaching PSR this summer. But all that

to and fro they had to do with Douglas Louise and when it went through and it went through hours before the deadline if they hadn't got that deal done at that exact time they would have breached so they're very aware of that they're very aware of the punishments that are dished out for that so I just don't think there's a market for them to go and spend loads and loads of money so I think it would be

a smaller addition to the squad. But I think, to be fair, it's not a squad that needs overhauling. I think, like you just touched on there, little additions, if they can find the right player, could make the world of difference. Yeah. January 2025, the month of the mini splurge. You heard it here first. I absolutely love it. Let's coin that term and make it part of the Times coverage for next month. Let's talk about a team that are in the top 10

for Nottingham Forest. I mean, what a season they are having. Truly remarkable. A 2-0 win at Everton, taking them to second in the Premier League table. Greg, I'm going to start with you. Your former team, of course, Nottingham Forest. I mean, no one saw this coming. No one...

No one can say that their 2024 predictions or, you know, we're going to end this show talking about our hopes for 2025. No Nottingham Forest fan would have said, I'd quite like to finish the year second in the Premier League and be completely there on merit as well. They've had a brilliant, brilliant campaign so far.

Yeah, they're making a lot of us who do this for a living look quite stupid. Quite stupid? Really stupid? I mean, I dread to think where we put them in our predicted table at the start of the season. I think we might have had them in 17th. Yeah, they were one place above the drop zone, yeah. So, yeah, like...

It's just extraordinary, really. I mean, I always had the fear as well in the back of my mind of what the owner could do to upset the apple cart. And he's, you know, there have been hit moments, like off-field moments and sort of, you know, punishments. He's been banned from the stadium for a spell. He's been in the, you know, getting up to mischief in the tunnel and stuff like that. Neuros kind of be able to

to block everything out. And the one thing that was so important was just a much more tranquil kind of summer in terms of the recruitment and the numbers that came in and the numbers that went out. And it's like,

I still think there's been so much waste in the two and a bit years that they've been in the Premier League an enormous amount of waste I don't think Oh come on, come on, leave it aside I do, I don't think you can throw so many pieces at a puzzle and eventually they'll fit I think that's unfair on Nuno but there's an element of truth in that too that they signed so many players they broke spending rules and Nuno came in it's almost like they did the same when they got promoted

there was a kind of rewriting of the history they did the same thing in the championship year after year Steve Cooper came in achieved something like some ridiculous alchemy and they went on an amazing run and got promoted Nuno's done the same all the credit is with Nuno here he's you know he's doing things differently too the

one of the lowest percentage of possession in the league so dynamic and like threatening on the break and Wood is playing the season of his life and you know the goal his first goal was brilliant you know just like Gibbs White who is like so important for them as well through ball it didn't look it looked like a kind of

Yeah, slightly over hit. Slightly hopeful, slightly, yeah. Not like... It's maybe my goal of the season. Not on a sixpence. Yeah, two headers. Maybe my goal of the season. For every bit of it, the fact that Morgan Dwight has got that ambition that he's going to be like, I am Paul Scholes, I'm going to ping this pass. But it's slightly, slightly over hit, slightly too hard. But then Chris Wood manages to turn it into something with some like...

superhuman leap and header in the right direction never mind getting his head to the ball Elanga keeps it simple heads it back flick over honestly maybe my goal maybe my goal of 2024 absolutely loved it loved it said everything about what Nottingham Forest is doing at the minute yeah it summed up Nottingham Forest it's kind of like Nottingham Forest as well are doing whatever they want to be if you know what I mean like that Sean Dyche was kind of quite effusive in his praise afterwards about

fair play to them they do what they do very well and you could see that he was saying I would like to be able to do this with my team but they just don't have the same sort of pace and dynamism going forward so yeah it's been brilliant the question is what does the second half of the season entail and

I don't think...

can they make Europe happen? I'm going to go first, set the stall out. I think they can. I think they absolutely can. Maybe make a couple of interesting signings in the window if possible. But if not, just keep the group together. If they keep Chris Wood fit, keep Morgan Gibbs White fit, I'm going to go fifth. Nottingham Forest in fifth at the end of the season. Charlotte, they're one of the teams that you cover. What do you think 2025 can hold for Nottingham Forest?

Yeah, I think the key there, you mentioned January, I don't think the plan is to necessarily go out and spend big because the key to their early success has been the togetherness of the group. And I spoke to someone who was involved with the recruitment and they said that it's been as much about getting the right personality and the right fit for the dressing room as it was filling the gaps that were in the squad.

And that's what they believe that they've got. So I think they're very cautious about upsetting the apple cart in January. So unless someone has the right personality, I'm not sure that they will look to do much in January. Like you said, it's about keeping the group together. And I think they've exceeded expectations so far. But Nuno did this with Wolves, didn't he? He did really well. He got them into Europe there.

Defensively, Milankovic has got to be up there with one of the signings of the season. I think fifth is a real possibility. And with the coefficient scores as they are at the minute, that could actually get them into the Champions League.

Well, if you win at Anfield and if you win at the GTEC Stadium, you deserve to finish in the top four. And that sort of is proof that you're not a fluke. I think what he's doing really well at the moment, Nuno, is harnessing that sense of... It's a fine line, isn't it, between having been a great club and...

and recognising the reality of what you are now. And I think he's trod that line really well. He's sort of encouraging the fans to think big and treat each game like a big team with great ambitions, but without making it feel like the players should feel any sort of pressure on that or they're getting too big for their boots. I think he's navigated that really well. So you get the sense when Forrest are playing that,

this isn't a surprise that they, you know, although they might be going back a bit, but they're used to this. This is their, the heart of the club. This is what they're about is success. And so it's natural for them to,

to behave in a big club mentality way, if you like. So if, I mean, I would suspect there'll be managers thinking, okay, let's give, let's give them the ball and let's see what they can do. I mean, they've taken a lot of coaches by surprise with their, with their tactics and they will be found out a bit, but I think if you can win,

away at Brentford and you can win away at Anfield then you deserve to finish in the top four and I hope they do I hope they do because it's nice it's nice to see a coach who had a failure at Spurs yeah and was laughed at if we remember um why did they go for him ridiculous but actually I mean someone might be thinking oh I got that wrong yes absolutely so a top four finish as long as especially after they've beaten Liverpool Greg a final word from you on Nottingham Forest

I just look at their score now and they've got pretty good depth too in terms of players who are coming in when they do come in there's not really a drop off in performance like Murillo was injured I think in the warm up or just before this game Morato came in and he's been pretty solid when called upon but

They've got Jota and Sosa if they need on the wings. They've both been pretty smart looking signings. Awonye scored, we have to remember, scored the goals that kept Forrest up in the first season and he's barely left any imprint because of Wood, but he's there. Same in midfield, Dominguez and Yates are kind of swapping. I think Yates was suspended. They have got quite a lot of depth. Unless it was like Gibbs-White...

Woods obviously having an extraordinary season so unless there was an injury to one of those two or you do want that duo of Milinkovic and Murillo to be the foundation but there are not that many players you think if they lost him they'd be in real trouble so that augurs well but I still think I don't know whether to say 6th or 7th I'm going to say 6th 6th keep it nice and positive of the two that's what we like to hear that's what we like to hear

I think that would still be an extraordinary achievement. It would. It absolutely would. Now we're going to go quick fire for the next two because I want to make sure we get to finish with our hopes for 2025. Manchester City aside we have discussed a lot on the show recently so this is just a one word answer from everyone after their win against Leicester which still wasn't perfect by the way I thought Leicester and Ruud van Nistelrooy side played pretty well in that game.

But where do we think Manchester City will finish at the end of the season? This will not be the first time or the last time I ask this question, but I have to ask it at the end of 2024. Just a one-word answer. Pick your spot. Gregor, I'm going to start with you. Come on. Can I change Forrest? You're going to change Forrest? I've just looked at the league table. I've just looked at the league table. I think City could be fifth or sixth. I don't think they'll be... I'm not even sure. I'm not sure they're going to make it to top four. But in that case...

There's no teams there that I see falling below them that aren't Forest. So I think Forest may be seventh. So Forest seventh, City sixth. Okay. Yes. Honestly, I think my hope for 2025 is that you lot actually do a one word answer when I ask you. Never mind. Charlotte, where will Manchester City finish at the end of the season? Fourth. Yeah, I think they're going to sneak into the top four in the end. I think they've got too much quality. I'm going to say fourth as well. Alison Rudd.

Are we talking about City or Forest now? City, City, City, City. Oh, have you not done your Forest one? You did your Forest one. You said top four for Forest. I did my Forest one, okay, but I thought you just asked Charlotte where were Forests in. No, no, no, sorry, City. Maybe I'm imagining it. City. City will finish eighth. Eighth. Have that, Pep Guardiola. There we go, Alison Rudd warming up for her New Year's Eve shenanigans in fine form. Another team that we have discussed in depth a lot recently are Tottenham and their manager, Ange Postacoglu. Another disappointing result for them. 2-2 at home.

to Wolves when they were leading the game again just can't hold on to those crucial crucial wins so again just a one word answer will Ange Postakoglu be Tottenham manager at the end of the season I'd say yes Charlotte what do you think no Gregor yes

Well done, mate. You actually did a one-word answer for once. I'm so proud. Alison, yes or no? Ange? No. No. Two yeses, two noes. It's on the fence. Tottenham fans, you can still get in touch with me and have your say. Tom.Clark at thetimes.co.uk. Finish with, wanted to give you a little bit more room to talk about these two because it's two questions around the game at the London Stadium. West Ham,

Alison, you talked at the start of the show about Manchester United against Newcastle being one of the most easily predictable games. I think this game was the most predictable. We were all sat there in the office on the editing floor going, this is going to be 5 or 6, isn't it? And that was at 0-0. And so it proved an absolutely dismal performance from West Ham. David Moyes, by the way, getting an OBE in the Tom Clarke New Year's Honours list this year, deservedly so. I wonder what West Ham fans are thinking about that as Julian Lopetegui looked completely clueless. David Moyes,

Liverpool, absolutely staggeringly good. Mo Salah and the rest of the team continuing to produce the goods. So it's a two-pronged question. Will Julian Lopetegui be West Ham manager at the end of the season? And what month will Liverpool win the title in? Alison, just get involved, all right? Let's just like, let's end the year on a high. Let's not fall out. Let's not fall out. No, no, no, no, no. I mean...

I love to think it was a lucky because actually that really ought to have been eight or nine nil. Really, there were some, you know, there were some sitters missed and great opportunities that would normally be scored, not scored. I maintain that Liverpool, and this is worse for West Ham, really. I think Liverpool only score multiple goals when they have no choice. I think they're very contained economic players.

long view team and they're very happy to win games 2-0 1-0 2-1 it's only when they come across teams that are ridiculously bad that they have no choice but to start giving us huge entertainment and I think that's the we know we know what we know what Alison's hope for 2025 is going to be bring back Jürgen honestly anyway so I think I think I think that

Lopetegui, end of the season, yes or no? Yeah, no, probably not. And I would have said yes, except for just how passive they were. Just dreadfully passive and didn't seem to improve at all or try something new to gain some self-respect in that game against Liverpool. There's something lacking there, definitely. And what month will Liverpool win the title in Alison Rudd?

Mid to late April. Mid to late April. Lovely. She's on board. I'm going to say Liverpool are going to have the title wrapped up by March just to wind all the Liverpool fans up and particularly because I was saying how good Arnie Slott was in about September. I don't think Julian Lopetegui will be sacked this season. I think he will be sacked on the day after the season finishes as Martin Samuel, our colleague, always says West Ham don't sack managers. They part company at the end of the season. Charlotte, what is your view on those two questions? Lopetegui and when will Liverpool wrap up the title? Yeah, I think West Ham have...

Picked up a few more. Obviously, there was the mauling against Liverpool, but Liverpool are so good this season that it's not an embarrassment to get mauled by them, really, is it? So they've slowly been getting better results. I think they're going to be fine. They're going to stay up. So I don't think that they're going to sack him. It's more money, isn't it? And where would they go from there? It's another project one for them, isn't it? So I think he will stay in his job and Liverpool will.

will probably win the league. I think Arsenal will push them a bit closer. I'm going to say April. April Greger. Lopetegui will stay in the job for the same reason as you. I make noises, as Martin always points out, but don't like really sacking managers very often. And if they're mid-table, they'll accept it for now. And I agree, April. I think Arsenal will be the closest, will take them closest, even without Saka. But it'll be...

fairly comfortable. Yes, a nice little flip and question just to end the season, Arsenal fans, before you start writing in in your droves saying the title's not over yet. I absolutely know you could go six points behind them if you managed to beat Brentford. Alison Rudd will be there at that game reporting from there, hopefully not with too much of a hangover. Guys, let's finish with our hopes for 2025 then. We've already talked about some of them, but let's talk more broadly about football in general.

I'm delighted to say that I've already got one of my hopes for 2025 ticked off with Gareth Southgate. Sir Gareth, as I called him all the way through the summer podcast, whoever does those honours list clearly listens to the game pod because they thought that Tom Clark knows what he's talking about. We must knight this man. Sir Gareth. You know Tom. I wanted to shut you up. Sir Gareth. You know because now I can call him Sir Gareth legitimately for the rest of his life and absolutely delighted.

But they take letters from people into account. Yeah, Tom wrote 58 of them. They listen to the public on this and people who nominate and make a case for it. Have you been writing to...

to 10 Downing Street. No comment, Alison. No comment whatsoever. I make all my views publicly clear on here. I'm far too busy to be writing letters about Sir Gareth Southgate. I'm just going to say it one more time. Sir Gareth Southgate. But just to throw two more in there to move it away from Sir Gareth Southgate. Two more hopes for 2025. Greg, I'm sure you agree with me on this and we'll be discussing it on the EFL pod next year, but I hope VAR comes at

Absolutely nowhere near the Football League. Keep it away. Keep it in the Premier League with Unai Emery headbutting the touchline and getting annoyed about decisions. Leave it where it is. And I do hope that Tottenham don't sack Ange Postacoglu because I think he's absolutely great value, not just for journalists and editors, but also his team are absolutely box office. Guys, your hopes for 2025? It can be one, it can be a couple. Charlotte, I'm going to start with you. Mine's a really, really selfish one. And that's that no more managers from my extended patch of six clubs.

get sacked. So that's Manchester City, Manchester United, Nottingham Forest, Aston Villa, Wolverhampton Wanderers and Leicester City. A big ask. I know. But you've already had United, Leicester, Wolves. So yeah, I think you're probably all right. Nuno's having the season of his life. Yeah, so he'll be fine. Yeah, he'll be all right. But you know,

People want Amarim sacked already. Come on. Someone even suggested Pep Guardiola should be sacked. So calm down, everyone. 2025, everyone remain calm. All six of our managers, just to stay, please. Thank you. That's a good one. Alison, your hope for 2025? Well, this probably isn't... I mean, obviously, I don't need to hope that Liverpool win the title. It's looking slam dunk. It's all over, yeah. But I think people who have listened to this podcast for a long time will know that...

I have soft spots and they've sort of all converged this season. So I have such admiration for the coaching and demeanor and general amazingness of three managers, which is Andoni, Arreola, Thomas Frank and Marco Silva, that I hope that at least one of them can get into the European places. And then I have to qualify it by saying, I hope they can make it into Europe and it doesn't become debilitating for them. I hope they can enjoy it and...

you know, get to a final and show a wider public why they are so astonishing. I also think that at least two of them will be poached in 2025, which will be a shame for the clubs they're at, but they are, they are astonishingly good at marshalling resources that are far, far smaller than practically anyone else in the division. They're great man managers. They're great. They're great to talk to, to be around. They are just,

fantastic and I'd like to see them have some sort of tangible reward for that beyond just staying up Absolutely getting into mentions for some other teams that we've not mentioned on the show as well perfectly done by Alison Rudd Gregor Robertson I'm going to give final word to you for your hopes for 2025 I hope that one of the promoted teams are not relegated because if they all three are then it would be 10 of the last 15

and it saddens me quite deeply that the championship is kind of also being you know a league I love is being broken a bit by parachute payments because if you look at the top end of the championship you've got Burnley you've got Leeds who were relegated the year before last after making a playoff final it's basically the same old story and

I think it's bad for the Premier League and it's bad for the Championship. So concurrently, I would quite like parachute payments to be abolished, which is not impossible. That could happen in 2025. There might have to be some negotiations about it, but I would like that to happen because I think it would improve the spectacle of both leagues.

Absolutely. A nice broad range of hopes. Lots of optimism as well heading into 2025. Alison Rudd, Charlotte Dunker and Gregor Robertson, thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for listening, not just to today's show, but for all the year long. I hope you have a very happy new year. We'll be back just two days into 2025. We'll see you then.

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