EFL EXTRA: Our Friends in the North
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Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. This is our EFL Extra show. Every two weeks we discuss the highs and lows of the Championship, League One and League Two. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today for a special show on the Northern dominance of England's second tier. We have the Northern sports correspondent for The Times, Martin Hardy. Hi Martin. Do I have to speak in a really thick, deep Northern accent today? No.

Well, that is my next cue. Martin, of course, you're standing in for Gregor, who's away on paternity leave. So we've got no Scottish accents, but we've got some good Northern dulcet tones on this show. I think by the end of it, my Northern twangle have gone up even more. I'll be talking like this by the end of it. Thanks very much, Martin. Nice to speak to you. And anyone will understand a word we're saying. There we go. I think some Sunderland fans will be fine once we get to their section.

But you are the perfect man for the job because as we head into another round of busy midweek fixtures at this time of year, we currently have, as we record this show, all six promotion places in the Championship filled by clubs in the north of England. In order, Sheffield United, Leeds, Burnley, Sunderland, Middlesbrough and Blackburn.

All in the promotion contention to reach the Premier League. Very exciting. Martin, you look like you might be an even busier man next year than you are already. You must be buzzing. Stop the season now. Stop the championship now. Let's have an uprising in the north. This season, the nearest club to Newcastle is Manchester City, which I think is about 150 miles away.

you start wondering if this is a socio-economic issue are these clubs incapable of being allowed to challenge in the Premier League which is probably a different issue given that the PSR constraints mean that their turnovers just can't compete but that's maybe a conversation for a different day the six clubs are all fighting to go back up quite fortunate to watch quite a few of them recently and

They're giving everything. Clubs on the recovery route, all kinds of different backstories going on, different managerial appointments, key players emerging. So it's going to be a thrilling, what have we got left? 27 games to go. Very exciting to go. You look at the league table, I still think Leeds, if anybody finishes above Leeds, they will have done very well just for the quality they still have inside that squad.

I think teams have now figured out you can go down from the Premier League, you can sell two or three top players, but you can still keep the core of the squad together and retain a real Premier League element to it. I was at Sheffield United versus Leeds and Leeds have got Willie Notgonotto, they've got Solomon, they've got three centre forwards that you think

in terms of Joe Pirro, Matteo Joseph, who I interviewed last season and I think is the happiest man I've ever met in football. And in the background lurking as Patrick Van Vliet, do you think them three could actually probably do a job at the Premier League, which was the point afterwards Chris Wilder made?

Yes, absolutely. I was going to start with Sheffield United, but let's start with Leeds then because you brought them up and you're off to the big game tonight, Leeds v Middlesbrough. If the stats are anything to go by, they will definitely be goals in this game, Martin. I'm saying that because when we then review nil-nil on the Times website, we know who to blame. But it's interesting that you brought it up there. I was going to ask you this question because me and Gregor have discussed on this show all season that

You know, you look at the stats, 11 clean sheets, dominating possession, 33 goals scored, second only behind Norwich, most shots on target, most big chances missed. It does feel like that Leeds are just a few more points away from being not clear at the top of the table, but looking like the dominant team. And it sounds like you agree with that assessment. I completely agree with that assessment. Yeah.

When covering Sonnen against Leeds and obviously there's the late mishap from Mellie and to be fair to Leeds and to him, they've both recovered very well from what was a real awful moment. But in that game you watch and you're chatting to people around you and you're going Joe Roden, centre half for Leeds United. Yeah.

He cost £10 million. That's more than Sonnen's entire team. And that sort of puts things in perspective. Sonnen's record signing, I think, in the last five or six years is Will Grigg at £3 million, who obviously didn't go very well. And subsequent to that, they've gone in a completely different direction. Leeds have still got players like Junior Firbo, who benefit from that drop down into the championship and suddenly start to look perhaps like the players Leeds thought they were signing. I know Jesse March,

made reference to that when Leeds were on the way to being relegated the season he got sacked. He went, it probably would have done me good and it probably would have done junior Ruta good if we'd had 12 months in the championship. And they were fairly prophetic words in terms of Ruta does extremely well and earns a big money move to Brighton. There's just that much quality through their team. And also they have a manager that understands this division very well. And in a big interview with him at the end of last season,

He very much stressed, my career was not supposed to be back in the championship. He's not an arrogant man. I really like him. I like the way he plays football. It wasn't a sense of arrogance. He was trying to say, I'm in a hurry to get out of this division. And that is compounded by the fact they failed in the playoffs last year. And the manager, along with every Leeds fan, will not want to go through the lottery of the playoffs in which they are dreadful. So they will push harder to get to the top.

they just have too much quality, I think too many goals. They had a bit of a basketball match with Swansea and you just saw that bit of quality coming through later in the game when you thought they'd blown this. Oh no, they haven't. Here comes Willi Gnotto, who was a player that Everton probably would have paid 40 million for if they'd sold. They have just the greater depth and the greater players of a higher standard. You think they'll get better as the season goes on.

Yeah, you touched on something there about Leeds failing in the playoffs. That's the kind of theme with some of these teams that I want to touch on at the end of this segment. But let's talk about the team at the top, Sheffield United. Frustrated on Sunday with a 2-2 draw with West Brom. The draw specialists, of course, West Brom, their 11th of the draw of the season in the league. Absolutely remarkable statistics.

but Sheffield United most clean sheets joint with Burnley on 12 they play Millwall on Wednesday Sheffield United a team that you've seen a couple of times this season what have you made of their evolution a little bit if you like under Chris Wilder take two Chris Wilder at Sheffield United well it actually feels like take three because last season was this blip where he had to inherit a mess really

They hadn't built on promotion. Paul Heckenbottom didn't seem to be pushing them on. Chris Wilder came into his club that he'd left. You know, the man that had stood on the cop at Bramall Lane and was in a situation where he just couldn't succeed. And it was interesting. I like Chris Wilder. I think he's doing a great job this season. But that summer was very difficult in terms of what he had to do. And also with the spectre of a takeover in the background, which is still rumbling on, which is never an easy position in which to manage football.

It was interesting during the game with Sunderland, which in fairness, Sunderland were really, really good and very unlucky to get beaten, that the cop was singing his name again. He thought that's the proof, as you said, either this Wilder 2 or Wilder 3, whichever film we're watching, is working. I think he was right when they lost Leeds to make big of the fact that we just don't have the quality evidence.

Leeds United do but he's making them competitive and don't forget they've had two points taken off them as well for past misdemeanors so they could have even been a bit higher up the division my take would be if you want it would be Leeds to finish top and I've just been so impressed with the jobs at Sunderland Middlesbrough this season I think they're fighting for the second spot maybe it's with Burnley I

I think Sheffield United will be sitting third or fourth and that's not disrespectful to Chris Wilder because I think of all the clubs up there, they are overachieving. However, momentum is huge in football. Bramallades is such a difficult place to go when the fans are right behind the manager, which they are now. Don't be surprised if they're still pushing for the top two at the end of the season. And certainly if I've made a prediction, it's bound to be wrong.

Well, excellent. As I say, regular listeners will be absolutely loving this appearance from you in place of Gregor. I normally have to beg him for predictions. You're volunteering them without me even asking. Absolutely fantastic stuff. Well, you mentioned Burnley there and I want to come on and talk about Sunderland and Middlesbrough. Both teams very much on your patch and both absolutely fascinating this season. But let's quickly just talk about Burnley and not as high scoring as Leeds, but just seven goals conceded at

Yeah, they did.

It's really difficult, I think, for young English managers because one failure is just like this huge cross that hangs over them forever. Frank Lampard goes back to Coventry and all everybody can really remember is Everton, which is an incredibly difficult club to go into at any period. And also when he went back to Chelsea and went on a really bad run.

When he was at Derby at the start of his career, they were a progressive football team, liked to dominate the ball and perhaps he comes again. Now for Scott Parker, that punishing period with Bournemouth in the Premier League, I was just checking the date before then. In August 2022, he takes Bournemouth to Liverpool and they lose 9-0. Now that's a particularly punishing defeat because everybody will watch it and everybody will remember it and it will always get quoted.

we're what two years and three or four months down the road he's left Bournemouth he's had a brief spell abroad he comes back and he's got Burnley and they've conceded seven goals in 19 games so from nine goals in one game to seven in 19 tells you that guess what

Like a player, a manager and a coach can progress. They can learn. Right, we're not doing that again. This is how I get around that. At the same time, hasn't, doesn't have huge funds to invest. Good bloke. Remember from his time in Newcastle, a very honest player, probably a little bit better than people thought. And when you're watching Burnley versus Middlesbrough on Friday night, it's Parker versus Carrick.

two very clever English midfielders and it's nice to see them both at the top of the Championship looking to come back. It's very difficult for these people when they take a club into the Premier League for various reasons, including finance, obviously. And if they do and they are sacked after 20 games, where do they go? Well, at the minute, both of them, Carrick obviously hasn't been sacked by Middlesbrough in a successful than Burgeon and Creagh so far, but it's good to see them leading teams at the top of the Championship.

Yeah, absolutely. Scott Parker, only 44, already achieved two promotions from the championship with Fulham and Bournemouth. So let's see if he can do it again with Burnley this season. Right, now let's get into it, Martin. Now we're talking. Now we're cooking. Sunderland and Middlesbrough, two of the great stories in the Football League this season. I would argue two of the great stories in football generally. Some play

play some absolutely fantastic attacking stuff, score some absolutely wonderful goals. Sunderland, let's start with them. Much discussed after their fantastic and slightly surprising start to the season under their unknown and unheard of manager, Reggie Lebris. You know, Sunderland, it took such a long time about this managerial process, hadn't it? It dragged on all through last season and then bang,

Out of nowhere comes this guy, but they'd had an amazing start to the season. A frustrating November, though, drawing five games and then losing 1-0 to Sheffield United, but back to winning ways against Stoke on Saturday. Just talk generally about Sunderland's season, what you've made of them, and then I want to ask you about some of their young players coming through as well.

Well, I was naturally going to start talking about them because... Go for it. They are the main thing, aren't they? The youngsters, go for it. Yeah, they are. And the fact that they bring in a coach and it's ridiculed to start with, they perhaps don't quite get their first choice. But this is a man...

who is educated to degree level in certain different capabilities that will help him in this position, has done well in academy football in France, had two years in senior level and did really well at the start as well, has a distinct style.

is prepared to trust the young players. So what's really interesting about Son of this season is, I think the right side of their three midfielders, Chris Rigg, who was 17, and the left side is Joe Bellingham, who's 18. And they are two of the first names on the team sheet every week. And you would never guess they are 17 and 18. And from interviewing Lebris recently,

when they were having the injury crisis, it was, I was talking to Chris Rigg and instead of playing him as the eight or the 10, I said, we're going to play you as the four. And he went, yeah, I've played there before. And we said, when? And he went, well, because he's only, and he went, yeah, he said, exactly. He said, I forget he's 17. He said, some people, some footballers mature at 17, some at 30, some never. And he said he had it already. It was actually for England under 16s. He played in that position. There's real calmness about,

Chris Rigg, really good, good player. But then you go and you think in the summer, Jack Clark is sold to Ipswich with what I'm trying to think, two years left on his contract. He wasn't really pushing to sign a new deal. They get 15 million plus 5 million for a player who, despite signing for Tottenham, has never kicked the ball in the Premier League at that point. And it's despair, but then, and it's a big gamble because the fans have to really buy into it and say, right, we're going to love a player and then he's going to disappear. Yeah.

But they then go down to Sheffield United and Tommy Watson, who is 18 and another local player, is absolutely electric. And Sheffield United can't cope with him. He needs that little bit of end product because he's just so fast. Caused trouble all night for Sheffield United before he was substituted in the 73rd minute. The game at that point is nil-nil and then they lose. But then fast forward to Saturday, scores twice. And to kind of bring that together,

arguably playing better now than they were at the start of the season and I think there's more belief among Sunnard fans that oh this is going to last at the start there was the novelty of we didn't know this fella we didn't expect this we'd lost Jack Clark blame we were top let's jump on board and enjoy it but now but now this is probably where the worry comes in as a fan and say oh dear we might be going to stay here and they're coming through injury problems still scoring goals they're making light of losing good players the

They have a particularly progressive style, as I said. They were dominant against Sheffield United. I was also at Sunderland against West Brom. And, oh, dear West Brom, perhaps the most boring team I've watched. I was thinking before for years, for decades, and I know they had injury problems.

absolutely delighted to leave the stadium with a 0-0 draw and strangely Sonnen and Middlesbrough are both perhaps better when the opposition is making the game and they can use their speed or their intelligence to break but that game Sonnen against West Brom which Lebris made reference to they had to play on the front foot because West Brom didn't have an ounce of interest in winning the match and they were very unlucky not to do that and

By the same token, when Sunderland played Middlesbrough and Sunderland won, I actually thought Middlesbrough were possibly the better team, which is why them two will go so close at the end of the season. I'm sure we'll move on to Middlesbrough. Michael Carrick has this real calmness in result.

win, lose, like the defeat to Blackburn, which the goal appears to have been offside. Not ranting and raving very much. Our methods were right. We still did really, really well. It was a decision that costs us a point, which is annoying. We may have gone on to win the game, but never, ever, ever ripped into these players at all.

Yeah, interesting. I want to come on to Millsbury in just a second, but I just wanted to ask you a bit more about Regis Lebris and, you know, your dealings with him, what he's like in press conferences. It's something I like to ask all you guys and reporters because you guys are out there. You don't know what, you know, we listeners and me as an editor, we're not in the room. We don't get to know these guys as characters, you know,

You know, you've got Chris Wilder, Daniel Farker, guys who have experience, done it all the time in the championship. Even, as I say, Scott Parker. Then you've got Michael Carrick and John Eustace at Blackburn. Names that are familiar to us. And then in the middle of it all, Sunderland manager Reggie Labrie. No one's ever heard of him until this season. Everyone's a little bit sceptical. What's he like in how he's approached this challenge and football?

having to manage all these young players as well, young, exciting players, but with young players comes the challenge as well. What's he like to deal with? Probably the fact that he's joined young players is perfect because if it had been an older dressing room, you may have got a, who's this fella? Never heard of him. A bit more cynicism. Whereby, and this probably leads into a different direction, but

I think from talking to players, the modern young player, they want to be coached. They want to be told, right, what do I need to do to develop my game? That notion of, right, lads, get into them. You should have enough heart yourself. I think that's going out of the game. And I think that's probably why you're seeing some of the older English coaches being pushed to the wayside. So from that perspective, a young dressing room, a manager who is smart, bright, a tactician, wants to develop their game,

I think, let me say this correct, started learning English about two years ago, so his English is really good. He's dry, which I like. He's funny, sharp,

Perfect for the north of England then. Exactly. He's a man made for it. He's made for it. Exactly. Just has to work on his accent a little bit and he'll be fine. But yeah, yeah. And obviously Le Brice rhymes with if you're going on a drinking session in the north, he fits into the Sunderland song. Fits into the song that they enjoy singing. And the contrast maybe between Sunderland and Newcastle is that Newcastle fans sing a song about Sandry Tenali or Leo Lea.

and Sundland sing a song about Chris Rigolo who is a lad who from I think from the age of nine has been in the Sundland Academy a local lad everybody's looking at him and especially Manchester United were very very keen on him

you know, the battle for Sonnen might be, this is going to be a rough January. Can they get through it with Bellingham and Riggs still in their midfield at the end of January? Can they have that discussion of going, you know, I know the model is to sell, but their value is going to go up. Can we go up? Can we see where we can get to if we keep a hold of these players? I think they are fundamental to the development of the team. So they're interesting conversations for the club to have, but

Big turnaround, which is again, one of the press comments where LaBris was getting asked about something. It was about expectations. He went, don't forget we were 16th last season. He just dropped that in nice and carefully. It wasn't making a big fuss. It was like, hang on, we've been top. We're sitting, as of today, fourth. This wasn't expected this season. And he was completely right. It wasn't.

Yeah, absolutely. Loads of fascinating insights about Reggie Librease and Sunderland. And you mentioned Middlesbrough. We're going to talk about them in just a second, but we're going to take a little break. We've also got chat about Blackburn to come as well. But it's time for a break, so I'm going to ask the quiz question. Who am I talking about when I say a former footballer who played for three of the featured clubs today, including Middlesbrough, Sunderland and Blackburn, as well as spending time at Aston Villa, Liverpool and West Ham? A nice and easy one for Martin Hardy. This find out after the break.

Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. This is our EFL Extra show. Every fortnight chatting about the best and worst of the Championship League 1 and League 2. We're currently in our Northern special. Our Northern powerhouse is here, Martin Hardy, talking about the top of the Championship where six Northern clubs occupy the playoff and promotion contention spots.

Before the break, we were talking about Sunderland and you mentioned Middlesbrough. Let's talk about Middlesbrough. Big scoring, Middlesbrough. Or so we thought, Martin. We sent you to watch them after they'd won 5-1 and 6-2. And I rang you and was like, let's get... You need to get down to Middlesbrough. Home game against Blackburn. Lost 1-0. Hold on. I kind of...

deleted that week from my memory, which was on the Monday night was Newcastle 0, West Ham 2. Hang on. On the Tuesday night was Sunderland 0, West Brom 0. On the Thursday night was Middlesbrough 0, Blackburn 1. And on the Friday night was Sheffield United 1, Sunderland 0. Four games, no goals, the kiss of death. I am the albatross. They were...

Yes. Well, so as we say, we're recording this on a Tuesday morning. You're off to Middlesbrough against Leeds tonight. Big scoring sides, both of them. If you're listening to this before the show, maybe just stick a little couple of quid on a nil-nil draw because Martin's on his way. But no, let's talk about Middlesbrough. We were talking in the Southern Press room before the West Brom game. We're going, yeah, Paddy Roberts will get a hat rake. And somebody from Southern went, have you not checked? This is going to be nil-nil, which was completely correct.

The following day was Middlesbrough and their run of games where they had 11 players had been scored three, scored four, scored five, scored six. I'm there scoring none, concede one, lose one. So yeah, the press passes are getting turned down in future, I think. This is the defining night. We need a 3-3 thriller. But yeah, so let's talk about Middlesbrough because some parallels with Sunderland in that they've got some exciting young players and some players that are cat

Yeah.

He was interviewed recently and he said, I've been to watch a couple of Middlesbrough games and he said, what I really like about them is they're clearly a very, very well-coached team. They understand their roles, they know what they're doing, they're exciting. As I mentioned earlier, he's not a manager that

in the face of a result and starts throwing players under the bus. By the same token, he's calm pitch side. You can see they're playing a progressive way of football, which is taking a little while for the fans to understand that the modern way isn't welling the ball up the field as quickly as possible.

His team plays football. You're looking for good young players. Rav Vandenberg is back in contention to play against Leeds. A 20-year-old Dutch defender that they still are kind of going, how do we get hold of him? Which they will expect interest for. And Finnazaz, when you speak to people who watch them every week, they're like, this is such a clever player that they've signed. I think it's maybe 10 championship goals in the calendar year. And if he's in the side, they tick much better than

Clever loan signing Ben Doak. Has he got five assists already? Something like that. Yeah, five assists. Really, really smart player. And I was actually at, in Austria last season to watch Lask against Liverpool where he was given one of his runouts for them. And you could see that there was a pile of trickery in him, but he was going to have to go away and just refine his game a little bit, which is what he's doing at Middlesbrough. Yeah.

You can feel the buy-in when you're at games from the supporters, a bit like Sunderland in that they've been outside the Premier League for a long time. They've had to build, had to change the model, have to get their recruitment much, much more sensible than it had been. It's kind of such a financial battleground in the Championship that all the clubs are pretty much spending more than they earn. So it's very difficult to compete there.

They're getting their models better and you can feel that kind of buzz amongst the supporters that they know they have a chance of getting out of the division this season. And a lot of that is through the work Carrick has done and the fact that he wants to make these players better. And they know that. Yeah. They know that. Yeah. We're speaking of Finnazaz and his assists and Bendoke and his assists reminds me that I was so excited to talk about Middlesbrough. I forgot to give the answer to the quiz question. Speaking of assists for Middlesbrough, the answer, of course, to that quiz question was Martin. Stuart Downing. Stuart Downing.

Stuart Downing, a man who's got many ennui for Middlesbrough in his day. 30 very tense seconds in the North East when I couldn't remember who it was, but we definitely got there.

He said 30. It was more like five. But we'll let him off. Just very quickly on Finn Aziz, seven assists this season. Top with West Brom's Tom Fellows. Bend Oak with five, as you say. Aziz is behind only the championship star, Borgia Sainz, when it comes to goals and assists this season. 13. Borgia Sainz has 17. Just very quickly on Michael Carrick. Tell us a little bit. I asked you about Reggie Lebrie. What's he like? You talked about very calm in post-match presses, not getting too carried away, win, lose or draw.

Does he have the kind of, you know, you as a reporter have dealt with lots of managers, seen lots of managers. He's a player who played at the very highest level. You know, this is a guy who won the Champions League with Manchester United, you know, widely regarded as the player. You know, Paul Scholes said he loved playing next to him. Is this a guy that you could see going, you know, he's getting a really good grounding at Middlesbrough and could either take them into the Premier League or could go on himself? Two things, first of all, just to finish on Finna's eyes.

Quite often, if I'm at Middlesbrough games, I either accidentally or deliberately sit next to Dave Parnaby. And Dave Parnaby was the head of Middlesbrough's academy for years and the man who brought through Stuart Downing amongst others and created this conveyor belt of players from that area who could go on and play in the championship. And as soon as I get there, it's Finn's playing or Finn's not playing. So that's how much he thinks of him. It does revolve around Finn. Yeah, that's how much. And at the same time...

I don't think they want me to reveal every part of our conversation, but he couldn't be speaking much higher of Michael Carrick. And when I was kind of watching the Leicester situation, I was thinking, ooh, Middlesbrough would be happier when that job's filled and that they haven't had the foresight to go, right, who's at the top of the championship? Who's doing well? Who's progressive?

who can make these players better and you probably you would have went Michael Carrick Michael Carrick would have fitted the bill so I think there'll have been relief that there wasn't an approach from that's how highly I think of him and that's how highly I think they weighed him. Interesting very interesting well you talk about Michael Carrick and I'm mentioning some of his former clubs West Ham of course one of his former clubs who knows what could happen with Julian Lopetegui in the future sorry Middlesbrough fans I know Martin shut down the idea that he wouldn't leave but that's the job of a pesky editor to bring back up the idea that he might

Let's finish with the top six. Blackburn complete the top six, as I say, managed by John Eustace. Remember him, Birmingham fans? Sorry, I couldn't help but get that dig in now that you're in League One with my beloved Lincoln City. They won four games on the spin, beating Cardiff, that win against Middlesbrough that you mentioned. Then they beat Leeds 1-0 as well. Back-to-back wins against Middlesbrough and Leeds tells you they're doing something right, followed by a 1-0 win against Hull. They face Sheffield Wednesday away tonight, looking to keep that good run going. Martin, obviously you saw them in that game against

Borough we're talking about it from a Borough point of view and saying oh you've gone there as the jinx but from a Blackburn point of view they'll have been delighted with your attendance at that game because it meant a 1-0 win for them. That's the thing sometimes when you watch a boxing fight as a journalist it's really difficult because you've got to concentrate on both fighters and that's the kind of the problem that game you go and think right Middles we're going to score lots of goals and after 30 or 40 minutes you think in Middles we're not going to score lots of goals and part of the reason they are not is because Blackburn are very comfortable in possession themselves

are playing very well. They're creating chances. They probably could have scored a goal just before half-time. And you're therefore caught, the eye is caught by the fact that Blackburn are not over-rode by coming to Middlesbrough who've scored a hatful of goals and they're going to play on the front foot themselves and squeeze the victory with a goal that may have been offside. But you thought from watching that,

they will be there or there about it. They'd had a little drop off, I think, before that little run, but they've come back and you think, yeah, they may not be a million miles away. I don't think they'll be pushing Middlesbrough and Sonnen, maybe for the second or third spot. However, you wouldn't be at all surprised with the way they play football if they are on the cusp of the playoffs for the majority of the season.

Interesting. So of those big six, then you've got me excited at a tantalizing prospect at the end of the season. I'm already envisaging the feature where we send you to every single playoff game, every single game, because they're all teams in the north. You get to go to the final day of the team at the top and in second, and then you have to do every single playoff match all the way through to the end. And we find out which team you would do jinx and which team you don't. That's fantastic.

prospect. I will happily do that. We need a bit of north in the Premier League. We certainly do. I know Watford fans will be listening to this thinking we're only one point off Blackburn in seventh, lads. Don't get carried away. We're going to get carried away for just this one episode because as I say, we're recording Tuesday morning. It could all change by Wednesday. But I

But I just wanted to ask finally about something that, you know, we've chatted about it before. You alluded to it there slightly with the Sunderland topic. Some of these clubs, you know, Leeds have a bit of a kind of mystique around them, a little bit of a hex on them, the idea that they can't do the playoffs. They can't do this. Oh, it's always us. We're always the best team, but we don't quite get that.

Sunderland are similar, you know, it's always been tough, they've had some very difficult years, now back in the Championship, but even then, oh gosh, are we really meant to be up here? Are we allowed to be up here? Are we meant to be up here? You know, I know a few Middlesbrough fans who were also similar, like, got a bit into the downtrodden ways, you know, us Northerners, we do like a moan and a downtrodden, we like to be downtrodden at times, and I say that because my dad is one of them, but do you think that plays a part at all in this race for promotion, this

to get to the Premier League. Does that psychologically start to come into play for any of these teams? And if so, which of them with the managers they got do you think are best equipped to

Which element do you mean, Tom? As in this psychology that the fans have, some of the fans have, that Leeds fans might think, oh, it won't be us, we can't do the playoffs. Or Sunderland fans, as you say earlier, thinking we're not quite meant to be here. We've lost Jack Clark, we're not meant to be here. Do you think that psychology gets to the players or the managers? Do you think they're aware of it? Not at this stage. Not at this stage. I think it's too early. You may suddenly, if you're a

At game 38, you might be going, right, okay, Leeds are going for second or third place. And we all know that third place means another season in the championship. And that means they do lose Willie Granato and they do lose all these good Dan James, which other players leave. So I think you'll get that then. I don't think you'll feel that now. At the minute, at the minute, where were they? Let me think. Sheffield United were at West Bromwich Albion on Sunday in a storm. Were they tonight? Tomorrow night? Millwall?

Yeah, Sheffield United. You don't have time for thought in this league. You don't have time. Millwall on Wednesday, yeah, that's what Sheffield is. Yes, so you're nearly washed away in the Midlands. You have to go back to Sheffield. Then you have to go, right, how are we lads right now? We're getting on the bus or we're flying down to London to play against Millwall. And there's a relentlessness to the division, which means you just have to keep picking up points. I remember from conversations with Steve Bruce years and years ago,

He says, you'll have three games in a week. You win them, you win the three games and you can have transformed the season from 10th to Sunday, you're sitting fourth. The whole thing just doesn't stop. Sorry to go back, Lebris, talking about playing Millwall away and the fact that they were a much bigger team than Sunderland, the fact that they relied on set pieces. He actually called it that league. He said, when I speak to my friends about that league and he thought that, that, that,

that's because he's adapting going this thing never bloody stops it's every few days we've gone to the game so that kind of introspection you may get a bit more on the Premier League I don't think you have time for that in the Championship and certainly not yet it's kind of we're doing well we're winning sit on the carpet and enjoy the ride

Yeah, absolutely. And you're such a good man, Martin, as I say, a more than worthy replacement for Gregor Robertson. But you've already made some predictions. If I had to ask you to pick a top two now, and we know it's a long way away, but if I had to ask you to pick a top two now, who would it be? Leeds and Middlesbrough.

Leeds and Middlesbrough, there you go. Exciting and perfectly timed because it's the two teams you're off to see tonight in a 4-3 thriller you can read on the Times website later from Martin Hardy, I'm sure. Absolutely fascinating in-depth chat on the Championship. A fascinating league, as Reggie Labrie said, that league, we could talk about it for hours.

I just want to quickly run through a few news stories from League One. Wickham, Wrexham and Birmingham remain at the top of the table, just one point between them. Huddersfield have continued their excellent form under Michael Duff that we mentioned on the last show and are in fourth. But I wanted to mention the club in sixth, Reading, unbeaten in the league since losing to Stockport, who are in fifth. Reading, since the end of October, that defeat came. That good form has caught the eye of Hull, who have taken manager Ruben Sellers and want him to be the man to take them out of relegation trouble in the Championship.

At Reading, meanwhile, Noel Hunt, the former Reading player, of course, he's had coaching roles at Swindon and Doncaster, has been part of the Reading set-up since 2022. He's got a two-and-a-half-year deal started on Saturday with a one-all draw with Wickham, which, as regular listeners of this show will know, and me extolling the virtues and brilliance of Matt Bloomfield's side will know that that is no mean feat. So best of luck to Noel Hunt and Reading taking on that job. Into League Two, Scott Lindsay's

MK Dons have been on an amazing run of six wins on the spin since mid-October to put themselves in promotion contention. And, of course, congratulations to all the League Two clubs with big draws in the third round of the FA Cup. Morecambe are going to visit Chelsea, Liverpool host Accrington, Stanley. No bad impressions on here, please. This is the Northern Special Show, of course. And Bromley only just arrived in League Two. They're off to Newcastle in the third round of the FA Cup. What a tie. Martin Hardy, you'll be there to welcome Bromley

Excited? That is a cracking old-fashioned FA Cup tie, isn't it? Bromley heading to St. James' Park. No, no, absolutely. And aside from the fact that generations of Newcastle fans are scarred by such games and Ronnie will miss out, Ronnie Radford will miss out the middle name he has in the North East amongst Newcastle fans with Hereford whenever that was, 1972, I think.

I remember them losing to Exeter City in a 4-0 replay on a night time when they were in the fifth round in 81 maybe everyone thought they were going to win the FA Cup and I had this conversation with somebody recently I said in 88 Newcastle got the fifth round against Wimbledon and Merandina who we did a big interview with thought they were going to win the FA Cup and in 81 they got to the fifth round and played Exeter and

everyone thought they were going to win the FA Cup. And somebody said to me, why did everyone think they were going to win the FA Cup? It's like, well, they'd reached the fifth round for the first time in about 15 years. Obviously they were about to win it. Um, and on top of that, on Eddie Howe's, uh,

one of the few blemishes he has on his record as Newcastle manager was the defeat to home, defeat to Cambridge United very soon after he'd taken over, which at the time was quite a damaging loss. I think it may have even been cueing Trippier's first game. And there were times the camera called Trippier kind of going, what on earth is going on here? And then obviously lost to Sheffield Wednesday at Hillsborough two years ago before last season having a good run in the competition. So,

Eddie Howe will be well aware of the banana skin element to this game. In fairness, Newcastle, they have cup finals coming ahead without putting too much pressure on him in terms of the league game with Leicester City and then a league cup quarterfinal against Brentford on Wednesday. And I don't think they're far off must-win games.

And I'll certainly put Bromley in that bracket. But yeah, great tie. And you will see if you get to the press box early enough, they will come in the ground and they will stare at these ginormous stands. This is the Bromley players and go, wow, this is what I've dreamt of. A special day for Bromley. And there you go, Bromley fans, Martin Hardy giving you cause for optimism there.

And this, as you mentioned, we're talking about Newcastle, but this is the Football League show. So let's talk about a team who are not in the English Football League, but are lower down in France, because it would be silly for me not to have you on this show and not mention your fantastic interview with Andy Carroll. You went over to Bordeaux. Bordeaux, of course, now playing in the French fourth tier. So that's my kind of link. That's my justification. You know, it's the Football League show. They're lower down in France. That's my link. That's my justification.

my other justification was that it's a fantastic fantastic piece so you went over to see Andy Carroll who's playing for Bordeaux and you went to watch with him in the pub the Newcastle v Liverpool game tell us about him tell us what he's up to tell us about his life in Bordeaux well first of all thank you very much for the kind words on the piece it was one of them where lots of things dropped into place

thoroughly enjoyed the evening I spent with Andy. We are obviously talking about the football league and he says my career when I started to fall in love with football again was when I went to Reading and then he goes to Amiens and he goes to Bordeaux and he says there's too many egos. He's not fighting to say it. There's too many egos, people who don't know what they want to be.

in the Premier League dressing rooms he says where's here everything is very very real and it's all about the love of the game and he says I'm playing now because I love playing again and the one thing that stood out hopefully stood out in the piece from meeting him was just how happy and content he is with life now which I did the newsletter for ourselves yesterday there's a great regret from him that he didn't follow what he wanted to do at 21 which was to stay in Newcastle and to

become any castle legend and play in the northeast for 10 years so we reach where he is now playing for Bordeaux a club that does not have a button to spend to the point where they can't even play cup games at home and

So he saw me on his phone with great pride. They win a cup game, played on pretty much a local pitch. Fans aren't allowed in because the club can't afford the security that would go with it. The ground's not big enough. As soon as the game's finished, the players walk out in their studs and in their kit, go through the stands and jump around in the car park with the fans setting off flares and celebrating. And he's just beaming with joy when he's telling you this. Bordeaux are six times French champions.

I'm trying to think, is the comparison when Rangers went down and had to start again? And it was administration, right? It was administration, finance, and management. Finance and management, yeah. So I think there was a demotion and there was two demotions last summer. So you're trying to build a big club back up. Funny enough, I looked 10 years ago, Bordeaux played Newcastle United in the Europa League. 20,000 fans at Bordeaux saw the game in that group game. So this is a big club that he's trying to do his bit. He loves being in Bordeaux. He loves the anonymity, the fact that

I'm in the taxi going to interview him and I asked the taxi driver, do you like football? And I'm not going to do that again. No, that was really good. I really admired that. I'm the only one on this podcast who ever does any accents. Greg is always telling me off for it. So I enjoyed it a lot, but carry on. We'll leave that there anyway.

I asked him about Bordeaux. He said the people here hear what happened to them. And then, have you heard of Andy Carroll? No. Wow. Wow. This is the man that I think everybody in England would have heard of.

so he slips in the pub we have a great time we watched the Newcastle match by complete good fortune the game is brilliant he talks about Fab Scher being one of his best friends and how badly Fab Scher was treated when he was in Newcastle and how his career was really on the ropes he couldn't get a game there's a nice circularity Scher gets the third goal and it's playing brilliant and

much happier with life and now so is Andy Carroll so no it was great to spend time with him the pictures of him were great when you meet him he's a big big lump of a bloke and he's still in good shape ankle problems behind him

I think he still gets frustrated by the fact that he's front page news. But from so many levels, in a happy place, cooking for his teammates, trying now to kick on with learning French as well at the same time. But it's still a little bit of a struggle. But no, no, a really enjoyable time with him. And it was kind of a bit of a redemption story, playing football now because he loves playing football.

Yeah, absolutely. It's an absolutely brilliant, brilliant read. Search for Martin Hardy's name and Andy Carroll and you'll find the interview on the Times website. I really encourage you to do it and you'll hopefully be able to find Martin's match report from Leeds against Middlesbrough by the time you're listening to this. If you're listening after the match, a big 4-3, 3-0 thriller, hopefully. Paragraph 2, these teams look nowhere near ready for the Premier League, says...

Says the man who said they were going to finish in the top two only 10 minutes ago. Martin Hardy, it's been great to have you on the show. Thank you very much for joining me on this EFL Extra. Thank you too for listening. We'll be back on Thursday to chat Champions League. We'll see you then.